Leadership Lessons From The Great Books - A Midsummer Night's Dream by William Shakespeare w/Libby Unger

1. Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells, and this is the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast, episode number 118 with our book today. Well, it's not really a book. It's our play today that continues, our journey through the works of Shakespeare in August. Now, you know, Shakespeare being Shakespeare, most folks reading Shakespeare in high school struggle with Shakespeare's plays, and we've mentioned this previously on other podcasts,

struggle because of the language, struggle because of the themes. But Shakespeare's ideas are eternal and are almost universal, and they sit, along with the Bible, along with, Greek and Roman myths, at the basis of Western civilization. They are indeed, I would say, one of the building blocks of western civilization. And there is no greater a play, or maybe no more famous a play, than the one we are going to read today. This play, mixes,

fairies. It mixes dream imagery. It mixes symbolism, but it also mixes good jokes, and it mixes, sort of slapsticky humor with higher ideals. And it sets as a template or it stands as a template for the furtherance of entertainment, in a well, and and not only entertainment, but also cultural transmission of knowledge, for individuals from generation to generation. Just like all of Shakespeare's plays, they'll still be performing this one long after we are all gone.

Today we are going to look at, well, what do you do with a newly captured Amazon? How do you get people to fall in love and get married? And what happens when you, well, when you fall asleep or chance, to dream? Today, we are going to read A Midsummer Night's Dream by, of course, William Shakespeare. And we are joined today on the podcast by our, I guess, I could say semi regular guest cohost now. Well, there we go. Semi regular. Libby Unger. How are you doing,

Libby? I'm terrific. Great to see you, Hassan. Awesome. Coming off of our last episode that we did together where, you know, we looked at, we looked at some really, really hard stuff, right, with, with totalitarianism and with language. Then we're gonna move to the movie something lighter with with this way, something not as not as heavy. And so, we're hoping to, pull some critical analysis out of this. And of course, you know, we're going to read it in the hopefully in the original,

not hopefully in the original language. And and the version that I have, and you can get this online, is the Folger, the Folger sorry not Folger Folger Shakespeare Library version. Oh it is the same version that Libby has right there there you go of A Midsummer Night's Dream. Now one of the interesting things about this particular play, and I would of course recommend this to anyone reading or trying to consume Shakespeare, is you can get an audio version of this as well

on Audible. And so, I would recommend both reading and listening to A Midsummer Night's Dream, in concert with each other. This will help you as a reader understand what's actually going on in the play and understand characters and it'll feel more cinematic. And this play does indeed feel cinematic when you read it. But I want to open up with act 1, scene 1 of A Midsummer Night's Dream by William Shakespeare. Enter Theseus, Hippolyta, and Phylo straight with others. Theseus. Now fair

Hippolyta, our nuptial hour draws on a pace. 4 happy days bring in another moon. But, oh me thinks, how slow this moon wanes. She lingers my desires like a step dame or a dowager, long withering out a young man's revenue. Hippolyta. 4 days will quickly steep themselves in night. 4 nights will quickly dream away the time. And then the moon, like to a silver bow, new bent in heaven, shall behold the night of our solemnities. Theseus. Go,

Phylo, straight. Stir up the Athenian youth to merriments. Awake the pert and nimble spirit of mirth. Turn melancholy forth to funerals. The pale companion is not for our palm. Philostrain, of course, exits. Hippolyta, I wooed thee with my sword, and I won thy love during doing the injuries. But I will wed thee in another key with palm, with triumph, and with reveling. Enter Aegias and his daughter Hermaia and Lysander and Demetrius. Aegias, happy B

Theseus, our renowned duke. Theseus, thanks, good Aegias. What's the news with thee? Aegias, full of vexation come I with complaint against my child, my daughter Hamia. Stand forth, Demetrius, my noble lord. This man hath my consent to marry her. Stand forth Lysander and be my and my gracious duke. This man hath bewitched the bosom of my child. Thou, thou, Alexander, thou hast given her runs and interchange love tokens with my

child. Thou hast by moonlight at her window sung with feigning voice versus of feigning love and stolen the impression of her fantasy with bracelets of thy hair, rings, gods, conceits, knacks, trifles, nose gaze, sweet meets, messengers of strong, prevailment, and unheartened youth. With cunning hast thou filched my daughter's heart, turned her obedience, which is due to me to stubborn harshness. And my gracious duke be it so she will not hear before your grace consent to Mary was

