Leadership Lessons From The Great Books - Dune by Frank Herbert w/Daniel A. Bentle & Ryan J. Stout

Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells and this is the leadership lessons from the great books podcast, episode number 123. And this episode today, we will cover a massive book

in the science fiction genre. It's a book that is so expansive, story that is so expansive that for some people, including the 2 people that we have here today to talk about the book, it sets the standard for world building and for understanding politics, economics, history, ecology, and even that hoary old subject that keeps rearing its ugly head in even our postmodern time, religion. Now this book was not on my radar or even our radar initially

as a book to cover on the podcast. However, when I talked with one of our cohosts today as a result of a random networking outreach conversation last year, his enthusiasm, his overwhelming enthusiasm for this book today and his knowledge of the underlying applications to leadership convinced me that it was worth consideration for all of you, and I

was not disappointed. And in the interest of full disclosure, I was exposed to this book for the first time at 9 years old and was not necessarily impressed by the content, and I moved on to Stephen King, Dean Koontz, and Peter Straub. And arguably, this was probably because the version that I was reading and that I was initially exposed to was printed in tiny 9 point font type, which, of course, makes it intimidating for any 9 year old.

Today, we will be covering a book that is the basis for 2 recent films released in 2021 and 2023, respectively, and a film version that would rather be forgotten by most casual readers of the book or even hardcore fans released in 1984 and written and directed by, David Lynch. Today, we will be pulling leadership lessons from Dune by Frank Herbert.

Leaders, there are deserts everywhere from the deepest inner mind all the way to the outer limits, and the most arid desert in need of water is probably the one right between your ears.

Now today, we will be joined in our conversation by the man who pitched Frank Herbert's epic novel to me, the past VP of sales at Into Growth, a global leader in executive search and leadership development, and the current chief philanthropy officer at the Food Bank of Alaska, direct from deep in the wilds of the largest state in the union. And, yes, I am in Texas, and even we must bow to Alaska, Dan Dan I'm sorry. Daniel, Bentholt.

And of course, we will also be joined today by a longtime friend of the show coming back from episode number 110, where we covered night by Eli Weisel with Libby Unger, Ryan j stout. Hello, and welcome to the podcast, Dan, and welcome back, Ryan. How y'all doing today? Fantastic. Thank you. And yourself? I'm spectacular. I'm I'm always good. How are you doing, Dan? Incredible. It's, it's good to reconnect. It's hard to been hard hard to believe, Jason. It was a year ago.

I know. I know. We were just saying that before we hit, before we hit record. So I remember glowing after that, discussion on Dune for, like, the next 24 hours. So I'm someone who who who could who could see it. So Well, it's it's it definitely is. You definitely and that's, I mean, what I said there in the opening, you definitely convinced me that it was worth my time to consider this book and to kinda overcome my my 9 year old angst about it that I'm carrying around in my

forties. And, you know, it it turned out that, and we'll talk about the structure of the book and the content and all that kind of stuff coming up here. I only have one major complaint about book, honestly, and then that's it. Like everything else, I was I was fine with it. And then I went and I looked a little bit at Frank Herbert's life. We'll talk about literary life of Frank Herbert here in a little bit, as we often do on the podcast.

We have some grounding for the author as well. But in reading the book, I was fascinated by, just how just the depth of everything that was built into it, exactly what you exactly what you what you talked about when when you and I had the, the initial conversation. So yeah. It's dense. It's dense. But in your defense, Jassonne, I think I would still be intimidated with 9.5. Yeah. Yeah. I would open it and be like, oh, man. Yeah. We're we're down here. Yeah. And, Ryan, I you know, it's been a

while. Had you had you even read Dune before? I we have never even talked about it. I got Dune. Someone gave it to me when I was out in Portland, Oregon. I was I was, just working on a coffee shop. And this guy came in, and he's carrying a copy of Dune. And I said, I never got around to that. He said, this is the best book I've ever read. This is my 3rd time reading it. In fact, I have, like, 3 copies. You can

have this copy. And so it just so do you know when you see, like, astrophysicist just show, like, a taught sheet to explain the fabric of space time. And they push down on it, and that's what this book reminds me of. It's, like, pushing down on the center, and the gravity gravity of it is so much that you can't not put a reader feel like your world is also being pulled in because it is so relatable, because of the archetypal characters. And so it automatically almost forces the

reader to be immersed into it. And it's written in a way, and and the language that's used is accessible enough and with the dictionary and a glossary and all that. So, I mean, it's a commitment. You know? Yeah. But, well worth it. The well and I I liked the I'll be honest. I liked the structure of it. Like, once I sort of gotten past my own, like, NUE or angst or whatever about it, I like the structure of the book. But now the version that I have, is structured in a particular

way. It is the, let's see. I just have to get credit where credit is due. It is the ace Penguin Random House version, of this book and the the paperback version. And the way they put this together was in August of 2005. So I guess this came out, you know, in anticipation. Well, not necessarily anticipation of the movie, but rereleased for another generation. The way it was put together, there's appendies that are in the back of it. So there's, like, 20 pages of appendices, in

addition to the core the core elements of the book. There's terminology. There's cartographic notes. There's a map, and then there's an afterward by Frank Herbert's son, Brian Herbert, which I have not had the chance to read yet. But that's the basic structure. And then it sort of opens up with, you know, a quote, from the manual of Muadhib, by the princess Irulan. And and so it's set up in a way, and you'll you'll need to know

this if you're gonna read the book as a leader. It's set up as in a way to to Ryan's point to sort of draw you in to a world immediately. And it's not weirdly enough, it's not Star Wars. Like, that's what I expected. Like, it's not a Star Wars kind of epic. It's something even a Star Trek kind of epic. It's something totally it's something totally different. So, I like the structure of the book. I like the way things are put

together. I like the way that, that everything was collected together sort of to kind of make it easily accessible, at least in my version, which again was more accessible than the one that that I initially ran into all those all those years ago. Alright. I know this isn't the subject here, Jason, but you both talked about how accessible it is. Mhmm. And those who are familiar with Frank Herbert's, books in the series, what I'm told is that they become increasingly less accessible as you go

on. Yeah. Especially for the average reader. I stopped after book 3. It's pretty weird. Okay. Is is it almost like reading a I don't know, like, a thesaurus or something? Does it go like, is, you know, is it like reading more of a, like, is it written prose wise?

I what what, what what I what I gather, makes it far less accessible is even something I think the the most recent director, I always butcher his his, surname, but Denis Villeneuve, who, who directed the the last two films that Jason referenced had had just talked about how esoteric they become after book 3. And just kind of just how out there the concepts are and just, you know, what kinda happens to some of the characters and time jump. It gets very sci

fi. So I think that's They just wanna go on. Yeah. Yeah. So Well, let's, Topic for another time. Just a topic for another time. Let's, let's open up with Dune. And, as usual with books that are a little bit more recent, I'm going to, pick a particular quote. I'm going to focus on that. And then we're going to jump into, the literary life of Frank Herbert. We're going to talk a little bit with, with both Dan and Ryan about sort of the meaning of this book, and

what we have to look forward to here. So Dune opens with book 1, which is called, you know, Dune. And we open up with 2 characters, actually, 3 characters, Jessica, reverend mother, and Paul Atreides. Now, the relationship between Paul and his mother, Jessica, is critical to the moving forward of the plot of Dune, as well as the nuances of the relationship between, Paul's father and the duke, Duke Leto. And so we can we're gonna talk about that and address that, but I'd like

to focus on this just at the beginning. The reverend mother, Gaius Helen Mohiam, sat in a tapestry chair watching mother and son approach. Windows on each side of her overlooks a curving southern bend of the river and the green farmlands of the Atreides family holding, but the reverend mother ignored the view. She was feeling her age this morning more than a little petulant. She blamed it on space travel and association with that abominable spacing

guilt and its secretive ways. But here was a mission that required personal attention from a with the site. Even the potashaw emperor's truth sayer couldn't evade that responsibility when the duty call came. Damn that Jessica, the Reverend mother thought if only she'd born us a girl as she was ordered to do. Jessica stopped 3 paces from the chair, dropped a small curtsy, a gentle flick of

the left hand along the line of her skirt. Paul gave the short bow his dancing master had taught the one used quote, when it doubt of another station, unquote. The nuances of Paul's greeting are not lost on the Reverend mother. She said he's a cautious one, Jessica. Jessica's hand went to Paul's shoulder tightened there for a heartbeat, fear pulse through her palm. As she had herself under control. Thus, he has been taught your reverence.

What does she fear? Paul wondered the old woman study Paul in one Gestaltin flicker. I love that term, by the way, face oval like Jessica's, but strong bones, hair, the Duke's black black with brow line of the maternal grandfather who cannot be named and that thin disdainful nose shape of directly staring green eyes like the old duke, the paternal grandfather who is dead. Now there was a man who appreciated the power of bravura even in death, the

Reverend mother thought. And so this is the setup that brings us into this idea of Paul being tested, right, of Paul being trained. Well, not really being trained. It comes at the end of his training, right, the beginning of his testing,

time. Right? And this sets up the some of the other challenges that are going to rise through the book, particularly challenges around spoiler alert, the the death of the duke, the, the challenges of of Jessica and Paul, going to a, going to a new world, which is not like the world that they just left, and ultimately the challenges of being human. And there's a there's a touch of I don't know if it's commentary or thought process in this book, about evolution, which I wanna ask Dan about.

