A companion means this deep sense of accompaniment. It's not so much the idea of solidarity that's theoretical or distant, but really entering into the situations and the struggles that our people are experiencing so that we can learn from them, learn what maybe some of the solutions might be from the ground instead of imposing what we think the solution should be and really showing some humility and vulnerability as leaders in this time.
Hi everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. Amit. Welcome back. Thank you, Beth. Always great to be with you. So I'm really excited about the guest we have today. We have Ann Marie Canyo and she is a professor of psychology at Gonzaga and we know her because she is a coach and works with us at Academic Impressions and she spent quite a bit of time at Gonzaga. She was also dean of the College of Arts and Sciences and before that she spent, Was it almost 20 years?
Yes. @ Wayne State served as the associate provost for Faculty Development and faculty Success. And we will talk about this in the podcast. But she's also an author with something exciting coming out very soon. So welcome. Annemarie. Thank you, Beth. Nice to be here. And thank you, Emmett for the invitation. Tell us a little bit more about the work you do and we'll jump in. Sure. As you said, I was for 20 plus years at Wayne State in Detroit and that's really
where I grew up. I feel like I grew up as an academic coming up the tenure track. My work was really focused empathy and building empathy in couples, in families, even with teens having empathy for dogs that they were training in an empathy training program. And I really think that that formed me as a leader and also fed into the style and the way I lead my research really formed me in being able to take other people's perspectives, especially people that I
was leading, students that we were trying to serve. And it has kind of threaded through my who this idea of being with other people and trying to support their growth and well being no matter what
they happen to be doing in and out of academia. And then the other thing I will say too is being a first generation college student and navigating the college environment that way and then also an academic career that felt like sometimes these academic environments are not made don't feel like they're made for the rest of us. That also really shaped me as a leader and what I care about and working toward equity and access in higher education.
You were talking about on the journey and accompaniment and we were just talking about that right before we started recording. Can you say a little bit more about that? Sure. I've come to see leadership, especially in this time, in this moment, as a leadership of accompaniment,
that we really need that. In my coaching practice, when I'm working with people who are managing in the middle, they're trying to carry forward a vision that might be the vision of their institution or the vision of their supervisors, while also
caring for people and trying to bring out the best in them. And the idea of leading with accompaniment in mind and in Spanish, in Latin American liberation praxis, which is a little bit about what my book talks about, accompaniamiento means this deep sense of accompaniment.
It's not so much the idea of solidarity that's theoretical or distant, but really entering into the situations and the struggles that our people are experiencing so that we can learn from them, learn what maybe some of the solutions might be from the ground, instead of imposing what we think the solution should be, and really showing some humility and vulnerability as leaders in this time. So that's what I think of when I think of leading
with accompaniment in mind. The piece that's interesting right now, and we're recording this in April of 2025, and it seems like things are changing by the day, especially for leaders in higher ed. And how is that theme, at least in your coaching practice or what you're hearing from folks? Can you just tell us a little bit more of how that theme is pulling through with the
folks that you coach? Sure. So one example would be a middle manager, maybe a department chair or a dean or an associate provost or a director, hearing from their people, their fears, their anxieties about, you know, is my program going to be cut? Am I going to be censored? Am I going to be fired? Is my position going
to be eliminated? Will there be funding for students? So all of these concerns that people have, and the leaders are wanting to be able to provide answers to their people, and in the absence of concrete answers, because that's the situation we're into sometimes we just don't know. Then being able to accompany people through
that and figuring out, well, what can I do as a leader? How can I communicate with my people so that they know that I am fighting for them or supporting them or doing whatever I can to provide them with the information they need or any kind of concrete
action that may support them. And the challenge is that sometimes these leaders, who their heart is in the right place and they want to engage in this action, are not sure whether to proceed or not because their supervisor has maybe not provided them guidance or has told them flat out don't say anything to anybody because we're being monitored or you know, just a lot of fear based on risk averse kinds of guidance
or absence of guidance. And sometimes there's like no communication at all. And the middle managers are trying to do the best they can. So that situation is fraught because you know you want to do the right thing and you're either being told, don't, don't do anything or there's silence or confusion. And I think that's, that's the tricky place that people are leading from and they have to decide for themselves. And this is what coaching helps is like what are
you willing to do to support your people? What are the risks involved in taking action or communicating something both to yourself, but also to the institution and to your people and to the programs you care about. So it's just a lot of things to be, to be balancing and to really think about and be mindful in this idea of accompaniment. So it's a lot. And I think that's, that's most of the people
that I'm coaching are experiencing that to some degree. Yeah, I mean that resonates for sure with a lot of the leaders that I've been talking to. Ahmed, have you been hearing a lot of the same things? For sure, for sure. I'm curious, Annmarie, if you could say more about how the concept of accompaniment, just practically speaking is helpful in that situation. I mean that's a, that's a very acute situation and it's a very kind of unique situation. Right. When you're being told not to
communicate something and then people, but people have fears and anxieties. It's very relevant right now. Now. Yeah. But I wonder if you could share maybe a broader example that's maybe more of an everyday sort of typical example and how that concept of accompaniment is really, how does that play out in practice in terms of leaders actions or behaviors on a day to day basis? Yeah,
great question. I want to say, well, it depends and like I have 10 different situations, so I'll just, you know, pull out a couple. One way this can play out for, for a middle manager in particular is let's say with concerns about grant funding because that's acute right now. But also it is a perennial concern for people about like what do we do about, is my program going to exist?
