The Count of Monte Cristo - Part 2 by Alexandre Dumas w/Christen Blair Horne

Giddy up. Alright. Leadership lessons from the Great Books podcast, episode number one forty two. Christen b Horn, Count of Monte Cristo part two in three, two, one. Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells, and this is Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast episode number one forty two. In this episode, we are revisiting a massive book that we started visiting about a year ago. This is a book, a novel, a story featuring intrigue, adventure, romance,

pathos, and more. It literally covers the entire emotional pantheon of a human being. And it is all set against the background of the French Revolution and the aftermath of the actions of the buzz saw that cut across Europe known as Napoleon Bonaparte. This book is so long that, of course, it will take us several episodes, for us to cover it, and, actually, myself and I cohost today were talking about this. It might take us 10 episodes to cover it, in which case we will have an entire course

available to you for consumption. And so this episode acts as the second part to the first episode where we introduce this book and talk briefly about its overarching themes in episode number one twelve. I would encourage you to go back and listen to that. Today, we will be summarizing and analyzing the themes for leaders embedded in the second part of the 1,243 page phone book of a novel. I'm going to hold it up for you.

The count of Monte Cristo, Alexandra or Alexander depending upon which pronunciation you like, Dumas. Leaders, check your six for that ambitious fellow from Elba might be lurking around in the background. And today, we will be rejoined. We will be reconstituting our conversation or or, you know, rejoining our conversation, with our soon to be regular, cohost here, at least for this book anyway, and our resident experts on the Count of Monte Cristo. Back from episode number one twelve, Christen

b Horn. Hello, Christen. How are you doing today? Hello. I am well. It's a good day. It is a good day. Well, any day that you can be reading about the Count of Monte Cristo, any day that you can be reading it with yeah. With with people. Any any day like that is a good day. It is. So, gonna pick up here, and, we're going to start off here with, chapter 10, at least in my version of the Count of Monte Cristo, was chapter 10, your your mileage, open source and otherwise, may vary.

But the title of the chapter that we're going to be picking up with is going to be the the little cabinet in the Tuileries. K? And I wanna pick up here, read a little bit from the count of Monte Cristo to set the tone for what we're going

to be talking about today. Let us leave Villefort, going hell for leather down the road to Paris, having paid for extra horses at every stage, and precede him through the two or three rooms into the little cabinet at the Tuileries with its arched window famous for having been the favorite study of Napoleon and King Louis the eighteenth and today for being that of King Louis

Philippe. You're seated in front of a walnut table that he had brought back from Hartwell to which, by one of those foibles usually among great men, he

was especially partial. King Louis the eighteenth was listening without particular attention to a man of between 50 and 52 years, gray haired with aristocratic features and meticulously tuned turned out, while at the same time making marginal notes in a volume of Horace, the Gryphius edition, much admired but often inaccurate, which used to contribute more than a little to his majesty's learning observations on philology. You were saying, the king asked, that I feel deeply disquieted, sire.

Really? Have you by any chance dreamt of seven fat and seven lean cows? No, sire, for that would presage only seven years of fertility and seven of famine. And with a king as farsighted as your majesty, we need have no fear of famine. So what other scourge might afflict us, my dear Blacas? I have a reason to believe, sire, that there is

a storm brewing from the direction of the South. And I, my dear duke, replied Louis the eighteenth, think that you are very ill informed because I know for a fact, on the contrary, the weather down there is excellent. Despite being a man of some wit, Louis the eighteenth liked to indulge a

facile sense of humor. Sire, Monsieur de Blanc continued, if only to reassure his faithful servant, might your majesty not send some trusty men to Languedoc, to Provence, and to the Dauphin to give him a report on the feeling of these three provinces? The king replied, carrying on with the annotation of his horse. The courtier laughed to give the

impression that he understood the phrase from the poem of Anusia. Your majesty may well be perfectly correct to trust in the loyalty of the French, but I think I might I may not altogether be wrong to anticipate some desperate adventure. By whom? By Bonaparte or at least those of his faction. My dear Blacas, said the king. You are interrupting my work with your horrid tales. And you, sire, are keeping me from my sleep with fears for your

safety. One moment, my good friend. Wait one moment. I have been here a most perspicacious note on the line, Let me finish it, and you can tell me afterwards. There was a brief silence while Louis the eighteenth in handwriting that he made as tiny as possible wrote a new note in the margin of his Horace. Then when the note was written, he looked up with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has made a discovery when he has commented on someone else's idea and said,

carry on, my dear duke. Carry on. I am listening. Sire, said Blacas, who had briefly hoped to use Bellefort to his own advantage, I have to tell you that this news that troubles me is not some vague whisper. There are no mere unfounded rumors. A right thinking man who has my entire confidence as was required by me to keep a watch on the South, Duke hesitated as he said this, has just arrived post haste to tell me that there is a great danger threatening the king. And so, sire, I came at once.

Louis the eighteenth continued, making another note. Is your majesty working with me to say no more on this topic? No, my dear Duke, but stretch off your hand. Which one? Whichever one you prefer. Over there, on the left. Here, sire? I tell you to the left, you look on the right. I mean, my left. There you have it. You should you should find a report from the minister of police with yesterday's date, but here is himself. You

did say didn't you? Louis the eighteenth remarks turning to the usher who had indeed just announced the minister of police. Yes, sire. The usher repeated. That's it, Baron, Louis the eighteenth continued with a faint smile. Come in, Baron, and tell the duke your most recent news about. This is nothing from us, however serious the situation may be. Let's see. Is that the island of Elba a volcano? And shall we not see war burst from it, bristling and blazing?

Bella. Led elegantly back against the chair, resting both hands upon it and said, was your majesty good enough to consult my report of yesterday's date? Yes. Of course. But tell the duke what was in this report because he is unable to find it. Let him know everything that the youth sufferers doing on his island. Bonjour, the baron said to the dew. All his majesty's servants should applaud the latest news that we

have received from Elba. Bonaparte, Monsieur Dandre returned to Louis the eighteenth who was busy writing a note and did not even look up. Bonaparte, the baron continued his board to death. He spends whole days watching his miners at work in Porto Longon. He scratches himself as a distraction, said the king. He scratches himself? The duke said. What does your majesty mean?

Yes. Indeed, my dear duke. You forgot that this great man, this hero, this demigod is driven to distraction by a skin ailment, There is more, said the minister of police. We are almost certain that the usurper will be shortly mad. Mad? Utterly, his head is softening. Sometimes he weeps bitterly at others. He laughs hysterically. On some occasions, he spends hours sitting on the shore playing at ducks

and drinks. And when a pebble makes five or six leaps, he seems as satisfied as though he had won another battle of Marengo or Austerlitz. You must agree that these are signs of folly. War of wisdom, was your laverre. War of wisdom, said Louis the eighteenth with a laugh. The great captains of antiquity used to replenish their spirits by playing at ducks and bricks. See Plutarch's life of Scipio, Africanus. You gotta love reading this kind of stuff two

hundred years later. It is almost exactly two hundred years later since the events that, Alexandre Dumas describes with such clarity and alacrity in the court of Louis the eighteenth in the Count of Monte Cristo. And so today, I'd like to talk about Louis the eighteenth. I'd like to talk about Napoleon Bonaparte, that scourge who they trapped on the Isle above Elba after he rampaged

around Europe and gave everybody fits. I'd also like to talk a little bit about what we can learn from bureaucratic obsequience and obeisance that we see there in the court of Louis the eighteenth and, of course, the hundred days of Napoleon where he rescared everybody or at least the elites of Europe half to death. So let's turn and start with the literary life of Louis the eighteenth. Louis the eighteenth was born Louis Stanislav Xavier. He was born on 11/17/1755, and he died 09/16/1824.

He lived almost a complete life. He was known as the desired in French, Les Desiree, and he was king of France from 1814 to 1824, except for a brief interruption during the hundred days, which is, related in the, in the count of Monte Cristo, in 1815. Before his reign, he spent twenty three years in exile from France, starting in 1791 during the French Revolution and the first French empire.

Until his ascension to the throne of France, he held the title of count of Provence as the brother of King Louis the sixteenth, the last king of the Anshan regime. Following the French Revolution and during the Napoleonic era, Louis the eighteenth lived in exile in Prussia, Great Britain, and Russia. Now there's a lot more about Louis the eighteenth. He was a fascinating character. As I was telling, Christian before we got started here, he, got married,

apparently was unable to consummate his marriage. He suffered from obesity and gout because while he was knowledgeable, he was also gluttonous, and he failed to generate an heir, which most kings did not realize back in the day. Basic biology says it's a man's fault if you can't produce an heir. But let me not sully history with biological facts. So let's get started on this, Kristen. You love this book. That's why I've I've

had you all to talk about it. And you love it that we're sly. I hope you love it that we're slogging through it because we got a lot slogged through on this. It's like when it's always the problem when they make books into movies. Right? You're like, you skipped all the best parts. Like, it's not always true, but it's like when when we have the time to just go through it all, you're like, yes.

Yes. So let's, well, then let's let's talk a little bit about Louis the eighteenth and his character in the Count of Monte Cristo. So there's there's Louis the eighteenth, the character, and there's Louis the eighteenth, the actual, like, human being who lived. And Dumas, of course, takes the literary license as do most writers and creatives. And, I think that that is something that is missing in our current era.

We don't have anybody who has the guts, I would assert, to take literary license with real people because, partially, it's because the social media thing and the Internet thing, we all know too much about everybody. And so to take literary license would be like, please. I'm being creative. But maybe I'm wrong. People have done it, actually, and they they got a lot of criticism. It's a movie called, oh my gosh. The name literally just flew out of my head. It's about P.