But that's how we open Duke. We're literally tossed into the fray, right away. And this kind of goes along with, I think, how Frank Herbert was was as a human being. Right? How he structured his own life. And so, Franklin Patrick Herbert junior was born October 8, 1920 and died February 11, 1986. He was an American science fiction author who wrote short stories and worked as a newspaper journalist, a photographer, a book reviewer, an ecological consultant, and a lecturer.

He was fascinated by books as a young man and could read much of the newspaper before the age of 5, had an excellent memory, and learned quickly. Probably a little bit didactic as well as being a little bit, having a little bit photographic memory. Due to an impoverished home environment largely due to the Great Depression, Herbert left home

in 1938 to live with an aunt and uncle in Salem, Oregon. During 1942, after the US entry into World War 2, he served in the US Navy Seabees for 6 months as a photographer, but suffered a head injury and was given a medical discharge. He never graduated from college. According to his son, Brian, he wanted to study only what interested him. And so did not complete the required curriculum. Now we're on a, we're on a month of, we're on a month of science fiction books. And that's why we're talking

about dune. And we talked about Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 4 51, Ray Bradbury also during the depression did not go to college. And part of the reason why Fahrenheit 4 51 is the way that it is. We talked about this in that episode, episode number 122. He, he said, Bradbury did, and I quote, it was a depression. Everyone was poor. No one could afford to go to college. We all just went to the library. And, and, Frank Herbert,

definitely did that as well. Herbert's first science fiction story looking for something was published in the April 1952 issue of startling stories. And he began researching Dune in 1959, and it was published in 1965, which of course spearheaded the

Dune franchise. By the way, Dune is the best selling science fiction novel of all time, and the Dune saga set in the distant future and taking place over a millennia explores complex themes, such as the long term survival of the human species, human evolution, planetary science and ecology, and the intersection of religion, politics, economics, facts, and power in a future where humanity has long since developed interstellar travel and colonized many thousands of worlds.

He later told many years after Dune was published, and this is of particular interest, I think, to Ryan. He later told Willis e McNelly that the novel originated when he was assigned to write a magazine article about sand dunes in the Oregon dunes near Florence, Oregon. But another possible source of inspiration for doing was Herbert's reported experiences with

psilocybin mushrooms. According to the Michael myecologist, Paul Stamets account, which describes Herbert's hobby of cultivating chanterellis, which are those like weird little mushrooms that have like the ruffled edges. And they they make you trip. They send you all kinds of different places. That's a little bit about the literary life of Frank Herbert and a little bit about Dune. Dan brought us Dune, so I'd like to give him

first crack at this. Talk to us about the importance of Dune, on you and your life and your creativity and your leadership. And then, Ryan, I want you to talk with us a little bit about the challenges of reading it. What does that look like? So, Dan, lay it on us. Ghassan, thank you. Yeah. It was, it was fun to think back on this. I think I I think I read it when I was, just about 14 years old for the first

I've read it a few times. It was, probably freshman or sophomore in college, found it on a list of, like, 28, 40 books or something like that could choose from. And, it was a tome. So, yes, it was it was intimidating, as you said. But I like the cover. It looked interesting. And I've always loved the smell of old books. And it was an old, you know,

old books and coffee, 2 favorite smells. In fact, this book talks about coffee and the important coffee service, you know, in a relationship too, which is also super cool. But it was just dense. I mean, it was layers, as you said, commentary on politics, religion, ecology. It planted the seed of an interest in just overall environmental environmental sustainability for me, which I spent a portion of my career within. But initially, it was just the the adventure and the world building

that kinda drew me in. I mean, I I was 14 years old and could, you know, immediately see the clear influence that it had had on pop culture and the ways that it had been influenced by other other works. But, yeah, it was certainly, probably the second or third time when I became of reading it, when I came to a more maybe conscious appreciation of the importance of some leadership lessons that were kind of woven through.

You know, I think I remember reading somewhere recently that I think it was Tim Ferris or or someone who was quoted in saying that anything, critical you need to know about leadership, you can learn by reading DIM or or something to that effect, which, I think is probably a bit of a stretch. But it is it is, certainly interesting to have seen that. I've I've seen it on different lists from, you know, I think, Elon Musk to

others who've who've referenced it. But there there were certainly I do remember, there being specific points when reading into some of the dialogue, especially in the relationship between, the protagonist Paul and his father, the duke. Just some of the the ways in which he talked about how his father led and what he was learning from him, in his position of leadership, that certainly got my wheels turning at a very

young age. You know, I think there's even a quote where, Duke Leto talks about, you know, what it means to be a leader. I think he says, you know, what is important for a leader is that which makes him a leader, the needs of his people. Which, you know, 14 year old kid kinda reading that and understand thinking through all of what what are the what are the factors and context that requires a leader to emerge in in how they lead, which is important. But, you know, even things like,

give as few orders as possible, I think what it says. Right? Once you've given orders on a subject, you will always be required to give orders on that subject or something to not affect, you know, which just speaks to the importance of keeping it simple for those involved in a mission. Right? Not micromanaging even at at the furthest end of that and ensuring that sort of the key message, the mission is paramount in people's minds and they never forget it, and

trust them to get the job done. How are them to do so? Which certainly wasn't thinking about it at that depth. Again, the first time I read it, but certainly, certainly had an impact upon me. In fact, I'm in a new office here, and getting set up, and I have very little on the walls. Mhmm. But thing I actually did put up on the wall right behind me is a gift from my baby sister who I just saw in Portland, Oregon last weekend, Brian. And it is the litany

against fear, which I have, framed up there. And that is the only thing aside from, the whiteboard on the other side of the room that is on the wall so far. So That's awesome. Just for you, sir. Just for you. I can I'll grab your address from HeySign. I'll mail you something to put on the wall. Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm a minimalist by nature, although my wife would probably, not agree with that statement. Well, you know, there's always there's always 2 partners in or not 2

partners. There's 2 kinds of people in a relationship. There's there's a person who's the minimalist, and then there's the person who's maybe a little bit left or right depending upon your perspective of the minimalist who's always considered by that minimalist to be a maximalist. Also depends on the context you're talking about. Right? In what area of life? That that's correct. That's right. That's right. You said a bunch of different

stuff there, Dan, and I took a bunch of notes. I wanna jump into a few things there. But first, Ryan, I know, you know, you told us the story about how you, you know, you've kind of structured not how you how you ran into Dune and how you got your copy and how you thought about it. You know, for me, you know, reading it and I've already mentioned this already. Reading it at 45, you know, significantly different obviously than trying to touch on it at 9 or even

to Dan's point 14. Right? Or as a freshman in, as a freshman in college. You're reading with all the kinds of experiences that you've had, you know, underneath your belt. That's what you're bringing to the game. What did you find in, in Dune? It is. Age is huge. Experience is huge. As I've gotten older, instead of getting bobbed out of details, it's more like the abstractions of things. And, you know, the the the challenge I think the biggest challenge is what, you

know, Dan and maybe he signed. I don't think yours is intimidated by it. But 900 pages is like a lot. It's pretty it's a and and going into it knowing that that it's going to be really dense material. Mhmm. That the number of characters, the names of the characters, how to keep the characters in their houses, which houses represent what.

And so this all starts to compile without some, like, note taking or references to other material in a short period of time, it just becomes way too quickly overwhelming. The the the I think the challenge, there there was, like, parts of or or either of you familiar with the show House, MB? With with House. The show House with with, House. Yeah. House. Yeah. K. And so a lot of that show is a couple seasons go on. It's built upon, like, layering stratagems. In order to, like, have people reveal

something. And it seems like there's a lot of that dialogue. So they're going to think this if I do this. So I'm going to do this, so they'll think this. Therefore, it will, you know, it will it will, you know, mend or take care of or address this particular issue. So there's a lot of, like, just abstract thinking that goes on within within the book and how, and, and how the Duke kind of restructuring,

his his, responsibilities. And, like, there was there was one I think a challenge too is, like, the the environment in a way. Maybe it's because the dialogue, maybe it's because people when they, thousands of years in the future evolve, don't have as, it didn't seem to be it's like there was a a less focus on, say, like, it'd be emotional responses. So it was not a lot of, like, reactions. And I guess I could also say to, like, the the Duke's leadership skill of of kind of remaining calm.