Is there going to be money for me to apply? And also for a lot of faculty and for some staff too, being able to retain their job is contingent on them bringing in grant funding. So a leader who is leading from accompaniment will recognize, like people have a lot weighing on whether there is grant funding, what kind of grant funding it is, and whether they will be
competitive to get it. So one way to accompany people is just to actually meet with people who would be affected by changes in grant funding or changes to programs and learn, like, what is. What are your biggest concerns? And even if the leader cannot have those meetings directly because they are. Maybe they have a huge portfolio, maybe one of their people can be that person to meet
with people and hear the concerns from the ground. So I think that's part of it is, are you listening to what's happening on the ground, or are you only listening to people at your level and above? So it's finding a way to collect that information. And maybe it's a survey, maybe it's interactions with people, one on ones. But it requires that you be out there, not behind closed doors, to get that information. Information. So I think that's one piece.
The other piece is, I mean, there's always communication vacuums and information vacuums. That's just a feature of bureaucratic organizations like higher ed. Right now we're feeling that more acutely because of the crisis that people are experiencing. But that's always been the case as well. So being able to manage up and be able to find out, like,
how can I ask the question of my supervisors or. Or ask the questions of peers to get the information that I need to be able to lead at my level, that's another piece of accompaniment. Because it's giving you the information so you can read the reality of the situation and then make a strategic move forward. Without the information, then we're frozen. We can't do anything, or we might make a decision that's not fully informed.
So accompaniment also means it's a little bit of managing up and it's also reaching the people, quote, unquote, below you, to make sure that you have all the information. I think that's a really. I really appreciate the way you articulated that that was going to be. One of the questions I asked you is how does accompaniment work going up? And I think
you shared a very good example of that. I think the more we can, and it's somewhat counterintuitive, but I also think just structurally, with some of these roles that you mentioned, Chair, Dean, et cetera, there's a lot of structural and organizational and funding kind of mechanisms, like barriers to people's success, or there's reasons why you are feeling trapped in the middle between two potentially competing forces, right Deans are a
great example in this country right now where there's greater expectations on deans for growth probably than there ever have been growth in any form. And there probably is less autonomy now that that deans have. So there's, you know, over time, faculty lines are getting centralized, budget resource allocation, more and more of that is getting centralized, even at large research one institutions. And yet the expectations continue to go up. So that's just an example.
I think there are reasons why people are feeling kind of caught in the middle depending on their role or their institution. But I think the way you articulated the idea of how do we better understand the person above us and what are their issues? Because they have pressures and stresses and things that
they are being held accountable for. And the more we can understand that in the same way you talked about, I think, understanding on the ground level what the fears, concerns, pressures, questions, issues are of the people we
are supporting. The more we understand those same kinds of things for the folks who are above us, I think the better we're able to find potentially some both hand solutions, potentially some more novel ways of approaching something, maybe some opportunities where we can create some alignment so that tension doesn't feel so polarizing. Definitely. And even if you disagree, let's say with the strategy or the choice that a supervisor is making, you at least understand the situation a
little bit more. And you can also learn a lot about what they value, which helps you be able to maybe pitch your own idea. So I'm thinking about the person who might want to reach out to their people and say like, hey, I support you in, you know, whatever might be going on, if they can talk to their supervisor and ask questions about, you know, what are, what are your concerns if I do this? Or what are, what are the pressures? Yeah, what are the pressures that are that you're
facing? It helps you, it's a way to gather information, but it also helps you develop some compassion. Also because I think right now, like I see a couple things happening also with, in my work, also in coaching, is that there's decreasing trust and decreasing compassion for
leadership. And on the one hand I understand it because the concern is, well, these people have so much power and they have this title and they're paid salaries that are very high compared to staff, let's say at a particular university. And so there's a resentment that can build up. But it's often also the case that we don't fully understand what some leaders are facing or the pressures that they're facing. And not to say that that means we just let everyone get away with everything.