T. Barnum. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My kid loves the songs from that movie. Yeah. Greatest Showman. Greatest Showman. I love the music. Music's great. Hugh Jackman is great. Right. Zendaya, what's the other kid's name? Zed kid. Zac Efron. They all did amazing. It's a great I I love that movie. But historically, completely like, I don't know about completely inaccurate, but aside from the fact that PT Parnham started the the circus, that's about it. That's

what they got right or historically accurate. Right. So there's a lot of license being taken, and the movie got a lot of criticism for it. But at the same time, it made the characters It's a movie. It's a movie. It was enjoyable. It made the characters relatable. So, yes, I have lots of I have lots of opinions about this. Well, okay. So you're you're an

artist. You're, you know, you're creative. You're in you're in the space of trying to put something in the world, whether that's, you know, something that you generated off the top of your head or, you know, businesses you're doing, something like that. Right? It's really, really hard, and I think it's always been hard to take someone who is known. Like, Louis the eighteenth was known, and everybody had an opinion about Louis the

eighteenth. I think if the people of France had had Twitter back then, they had been tweeting about him. They'd have been a real problem for him, not for them. They would have been fine. How can and this is the this is the this is the question of the day. How can artists, can us as artists make current events as compelling in writing as Du Maur made his current events compelling for his audience? How do we how do we capture that? Because I

don't I think we fail to capture that. Well, something that I was thinking about. I have I almost have two answers. I have one that feels like it's not it doesn't relate to the book, and then I have one that is is more related to the book. So I guess we'll start with that one is I feel like what Dumas did with Louis the eighteenth is I was also looking up dates. Mhmm. Because this, like, Bonaparte and Louis the eighteenth, that all happened, like,

before Dumas' time. Yeah. And he would be growing up with these stories, hearing them from his parents, hearing their their filters, hearing all the adults. Right? And so he would be kind of absorbing this as almost, not legends, but, you know, just stories of the ours our storied past. Right. And so then he's putting it together, and he as as an artist, I think you always wanna make it relatable. And so I think

what he did here is, like, there is a person. There's a person that he knew that he just decided to call Louis the eighteenth because he was like, I bet Louis the eighteenth was like this. And then every French person was like, oh my gosh. I know that guy. And that's how you make it compelling. You you pick it specific enough, and you're not afraid to, you know, maybe throw some shade. Because,

honestly, what's movie he's gonna do? He's dead. Yeah. It's like the Leonardo DiCaprio meme from, once upon a time in Hollywood. Right? That that one scene where he's, like, drinking the beer, and he's got the cigarette, and he comes up off the couch. He's, like, pointing at the thing, the meme that you see flowing down. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who's that guy? So Okay. So that's and and I guess that kinda does tie into my like, the second answer is you you you

gotta humanize people. And Mhmm. On both on both of the end ends of the spectrum. I feel like when artists talk about humanizing people, they usually mean, make them sympathetic. Mhmm. That is often what it means. Mhmm. But it also means showing them when they're kind of ridiculous, when they make like, they're just yeah. Like this guy, he's not even listening. He's just like, I'm gonna make these notes in my book and be all learned and have this air about me. And we're like, we know that

guy. We you know someone who's like that. And when you read this story, you're like, that's and I think that's part of how you make it compelling. And it actually goes it reminds me of marketing a lot, actually, because, you know, they they tell you, you know, to pick your target market and narrow it down and narrow it down and write to your target market. Like, you're only writing to one person. Everybody's too scared to do that because they think that it it won't it

will, like, limit my audience. It will limit my sales. And, like, that's not true. Like, artists, authors have been doing this for eons. And that's write to your target market, though, don't you have to know or have a sense or have sympathy for the market you're writing to. Or not sim yes. Yeah. To understand them. Yeah. And understand them. Yeah. Or or empathy maybe. I think empathy is probably

a better term these days. But okay. Empathy for your target market. Right? You have to have empathy for the people who are reading the book or consuming the not consuming, watching the movie or listening to the music. Right? You have to have empathy for those people. Right? For that to Yeah. Yeah. And if you're talking down to them, they usually know. Right. They can they can tell. Okay. Yeah. So, the I like what you said about humanizing people. Why I have

ideas on why. But from your where you're sitting in the spot where you're at, because you're you're in California, you're in the mail storm of things. Oh, yes. Why do creatives in the last twenty five years have trouble humanizing the people people they're writing about or creating about? Oof. Yeah. I'm gonna go ahead and ask you the hard question of Brian. Oh. Because we're gonna we haven't gotten to Napoleon Bonaparte yet, and that's I mean, there you go. Like, I'm gonna talk

a little about the Napoleon movie that just came out, which is trash. Twenty five years. Oh, right. Yeah. I haven't I haven't even bought it. I watched it on I watched it on a plane. I was like, because I'm a Ridley Scott guy. I watched it on a plane, and I didn't even make it through, like, the half hour of it before I was like, this is right. Now there is a new Count of Monte Cristo movie,

and it's in French. So I'm actually quite interested. Like, oh, if the French made it, like, maybe it'll be good. Maybe it'll be good. And I've seen good things about it. But okay. So why have artists have trouble have been having trouble writing humanizing people? Yeah. Because, like, you could humanize okay. So I don't know. It depends on who you're reading. Right? Maybe the, like, the, like, your people writing for Hollywood. No. I don't well, I don't know if anybody's happy for with

Hollywood right now, actually. No one is. The people who are who are looking for good writing and good movies and good cinema are mad because nothing is good right now. And then the people that they're trying to please right now are mad because it's not good and it's not doing well. So it's just like So so we are recording this. We are recording this. The the weekend when Snow White Snow White live action movie is good. Oh. And that's the sound right there. That's the sound right there.

I'm not even I haven't watched like, I have completely abandoned most of my most of my, what is it, my my interests if it's coming from Hollywood or just, like, I'm out. What just Star Wars, Marvel, any and it's just like, I'm out. Like, I'm I'm out. I'm out. I tried gatekeeping. Even People didn't let me I'm out. Even even, like, the new Daredevil show, just to nerd out just for a little Yeah. Yeah. No. Go ahead. I've I've heard I've heard like,

the new Daredevil show is, like, okay. I might actually try that one. I'm still nervous. I'd still don't think it's gonna be good, but that's the first thing I've seen in a while that I'm like, okay. Maybe. All I know is Amazon is gonna ruin James Bond. That's all I know. They're gonna Star Wars up James Bond. Probably. And I will have absolutely nothing to do with it. I'm I'm not gonna have anything to do with it. You know what Amazon did well, and this is because

they left it up to the creatives, and this is an amazing creative team. There's a creative team out there called Critical Role, and it's a bunch of nerdy voice actors that play d and d. And they created this story throughout their d and d campaign, and now they're porting it to an animated show. Amazon produced that because they raised all the money themselves, and it does amazingly. And it's well

written as well. It's obviously well voice acted. It just that's that's the probably the best show that Amazon, in my opinion, has put out in a while. So back to this question, if I'm not to why yeah. But, but my first thought is that people get preachy, and then they lose sight of, like, actually humanizing people. Right? They they they're they want so badly to bring awareness or sympathy or compassion or whatever understanding, whatever it is around this issue that

they think needs so badly to be out there. And I'm generalizing hardcore here. But then they just they lose sight of of letting letting it be real. Almost like they feel like they have to editorialize in order for people to believe that this is something they need to be paying attention to. Does that make sense? And then you start to then I think audiences start to catch on to that. We're like, this character is too sympathetic. Mhmm. They're like, really? This this that's

they're just completely a victim every time at every turn? We're like, nobody maybe not nobody. That's a blanket statement. Right? But it's just, like, so very few situations. Is it like There are very few situations Show them make a mistake. Right. Right. Well, there's very few situations where and and do we even see this, by the way, in the count of Monte Cristo? Like,

yes. Louis the eighteenth is, to your point, a caricature or conglomeration of a bunch of people together who everybody recognizes. Right. But he also is Dumas had enough empathy to to put the human touches in him. So the human touch is he's marking a porous, and he's quoting from the life of Africa, you know, Scipio Africanus. Right? Like, he's and, of course, these are literary references that people nowadays won't know, unless

they're well read. But he's making in jokes through even those literary references that humanize this person who, and and I I I have not Is a figurehead. Yeah. Who's a figurehead. Right. He's a figurehead. Right. Right. And I haven't even I haven't touched on politics yet. Like, this is even a political statement. That's what I was thinking. Like, I looked up it would be like me trying to write. Well, actually, the reason I this

popped into my head is because Nixon in China is an opera Oh. That I thought did really well. Like, it didn't villainize Nixon. It just kinda let him be. Mhmm. Also, the, you know, the you you mentioned, it's like, why don't why aren't we allowed to do this, anymore? It's like, well, lawsuits. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of litigation and and copywriting copywriting. I don't know if that's the right word, but licensing and and all the laws and and stuff about writing about doing art on people that

are still alive. But, anyway, so there's the opera of Nixon in China, and we're like, that's kinda similar, like, in in terms of my timeline because that like, when Nixon went to China, it was, like, nineteen seventy something. And then somebody was kinda the last twenty years wrote an opera about it. Heggie. Right. I guess Heggie. Wait. No. That was a different opera. I don't think it was Heggie. Anyway Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. But it was just it was really

interesting because Right. I had actually never watched anything about Nixon before. And my mom was sitting right there with me, and I guess the guy that was singing for Nixon did his homework because she was like, oh my gosh. Like, he'd like, his mannerisms, the way he walked, the way he would move, look at someone. He just really was apparently, really studied and just was giving off big Nixon vibes. So all that to say is but it didn't villainize him. It just placed them in the scene, be

like, this is what happened. This is what happened. Yeah. Well, I wonder if I wonder if partially also because we are we're unable to see and I'm not the first person to point this out. We're unable to see individuals who are standing in as avatars from our for our political enemies. We're unable to see them as human beings who just have a different view of the world. So I'll do both sides here just so that I can be accused of being fair, You know?

