Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells, and this is the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast. Bonus. There's no book reading usually on these bonus episodes. These are, in general, interviews, rants, raves, insights, and other gentle and sometimes not so gentle audio musings and conversations with interesting people about leadership.
Because listening to me and an interesting guest talk about leadership for at least a couple of hours is better than reading and trying to understand yet another business book. And today, of course, because I created the format, we're gonna break the format. I feel like Pablo
Picasso a little bit. We're gonna break our rule about covering business books, and we are going to talk today about another business book following on the heels of our most recent bonus episode conversation around the 4th turning by William Strauss and Neil Howe, and the end of the world is just the beginning by Peter Zihan. Sometimes there is a business book about leadership that is so good that as a person in leadership development space, I sit back
while reading it. I nod my head and I say to myself, damn. I wish I had written this. The book we are talking about today is easily one of the top five business and leadership books written in the last 10 years, and it was written by a former, never x as I've been informed, a former navy seal and current podcast host whose name you'll
know when I say it. This book details how lessons learned from over 20 years of military experience can be put to use in the corporate world, in the business world, and even in the civic and family world. It also shows that military culture can be just as screwed up, just as dysfunctional, and just as in need of change as any culture, civilian or otherwise operating outside of the military. And we are
going to take somebody or we're going to be joined, not take. We're going to be joined on our journey through this book today by a guest who is the number one best selling author in 13 Amazon categories, a 5 time worldwide bestseller for books and leadership. He's a top 40 under 40, candidate in tech and innovation, a bronze star medal winner for meritorious service in war zones, from service in Iraq and Afghanistan, and he was a White House military
officer of the year. And if that's not enough, a TEDx Southlake Tahoe speaker. I would like to welcome to the podcast today, Atlas Altman. How are you doing, Atlas? Hey, Hassan. Man, you know, I said it before, but I gotta say it again, man. Your voice is so silky smooth. I just I couldn't wait until you got into, you know, introducing me, so that I could interrupt it for a second to just realize if I was it was in a dream or if it was real life.
And I pitched myself a couple times while you're while you're doing the intro. Thanks for having me on the show. You know, I love your show. I love all the content that you put out. You put a lot of work into this. And man, you are right. It is way better to listen to you on a book and you listen to you and a guest on a book than it is reading a book. It's like when you read a book and then you go see the movie. Right. You know, you're yeah. You're like, well, the
podcast said more. So Well, it's it's interesting because I'm a huge movie guy. Just as an aside, I am a huge movie guy, and I've I, in in my most my more recent, regular episode podcast, I've been talking a lot about the intersections of film and books and all that. And I've been try I had good discipline the 1st couple of years keeping all that out, but it's starting to leak in a little bit. So I gotta tighten up I gotta tighten up a little bit. But I'm a huge film guy. Huge. I love it.
Yeah. Yeah. I love I love content in general. So thanks for having me, Assad. I appreciate this, man. This is gonna be awesome. You ready? Absolutely. Let's jump into it. Let's let's says as the author would say, let's, let's get some. Yeah. Let's get after it. So today, we will be talking about extreme ownership, how US Navy SEALs lead and win by Jocko Willink and Leafa Babin. So I have the black cover today if you're watching on the video. Atlas has
2 different versions. He has the white cover, and he has the black cover version. So he is doubling up on his ownership, such as it were. Now Extreme Ownership opens. And, again, you can go get this book. I would encourage you to go pick it up. Extreme Ownership opens with part
1, winning the war with Ian. And so we're going to do something that we've been doing on our podcast recently where we've been sort of summarizing some of the chapters and summarizing some of the content and giving you a broad overview of what's in the book because, obviously we can't cover everything in the book. And also, you know, we'd like to talk with the guests particularly one like Atlas who's very well versed in the content, but also very well versed in how it applies to our real
leadership lives. So the very first chapter opens up in the Malab district in Ramadi in Iraq. And, Jocko describes what exactly extreme ownership actually means through the lens of a blue on blue, through the lens of a fratricide. Now war is a dirty business. William Tecumseh Sherman said that, and you cannot make it any better. And the first chapter opens up with what exactly ownership actually means in a place where winning and losing is
not about the balances on an account sheet. It's actually about the blood in the streets and people's lives. From there we move into and or jocko moves into the idea of no bad teams and only there being bad leaders which is an important distinction with the difference that many people fail to make, in in all of all sorts of leadership realms.
And when I was thinking about this book, when I was reading it, a very particular story that I'm gonna tell here in just a moment, really resonated, really made this piece of the book resonate with
me. He moves towards this idea of belief, when and this is an idea this is a concept in part one that really focuses around the need of the team to believe in the mission and really embedding that belief not only in the team, but making sure that leaders actually articulate that vision, articulate that belief to the team. And finally, part 1 of extreme ownership ends with with, the coauthor, Leif Babin. I believe this is Leif's part. No. It
was actually Jocko's part. Sorry. With, with Jocko talking about, probably the most important aspect of any, leadership act or any leaders act, and that is that is the aspect of checking the ego. And we're gonna talk about all of these different aspects today with Atlas, But I wanna kinda talk a little bit about a story that occurred to me when I was
reading part 1. So and I've never talked about this on the podcast before, But, many years ago, when I was in administrative position in higher education and, most of my career, the first part of it anyway, before I started my leadership consultancy and started doing a whole bunch of the other things like this podcast that I'm doing now, I spend a lot of time in higher education, training and leading teams of anywhere between 12
to 50, 18 to 19 year olds. And what I tell people very often, particularly if I'm in a corporate training, scenario when I'm teaching and leading and training 45 to 60 year olds, is that the only difference between you and the 19 year olds is the number of years. Because y'all have the same kind of stuff going on, same kind of challenges. Well, many years ago, back in 2012, well over 10 years ago now, I was leading a team of college
students that collapsed. And it was a leadership failure, on my part, actually. And it took a lot for me to understand why the team failed. Now I was hired, of course, to fire somebody on the team, and I, of course, I did that part successfully. But I didn't realize that one of the dichotomies of leadership, and we're going to talk a
lot about this later on. Jocko talks about this in Jocko and Leaf both talk about this in their book, and it is one of the principles of extreme ownership But one of the dichotomies of leadership is you can do the right thing But you could do it with the wrong motives Actually, that's there's something biblical in there as well. I failed to check my ego, you know, with that team.
And it turned out that because I failed to check my ego, even in the manner in which I fired that person, I turned out to be a bad leader, which created a toxic team. I failed to get people to buy in and to believe in the mission overall of that team. And it was a pretty substantially large team of my 25 student leaders, all of whom were 19 years old, all of whom were looking to me for leadership, and I was not providing it. As a result, I had to check
myself. I had to check my ego after some good counsel from a supervisor of mine. I had to check my ego, and then I had to constantly retake ownership over the team for the remaining year and a half that I was with that team. All of the aspects of extreme ownership that I failed on that Jocko talks about in his experience with the seal teams in Iraq and in Ramadi. I had those exact same experiences just in a different kind of way and
experienced the exact same kind of thing. And I'm sure Atlas is going to talk a little bit about some of his experiences today, as it relates to extreme owners. Bad teams and bad leaders believing and checking the ego, of course. And so I'd like to turn it over to him with this question, just to start Atlas. This is a very jocko question. So we're going to start here. How can leaders win the war within, How does that happen? Well, I mean, it starts off with with exactly what you
just said. It starts off with checking your ego. So the story that I that I'm gonna share with your audience is one that, I don't share too often, but it's an extreme story, that mixes a special mission with presidential support and diplomacy. And it was when I realized that I could be different and I could win the war within. And it goes like this. I was in Afghanistan, for a long time, and I realized that, there's a lot of violence there. I was in Iraq for a long time, and
I realized that there was a lot of violence there. And in college, I was a bouncer. I used to fight a lot. I come from a family that said, you know, if you get into a fight, you come back as a winner, or you get into another fight. My whole life, I've answered with violence with violence. But in Indonesia, I was on a presidential mission, and, a lot of the things that Jocko and and Leif talk about, they they kind of roll into this.
I had to take extreme ownership of this situation because I had the responsibility of bringing the president's communication device into this peace conference. And the security guard, who I didn't know was a security guard, told me it wasn't coming in. And I was like, it's it's coming in. I'm bringing in my device for the president of the United States. They're like, no. It
isn't. So I asked him what I needed to do, and after jumping through a lot of hoops that he didn't think I jump through, I I had a diplomatic note from the state department, which is an agreement between countries to bring in this device specifically, and he was mad. So he ushered me into this back room, and he's wearing this
black outfit. Right? All black. And it looked like a uniform, but I didn't really realize it was a uniform until I was in a room with a whole bunch of dudes in black uniforms all around me, and I have this device. So I did what I always do, and but this is what you do whenever you're in a situation where you think violence is about to ensue. You put your hands up, You go into guard. You know all about guard. We're probably gonna go talk about some some guard a little bit
later, but you go into guard. That way you know something's coming. So I put my hands up and I said, hey, I don't know why I'm here, and he swung and hit me right in the face. Now I just told you I'm a man that answers violence with violence, but as I looked down as I looked down after I got clogged in the face, I saw this word diplomat, and it was on my chest. I was wearing a suit. I was not able to
fight. I'm not able to. The agency that I worked for told me if I ever got into a violent confrontation, I was going to get kicked out of the agency, and it took me years to get into this position that I was in to work directly for the president of the United States. So I had this war inside me. Okay? It just brewed up, and I had this emotional onset that I've never had before as I pushed the guy off, and I grabbed the device and left the room. Immediately, cameras went my direction,
people saw it, and I got the call. What just happened? And I was like, hey, I'll tell you when you get here. And they're like, are you okay? And I was like, yeah. So just like in the story where, this top leadership was coming to the scene to the ex where I was. Same thing happened with me. They're coming, and they wanna know what happened. What did I do? What did my team do? What happened specifically? And like all of this, I left the team out of all of this. The team went in, did
everything they were supposed to do. They were in the venue. I handled everything from the point of of conflict. Mhmm. Because I'm used to doing that. So when they showed up, they asked me to go through this, and then I had to struggle. Unlike Jocko, I went through all of the emotions. I, you know, I asked the team, you know, whatever he did the same thing. I asked the team is is there something we could have done better? Nobody's gonna give me any answers on that, because everyone
feels at fault that I just got hit in the face, you know. And instead of them trying to come on and figure out how they were part of it, I just immediately shut that down because I've already read this book. I had read the the white version before it turned into the black version later. The, you know, the black's, number one New York Times Center with q and a's. This is the big one. This is the book
that I was like, I'm gonna get the q and a's on this. But when I got there and the leadership came up to me, they they said what happened? And I said, hey, you know, this is what happened, and I I couldn't answer with violence, and then the seal, the the president's military aid was a seal at that day. And I'm looking at his Trident, and like I just you know, I can see what they go through to get that Trident, to wear that
Trident, and it's a lot. It's a lot. So, he's looking at me like why didn't you hit the guy and he knows that I couldn't have. So he just walks away and like I just I felt a little little wet thing pop out of my eye, and I'm like all of a sudden I'm crying. I have no idea why I'm crying. And I'm like okay, put that back, and then I'm angry. So I went through anger, fear that I was gonna lose my job, and then like I squirted 1, I I don't cry, so I
didn't know what the heck was happening. It wasn't out. My eyes were just pushing out this this bubble that I couldn't understand, and all of that came back to, you know, the higher brass came down and they said hey let's keep him in the job. He did the right thing, and then they got me paired with a diplomatic response agent because I'm not, you know, I'm not a politician. I don't know what I'm doing. So they put some professional in there, and the guy was like, hey.
We're gonna go see this guy. He's gonna apologize. I need you to say, yeah, yeah, I accept your apology. Then we're walking away. And you know how that went. The guy was like, hey, I'm a Christian. I'm like, well, dude, well, Christians don't hit other Christians. Christians don't hit people, but I accept your apology. And then I walked away and the the political aide was like, oh, my gosh. That was amazing. Like, I had been trained for years to say that kind of stuff. I was just you know
what I mean? I was just me. And the whole thing is, like, whenever you read a good book, and this is why I think we're talking about it, when you read a good book and you take it and you're like, how can I apply what he did, which was a grandiose scale, I mean, somebody died under his watch? And he he was like it's my responsibility. No one died in my situation. I got clocked in the face, but still my job was on the
table. You know, the president's movements, and how he was gonna act, and how he was able to do his presidential duties, They were all on my shoulders, and there's no fail. So I had a different type of stress that was still really high that I had to work through, and it was a war within me, and it was a war within. Do I blame somebody else? This dude hit me for no reason. I could have said that. That would have been stupid, but like I, you know,
I I obviously had my hands up. I don't know. You know, I maybe I provoked something. So honesty is the best policy, all of that, but the other part to this this whole chapter that I gotta end on is is Leif says it
in there. He said there's no bad teams, only bad leaders. And he talks about the boat example where they had these seal team training scenarios where one team was always losing, and one team was always winning, and they flopped the leaders and the team that was losing, became like the winning team. You know, and and like the the winning team was number 2, but the leaders matter. And it all hit the
whole the whole thing is extreme ownership. When you realize that your environment is controlled by you, if there's struggles, you have to get through it. You have to figure out what's going on. Nobody's gonna help you, man. No one's gonna help you through the hard times. It's in you to get through that situation. And when you start looking in, the battle becomes a whole lot better. Sun Tzu puts it this way in The Art of War, If you know your your enemies, you'll win half the
battles. If you know yourself, you'll win half the battles. If you know yourself and the enemy, you'll win a 100% of the battle. But here's the war within. The enemy is usually yourself. You talk to yourself more than anyone else talks to you in your life. The voice that you hear the most is you. That voice should be positive, especially in conflict. You know, when I when I was crying, I didn't think, oh my gosh, I'm crying. Oh, how embarrassing. I was like, why am I crying?
