Brian Moran Explains Why Accountability Isn't What You Think

In today's episode , we dive deep with Brian Moran , a return guest , a celebrated bestselling author and a pioneer of the 12-week year concept . How can redefining accountability influence our personal and professional growth ? What does it really mean to hold someone accountable , and is it always about imposing consequences ?

And how can embracing a philosophy of ownership radically change the way we approach our goals and leadership ? Stay tuned as Brian unpacks these questions and many more , sharing insights from his own personal journey that are bound to transform your approach to leadership and productivity . You won't want to miss this , so let's hear what Brian has to say .

Brian Moran , welcome back to Leading People . Hey , thanks for having me back .

Thought it was really excellent , building on all the great work you've done in the past , and it's actually two years since I had you on the show , so it's quite nice to have you back here . But you know some people are coming to this Leading People program new .

They may not have heard your previous episode , so maybe , well , let's start with who is Brian Moran and tell us a little bit about how you got to be an acclaimed author and you've got this great 12-week methodology . So maybe we'll just start with that .

At first I was used to having a lot of resources , a lot of people around me , but if you commit to it and you stay with it , it works out . And it's worked out pretty fantastic for me , I must say so . The first book was the 12-week year . It's in 15 languages , sold nearly a million copies , and our latest book that we're here to talk about is called .

First book was the 12-week year .

There's also a workbook isn't there for the 12 week year , which you , which has lots of tools in it , and you've got a great website as well , so I think people should check that out . Yeah , that'd be great some stage .

Not yet listen to the podcast , so uncommon accountability , uh , so , um , what do you mean by uncommon accountability and what was the purpose in writing this book ?

Most of the places you hear accountability spoken about is in a situation where someone's done something wrong and someone in authority is going to punish them , and that is not accountability . I mean , that's consequences .

But you watch the news tonight , doesn't matter where you're at in the world , and someone will have done something they shouldn't have and someone's going to say , hey , we're going to hold this person accountable , and what they're talking about is they're going to punish them , they're going to prosecute them , they're going to fine them , they're going to put them in

something like that , and that's's fine , right , but that's not . That's not accountability , that's consequences .

So that's often what happens and , of course , if you , if you , if you think of accountability as consequences , at best you're going to get compliance . Isn't that right ?

As an organization then and many organizations do they look to blame people and hold them accountable in a way that is very unproductive and destroys the culture quite candidly .

individuals and organize and organizations , and one of the things that you say early on is that you state that personal accountability is the bedrock upon which all sustained success in life is based . So perhaps you could elaborate on , you know , that whole aspect of personal accountability , because I think that's where it all starts , doesn't it ?

You know , it's not just a question of if you're going to be a leader out there you need to . It's all about , first of all , answering to yourself , isn't it it ?

And so that notion of personal accountability is really the understanding of accountability , not as consequences but as ownership , and it's very . It's based on the notion of free will , choice that we always , always , always have choice .

And so if you , if you think about it , you know , if I , if I hired on with you and you had stuff for me to do , you know , do I have choice in that ? Of course I do . I can do it or not do it . And so if I choose not to do it , what am I choosing ? I'm probably choosing to work somewhere else .

It doesn't make me a bad person , it makes me a bad fit . But there's a big difference you know we talk about in the book big difference between when we come at life as a choose to versus a have to , because when life is a have to , it's very burdensome .

You know , at best I kind of meet minimum standard when I recognize that all life is choice , my energy shifts , and so you know , at the individual level . Really understanding accountability as choice , as ownership , is a game changer in so many ways , because there's this tendency for all of us to look outside of ourselves .

We're waiting for someone or something to change , and when we do that , we're giving away our power , whether it's waiting for over here in the States , waiting for inflation to come down , waiting for the politicians to stop arguing like that's ever going to happen , or or whatever . It is right , that , but .

But none of that we control , and so when we start to look at what we have control over and we take ownership of the choices we're making and we show up differently .

And so the accountable mindset acknowledges the reality of what's happening around , but it also rests on the power that I have choice within that . Now , I might not like the choices I have . Right here , april 15th , you can pay your taxes or go to prison . I don't like either one of them , but you do have choice .

And that's the empowering part of accountability is that , in any situation I'm in , I have choice and recognizing that choice and coming from that place of choice and owning those choices , as opposed to looking at the victim mindset . The world happens to me , things happen to me , circumstances happen to me and I have no control over it .