Mhmm. Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. That that that's a good point. Yeah. I didn't I would not have known how to articulate that, but I did pick up on that, as well. And I think I think that goes partially to, obviously, Robert is as a writer or was as a writer. Those were the things that he focused on. Right? Because he's gonna write, you know, what he's gonna write, right, from from that particular perspective because he's creating this

thing. But Frank Herbert also, weirdly enough I mean, you know, reading a little bit more into him, he was he seemed to be a person who was very and and and, you know, I'm sure people, you know, have all kinds of different, obviously, not not knowledge, but people have all different kinds of experiences during the course of their life. Right? He seemed to be a person who was very intentional,

about some of the things that he did. And I don't know if that was because of the head injury that discharged him in World War 2 from the Seavies. I don't know if that's just because of the path that he went down in the particular way that he was raised, but he seems to have or seemed to have in the course of his life a lot of intentionality behind

who he was as a person. And then the creative part of him that came out in science fiction seemed to be unlocked by other things that he was doing, like the psilocybin mushrooms and, you know, the the the the sort of the that sort of messing around with that a little bit. Now again, you know, I've known plenty of people who are more more, maybe more conservative in their temperament. I don't

mean politically conservative. Just conservative in their temperament that do need that other thing to be unlocked inside of them so they can access a whole bunch of stuff. But once they go behind that door, they kinda get spooked sometimes to your point about emotion, Ryan. They kinda get spooked by the strength of whatever that thing is back there,

and they slam that door shut real quick. And I I looked at Dune as his attempt to put that into its appropriate bucket, right, wherever it came from, but to put that thing in its appropriate bucket and channel it in a

particular in a particular direction. And it's interesting, Dan. We were talking before we hit record that, and you mentioned this, that subsequent books become more esoteric and become more it's like he got hate to say it this way, but it's like Frank Herbert got high on his own supply, you know, and sort of went down that rabbit hole a little bit deeper.

Maybe so. Maybe so. It's certainly, it, what I've heard, and I think the the level of or at least on kind of the overall accessibility, the first three books are sort of that trilogy, are the only that have been adapted so far into anything outside of the novels. Right? And I think that that kinda speaks to kinda

what's gonna sell. But also, I think it's, and we can make sure get into this a little bit as well, but the first two books, really seem to be the full arc of the primary protagonist and the message around, the purported message of Frank Herbert's around the danger of following overly charismatic leaders. And that being, you know, really sort of the rise and fall of an empire and that sort of contained peace and then the rest of it.

Yeah, there's certainly an audience for that, but maybe a little bit different one than the general populace, had an appetite for. Right. How much of the book do you think is null and void if the Harkonnage just, like, left really good machinery? And then he just carried on as usual. It'd be like a show it would be a it would be a it would be a short story of, like, 12 pages. They left us this wonderful machinery. We we harvested the spice without a hitch. We're not. So

it's like be kind, rewind. That's maybe that's where that came from. Yeah. They all just the Harker really just needed to open up a blockbuster franchise. That's really all they needed to do. It's just, like, back in the day. Well, I'm sure you're, I'm sure you're both, you know, read it read into this. I don't know that I fully appreciated, you know, this and and reading through the machinations, of the houses when I first read it at 14.

Mhmm. Of course, that was their the Harkonnen's first step. Their intentional first step in laying the trap. Mhmm. But, yeah, if they hadn't if they would have all just been kind to one another and and, and there was no animosity, I don't think we'd have any great stories, You know? Well, and we're gonna we're gonna talk about this in the next section of kinda wanna hold my hold my powder, give my powder dry a little bit here. And I will say

that we talk about the houses. I immediately thought of and and, of course, it was the environment too. I immediately thought of Lawrence of Arabia. Matter of fact, I I actually wanted to go get my copy of TE Lawrence's 7 pillars of wisdom and kind of read it alongside Dune just to see, you know, was Herbert was Herbert reading TE Lawrence's mail. As they say these days, was he collection receipts on TE Lawrence? Because the, and we've covered several pillars, seven pillars of wisdom on this

podcast. There are remarkable parallels between the observations that TE Lawrence has, particularly in the first couple of, I'd say the first 3, 4, 3, 2, 200 pages of 7 pillars of wisdom that are reflected in some of the behavior that the houses get up to, and that Leto and Atreides, get into, and that the, you know, are involved in. There's there's some there's some interesting parallels there. And I know that Herbert was widely read, so it wouldn't surprise me if that was an

influence there. And that's why I sort of I I came up with and we'll talk about this into my second second turn here. But this t e Lawrence idea of and I loved it the way he put it in, 7 pillars of wisdom, never outstay a climax, which is a hugely important lesson for leaders, and one that I think Lawrence out of out of many, many leaders, I would say maybe George Washington was maybe the other one, kind of actually understood this and knew exactly when to

leave. And most leaders have no clue when to leave. That's true. And then they wind up like Leto, and they fall into it. They fall into the trap of their enemies. So, so, like, how scarce? Well, you know, I mean, yeah, making yourself scarce. I mean, well well, the and this gets into succession and a whole bunch of yeah. Let me let me ask you this. Follow-up question for this, and then we'll we'll move on. Follow-up question on this. So you mentioned Tim Ferris and Elon Musk reading this book.

Obviously, for our listeners, if it's good enough for Elon Musk, it's good enough for you. So go go grab a copy of Dune. Even if you don't read the rest of them, you don't have to read children of Dune or Dune on Mars or whatever. The other one starts to don't worry about it. Just get the first letter. This idea of not micromanaging, building trust, give us few orders as possible, This idea of emergent leadership, right, that we see in Dune.

If I am a charismatic leader, what's the warning here for me in this book? Yeah. If you are that charismatic leader. Right. You know, let me touch on that really quickly, but I also wanna maybe just rewind before I lose this thought, on the T. E. Lawrence front, if I may. Just Mhmm. Yeah. There's a really, really great and I'll just put a plug for this because I received this as a Christmas gift this last, this last Christmas was a coffee table book. See the

coffee just coming back to coffee. Mhmm. Oh, yeah. Bring it back. And and, and and it even touches on it in this this coffee table book on sort of the worlds of Dune, the cultures, and the, places and historical figures that inspired the book, by Tom Huddleston. And it is just a phenomenal kind of just fun kind of read to look at and touches heavily upon, the 7 pillars of wisdom, and T. E. Lawrence as well. But back to your question on sort of what's what's the warning, if you are a charismatic

leader here. I think there's certainly a, a warning against, ambition, for the sake of ambition. Just the message, the age old message that, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Mhmm. You know, the certainly a pretty, pretty clear message of the book is one that I didn't necessarily get as a 14 year old, which was, you know, Paul, you know, he he ultimately succumbs and becomes the dictator that he overthrows. Mhmm. You know, ego affects all of us. Pride affects all

of us. And it clouds our judgment. And, and there's that's why you just can't you cannot, speak enough about or or just examine self examine enough on just ensuring you're maintaining a healthy dose of humility, and, relying on others around you and setting up the right systems and structures, from a, a leadership perspective to, govern effectively. What is the what is the Bene Gesserit ax axiom in there around, you know,

religion and politics in the same cart and, of course, we don't do that. But just sort of some of those concepts introduced, or reintroduced or really emphasized for me at a young age Yeah. Were certainly very important. So, you know, revenge and, manipulation do play a heavy part in the book even on the on

behalf of the protagonist. And that I think just also speaks to, you know, I'll take a maybe more spiritual or religious stance on that that, you know, we live in a fallen world, and that's part of our baser nature as humans. Revenge is a natural inclination. We wanna see others experience the pain that they've caused us and which is a major driver for the protagonist, Paul, in the story and much more and highlighted much more directly in the 2 recent films that came out.

And you see even in the choice, you know, not to get too much into that, but even some of them from a pacing and sort of length of story standpoint, some of the edits that had to be made and sort of decisions or actions that some characters took that were taken by others in the book. There's to highlight Paul's key motivation, being revenge in that and what it

ultimately did to him. Yeah. And, of course, we we see that message reflected in other things that, Dune had some influence on, including, Star Wars and the teachings of Yoda. Right? Leads down a dark path. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, back to the book, back to Dune. I'm gonna pick up a little bit here. So Paul and Jessica and the Duke leave their green planet. Right? And they go to a desert, a desert with worms and spice and betrayal, a desert with a desert

with corrupt commerce. Right? And, not even theocratically driven. That's not even a monarkly driven people. A desert with rebels and people who have no business being in a desert but are. Right? And this is, by the way, one of the other things about Dune that I wanna put up just right up front. There's no there's no there's very little appeal to to speak of Star Wars for just a minute or even Star Trek the next generation of which I'm a gigantic fan.