Because I care about that. If I am writing a play about the rise and fall of Barack Obama, I have to be empathetic to people that supported Barack Obama. Like, I have to see them as human beings. And I act and actually, they were not even people who supported him. I have to be empathetic to Barack Obama and write him as much of a as as as much of a human being making human decisions and suffering from human foibles as I possibly can. By the way, I also have to do that if I'm going to write a

play about Donald Trump. Like, I just I have to write Donald Trump as a real human being, not a caricature that shows up on some float and some protest in Germany while someone's burning a Tesla. Like, it can't it can't it can't be those things. Right? You have to figure out what is what is Trump what do Obama what does Obama what do they care about? What makes them human? Because as soon as you learn that, all of a sudden, everything then by really by care about, I mean, really care

about, not what the news is gonna tell you. The and this goes for both men. Right? Just like what what do they care about as human beings? What's important to them? What are their values? And as and even if you start listening to that verbiage change, all of a sudden, it it starts to sound like, you know, we're in we're reading a a leadership book instead of talking about politics. Like, oh,

maybe we need to revisit how we talk about politics. And I do not like I don't know why I feel the need to to make this, disclaimer. I don't like Trump. I don't like him. Every story I hear, I'm just like, I this man is our president, but I didn't particularly love Obama either. Like, you made some decisions, but I'm just like, You know? So it's like but but that's politics. Right? That doesn't mean

they're not Exactly. Doesn't mean they're, I don't know, gonna bring about the end of the world or save the world. This right there. Put a put a mark on that in here. No human being. No politician. No policymaker. No legislator. And I think that's really this idea is really tough that I'm about to say in our in our system of governance because we are a republican system of government, small r, based off of a constitution.

And that constitution, because we've expanded the agency and the ability of it to cover a number of different people that it was not originally meant to cover, or or the original intent of the founders was not that those individuals would be covered, but the the the the beauty and the horror of The United States is that we have pushed the boundaries of that document and stretched it beyond its original understanding from good or ill. And I can argue both sides of that.

And in doing so, we've changed the way that people think about their relationship to politicians. And that is fundamentally different, I think, than the way that people thought about their relationship to a politician during the time of the French revolution, during Bonaparte, during Louis the eighteenth. I mean, we we make claims in this country, political claims on both political

sides that a president is behaving like a king. We do. That's like a slur that you throw out to to slam a politician in The United States. But the fact that we even throw out that slur is indicative of the fact that we would all we are all trained to be in a system where we will not be ruled by a king. Instead, we will all democratically rule each other, and it's

hard to really empathize with people that you not hard. It has become increasingly difficult, let me frame it that way, to empathize with people who are our next door neighbors because we don't see them as we don't see them as people. So if your if your next door neighbor is voting for somebody and you don't understand why they're doing that and you don't have any empathy for them, then, of course, the political avatar is gonna be bringing about, to Kristen's point, the end of the world or

bringing about utopia now. Like, either one. Either apocalypse or utopia. It's never any I tell them I want this all touch. It's never in between. We can't hit the middle. We can't hit the middle. We they're gonna go utopia or we're gonna have an apocalypse. I guess, it's either. And I increasingly am not here for any of that. I increasingly need us to hit the middle. Just hit the middle. Well, it's it trying to keep this vague enough and not get Yeah. Yeah. What, personal or start

condemning people. Keep it vague. I've already let let all the condemnation come out of my mouth. You keep it vague. Right? No. I just I think that's that's kinda what it consistently comes back to and Yeah. Is is letting people be human. But see them as humans before you see them as whatever they voted whoever they voted for or whatever their what is it? Whatever their party designation is. Like, oh my gosh. Even just saying that reminds me of, like, v for vendetta. Like, like, hey.

Like, both sides are, like, this close to becoming the thing that they're accusing the other side of becoming. And it's like, guys, we're all we're all in this together. Thank you, Zephyr. I am just a witness. We got one we got one planet. We need to make it last as long as we can. We're all humans. Like, that's if you zoom out enough if you if you zoom out enough say, I think Go ahead. The connection is a little wonky again.

No. No. No. No. No. No. You're no. You're okay. No. You're alright. This time, it's not on this time, it's not on my end. My my my Oh. Or your Is it mine? Tip top. No. You might be yours. It might be mine. No. I think that after twenty five years, I think that the American public has only about twenty five years of, like, solid, like, ability to stand in a corner like two four year olds and hit each other in the face. We've only got about twenty five years of that in us. And then we need a

break. And I think I do. I think we are at the end of the and this is one of the assertions that I'm making on this podcast. I think we are. We're at the end of the fourth turning. We're at the end of we're exhausted. We've we've beaten each other into submission. We reached sort of the high watermark of all this nonsense in 2020. Between between March of twenty twenty and January of twenty twenty one, we did we reached the high watermark. If anything was gonna happen that was gonna

happen, it would have would have happened in that period. And it didn't, for a whole variety of reasons that I don't need to go into today, but it didn't happen. And now we're all exhausted. We're like drunks that, like, are now waking up, and they're the hangover is kicking in, and we're like, oh, dear god. We're, like, looking around going, oh my god. I do? This place up. What did I do? I gotta clean this place up. That was a hell of a party. It was a real rager.

Yeah. Yeah. And we can't go down the street to, like, go to another party. There's no way downstairs to go. They're too embarrassed. Too embarrassed. Like, this is we're having we're getting ready to have the collective. I think over the next five years, we're getting ready to have the collective, we're never gonna drink again moment. Right. And I love that moment after a terrible hangover. You're like, oh my god. This is terrible. I'm never gonna drink again.

Never. And never is, like, you know, till next Sunday or next Friday or whenever. But, but in the terms of a nation state, it that that could maybe be, that could maybe be another twenty five year long gap. So it will take twenty five years off from beating each other in the face. And by that point, I'll be dead, and it won't matter. So no one will remember any of this anyway. Okay. I like the idea that you said there about writing to your target market and humanizing people. I love that.

In particular, because we're going to pick up with the chapter. I love the title of this chapter as we turn back to the book. The Corsican ogre. I love the title of that chapter. Oh my gosh. Because I wanna talk about I wanna talk about a person who who we failed to humanize. We in the West failed to humanize, up until about the last eighty years because there was another boogeyman that then showed up during that recent unfortunate events in, in Europe.

And, of course, the death of a hundred million people in the twentieth century sort of dwarfed anything that this guy did. So, so he was replaced by a bigger bogeyman, a guy named Which made it okay to humanize Bonaparte. Right. Made it okay to humanize him. Yeah. It's fine. Yeah. It's fine. He's just he's a short dude who, like, has his hands in his pockets all the time. Right? He's a short dude, funny dude in a painting. Right?

What possible problems could he have started? That that just kind of, that just hit me kinda with a a new thought. We're like, what has to happen next that will let humanity collectively go? We can humanize Hitler now. Oh. I don't even I don't even I don't are we still gonna be here? Is that will we even survive that event? So I don't I don't think it will be so I'm in my mid forties. Right? I'm in the youngest and of the oldest generation that won't allow that to happen. The

youngest and the oldest generation. That won't let that happen. Yeah. Yeah. That won't allow that to happen. We're all still kicking around here. We're all still like, no. My grandfather, my grandmother, my Right. We're we're still those. We still have those people. Mhmm. I have I have 19 year olds. I have a 19 year old. I have I have a 14

year old, soon to be 15, and I have an eight year old. I look at my eight year old, and I go, Not him specifically, but, like, anybody that's in that cohort, they have zero connection emotionally to the twentieth century at any kind of level. And when I'm gone, that's the last connection to, as the Gen Z kids say these days, the nineteen hundreds. Yeah. That's your last connection to the nineteen hundreds. Okay. That's fine. That's fine. And I this this is that's fine.

Whatever. Whatever. Get out of my face. Get get away from me. Never mind that it was the end of the 1900. So there's a whole century there. I might as well be a hundred years old. I just tell people when they lay that on me. I just tell people when they lay that on me. Like, I ran across somebody the other day. She's like, oh, I was born in 02/2005. And I went Oh, every time somebody asks me what my daughter's birthday is, I'm just like, mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Exactly. And so to answer your question,

I think I think it's going to be one of those things. You're already you've already sort of seen this with, like, communism and Stalin. Like, nobody ever references Stalin as, like, a really bad guy even though Stalin killed a hell of a lot more people than Hitler. Let's just be factual about that. Just the numbers alone. Right? Right. Or Mao or Pol Pot. Like, I was talking with somebody the other

day, like, who went to Vietnam and Cambodia, and he's like, oh, yeah. You can still see evidence of Pol Pot's massacres in Cambodia still walking around today. And the fact is if you don't have an emotional connection to that history these days, you're not going to clear it with respect, I guess, is maybe the term I'm looking for, or care. Care is probably better. And then after that that. Yeah. Yeah. And then after that, like, just the door and the floor just opens

up, and now you're, like, you're you're on your way to that. Is how humanity repeats itself. Correct. Yeah. You're on your way down to some abyss down there. Except the except the next time, they'll have AI. So they'll be able to kill people at a lot a lot better, a lot higher level with more with greater justification, and it'll be probably be harder to stop. And, like, again, I look at my eight year old, and I'm like, you guys you guys can't screw it up, because that's maybe where it starts.