Today , have you discovered a kind of pattern or something that you say you know there's too much of this or too much of that that seems to be contributing to this , Because it's rampant , it's everywhere you know .

I just think that , you know , nowadays it does seem like it's growing in popularity just because one is , people have never been taught , and the more you experience that , you know if people are blaming you , the natural thing , the easy thing , is to shift the blame . And so that's the game , right Shift the blame .

And you see that all over the media , with the politicians . You see it on social media , Um , and , and so that's . I think that's what's learned , right , we , we , we live what we learn .

And so when you grow up with that and you , you know that if you own up to something as a kid , punishments come and you learn pretty quickly to well , yeah , I didn't , it was Bobby or whatever . It was right it was your brother , it was your sister , it was you know , and so I think it's just learned to be honest with you , jerry .

Stay connected , stay informed and let's grow together because you , you , you , quite interestingly , you take four areas of life and you , you , work through these four areas , which is health , career , finances and relationships , and you're , you're actually quite um open about some of your own experiences , even in this regard .

And that can you make this now , this idea of accountability , personal accountability and holding ourselves accountable , can you give the listeners a few examples of things that they could relate to in their daily life around , maybe these four themes ? Just examples ? They could say oh , that's what he means by holding myself accountable .

But instead of owning it and changing their lifestyle , they pop the pill . And that's the modern day solution , right , just take the pill . But there's any time you're taking any kind of medication there's side effects to that , adverse side effects , and so they start to compound .

And so , you know , looking at your health , judy and I are both cancer survivors and that causes you to really take a good hard look at what you're putting in your body , how you're exercising . You know , are you getting enough sleep ? And it's really easy to not do that , to just kind of go along .

But when you take ownership of it , you realize that your health you know it's that old saying , it's just easy to take that for granted right until you don't have it . And so taking ownership of that means really looking at you know , what do I need in terms of health to perform , to live the life I want to live . And so I started late .

I had my first daughter at 40 . For me to see my grandkids and for them to know me one , I need God's blessing . But I've got to do everything I can too . I can't , you know . So you know , I've got a workout regimen . We eat pretty . We're not fanatical with it , but we eat healthy and we mind the diet that way .

And it's the same thing you know in those other areas as well . Your , and it's the same thing you know in those other areas as well . Your career , you know . I just see people that are stuck in jobs or careers that they lament they hate going to work and it's like well , that's a choice , you know you don't have to work there .

They'll tell you they feel trapped and , again , that's a choice . You can begin to make different choices and set yourself up to have the kind of career you want . And I'm not saying it's easy , but anything worthwhile in life takes effort and and most people they want , they want the um , a certain life , but they're not willing to do the work .

Yeah , and that's when I talk about owning . It is not only owning the outcome you're after , but most importantly , owning what you need to do to create that outcome , whether it's in a relationship , whether it's your finances , whether it's your health , whether it's your career .

If you want something better , you've got to own the actions to get there , the actions that are causing you to be where you're at currently , as opposed to again looking outside yourself and saying , well , it was the circumstances . Yeah , circumstances play a role , but again , the choices you make in those circumstances make a big difference .

It's the example you know someone cuts you off in traffic . One person gets road rage , the other person no big deal . What's different it's how they process it , how they think about it and how they respond to it . So how you think about those areas of your life really have a huge impact on how you show up .

I , I guess , um , and you're also . What's really nice about the way you you've created the 12-week year was you really took that notion . That strategy is about execution and you know it's okay to have goals , but if you don't do anything , you don't . You know you're not going to see any results .

And and what I like about this book is you really take that further . You really take it out there and and challenge people to think about . Are they owning their experience ? Are they owning you know the things that they're doing ? Are they doing the things they need to do to achieve the things they want , right ? Yeah ?

Okay , this is what happened and I want to be curious , I want to learn from it . I'm not fixing blame . You know we talk about how the 12-week year is a guilt-free zone and it goes with uncommon accountability . It's not about blaming yourself . It's about looking back and understanding what are the choices I made in the situation that contributed to the outcome .

So , if I'm experiencing something I don't care for , you know what choices did I make that contributed to it ? Not blaming me that I caused it . I'm bad , I'm evil , whatever . Just what and what might I do differently ? See , that's the future aspect of it . We look back to learn so that we can experience more of what we want in the future .

do the things you want to do anyway . Isn't that right ?