Immediately I attacked it. Like why is this happening? And then I realized I'm going through something. My body's trying to figure out what's going on because we didn't just pretzel the guy we normally would have pretzeled. You know what I mean? I couldn't get into the way I normally solve problems, and my body's like why couldn't we just do that? Why couldn't we just Why couldn't we engage that muscle memory? Yeah. What
what is happening to you? Are you okay? And it's like going through all the emotions and like that's a real war and we all have it. So what a great question to ask because it really is a war within, and you have to own it. And that's what the book talks about. That's what my book talks about. And that's basically all my book talks about is like putting the right people in and around your environment. To where they influence you to be better, to be bigger, to be the best
version of you. And whenever you realize that's on you too, your network changes and you start to become somebody that people don't recognize. The kid that everyone used to, we used to talk to and be like, you know, that kid, he can't, whatever. They don't say that anymore. That stops because you focus in on what you were specifically made to do. And that niche is what some people call it. It's inside you man, but it's different with everybody. And that is why
leadership is a $1,000,000,000 a day business. $1,000,000,000 a day is being spent on how to fix leadership. And that's because they can't, everyone's got a different mode. Everyone's got a different leadership opinion. So whenever you start realizing that and you start looking in to how you can lead, not how someone else can lead, but use someone else's lessons to become a better version of you, That's when you start winning that war within. What do you think about
that? Oh, I think that's I think that's exactly correct. Several things occurred to me while you were talking. I was taking notes. So, you know, one of the things that I wrote about in my 3rd book, 12 rules for leaders, the foundation of intentional leadership is that leadership is like pornography. Everyone knows what it is when they can spot it. And everyone knows when it's not when they don't see it. And that's why leadership is, to your point, you know, a
$1,000,000,000 a day you know, industry. That's why there are over 400,000 plus of volumes on Amazon.com just in the leadership category alone. And what people are searching for is how their individual lived experiences and this is what what has done so brilliantly in Extreme Ownership, and in your books and in my books, how could your lived experiences, scale up? Right? What's the ways that they can go to a much
larger world? And that's something that I wanna I wanna ask you about because you mentioned something in there in that great story, about the Indonesia presidential mission and the dudes in the black uniforms that have been jumped through all those hoops. Dude, let me tell you too. Like, the guys that I was with that were from the country, they were like, don't mess with them. They'll bury you. They'll kill you. And I was like, I'll kill
them. I ain't I ain't have you know, but I didn't even think about any of that. It's gonna be a close it's gonna be a close run thing. We're gonna find out. We're gonna find out. I wanna talk I wanna ask you a little bit about your background so that people can get to know you a little bit a little bit more. So, how do you go from being a bouncer in college to being in the diplomat core, you know, in Indonesia? How did what's that life path? How
does that happen? And you can give me either the the the the the 10 minutes version or you can give me the 5 minute condensed version, however you wanna however you wanna do it. But how do you go? Because a lot of people would be interested in that. Yeah. How I'm interested in that. Heck, that's why I'm asking the question. How do you go from bouncer to diplomat? Like, what series of decisions was made that got you into that room? Because no one was in that room by accident, not even you. Do
yeah. No. No. It's very, very, very selective on who comes into that environment. Very selective. Okay. Yeah. So early on in my life, I started watching TV like everyone else looking for man examples, And one of the man examples that I always got was Rogan, man. Rogan used to be the person that would stand up to someone when they were wrong. And he had that confidence that, you know, look man, you're wrong, you're
just wrong. And people were like, no I'm not wrong, and they would get emotionally charged, and then Rogan would correct because he could. He had the ability physically to stop anything that was happening, you know, but that he was actually he was controlling intellectual, but he was he was controlled until he didn't he didn't have to be. And someone would would press that button, he would he would answer the call. So I started looking at him and other
like movie examples, man. I mean, my my mom, I I talk about it on Ted's stage, my mom used to put me in these scenarios where she would she would send me to she would have me read books or watch movies that had strong leaders in them. And what I found in strong leaders was a physical health acumen. Like every strong leader was actually strong. Now whether it was physical or intellectual, the strength that component was needed. So I found myself at a very early age, and when my adopted dad
told me, it was like, hey, you're a strong kid. So I found myself gravitating towards the violent side of strength, towards what can I do? So I I took martial arts as a kid. I I took in, like, you know, all the stuff we all do. Right? All the stuff. The sports and stuff. And then, that turned into what I wanted to do in my life, which at freaking 3 years old, my grandpa was in special forces. He had me around a bunch of special forces people. I always wanted to be in special
forces. So my mom kinda always put me in that environment, and then whenever it was my choice, and and I had been studying all the leadership decisions because really that was where I was as a kid. I was interested in how people make these decisions. Mhmm. I found the 5 w model. Right? Who, what, where, when, and why to be used everywhere. And then I thought it was really fancy, because I added how. So I had like 6 things, and I'd be like, like, you know,
and I'd be like boom we're doing this. Strong voice. And so I started looking at my scenarios of where I was gonna go, and I was gonna go in the army, because that's where special forces is. And, my dad was in the army. He was in the special forces community as well, my adopted dad, and he said, no. Go in the air force. And, he's like, it's it's gonna be better for you. You're gonna have all these jobs that you're gonna be able to do what you wanna do in the air force. So,
I went through, the air force. I got selected to be an officer, which is a full time leader. That's what Jocko and Leif were doing. They were commanding. And this is what my mom really wanted me to do anyway. She wanted me to be a leader in in future wars. She named me Joshua Michael, and she used to frequently tell me that stands for leader of warriors. Joshua, you know, after
Moses, was a strong leader in the bible. Right? And then, with Michael, Michael being the general of God's armies, we're a big Catholic family, so so she's like this is what your name means. I want you to be a leader of warriors. Not standard what you hear from my mom, but that's what my mom used to say. So whenever I came up to my mom Mom mom was a warrior in and of herself. She was one of those Spartan women. You either come back out of your shield or, like, you know, buried
with it. Yeah. Yeah. So all of that, that transpired into, me going into the air force and really making her, but she got mad. She got so mad because she wanted to be an army brat as an army child. She wanted to be an army spouse, which she was. Then she wanted to be an army mother. She wanted to have, like, an army life, and I went to the air force. And, you know, before she passed away, she saw me at the White House leading soldiers,
and that was a special mission. So, like, transferring through my career, special things allowed themselves or afforded opportunities for me to go into unique environments like the White House. And Yeah. That was one of the special missions that I got to do after doing special missions in Iraq. So I did special missions in Iraq, then it brought me into this environment called combat comm, and I was in the mob is what they call it.
And combat communications is a group that goes out, takes over a field, sets up an airstrip, and then has the airfield come in so that we start wars. That's how that works. Got it. So I was doing that, and then we started a worldwide one because the community got bigger because of the things that were going on in the world. Mhmm. And I spent lots of time, man, doing that. And I went from being in Iraq winning a bronze star like you told like you told the the earlier.
And that's not something the air force gets. That's an army medal for like, the the the beginning of that says while engaged with the enemy. That's not something that you get in the Air Force usually. You don't get a medal that says while engaged with the enemy Right. If you're in the Air Force. So that's an army medal, and, I got that, and my mom was pretty proud of that, because my grandpa had a bronze star. He had a purple heart. I didn't want one of
those. But, you know, he did the the MacVeesock thing. So all of that transpired into the opportunity to go assess to be at the White House, and that took 2 years. And I went through lots of, background checks. My security clearance had to be what they call, a presidential security clearance. Mhmm. So I had to have carpoolanche. They had to do a ton of research on me, and then assessments and then tests and all that. And then I got brought into the team, but
not the team that was around the president, just just the team. And then I got to work, you know, around the president, which is that one I told you. And then 2 years later, I started working on the president's staff as one of the top top five people in the agency to go represent. And that was that was interesting. Living at the White House was fun. So we've we've had folks on this podcast before,
with, with extensive military experience. We last year, we covered, or last season, sorry, season 2, we covered the book, About Face by Colonel David Hackworth, with a good friend of mine who, did a couple of tours in, in Iraq and a tour in Afghanistan as well. Another one of our somewhat regular co hosts was a graduate of West Point
and did a tour in Iraq. Right. And so, one of the things that you and I had talked about before we press record on this was, and I want to say this early, what we're seeing happen right now in, I would say, the last 5 or 6 years, and it's really started to speed up after the
Afghanistan withdrawal. What you're starting to see is all of those men who like yourself, Jocko, the the 3 people or 2 people, 3 people that I've named already, you know, starting to come out and starting to really say to the civilian world, hey. We have this military experience. We have this military background. You should really pay attention to us. And it seems like it's on a sharper edge primarily because of a couple of things, I think. And I don't you don't necessarily have to
respond to this. It's just an observation. Primarily, I think because of the politics around Iraq and Afghanistan that were sharply different than the politics around everything that it's always compared to, which is Vietnam Mhmm. Or even the first Persian Gulf War.
And then you also have a good chunk of people who are my age, I'm 45 this year, who are my age, who are quite frankly self consciously determined not to do the same things and not to have the same sort of social and cultural responses to folks like yourself and Jocko and all of that and all those folks, not have the same cultural responses as our parents did to folks in their time. We're we're we're we're hyper self conscious about that. And that's where you get the thank you for
your service kind of stuff and all of that. Right? And I get it that that it sounds flat when when you hear it because it's just a job. And at the same time, when only less than I think it's less than 1% of the available male population serves in the United States now, forget World War II. That's just gone. Less than 1% of the available male population served in in,
in Iraq and Afghanistan. When we run across somebody who's speaking from that space, like a Jocko, like you, like the folks that I brought on to this podcast before, we run across people who are coming speaking from that space. We do we do as a generation sit up and listen. And quite frankly, folks who are younger than us, where the the military participation rate is even lower, also sit up and
pay attention. And so I think that there's some real, I know that there's some real leadership value in those experiences that again, the military isn't and let's not put it up on a pedestal. It is another sphere of how we operate in the world, but there are lessons that could be brought across from that sphere. That's why we're talking to you and covering this book today. Well, so the military is the largest organization in the world when it comes to people employed. Mhmm. How much is spent?
Land, buildings, like, assets. So, like, the military itself is the biggest corporation, if you want to think about it in those terms. And lessons pulled out of that environment, usually have a life or death consequence. So I can see where the lessons are, but I do I gotta be
careful, like, who I'm listening to. Right. Because what's happened is, especially in the last couple years, people have transferred into becoming thought leaders without actually producing thoughts that are fully developed. So when you start to latch on to something that isn't ready and you start to go with it, you have half back half baked ideas that come out, and those half baked ideas are dangerous. Right. So, like, whenever you have, I only I was really
careful, and I used a couple people's books. You know, Jocko and Laffer were one of them. But I used a couple books to, like, get through the process, because the Department of Defense has to clear your book to make sure that you're not, you know, divulging any operational secrets. And I'm I'm pretty pretty cake when I don't I don't talk anything operations. I talk personal experience. Right? Right. So my personal experience doesn't talk about operations
most of the time. Time. So I was very careful to take things that actually were fully developed and put them in a book. I'm very careful what I speak, like the the story that I share with you. I don't share with it too I don't share that too often, but whenever I do, that's fully developed so that you can realize you're going to go through something hard. It may not be what I went through, but you're going to go through something hard, and your body and your emotions are going to flare. And
when they do, realize it. And then realize you can control it. That's the lesson that that I like to that's a fully developed lesson. You know what I mean? I don't share things that aren't fully developed. No. I like it. I love that. I love that idea that half baked ideas are dangerous. Yeah. And and you I love it how you tied that directly to this idea that the you compared the military to a corporation. And of course, going back to Eisenhower, the military
industrial complex. Yep. Yada yada yada yada. We know. Okay. Social spending is still more in the United States than military spending is, but I won't get into all that. Anyhow, it's true. It's very true. Like, there's more money in corporations than there ever will be in the military.