Demetrius. I beg the ancient privilege of Athens as she is mine. I may dispose of her, which shall be either to this gentleman or to her death according to our law immediately provided in that case. Theseus, what say you, Hermaiah? Be advised fair may to you your father should be as a god, one that composed your beauties, yea, and one to whom you are, but as form and wax by him and printed and within his power to leave the figure or disfigure it. Demetrius is a worthy gentleman.

I'm gonna pause right there because that sort of sets up the ideas that begin to really drive A Midsummer Night's Dream where Theseus, the Duke of Athens, is planning the festivities of his upcoming wedding to the newly captured Amazon Hippolyta. And Aegis arrives with his daughter Hermaia and her 2 suitors, Lysander, the man she wants to marry, and Demetrius, the man her father wants her

to marry. Aegis demands that Theseus enforce Athenian law upon Hermaia and execute her if she refuses to marry Demetrius. Now this is an interesting dynamic that is being set up right at the beginning of Shakespeare's play here because it is a it is a well, it is a 16th century dynamic. That's number 1. Number 2, it's a dynamic that reads that may ring a little bit false to us, considering that we live in the 21st century and we live in a world where women can choose who they marry.

We can even have women run for president, in our country. And so the challenges that are immediately beset that immediately beset us or set before us in wrapping our arms around this play are challenges partially of culture, but also partially of the passage of about 500 years in between the writing of this play and, of course, the times in which we live now.

All of this is very interesting because we are in August in an election year in the United States of America and a woman is running for president on a major, presidential platform ticket. And, and so issues or maybe not issues, but the concerns and the, challenges that women face are ones that we have consumed ourselves within our culture, I would say over the last 50 or 60 years, with increasing urgency and increasing pitch. Now I don't know if that's a good or bad thing, and that's not what

we're going to discuss here today. But my question for Libby, just to open up the door here is, first off, what did you think of A Midsummer Night's Dream when you read it? What's your initial impression of the story of the play? And then, this first act that sort of sets up this dichotomy between the father and the daughter and this challenge of power, what do you think about that between as it's framed up between men and women? Well, first of all, I loved I loved the play.

I actually remember it fondly from grade school. We did we did 3 Shakespeare plays, and I don't remember if it was 1 a year, from or to 5th grade, but Taming of the Shrew, Macbeth, and finally, A Midsummer Night's Dream. And I was I think I was Puck, or maybe I wanted to be Puck. You know, it was way too long ago, but I love the Puck character and how, like, mischievous he was. But just the, you know, the silliness of bottom name you know, the

ass, you know, named bottom. Mhmm. But but it was a it was fun, and you kick this podcast off with reference to some of our prior conversations with which, you know, The Road to Serfdom and King King Lear, and we we've had some heavy, conversations that seem very relevant. You know, they rhyme with our time. Mhmm. But, I it was just delightful to read something light. Mhmm. But, also, your final question was about the father and

daughter dynamics. I mean, you know, the the culture, let's not be let's be unburdened by what has been. You know? I can think of right now. It's like, dad, I don't wanna do what you want me to do. Let's be unburdened by what has been. And so there's always gonna be, you know, that fight or the tension between, like, parent and child and father and daughter, especially, you know,

500 plus years ago. Now I obviously say something that it's probably blasphemous by many, but I've all I've I've seen marriage predominantly being an economic occurring for economic reasons. And for many, for many generations and cycles, it was. Mhmm. I do, as I get older, see that it's about much more than that. But, you know, there was a necessity around preserving and carrying forward, you know, familial, safety that comes with, you know, economics and prosperity.

Mhmm. But the crime for not doing what one's father says and death? Holy cow. That's a little extreme. You've, but, you know, it just goes to show how we evolve over time from a societal perspective. Mhmm. I'm of a big believer that we're always moving up and to the right Mhmm. Meaning that we're always progressing towards thriving, a civilization that's, you know, thriving across all classes and genders and type.

