Ninety percent of who we are is completely subconscious.
It is all buried under the surface.
And in my opinion, to be a great leader, you have to uncover all that lies underneath, What triggers you, what excites you, who you really are as a leader, who you really are as a person. And I think part of the problem is that so many people are leading others without truly knowing themselves.
Those powerful insights come from Kathleen Griffith, the visionary behind the best selling phenomenon Build Like a Woman, a book that's transforming how women approach entrepreneurship. When Barbara Corkran called it equal parts heart and hustle, she captured the essence
of not just the book, but Kathleen herself. But before she was leading thousands of women along the path to launching their own businesses, Kathleen was climbing the corporate ladder at an ad agency, feeling that familiar sense of intuition that there had to be more. Her story is the journey from corporate burnout to entrepreneurial breakthrough, but Kathleen unpacks the raw truth about what it really takes to build a business on your own terms. I'm furnished to RAVI
and this is leading by example, executives making an impact. Kathleen, Welcome to the show. Welcome to leading by example.
I'm so glad to be here with you.
Good way to start the day at an eight am for me, So glad to start it with.
You eleven am for me. So you're really putting in the effort here because I've at least had my coffee. Well, I feel like you're an early riser. I feel like you've had a lot of gay already.
Yeah, you nailed that. I'm a part of the five am club.
So, oh my gosh, crazy. Well, speaking of you know, I've known you for some years and I've been watching you build this incredible busy and thought leadership. You've architected this so beautifully for yourself and for everyone who is in your orbit. You strike me as someone who has been just extremely proactive, strategic and early riser. You've designed
your career the architecture of it. So, speaking of like you know, getting up early in the morning, I'd love to start off just by having you take us behind the scenes Kathleen of what a typical workday or work week looks like for you. And while we're there what is something that someone who doesn't know your work closely would be surprised to discover about your leadership style or how you lead.
So there is no typical work week. Each week is filled with very different things. So some weeks I'm doing public speaking, I'm on tour doing that, I'm doing book signings for my new book, shooting television, producing television.
Brand consulting, recording a podcast, doing media. So it is all over the place.
And what I discovered is that I really needed rooting habits to ground me, so there was some foundational consistency in each day. Otherwise you just feel like this ping pong ball that's all over the place. And I don't know if you know that feeling where you're just spinning, you feel.
Like a whirling dervish.
Yeah, it can happen really easily, right, Like, it's very easy for that to take hold. I think when you even have a few days like that that are just not consistent. And so I do something. I call it the sixty minute prime. And what I do is every single morning, I do three things. I sweat, so I move my body for twenty minutes. I have sustenance. So really good greens and nourishing things in the morning to eat,
and silence, So twenty minutes of silence. I practice TM and also MBSR, which is mindfulness based stress reduction in and that might be something that's surprising to people. Meditation is a huge part of my life and it is one of the things that I attribute most to the success.
That I've had. It's a game changer. I could wax poetic about it forever.
I love the alliteration sweat, sestenance, silence, the three ses. Yeah, twenty minutes of sweating. I mean most people are like, I got to put in an hour and a half in the gym. No, you're very efficient.
Yeah, Well, when it becomes overwhelming, right of like it's a sixty minute commitment or it's a two hour commitment, then I find that you don't have the consistency where you just knock it out every day. And more than anything else, I really needed that rooting because the rest of my life has now become so extreme.
You've always been a mover. I was reading about how when you were a kid, your entrepreneurial spirit was well and alive. As a child, you sold candy in middle school. Take me back to Kathleen as a young girl, and how would your friends describe you back then?
I've heard that candy arbitrage is an early indicator of being an entrepreneur.
Not lemonade, not let lemonade.
No, everyone has a lemonade stand, but it is true.
And if that's the case, I was a born entrepreneur.
I had this little thing called the Snack Attack Pack, and so I'd put snacks in their candies in there, buy low, sell high. I'd wrap every single morning on the loudspeaker. Come and pick up your Snack Attack pack. Surprising enough, your hunger isn't coming back, Like didn't exactly rhyme.
But I'd sell it.
And then I had all this pocket money, and I just love the sales of it. And then I love the freedom of having this money in my little pocketbook that I could then go spend on whatever I wanted and no one could tell me otherwise. And then life changes, as we know, and so I kind of took that innate entrepreneurial quality and shoved it down the drain for a very long time. But I would say that my friends would describe me at the time as a little force of nature.