Trust me. Exactly. But just looking at the military as a corporate entity, just like in any other corporate entity, taking that idea to its logical conclusion, you're going to have some people that are going to be at the pinnacle of the peak of their powers who are going to have fully baked ideas. You're going to have a bunch of people in the middle who have half baked ideas, who are running around thinking their ideas are fully
baked. And then you're going to have an even larger mass of people at the bottom who have no ideas and just wanna ascend the hierarchical ladder. Right? And to say or do anything to get up that ladder. And so, I agree. Like, we do have to be careful as people who are purveying leadership ideas to make sure that our ideas aren't half baked and make sure that they are fully thought through. And that's one of the reasons
why I do this podcast. It's because this is it gives me an opportunity to talk through ideas with folks, reality check my ideas against not only a book but also an interesting guest, and then see if this idea is actually real. Like, am I actually seeing something that's real here, or am I just making it up as I go along? So it's true. Yeah. One other thought, and then we'll go back to the book. All right. You mentioned,
how most people engage in negative self talk. And so by my master's degree is in conflict management and in conflict resolution. Right? I did a lot of divorce and family mediations. I've done my fair share of tough negotiations. And we'll talk about a little bit more about this, but I was a I was a fighter. I was a playground warrior from the time I was 12 till That's right. I stopped being a playground warrior. Right?
Sometimes I will say to people, you know, I'm part of the last generation where we actually had real fist fights about things like real genuine fistfights. People don't fight anymore. Well, interestingly enough, I was in line, and this will kind of date this recording, but I was in line to to vote yesterday. And there were 2 kids standing behind me, 2 young men standing behind me, and a young woman standing in front of me. And they both knew her from the local high school.
They both just turned all 3 of them just turned 18 and they were voting for the first time. And I was like, oh, okay. But they actually talked to each other. And I actually said this out loud while I was standing in line to them. And I was, of course, on my phone looking at email. And I look up from the email, and I go, wait. I thought people in your generation didn't talk to each other without phones. Like, this is They're, like, get your phones out. This is crazy. This is crazy. What is
happening? I can hear your voice. And and to their credit, the 2 the 2 young men behind me just started laughing. And the young lady, she kinda rolled her eyes as most 18 I I have an 18 year old daughter. So, like, yeah, she's gonna do that thing. Who's this weirdo talking to me? Right? But neither not one of them had their phones out. They were focused on what they needed to do
and and to be in line. And they're having a conversation later on as we move through the line about the, about something going on at their local high school. And I won't say where the locality is. It doesn't really matter. But about something going on at their local high school, and they said the 2 boys were talking and they go or they said to each other, well, XYZ person. I don't remember the name. It doesn't matter. XYZ person, punched that other person the other day. And then like the person
who got. Like, apparently rolled up to this other person later on and, like, waylaid him. Wow. Yeah. Like, waylaid him totally. And so they were talking about it, and then the girl in front of me, she starts laughing, and she starts telling them about what she heard about this. Oh, and, and so she starts telling them what she heard about this this, this interaction. And I I got to admit, my heart kind of warmed a little bit.
Got to admit. And that's terrible of me. I know it is, but I was like, at least at some point, people aren't just social media warriors. At some point, it does you you can hit that Mike Tyson, you know, sort of idea that everybody's strong online, but at a certain point, you're gonna get punched in the mouth. Yeah. And and no one has a plan. And no one has a plan. No one has a plan for that. And so it did weirdly enough. It sort of
rolled my heart. That's an interesting little aside there. I had to tell I had to tell that story because that happened yesterday. Because I do often feel like we are part of that last cohort where physical confrontation for the words that come out of your mouth, there's going to be an escalation there. And it is and the skill set of being an adult in conflict management is learning how to deescalate
from that or not to allow it to get to that. And that's where to tie this all into self talk, that's where your self talk has to come in. And so the great Zig Ziglar once said years ago, the motivational speaker, Zig Ziglar said, you know, almost 99% of our internal conversation is negative. Mhmm. And we need to re we need to switch the switch the gears on that. And of course, scientific research and psychological research on that
has proven that the vast majority of our self talk is negative. Now seals, special forces, air force, you know, special forces folks, One of the ways that they teach or train, and you probably went through this, is is reinforcing positive self talk versus negative self talk. Let's talk a little bit about that, and then we'll go back to the book. We'll talk a little bit about that. How do we how do we switch our self talk so it's more positive rather than negative?
Yeah. Well, so it depends on where you are in which environment, but there's a lot of things that, that come out of that that special operations environment that, breed positive influences. The the the way what I what I gotta start off with though is there's a lot of negative self talk in that environment too. Because whenever you have a bunch of alpha people comparing each other to other alpha people, there's a negative connotation where someone might be
faster, stronger, smarter in certain areas. So what the special operations community is really good at and why we do really well, especially in American Special Forces, is we start looking at everyone's strengths, and we put them together, and we make them a real tight knit group, and then we put them on a mission. After they've figured out who's strong at what, after they know where they belong. And then this talks we'll we'll go back into this probably a little bit later, but this
talks about the the decentralized command. If I know you're really good at something, I'm gonna trust you to do it without question. And so, you start looking at all those things. They ask you during the assessment process to come on any special operations team. Like what are you good at? The strengths and weaknesses questions that everyone gets in an interview Mhmm. It's it's dissected at a a very cellular level whenever you're assessing to be
in a special operations environment. They make you take, tests that are cognitive in nature to figure out things that you may not know about yourself. They make you take personality tests. They test the way you are from an EQ or an EI, emotional intelligence perspective. And then I I like to breed all that into what I'm what I like to call, and this is still half baked, so be careful. Emotional equity. And what that does is
it builds up a certain amount of self worth. So at night, I look at my schedule, and I say, what did I do today? And the things that I didn't do normally would get like a, oh, you didn't get to it? I'm like, yes, I can do that better tomorrow. And I start to push that into an equity mode to where whenever I am ready to do, like, a podcast with you, and we talked a couple times. You know, when I'm ready to do a podcast with you, it's gonna be a good
podcast. And so I know it's coming, I know it's coming, and the build up to that instead of the let down, it works in an equity mode for me. I'm putting sweat equity into something that's gonna be great, equity mode for me. I'm putting sweat equity into something that's gonna be great when it comes out. I'm putting this equity in. So I move it into an equity bucket, and I have emotional equity. And I really learned that in the special operations, you know,
environments. Because I got on these teams, man. And I'll probably talk about it a little bit, but if we go into chapter 11, I could hold off and tell you this story later. I could tell you now. Yeah. Hold hold on hold on and tell us the story when we get to chapter 11 because I wanna I wanna hold on to that because that's, that's, what is that? Decisiveness and uncertainty, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's hold off and talk about that. Let's go back to the book.
Yeah. Let's, let's hold off on that. Back to the book, Back to extreme ownership, how US Navy SEALs lead and win by Jocko Willink and Leif Babin. By the way, you do need to check out Jocko's podcast. His podcast, quite frankly, was the inspiration for what I do here, except I read classic books. He's doing something a little bit more modern, but we're both pursuing again the same thing in the same direction, trying to, trying to
promulgate. That's a fancy word, trying to promulgate fully baked ideas into the world. So back to the book. So we got through part 1. Let's look at part 2, the laws of combat. Okay. So in looking at the laws of combat and extreme ownership, this is divided up into 4 parts. Right? And the first part opens up with, Leif Babin describing, covering the flank in south central Ramadi, Iraq, and talking about what it means to engage in a process called
cover and move. Particularly a process of cover and move when you're in a retreat where, and I love saying this, it's almost in line from the movie Armageddon, when there are no good options, you just have to pick the best of all of the bad ones. And cover and move is an interesting idea where no one person is allowed to not be covered, but also no one person is allowed to stay static, right, and is allowed
to merely nest in place. With cover and move, it allows a small team to, engage in a fundamental tactic of breaking down silos and depending upon each other. It also encourages teams to develop trust. And Leaf talks a lot about that in his application to business and the principle. Then from there, we move into this idea of simple, which was this chapter was written by Jocko. And simple is the idea that plan complexity defeats you. The most simple plan is the best one, as a matter
of fact. And then we're gonna I'm gonna talk a little bit about jujitsu. He paraphrases from, his great pal and, jiu jitsu instructor and the great jiu jitsu competitor, Dean Lister, in talking about how jiu jitsu is simple but not easy, and I can testify to that. But plans should be as complex as they need to be, but no more complex. And that is something that a lot of leaders struggle with because they get they fall in love with their own complexity. Right? They become seduced by their own
complexity. And Jocko breaks that down very effectively as an application to business in this chapter. And from simple, we're moving to prioritization and execution, something you probably if you listen to the Jocko podcast, you've heard him talk a lot about this, but priority prioritization, and execution, this chapter was written by Leaf, and it talks about how how do you kill as many bad guys as possible with the, with the
US marines and the soldiers in Ramadi? And how do you do that when everything is going to hell, quite frankly, and all of the available options are exploding upon you at once as a leader and when the massive pressure of a situation is pushing on you. Countless problems on the battlefield and in life, snowball, each one becoming larger and larger and larger. How do you prioritize and execute? I'm gonna talk a little bit about that because my mom used to say something that I think Jocko would
agree with, actually, on that one. And then finally, decentralized command, which you were just talking about with Atlas. Decentralized command is the idea that the people below you as a leader need to be able to actually lead, but that's only half of it. Right? Junior leaders need to know and need to have the confidence that you're actually going to support them as the senior leader. You're going to support them and trust them in their decision making.
You're going to allow them to experience the consequences of their successes and failures. And I wrote about this in my book, 12 Rules for Leaders. You're going to allow them to not only experience the consequences and failures, but you're also going to avoid as a leader yourself, what I call this is my version, I guess, of decentralized, command. You're going to avoid the blame credit trap where leaders want to give away all the blame and take all the credit.
Those are the laws of combat. That's in part 2 of extreme ownership. And let's gonna talk a little bit about a couple of things that relate when I think of this chapter. So, I've built teams before in my leadership consultancy, and I've worked with teams obviously in other contexts. And I've built with teams working on projects. Most recently, I'm building a local team, to do a
podcast project for our local community. Right? Really cool idea doing an old time radio show because I'm a huge fan of those kinds of things. Right? But I cannot do it all by myself. I need about 6 other people. 4 to 6 is usually the optimal team size. You cannot do everything at once as an You cannot do everything at once. And I've been an entrepreneur my entire almost my entire career and the places where I have not been allowed to be an entrepreneur,
I've struggled. But even inside that, when I've been an entrepreneur, I've realized that the first thing, the biggest challenge to the team being the success is me. I'm the biggest challenge to the team being the success. Any leader is the biggest challenge to the team being the success, because if the leader doesn't check their ego, then there can't
be covered and move Plans can't be made simple. We cannot prioritize and execute because everything is in the number one slot all of the time, And we cannot have trust in order to effectively engage in decentralized command. My mom used to say that the number one slot is called number 1 for a reason because only one thing can go in the number one slot. And then after that you can have everything else I think Jako would agree so would leaf It's what's picking.
It's choosing what goes into that number one slot that's hard for us as leaders. And so the question I have for Atlas, after we look at laws of combat and thinking about your own experience and thinking about your own life Is how can leaders follow the laws of combat? You know that are described in part 2 here and I think that this is the core of the book. These ideas are simple decentralized command prioritize and execute, and of course, you know, cover and move.
How can leaders apply those laws of combat to their their leadership lives? I like it. Well, one of the one of the parts of this book that I absolutely love is 2 words, and it's decisively engaged. Mhmm. That's not something people normally hear. Decisively engaged, as as they describe as Jocko describes, is whenever there is no good way out. Like, the only thing that can happen is you have to win or you die. Right. You're you can't get out, of the
building, and you can't get out on a road. You have to go through something. So what do you go through? And you pick the least worst option. That's what what you're trying to do. That's what that's what everybody's trying to do, but I'm with you on that. These are the core principles that a leader must think about. Cover and move is how people the people that you control, the people that you are in charge of, the people that are going to do the work, how do they
operate. And in order to do that, what the book doesn't cover, which I'll add to it, which it's something that that I'm sure you you have probably talked about whenever you're doing consulting is, what are these people passionate about? Yep. Because a lot of people get hired onto a team, and then they never get asked, could they do more, or would they contribute
in a different way if they were allowed to? And whenever you start asking those questions, you open the door to people doing more because they are empowered to do so. Unless you have that question unless you have that question built in early, these people will only do what you hired them to do. And if they don't like doing it anymore, they're gonna start sucking at it. So I'm with you. It's on the leader to figure out what their team is actually
good at. And if you aren't a leader who asked that question, if you don't leave your mark with a question mark, which is what are you passionate about, you're not gonna ever know the full dynamic impact of your team. Every team I've ever built just want to insert here. Every team I've ever built, every person I've ever hired, and you could I mean, even down to a volunteer intern. Yeah. I would ask them. What do you want to contribute to this organization? Not what your goals are because that's a
different question. That's a different question. What do you want to contribute to this organization? What do you want to contribute to the team? And then I would ask them the follow-up question. How can I best help you make that happen? And so many people who used to work with me on teams that I built and now have gone off to do other things with other teams, they've come back to me and they've said You're not asked that question. Yeah. Yeah,
exactly. They said, you know, no one asked that question. You, I, I, I, I would tell them sometimes even in the interview process, but a lot when I was working with them, I'm on purpose spoiling you for other roles. I'm doing it on purpose. I guess I'm making you better, obviously. Yeah. Even just a little tiny bit, even if it's just 1% better. But I want you to remember this experience when you go out and you have other experiences with other folks. Because guess what?