There's very little appeal to this idea of multiple races across multiple worlds. We're dealing with human beings, and, you know, it's it's human beings that look like the kind of human beings that you can see on the video of this podcast today. Right? You know, 2 eyes, a nose, a mouth. We're not dealing with, you know, Klingons or Jedi. We're not dealing with anything that's fantastical in terms

of the actual human experience inside of Doom. We're dealing with people who have, yes, to a certain degree evolved, but they would still be recognizably human from our perspective if they came, quote, unquote, back to our time. And Herbert did that on purpose. And so we pick up here, in the middle of book on or towards actually closer towards the end. And, it starts with this. My father, the Paducia emperor took me by the hand one day, and I sensed in

the ways my mother had taught me that he was disturbed. He let me down the hall of portraits to the ego likeness of the Duke Leto Atreides. I marked the strong resemblance between them, my father and this man in the portrait, both with thin elegant faces and sharp features dominated by cold eyes. Princess daughter, my father said, I would that you'd been older when it came time for this man to choose a woman. My father was 71 at the time and looking no older than the man portrait,

and I was but 14. Yet I remember deducing in that instant that my father secretly wished the duke had been his son and disliked the political necessities that made them enemies. From in my father's house by the princess Irulan. And so that's kind of a quote that opens up the chapters, right, in my version of, of Dune. Your version, your mileage may vary. Then we jump into the text. His first encounter with the people that he'd been ordered to betray left doctor

Kines shaken. He potted himself on being a scientist to whom legends were merely interesting clues pointing towards cultural roots. Yet the boy fitted the ancient prophecy. So precisely he had that questing eyes and the air of reserve candor. Of course, the prophecy left certain latitude as to whether the mother goddess would bring the Messiah with her or produce him on the scene. Still, there was this odd

correspondence between prediction and persons. They met in midmorning outside the Eric and landing fields, administration building and unmarked, orinthopter squatting nearby, humming softly on standby like a synomulant insect. And Atreides guards stood beside it with Baird's sword and the faint air distortion of a shield around him. Kind sneered at the shield pattern thinking Eraqus has a surprise for them there.

The planetologist raised a hand, signaled for his Freeman guard to fall back. He strode on ahead towards the building's entrance, the dark hole of the plastic coated rock. So exposed that the monolithic building he thought so much less suitable than a cave. Movement within the entrance caught his attention. He stopped taking the moment to adjust his robe and the set of his stillsuit at the left shoulder. Now pause. You got fantastical elements in here, but

it's with technology. That's also the genius of of what Herbert's doing here. Back to the book. The entrance doors swung wide. Atreides guards emerged swiftly, all of them heavily armed, slow pellet stunners, sword, and shields. Behind them came a tall man, hawk face, dark of skin and hair. You are a jubicle cloak with a tradies crest on the breast and wore it in a way that betrayed his unfamiliarity with the garment.

It clung to the legs of his still suit. On one side, it lacked the free swinging, striding rhythm beside the man walked a youth with the same dark hair, but rounder in the face that you've seen small for the 15 years kinds knew him to have, but the young body carried a sense of command, a poised assurance as though he saw a new things all around him that were not visible to others. And he wore the same style cloak as his father yet with a casual ease, it made one think the boy

had always worn such clothing. The Mahdi will be aware of things others cannot see with the prophecy. Hain shook his head telling himself they're just people. With the 2, garb like them for the desert came a man recognized, Gurney Halleck. Hines took a deep breath. Still, his resentment against Halleck who had briefed him on how to behave with the duke and the ducal heir. You may call the duke my lord or sire. Noble born is also correct, but

usually reserved for more formal occasions. The sun may be addressed as young master or my lord. The duke is a man of much leniency, but looks little familiarity. And Kain's thought as he watched the group approach, they'll learn soon enough whose master on Eraqus. Order me questioned half the night by that Mentat, will they? Expect me to guide them to an inspection of spice mining, do they? The import of Howitt's questions had not escaped Kynes. They wanted the imperial

bases, and it was obvious they learned to do the bases from Idaho. I will have Stilgar send Idaho's head to this duke, Kynes told himself. The reason I read that is because Kynes is the planetologist, and he's our entry point into Arrakis. He's our entry point into this seemingly dead planet that has all kinds of other things going on in it. It is a planet that is a desert. It's a planet that is being mined for its spice. I got to admit, I'm still not really clear on what spice does. I just know

it's valuable. And maybe it's in future books. I I I have some idea maybe that it has some hallucinogenic properties, but I'm also it also seems to be like an actual food. I'm not really clear. Point is, it's a resource like oil or water or sand. It's a resource that is that is prevalent, on Arrakis, and it is also a resource that is apparently worth fighting

and dying over. The planetologist kind who doesn't make it to the end, spoiler alert, Kind of understands and is beginning to understand that the point of planet, Arrakis, is not the spice. The point is freeing people, particularly the freemen to interestingly enough, read, freeing them from the desert, turning the desert into a garden. This goes to the never ending challenge, which I think Herbert was very focused on of building a new world, even after humans long since left planet Earth and

moved on to different planets and galaxies. Herbert's vision of human troubles, desires, lusts, wars, and killings that seem to haunt human beings' best efforts at building a new world mirror the insights of t e Lawrence, that he had as a result of experiencing the aftermath of the Arab revolt during World War 1. One of the leaders, one of the ideas that a leader must know is when

to leave the stage, as I already mentioned. And the biggest curse of the characters in Dune is that they all aren't in tune with the zeitgeist of when to leave the stage due to the depth and breadth of their egos. We already mentioned revenge, Dan. So I'm gonna switch this to in here for this opening part of this segment. Why is it important to leave on a high note,

Ryan? You're you're a performer. You you matter of fact, years ago, on another project that we were involved in because we've been friends for a long, long time, You told me, always leave on a high note. Always leave them always leave them, you know, leave them clapping. And and Jerry Seinfeld also mentioned this to to George years ago on that show. And George, you know, was twirling and left on a high note. Right? And I've sort of tried to do that in my career. We've on a

high note, but it's sometimes hard to figure out where that high note is. So let's open it up with with you. Why is it important to leave on a high note? So I so you've met cousin Johnny, and I've talked to cousin Johnny. Yeah. I've met cousin Johnny anytime. So You should you should tell Dan who cousin Johnny is. Because Dan Cousin Johnny is a good time fellow who's a frequenter of the bars and establishments and has worked in restaurants for a long time, likes to gamble, travels, you know,

kinda gets out there. And, but he always has, like, a short wired, or or like a hardwired, like, access to the shortcuts in his brain, you know, where he can put things in very take complex things and put it into simple terms, but he will openly admit that he can barely read. Mhmm. So it's like his ability to process information is is really high. And so he's on the phone with someone, and I was like, who was that? And he told

me he's some girl. And I was like, that was what was that conversation about? He's just like, always keep them wanting more. And I was like and we're sitting at a bar at a TGI Fridays. This is, you know, this whole scenario and it's like, but if you just take that line, that and it has great value. And that that's just first thing I thought of when it was, like, leading on a high note. It was like, you're galvanizing the troops. Mhmm. You know, you want to, like, you want the reaction

of that and be, like, yes. I'm fully invested and whatever we're doing is the only thing that is the one thing we gotta do. And, you know, I think that's, that would be a primary, you know. Goal of the leaders to have all the people you're leading get along as some sort of familial unit because there's strength in community. And when everyone's on the same page working towards a common goal, it almost doesn't feel like

work. Right. So, you know, leaving on a high note is is kind of like the the the the path that the the red carpet into into that. Actualizing of the yeah. Yeah. Actualizing of the, yeah, of the leaving on a high note. Dan, what do we do with those people, though, like Kines or Harkins, as Ryan already mentioned. What do we do with those people that just don't wanna go along or they or they have just, you know and I always ask this almost on every podcast.

Right? Because leaders invariably are going to run into conflict. Invariably. Matter of fact, I will tell leaders in the course of my leadership development work or training work or coaching and consulting work that I've done in this space for a long time now. I will tell them if you are not experiencing conflict, you're probably not leading. Yeah.

You're probably doing it badly. Or because people aren't bringing you things that you need to hear or your ego is so massive that you can't brook even positive conflict. And so everybody is doing another variation of this. Everybody's walking around on you walking around you on eggshells, and you're actually in the process of losing your team. You're lose you won't be able to leave on a high note. You're you're gonna get carded out the back. You know? So what do leaders do?

How do leaders respond to the kinds of the world? You know? How do they respond to those kinds of folks who have other agendas? No. Yeah. It's it's that's, so quickly before jumping in there, it's interesting. Kynes in the book, eventually does kind of become a believer. He does. And so he he he comes along. And I think there's there's a lesson in that too, which is, you know, there's there's a variety of ways to deal with with those, and that's always contextual in situation. Right?

Leadership is. And everyone needs to be led differently. And a really great leader will be able to switch gears well enough to be able to lead, at a group and or individual level, lead people the way that they need to be led, which is just part of the one of the bigger challenges of of leadership and why it is certainly a craft, to

be to be learned. But I think some of that does come back to and I think maybe to some degree in the case of of Kynes that if you're cultivating a familial environment to Ryan's point and building a new culture, that, that is is working for the larger majority, eventually, people will self select in or self select out. Mhmm. And, you know, it kinda calls back to, you know, some of the the great works on getting the right people on the

bus and getting the wrong people off. Sometimes that those have to be more direct actions to get them off. Sometimes they will jump off, and and that'll just come by very nature of seeing a new direction forming. And, people will know when to exit or they or they won't, and you'll have to, unfortunately, exit exit them yourself. Right. And those

are the that's that's the conflict I come back to. Right? Sometimes that requires some difficult decisions to remove an obstacle, for the team there, as well. So certainly, you know, a challenging a challenging instance. But, I did wanna circle back to your point about I I had not pulled this out before, Dasanu and Ryan. So I wanna appreciate I do wanna appreciate the note on the importance of leaving on a high note or knowing when to exit stage, because I do think that's so important.