So on that down, no. Yep. I bet. I do. Back to chapter the Corsican ogre. I'm gonna read a few pages in here, just to sort of get the flavor of the fear of Napoleon. Louis the eighteenth, on seeing this ravaged face, thrust away the table before which he was sitting. So, Villefort has arrived. He came on the horses two horses. He's gonna deliver a message to, to the king. The the the baron is is hanging out, and it's a it's a whole

thing. So, yeah, so Louis the Louis the eighteenth, I'm seeing this ravaged face thrust away the table before which he was sitting. What is wrong with you, Baron? He cried. You seem thunderstruck. Do your troubled appearance and hesitant manner have anything to do with what Monsieur de Blancos was saying and what Monsieur de Villegas has just confirmed to me? Meanwhile, Monsieur de Blancos had made Blancos had made an urgent movement towards the baron, but the courtier's terror got the

better of the statesman pride. In such circumstances, it was preferable for him to be humiliated by the prefect of police than to humiliate him in view of what was at stake. The sire, the baron stammered. Come come, said Louis the eighteenth. At this, the minister of police gave way to an onrush of despair and threw himself at the king's feet. Louis the eighteenth stepped back, raising his eyebrows. Won't you say something? He asked. Oh, sire.

What a terrible fortune. What will become of me? I shall never recover from it. Bonjour, Louis the eighteenth said. I order you to speak. Sire, the usurper left Elba on February and landed on March. Where? The king asked urgently. In France, sire, in a little port on the Gulf Of Leon near Antibodies. You circulated in France near Antibodies on the Gulf Of Juan, near Hundley from Paris on March 1, and it is only today, March, that you inform me of it? Bon bonjour. What you are telling

me is impossible. Either you have been misinformed or you are mad. Alas, siren, it's only too true. Louis the eighteenth made a gesture of inexpressible anger and alarm, leaping to his feet as though a sudden blow had struck him simultaneously in the heart and across the face. In France, he cried, the usurper in France, but was no one watching the man? Who knows? Perhaps you were in league with him. Sigh, no. Duke de Blacas cried out. A man like Mongeau Dandre could

never be accused of treason. We were all blind, sire, and the minister of police was as blind as the rest of us, nothing more. But, Vilfor said, then he stopped dead in his tracks. I beg your forgiveness, sire, he said with a bow. My ardor carried me away. I beg your majesty to forgive me. Speak, Speak without fear. You alone warned us of the disease. Help us to find the cure.

Sire, Vilfred said, the usurper is hated in the South. It appears to me that if he risks his chances there, we can easily rouse Provence and Languedoc against him. No doubt we can, said the minister, but he is advancing through Gap and Cicerone. Advancing, advancing, said Louis the eighteenth. Is he marching on Paris then? Minister of police said nothing, but his silence was as eloquent as a confession. What about the Dauphine?

The king asked Villefort. Do you think we could raise resistance there as in Provence? Sire, I regret to inform your majesty of an impalatable truth. Feeling of the is not nearly as favorable to us as it is in Provence at La Gaudor, the mountain dwellers of Bonapartes, sire. So his intelligence is good, Louis the eighteenth muttered. How many men does he have with him? I do not know, sire, said the minister of police. How do you mean you

don't know? Did you forget to find out that detail? It is a trivial matter, of course, he added with disdainful smile. I was unable to learn it, sire. The dispatch contained only the news of the landing and the route taken by the usurper. And how did you come by this dispatch? The minister hung his head and blushed brightly. By the telegraph sire, he stammered. Louis the eighteenth stepped forward across his arms as Napoleon would have done. By the way, pause. I love that little touch

there that he puts in there. I love that. That's that's a good literary touch there. Back to the book. You mean, he said, going pale with rage that seven armies overthrew that man. A divine miracle

replaced me on the throne of my fathers after twenty five years of exile. And during those twenty five years, I studied, sounded out, and analyzed the men and the affairs of this country of France that was promised to me only to attain the object of all my desires and for a force that I held in the palm of my hand to explode and destroy me? It is fate, sire, the minister muttered, realizing there's such a weight. The light in the scales of destiny was enough to crush a man. So it

is true what our enemies say about us? Nothing learned, nothing forgotten? If I had been betrayed as he was, then that might after all be some consolation, but to be surrounded by people whom I have raised to high office who should consider my safety more precious than their own because their interests depend on me, people who were nothing before me and will be nothing after, and to perish miserably through inefficiency and ineptitude. Oh, yes, You are right indeed. That

is fate. The minister was crushed beneath the weight of this terrifying indictment. Wiped a brow damp with sweat and Vilfor, smiled to himself because he felt his own importance swelling To fall, Louis eighteenth continued, having immediately realized the depth of the gulf above which the monarchy was tottering. To fall and to learn of one's falls

with the telegraph. Oh, I should rather mount the scaffold like my brother, Louis the sixteenth, than to descend the steps of the two reason this way driven out by ridicule. Bonjour. You do not know what ridicule means in France, yet if anyone ought to know, sire, the minister humbled sire, for pity's sake, the king turned to the young man who was standing motionless at the back of the room following the progress of this conversation on which hung the fate of

the kingdom. Come here, Come. Tell this gentleman that it was possible, to have foreknowledge of everything despite his ignorance of it. Sire, it is materially impossible to guess at plans which that man had hidden from everybody. Materially impossible? Those are grand words, Monsieur. Unfortunately, grand words are like grand gentlemen. I have taken the measure of both. Material impossible. For a minister who has officials, his offices, his agents, his informants, and CHF1,500,000 of secret

funds to know what is happening 60 leagues off the coast of France? Come come. Here is this gentleman who had none of the resources at his disposal. This gentleman, a simple magistrate who knew more than you did with all your police force and who would have saved my crown if, like you, he had the right to operate the telegraph. Ding. I freaking love that whole

entire exchange. It is it is excellent, And it lays out in real palpable ways for us the level of apprehension and fear and, I mean, just, yeah, outright fear that the elites had in France of what this man Napoleon might do upon his return. When I read this, I immediately thought of the scene because I am a I'm a cinematic guy in my head. I thought of the scene in The Wire when Omar and his trench coat and if it's a great show, you've never watched it, it doesn't matter.

Go go check it out on HBO twenty years ago when Omar is walking down the drug alleys in Baltimore, and all of the drug dealers see him coming. We're dealing on the corners, and they all scream out from windows, doorways, and they scatter like rats while they're screaming. They scream, Omar's coming. Omar's coming. And he's just walking down the street in his trench coat with his shotgun singing, whistling farmer in the Dell, which is, like, great. And it's almost exactly that. Napoleon's

coming. Everybody better get up and get moving. Get up off the step. Get up off the stoop. You better go hide. That bug is coming. To Chris' point earlier before we read that section, it has been over two hundred years, since Napoleon was astride the earth as a great man. And we do underestimate how much of a boogeyman he was for the the the aristocracy and the elites of Europe and how much the

common people loved him. Napoleon ushered in because of his actions and his behavior and the way that he held himself in France and the way that he was taught not taught, but the way he was thought about, he held himself up and was turned into, the first avatar, this idea, at least in the modern West, of the great man of history theory. Thomas Carlyle laid out this theory, and I'm going to read this quote directly. It

came from my research around this. Universal history, the history of what man has accomplished in this world is at the bottom of the history of the great men who have worked here. They were leaders of men, these great ones, the modelers, patterns, and in a wide sense, creators of whatsoever the general mass of men could drive to do or

attain. All things that we see standing accomplished in the world are properly the outer material result, the practical realization and embodiment of thoughts that dwell in the great men sent into the world. The soul of the world, whole world's history, it may justly be considered were the history of these. It is only very recently that we have abandoned in the West the theory of the great man of history. I think that was one of the things that died in the horror,

the bombed out horror of World War two. Because if you have great men, they can destroy. And, of course, if they can destroy with great weapons, they could destroy much more effectively.

But all things that are old become new again. And I do think whether we like it or not, whether we think we're sophisticated or not, and whether our our class and intellectual betters think they're ready or not, I do believe the great man of history, theory is astride the West yet again, much to the elites dismay. So the question I have is, are we in America ready for the great men and women of the Earth, as Carlisle might say, to move history yet again?

Are you ever ready? Are you ever ready for something like that? Like, just it just I feel like like I think you I think you get ready ecumenically and emotionally. It's like I mean, was anybody ready for Trump? No. No one was ready for that. No one's ready. And, actually, I will tell you I'll tell you. Love him, hate him. Whatever he's doing. Love him, hate him. Ready for that? Like, was anybody

Win that? When when I wasn't ready for him to actually win. I was in Germany, and they were like, When when when the bullet missed taking his brains out Oh my gosh. Pennsylvania, I my wife I was working in the yard, and my wife was like, oh, you gotta come see this. And she showed me the video, and I literally I've never had this experience happen in well, no. Not never. There's only one other time I had this experience happen in my life. That was September 11.

And I actually, like, felt the earth move. I was like, oh, oh, this is a thing. Now we're into something else now. Like, people are calling it a vibe shift. I I don't wanna be as as I don't wanna be as flip with it as that. It it's more than that. It's you don't have a guy like that damn near get his head blown off and something not happen afterward. You just don't have it. There's just there's just rules to the game. This isn't this isn't Vietnam. There are rules. Like, there's rules to this

game. Like, and and, apparently, I guess, we're on the other side of Mark Andreessen, the investor. He was interviewed on Joe Rogan afterward about a month or two after this happened, and he said, we're in another timeline now. The timeline forked. Like, there's a timeline where, like, Donald Trump got shot, and the people living there, they're not having a good time. And we're in a timeline where that didn't happen. And he's like, thank god the timeline he didn't say

god, but it's a good thing the timeline forked. Because if it hadn't, we'd be we'd be in something else. So are we ready? No. I don't I don't I I think I think we no. I don't think we're ready, but I think it's easier for people who, like, have a deep belief in faith or deep spirituality to kind of accept that this is, like, something that's going to happen eventually. But I think for people who are just floating around with no anchor, no. They're not ready. Oh, yeah. They're they're

surprised. They're surprised. Well and I you know, as someone who, you know, was raised, like, with a pretty strong faith and have always been pretty pretty deeply spiritual, just kind of choosing that over and over. But, in in various paths, it's it is. Having that anchor is very interesting. I think those are the people. The people who don't have the anchor are the ones that are more prone, typically.