I know enough to know it's not gonna be like that everywhere else. It's so true. That's so good. But you as a leader, it's on you to make them leaders. Right. And you're doing that with that question because if you're not asking that question, they're not gonna think about it in the shower or while they're driving down the street or doing their exercises. No. But but when you plant that seed, they start thinking about it, and then they start figuring out who they really are, and that
is powerful. So that is the one that I would say cover and move. Figure out how people can cover so that you can move. That's the business application, to what they're saying. Keep it simple, stupid. The kiss theory is is talked about, and and that's the next part. Right? And I like what your mom said. You're the number one spot. There's only one place for one one thing there. Yeah. I heard it said another way recently on another show. It says, keep first things first and everything else never.
Because whenever you focus on one thing and that's gone, the next first thing comes up. So I'm gonna relate a story here very briefly. Recently in my family, there's been some health issues with a relative of mine. I'm gonna hash some information here. That way, identifying information isn't isn't out there in the public. There's been a health issue with a family member of my immediate family member, and it's been causing stress to
my wife. Right? And This is a anybody who's ever had anything happen with their health and a family member knows that that's one of the most trying, stressful, sharp, you know, kind of things that can happen to you. Yeah. Everyone's got a lot of problems until they have health problems and they got one.
Yeah. Exactly. Then they got one. But even in that, even in how my wife approached me on this to how to solve this problem, she was extremely stressed, crying, distraught, had was gathering a bunch of information to try to fix the problem herself, which is, you know, she's taking ownership. And the first thing I did was listen. And that's a key aspect. I think that that when Jocko talks about, this this this
idea of prioritizing and executing Yeah. When Jocko and Leaf talk about this, I think the first role of the leader is to listen, not to solve the problem, to listen for what the number one problem should be that needs to be solved. What is the first thing that goes in that slot? Because that's the hardest thing to determine. The hardest thing to determine isn't the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Like, the ordering is easy after you determine what's number 1, and then all the other dominoes begin to fall. Yeah.
Yeah. Or am I incorrect in that? No. That's absolutely true. Brian Tracy is the the one person that talks about goals. Now I have a different aspect on what goals are. Right? Mhmm. I don't call I don't believe in goals. I don't believe in New Year's resolutions. I believe in targets. So I'll I'll take you, through Brian Tracy's mindset. What he would have everyone do is get out a piece of paper, and I do this too. And write down everything you want, even if it's
ice cream. Put it all on paper. And then look at your list and see what would change your life if it could be magically given to you right now. Whatever that is, whatever would change your life the most if it could be given to you. Like, you know, you you have a genie and he's gonna give you one wish. Boom. Which one is it? That's your number one, and that's how he does goals. Mhmm. And the way I do it is similar. I said put it all down. Now it's real.
Now your subconscious starts to work on it because you've made it something that belongs in the world. And now internally, you're going to see your wheels spinning because of that Harvard study, right, in the eighties where they're like, how many people have goals? How many people wrote them down? Well, the people who had goals were making 10 times more, and the people who had them written down were making, you know, 50 to a 100 times more because they wrote them
down became real. So I take that and I make that to target. And whatever your target is, whatever your one target is, you can only shoot at 1 target at a time. Mhmm. Whatever your target is, whenever you hit the target, you can do this. Do I need to hit it again or to make it more refined, or should I move on to the next target? And so Brian Tracy talks about that. Write it all down, and then whatever can be magically given to you, that's your number one target.
Yeah, I believe that, but whenever you write it down, you had that feeling like I need to knock that out. Just writing it down, getting it on paper is one thing, but then you push that into a target, and then all these other things become secondary, third targets. Not high value, these are low value targets. Your high value target is the one that will change your life. And if if you have health problems, it's it's it's always health. Everyone has a lot of problems until they have
health problems, and then it goes right to first. Because without health, you're not living life to your fullest and you know it. And it's such a it's a hard thing to get through. And people who do, like I had a battle with skin cancer. And whenever I got through skin cancer, I started becoming more productive. I was way more I wrote my books, I got got on stages, you know what I mean? But I don't tell people, this is probably the first time I've ever told anybody that I had skin
cancer. It's just something I had something that I was working on. People like, you okay? I'm like, I'm fine. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, and and, you know, it's Jocko kind of touches on this in when he when he's talking about this idea of prioritizing and executing, he kind of touches around the edges of it, but he doesn't go directly to it because I think he assumes the reader will just get it. Yeah. And, and,
and maybe he's fleshed it out a little bit in subsequent podcast episodes. I'm sure he has because you can see it everywhere. But in prioritization and execution, the thing that flummoxes or stops people from prioritizing and executing is confusion about what the target is, which is to your point about Brian Tracy, Right? It's also confusion about and Jordan Peterson talks a little bit about this too. It's confusion about the hierarchy of values. What's at the bottom of the hierarchy
and what's at the top? And many, many people this is why one of the things we talked about in this podcast last year when we covered the Gulag Archipelago by Alexander Solzhenitsyn and Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky. 2 heavy books. Right.
But what you find in both of those books is the solution at the beginnings of the solution to the crisis of meaning we currently have in the West and the crisis of meaning we currently have is is because I think is fundamentally due to people's misordered hierarchies. Mhmm. So we have a hierarchy, and we don't ever want to publicly admit this, but we privately I totally see that. Yeah. We privately walk it out or not private. Sorry. We publicly
walk out what we don't privately admit to ourselves. Right? And what we don't admit is we've got a lot of stuff that's number 1 in the hierarchy for us personally, but we're either too ashamed or we don't understand or we're not that we're not that self aware to your point earlier, about what's in that number one slot. And we don't we don't turn and face it. To your point, we're not decisively engaged with what that number one thing is. Nope. We don't
have our North Star. And because we don't have that, everything else is then misordered. And then we wonder why our families are off the rails or our communities are off the rails or our country is off the rails. Well, it's because things are fundamentally misordered. Now Yeah. If you don't know what's in the number one slot, then prioritization and execution can't happen because you're constantly in a space of chaos. Yeah. And and you can organize chaos, but it takes time to figure that
out. And that's why he talks about the fog of war. Right? Correct. That's right. The the fog of war. Now my master's degree is in war theory and national defense strategy. So whenever it comes to war and and that conflict that you just described, that that exists in that environment. Like, you're supposed to be able to thrive in chaos. But realistically, it's prioritizing in chaos. And then you execute whatever that priority is. That's the only thing you can do. So you're right.
When people are all confused, and they start to set these, all these crazy things, they get overwhelmed and stressed out and they become bigger people because they're stress eating or they stop working out or, you know, name it, don't sleep. I mean, they they become bigger people, but not in the way they wanna be. Right. Because because of chaos. Because of chaos. And it's understandable. It's It's understandable. But, yeah, back to this, you're right. It's a core core process,
like, prioritize and execute. Huge deal. Huge deal. The way I talk about it in my book, rule of 3, is people cannot do more than 3 things. If you give somebody more than 3 things, that's too much. If you're trying to sell somebody something and you say I can do 4 things for you, well that's great, that's a good deal because it's more than 3. And rule 3 is something that we're brought up
into. No matter where you are in the world, you got read, bedtime story, you got told a bedtime story, and the most popular one is the Goldilocks theory, right? 3 times decisions, 3 3 decisions to make, and then 3 bears showed up. There's there's 3. You know? And then, you know, I played baseball. Three strikes, you're out. There's 3 teams on football. You know, it just grows and metastasizes in politicians. They say, I'm gonna lower taxes.
I'm gonna get you more jobs, and we're gonna make sure this this this area is secure. Whatever the three things are makes it completely, ingrained into your brain as a complete cycle. So as a leader, if you give somebody more than 3 things, they aren't doing any of it. And so we're gonna talk about this as we go into the book, but you're right. If you take the chaos and you make it just 3 things, that's manageable. If you make it one thing, it's gonna get done.
That's just how it works. The book, The One Thing talks about it. Yeah. And he he says, you know, we spend most of our day I'm gonna use my fake stacks of money here. Yeah. So, you know, I got my my my Hollywood money. Right? So those are all For those of you listening on the podcast or the audio version, he's got he's got a a stack of fake money here. Yeah. Money. 50.50,000 represented in 100 dollar bills. It's it's, it's Hollywood money for sure. But like this represents how much in seconds
you get every day. And most people see this 5 stacks and they go well I got lots of time, and then they get down to the end and they're like well I got much time. So everything happens in the last minute. You wait till the last minute, it only takes a minute. Except for whatever gets produced is not usually that good. So what happens whenever you start taking the stack is in the book he says you spend, 33% of your time switching between
tasks. So I'm taking 2 stacks off this, which means I got $30,000 right, worth of worth of money that I'm gonna spend, worth the seconds that I'm gonna spend. Well let's make this bigger. Let's talk about it in a month, and let's pair it down to 25%. That means if it's a 4 week month, one of those weeks is switching between tasks. Wait wait wait, let me go a little bit bigger. That means in every year, 4 months of your year is switching between
tasks. Now let me let me make this a little bit bigger. 4 years. It's we go 25. That's 2 and a half years, but really 2 and a half to 4 years because of technology, because technology helps you switch between tasks. Yeah, right. It gets you engaged in something else. Yeah. So so now you're spending 6 years of things that you can actually do instead of 10. And how you do the prioritize and execute is you focus on the one thing, that one target is what I like to say. You pick that one target, you
hit that, you move on to the next. And people ask you the question they always ask us, how are you doing so much? How do you get all this done in one day? It's easy. It's just not, it's not simple for you to execute. It takes a lot of habit changing for you to be like me. And a lot of people don't like that, because they wanna live in the chaos, and they call that comfort. And that comfort chaos will creep up and kill you. And by the end of your life, you're going to
be asking, well, what happened? Well, I thought I had more time. And the reality is you just didn't prioritize correctly. Because you lead your life. No one else does that for you. So it's on you again to figure out what that looks like, Or you could spend all the all the stacks that you have in your life, switching between tasks and not doing anything. That's the chaos that we talk about. That's the fog of war. That's the decision cycle. That is the problem.
That's it in the crux. I'm a 100% with you. That is the core of the what he calls, was it the the laws of combat, cover and move simple, Keep it simple. Prioritize and execute. Decentralized command. That's all. That's all on you. Decentralized command, it's the easiest thing to do whenever you find somebody who's an expert at whatever it is you're trying to do, and you say how much time and money do you need? Mysteriously it doesn't cost as much as if you tried to do it all yourself.
And that's just a life hack right there that I have tried to tell people all the time. You can get a lot more done if you find the right person to do it. And, usually, it's not you. No. That's a that's no. Those are excellent points. I wanna bring in, and I have to do this at least once per podcast. It's ironic that I'm doing it with Jocko because Jocko's book, Jocko and Leaf's book because as I was singing to you before offline,
he and I weirdly share other than the military piece, which we don't. We share a lot of weird parallels, but he plays guitar. I play guitar. Play guitar. Yeah. You know, he owns a leadership consultancy. I don't lead a leadership because, obviously, he's written books. I've written books. It's weird. And now this is the other parallel. I started doing now, obviously, he's been doing jujitsu way the heck longer than I have, but I started doing jujitsu a couple of years Yeah. Ago.
And, you know, starting jujitsu in your forties is different than starting your jujitsu when you're a hard charging 20 year old special forces guy. Radically different. Right? And I came through combat Taekwondo. I've hit people in the face. I've gotten hit in the face, and I I know how the deal goes. Right? And I always resisted jujitsu because, number 1, I my principle was I'm never going to give you the opportunity to throw me to the ground. That's number 1. And then number 2,
I'm going to run away from you. So after that, what do you have? Like, if I just run away from you, I'd I'm fairly sure I could outrun you a long enough time. Fairly sure I can. I'm pretty fast. My knees used to held up you have held up pretty well. I don't know, man. I'm a truck fu kinda guy. You know? If I can run you over, actually You just I'm a do that. Well, you won't fight? I'll be right back. That's right. We say now.