But, you know, that tension between, you know, the current generation and the previous generation is timeless. It just manifests differently, and the consequences were a bit more extreme back then. But if you think about it being an economic relationship, you know, and you choose to marry someone other than who I'm supportive of Mhmm. You you don't trust them with your prosperity. That could be the end of a family and a line. Mhmm. So can I maybe rationalize it, you know, for a

different time? Perhaps. Do I support it? Oh, but yeah. Well, it seems as though and and this is one of the challenges with Shakespeare. Right? So he's pulling from previous references to myths and previous myths even that people of his time would have known. So, pulling from the, the western medieval slash getting into the renaissance understanding of, Greek and Roman myth. Right? What is an Amazon? What does that word even mean? Right? What is who is Demetrius, who was Hermia, who is Lysander?

What do these mean? Because everything has a double meaning in Shakespeare or sometimes even a triple meaning. We talked about this even with even with, when we talked about, not Macbeth, but, Angler. Right? These double and triple meanings, you know, and and the character of Theseus from Greek mythology and sort of what everybody would have known what those meant. And this is this is the hot house

of Shakespeare. This is by Shakespeare. This is why people in modern times struggle with reading Shakespeare sometimes because those references to those things everybody would have known in the 15th century. Or sorry. No. It's 16th century. Would have just known. We don't know those references anymore. They've dropped out of our culture. Right? And it's not that

we don't know who the Greek and Roman gods were. It's the depth of that knowledge just isn't and isn't there, and the depth of that connection isn't there. So Shakespeare's writing or writing A Midsummer Night's Dream is a light poetic comedy. I believe, an early critic of of, of Shakespeare's play in the, in the 17th century.

Samuel Pepis found the play to be quote unquote the most insipid ridiculous play that I ever saw in my life, quote, even though he did admit that it had, quote, some good dancing, some handsome women, which was all to my pleasure. Okay. This is this is because it was a piece of popular entertainment. It wasn't meant to be sort of like Hamlet where it's a really a sort of a cultural commentary on power or even Macbeth. Right? Or even Richard the third where he's doing historical, you know,

his historical genre. Here he's doing comedy. And so comedy is supposed to be light. It's supposed to have references. It's supposed to have double entendres. It's supposed to have all these different kinds of meanings. We lose all of that. I forget it later because he just lost the references. They just dropped out

of our culture. And so we do, we hear we we take the raw thing, right, that raw relationship between a father and a daughter or that raw fact of a decision, and we pull that forward because that resonates across time. But the other context around that, we sort of struggle with. Which? You talked about marriage being a contractual act. I believe it was CS Lewis

who, infamously said or might have been GK Chesterton. This is one of those theologians, writing in the, writing in the 20th century said that, you know, everything was fine. I might be paraphrasing this poorly. Everything was fine with marriage until love entered into entered into the fray. Like, the 9th century. Completely. Right? Yeah. You know, everything was working out working out really well. But marriage as a economic arrangement, we still don't even really

like to talk about that in our culture. Even in even in modern times. I mean, yeah, we live in an era where and the myth of the 50% divorce rate is truly a myth. Like, if people or not, I shouldn't say myth. You can question that number. Right? Is there a 50% divorce rate among people who are of a certain economic strata and who don't have ideals that bind them together, for sure. Absolutely. They go beyond love, absolutely. Divorce rate's above

50%. But when people have ideals that bind them together, in particular religion, or are or have some other external commitment that binds them together that's not material. Divorce rates are not 50%. Divorce rates are way the hell lower than that. It's more like 10%, 15%. It's way down. But we don't talk about the stuff that binds people together in marriage. And this play is a little bit about that. Talk a little bit about that

if you if you wanna grab grasp onto some of that. Because they they are trying to bind each other together. They're trying to get married. And it's not just and and there's 5 interlocking sort of sort of ideas going on here. We're gonna be talking to you. Yeah. There's so many different themes, or plots and subplots that all, you know, come into play with with that. Well and even and even when EGS is talking about, how Lysander has sort of, interchanged love tokens with his child. Right?