I can think of some exceptions already, but typically are the ones who are like, the world's gonna end, or this guy is gonna be our savior, and be like, neither. Neither of those things are true. Like, it just but but, you know, great men and women yeah. It's interesting. I almost feel like we're not allowed. And kinda to your point, what you said, earlier about, the favor of the idea that impersonal mysterious forces that are not, like, in our control necessarily,

which, yeah, that is a very interesting perspective. I was almost yeah. So it feels like almost like we're not allowed to even say that great men and women can change anything, which is an interesting thing to hear come out of my mouth considering that I feel like those very same people would be like, no. Of course, we have free will and can change things. They're the same people that are like, nothing will ever change. Everything is awful and always will be. I'm just like,

well, hold on. Oh, yeah. Decide. Decide. You cannot have both. This I don't think these things Well, I think I think people have bought the lie that human beings are so you're seeing a lot of this in I already mentioned artificial intelligence once, and I'm gonna mention it again. You're seeing this in the conversations around AI. So we are doing exactly what I thought we would do. We are we are anthropomorphizing what is in

essence a hopped up computer program on steroids. And, yes, I am minimizing it on purpose for what I'm about to say because because we have bought into the lie as a culture ever since Alan Turing proposed the Turing test. We've bought into the why as a western culture in general and an American culture in deeply particular. I don't think the Europeans buy into it as much as we do, and the Japanese are all the way the hell over on the other end.

So we're weirdly in the middle on this. But I think in America, in the West, we have bought into the lie that human beings are just machines, just computational. There's no difference between me and a computer. And the problem is or not the problem. The in order for me to be great, I have to believe that I'm more than just a mechanical a biomechanical series of impulses that are just reacting to things. I have a friend who's kind of on the other side where he we we were talking

about this. It was a maddening conversation for me because everything it's like, oh, he like, I was like, humans are different from animals. Like, we just are. Oh, yeah. Like, yes, we are animals, but we are, like, almost like animals plus. Mhmm. Yeah. Exactly. But because you cannot prove or measure consciousness or the soul, like, there's no empirical you can't do that empirically. He was like, we're just we're just all we're just animals. And I'm like

Maybe you're an animal. What? And we're like, I tried to, like, find I'm I'm when when I'm debating with this guy, we're like, he's, like, uber logical, and I am like, I'm an artist. Yeah. So emotions and, like, instinct. And I was like, but this doesn't make sense, and I can't give you the logic that you'll

accept Right. That that will help you. And so that that like, to this it's almost like they're they're even though they believe different reasons why they both end up at the same thing of why we can't do anything about the way we are. I'll give you I'll give you a a a tip for getting for getting through those kinds of arguments. I'm gonna help you out. No. Really. I am this is gonna be very helpful. Have him explain art logically. He can't. Give me give me the evolutionary biological reason for

a painting. I think he's we'd sorta touched on that, and it was it had something to do with, like, finding a mate and procreation. Except except except people who are single and never find mates and never procreate don't make paint. I mean, they make just make painting. The the the yeah. Let me just I don't remember. By the way by the way, he'll try to divide it into the macro and the micro. We'll try to get you caught in details. Well, then he sent me a video of, like, a a a a, what is it?

A, an elephant painting. And I was like, he's like animals do art. Animals invent things. Like, what is it? Monkeys, fashion, tools. It was like No. Okay. But, dude, like, monkeys aren't going to space. And he was like, why would they need to go to space? I was like, why did we need to go to space? We didn't need to go to space. Right. Like, why do we need to do anything? And don't tell me it's mating. Don't tell me don't tell me we built a

giant rocket to go to the moon just to get laid. That's not no. Sorry. Sorry. It's just No. It was just it was a very, like, maddening. And maddening is the word. Maddening. I'm just like, I I don't know how to I don't I we just have to stop. I think we just have to stop. I don't know I don't know how to continue this conversation without exploding. Well, and the and the and the the the misunderstanding, I think. Because I've had those kinds of conversations with folks as well.

The kinds of the kinds of anchoring of assumptions, and this is the other thing. It lies deep underneath this.

So underneath the assumption of the great man of history theory from Carlyle, who again based this off of what he saw Napoleon doing in Europe, okay, and others, the the the the understanding of that comes from a space where and we can't throw this out with the bathwater, where it comes from understanding of how Christianity has worked through the loaf of humanity like yeast for the last two thousand

years in the West. And the people who talk about a lack of free will want to throw the Christianity away, but they still want to have all of the results from Christianity. Yes. And so the other challenge question that I often have for folks who don't believe in free will is, okay. I'm going to come to your house and eat you. Seriously, I'm gonna show up tomorrow, and I'm gonna eat you. And I don't want you you can't claim murder. You

can't give me any you just can't. Because the idea of murder comes out of a Christian ethic that comes from a space that says you can choose to eat your neighbor or choose not to eat your neighbor, and here's why. But you don't believe we have free will. So the next time I have an impulse to be hungry, I'm just gonna show up to you, and you better, like, have your arm ready. Now that pulls up a cold. That, oh, that that pulls up people's people cold.

Because here's the thing, they're then going to argue from a position of natural law or from a position of something like that. Again, all those things come out of Christianity. All those assumptions come out of Christianity. And so the thing with with with the people who are anti not anti, but don't believe in free will or who are more maybe atheistic in their in their pursuit is and this is a challenge question I have for

all of them. And if any of them are listening here, it's a challenge question I have for all of you. Explain to me how the right and wrong morality works without appealing to Christianity. And by the way, you can't appeal to Buddhism or Islam either. No religion. Appeal to no religion and tell me how this works. And you can't base it off of a philosophy either because a philosophy is narrow in its anchor. And, eventually, when you go all the way down, Nietzsche Nietzsche proved this, you wind

up in the bottom of an abyss. So, you know, those are the kinds of dynamics that we have to consider when we're answering this question. Short answer to your question is no. Because we don't believe it can happen. Right? The collectively, like, culturally. Right? Yep. No. It's gonna it's probably it's there's there's a dude on the scene who's already here, and it's felt like a slap in the face every time,

and people are mad. And so maybe the next one hopefully will feel less like a slap in the face, but I don't think it will because, really, it's the slap in the face that has that it's what it takes to get people to wake up. And as much as I would love to do it in the softer, more artistic way, that's clearly not working because nobody will buy my shit anyway. So, yeah, no one will buy your stuff. Well, that's okay. No one buys my stuff either. It's fine. Fine. It's fine. This is not for

Hollywood. So I'm not weird listening to anyone who's left writing for Hollywood. Those writers aren't weird listening to either. Okay. I mean, they're getting paid well, hopefully. Right. Yeah. Well Well They better be getting paid well. So okay. So in thinking about this, though, like, the idea that we can we can be people who make a make a dent in the universe. This is what drives entrepreneurship. Right? This is what drives, like, weird, crazy

entrepreneurial people. Right? And so I do think it is still deeply embedded in the American spirit. I I I think I I think back of I think of, like, Patrick Henry, right, who was invited to the I always tell the story. He was invited to the constitutional convention by Thomas Jefferson and didn't wanna

go because he smelled a rat at the constitutional convention. He was like, no. He he liked the articles of Confederation because he just wanted to go to, like at the time, he just wanted to go to, like, Kentucky, which was the West, and just be left alone. Like, there's that strong streak in America. And and, you know, the problem for us in the twentieth century is we ran out of West to go to, and so we just turned, like, internally and started just eating each other.

If you don't like your neighbor, speaking of what we're talking about in the last section, you have no empathy for them. It used to be just you could pack up your Conestoga wagon and just drive that way, and you just go get new neighbors. Or maybe you don't. Maybe you get, like you you cordon off, like, 50 acres in New Little Nebraska, and the only people you gotta deal with are the native people who've been there for a while and are really upset that you're there. But beyond that, like, I mean,

like, it's fine. Like, you just you just go. You you just go. Like, you just you're you're out. Right? Yep. And I think that deep streak still lives in Americans. It's that streak of think about it. All the people who came to this country were people that wanted to be left alone from, like, other places.

That's so we're the descendants of people who just want you to just I'm not gonna say a word, but just leave it alone, which then allows people because the the next thing from there is if I'm left alone, then I could be a great man. I I could be a great man or woman. All I need is a plot of land, and now I'm a king. I'm a king of my own plot of land, and ain't nobody gonna come to pull this back to the wire. Ain't nobody gonna come along and move me off my block. Yeah. You go around ahead.

You try. Go try try to move me off my block. Watch watch what happens. Someone go get clapped. And I don't care if that, like, if that's in I think our American attitude is it doesn't matter if that plot of land is in Nebraska. I'm picking up Nebraska a lot lately. Let's say Iowa. It's in Iowa. Or if that plot of land is the backstoop in Baltimore. This is my spot. You are not moving me off of this. I can be great in this spot. I don't have to be great for the whole global world. I'm

not Napoleon. I don't have to be that guy, but I can take ideas from Napoleon, which is part of the conceit of this podcast. I could take ideas from Napoleon, and I can use them use those ideas, to what to make myself great and use my use those ideas to make my back suit better or to make my plot of land in Iowa better. But I don't have to, like, rule the world. I just have to rule my own plot of land. I think that's deeply embedded in the American psyche.