And it's you know, I have been I've observed I've been in my career long enough to have observed this play out positively, negatively, you know, over time. But I do think it also, on on the kind of flip side, if you will, internally, it speaks to the importance of being to some degree, not always present, you know, to some degree, like there's there's a distance between you as as a leader and and and your team. Mhmm. And you can't be too familial. Mhmm.

There does have to be some measure of sort of parental, you know, position to be able to, to lead and to to hold authority and and to make the difficult decisions required of you in that position. And so not being overly present, cultivating an an, an air of scarcity, scarcity, is important. And I think even some of my favorite, readings from graduate school, like the 1st 90 days, for example, you know, speaks to this and

the importance of kind of establishing Mhmm. Your expectations with the team of being being accessible and maintaining an open door policy, but at the same time, not being too accessible. That there is a fine line as there is with everything. So, and I hadn't necessarily pulled that out of Dune, before. And that's that's a really that's a really, really, good piece, especially as it relates back to, to ET Lawrence,

I think, as you said, Jason. Yeah. Well and I think that that's actually why Duke Leto at tradies winds up in the spot that he winds up there. And it took me it was sort of one of those things that it took me a little bit to click to, because I was trying to figure out and and we'll talk about the Baron Vladimir Harkin in here in just a moment. We're we're gonna talk about villains in a minute, but including that scuzzy little

nephew of his. Anyway, you know, the the kind of background I have and and Ryan knows a little bit about my background and then knows a little bit about where I came from. Like, guys like that get clapped, like, quick. Like, they do a lot of damage, but they get clapped quick. Like and we all, like, figure

it out and, like, move on. But in polite society, I I think as you go up up the hierarchy, it gets a little bit harder to sort of reach out to those people and and, as my mother would say, snatch them bald headed. It becomes a little bit more of a challenge. But we'll talk about that in just a second, because they have all these protectors around them, and they have these walls around them. There's certain things you can't do because of propriety and

and all that. Although, I think a lot of that's has changed and is continuing to change. But this idea of and, again, I think that it it kinda struck me. And it wasn't just a combination of it wasn't just never outstay a climax, which is another variation saying leave on a high note. It was also this idea, and I've been talking a lot about this lately. William Shakespeare writes in the great play Julius Caesar. There's a great scene. I think it's in act 3 of Julius Caesar

where Caesar's talking to Calpurnia. Right? And Calpurnia, his wife, is trying to get him to not go to the Senate because she senses that something is going to happen to him. And he says he says this great line. I love it. He goes everywhere always I am Caesar. Like, why wouldn't and and and then there's just dead silence there. And and Shakespeare leaves that line just hanging there. He puts a period at the end of it, and he just leaves the line hanging there. Right? He doesn't put a comma. He

doesn't leave anything else. Just everywhere always I am Caesar. And I think in our attempts to become more familiar with each other and social media has done a piece of this, the Internet has done a piece of this. I mean, Dan, you and I connected because of the Internet. We connected because of LinkedIn, right? Because of a social media platform on the Internet. We're all of a certain age. I'm in my mid forties now where we saw the Internet come into fruition. We aren't we aren't we aren't

that generation that the one that's like a couple of generations behind us. We aren't the ones that were born into it. And it was just here. We saw it develop. Right? And so we've gone from my dad, who would have been in his seventies if he were still alive. My father would have no interest in the Internet beyond just, like, yeah. I mean, that's cool, but, like, why do I wanna talk to somebody in

Australia? Now we we've leapfrogged in 20 years to, no, we can't get away we can't get away without this connection. But what this does is it brings a feeling of familiarity. And so when a leader is operating inside of this space, the tension is, am I familiar? Am I friends with my am I friends with my people on Facebook? Or do I need that distance? And people look at that distance, bless you,

Ryan. People look at that distance as rejection even though in reality, it is an idea, like you're talking about that certain distance. Once you have that distance, then you know when to leave, I think, or you know when to stay. Now Julius Caesar, of course, dies in the senate. Duke Leto gets, of course, betrayed and dies, you know, himself. And I think the sin of Leto and the sin of Caesar are the same, just on different sides of the coin. You know? It's this idea that I overstayed my climax.

I I I maybe shouldn't have gone to Arrakis. Maybe I should have just sent Paul. Maybe that would have been good enough. Now Paul's 15, obviously. You know, you're gonna send a 15 year old to do a man's job. Well, maybe maybe then he avoids the messiah nonsense that happens later on in, in the 3rd part of, in the 3rd part of doom. Or maybe maybe he still runs into it, but just in a different kind of way. You know, that's a nice

little counterfactual there. I I don't know. But I think of these kinds of things when I when I touch on this, when I touch on this material. Yeah. There's a there's a lot there. There's a lot there. There's a lot there. It's always a it's a it's a difficult one. And frankly, on a on a personal level, I've always struggled with that. Mhmm.

Sort of, you know, just the desire to be, you know, close with and kind of friends with and just just the, the familial atmosphere you wanna maintain with a cultivate with a team and that buy in at the same time maintaining a certain distance. Right. Or does just how we're wired, how we're raised, our personalities, you know, and and that's why I think some personalities are better suited for leadership than

others. So, it just kinda comes back to that. So, you know, there's a there on a, on the importance of knowing when to exit the stage, you asked an earlier question, Hassan, around, you know, what is what is the warning for overly charismatic leaders too? Mhmm. I think there's a a related warning here, you know, around exiting the stage that that, you know, it's reflected in one of my

favorite lines from, The Dark Knight. It's Christopher Nolan. Right? It's like you die a hero where you live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Right. Which I I think it it resonates with us because, you know, that's, again, been in my career long enough to have seen, like, almost any leader regardless of how great they were. Once they're out of a role, you got a new leader coming in, you know, people are comparing them and you kind of forget about the great things they did,

dependent upon, you know, etcetera. And there's, you know, people tend to vilify, their leaders. So, you know, knowing when to exit the stage and when you've done enough, you know, you mentioned George Washington. I'm watching a phenomenal documentary on him right now. And just, like, again, that's one of the greatest things, One of the reasons he's so well remembered, he knew when to exit the stage. Yeah. He knew when to put down power. He knew when to get out. Us

all. And it's like a ball. Right? Future generations. You know? Yeah. So, it's a it's an important one for the longer. Ryan, let's talk about the Barron. Let's talk about Barron Harkonen for a little bit. You've you've had experiences in your life where people have just not liked your face. Currently going through several of those, relationships. What but no villain to go back to the dark night, honestly. Right? The villain of the dark night, the joker didn't think he was the

villain. He he thought he was just well, even said, I'm a dog. And by the way, it's one of my favorite movies too. I'm a dog chasing a car, or I wouldn't know what to do with it if I caught it. I'm just it was chaos. I just do things. Right? The the, yeah, the the the baron. Right? The baron doesn't view himself as a villain. He views himself as protecting and, yes, he is

a venal weasel. Let's just be very clear. But he views himself as protecting the spice, protecting the trade, protecting what makes his house valuable. And, of course, if there's a side benefit to crushing a different another house, he's gonna take that as well. Like, isn't there's no way he's not gonna take that extra off the table. He does not view himself as a villain. Ryan, what do we do when we don't view ourselves as a villain? How how do we switch our brains on that?

I keep going back to how much of groups of people or just people in this book rely on the lure of their position or character. The Betty Jesser, it's great. When she asked, what is this? And she says, it's a she's going to say it's a maker of death, but it's a maker and it's the Chris knife. And it's, like, a misunderstanding that keeps Paul as the messiah in it keeps that alive. Mhmm.

Restate it again. So, you know, when you're a villain or or if you you don't see yourself as the villain, how do you looking at the baron and looking at his motivations? Right? Like, how does he how can he can he reset himself? And I I think Well, I think so the reason so, butt it up again, say, Leto, where it's like trying to establish trust

Mhmm. And that building, you know, even if, you know, that he is the leader and and, the harkening, it's it's like, no. This is he's stating fact and the confidence is very sure. Mhmm. Whereas, I don't know. I think it's so revealing when when Jessica says when she just throws out as an anchor. And so you're seeing someone sort of rely on deception, and we're harkening. It it's like he's like, it'd be like, oh, I'm going to deceive you. Don't take any you know what I mean?