What was your profit margin on the snack Attack pack.
We were doing good. I think it must have been seventy five percent.
Cool.
Yeah, I think it was up there.
And it signals that you had a mind for branding and marketing and advertising back then, not just you know, a sales driven or a finance driven, but you had it all. You were the whole package. It really it signals a lot.
Yeah.
Yeah, I always love to start with childhood because I don't think it's a coincidence who we become. I think there are clues as young as in your case, middle school and when you finally got out of college, you are getting ready for your first sort of corporate gig, and I was reading that in those early years, I think, as so many young adults feel, you felt very unseen.
You are working on really big brand projects. You were given quite a bit of responsibility, but you didn't feel as though you had a true seat at the table. So looking back, was there anything that you think you would have done differently to experience more fulfillment on the job.
There is this great study that came out of McKinsey that talked about seventy eight percent of women experience microaggressions at work, so you're kind of self shielding and contorting yourself so that you don't take up as much space, which in turn makes you not feel as seen.
You know.
I think everything from just being interrupted to having a point of view restated, all the things that we've.
Heard a million times.
And I think the biggest piece that I would tell myself if I were able to go back, and I don't know how I would have cultivated this, would be to have spoken my mind more so in every single meeting. I just remember sitting there thinking, what's the right thing to say? What should I say to sound smart in
this room? When I was in the room, which wasn't very often, How can I endear myself to this person who's more senior than me, you know, the laughing when something isn't even funny, the smiling even when you don't feel like smiling. And so i'd probably go back to those rooms and just say, have a point of view, your point of view, stand behind it, and let the chips fall where they may.
But I was.
Always monitoring in my own head and.
Kind of cycling through a million things that I should be saying, and so I never really said very much, and I'd leave every kind of interaction mentally exhausted because of the gymnastics that I was doing.
The mental gymnastics. There's a lot of fear too, like to your point, you're going to say the wrong thing. I've been that twenty something year old who does speak up in a meeting mostly to ask more questions about what's being expressed, because I'm still learning, and I feel like in the beginning you might feel stupid. I mean, people will make you feel like an idiot, and I have been made to feel like an idiot. But it's like you have to keep flexing the muscle.
That's such an important point, like asking the questions. The smartest people in the room are those who are comfortable asking questions and wanting more clarification and are curious. So it's a sign of intelligence, it really is.
I'll tell you though, in the beginning it can feel like you're an impostor and you're a disruptor. But my just advice to anyone listening, like keep asking the questions. If you're not getting the right answers and you're not in the right rooms, you know you're not in the room of growth. So all this sort of keeping silent
and then the burnout. It culminated to a point where you're in a pizza shop in New York and you're having a meltdown and there's like truffle sauce all over your face and you're with her, a really good friend who's sort of calling you out, and your life kind of changes in that moment. So take us back to that New York pizzeria.
Yeah, so I was good girl bred, and I think that's what you know, going back to the beginning where I was a born entrepreneur, but then felt like that wasn't an option, to be an outlier, and so decide to do all the right things. Go get the good job, Go get the good looking partner, get engaged to them, Go get the nice house, the white picket fence, all that. Like I was on that exact track and working very very hard at it all, and I ended up at
this pizza joint. I'm just stuffing my face with pizza, which there's nothing wrong with, but drowning my sorrows and pizza because quietly, and I thought no one would notice, I just felt numb and dead inside, like I was not living my purpose. I was doing all the right things and yet it was such a joyless existence. I felt like I was eating like a dry saltine every day. And so my friend looks at me and says, you look like a ghost.
Are you okay?
I was pale faced and just unhealthy at the time. And so I left that dinner and I walked home and it was one of those rainy nights in New York City, you know, where the light is just glistening off the pavement. And I walked forty some odd blocks home. I didn't want to take a cab. And this quote from this woman who I had met at a workshop a few weeks before, Tama Keeves, who's a Harvard trained,
very bright lawyer. She had said, if you are this successful doing what you don't love, imagine how successful you'd be doing what you do love. And that haunted me. That haunted me that whole walk home, and finally I was able to get the courage to quit my corporate job.