You know, he says, thou hast by moonlight at her window sung, right, with feigning voice versus feigning of love that stolen the impression of her fantasy with, and then this is objects that he brought to his to his daughter. Right? Bracelets of your hair, rings, gods, conceits, all of that. Knacks, trifles, nosegates. Nosegates were flowers. Sweetmeats, by the way. If you don't know what sweetmeats are, go look them up. I'm not

gonna tell you on the podcast. Just go. I don't wanna ruin the surprise. Message is a strong prevailment. And that's how he he sums it up. The father, messengers of strong prevailment and unhardened youth. Look. I have 2 daughters. If some dude sniffing around doing all that, I'm going to have an opinion. Mhmm. I just I just I I am. And my daughter one of my daughters is 19. The other one is 14. I'm gonna have an opinion if the 19 year old has a boyfriend's living around.

I'm going to have an opinion about that kid. Now back in the day, my opinion would have probably held more weight than it does currently. Right. But my opinion still does hold weight. And so there's there's these kinds of dynamics that are happening here where Shakespeare is setting the setting the the table for what will happen later on. But I kinda derailed you on that whole, like, marriage is a multiple layered thing sort of a little Yeah. No.

No. It's okay. And we can talk about courtship too. I think we're I think we're I think we're I go with more of this is the, the whole play is about kind of balancing the rational and the irrational Yeah. Or, you know, the dream state with the, you know, grounded present state. Mhmm. And, you know, the at an extreme, you can be told to love something, and you'll you'll love the next thing that you'll see. You know? So I I bring that forth to modern day.

You know, and I can't help but bring it forth to modern day when we're told you know, you you're told over and over again what right should be Mhmm. By all different institutions. And so then you see what right is and bad is without questioning what is right and bad. Yeah. So when I think of, you know, you're in the forest and, you know, and, you know, the sleeping yeah. The sleeping woman is, has the flowers dappled all over her, and the first person she looks at, she falls in love

with. And, you know, regardless of the fact that he's a pompous literally a pompous ASS, you know, it's a actor with a donkey head. You know, it like, it it it's this deeper meaning around, you know, we're told to love what we see next Mhmm. Without questioning it. Mhmm. You know? And I'm probably putting more depth into this play and meaning, but it is really interesting. You know? What you know, do we really love what we think You know, what you know, do we really

love what we think we're seeing? You you know, to the yeah. At the beginning with your her Maya loving Lysander. You know, I I is that love or lust? Is it real? You know, we saw Romeo and Juliet, kind of kind of these same themes around, you know, love and willing to die for your love. But, you know, what

is just lust of of youth? I mean, being told what you should love versus, like, something that's gonna be grounding and, you you know, your way that makes sense on a rational basis through the rest of your life. And since on a rational basis doesn't need mean money. It could mean that you have similar values. It could mean that you have similar values around children, around how to have a Yeah. I would agree. And subjective being with dreams. Right. Right.

Which Yeah. I would agree with that. Objective being with dreams. Thank you. Right. Which we're gonna talk about here in a little bit. I wanna talk about the faith. Yeah. The the well, I'm gonna talk about the fairies. I wanna go to Oberon and Titania and the fairies and and and the the the the pygmies and the and the ass and puck and all of yeah. I wanna I wanna get into all of this. So courtship. Okay. Last question. So courtship here. That's also a key theme in A Midsummer Night's Dream.