And I don't think I don't think And the king can't come and take it from me. Correct. And if or if the king tries to, there's gonna be a real problem. Not for me, for the king. There's gonna be a problem for the king. Like, as I used to tell people before I got into fist fights and, like, when I was in when I was in in teenager, like, I hope you brought all your boys with you. I hope you brought everybody. I hope it's not just you. Because if it's

just you, well, you and me are gonna have a happy time. I hope you brought a bunch of backup. And that attitude also rubs up against free will. So the guy you're talking about that you're having an argument with about free will, I guarantee you, he thinks that, like, he may have a sign on his front yard that says, hey. It has no place here. I'm sure he does. He's one of those people. I'm sure he has that sign on his front yard or that there's no borders and whatever. Okay. It's actually not.

Believe it or not, this is this is very Oh, this is Yeah. This is very dear friends. It's very I'm casting aspersions in on someone I know nothing about. It's okay. It's okay. Normally, I would say the same thing, but it's like, actually Nope. Now we're back. Okay. So so yeah. I know. Yeah. So, but when I see in general, broad generalities, folks who speak or think in such ways, I often wonder how far does that go into your personal areas. Like, where exactly is the upper limit for you and your

because if there's no free will, then there is no upper limit. There's just, like, just just go to the sky. There's no upper limit. There's no basement, but there's also no upper limit. Right? There's no there's no bounded hierarchy. Right? But you aren't operating as if there's not a bounded hierarchy. You're operating as if there is a bounded hierarchy, and that comes from somewhere. And then only

in a bounded hierarchy can you truly have free will. That's a deeply philosophical idea that we don't have time to get into, but it's true when we walk it out as Americans, all the time. So, okay, Napoleon himself. So I we were talking before we had reported on this on this show that I had watched the Ridley Scott Napoleon movie. Are we are we just trying to make a softer, cuddlier Napoleon? I don't I I don't know. I don't I haven't read a bunch on on Napoleon. I do keep thinking of a

a a historical fantasy series that I just finished reading. It's by Naomi Novick, and it's called the Temeraire novels. Okay. It's like what if dragons were, you know, involved in, the the Napoleonic wars. K. And I love it. I love it. I I love fantasy. I love dragons. It it ticks all the boxes for me. You know, every nation has different dragons. Very, very, very, very interesting. But the main character actually encounters Napoleon multiple times. And it was really interesting. It was

talking about, like, humanizing the boogeyman. Just really like, he was I don't feel like she portrayed him as, like, cuddly and softer. Like, he certainly had his things kind of what we were talking about earlier, he certainly had his things that he cared about deeply and was, like, if you wanna say softer, emotionally invested in. Like, he he was very, like, she portrayed him as having very, strong passions, and conviction for what he was doing.

But at the same time, absolutely ruthless in his pursuit of achieving that end to to kind of, like, the, you know, the do do the ends justify the means? Right. She raises that question. And, I mean, the the main character is always like, no. No. These ends do not justify the means. But, but it still pops up. Right? It's it's clearly it's clearly a question there in the in in kind of the narratives just floating out there. She doesn't she doesn't what is it? She doesn't,

not ham fisted. It's not very heavy handed. It's nice and subtle. I love her writing. It's amazing. Okay. But yeah. So it just reminded me that Napoleon, and and humanizing him, but also, like, letting him be the guy that steamrolled across Europe. Right. Right. Well and and primarily because and I'm I'm a little bit of a military history guy. Like, he steamrolled across Europe because he fought in unconventional ways that no one

had predicted. So because warfare is so radically different than it was now, than it was two hundred years ago, it's hard for us to comprehend. But you had to literally stand within four feet of somebody to kill them with a musket. Right. Or you could stand Or stab them. Or stab them. Or you could mount up a cannon, you know, 200, three hundred, four hundred, five hundred yards away, and they had to get within range before you could blow them to smithereens.

And the vast majority of people in war didn't die from bullet wounds or even from, from, shrapnel or from cannonade. The vast majority of people in the wars of the eighteenth century died from botched mutations, gangrene disease, poor conditions, cholera, hunger, you know, all the things that drove, that drove Napoleon out of Russia, that show up in the winter. Why you don't go across the Ural Mountains or even try to. Anyway, whatever.

I'm sure someone will try again in another, like, fifty years, and it won't work then either. But Gosh. Sorry. Eddie Izzard has this special. It's called Dress to Kill, and it's it he comments on on history. And just that's his what is it? Napoleon tries to go to, I've got a good idea. I've got a good idea. I've got a good idea. It's, oh, it's cold. It's a bit cold. It's bit cold. And then, you know, Hitler does the same thing however many

years. I've got a different idea. I've got a different idea. Oh, it's the same idea. It's the same idea. Hitler had my wrist because he was a kid. Yeah. Yep. He just he comments kind of on Pol Pot and and Stalin, and he rattles off the numbers. And he's like, Hitler tried to kill people next door. Stupid man. You got it. Because they just all killed their own people. So we were just sort of fine with that. You don't. You gotta kill strangers. That's that's what we've learned. That's what Stalin

taught us. You gotta kill strangers. And you have to make it just you have to just sort of make it, sort of just it has to be a simple matter of just signing a piece of paper. Just sign a piece of paper, and they'll go have a martini. Like, this is this is how you have to do it. This is that bureaucrat we're gonna talk about bureaucracy here in a minute. Yeah. This is the bureaucratization of of of of behavior. So, anyway, so Napoleon, he was the guy who, like, figured out that,

oh, wait. If I just show up with troops here before anybody expects me, all of those other factors don't matter, right, or they matter less. And so he and this is part of Louis Louis the eighteenth's objection as well, even in the caricature of him that

Demas is bringing to the forefront. Every single one of the people who live through the Napoleonic era were caught back to the great man idea completely by surprise by his behavior because it violated, to paraphrase a phrase that's used about someone else recently, standards and norms of whatever it is that they thought was going to happen. And Napoleon just said, well, standards and norms are are

standards and norms only for this moment. Like, It was the ultimate sort of and and this is what a lot of folks are are like, but particularly in military history. The people who stand out are the ones who are, like, the who says people. Who says that it has to work this way? Who where is the committee meeting? I wasn't invited to that. Since I wasn't invited to the committee meeting, I'm gonna do whatever the hell I

want, and you people you people may do well. And they'll call me a military genius later when they're writing history books. Well, yeah. Like, I'm a I'm a civil war buff, and, like, everybody loves Robert e Lee, which is fine. And Lee was a good general from a from a tactician's perspective. He absolutely was a great tactician. Execution was a little weak, but he was great as a tactician. Right?

But Grant Grant was a strategist who was willing to do on the execution part what Robert e Lee wasn't willing to do. He was just willing to just dump people into Vicksburg and dump people into, into, Chancellorsville and these other big battles, in the American Civil War and realized that if you have numbers, then all the rest of it doesn't doesn't matter. Just how many people are you willing to put into the wood chipper to get what you want. And he sort of just

went with it. But but he also had Sherman, and Sherman was a great tactician. And Sherman was the guy who didn't wanna put people in the wood chipper. He would do it if he needed to, but he didn't want to. That wasn't his first, like, impetus. His first impetus was,

okay. Can we get the logistics here? Because if we can get the logistics right, if we can move the men and material in the correct direction and put them in the correct spot, again, just like Napoleon, before Lee shows up, Then maybe we don't have to dump as many people in the wood chipper as we think we would have. We can instead of dumping a hundred thousand in, we could only dump, like, 50. And it'll be fine. Like, we'll or 20, and we'll actually win. And

so that's the battle that's the thing in military. So you see that with Bonaparte too. You see, he was he was willing to put people in the wood chipper, but he didn't I don't think he was happy about it. He wasn't happy about losing Right. You know, he wasn't pleased about that, but that was the exigencies based on the technology he had. If he'd had a howitzer, he'd had he'd lost five guys, and that'd been it. He'd been fine. He's like, I have a howitzer. Like, what's the problem? Surrender.

So, by the way, in that book speaking of Howitzer. In that book, because I'm a Game of Thrones guy too. In that book, did, did Napoleon get his 500 ton dragon, or did they not give him a dragon? Oh, he got a dragon. Oh, he gets a dragon? Oh, well, Cecil C. There you

go. I'll Cecil C. There you go. Dragon. Well, then there you go. I mean, that She's she is also that I think do you know, kinda listening to what you'd say about, his unexpected tactics, She is kind of she, like, amplifies that because she just starts to bring she's she's a Chinese dragon, and so she starts bringing just completely different thoughts and and and ways of having dragons fight specifically, but also having dragons and humans work together in in

in ways that Europeans aren't doing yet. And so they just start stealing all of the I mean, I like this better. You might have sold me on this book. I like this better because usually what we'll do is we'll give, like, Nazis dragons, and they will, like, have them all living on the moon as, like, lizard people. Like, usually, that's the fiction that that we

get because World War two is, like, the thing in our head Yeah. Or whatever, collectively, although that is going out of the water as I said previously Yeah. Quite a bit. Vaster than I would have thought. But but I like this idea of going back and giving Napoleon a dragon. It's like giving him, like, Sun Tzu quotes and stuff. Like, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, she's gonna run a little Sun Tzu up the pole and up the ladder and see see what sticks. Yeah. Yeah. With

this, with this guy. Yeah. Okay. It's really interesting. The the way she kinda interweaves all of the the various, world cultures of the time, even though, like, they were starting to interact more regularly. But for the most part, we're like, no. You you stay over there. You stay over there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can come in on this port and only this port,

but please don't bring your shit over here. Well and, actually, weirdly enough, I think on the back end of all of this, we're gonna actually have more of that in the future over the next twenty five years, not less. And, again, these things ebb and flow. I can't say whether that will be a bad or a good thing. Right. But I do think we I think we've probably over indexed enough globalization

at this point. Mhmm. I think most people are tired of well, I think most people are tired of the direct we export and some of the direct we import. Yeah. So yeah. Alright. Let's round the corner here back to the book, back to Count of Monte Cristo. So, there is a meeting here that we're going to talk about. I'm gonna read specific pieces of this chapter, not the whole not the not the whole, like, chunk that I have set up here to think about.