But I do think understanding like there is, university presidents and provosts are under a lot of pressure and strain right now. So to try to understand what are the pressures that they're facing and why are they behaving the way they are. And I say they. It's a heterogeneous group, right. And there's. We see many examples of different kinds of respons to things that
are happening. But I think there is a. This is where the perspective taking comes in, where it's really helpful to stop and say, okay, I don't like what's happening or I don't like what they're saying or not saying. But let me try to understand why that might be.
Could be that you would develop some compassion, but at least you'll understand so that when it's time for you and your positionality, whether it's dean, department chair, faculty member, staff member, or even student, then you know, okay, now that I understand this is the reason for why they're doing what they're doing or saying what they're saying, now I can make a strategic choice for myself. I love what you're saying because I think it's, it's counterintuitive and.
But it brings us full circle to what you first started introducing your research around empathy. I think it's really, for whatever reason, it's. It's much easier to have empathy kind of down than it is probably up. And I think you talked about some of the dynamics that potentially could be there around resentment or other things. Beth and I have a wonderful colleague, Sandra Miles, who does a lot of work with academic impressions. And she's got this great saying that information that you do not
know is not information that's being kept from you. Like, just because you're not aware of information, it doesn't mean it's being hidden from you. Right. And so what I love about the questions you shared or what a great example of ways that we can be proactive to seek information from those above us or around us. Could be lateral, you know, could be any, any direction. But there is some responsibility as leaders that
we have some agency. We have to go find information or better understand those dynamics that are maybe at play with very complex decisions. There's a lot of considerations that maybe we're not always attuned to because we're not in those rooms, we're not in those conversations does require a different leadership stance. Right. You have to assume that responsibility. To say, I have to go Be the one to get the information. I have to be the one to do some perspective taking and
have some empathy. Everyone from every direction in terms of what? Because you know, generally you think most people are good leaders trying to do the best that they can. But. But that's a different leadership stance. That's not always intuitive. Yeah, I agree. I would just counsel people to be curious. Like get curious. When you don't know why something has happened, then ask why. And if you don't know who to ask,
start by asking your colleagues. When I'm notorious for asking a lot of questions in meetings, and this is true across all the different roles that I've had, I would be the one raising my hand and saying why? What was the rationale for that decision or what information was used to make that decision or who was consulted to make that decision. And I would just ask these questions all the time. And when I became dean, I had a department chair who
started apologizing because of all the questions she was asking me. And I was like, no, I love it. Because sometimes I, for like I'm dealing with a lot of information myself and I'm juggling a lot of different departments and different people and programs. And so I'm, and I'm a human being and
sometimes I will forget things. And so when you ask me how did you come to that decision, that gives me a chance to explain and lay out the rationale and it helps me be a better leader and it also helps me get the information out to more people so that I don't end up in a situation where people are making their own story for why a decision got made or how something got done. So I always love the curious people. But, but it's not based on the
apology that I got from my colleague. I could see like it's not typical in certain roles. And I think that's a, that's a culture shift. We need a culture change in academia where people are allowed to ask questions and not expect defensiveness
from the leader because that's, it's a two way street. Like we need to show compassion, ask questions, but the leaders who do have more power and authority need to also meet that, meet the moment in that way, in a non defensive way, with transparency as much as they're able to, given the information that they're dealing with. It reminds me, Amit, I don't know if you remember this, we were in a workshop once and we were talking about that same phenomenon around getting very defensive
when people are asking us questions. And it's not often not welcome in higher ed. And someone who raised their hand said, but we all literally got here because we defended our thesis. Oh, yeah, you're not wrong. You know, the barrier you had to cross was a defense. And so it was set up, you know, from the beginning for the folks in that room that it started there. And since then they've had to defend their decisions moving forward. Yeah, yeah, we're. We're very good defense
critique giving different arguments. Yeah, for sure. That creates. Well, it's a learning opportunity. Right. It's a growth opportunity for leaders who come from that space and now must lead with a different set of skills and flex those skills and observe other leaders who appear to have mastered or at least are on that growth trajectory. Like, okay, that's how it's done. That's how I can do it too. We work with a lot of department chairs and deans around that very
piece around. I'm moving from faculty member to now department chair, sometimes back to faculty or sometimes toward dean. And that can be quite a switch. And I'm sure that's a lot of folks you work with too, in coaching. Can you talk a little bit about those transitions? Because it seems like it hits right in that spot. Yeah. So the transition from faculty or staff into a leadership role, I think one of the biggest challenges for, especially for faculty.