Like, it's very clear. He's not he's not he's not, trying to fool anybody about what or who he is. Right. Yeah. And and and whereas, from the other end, it seems like coming into this new environment, figuring out how to so it's it's it's, I think, a level of trust that needs I mean, is anyone in the Harkonen would you see an an upheaval to go against? No. But I think his nephew definitely wants to overthrow him. I I I think that I think the nephew but the nephews wants to

overthrow him because that's just what you do. Like, it's it's not like it's not as if his nephew has ever questioned. I I think of a line in the departed when Leonardo DiCaprio, his mother die yeah. His mother dies. And, the the brother, I think his uncle shows up at his funeral. This is a deep cut, but shows up at the funeral and starts talking to him about lecturing about his life or whatever. And Leo goes, as the, as the sun goes, you know, and I'm gonna butcher this because

it's been a while since I've seen the departed. But he says, maybe you should be thinking about how, like, all the things you did and all the decisions that you made led to your children being screwed up. Maybe you should not be coming down here and telling me how I'm screwed up. Maybe you should go fix your own house and stop trying to give me a lecture. Right? And and the baron's nephew understands that things are screwed up, but that's he's a fish

in the water. He's not gonna question the water. Well, that's what I'm trying to say. There's there's not a link between. There's not someone in between to make that. Whereas the uncle is, like, the surrogate message. You know? Like, hey. You know? Or or Leonardo. Like, that that relationship where they can be direct and honest with each other. Right. Everything

else is strategy because there are so many other people involved. So I think having, like, a right hand man is really valid or a right hand person is really valid because then you have someone to bounce ideas off of and there's, like, another, there's another fail stop before kind of, you know, following through with whatever. It it because it could be things could be a reaction to something. Mhmm. And I don't know. It just it just seems, I don't know, more palatable to to to

have a larger network rather than being the godhead. Well, it's interesting that you bring this up because Duke Leto was surrounded by a bunch of different advisers, all of whom were giving him different information. The baron, on the other hand, seems to seems seems to be lacking in a good number 2. And, you know, and he doesn't want a good number 2, by the way. He's fine with himself. He's he's cool. He's cool with like how all this is working out. Right? Because it's working out to

benefit him. And you see this in when he betrays the Duke later. And we're gonna talk about this in just a minute or not. He he the the conspiracy unfolds right against Duke later. And we'll talk about this in a minute, as we go into the back end of our conversation here today. But he he he kidnaps sort of the when I kidnaps, he takes the, the the basically the male mental manipulator, the mentant. Mental. Yeah. And sort of tries to turn him. Right? Or or

thinks he has successfully turned him. And that guy could have been a really good number 2 for you, but you just wanted to manipulate him. You don't want a good number 2. Right? And one of the things in my career that I've sort of in every entrepreneurial kind of, adventure that I've ever gone on. And I've been an entrepreneur for a long time. Dan, I haven't had a regular job in a long long time. 15 years. I haven't had a regular job. Right? I'm trying to try and keep that streak going.

You know, and some days it's a little bit more close run than others. But, but one of the things that I've noticed as an entrepreneur, as a starter, as a person who does projects is you either have to have a good number 2 or you have to be a good number 2. And you kind of have to figure that out, like right there. Like you kind of have to figure out where you're sitting in the hierarchy sort of immediately.

If you don't, then you wind up wandering around with a lot of confusion, you know, and you wind up wandering around and maybe you're the villain, maybe you're the hero, but, you know, the project will move forward at a certain point underneath its own inertia, whatever it is. But to have a good adviser or be a good adviser is is is critical, and you gotta figure

that out quite quickly. And, you know, a a wonderful example is, in in the show, The Walking Dead, where Norman Reedus' character is clearly on the one team, but he's always sort of hovering around. Right. You know? So it's like the autonomy of the individual, yet he's contributing to the larger The larger group. Yeah. Back to the book. Back to Dune. We're going to talk a little bit about hierarchy and monarchy. And if you're gonna overthrow a government, what's the best way to do

that? What's the best way to stage a rebellion if you're going to if you're gonna indeed do that? And so, so back to the book, back to Dune. Jessica awoke in the dark, feeling premonition in the stillness around her. She could not understand why her mind and body felt so sluggish. Skin raspings of fear ran along her nerves. She thought of sitting up and turning on a light, but something stayed the decision. Her mouth felt strange.

Lump, lump, lump. It was a dull sound directionless in the dark somewhere. The waiting moment was packed with time with rustling needle stick movements. She began to feel her body grew aware of bindings on wrists and ankles, a gag in her mouth. She was on her side, hands tied behind her. She tested the bindings, realized they were crims scroll. Crims scale fiber would only caught tighter

as she pulled it. Now she remembered. There had been movement in the darkness of her bedroom, something wet and pungent slapping against her face, filling her mouth, hands grasping for her. Chia gaps 1 in drawn breath, sensing the narcotic in the wetness consciousness had receded, sinking her into a black bin of terror. It has come, she thought how simple it was to subdue the Ben Casaire. All it took was treachery. Hawat was right. She forced herself not to pull on her

bindings. This is not my bedroom. She thought they've taken me someplace else. Slowly, she marshaled the inner calmness. Do you go aware of the smell of her own stale sweat with this chemical infusion of fear? Where is Paul? She asked herself, my son, what have they done to my hand? What have they done to him? Calmness. She forced herself to it using the ancient routines, but the terror remained so near. Leto, where are you, Leto?

She sensed the diminishing the dark. It began with shadows. Dimension separated became new thorns of awareness, white aligned under a door. I'm on the floor. People walking. She sensed it through the floor. Jessica squeezed back the memory of terror. I must remain calm, alert, and prepared. I make it only one chance. Again, she forced the inner calmness. The ungainly thumping of her heartbeat even shaping out over time. She counted

back. I was unconscious about an hour. She closed her eyes, focused her awareness into onto the approaching footsteps where people she counted the differences in their steps. I must pretend I'm still unconscious. She relaxed against the cold floor, testing her body's readiness, heard a door open, sensed increased life through her eyelids. Feet approached someone standing over her. You are awake, rumbled a basso voice. Do not pretend. She opened her eyes. The Baron

Vladimir Harkonnen stood over her. Around them, she recognized the cellar room where Paul had slept, saw his caught in one side empty. Dispenser lamps were brought in by guards, distributed near the open door. There was a glare of light in the hallway beyond that hurt her eyes. She looked up at the baron. He wore a yellow cape that bulged for his portable suspensors. The fat cheeks were 2 cherubic mounds beneath spider black eyes. The

drug was timed. He rumbled. We knew to the minute when you'd be coming out of it. How could that be? She wondered to have to know my exact weight, my metabolism, my such a pity. You must remain gagged. The Baron said we could have had such interesting conversation. You, it's the only one it could be. She thought how The baron glanced at him, glanced behind him at the door. Come in, Peter. She never before seen the man who entered stand beside the baron, but the face

was known in the man. Peter, the men had assassin. She studied him. Hawk features, blue ink eyes that suggested he was a native of Arrakis, but subtleties of movement and stance told her he was not. And his flesh was too well firmed with water. He was tall, though, slender, and something about him suggested effeminacy. I'm gonna stop there because that's the first indication we have that something's about to go radically, ridiculously sideways, that there was another plot, a foot. I'm a

big fan of the show, The Wire, way back in the day. I'm a huge fan of that show, and, Omar had a great line in The Wire. He said, if you come with the king, you best not miss. And that is absolutely the truth and the Baron or all of his internalized knowledge missed. He missed the thing that he was supposed to hit. He thought he hit the target, but he didn't. Now what is set up in Dune is a monarchal structure. It's a it's a monarchy. There's barons, there's

kings, there's dukes. There's all these kinds of indicators of a monarchal structure, not a democratic one. And we are uncomfortable with monarchy. But the fact is we are at the end of a managerial culture, I believe, fundamentally in America. That doesn't mean there won't be managers in the future. There will always be managers or always have been. But we are reshuffling around the kind of ways in which we think about how all of this goes together. And I don't know what the solution is.

But Dune proposes 1, interstellar colonization. But such a large scale project requires the deploying of critical human resources, including human will that we current can currently cannot fathom accomplishing. And probably the only system that puts that will out there in a focused way is quite frankly, a hierarchical monarchy. But we're uncomfortable with that. There's also the issue of cycles rearing their ugly head as you bring every element of being human to the table.

There's a challenge that's presented in Dune, and it starts with the way in which Duke Leto goes to Arrakis, the way in which he reacts to the spice trade. Right? The decisions he decides he's going to make to Ryan's point earlier about these characters deciding things that other characters deciding things in this play is is is moves forward. It starts there with the duke, but it it continues even through the duke's betrayal and through the rise of Paul Atreides as this mythical messiah.

By the way, when you call a 15 year old a messiah, you're gonna have a problem. Just a pro tip. Just pro tip for someone who knows. It's gonna be a real problem. And so the challenge of the system being the system being designed to do what it does, right, or to be what it is, is presented to us in Dune. And it is a challenge that arises in every generation, either at the individual

level or at the state level. And so as we turn our corner on our conversation here with Dan, I wanna get his thoughts on this. How can leaders avoid being thoughtless bureaucrats, whether they're in a hierarchical, monarchical system or an egalitarian democratic one, because it seems to be a drift. And that is the drift, I think, partially also that got Duke Leto to the spot where he was at. He didn't seem to be able to stop bureaucratic drift. How do we do that as leaders?

Yeah. That's certainly a tough one. Organizational structures are critical. Put you farther and farther away from the people in your market. The larger the organization gets, the larger your enterprise gets. And, and so it's a tough challenge. You know, I I certainly don't have the answer. But, you know, the we all become frustrated with bureaucrats. Right? The definition of somebody who's a little bit more concerned with procedure policy than than people.

And, you know, one of the things that I think there's a couple of things. 1, both of which kinda connect back to 1 previous theme that we were touching on and then 2, maybe even a lesson that I took away from from Dune. The first one, you know, back to earlier, the conversation around having a series of good advisors around us. Right? People who are in touch with with people who are in touch with

the market and who can objectively advise us as leaders. You know, I've always liked the person the concept of the sort of personal board of directors for you and your life, your your, your career being your enterprise, that you're leading and and having advisers that you can bounce things off of to stay on course, to check yourself, to avoid becoming the villain, to to kinda come back to that earlier piece.