How did you figure out to do what you love? This is the question that so many of us struggle with, because what you're describing is essentially high functioning depression. Yeah, it's a new study. I just interviewed doctor Judith Joseph. She's put a name to this that I think a lot of us experience, which is that we have this feeling to use your words of like emptiness and vacuousness, and although we are like killing it at work and in our professional lives, like on our resumes, on paper,
on LinkedIn, people are envious, but we're not fulfilled. We are numb. To use your words and recognizing it as one thing, then moving on from that, it requires understanding what does bark joy? What does make you happy professionally at least and for you, what was that discovery? Like how did you come to this idea? I got to open up my own agency and be a multi hyphen it who I thought?
Okay, once you make this brave decision your purpose and what you're meant to do, it just like lightning, like here we go.
It is common and it doesn't work that way. As we all know. It whispers to you.
It is this quiet knowing that as you get closer to it, you feel warmer, you feel more energized, you feel more excited, and the further you get away from it to borrow. Martha Beck has this great concept, the way of integrity and credible book too. It feels colder and more agitating, and it makes you feel small, and so it really became an experiment, a great social experiment.
So I'd been working in advertising and I figured I'd go into an adjacent space and help nonprofits with their marketing and branding and brand campaign because I had a non compete in the corporate space and so had never done that before, had never worked in nonprofit.
But it was all I could do where.
It seemed kind of easily transferable from one skill set to the other, just different category essentially, And that was the beginning of me starting my brand consultancy, Grays and Co. But it was very much a feeling my way through the dark.
But that to me felt better.
Than sleepwalking through life, which is what I'd been doing before, because I believe there was a light at the end of that tunnel.
Let's talk about being a woman in business. Let's talk about from your perspective as a founder, what are the models of leadership that you deploy and what are the ones that you think we don't use enough of. You know, there's so many books on leadership, and I just want to understand and what you bring to your teams every day and the leadership models that you follow.
So when I started my own small business, You're strapped, you have very limited resources, time, You're paying only a few people to work for you. So it ain't great, right, You're dealing with a lot of constraints. And so I was a horrible leader. I was like running very fast with super sharp scissors. It was dangerous, it was reckless. I do NDAs after the fact. I do contracts after people had already started working.
I was laid on billing.
It was just disorganized. Chaos is an understatement. And over time, as the business actually continued to do well, I took a step back and I developed something which I call mindful leadership that I needed for myself. So moving from kind of this more toxic model to a more mindful model, and what it essentially means is to first know thyself. So ninety percent of who we are is completely subconscious.
It is all buried under the surface, And in my opinion, to be a great leader, you have to uncover all that lies underneath, what triggers you, what excites you, who you really are as a leader, who you really are as a person. And I think part of the problem is that so many people are leading others without truly knowing themselves. So starting there, doing the excavation work, bringing it to the surface, and then really owning this is
the sort of leader that I am. And I had to radically redefine my company and leadership style because I'd been co opting this style and that to try to make it seem like we were one of those cool girl companies. I was a cool founder. We were going to drink rose and wear wreaths and go on versions once a week that were team wilding and go eat a wellness retreats.
Right, it ain't me like that, Ain't me.
I'm a nerd okay, first and foremost, I'm not grade at operations. I have a temper at times that I'm working very much to get a handle on. I continue to work through that. And so it meant that I had certain attributes that I wanted my team to have, professionalism, positivity, and performance. I love alliteration, as you can tell. And we were going to move and operate like a woman's sports team, and it was going to be tough, and I was going to coach you and I was going
to have high standards. But that's what works for me, for you, it's going to be something completely different because you're bringing so many other beautiful qualities to the table.
But I think that's.
What it comes down to, and then communicating that to your team in a way that's transparent, where you own it so they know what they're getting. And if you want to be more of an Elon Musk founder, like he's awful in my opinion, but.
At least you know what you're getting, you know.
So I think that's part of what's problematic in the space, is that people are trying to pretend they have a culture that is not what it is.
You bring up Elon Musk. Can you imagine if his name was Elaine Musk? And what sort of reception would the media and the world give to a woman who was leading with that iron fist? And even yourself, you know, not that you had an iron fist, but you were in hearing your leadership style. You're like, I set boundaries. I'm not like doing retreats every day. I play like a soccer team. That admission is not sort of the
soft yess that we expect from women. And I was just speaking the other day with a friend, a woman friend who worked in finance in her early career, and she said, in all of my reviews people called me pleasant, and as a result, I got high marks. And they would say things to her like, oh, but you always have a smile on your face and you.
Dress so nice.