This is after Villefort leaves the, leaves the king's presence and goes to his hotel. The chapter is chapter 12, father and son. M Nortier, for this was the man who had just entered, kept an eye on the servant until the door had closed. Then doubtless fearing that he might be listening in the antechamber, he went and opened it again behind him. There was no vain this was no vain precaution, and the speed of Germaine's retreat proved he was no stranger to the sin that caused the

downfall of our first parents. And then took the trouble to go himself and shut the door of the antechamber, returned and shut out of the bedroom, slid the bolt, and went over to take a bill for his hand. The young man, meanwhile, had been following these maneuvers with a surprise from which he had not yet recovered. How now do you know, dear Gerard, Ortea said, looking at his son with an ambiguous smile, that you do not appear altogether

overjoyed at seeing me? On the contrary, father, I am delighted that your visit is so unexpected that I am somewhat dazed by it. My dear friend, or to your continued taking a seat. I might say the same myself. How is this? You tell me that you are getting engaged in Marseille on the February 28, and on March, you are in Paris. If I am here, father, said Gerard, going across to you in North here, do not do not complain about it. I came for your sake, and this journey may perhaps save your life.

Indeed, said casually leaning back at the chair where he was sitting. Indeed, tell me about it, I am most curious. Have you heard about a certain Bonapartist club that meets in the Rue Saint Jacques? At Number 53, yes. I am its vice president. Father, I am amazed by your composure. How did you expect, dear boy, when one has been proscribed by the Montagnards, left Paris in a hay cart, and been hunted across the world ends of Bordeaux by Robespierre's bloodhounds? One is inured to most

things. So continue. What has happened to this club in the Rue Saint Jacques? What has happened is that general Quesnel has called to it, and that general Quesnel having left home at nine in the evening was pulled out of the same two days later. And who told you this fine story? The king himself. Well, now in exchange for your story, I have some news to tell you. Father, I think I already know what you are about to say. Ah, so you already know

about the landing of his majesty, the emperor. I beg you not to say such things, father, firstly for your own sake then for mine. I did know this piece of news. I knew it even before you did because over the past three days, I have been pounding the road between Marseille and Paris, raging at my inability to project, the thought that was burning through my skull and sent it 200 beaks ahead of me. Three days ago, are you mad? The emperor had not landed three days ago.

For no matter, I knew of his plans. How did you know? From a letter addressed to you from the Isle Of Elba to me. To you. I intercepted you in the messenger's wallet. If that letter had fallen into another's hands, father, you might have already been shot. Vilfor's father burst out laughing. It seems that the restoration has taken lessons from the empire and how to expedite matters.

My dear boy, you are being carried away. So where is this letter? I know you better than to imagine you would leave it laying around. I burned it to make sure that not a scrap remained. That letter was your death warrant. The death knell to your future career? Replied coldly. This is not gonna talk about the letter. They're going to talk about the king. Let's skip forward a little bit. And,

well, Monsieur Noussier makes this point. The king, I thought him enough of a philosopher to realize that there is no such thing as murder in politics. You know as well as I do, my dear boy, that in politics, there are no people, only ideas, no feelings, only interests. In politics, you don't kill a man. You remove an obstacle. That's all. You want to know what happened? I'll tell you. We thought we could count

on general Quesnel. He had been recommended to us from the Isle Of Elba. 1 of us went round to his house and invited him to attend a meeting at the Rue Saint Jacques where he would be among friends. He came and was told the whole plan, departure from the Isle Of Elba, the intended landing place. Then when he had listened to everything and heard everything and there was no more for him to learn, he announced that he was a royalist. At this, we all looked at

one another. We obliged him to take an oath, and he did so. But truly, with such little good grace, it was tempting God to swear in that way. In spite of all, however, we let him go freely, quite freely. He did not return home. What do you expect, my dear? You left us and must have taken the wrong road. That's all of murder. Really? You surprised me. You were deputy crown prosecution making an accusation founded on such poor evidence. Have I ever told you when you've done your job as a royalist

and had the head cut off one of our people? My son, you have committed murder. No. I have said very well, Monsieur. You have fought and won, but tomorrow, we shall have our revenge. And then a little later, slipping forth, Monsieur Noirtier proceeds to change his clothes, change his appearance, because the police the royalist police are pursuing him, and he says this. However incompetent the royalist police may be, they do know one dreadful thing, which is the description of the

man who visited General Quesnel on the day of his disappearance. Ah, the fine police know that, do they? And what's the description? Dark in coloring, black hair, side whiskers and eyes, a blue frock coat buttoned up the chin, the rosette of an officer of the legion of honor in his buttonhole, a broad brimmed hat, and a rattan cane. Uh-huh. They know that, Norcia. In that case, why do they not have their hands on this man?

Because they lost him yesterday or the day before on the corner of the Rue Coquelin. Didn't I tell you your police were idiots? Yes. But at any moment, they may find him. Yes. Yes. Well, said looking casually around him, yes, if the man is not worn. But, yet smiling, he has been

worn, and he will change his appearance and his clothing. At these words, he got up, took off his coat and cravat, went over to the table on which everything was lying ready for his son's toilet, took a razor, lathered his face with a perfectly steady hand, shaved off the compromising side whiskers, which had provided such a precious clue for the police. Villefort watched him with terror, not unmixed with admiration. Once he had finished shaving,

Nortier rearranged his hair. Instead of his black carat, he took one of a different color, which which was lying on top of an open trunk. Instead of his blue

button coat, he slipped on one of vousforks, which was brown and flared. In front of the mirror, he tried the young man's hat with its turned up brim, seemed to find that it suited him, and leaving his rattan cane where he had rested it against the fireplace, he took a little bamboo switch that the deputy prosecutor would use to give himself that offhand manner, which was one of his main attributes, and twirled it in his wiry hand.

How's that? He said, turning back to his astonished son after completing this sort of trick. Do you think your police will recognize me now? A no father, Samford Villefort. I hope not at least. And then, of course, walked right out of Villefort's hotel room, not detected at all by the royalist police on the corner. As a father, I love that little section right there. I love what's happening, the dynamics there between father and son.

As a father to two sons, one older significantly older, in his twenties, approaching his thirties, and then one is the little boy I mentioned earlier. It's, it's very interesting to read about that dynamic because I can see my oldest son. Behaving in a scandalized fashion if I were to be caught up in something that I would know I would be able to get out of. And then seeing seeing my youngest son who is still in the position

of believing that I am a hero. We had this conversation actually last night at bedtime, as of this recording. He was saying that, if, if he ever got in trouble, he would there's only one person he would want to have his back, and that's dad. Aw. Well, this will last for a little while. Wait till about twelve. Right. That'll all go away. Yeah. Or no. It won't go away. It will shift and change. It will shift and change. They still want dad to have his back just like Vilfor

did, Except it'll change. Right? And I'll still be able to surprise my son. Like Noirtier does. The entire book. That just continues. So there's couple of different things happening in here, and we didn't get to this in the last episode about bureaucracy and self serving behavior. But from every level with the royalist, right, I even even in the example in the king's court, in Louis the eighteenth's court, right, they are stuck in the bureaucrats. They're stuck in being self serving and

venal. They're looking for a man with side whiskers. So, of course, if there's no man with side whiskers, they're not gonna bother the dude. They are not allowing people to use the telegraph because god forbid, someone used the telegraph, and they miss important information. This is the challenge of bureaucratic self interest that arises in every generation, either at the individual level or the state level. How can leaders avoid

the pull of becoming thoughtless bureaucrats, Kristen? How can they what can they take from all of what we've read today, honestly, and not wind up either wind up more like Villefort and less like or maybe wind up more like. Right? Like, how how do they make those how can they rise above the systems that they are in that are the ones that provide them their daily bread? Because it's really hard to do, I would imagine. Right? And I think it's hard to do, I think, because,

oh, gosh. Trying to figure out how to, articulate this kinda succinctly, but maybe not. My first my like, the probably the easiest way, and I think most maybe most guys are not going to like this answer. Have a heart. Have a heart. Would I need that? Why would I need that? I look at the size of my heart. Right? They're people too. They, like everybody is a person. And then also remember that if you don't like it's almost like there's this underlying fear. Not almost. It's like a base

instinct. Right? The scarcity. I have to be grabbing what I need because if I don't, I won't get it. Right? And that, I think, is part of what leads to all of the self serving. Like, if if I'm not gonna look out for me, no one will. And I think there is, like, a middle road that yes. You know? Because because there there's extreme there's the other extreme as well. Just like give it all away and let people walk over you. And and and, you know, what is

it? Like, recommend your your coworker for the promotion instead of you because, of course, they deserve it too and blah blah blah. Like, that's not what I'm talking about either. Like, whatever you earn, take what you earn. Mhmm. Right. But don't be a dick. Right. It just kinda goes back to, like, you know, these are gonna be Christian themes. We're gonna treat people how you wanna be treated. Like, take care of your people. They'll take care of you. That's how you earn loyalty.