I think the other is, you know, staying in touch with with your market, with your people, requires constant, movement. Right? Constant innovation. And we, as again, coming back to our face or nature as humans, which we talked about before, we wanna be comfortable, some more than others. And so it's natural to just become like, let's just go

with bureaucratic flow. But there's a line in the book I think that says, you know, he, Paul, referencing Paul, fought the temptation to choose a clear and safe path warning. And I'm, again, don't know exactly on point here warning that that that leads ever down into the into stagnation. Mhmm.

Which we know. Right? So, I think the implication there being that, you know, especially as an entrepreneur, you know, this well, Hassan, the constant, energy, action, innovation keeps you sharp, keeps you keeps you in touch with your market, keeps you up to date on what's happening, and and and hopefully ahead of and seeing what's coming next.

And also speaks to the importance of especially as a leader, as an entrepreneur, your willingness and the importance of stretching yourself intellectually, even physically is is what's necessary to maintain your professional success. And sometimes that that requires, blowing up the ship, if you will. And by that, I mean, moving on to the next thing and exiting the stage. Right. So it's time for the for the for the next chapter and knowing when that is. Right?

Which, you know, again, this is a podcast on films and pop culture. I I always appreciate it. I think it was the actor who played Captain America talked about that too. Oh, yes. Mhmm. But this was the right moment. I don't wanna come back to this character. Like, we left it on such a high note. Like, that was the right moment. Leave before they ask you to. So Never never never never ever stay at climax back to back to the t, Lawrence. Never do that. Yeah. Okay. That's

all I got. I I don't I don't have I don't have the answer right. You don't have the answer yet. I don't think anybody does. I think it's I think it's I think it's it's a challenge that quite frankly, I mean, and we we cover the, state papers of the United States on this podcast, in the month of July. So we talk about the declaration of independence, the Federalist arguments for the Constitution, the Anti Federalist arguments against the Constitution. And typically we will focus on a

particular amendment or a Supreme Court decision. Usually those are released in June. That impacts the way we think about the Constitution. And, you know, when you look at the state papers of the United States and you look at the level of thought that those men put into those the creation of of those documents that laid the laid the keel, for the United States of America that we all kinda just take for granted.

You look at the intentionality that they put into that, and even they didn't have you know, I'm just a schmuck hosted a book podcast. Like, you know, I, you know, I'm not trying to create a country here. They were trying to create a country and even they didn't have an answer to that question. Right. With all of their intentionality and everything that they brought to the game. And so, I admire the effort to go to it. And we'll talk about solutions

to problems here in a minute. I admire, you know, the effort of talking about a solution versus just continually masticating a horror problem. And we have to put something out there. Right? I mean, we can't just just we can't just keep talking about the problem. Ryan, one of the interesting things about Dune is that it is a epic tale, but it's an epic tale about human beings, marshaling their resources. It's like, it's as if all of the descendants of Elon Musk, all of a sudden got together.

All 14 of his kids that he's got all got together. And like a 1000 years from now, we're all just gonna be descendants of Elon Musk. Right. You're gonna wipe out the people that don't have the ability to marshal the human resources. And we're just gonna go. Okay. Thanks. And you get that sense from doing that

all these people. In particular, by the way, and I haven't talked about the religious elements, Dan, but, like, they're talk I love it how they talk about the OC translation of the bible, and I'm like, what is what is he even talking about here? But it's interesting because I have said repeatedly on this show that the Bible is the one book that resists the algorithm. It resists the machinations and the manipulations of

people, and it instead changes. It's the one one one of maybe 2 or 3 books on the planet that actually changes you. You don't change it. It actually changes you. And it's interesting that that's the book that's going to or some variation of it that's going to make it to the stars in Herbert's, you know, in Herbert's world. I say all that to say this. My question for Ryan is this. How can we what what should leaders be focused on? Should they be focused on

marshaling their resources, controlling human willpower? Like, where should leaders place their focus first? It depends on the size of the community they're leading, I would think. It is enormous. I mean, are you talking about a family unit? Are you talking about a community? You know, and and in this case, we're talking about, like, worlds. Right. Yeah. Yeah. We're talking about interstellar interstellar And so when you bring into that

scale. Yeah. There's 0. I mean I think there's an episode of Transformers from the eighties that deals with it when one of the Transformers is an entire planet, but I don't know if that's applicable here. A lot of the, so what else I've written down is Paul's decision to do the difficult thing would make David Goggins proud, you know. And Who's gonna carry the boats? Who's gonna carry the logs? And so a

couple of things. The bureaucratic things, like, they can some of my sister said to me a while back was, like, you make your decisions based on, like, a moral model that you're not which is you're talking about the bible. Mhmm. You're making decisions on a moral model, so I don't have to tease through. I mean, if there's something that I disagree with, this does not line up with my, you know, kind of like my spiritual center, then it kinda makes some decisions for

me. But we're not talking about in this book relocating jobs because it's not a good fit. We're talking about the leader, marshaling resources and allies. No. Well, if that's not their responsibility on some level, at least some variation of because I don't wanna be as, so as absolute as, controlling human willpower. That's a but what, I mean, what is a leader's responsibility if not securing the area that you're occupying. Mhmm.

Well, that's a great question. What is a leader's responsibility? And and that is I mean, that's the depth of the pool that we're we're in right now. I mean, I'm we're I mean, I think we're 300 episodes total into this podcast over the last two and a half years. We're like a 100 and we go at a 150 or a 100 60 shorts episodes right now. We got a 123. This is episode over a 123. And I still don't I still don't know what the answer to that question is.

What is the leader's responsibility? You know? Well, it's I mean, the and, just to keep it to, like, the restaurant industry is, like, set up whoever you're working with or for success. So just to set up the person for success. Right. Now there but there's so many different, channels that this can go I mean, what is success for someone in the world of doom?

Right. Yeah. Well well, the baron. Right? What was success for him versus what was success for his, his nephew versus what was success for Paul versus what was success for the Freeman, what was success for Duke Leto. Jessica, we we haven't even talked about the Ben Casarek because that's we haven't even

gone there. That's a whole podcast episode in and of itself, but that's a whole conversation that can be had about feminism, female leadership, female followership, like the shift that happens between, the second book and the third book where she realizes that she has to take a backseat to her own son and she intentionally does so. I know that there are women who do that, and I Is there a comment on charlatanism as well? Well, okay. Frame frame that out for us. What what what do you mean? What

do you mean about charlatanism? Because I keep going back to the Chris Knife scene. Okay. Yeah. It's pure chance, and it's off of the lure of the messiah Mhmm. And the Bene Gesserit feeding into it. Right. Yeah. And not necessarily even, you know, believing it. It's just willing it to happen. Right. Will willing it into existence. Yeah. Yes.

Well and then you see sort of Paul's relation to the freeman when he finally escapes the betrayal and and finally escapes, you know, being assassinated, winds up out in the desert, and now he's with to go back to t, Lawrence, for just a minute, he's with these he's with these he's with the interstellar version of nomadic Arabs, which is the image I had

in my head. And Herbert doesn't describe horses, but you can definitely like, you can see them, like, they're just they're just massive unorganized, and and that's that's probable not probably. That's not accurate. But the image you have in your head is this massive unorganized people who just need a leader, and they'll follow behind this guy because he's gonna bring them to the promised land.

And that then cycles back into the whole idea of to your point about misunderstanding, is he really the guy, or was he just the guy that was just standing there or the kid that was just standing there? Could it have been anybody? Lot of different complicated things inside of Doom, which is what makes it worthwhile to read and which is why it's been read for the last, gosh, well over 50 years now. And it has, like I said, laid the keel for, for world building.

Alright. Rounding the corner here. Can I jump on? You know, just to, Ryan, I don't know if you've seen the, the more recent film, but one of the things that film does pretty good job of is drawing attention to the manipulation that that was taking place with the with the Bene Gesserit and all of that, which is a whole, yeah, whole other commentary on on sort of, you know, it's prophecy. Was this real? You know, what what is the role of

prophecy and all of that? But back to the earlier, Hassane, your question around, you know, the the the role of a leader, the purpose of a leader. You know, I do I think that I'd be remiss if if we didn't call out and underscore just, I think, one of the most, you know, then bring it back to the book, bring about some of the more blatant lessons of the book or

statements at least to the book. You know, that, again, it maybe feel like an over an oversimplification, but I think the most important things are the what is important for a leader is that which makes him a leader. Right? His people. And so to Ryan's point and your analogy about the restaurant industry. Right? Setting someone else up for success, doing your best by them to ensure that they are successful.

I really like that, Ryan. Like, that is a great little analogous capture of the role of a leader on a one to one individual level is to best take care of the person beside you. And if you can do that on a on a group scale, on a, on a nation scale, as, you know, our protagonist does or at least, is perceived to be doing, by the people, then those are those are the leaders that are gonna be remembered.