You know these other women, they're so harsh, and I just wonder. I guess the question is, how do you reconcile wanting to have a certain style of leadership as a woman in business that is incongruent with what society expects of you. We don't give women leaders, especially I think of like Sofia Amarusso and others who like the girl Boss era. There's so many women leaders that have been knocked down, have not been given the amount of
sort of makeups and makeovers that we give men. I'm speaking generally, but I think we know what I'm talking about, right. We don't give women enough grace and enough opportunities to say, Okay, I messed up. I'm going to try this again. Like you even said, I have a temper, I'm working on it. I think that as a woman leader that's scrutinized more than as a male leader. Do you agree with any of this, and what do you think about it.
It's exactly right. The bar is different.
It's not fair, it's not right that we're held to a very specific standard. The box is very tight for how we're expected to operate. That said, I think the elixir is very easy because once you stop caring and just own the truth of who and what you are, negative criticism in the media be damned. It's just do you life short, lead the way that you want to lead,
Just be honest about it. And I think that is maybe I don't want to generalize, but I think that's maybe where we ran into some issues where a lot of us, for a period of time, we're starting our own businesses and then trying to operate them as if we really weren't. People were like cyborg robots who were just so perfect and smiley, happy, and it was going to be this great kumbaya circle. And it's not realistic
for how you need to operate a business. And so maybe that disingenuousness, that lack of honesty about what it really takes and how you need to lead, is what got some of us into a little bit of trouble. And I feel for those who were on the headlines because there were so many more of us who were operating that way too. They just got it because they were more known at the time.
Yeah, it's sort of the double edge, right where the sort of like you put yourself out there and while that's great, then you're also putting yourself out there and so now, yeah, we're open to the wounds.
But this is something I hear all the time and the women entrepreneurs I talk to is that double standard makes them so stressed out. They're giving criticism to an employloyee and the employees saying, well, I don't like your tone and your mean to me, and then they're in group chats sharing that the founder is verbally abusive for whatever it is, and it's terrifying too. So it puts this additional layer of stress on your management.
When we come back, Kathleen Griffith and I talk about the mindset shift that helped her grow her business, how she moved past imposter syndrome, and the game changing power of asking for what you want.
My first outrageous ask was to Jessica Alba and her team said yes, one yes can change your life.
We'll be right back. So in your book, Build Like a Woman, Why did you want to take it from that lens? Like, what is it about building like a woman that is so unique?
I really didn't want women to even be a part of it initially, and I hope that the womanness of it falls away. That's my dream, and I've shifted everything
to now it just being built. But it feels important as a starting point to acknowledge our gender because all the business books I was reading were predominantly authored by men, you know, and then there are some great ones from you, et cetera, But for the most part men, and I just felt like I was having all these really weird experiences building the company that I spoke to more and more other successful founders about and they it had similar
experiences around the emotional upheaval of your crying on your bathroom floor once a week, because we're emotional by nature, which is what makes us great too. Write to having all these strange encounters with men where sometimes there were just strange dynamics around power, and the more powerful you were becoming, the more there seemed to be this blowback. So I really don't want to live in a world
where things are gendered. It isn't where I truly want to be, but it felt important because one, we have these experiences that are different, and two I only really wanted to hear other amazing women who I have featured in the book, you know, everyone from Jessica Alba to Eva Longoria to neuroscientists like doctor Amishi Jahd Martha Beck, who's one of my great life teachers who I mentioned earlier, Sarah Blakely for sales.
I wanted to.
Do that because there's this wealth of knowledge and insight from women, the unvarnished truth that lives below the surface that I have found so deeply inspiring that because I had close proximity to these women, I wanted to bring that insight to more women as well.
I love that, and it worked. It worked, you know.
To bring these voices to the forefront intentionally is not something we do enough of. I mean, I think about Julia Louis Dreyfus's podcast Wiser than Me. It's all about listening to women that are older than her, because she says, quite frankly, we don't ask them for their advice, and by golly, they have things to say. They have so much to say life and have learned some things, and we all want to get the advice from like the
wise old man, what about the wise old woman? Right, it seems like so silly that we don't do that enough, and so I really appreciate that perspective of yours.
I love that you referenced her by the way, I had her best friend last night.
Yeah, her best best friend from college.
They go way back, and it's so important to have these voices at the table who have so much institutional knowledge.
So yeah, shout out to JLD. We love you, Yeah, Kathleen. A lot of people aspire to be authors. We have a lot of idea and even if we're working in a nine to five, a book can be a game changer for your career, right. It's a way to have ownership over a collection of ideas that you want to put out in the world. For me, my first book was my Parachute. When I got laid off, I had a book, so it allowed me to have a platform.