And so but but then what And so but but then what happened and the weird thing in my life is what happened is I started playing rugby, and I played rugby for many, many years. K. And rugby got me into the idea of or got me comfortable with the idea of being under a dog pile and getting tackled and all this. Because I didn't do any of that kind of stuff when I was in when I was in high school. I just I it wasn't that wasn't where my interests were. Okay. Fast
forward a few years, I'm looking around for something to do. I'm a little bit bored. I'm like, okay. Fine. Jackal's been banging on me for 10 years about this jujitsu thing. Fine. I'll go do jujitsu. I remember the first time I rolled with my with my instructor who's a former battalion commander from Afghanistan, and I've actually had him on the podcast as well. And, he, I I sat down, and and I I'm I'm I'm never a person who thinks I'm a I'm a pardon my usage. I
I don't think I'm a badass. Like, I I think I'm a person who's if you Capable. With me, there's going to be something that's gonna happen that you won't like. Yeah. But I'm not going out and seeking it because why would I? I don't know. I have other things I need to do in my life. Plus, I'm an adult, and lawsuits suck, and going to jail sucks. I don't have time for any of that. I got I have different priorities. I prioritize There it is. Exactly. I prioritize different things.
And I'm not 20 anymore, so I'm not going out drinking in nonsense anyway. Point is I sat down that very first time after the first, like, 5 minute, like, oh, we're gonna go. And number 1, I realized how much I don't know about fighting on the ground. That was number 1. Then number 2, the second thought right behind that was, well, I guess I'm gonna this is gonna be another one of those that takes 10 years to be an overnight success kind of thing. At least 5.
Well, in my case, in the 4 in your forties, it's 10. It goes up for every decade. It doubles every decade. You know? I I keep telling people now I'm on the I'm on the 15 year plan. I might be a black belt at 15 years. I'm not gonna worry about it. Let's see if the body holds up first. But the point that he makes about things being simple but not easy Yeah. I see that all of the time in Jersey. You know, and I'm a, I'm a measly,
I am, I'm a measly white belt. I'm not even a frigging blue belt anymore. I probably shouldn't be talking about this. I'm a measly white belt. Right? But even a measly white belt like myself who comes from a background of training and development in teaching and academics, understands how hard it is to make complicated concepts simple, understands that, number 1, it's great to have a plan. And number 2, it's great to have a simple plan, but it's not easy to execute that simple plan.
True. And jujitsu is a good example of, yeah, you're gonna have a simple plan, but that other person's gonna get a vote. Yeah. And there goes your simple plan. Yeah. The enemy gets a vote. That's what we always say. He puts it in his book, I think, too. But, yeah, the enemy gets a vote. You're always gonna have that hard side, and that's what makes it interesting. Yeah. That's where I'm at with that. But yeah. You got a lot
of parallels with Jocko. A weird weirdly, a weird number, and I haven't only I've thought about that only recently. And it's one of those things that I sort of think about, and then I shut that door real quick. And then, like, I I gotta close that door. I can't get you focused on that. You opened it. So let me ask you this. Do you think see, all those things that you that you described are things that I do as well. Mhmm. I I know I've I've done
mixed martial arts. I've done, I was combatives instructor in, a marine, line combatives, which is all jujitsu. Yep. I I play guitar quite frequently. I have a guitar problem, I think. I don't know. It's not hoarding if you're just, like, collecting guitars. Right? That's not hoarding. Right? No. That's not hoarding. No. Okay. Yeah. Thank you for yeah. You're welcome. But, like, leadership consulting, yeah, I do that a lot. And, I've written books and, like, the
podcasting world is something that's extremely interesting to me. I don't have a podcast yet. I always like to say that. But, yeah, there's a lot of parallels. Let me ask you this. Do you think it's because we're just built different? So I believe in uniqueness for, like, the country of the United States of America. I believe that we have a unique proposition because of our our particular founding documents and our creed and the path that we've gone through. Now, what has happened in the last
40 years, that's a different story. But I I do believe in the uniqueness of the United States as a national state polpoly, right, in the history of the world. I think they will be writing if we collapse, they will be writing books about us and papers for centuries. Forget the Roman Empire. Just for centuries. Right? Yep. How did this actually work? Yeah. But do I believe in the uniqueness of human beings? I believe that we are all made unique in the image of God for sure
because I'm a I'm a I'm a strong Christian in that in that space. By the way, you talked about the rule of 3. Interestingly enough, just a side note on that, you've got the trinity, the father, the son, and the holy spirit. My whole book is biblical. I just don't tell people, because people immediately shut it down. Like, the rule 3, like, your top three people. Jesus had top he he had 9 followers and then top 3 people. He had Top 3. Top 3. So, like, the rule 3
and people who influence you, all of that stuff comes out of the bible. I got so many parallels to what works in leadership and what what works with Christianity. Mhmm. But I I just don't talk about it because people immediately dismiss it. They're like, well, why is this, you know, it's a biblical book. It it is, but it's just stuff that works. Well, it's about this the the Bible itself is about the structure of reality. Yes. That's what it's
about. Now you can you can object to that structure. You can have friction. Iron can sharpen iron against that structure. Yeah. You can even, as we have attempted to do for the last 150 years in the west, you could attempt to dislodge that that foundation stone from the Mhmm. From the underpinnings of western culture and see if it'll still stand up. You can
try all of that. All of that. But the book I said this in the context of a different a different book we were talking about in a previous episode, but the book defies the algorithm. It does. The book the book goes against that. So I believe to to to kinda answer your question about the uniqueness piece, do I think that we're unique? I think that we are unique as individuals in the sight of an almighty god. Absolutely. For sure.
100 percent. And of course, we should work on our salvation with fear and trembling as a man named Paul once said. But I also believe that in the world in which we live with the types of opportunities that have been offered up to us, the parallels between people, are more than accidental. I I believe they're fundamentally on purpose because I believe that too. The universe the universe. I believe that god operates both, both, what do you call it, with free will
and on purpose. So the both those things work together. And don't come at me about predeterminers. All the Calvinists can hold your hold your hold your chest, Calvinist. It's okay. All of you out there who are listening to me, I'm it's okay. Just hold on. But I do believe in free will, and I do believe in predestination, and I do believe all these things are operating together, but I also believe it's a great mystery, again, to go go back to Paul. And we can't really pull it apart
because it's like gossamer. So, I believe that people do share certain paths, but where people diverge and what the what the ping pong balls are Yeah. Or the or the billiard balls, actually, how we click off of each other, I believe that that's out of obviously, that's out of our control. But I think it's a I think it's a great thing to think about. Yeah. Okay. We'll get back into the book. I'm I'm sure we're getting ready to go back in the book.
But before let me pull this thread one more. Yeah. Go ahead. One more. So between what what you're seeing is these people who are making changes in the world have the same influential, background. You're working on yourself and your physical strength by doing jujitsu. You're working on your ability to express yourself by playing the guitar. There's a creative side that happens there. You're putting something out into the world
that's gonna help people for free, it's a podcast. And then you're helping people because you can't give away things that you don't have. You have to have something that gives you money. Mhmm. You're getting money so that you can give it away. And, like, all of the things that you just described are the same things that Jocko has in his life, because you guys are basically doing the same good mission that I think we're all called to do,
and like you become these people. Like you're in your forties, I'm in my forties, but like when you when you become these people you start looking at who you want to associate with, who you wanna be like, who you wanna be. And whenever you start focusing on you, well, then the world changes, doesn't it? Because you realize it's not about you. It's about everyone else. It's it's it it ties into what she said, you know, in
the beginning of our conversation today. You know, the the the the the self awareness that's required to prioritize and execute effectively Yeah. Which is, of course, the same self awareness that's required to check the ego, engage in extreme ownership, understand that it's not the team's fault. It's your fault. That's right. I mean and and by the way, to be able to to be able to invite you know, do I always accept feedback? Well, no. There there are people in my family who will tell you,
Hasan is horrible accepting feedback. Honestly, it depends upon which mood you're approaching me and what the kind of feedback is. There's a couple of different things, you know, going on underneath there. But what I tell my clients is feedback is the gift that's given to you in order to get you to grow more in self awareness. And most of us don't treat even myself, I'm guilty of this sometimes, don't
treat feedback as a gift. We treat it as a threat. Yep. And fundamentally, our biology is wired that way, and we are responsible, I think, at an individual level. You talked about, are we unique? I think at an individual level, we are responsible for overcoming our own biology. Mhmm. And by overcoming, I don't mean altering our biology, you know, through surgical means or medical means. That's not what I'm talking about. Yeah. I mean, overcoming our base desires, our base
appetites rising above. Again, because those things are going to exist. Maslow's hierarchy of needs exist because Maslow understood that there was a hierarchy of needs. Correct. But that hierarchy of needs is just at the bottom level of where the rest of the things in the hierarchy should be. It's true. It's yes. It's
absolutely true. The discovery of something that you know exists and then furthering your decision to get into it, it opens up so many parallels that that then expand someone else's ability to to make an impact. So. Wow. That's deep. I'm sorry. I'll leave it alone. Let's go back to No. No. No. You're good. No. You're good. Well and and, you know, and, you know, and the other thing is and
I'm writing a whole chapter about this in my 4th book. It's hopefully going to be upcoming here in about a year. Because I think what we've done with the internet, Let me bounce this idea off. And you could think about this while talking about about Jocko and about, and about, part 3, which is how do we sustain victory? What we've done with the Internet is we've caused a revolution to begin. So So the commercial Internet got turned on by Timothy Berners Lee
in 1989. And once the commercial Internet got turned on, it started with email and AOL, and a little server called a little server, sorry, a little browser called Netscape that was built by, by a couple of by a couple of kids in by a couple of kids in, in Illinois who eventually became, you know, Mark Andreessen and a couple of other folks out there in Silicon Valley who are now worth 1,000,000,000 of dollars and are techno optimists. Okay.
It's been a long strange trip. I was there at the beginning of it. It's been really interesting. You were there at the beginning of it. A lot of us were there at the beginning of it. But a lot more of us, we now have 2 or 3 generations now, getting ready to be 4 generations that have just been born into it with it just being there. Yep. The revolution that we started, we will not fully be able to take take, I believe measure of for probably another
500 years. Because what happened with the turning on of the of the Internet was as revolutionary an act of human engagement as was the printing press. Mhmm. And when the printing press finally got promulgated, wars happened, revolutions happened, but also reformations and renaissance has happened. All of Luther's reformation, all the protestant revolution and the protestant reformation, none of that would have happened without the printing press, without mass distribution.
Okay. The same thing is happening right now with the internet and the internet is an engagement machine. And so now you and I who share similar life paths, but before the internet may never have sent a letter to each other. Now we can connect here, like, and not even leave our house, not even leave our house. I I can even reach out to I was joking with one of my former employees because he was a big Joe Rogan, and he's a big Joe Rogan fan. He's like, oh, you
can't get Joe Rogan. I literally dead I dead eyed him, and I go, he's a young kid. He was only like maybe 19 or 20 at the time. I said, anybody can be gotten with the internet anywhere. I can go get Joe Rogan. It's just a matter of time. It's gonna be, you have to wear them down. Right. Or what is that? Or I just have to do enough good work. We all have to do enough good work to create
those engagements and create those connections through our content. Yeah. And now the Internet is this big sampling and connection and narrowcasting machine that's creating revolutions that, to quote from Malcolm x, take land. They take property. That's what a revolution does, and he was exactly right. Yeah. He was exactly right. And, no, with Joe Rogan, you're absolutely right. The thing, I sent to his his, his booking agent last was, I'll earn it.
He's like Yeah. He's like, Joe hasn't said anything yet. I said, that's cool. I'll learn it. But every day, I'm providing more and more value of what I could bring to his show. Right. So I'm showing him all the things that I could bring to his show because you're right. Absolutely. You can. You anyone can talk to anyone now, and that is not something that existed when we were growing up in the eighties nineties. That is not something that was something is far farfetched. It's
a massive, massive upending. And we don't really appreciate how much No. We don't. Things have been upended, but but we are going to. We are, we're going to, well, yeah, it goes right into where we're going in the book. It does back to the book. Speaking of which, back to the book, back to extreme ownership, how US Navy seals lead and win,
by Jocko Willock at Leaf Babin. As Ari has been pointed out, the version that I have and the version that one of the versions that Atlas has, has the New York Times number one bestseller, a ribbon across the front with a new forward and q and a section. By the way, the q and a section comes directly from questions asked to Jocko or or or or emailed into his show, are you built into him from listeners of his show? Sorry. That's how I want
to frame that. By the way, I've also read, a number of other of Jocko's books, including leadership strategy and tactics, the dichotomy of leadership, the leadership field manual, the big thick one, and a couple of other ones that he's put out there. So as you could tell, I'm I'm a huge, I'm a huge proponent of what Jocko's, putting out here today, and Leaf as well. Alright. Part 3, sustaining victory. So it begins with chapter 9. I'm talking about a hostage rescue occurring in Ramadi.