You care about them. So okay. Remember I said before, I I I like Game of Thrones, or at least I like some of the things that come out of Game of Thrones. Because, like, to me, that's like like, I watched a little bit of that show, my wife and I did. And, every time I would watch it, I was like, oh my god. This is like organizational behavior one zero one. Like, it's it's like like, if I was to get to you if I was gonna write a show, this is what I would write.

The the character in their little thinker, right, is a great line in there, at least the TV show. Great line in there. It says chaos is a ladder. Ladder. Mhmm. They named one of these little pieces that, and it's just it's an incredible piece. Oh. Oh, okay. What does that mean? Because people don't understand what that means. What does it mean chaos is a ladder? I mean, you can use it. You can use chaos.

If you have if you have the, what is it, the presence of mind while everybody else is losing their shit and, like, what is it? I mean, kind kinda what I was talking about, like, going like, letting their baser instincts drive them. But if you can if you can be like, I will be fine and use this wonderfully big brain that we have and just stay

present, then you can % use chaos. And it comes up in in Calle Monte Cristo, In the chaos, like, ensuing after Napoleon, like, kind of comes back but then falls again, like, the Right. Hundred days. The people in power see a big turnover, and it's just crazy. It's just crazy right there. And some of the people that just keep their wits about them Mhmm. And have few moral qualms with playing both sides, climbed that ladder during that chaos. Right. And, like, when we

hopefully, you know, the next episode, we'll see when we get to discuss this. You know, we'll see how just how far, v four was able to climb in in that insane chaos. Well, not only v four, but well, not only v four, but also Dante's. Right? So during this time where this Not just climbs it in a very different way, though. He does. He does. But you know what? He climbs it nonetheless. Like, he has to climb that internal chaos to even That's true. It is a different yeah. Yeah.

He has to climb that ladder because if he doesn't, he's not getting out of that dungeon. Like, he not getting out of that hole. He's gonna die in that hole, which, by the way, was the whole point is to put you in a hole where you're gonna die. Yeah. And the the the point of and the the the timelessness of the Count of Monte Cristo is that whether it's internal or external, you you have no if you want to be a great man or woman, you have to climb that ladder. There's no option to, like, not play.

And I think, a lot of us get distracted on shoulds. It shouldn't be this way. This shouldn't be happening. This isn't right. Blah blah blah. I'm like, okay. Maybe that's true. Maybe may just even if we could all agree on one moral code, which we can't, but But even if we could, maybe we could just all agree. This shouldn't be happening. Okay. But it is. So stop wasting your energy on that this should not be happening. What are you gonna do about it?

There's a difference between I've I've noticed this over the last quarter, you know, last quarter of this year, of 2025. There is a difference between people who explain who are seeking the why, which is the should people. Why is this happening? Why is this happening? Because at the bottom of it is this shouldn't be happening. I'm looking for, you know, the way to get out of this versus the what people. The what people are

the people who are climbing the ladder. What's the next step I have to take? What's the next step I have to take after that? What's the next step I have to take after that? And if you're mired in the whys and in the shoulds, you're never gonna climb the ladder with the whats. Right. But if you are listening to this and you find yourself, well, I'm screwed because I am a y person, just hear me out. I am also a y person.

That's that's where my brain goes. Okay? But and and I think it becomes a strength when you can combine them. Right? So you can't get mired in the whys and the shoulds because, again, that's just a phenomenal waste of energy. You have to, like, keep keep your brain on, like, the concrete. It's like the what's the facts. Like, how do we make it through? Kind of like the businesses that made it through COVID and the ones that didn't. Right. Right? I was teaching voice at the time

and which was, like, nobody was singing. Nobody was singing. Nobody was performing. I was literally, my job was illegal. Right. Yeah. So, like but and, you know, to to Yeah. Yeah. Concede a point. I'm no longer singing professionally. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. But I did buy a music business. So, you know, you just pivot. Right? You pivot, and you figure out where am I supposed to be? What am I supposed to be doing? A music

business that did survive COVID somehow. A music teaching business, which is just like it was so anyway, all that to say is you don't don't do not despair. If you find yourself being a why person and very preoccupied with the shoulds, it's okay. You can you can not only, like, let that rattle around, and then you can let it go and then move on to the what's, but you can also bring it and so that they team up together. And then, you know, with your powers combined, you can do many, many good

things. Well and and for all the what people out there, ruthless forward action will get you places for sure. That's what Napoleon bet on. He bet on ruthless forward action. And you will be able to bulldoze over the why people, for sure. For sure. For a while. For a while. Right. For a while. My only word of caution would be the very same people that you bulldoze going up the ladder, are the ones that you're going to meet on the way down if you slip. And you will slip. You

will make a mistake. It will happen. And the people that you stepped on going up the ladder will kick you a little further down, if they can, if you give them the opportunity to or if they are provided the opportunity to. And, again, this has nothing to do with right or wrong. This is not about a moral should or an ethical ought. No. That's just the crabs in a bucket. This is the crabs in the bucket. This is just a state of nature. Right? This is who people are.

Okay. So last turn. Let's turn the corner here. Let's close out for today. I don't believe anymore well, I I never did anyway, but I really don't believe anymore. I'm not I'm not willing to philosophically entertain the idea of, like, personal impersonal, unknowable forces that just push on people and don't allow us to, act with agency, autonomy, or

even accountability. I think that that that the retreat to that is the sign of a passive aggressive individual, and and person who's looking for a little bit of lazy thoughtlessness, the ability to hide and just merely exist. And in our time, it's it's shocking to me the number of thoughtless bureaucrats we have who seem to be taken surprise first need to be taken by surprise by the return of history. Not just great men or if we don't wanna call them great, just men

and women in general. They seem to be taken by surprise by the people showing up, but they even seem to be taken even worse by surprise by the actions of these people, the whats that they are stepping into. And they don't really seem to know how to respond. Regular people who live regular jobs and work regular lives, who understand that if I don't get up and do something, nothing happens, which by the way, I used to say it when I was a very young

entrepreneur. If I don't get up every day and do something, nothing happens. That's it. Like, that's the metric of success. Regular people who understand this get it. But our leaders our leaders haven't gotten that lesson for a while or maybe thought they were too sophisticated to need to review it. But I think I think the lesson is, I think the lesson's returning, just in time for the next great turning in the West, which I

think we're right on the cusp of. I wouldn't necessarily call it a golden age because I have no idea what it will look like, but it is going to be something totally different than what we just went through. So that's my close. That's my final thoughts. We start this part of the count of Monte Cristo. When we return in our next episode on the count of Monte Cristo, we'll talk about Edmond Dante climbing out of that dungeon. A crazy religious

man claims to have some money. And what happens when the two of them get together? It's gonna be lit. Lit. As the kids tell me they say these days. Kristen, final thoughts as we as we close out today. I'm very I'm excited. I get like, as much as we've had two two what is it? Four hours four hours now of this conversation Yeah. Before this next part is, like, my favorite. So I'm just like, yes. Let. Gonna be off the chain, as I said, back in my day.

Back in the nineteen hundreds. I mean, yeah. I've definitely got, like, part of like, intellectually, I'm like, yeah. This stuff is all really cool, but where's Dante? Like, where's That's definitely part of the romantic. Be like, but the main character Well, we set him for a bit. I mean, he had to what I was saying but but but Dumont is building a world here. Right? He's in a world building in a world building mode. So even though he's building a world that everybody knows or everybody has a at

least his time, Everyone would have had their historical memory. He still has to take the time to do the work of the writer, the work of the creative to build this world. And I appreciate it. Honestly I remember, hearing one of my friends took it upon himself to read Moby Dick. And he was telling me that, you know, since at the time when Dickens was writing it, nobody knew anything about Melville. The ocean sorry. I'm so sorry. Melville. That's okay.

I said Dickens. I was like, is that Dickens? Anyway It's Melville. When when Melville was writing, nobody knew anything about, like, the ocean or marine biology or anything. Like, we didn't have just this inundation of knowledge. And so that all had to go with the book to, like, set it up because otherwise That's where you get, like Nobody keep, like like, chapters upon chapters about descriptions of whales, and you're like, you in a modern reader, you read that, and you're

like, oh, dear god. Like, why Why is there an encyclopedia here? Right. Right. So, I mean, it's and there's a little bit of that in in Cona Montecristo as well just because of the way you had to set it up for the readers of the time. Right. Yep. Well, you also see that in a war and peace, with, with Tolstoy. And and and, actually, it's not really as deep in war and peace as it was in, Anna Karenina, which I think is actually a better novel than War and Peace, but that's

either here nor there. I don't know if I consider War and Peace a novel. It is. It's a world. That's what it is. And then you also see that a little bit with, with Dostoevsky in, in the brothers, Caramazov, which we're going to we're gonna cover this this year on the, we're gonna go into that. We're gonna go into that, I'm gonna fall down that abyss. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It was with Dostoevsky down there. That's a good word for it. Yeah. I'm I'm taking somebody else with

you. I'm not taking you with me on that one. Yeah. Thanks. I'll probably be in my own abyss. It's called postpartum. Somebody somebody else has volunteered to go down that rabbit hole with me. You know? You don't need to you don't need to sign up for that.

Good. Well Yeah. Alright. Well, yes. Like I said, when we when we come back, we'll we'll turn the corner, and we will talk about, we'll talk about Edmund Dantes and, yeah, what it's like to be in a in a dungeon, you know, in, in France in the early, in the early nineteenth century. Alright. I'd like to thank Kristen Horn for coming on our podcast today. Always a pleasure. Yes. And with that, well, we're out.