So if we get into now the organizational space on this one , um , and you talked about organizations spending millions and millions and millions and then undermining all that with how they they implement consequence-based accountability , and of course , there's so much talk today about things like psychological safety out there , and and I think what you're writing about here

is is a factor that needs to be considered if you're talking about these things like psychological safety . But if we get down to this notion now from a leader's perspective , and so there's people out there listening to this who manage people and lead organizations , etc . Right , so , so what now can they start to ?

To process , because you , I really want to get into this notion of holding somebody capable . So how does ?

And we're talking about holding someone accountable ? What they're really talking about is when someone doesn't do what they're supposed to do , we go in and we create some sort of um , a punishment . It could be a chewing out , it could be a firing somewhere in between , but but that's the notion of hold your team accountable .

It's get after them hard when they don't do what they're supposed to do . And the problem with that , jerry , is that if you think about the last time that happened to you , what's the natural tendency when you're on the receiving end of that ? Well , it's to make excuses , it's to push back , it's to shift blame , all the things the leader doesn't want .

And so when we hold people accountable in that way , you're going to get minimum performance , you're going to get just enough performance to stop the negative consequences . And the second problem with that is not only are you getting minimum performance , but you're going to get collateral damage because it destroys the relationship .

And I'll give you an example we did a workshop on this with a group and there was a young lady there really , really smart , really talented , and as we were talking through this she said you know what I'm living ? That right now she says my boss holds me accountable and I can't stand him . I do everything I can to avoid him .

I give him the minimum just so he's . You know , I don't have to spend any time with him . And this is a lady who was super talented , you know , and so he was getting the absolute minimum from her . And she , you know she was and , as you might imagine , she was looking for a different position with , with a different company because of that .

But you know she was and , as you might imagine , she was looking for a different position with with a different company because of that . But you know , people go well , that's an extreme case . No , that's an everyday case .

That happens when you try and hold people accountable that way , it destroys the relationship , um it , it really limits the people's ability , your people's ability to perform . So you're limiting the ? Um , the performance of the organization , your people's ability to perform . So you're limiting the performance of the organization , but that's all anybody's been taught .

They've been taught this consequence model and they haven't even really been taught it , because there's a lot to a consequence model that people don't even understand , so they're trying to apply it without even being taught and on top of that , it's a flawed model to begin with . You'll never get discretion or effort with negative consequences .

You'll never get that extra effort and that's what it takes to really thrive as a leader , as an organization is that extra effort for people , and so we talk about you know , stop coming up next .

But if you're going to work here , we have standards . So , as a leader , I'm not lowering my standards for you , but it's your job to get there . It's not my burden , it's your burden to perform . My job is to help you to clarify what's expected . But if that's not something you're willing to do , then you're not a good fit . I mean , it's really that simple .

But as simple as that is , it creates completely different conversation and different outcomes .

And so , again , going to an example from a different workshop , this gentleman there he was a district manager had a number I think 20 , 30 managers with him and he talked about this one guy who started out really great and about two years in , his performance started to drop off and he's been trying to hold this guy accountable for probably 18 months now and

it's a disaster . And so he said screw it . You know , I'm going to try it , I've got nothing to lose . So after doing the workshop , he goes back and he has this conversation with his direct report . He says look , man , you know , part of this is my fault . I've been holding you accountable . I'm done doing that .

It's your , it's your job to perform , it's your burden . Here's the expectation , here's the standard to you know . And it was . It was a really good conversation . But in the end he said what do you want to do ? And the guy said well , you know , I appreciate the conversation , I want to talk about it , I want to talk to my wife and whatnot .

So they got back together a few days later and the guy said to him you know what ? You're right , I've been making excuses , that's not who I am , that's not how I want to show up , and you won't see that anymore . And he literally turned his performance around that week and within I think six months , became his top performer .

Now it might have gone the other way . He might have said I'm out of here , but either way , that's the right choice . And that happened because the district manager confronted him with the choice .

He stopped trying to force things on him and said look , you know you have choices here , but but one of the choices isn't to lower the standard , that's a choice of not working here . So you either . You either choose to do the work and embrace the standard and hit it or exceed it or go work somewhere else .