And I think I've built literally everything that I have because of that decision in my twenties to author a book and never have to go back to, you know, working full time somewhere. So, as you wrote build like a woman, I want to know how did the book change your life in some ways? And any advice for somebody who wants to become an author. You know, your biggest tip.
I really believe all of us have something to say. Everyone is sitting on something that is unique and true to them, and so if that is on your heart, just go do the darn thing. You can figure it out as you go. You can figure out how to get an agent, and how to sell to a publisher or self publish, how to then market it and do pr It's all figure outable. So it just requires that you take a little bite each day. It's a very it's a marathon. No better than anyone else. It's a marathon,
and you need to be really disciplined. There's this great book, The War of Art, which.
Is all about that. I get for anyone who wants to write a book, because you really need to be able to sit.
Down in the chair every single day if you're going to write it yourself.
It's a battlefield.
Get greater around that, right, and even folding the laundry feels very attractive at the time on any distraction, right.
But it has brought for me personally you'd asked about that.
It has been one of the great joy points of my life because now I'm able to actually face to face meet these women, these perfect strangers.
I get notes from them every single morning.
I can now meet them at live events, and we have this shared vernacular, we have this common experience that we can kind of short circuit with each other. So I can't get over that I show up places and I hear more than anything else, I felt seen. You made me feel seen, and as someone who felt so unseen for so long, that is the highest compliment you could ever get.
Let's talk about this outrageous ask. I'm going through the archives here, so you have a practice. You call it the outrageous ask. It's essentially part of being bold in the workplace, and I want you to bring that to life for us. And maybe what is an outrageous ask that you've recently requested that is worth noting?
Okay, so this is fun.
So for anyone listening, you're going to want to activate this this week. It is so powerful it can honestly change your life. So this came from the desire to have bigger things happen in my business, but it applies to anyone who has their own business or who was in a corporation. The idea is that you make an ask, so you think about something that you want that could
be game changing for you. Person you want to meet, a partnership, you want to do, project, you want to work on, game changer, something that makes you terrified when you think about it.
It's that big.
It's a basic ask to the tenth exponent. It's something that ninety nine point nine percent of people would say no to if they got it right, and they're gonna think.
One of two things, Who does she think she is? And is she crazy?
Like that's what they should be thinking when they open up this email from you or get this call from you. And it's amazing because one yes to an outrageous ask can change your life. Like when I was starting this interview series for Build, I didn't know who was gonna do it.
No one knew who I was.
And my first outrageous ask was to Esca Alba and her team said yes, and then that paved the way for all because she was this anchor person who'd come on yeah, and then all these other women ended up saying yes on the back of that.
So it's that sort of thing.
And I've had this happen so many times in my own life. If you make one a week, it's fifty two ass a year that are just hanging out there in the ether. And even if someone says yes to one, it's life changing. But please don't everyone email me, because this is what tends to happen. I end up with a thousand outrageous asks. Don't give one to farnoushe or to me, but send them out into the world. No, unless we can uniquely help you, then that's a different story.
What's the most outrageous ask you've gotten?
One that was really fun was I went to UNC Chapel Hill and this girl was graduating and she really wanted to intern for me, and so she had everyone in her marketing class. It was one hundred women or something send me messages across every single social media platform on why she would be an amazing intern who should be given the opportunity. The outrageousness of that was she had enrolled all of these people and then they're posting
on my LinkedIn publicly, they're sending me dms. I mean, these women came for me, and I gave her paid work and she actually helped you some other research for the book.
So it works. Wow, it works.
That's a great, great story. Someone listening is going to do that for their north star. I love that. Something we really like to ask all of our guests, Kathleen, is what leading by example means to them. So I'd give you the floor to tell us, what does leading by example mean to you?
Leading by example means you live your life with total alignment. You live in a way that is maybe unconventional, unique, but it is true to you because that is what the world needs now more than ever. It needs more people who lead in their own unique ways.
I love that. Thank you so much, Kathleen Griffith. We loved having you on. I loved reconnecting with you. I took many notes.
Oh I love being here with you.
I think you inspired a few people too.
Thank you.
We are very appreciative. Thank you.
All right.