Right? The the rescue of a young Iraqi teenager, who had been kidnapped by an Al Qaeda linked terrorist group who demanded that his family pay $50,000 in ransom for his release. By the way, a task unit bruiser, the task unit that, that Jocko and Leaf led, which also included, Mark Lee and Chris Kyle, key of American sniper fame. Yep. Were the
ones who were engaging quite a bit in Ramadi. And all of these experiences that he talks about, the Leaf and Jocko talk about in book, come out of those experiences, including this hostage rescue, which apparently, we did on the regular. Now the point of this first piece around planning, and I love, by the way, just as a side note, I love in the chapter planning where he talks about how Mark Lee, quoted quoted the line from Michael BN in the 19 90 movie. We don't exist. We and I
quote from Michael BN, we're a SEAL team. We're here to get you out. There's no reason to thank us because we don't exist. You never saw us. This never happened. What are you dead eyes, the kid? I can't tell you, like, these guys okay. So combat brings out a a point of humor that no one really understands unless they're there. Like, comedians do a great job of pointing out what everyone thinks but doesn't say.
Right. And war does the same thing. So you find yourself laughing at the the points where you probably shouldn't be laughing, and and I can just see this happening. I I mean, I wasn't there, obviously, but Right. Like, I can just see this happening, and I could totally tell you what happened. I I mean, I could see it. I mean,
this is what on the regular, these guys are hilarious like that. So Well and I think you have to be because humor is that thing that just releases all the pressure and the tension of the stress because you can't be you can't be down in the mouth all of the time. I mean Yeah. You just have bullets flying past your head. Come on. It's fine. It's a start of the day in paradise. It's fine. Well and it never stops either, man. Because I was on a podcast with the Green Beret and a seal, called
harder, not smarter. They just started a podcast recently. And these guys are still the same funny, and and they're they're still jabbing me. And there's it's their humor is on point, and it's for everyone. So Yeah. Reading that in there too, I mean, I chuckled, but I was like, yeah, that that's exactly what was said. Well, the point of the chapter on planning is for any team and for any team, whether it's in business, whether it's in the military, whether it's in industry, whether it's even in
your home. Right? A plan is a standardized planning process is essential. And and quite frankly, I agree. The point that's made here is that to the point about goals, right, that Atlas was making earlier, goals are fine for writing those down, but then you have to go in the weeds and you have to figure out what the actual plan is. This is where many entrepreneurs and small business owners fail on the planning piece. They don't fail to do the day to day. They fail to document
and standardize the plan. And so this chapter was very much about the documentation and the standardization of planning in addition to a unique process of debriefing, which I was talking about years before I read this book, because I found out that the special forces did
it, and I thought that's brilliant. This idea of debriefing after an intense engagement and figuring out the answers to, one of 3 actually figured out the answers to all three questions, what went right, what went wrong, and how can we make this better for the future, whether we are succeeding or failing When you fail to plan, well, guess what? You're going to get failure.
Leading up and down the chain of command is chapter 10, the chapter written by Leif Babin, which makes an important point that many people forget, particularly junior leaders. Junior leaders have a responsibility to lead up the chain, but junior leaders also have a responsibility to lead down the chain. And I would talk about this a lot with managers and supervisors that I train through my consultancy Leadership Toolbox. And, of course, I've
written about this in, again, my book, 12 Rules for Leaders. Leading up and down the chain of command means, yes, understanding, as Leif puts it, commander's intent. But it's also paramount that senior leaders and junior leaders understand the big picture and understand where they sit in the big picture in order to effectively lead up and down the chain of command. I'm currently going through we're not going
through. I mean, I'm engaged in a project, with another individual, and he is senior to me in that project. Right. And he has a lot of experience. He has a lot of knowledge. I can't take that away from him. And I realize in reading this chapter, and this is just a thing that happened right now, right? When I was recently rereading this book for the podcast, I need to be leading
him better because I'm junior to him. Right? But I also need to understand what the overall mission is for the project that we are engaged in. Chapter 11 is about decisiveness and amid uncertainty. How do you take the shot? Now in my time, I've known a few marine snipers. Matter of fact, I've known a couple of guys who were, literally graduated high school and then right went right to Afghanistan in October of 2,001.
I've known snipers in my time. Matter of fact, I I can name offhand 3 people for sure who I know of I'm absolutely sure have killed people, for sure. And there is nothing more stressful than being a sniper. I cannot imagine a more stressful or stress inducing role in the military because if you're wrong, it's a real problem either
way. And that's the end of the sentence. And so this chapter begins with, relating leaf bab and relating a story about Chris Kyle, looking down, a scope and seeing an individual with a scope weapon in another building and asking, do I take the shot or not? What is happening here? How do you have decisiveness amid uncertainty when outcomes are unclear, when directions are unclear, and even when the process is unclear, and when success is not clearly defined? What does it mean to not be
paralyzed by fear and how do you act? And Atlas already brought this up. How do you act decisively? One of the other points that Leaf makes in this chapter is about this idea, and Jocko talks about a little bit on his podcast as well, this idea of being default aggressive, which many people in the
civilian world don't understand what that means. But I frame it this way for managers and leaders being default aggressive means always moving forward and taking territory, to paraphrase from George c Scott as Patton back in that great 19 seventies movie Patton. We don't retreat. We let the hun do that. We're gonna grab him by the nose, and we're gonna kick him in the ass. And that's what managers have to do. That's what leaders have to
do in many organizations and cultures. And very often in your family, that's what you have to do. But there is a measure to this, and that then goes into the last chapter, chapter 12, the discipline transformation, discipline equals freedom, and the dichotomy of leadership. Do we wanna be default aggressive all of the time? Do we want to, be taking ownership everywhere all of the time? Do we want to be telling other people to cover and move and making everything simple all of the time?
Or are there no absolutes? Is there some times when maybe it's okay to just step back a little bit and breathe? Is it okay when sometimes when there's chaos and mayhem, particularly maybe around a health problem or a wealth problem, to actually listen to the problem before we make a solution? How do leaders propose a solution? How do leaders navigate those dichotomies?
That's the point of the dichotomy of leadership. And of course, he expands on this in his book, the dichotomy of leadership, which I would also recommend that you pick up. Reading through these last chapters 9 through 12 in sustaining victory, I was I recalled my experiences at the University of Minnesota. Normally, I don't talk about the University of Minnesota on this podcast, and I don't talk about the people who led me there, not Not because those experiences were bad, but because I don't
wanna put the University of Minnesota on blast. And so, but it's enough time has passed since I was since I've been there. It's been almost 15 years, so I think perhaps I can talk about this now. I failed to lead up when I was at the University of Minnesota in an administrative position. I was a young leader with a young team, Didn't really know what I was doing. But also the senior leadership who was above me, kind of left me there to fend for
myself. Matter of fact, I'm thinking of a particular person who I will not name, who when I asked, what's my plan here? What's my future? The person responded to me by saying, well, you just have to figure that out yourself. I can't tell that for I can't tell you that. I can't provide you with that sort of direction. And then he sort of laughed and kept eating his salad at lunch.
That's poor leadership. That guy was a poor leader or another supervisor that I had who every time I spoke to him, I felt like I was being politic. And I inherently, because it happened to be as a young leader, I inherently am sensitive to that now. And I could spot a fake, like a dime on the highway at 80 miles an hour.
I also thought when I was reading this book, reading this chapter on sustaining victory of my experiences playing rugby, which I've already mentioned on this podcast and, the rugby team that I was on were a lot of good guys, and they had a lot of good, a lot of good hearts. But the coach lacked decisiveness, And a lack of decisiveness leads to not winning. Lack of decisiveness leads to collapse on the
rugby scrum. It leads to collapse in the rugby field. It leads to me standing out there in 20 degree cold in the middle of February or the middle of October or the middle of November, staring into the pack as I'm watching big burly men, not able to cover the ball and yelling at each other about who failed what. Not exactly engaged in cover and move, not prioritizing and executing, not having decisiveness amid uncertainty and not having ownership in leadership starting
from the top. No plan always equals no future. My, my old supervisor at the university of Minnesota was exactly correct about that. So Atlas is a lot there, but we're rounding the corner. We're going to talk about solutions to problems. Yeah. How can leaders navigate the dichotomies of leadership on their teams? You know, how do we deal with all this? How do we put all this in a box together for folks today? Yeah. We can we can sum this up really easily, but it's not gonna be simple.
Yeah. So realize that there are lots of dichotomies in leadership. Everyone thinks that they know. But management and leadership are 2 separate things, and you have to let managers manage. And whenever you're asking a manager like you did at the university, what's my plan, you can't expect them to be a leader because they only know how to manage. You nailed it. Not a good leader. Great manager probably. Not a good leader. And the difference between management and leadership is
this. The management sections were in a little ago when oh, let's just we could pay people way more money to do something simple. And if they repeat that task over and over again, we could take somebody who's making 30¢ and give them $3 and create what we now know as management. If they manage something that's continuously done over and over again, it's easy for them to manage, and they can make sure that it works. And if you put a lot of
managers on a line, you need a leader. A leader to say, we need to do this many things in this many days, or there needs to be a metric or a future that's described. That all comes together in a plan. So whenever you're looking at the dichotomies, you have to realize there are managers who think they are leaders. And telling them that they're managers is probably gonna be a stroke to their ego.
And that's okay sometimes, but a lot of times it's not. Giving them a specific task to manage, and then say you're in charge of leading that effort, is how it's done today. And so people get confused on management leadership quite often, and they expect managers to be leaders, and that shouldn't be in your plan. That should be something that you go back to where where you started this. Know your people. Know what they're capable of. Know what they're
going to produce and all that's there. And where does that get found out? You nailed it with the debriefs. So there's a rugby team. It's the most winningest team of any sports ever. It's called the All Blacks. And the All Blacks do something that a lot of teams don't do every time they get done with their their their play on the ground. They all get into the locker room and they say, you sucked at this. You were great at that. Blah blah blah, but they're brutally freaking
honest. Honesty is something you can't buy, but you can build it. And when you build honesty into a team, you'll figure out who is there for what. And if they're looking for self preservation, you'll be able to correct that early whenever they start blaming everyone else for something that happened. The people who are true leaders are the ones that take accountability, which is Extreme Ownership in the book we're talking about. When you find that built in quality, those are what we call born
leaders. But even born leaders have to learn how to grow. So born leaders and people who are learning how to be leaders symbiotically come together whenever you have a hot wash or a debrief. We call them both in the military. And that is what just happened, let's see if we can do it better next time. And guess what, if you think about it, if you talk about it, if you start figuring out who people are, well then you become a winning
team like the All Blacks. There's nobody who's won more than them, and it's because of their their ability to lead up and down the chain of command. They talk to their coaches the same way that they talk because it's an open forum. The other thing that I love about that team is they all respect each other. You know they have this environment where they can say whatever they wanna say, and realize it's not personal, it's business. But wait a minute, Atlas. You don't understand.
I get this a lot. This this pushback. I'm gonna push back on you. Yeah. Go. Wait a minute. You don't understand. I'm a mid level manager in a massive bureaucracy, and these people were just given to me. Yes. I don't get to sit in on the meetings where they're hired. I don't get to give my input. No one asks me. They rip away my team or they rip away half or a percentage or a quarter or whatever, and they give me these people that are
underdeveloped, underfunded. Then they tell me they want me to do these missions. You don't understand. You were in the military. You could get whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted it, however you wanted it. And I gotta work out here where people that can't stay that don't say yes or no, sir, and they come in here with their purple hair, and they come in here with their requirements,
and they wanna leave it at 4:30 in the afternoon on a Monday. And I had to bust my behind to get here, and I've been in this role for 25 years, and I know what you don't get it. Yeah. Don't you love hearing that? Oh, I love it. You you you tell I've heard that you tell I've heard that quite a bit. Yeah. I I absolutely love that problem because I know what the problem is. Yeah. It's it's them.
It's them. It's always them. Everybody who gives me that has not figured it out That they can ask for the things that they need. They can document the true successes. That the people that are underdeveloped can get trained. The the time that they don't have can be made. That all of the things that they describe are things that they just haven't done yet, and they aren't empowered to do it. Or wait a minute, they don't feel like they're empowered. They don't feel like they're
empowered to do it. So the the biggest answer to that whenever I hear it is, I empower you. I empower you to fix it. I empower you to do it, or I empower you to leave. And then guess what? Someone else is gonna come in here and they're gonna be like, I have all these problems that I can fix, not complain about. Because in the military, we hear that often too. The army likes to say you have to go to war with the troops you were given, not the troops that you want.