And so a much different conversation , much different outcome and different for the culture as well .

They they're going to become better managers themselves because they understand that you know if you promise things and there's a performance expected , you have to deliver , and they're able to hold their own people to standards when they get those jobs Right .

relationships differently and it changes the relationship . You know , most , most divorces are because they're blaming each other and they talk to anyone , right and and okay , so what role did I play in it ?

There's loads of those for the reader to go and delve into and some of your own personal stories where you , as I say , you're quite open and candid about some of the experiences you've had in your business and other things , and so I think that that makes the book really readable and so human .

You know , you kind of can read this and say this guy's pretty open and honest about this . He's not trying to come up with some new bs out there , he's really coming , coming at this from a solid place . Um , appreciate that . Yeah , that was my impression . That was my impression anyway , when I was reading the book .

Okay , so , um , coming to the end , if you um , so , if you have , we have leaders out there now , or people who aspire to be leaders , or you know anybody out there who's in the workplace and they're not . Let's put it this way .

One of the things that this is related to , I think , is engagement in the workplace and the money that is spent on this , and it comes down to basic ability to have conversations about what's expected and having people who are productive and enthusiastic in the work , but if you were to come down now and just say to to some people out there , here's two or

three things you should start doing tomorrow or today after you listen to this podcast . What would those couple of things be that you apart from buying the book , of course , but what would those couple of things be , um , that you could say , really you need to start exploring this and you can already start working on this from the get-go .

And it's interesting because no matter how long you practice this concept concept , there's always areas in your life and times when that victim mindset creeps in and so you got to guard against it . So the first step is just being mindful and seeing where you do that and then stopping , pausing for a moment , say is there , is there a better way ?

something happens . I don't like the way it worked out . Maybe it's a conversation with my wife and I'll I'll go back to that , uh uh , later and think through okay , what happened there ? What , what you know ? What did I do ? What could I have done different ? That's the big question .

What , given what happened , given what I know now , what could I have done different ? And one of those things , a couple of questions , are you know , what did I pretend not to know in this situation ? Where have I done this before ? Is this a tendency I have ? And the big thing is , if I had to do it again , what would I do different ?

Because if you do something different , you're going to get a different outcome . Now , it still might not be the one you want , but that's how it works .

And so just kind of this , this metacognition on how I behaved in a certain situation , viewing that from afar , without , without blame , but looking at it and saying , okay , that didn't turn out the way I wanted . What happened there ? You know , what tendencies do I have in those situations that aren't productive ? And and how could I change that ?

How could I do that different next time , so that when I'm in that situation again , you know the outcome's much more positive so you're able to identify the trigger that sets you off and make a choice , right ?

Punishment or penalty is great for stopping something , but it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be replaced with something more positive . So if someone's in a , in a um , uh , a life-threatening situation , you might use that right , but but it doesn't mean that a positive behavior is going to come out of it . So so just let that go right .

Think , think about this . The . The reality is , jerry , can you force someone to do something ? You really can't ? You might create a consequence that's so distasteful that they choose to do it , but that's where all the collateral damage comes in and all that . So really being mindful about confronting them with the choices they have .

So when someone's not performing , what you want to do is you want to have them participate in their own self-improvement . It's not something you do to them . Punishment is something you do to them . You want someone to perform better . You want to have them participate in that process . How do I do that ? I probably lead with questions .

So tell me what happened there . Tell me about ? Are you clear of the standard ? Some of the things we just talked about . What did you do you think led to this outcome ? What would you do different next time ?

Right , those are the conversations that lead to ownership , as opposed to just going in with consequences and saying , hey , you know this didn't work , don't do that again . If you do it again , you know we'll be back here and I'll be , I'll know I'll be punishing you again , kind of thing .

If you want to get involved in that , love that , but we have all kinds of resources , as you mentioned , jerry , so 12weekyearcom so I'll put some links in the show

notes .

And linkedin linkedin as well . Yep , people write you on linkedin . They can always connect with you . They'll find out what's going on as well there . Yeah , absolutely Okay . Well , brian Moran , thanks once again for sharing your insights , tips and wisdom with me and our listeners today . Thanks for having me , jerry , it was great .

Among other things , we'll explore questions such as how does a competitive spirit shape a leader , how do you get the best performances out of your people , and what career advice does he have for us all ? You might be surprised at what he has to say Until next time .