That's Kathleen Griffith. What a leader, Kia. I just I really appreciated how disciplined she is in sort of the learning how to lead. She recognizes that it's a work in progress. She's done a lot of self work, and I like that she admits when she's wrong or has a weakness, which can be really scary to do when you're in a position of power to say you know what I was wrong or I don't know enough and I'm going to go back and learn. What was your favorite part of the interview?
Ah? Yeah, this was such a great interview. I was just like so engaged and so excited to hear everything she said. I think being intuitive with yourself is so important. It's something that I feel like a lot of people lack in general, beyond business, but like in their everyday lives. It's so important to just check in and look inward. And I feel like that's not something we see a lot of people doing, and I really feel like it's
a disservice to like yourself. But also like society, we have to coexist in this world, and it's almost in a way selfish to not look inWORD because the people around you have to deal with that. So I really love that she said she takes a moment every morning to do that. And another thing that she said which I thought was great, You guys talked about if Elon Musk was Elaine and Musk, and I'm also not a fan of.
Him for other reasons.
We don't have to go into it, but I do think there's a thing where it's like a woman makes an ounce of a mistake and.
She's like admonished. Yeah, the sman of so tired, young Farnoushe felt so validated when she said asking questions is a sign of intelligence and curiosity, because I remember being terrified in my junior writer role at a magazine in New York. I was so I guess, just intimidated by all these like very successful writers and editors around me.
And I remember we would go into the morning pitch meetings and one month we were going to talk about real estate, and the whole issue was going to be about the housing market and why it's a great time to buy a house. This was many years ago. And I raised my hand because again I'm here to learn
mostly right, I'm new on the job. And I said, can you tell me a little bit about like why we're talking about real estate is the most important thing for the month of August and the issue doesn't come out for another four months, so how can we be sure that in four months it's still going to be relevant? And I tell you the looks I got, like how dare you ask this question?
What do you mean?
And their answer. We just know, like it's all we talk about with our friends. So it was like, well, that wasn't very scientific.
Yeah, it's the ego.
It's ego.
Talk like ego, and you know it's so easy when you get a reaction like that that you just quiet yourself. I thought that was such important advice. I can't say I practiced it back then. You know, maybe I did
quiet myself a little bit. But for others who are new to the workplace or even not, you know, I think there's always that intimidation factor and to be the curious one is a sign of intelligence, and it's a sign of commitment, right, Like I want to learn so I can grow, so that hopefully I can be an asset to this team. It's not appreciated enough.
Yeah, absolutely, it's poor leadership on their behalf. And I also think people just want to convince you that their way is the only way. And another thing that she mentioned was like stop caring about other people responses, and that's like the criticism of women and we don't give
them enough space. But just her vice of like stop caring, I feel like I've practiced that so much and maybe too like far off, but I'm also like, I look at people and I'm like, you were trying so hard to convince me of your point, of your way of lifestyle, of your values. That's simply not aligning with me. And I'm not going to change myself to make sense to you. And I'm just simply not going to do it. I just once I started implementing that, I just became happier.
And I'm like, we can all say that our way is the right way, X, Y, and Z, but why should I have to just think this is the only way.
We're often playing the defense when we're trying to move an agenda, and anyone sort of questions it, we see it as an offense. I think when Kathleen talked about navigating the workplace as a woman and standing in your truth and doing things your own way, I think that takes a lot of courage. I think until all women can get on board with that, when we can normalize that,
that's when we can stop talking about it. You know, the issue is that if you're the one woman in the office who's taking a stand, who's the one woman in the office asking for the promotion or saying, hey, I have a different idea Yeah, everyone's going to look at you like you have four heads. But when everyone who identifies as a woman, who identifies even on just as an other, starts to speak up more, then that gets normalized and then we stop seeing a lot of
what is still unfortunately a backlash to that. And it's going to take some brave women like Kathleen to pave the way. But I'm so glad she has a book, Build Like a Woman, to democratize this, to teach others how to do this, because a rising tide does lift all boats. Yeah, I'm very excited to read her book. So thanks Kathleen, and that's our show. I hope you
enjoyed our conversation with Kathleen. If you like what you're hearing, please follow in subscribes you don't miss out on any new episodes, and as always, we want to hear your thoughts to make this the best show possible, so please leave us a review. In the meantime, you can find me at Farnoosh Charabi on Instagram and I'm always on the So Money podcast. I'll see you next time. This
podcast is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio. Our executive producer is Matt Stillo, and our supervising producer is Nikiah Swinton. This podcast was edited by Sierra Spreen.