Don Rosfeld. Don Rosfeld infamously said that. It's amazing if somebody at that level is saying you know what I'm saying? So, like, I hear that all the time. I do. And it's also because they have not figured out who's on their team. These underdeveloped people probably just don't want to do the job that you hired them to do, And you didn't ask them the questions like you should have when they came in. What are they passionate about? What do
they want to contribute? How can I help you contribute what you want to do? Because now they've accepted the ownership of something that they've told you and you are now their coach to help them get something better in life or the company or whatever the mission set is. But yes, I love hearing that because then I absolutely know what to look for. And then, I don't know, well, you probably do this too, but whenever I go into a company and then
I I come back 6 months later, I usually come back 6 months later. Yeah. The people who say that don't work there. Normally, they're not Yeah. Usually, they're gone. Yeah. Usually, they're not. They're they're like, well, if I can't get what I want, then I'm leaving. And then we're like, bye. Bye. Yeah. Because somebody else will probably hire you and you can complain about the same things wherever you go because you're gonna find the same problems if
you're looking for it. Shockingly enough, your problems will follow you wherever you go because, well, everywhere you look, there you are. Yes. There you are in the mirror. Which which then goes back to uncertainty. You know, they're uncertain on how to fix things, and then that's a higher leadership problem. So usually what I'll end up doing is I'll say, hey, I heard this, I've all I
hear this all the time. But you know, I told them that they're empowered to do this, you need to go in and tell them that they're empowered to do this. That just those words, I empower you to do this, will change the the directive if they want their direction, if they want to change. The other thing you need to do is realize that you have a communication problem. Because whenever you have that, it's a real problem. And it's because you didn't communicate effectively.
So it's being muddled, it's being confused, or it's being misread, but you need to clarify what they're able to do and if they're leaders or managers. The lack of communication I wanna jump in here on this. Huge. Right? So in my own personal life, my wife and I, in our marriage, we try to have as clear and as open even about things we don't like as clear and open to communication between each other as we possibly can because in the hierarchy of the household, I'm the leader, she's the leader,
and then we got the kids and we got the troops. Right? And then you've got a bunch of other things happening there. And, and honestly, you know, I'm not at the top of that hierarchy. God's at the top of that hierarchy, then there's me. Then, you know, So, like, you know, that that's how that that's how that kind of that that kind of works. That's how that works. Right? Absolutely. So clear communication up and down the chain has to
occur so there's no confusion. And the the the the the place of conflicts in our marriage has been when clear communication was not there. When things either wanted to be said but were not or things were inferred from statements that were made that were not tracked to reality. And so we also see this, and I'm not unusual. The only reason I bring this up is because it's a touchpoint. Most I believe fundamentally, many people struggle with
communication. And I believe fundamentally, leaders struggle with communication, but not in terms of I'm going to word vomit on to other folks. They've got that part. Yeah. It's the expectations of what other people or how other people will communicate with them that creates decisiveness and uncertainty. Yeah. So you mentioned the all blacks. There's an expectation in that culture Yeah.
That there's going to be open communication and that there's gonna be feedback in order to facilitate communication regardless of the level of talent that you have. We see this in in sports and in the military, you see it very, very broadly because it's sharp there because the the the outcomes are black and white. Where it gets muddy is when the outcomes are hidden. Yep. Or they're not black and white or
the outcomes that are being clearly defined. So if you're in a small business, the owner of the small business, even though they may be brilliant and may be a founder and an owner, they are the ceiling on that business. They just always Always always on the business. Unless they hired somebody to manage the business, they're Right. They're not able to it's not worth anything because you can't sell their business. Right. Exactly. And so when we work in our consult
with small businesses, because I I we had to do this ourselves. First, you gotta do is write down your processes and your and your procedures and your tasks. Right? AI. You have to make a plan. Right? Yeah. Exact yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You have to make a plan. Then after you've written down your processes and your procedures and your task list and your operations and you've written down your organizational chart and you put everything together in
a nice package, now you actually have a business. That's a business because that can survive without you. That you can give to somebody else. Is it harder to do that in a family? Yeah. But not impossible. Is it really hard to do on the other end of that in a civic organization? Maybe, but you should probably be doing that once every 6 months anyway or once every year anyway. You should be checking into seeing are the processes, the procedures, the plan that we have.
Are we still leading amid uncertainty? Because chaos is the only guarantee stability you gotta work for. Yeah. Well, I like this because we're gonna parallel companies to families now. So most people's priorities are health, wealth, and relationships. Those three things. And in the book he talks about, leading up and down a chain. He starts looking at the chain of command. When you're a solopreneur, an intrepreneur, whenever you own everything and you're doing everything,
the line structure for that is one person does it all. And that's not really a business, just like you said. But when you start to hire people out and you start to do things at a a bigger level because you have to, things start to get crazy. And you have to put, like he said in the book, you can only manage up to 6 people. I only think you can manage up to 3. Because giving more than 3 people your your, your time looks like this. This is how
I used to do it while I was deployed, by the way. So I do what most people do in one day. I do 3 days worth of work in one day because I split it up into this. I go morning day, afternoon day, and evening day. And then my priorities are morning day is usually a podcast, afternoon day is usually my books and writing, right, my social media, whatever. I'm gonna post out on that. And then my 3rd day is my family. So I have three priorities right there, because wherever you spend your time
is where your heart is. Right? Ah, I mean I don't even have to say anything about that. You get what I'm saying. Mhmm. So I'm putting my priorities into my timeline like that, and then I'm looking at it each night. And then I'm sitting on my next day. And then that's the priority. Where most people get confused is, they're like, okay, I can't change my family. Right? So if you can't change your family, if you can't change your work family, then what? What happens? You hire a professional.
And this is called consulting or coaching. And what do pro athletes do? They get coached and consulted. What do pro athletes do? They find strength coaches and dietitians. What do pro athletes do? They freaking win, or they get off the team. Now here's the parallel with the family. Sometimes you can't have a winning family member all the time, but they're gonna win some of the times. And if you if you see them winning, if you recognize their wins, guess what
happens? They usually win more. And if you find people to come in and help you with them recognizing their wins, your family becomes stronger. Your work family becomes stronger the same way. The difference between your regular family and your work family is if your work family isn't working out, you could find a new family member. Alright? And then and if you're you're not a family, then you're not really going to succeed for long periods of time. And that all goes back into the book. How many
people can you really have in your life? I think it's 3. I'm against what Jocko and Leif say. I think it's 3. Any more than 3, and I'm overwhelmed because I only have 3 parts of my day, and I wanna touch it every day and say, hey. How are you doing? You know? It's just how I am. The psychological research on this is clear. I mean, Dunbar's number says anything past, I think it's 9 people. We just can't keep. Oh, no, it's not 9 people. Sorry. Anything past 150, like, different people, but we
can't keep track. Yeah. We can't keep track of those relationships. Yeah. And that's because fundamentally, I believe it's because we were created to be in community with each other, and became community with, with, with the godhead. But if you don't wanna buy into any of that, that's fine. It's fundamentally because our psychology is wired to reality in a certain way. Let's go there. And reality cannot be, it cannot be repealed. You
can negotiate with it. You can maybe try to shift it a little bit, but you can't repeal it. You can't. You can't. Reality always gets a vote. Well, I gotta tell you the story, though, because chapter 11 really hit me hard. Yeah. Referred to in a joint they're known for a lot of the really elite teams. So I was there, and I was trying to figure out how these people operated. Because I've never been around so many people with inflated egos in
my life. Because they've all been told for a long period of time they're the best at what they do. Sure. So when I walked into the the position, the person that was in the position before me was managing everything. And, they expected me to be another manager. So they're like, hey. We know that you're gonna come in here because you're a Lieutenant Colonel, and you have to do your Lieutenant Colonel job here. And I was like no, I'm here to lead, you know I'm gonna lead you. And they were
like okay, some of them. But 2 of them, 2 of them confronted me. And how the confrontation happened is when I walked into the job, there was another person that was hired to do something similar to the job that I was hired to do. To be the chief technology officer for Joint Special Operations Command. And I won't say his name, but he's a good guy,
great guy. He just didn't come from our environment. So he didn't know much about the military, especially about special operations, and he had a corporate mindset that he was trying to instill in our special operations community, which has been around for a very long time. The chain of command came from the military. Why? It's 1,000 of years old, and it works. So when he's coming in and trying to insert himself in our chain of
command, it didn't really work well. So we had some people that were splitting off and going into his school of thought, and then some people that were staying standard. And what I saw was 2 members, specifically 2 members. And in the book, he talks about, meeting with this chief executive who had this technology problem, and the 2 scientists didn't get along with each other. Now I got along well with the CTO and so did my boss, the CIO. So everyone got along just
well. It just didn't work because we were trying to do the same thing, and we weren't talking. There was no communication there. And he didn't want to talk to me because he saw his level as being above mine even though I did not talk, I did not answer to him, it did not work for him. You know I didn't have any authority chained to him at all. So he came in and we just weren't talking. And in fact we would be in meetings and he would ask me my opinion,
he would stop me, and then he would keep talking. And I was like well that's very disrespectful. So like I didn't make up a point, but I had the same problem that he talked about in the book. It's like what are the options? Well you can get rid of 1 of them, or the other one, or you can do what the book says and get rid of both of them. And so what I did was I started looking at who's on my team and who's on their team, and that's an us and them. Don't do that. That's dangerous.
But the reason why I did it was I was trying to help them work for him or whatever they wanted to do. And what I found was this really hard place. So I had 2 members. These 2 members wanted to work on his team, and I fueled that the best I could. I created a building for him. I said what do you need, I found resources, and I tried to push that envelope over there to see what would happen. I didn't go against them, but what I did was fuel them to do
something they were passionate about. And I had another one that was really trying to join us, and I was like that's just not gonna work. The military environment and the corporate environment are different, and that's okay. But I can't adopt the corporate environment in my military environment that works. We're elite for a reason. And it's not because we have somebody else telling us how to be
more corporate. It's because we are at this level already, this top level, and we know how to we know how to do what we need to do at the most effective levels. He's just trying to bring in technology, which is one of the things that I was hired to do. Mhmm. So I took one member, pushed him off into that team, and it didn't work. Didn't work at all. So he came to me, he goes, hey, I'm trying. I'm I'm really trying to, and he's not he's not listening to me. I'm like, well what else do you
wanna do? He goes, I wanna work at this other elite organization. And 2 weeks later he was there. I let him, you know, I promoted him into another job, and now he's been promoted a couple more times. The other person that wanted to join us together, I was like, that's just not gonna happen. And he's like, well, I'm gonna quit. And I said, bye. And he got a job working another executive place somewhere else, and he was happy for a while. And then that guy got mad at me. He's like, he
shouldn't have worked there. And I'm like, I just helped him do what he was supposed to do and that's what he's doing. Now he's back, he's in another executive role back in the military, and he's doing that. But what I learned from that is if you fuel people, if you find out what they're passionate about, and you let them do it, it works out well. What happened with this guy, he claimed my wins from my team who was still producing, like amazing
things. One of the things that Jocko talks about is all these people on different radio nets, and they all have their own different radio nets and they're all communicating in their own little teams. And one of the things that I did was I paired them all together, so that all these elite people could talk to each other. I mean, what? Who would've thought of that? You know? And so he claimed that, and he
claimed a lot of our other wins as his own. So that he would maintain, I don't know, some kind of he claimed our wins. Really made my team mad. Really made my team mad. But the people who were on my team, they got promoted. They all got higher ranks. They for life. Not for because I found out who they really were and what they're really passionate about and we started producing major wins for an organization that is at the tip of the spear. And
he claimed them all. So that was a real hard thing. He's no longer in there. He's doing something else. He took a lot of the elite people that were working for him on that team, and now they have a corporate environment that they all work in. They're all still friends or whatever. I don't really talk to him that much. It looks like they're doing good on social media, but doesn't everyone post their best things on social media? Everyone posts their
highlight reels. Yeah. The highlights are the highlights are great, but you know I just I didn't wanna marry that together because it didn't work. Right. And recognizing that is leadership, not management. So the whole thing of being decisive in a period of uncertainty, I was very decisive. I was very meticulous, and we produced wins. And then I let him claim the wins because he went out and mouthpiece them to everybody. And people don't do that. That's the
biggest thing. Like, you wanna lose communication and be a problematic organization? Start getting mad at people for not claiming wins that, you know, that are for claiming your wins. Start getting mad. That happens all the time. Yeah. And if you just let it happen, your organization gets to a level that you would have never expected it to be at, Because the people who are good at talking usually aren't good at doing. Right. Say it again, the people that are good at talking usually aren't
good at doing. Well, if you Let them talk. Well, the irony is that yeah. The irony well, everybody needs marketing, right, apparently. Yeah. You know, understanding what people are good at, understanding their internal motivations, understanding your own internal motivations. The there's an idea in leadership theory, and I don't expound too many leadership theories only because I think they don't work fundamentally, because, again, leadership is is
almost an individuated act now. However, with that being said, there is a leadership theory that says that leaders and members it's called leader member exchange theory. Leaders and members of teams exchange content. Now I've always used that in a framing around emotional intelligence, because, yes, we'll exchange status or we'll exchange wins or we'll exchange blame or we'll exchange credit or we'll exchange feedback or we'll we'll exchange all of this stuff. We'll
exchange hierarchy, money, whatever. But the biggest thing that a leader and a member will exchange is emotional and is emotions and emotional exchanges. Our feelings are what we are going to exchange. Yes. Feelings of anger, feelings of disappointment, feelings of happiness, feelings of sadness.