But this is also true for staff when they move from being a peer to a supervisor or, you know, department chair is interesting role because you're not. You're chair of the department, but. And technically you're a supervisor of the faculty. But it's that in between role. And a lot of faculty who move into that kind of role say, well, I'm still faculty. And actually I know associate deans and deans who continue to say, but I'm still faculty. I don't know why people are treating me differently.
But the fact of the matter is you now have budgetary authority, supervisory authority. Sign like you sign off on what the course schedule is going to look like. You have authority. Even if you still want to retain that identity as faculty, there needs to be a realization that that's not what your peers perceive you as anymore. That doesn't mean that you can't have collegial relationships with them, but it does mean that that shift in power dynamics, the sooner that you recognize.
Recognize it for what it is, then the sooner you can get to productive relationships with your colleagues. But I think that transition is hard and there's a little bit of letting go with that, at least Temporarily. Not only will you have less time to do your faculty things like your scholarship or creative activity, but you can't maintain some of the friendships the way you might want to without it appearing like a conflict of interest or showing favoritism
to your, your colleague. So just managing that and kind of it's empathy again. It's really taking the perspective of other people who see you as the leader. What will it mean for you to retain your identity as a human being and as a. Like, you're still the same person, but now you have this role that shifts the relationships a little bit. I just, I think you articulated that so well. And yeah, there's obviously, again, structural challenges inherent to that role because you're
rotating. Right. Three years, six years, etc. And you're going to go back to being faculty. And so it becomes very hard to make hard decisions that might affect some members of the unit. And it's hard to be, you know, there's a tendency to want to be more egalitarian and fair in your decision making, but that's not always strategic in terms of what choices the department needs to make, what moves the department needs to make,
what, you know, what direction to move in. Yeah. So I think there are those, those challenges. But I think you're articulating some really helpful strategies to acknowledge that those relationships have shifted some boundaries, maybe needs to manage, need to be managed differently. But that requires, I think, folks to embrace that role as a leader. It's not always the case with some of the chairs that we work with. You know, their identity, as you said, is more wrapped up
in their discipline or their scholarship. Right. They see themselves first and foremost as faculty, not necessarily as administration. And so it, but it requires you to really embrace your role as a leader because I think the other, the other side of that, if you don't do that, what I see a lot is then you're trying to placate all sides and you're trying to get everyone to be happy and, and, and buy into your decisions and
have consensus all of the time, and that rarely happens. And then that's a very hard position to lead from. Then you're just making deal. You know, then you get into lots of issues of inequity because you're cutting deals, course releases and service assignments, and, you know, whatever is involved. And it can, I think it can be a tricky place to find yourself in is if you're not following some of those strategies that you articulated. Yeah. And your role shifts, the relationships shift.
And then also there's your perspective or what you care about shifts. And I. I think it's easier to be a chair or to be a new chair when you embrace the idea that you are here to try to make the whole department better for everybody. It's for your colleagues, for the students that you serve,
for the staff who work in the department. If you can look at your role as chair, even if it's only three, six, whatever amount of years, and you use that to guide your decision making, then you're able to share why you're making a difficult cut or why this person can't teach on Tuesdays and Thursdays anymore. Or, you know, whatever it may be, it's coming out of this. I want what's best for the whole versus what's best for individuals.