Because, again, they're living out some of the most important axioms, which come back to the book that that survived at least in some way, shape, or form 10000 years into the future. Right? Right. Orange Catholic Bible as it's referred to. The orange the OC Bible. Yeah. Which by the way, when he fur when I first read that, when it when it first, like, dropped into the narrative, I thought, wait. What? I guess I can read it again. Kinda it kinda caught me by, kinda caught me by surprise.

Okay. Right in the corner here, solutions to problems. Right? So we live in a time, and this is one of the things that I've been talking about on this podcast this year, Dan. This is the theme of this year, driven by the and the theme well, the theme of the podcast this year has been, let's focus on solutions to problems, because we spend a lot of time talking about problems. We are in the midst, I

fundamentally believe of the 4th turning. If you know about that, that generational theory model, from William Strauss and Neil Howe, there are 4 cycles in history, that that coincide with the seasons of life. Right? So you have spring, summer, fall, and winter. And you have generations that are inside of each one of those seasons over the course of an 80 year cycle who experience all these things roughly together.

And so, currently in our world, and you can research this theory, but currently in our world, we have the baby boomers. We have gen xers. We have the millennials, and we have gen zers. Right? Those are the 4 that are going through the the current secular cycle, which, according to Strauss and Howe in their theory of cycle in history and of generations in history, that that cyclical end is either coming up by the end of 20 by beginning of 2030 or, by the end of

2040. Just depends sort of where the where we're at with that. And I look at the experiences that I've had in my career, and I I look at the chaos that has occurred ever since September 11th in our country, moral chaos, financial chaos. We we we as of this recording, there's a hurricane that's hitting Florida. Right? Because

hurricane in a long, long time. Right? And I'm not quite sure that we are going to have the competency at the federal government level that we would have had 25 or 30 years ago to address that issue. And there's always crises of competencies when you're on the back end of a historical cycle, when you're in a historical winter, which I think is what America is in now. I, so I say all that to say this

winter always turns into spring. And then my concern, and one of the reasons why I do this podcast is that if you've been in winter for so long and you've just been in survival mode when spring shows up, a, you don't believe it and b, you wreck it. So, I have I one of the things we've we've really focused on this year has been how do these books set us up for the springtime that is coming? I do believe we are at the end of a winter chaos cycle in America in particular and in the West in

general. I do believe things are coalescing and reshaping, politically, socially, morally, ethically. The core things that make us human aren't being reshaped. It's just how we react and respond to them that is being reshaped and the tools that we're using. But spring is coming. It invariably always does. There is a high time coming. It's not just all low. And I look at a book like Dune. Now

this is where this ties in. I look at a book like Dune and a messiah character or a messiah concept is always a time is a concept for a high time rather than a chaotic time. A messiah can come out of chaos, but invariably, a messiah has to exist in the spring, maybe a summer. Fall is usually a time of unraveling. This is why, and you can see this actually, the great show back in the day that was

on ABC, NYPD Blue. I'm actually, like, walk wandering through that right now and watching all those seasons, and it is the perfect unraveling show. It's perfect. We're, like, in America where we spent 25 years trying to figure out why we were unraveling, and now we're unraveled and we're we're trying to figure out how to get it all back together. But a messiah doesn't come along in a fall. A messiah usually comes along in a in a winter, a chaotic period, or an insurgent, right, does.

But then they build in the spring, and then they become a gatekeeper, and then they unravel. Institutions unravel. People unravel. The whole thing falls apart, and then you're back to where you back to where you started. And we're there right on time, I think, socially and and morally and ethically. Insurgents take over the board, right, when they create new systems. Right? And I'm seeing a bunch of insurgents floating around these

days in our time. Politics is the biggest place where we see this. You know, RFK Junior would be an insurgent. Right? Or Chelsea Gabbard would be an insurgent. Right? By the way, those are 2 people that if their party had picked them to run for presidency in our time, I think they probably would have beaten Donald Trump. I think that's a ticket that beats Donald Trump. But because the Democrat Party is unraveling, they can't pick that person. They they can't pick those

people. Right? And so you are not unraveling. It's in chaos. It's an internal chaos. It long since unraveled, but it's an internal chaos. By the way, just like the Republican party internal chaos. Right? My point in saying all this is this, I started off this podcast by saying that there's deserts everywhere, even in your head. And deserts are a place, weirdly enough, of heat and light, but they are also a place of winter. They are arid.

There's nothing there. In thinking about Dune and in thinking about leadership, How can leaders take lessons? This is a question for both of you. How can leaders take questions or take inspiration and take understanding from doing to build towards the next second spring? What are the solutions to the problems that leadership is having right now that we'll be able to build on on the other side of, you know, 2030,

right, which is again and that's when I think it's gonna be over. Like, on the other side of 2030 or even further out on the other side of 2040. What do leaders need to do? What do they need to take from doing to start building solutions to problems? I look at, you say, insurgents. I I look at, the how immigration has played out, especially in England and United States.

And if I just if you have something that is desirable and people want, they're probably going to keep coming to try and get it until they're forced to stop. Seems to be what kind of the situation is in in in that context I just mentioned of immigration. So Mhmm. I mean, yeah, it's there's a target on your back if you're at the top of the mountain. That's it. Yeah. Hasan, I think it I think at a meta level

Mhmm. With respect to Dune, I think it does come back to, the most important lesson from the book or at least the author's intended most important lesson from the book and one that I didn't necessarily take from it when I heard Schwed it at 14, which the, which is the danger of following overly charismatic leaders, which I think we've got a lot of people right now, not to get overly political in this country, following someone that is at least considered by some

to be charismatic, and mindlessly doing so. And, I'll leave that there. Mhmm. Yeah. Leave that. Put a pin in there. But but I do think it also reflects back to the importance of thinking for ourselves and keeping ourselves sharp. And again, we talked about, you know, not choosing kind of the safe, clear path of doing nothing and just kind of following calling following the flow, but but keeping our edge as leaders.

But also, continuing to think for ourselves and and challenge the current thinking that's out there, which as cliche as that sounds and as often as as it is said, of course, it's it's not done and we're all guilty of of of getting too comfortable and, and just kinda throwing our hands up and and, like, I'm not even gonna engage.

You know, bringing it back to the book. One of the things that is probably one of the reasons Elon Musk liked the book apparently, or at least I'm sold is that, there's a line that says something to the effect of, You could say that Waddib, Paul, learned quickly because his first teaching or learning was in the act of learning. And I, of course, I think the lesson there is that leadership requires effective thinking, which requires the effective,

consuming of knowledge and distillation of it very quickly. And coming from a business school environment, which is where I'm coming from, having gone to business school and then taught in business school, that's like, that's the whole thing in business school. It's like, you know, reading a business case, sifting through all the crap, and quickly getting to the bottom line. But it's, also reinforces the common phrase, which we we as parents try to have tried to instill in our daughters,

which is, you know, leaders are readers. Mhmm. And and the importance there is you're learning to think for yourself, consume information. Yes. And then think for yourself, on that. And that is also, if done frequently, constantly, effectively, keep us, you know, on track with respect to the important lessons that we learned from the past seasons.

So it's not to hopefully, repeat them, as well, which is why I've continued to come back to and wish that I had studied history as a major in undergrad, which has of as in as helpful as anything that would be and as practical, a, a subject area, more so than a lot. Yeah. Yeah. One more thing to add to my, not offering any solution with their target on your back, is yeah. For I mean, foresight, the thing that you say, Hassan, when people are like, we have to tear it down, tear it down. Well,

what do you gotta put in its place? Mhmm. What is the solution to the, you know, to the to the issue that you're having? You know? Mhmm. Yeah. There there has to be You can't just solve chaos with chaos. Correct. Right. Exactly. And sowing chaos or oh, I'm gonna use religious language here. Sowing chaos for the remission of sins, past sins, doesn't actually build for your future. It doesn't actually build for the next thing. Not unless well, not unless you're a messiah that can sort of give out

absolute absolution. Are you living in the past otherwise? Right. Exactly. You're just living in the past with us, which is which is why I don't want you and I have talked about this before, Ryan, but, like, I I don't want things torn down. I want things to stay up. Let's build on top of them. Right? Let's let's, let's use those those things, those concepts, those ideas. They are saving those statues in those buildings to build the next thing, to go in the

next space. But again, that's springtime thinking. And I do believe that. Well, as I said before, my long run up to my question, I do believe spring is coming. And I think it's time, long past time for us to stop talking about the problems and to begin to at least propose, even if they are radical sounding, propose some solutions to whatever the problems are we believe we are having. All right. That is a high note. It is a high note. And I'm gonna

go out on it. Much much more much more, catchy than Game of Thrones winter is coming. I like that spring is coming. And also bring you back to the dark night. Mhmm. Night is darkest just before the dawn. Spring is coming. Right? So that's I like that. So optimistic. I feel great. Oh, I'm I'm I'm pragmatically optimistic. Absolutely. I would like to thank both Dan Bental and Ryan Stout for joining me today on the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast. And with that, well,

we're out. Have a beautiful day. Thank you so much, Jason. Brian? Dan, pleasure.