Those feelings are what we are going to exchange. And until we all get replaced by the Terminator robots, which may be right around the corner, until we all get replaced by them, that's the one thing that only human beings can do well. And we just talked about the Internet being this machine of engagement. Right? This revolutionary
machine of engagement. The things that were prioritized, the exchanges that were prioritized pre Internet are still valuable, but their value has shifted around and where they show up has shifted around and how they show up in people's lives has shifted around. 1 of the things we like to do on this podcast is talk about solutions this year, and this leads us into this is a segue into the solutions conversation. So you talked about the size of
the wins. You talked about knowing your people. You talked about a little bit about blame and credit. I love how you said, you know, you could buy honesty, but you can't, you can't buy honesty, but you could build it. I love that. Wrote that down. That's brilliant. Obviously, there's applications from the military to the civilian life, military to to all these other different places, military's a bureaucracy, just like any other bureaucracy. They're gonna
pull something out of there. One of the things that I look at with, with extreme ownership and, and I look at it again as through my lens as a divorce and family mediator, I would sit across the table for 2 people who used to love each other and now don't. Yep. And I would watch a lot of a lack of accountability, a lack of ownership going on at that table, whether accidental or on purpose, whether influenced by other folks or not.
If you wanna build leaders for to to solve tomorrow's problems, heck, if you wanna build leaders to solve some of today's problems, let's focus on tomorrow's problems, the problems we haven't quite gotten to yet. If you want to build leaders to solve those problems, that act begins at home. Mhmm. And I'll go even deeper. I said this recently in a shorts episode that you should go back and listen to episode number 120. Sort of my
sharpest shorts episode yet. But I said, you know, paraphrasing from Jesus, telling his disciples that the harvest is much, but the laborers are few. Well, that's directed towards 12 disciples. Mhmm. Yes, sir. All of whom were men. Yes, sir. And so to the men listening to my podcast, whether you are, middle aged men, older retired men, or young men who have stumbled across this, this is for you. Men have to take ownership of every single thing in their sphere
of influence. That means getting up off the couch. That means not relying on playing video games for your entertainment or pornography for your sexual release. It means not looking at social media so much. It means making a plan. It means prioritizing and executing. It means taking ownership of making your bed and cleaning your room. Let's start with that. You don't have to go out and get a job immediately, but maybe taking ownership of the idea that it might be a good idea to
go get a job. You're already hardwired to do that. And the ladies who are listening, and there are many women who listen to my podcast, who do you wanna be with? Do you want to be with a man who actually takes ownership of every single aspect of his life and his fear of influence as much as he possibly can or do you want to be with? The opposite Because if he's taking ownership of everything in his sphere of influence, then that allows you to take ownership of everything in your sphere of
influence. And now those 2 can come together, and now we can have a real dynamite family and a dynamite team. And if we want to solve the problems of the future, leadership starts at home. And then you role model that for your children. And I'm saying this specifically because Atlas has written books for children just like Jocko has, and children are the children are the the the the fathers of the future men. Right? And they're the fathers of the future
daughters. Right? That are coming down the pike. Do you want to build intergenerational wealth? There's a lot of talk about building intergenerational wealth. Robert Kurosaki and many others talk about this idea. Well, generational wealth is more than just money. Money comes and money goes. Shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in 3 generations used to be the idea in America. And by the way, it still is.
What lasts longer than money? Well, the legacy that you give that is a spiritual legacy, the legacy of a 2 parent home, the legacy of appropriate role modeling of ownership. We may not have had much money, but we stayed married and we took ownership of everything in our sphere of influence. And then the child can go off and become the next thing because there's a granite underneath there that cannot be broken. Ownership always has its drawbacks, but ownership also has its privileges.
And when Jocko and Leaf talk about ownership, they of course use the adjective extreme next to it. And, I usually pair this book with the Oz Principle, which is another great book about accountability, because that one gets into the weeds a little bit with how you scale accountability
across massive organizations and massive bureaucracies. And that's another book where I read the first literally, the first ten pages of it, and it was everything that I ever heard from any of clients that I'd had in my leadership consultancy giving me feedback about their problems with accountability, with other people not taking accountability. It was literally everything I complained I'd ever read, and I thought who the heck had guts
to write this down and publish it. And so if you're gonna get extreme ownership, go pick up the Oz principle. It's written on the conceit of The Wizard of Oz. I recommend that book as well. 2 great books you can pair together. I talk about the nuts and bolts of ownership and the nuts and bolts of accountability and then go off and be accountable. And the privileges of ownership, the privileges of accountability are often not talked about.
Because at the moment that we are at right now in our culture, we talk a lot about rights, but not responsibilities. We talk a lot about wanting privileges, but not sacrifices. The idea that comes from Atlas, the idea that comes from Jocko and from all of the other folks that have come onto my podcast, that come onto this show and have talked about their past experiences, particularly military based experiences come from a perspective of sacrifice.
You sacrifice before you get the privileges. You sacrifice the things that you want today for a better future tomorrow inside of your sphere of influence. And sacrifice doesn't always look like taking a bullet. Sometimes sacrifice looks like not letting your kid have a cell phone at 10 and just committing to picking them up every day so they're not on social media. And so you have a conversation with them.
Sometimes sacrifice looks like not having television in your house on 247 and maybe just having music on in the background and talking to each other to fill the silence. Sometimes sacrifice looks like not sacrificing mealtimes with your family because the boss who isn't going to be there at your funeral wants a little bit extra out of you. Sacrifice has to come before privilege and ownership has its privileges. The sacrifice always
comes first. Those are some of the lessons I think that we could take from extreme ownership, but I'm going to let Atlas have the last word on this. As we round the corner, How can civilians apply these principles? I mean, we've kind of been talking about this this entire time, but what's a good summation for us as we round the corner? And by the way, thank you for coming on the show today. This has been an awesome conversation. For sure. And, I look forward to
maybe potentially having you back on in the future. I love it. Yeah. So, how can civilians apply extreme ownership? I think most civilians, I think most people are renting their lives, and they look at their lives as rentals. And whenever you're in real estate, you, when you rent anything, you realize that, a rental isn't taken care of as much as, an owned house is. So if you own the house, your yard's taken care of. Your house is well painted. You know, things are
cared for a little bit more. When you're renting something, you treat it like a rental. And I think a lot of people's lives, they're treating their their lives as a rental. They're driving it as fast as they can. They're showing it off to their friends on social media. They're being as loud as possible with the things that they think that they can tell people that are believable. When in reality, it's it's a not not true inside them. You know, whatever they're showing to people is is
not truly who they are. They're fake, and people can spot a fake. You've stated this earlier in the show. It's easy it's easy for people to spot a fake. The whole phrase is fake it until you make it. That is not something I subscribe to. I think you should talk about it until you make it. I think you should highlight it until you make it, but faking it only brings in other fake people. So if you take that aside and you look at who you really want to be, own it. Don't rent it. When
you own it, your yard's gonna be tighter. Meaning you're gonna go to the gym. Your your thoughts inside your your your walls, this brain thing that you have in your head, they're going to be freshly painted. They're not going to be marred up with negativity. You're going to start taking care of the, the, the neighbors trash whenever it rolls into your yard, and you're gonna talk to your neighbor
instead of just complaining about them. The things that come with ownership are something that we control, but we rarely do nowadays because we are so afraid to talk to other people, especially those that are closest to us and the ones that impact our lives. So I'd say take ownership, stop renting your life, start thinking about things as you as you should instead of as people tell you you should. I know you've got books. I know you've got a website. Go
ahead. Talk talk with folks about where they can get ahold of you, where they can see you Yeah. Where they can get you. Where the where where can we where do we spot that TEDx conversation that you Yeah. Not conversation. I'm sorry. Speech that you, that you dropped. Where can we find you? Where are all the places we could find Atlas Altman? Yeah. Google how elite leaders win. You'll find me on on a TED stage talking about, my time with the president and and a
lot of general officers, the highest ranking people in the military. And I got I got very blessed and fortunate to be placed in the places that I was at. But it wasn't me. It was the teams that I got to, you know, find out about the people that were in my life. You know, Jesus likes to say, we be a fisher of men. And I took that to heart. You know, I like to figure out what people really want to do and then fuel that. And I find great success
whenever you do that. So, the books I have, the rule of 3 is number 1 in a lot of categories. It talks about a lot of the stories that I learned, from from these extreme leaders and some of my personal stories were, where I'm at. Shows, leaders dash kit.com/shows is all the podcasts that I've ever been on. I think there's like 40 or some odd shows that are posted out there if you wanna hear more of me. I don't have a podcast yet, but I'm gonna do a 100 podcasts before I
even think about it because I'm finding great things. Like, I found a I wrote down 3 pages of notes from the first time we talked. Just just getting a feel for the the guest is is something that 3, 4, 4 of the podcast shows that I've been on has has done. And those shows are always amazing. And, you know, they they're award
winning for a reason. So, and then, you know, I have a Fox leadership series for kids, and that talks about the basics of life as as they own themselves as a leader and allows the parents to connect with their kids at bedtime usually. And then it asks a series of questions, allowing the parent to share that part of the day where they're leading something that they don't
normally share with their kids. So it's a deep connection that forms between the parent and child, and then the child starts to look at the parent more as a leader, rather than someone that provides them everything that they ever wanted. And interestingly enough, you know, the kids not having the cell phone was a Yale study that was published last November. And they said that kids lead to happier lives if they aren't given a smartphone,
until later in life. And you know why that is, is because all the negativity that gets pushed out and and the positive vibes. So it's a weird mixture for kids to try to figure out that chaos that we all figure out later in life or as you and I did. We grew up with it and it started to become really noisy. Yeah. World's so noisy right now. So that's your thanks for letting me plug my stuff. Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. No. It was
it was it was great to to have you on. And, of course, we are going to have links in the show notes to all of the places where you could find Atlas Altman, all the places where you could find information about his books, his TED talk, his, his leadership courses, his consultancy, everything that he's ever done. We're gonna have links to all of that to the show notes below the podcast player of the show you're listening to, right now.
If you would like to stay on the path with us here at leadership toolbox, we have, we have a few things that you may wanna consider. We're not as good as Atlas, but we like we try to kinda worm our way in there. You know? We, of course, would recommend that you subscribe and like this podcast. Recommend that you tell every single leader that you know that the leadership lessons from the great books podcast exists. Of course, we love it if you go on Apple, Spotify, drop us 5 stars,
subscribe, pass it around your email list. Of course, word-of-mouth is how this show grows, so tell all your friends. If you have people who, you know, won't listen to a podcast or they won't attend a training, how do you get a leadership tools? Well, we have this little book that was released back in, April of 20 22 called 12 rules for leaders, the foundation of attentional leadership. I
co wrote that with my coauthor Bradley Madigan. And in it are the 12 rules, the 12 areas we think that leaders need to know the most about. And we've covered a lot of them today, including ownership and accountability, avoiding the blame credit trap, and many, many other spots. So go pick that up everywhere where you can find books, most notably Amazon, of course. And we have it in Kindle format and, of course, paperback. By the way, I have been promising an audiobook for years now. I should
probably get on that. Oh, by the way, there's another little red book we have that was little red at the time of its release back in 2018. But people started picking it up a little bit over COVID, and I'd recommend that you pick it up as well. It's called my boss doesn't care. 100 essays on disrupting your workplace by disrupting your boss. There's a nice snazzy red cover
with white lettering on it. I recommend you go pick that up if you're finally ready to disrupt your boss and disrupt your workplace, but you don't quite know which form of disruption to prioritize and to execute on. If you were having some uncertainty and a lack of decisiveness, that book is a guide because you're going to need a map. You're going to need something to help you. And then finally, we have a YouTube channel. You're gonna hear the audio of this
podcast on their YouTube channel. If you're listening to it on YouTube, you should subscribe to the Leadership Toolbox YouTube channel. We are ticking up our subscriber numbers as we ingest more of this podcast content into those algorithms that I often talk about. I haven't I think that's the first time I mentioned algorithms actually on this show. But, you should, you should listen and subscribe to, the, the the
leadership lessons from the great books podcast on YouTube. And of course watch the videos We are we have a backlog now of almost 50 videos. Don't worry We're getting videos up as quickly as we possibly can. And eventually, you'll see the video version of this podcast as well with Atlas Altman with all the same show notes, all the same information. But we are audio first. We're partisans for audio. And don't worry, Google. We see you operating over there. You and your little AI. We
got you covered. With that, I'd like to thank once again, Atlas Altman for coming on our podcast and joining us today. And as usual, as I always say, we're out.