And people still might not like your decisions, but they can at least live with them or understand, okay, this is what the chair cares about. The longevity and sustainability of our program and the collective. Even if I didn't get what I wanted, I can at least get behind this vision of health for the department. And then, of course, there'll always be people who don't like the decisions, no matter why you,
you know, no matter what the rationale. But I think being able to see, like, not only has my relationship shifted with these people, but also what I care about is no longer my research program or my teaching. It's now everybody's. It's. It's enlarged. Yeah. Which is exciting. It's, you know, it's exciting to think about, like, I could make things better for everybody. I could make it where our. Our major or minor or whatever our curriculum can
be, you know, sustain whatever wins come our way. But it is a shift, and not everybody wants that kind of responsibility. Also, can you talk about the role that maybe coaching can play or even like leadership workshops can play in helping any leader? We're talking about chairs in this example, and that's a. That's a great example because there's so many of them. But any leader to. To make that shift, because it really requires some intentionality, I think, to shift from an individual
motivation to a broader motivation to. You've got to spend some time to reflect, I think. And what is that broader purpose that you care about? What. What are those broader goals that you really want to serve? Because then you can be transparent to your point. We can be transparent around the. The process of serving that bigger purpose when you have to make decisions that not everybody agrees with. To your
point, hopefully they. If you're transparent about the Process. This is what we care about. This is the criteria we're going to use in service of that goal. At least people can accept it. They may not agree with it, they can accept it. But I think that requires some greater intentionality to be clear and articulate that purpose. Because I think sometimes if we're either moving very quickly or we just haven't taken that time, we might intuitively know the purpose, but it doesn't. And that might
be fine for most of the daily things you have to do. But the hard stuff, you really gotta be clear about why you're doing what you're doing. Yes. Yeah. I think there's so many tools for people to get more intentional and mindful about why they're doing what they're doing and what they're doing. So leadership development workshops, first of all, one of the best things about them is that you get to talk to other people at other institutions. And when I was
an associate provost for faculty development, it was. All of my workshops were within the institution, same institution, but it was cross silos. So across departments, across different schools and colleges. And that just, that shared imagination and creativity across these different groups was really amazing. With leadership development programs that are across institutions, then you have the added benefit of learning like how do they do it in a different region of the country or a different
institution type. And sometimes that creativity or those ideas that come from that are what you need to get you to the next step and then the space for reflection and time to be away. Even if it's a zoom workshop, the fact that you're taking time to be thoughtful and not running from one meeting to the other, which is typical in higher ed leadership helps.
And then having specific goals from your leadership development, like I know AI does some fabulous workshops on supervision, on budgeting, like those concrete skills that most of the time we don't get any training on whatsoever as we're coming up the ranks, is really important. I participated in one of the deans workshops that AI provided and I still keep in touch with some of the people that
I met through that workshop. So I think these kinds of workshops really help check a lot of different boxes, which is the networking, the idea generation, concrete skills learning, and the intentional time to reflect on what you're doing and why. And then coaching provides that extra, extra oomph because you have that one
on one time with someone who's gonna keep everything confidential. And it's, it's time for you to think strategically to figure out what might be a limiting belief that might be Getting in the way of your effective leadership, whatever it is, in the moment or in your very specific leadership situation, just having somebody to. To talk to and. And work it out, I think is in a nonjudgmental way, like, it's a. It's a wonderful, you know, just another tool to be able to be effective and confident,
more confident as a leader. I think it's, I think, to your earlier point, and maybe this is a segue to learn more about the book that you have coming out, but it's. It's someone to accompany you in your leadership. Right. And to be a guide with you so that you can do that for other people. Yes, absolutely. And the. The book leading toward Liberation is all
about how do we. How do we create these cultures through our own leadership that removes the obstacles that get in the way of people doing their best work at our institutions? And each chapter, I actually conclude with coaching questions just for people to be able to reflect on. How does this material. What does it mean to lead from accompaniment? And where have I seen that work well, where are the places where I need to practice that more?
So that time to reflect and then build a strategic way forward is really important in any kind of leadership development. I love that you include coaching questions in each of the chapters. And you've also given some examples today of some great coaching questions around perspective taking and understanding empathy. So a great bonus in the book as well. Thank you. I wanted to ask, because we talk about the five paths a lot with folks that we
have on the podcast, and you're familiar with the five paths. Use it in coaching. You too. Can you tell us a little bit about your scores and how it shows up for you and maybe how it's informed your. Your leadership journey? Yeah, sure. So I am a high relator, and my second highest score is visionary. And I think if. If you had asked people ahead of time, after they heard me speak a little bit, where would she fall on the five paths? People could probably predict it from
what I was saying. I lean into the relator a lot with my coaching, with my leadership and my teaching. And it's been interesting because, like, I see myself as a relator, and I also see where it may not necessarily get me in trouble, but where there's sometimes, like, a pain point. And when I first started teaching my students for our first exam, I said, okay, are you ready? They said that they're ready, and they bombed it. They bombed the first exam with me, and I had the next class.
I was like, what is going on, like, what happened? And they said, well, you just seem so nice that we didn't think that you were going to hold
us accountable on the exam. And that stuck with me from that first semester because I realized, like, as a leader with a title and authority, sometimes when I'm in front of different groups of people, they may misinterpret my warmth, my empathy and my compassion as, oh, she's gonna be easy to convince or manipulate or she won't be able to hold up to an argument or something like that. And that has happened where I, you know, I present an argument or I say, here's a decision we're gonna make.
And people are like, they don't know what to do with me because they're like, but she seemed like a relator. We didn't think that she could be firm. Yep. And I think that that has been. It's just something to recognize for me as a relator, like, this might be a reaction that people may have. I'm not going to be surprised by it. I'm still going to be firm because I do. Like, I have to hold other people
accountable. I will have accountability conversations with them if they misstep or if they violate something or come close to violating Title IX or something like that. And being a relator actually helps me have those conversations in a way where people can hear me without being as defensive as they could be. So it comes with its good and, you know, good things. But also I have to. I have to be aware that some people may misinterpret my relating as weakness.
And then the visionary. I was sharing the story earlier, sometimes as visionary, I think, well, other people, of course, know what my vision is. And my first year as Dean, I kept conveying what I thought was a clear vision about, here's where we're headed as a unit. And a year in, I had some people say, we still don't understand what your vision is. And I would like, I scratched
my head wondering, why don't they understand my vision? I've been telling them about it all the time and I realized, oh, well, I'm gonna have to do better on communicating it and communicating it in different ways that other people can understand. So some, sometimes I'll do it through email or short videos or whenever I had a chance to speak in front of a group. And just doing that over and over again, even though it felt redundant to me, to other people, they needed
to hear it in these different ways and multiple times. So the five paths kind of helped me think through that a little bit and helped me make sense of some of the feedback I was getting as a leader so that I could choose some strategic actions. That's. That's super interesting. As a high relator and visionary, I can relate to a lot of ways people are often. I've had that happen to me too, where people are very often
surprised when I hold them accountable. And I'm still surprised that they're surprised, I guess, because I think you. To your point, they're probably thinking they can get away with it. Yeah. There is this piece where people have this misconception of I might not have the highest relator score. I must not be great at showing empathy or I'm not empathetic. And I'm sure you've heard that from your coaching clients or how that works. So can you talk a little bit more about that?
Sure. Empathy is a complex construct. It's not just the warm and fuzzy I feel your pain type of empathy. People can show empathy and accompaniment in a lot of different ways. And sometimes it's through advocacy and using like flexing the warrior in your leadership, standing up for your people. It may not look like my kind of compassion, but that is compassion that's
enacted compassion. Also, accompaniment and empathy can be shown in how you create policies or whether you determine whether a policy is not functioning well and it's actually harming perhaps the most marginalized of your of the people who report to you. So convening a committee to collect data and do some fact finding can be a very empathic response to learning about something that is affecting your people. And that can be accompaniment
as well. You know, there's a lot of different ways that a leader can show accompaniment. It doesn't have to be just in kind of that emotional type of compassion, but it can be in other actions as well. I love that. One question that comes to mind, I ask when I talk to my coach, I ask when I talk to other coaches, is what do you think people need to hear right now? One of the things I talk about in the book is this concept of un otro mundo possible, which in Spanish means another possible world.
And I would say that no matter what reality you're living in at your institution or in your leadership position, there is always an other possible world, and there's likely multiple possible worlds. And retaining that sense of imagination and curiosity and creativity will help you envision with other people that other possible world and help you move toward it. So I think that's just remembering that and living out of that critical hope might be useful for
some folks. I love that. That is a perfect way to end. Just so folks know, it's called leading toward Liberation. And you can pre order now, right? Yes. Through Johns Hopkins University Press or Amazon or your favorite bookseller. Oh, great. Great. And Official release is July 8th, it sounds like. Yes. Well, congratulations. I know our folks will be looking forward to the book coming out. And also you're one of our coaches, so I'm sure folks
will be interested in hearing more from you as we move forward, too. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Emery. This was a lovely conversation. Congratulations on the book. Definitely recommend folks pick up a copy of that. And thank you for your leadership and thank you for your partnership. Thank you for the opportunity to chat with you today.