So you can court somebody either by, you know, knocking them out and making them love you, which apparently is I mean Extreme. Well, you know, these days, we would call it slipping or making, and we would say that's not, appropriate, and we're going to send you to jail. Back in the day, apparently, however, you know, the use of the use of flour juice, like, that was that was kind of that was kind of fine. Like, nobody nobody really really objected to that

apparently. And it is there there is an idea in here that is floating through A Midsummer Night's Dream. And we again, one of those things we don't talk about, that courtship the act of courtship itself at a psychological level is a drug that that that converts, like you said, lust to to to love. Right? But there's also a sub idea in here that if you can't do the courtship thing well, well, you know, we've kind of got these other it's kind of got these other things we can kind of give

you. And that just goes to prove an assertion that I've made even to my kids, as they have grown up that, you know, drugs have existed. And my my 7 year old was asking me about this the other day. Drugs have existed for I me. This is what human beings do. We find things that make us feel good, and we put them in our bodies. And some of them have terrible actually, most all of them have terrible damage. And if we and particularly if you misuse them, or don't use them in the in the correct

way. And I think that's an a sub idea, a second order idea that's sort of running through this play that I think people of that time watching it would have would have connected into immediately. And it's kind of interesting to me. I know Midsummer Night's Dream has been adapted in many different sorts of sorts of ways, but I don't know how heavily, in adaptation, that has been referenced or even, sort of leaned on. I know that there's a, oh, gosh.

There's a UK production of A Midsummer Night's Dream. It's like set in an alternative future. That was, that was shot a few years ago. And I know that variations of this story, most recently in 2016 on BBC 1, have done, like, TV and film adaptations of this. I've never I got to admit, I've never seen a TV adaptation of the midsummer night's dream, nor have I ever seen any of the film once, which is sort of a blind spot in my, like, like, reality.

And so I don't know how much, you know, reference I've seen cartoon versions, and we'll talk about cartoons here in a minute. I've seen cartoon versions of this, but I've never seen a live action version of of it. So, I don't know. I think Shakespeare would lean in on something here that's also another human universal. It's that idea of courtship as a drug.

You know? Because you know how good you feel when, like, somebody who you really like and someone who really likes you is, like, chasing you around the block. Everybody knows how good that feels. Yeah. I mean, love is I I just wrote down. Love is a dangerous drug when sought in its extreme. Mhmm. So when you think yeah. When love at is the end state or what you're what you're articulating as love, which is just oxytocin, you know, when sought in the extreme,

can be dangerous. And that's when we see infidelity and, you know, and all those kind of, things come through or unhealthy relationships when when the when you're the one you're you're you're seeking is no longer interested in you. Right? Mhmm. So that's that's an inch that's an interesting concept around it being a a drug, and kind of why you need to balance, you know, balance it with other balance the oxytocin lust thing,

you know, with the other values that really matter Right. In, you know, in life, you know, that have long sustained positive impact on your life versus just momentarily momentarily pops. Momentarily pops. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Okay. Let's talk about sleep and trickery because the we we we've referenced this a couple of times. Let's talk about the we we talked about the drugs piece, but I wanna talk about these, let's talk about these fairies. So I

wanna skip here, a little bit. I'm gonna go to act 2, scene 1, and I'm gonna move through this, a little bit quickly. And, there's so, you know, there's there's there's there's interlocking ideas in A Midsummer Night's Dream because it's not just enough to sort of do a play. It wasn't enough for Shakespeare. Write a play that was merely about, courtship and romance and marriage. He'd already kinda done that with, with Romeo and Juliet, which was a tragedy. And so so he

was he was looking to do something different here with comedy. And and the challenge, of course, of a writer, which is also something that we talk about on this podcast, the critical challenge of writing is how do you how do you introduce, a new element, to a piece of writing without it being jarring for the audience? And so he decided he was going to introduce, fairies and specifically, Oberon and Titania, king and queen of the fairies. So we're gonna look at act 2 scene

1. We're gonna read through through, sort of some dialogue here around well, around how do you make somebody fall in love? All right, Robin, I'm sorry, act 2 scene 1 of A Midsummer Night's Dream. Enter a fairy at one door and Robin Goodfellow at another. Robin, how now, spirit, wither wander you? Fairy, over hill over dale, through bush through briar, over park over pail, through flood through fire. I do wander everywhere, swifter than the moon's sphere. And

I serve the fairy queen to do her orbs upon the green. The cowslips tall her pensioners be in their gold coats spots you see. These be those be rubies fairy favors in those freckles live their savors. I must go seek some dewdrops here and hang up her on every cowl slip's ear. Farewell, thou love of spirits. I'll be gone. Our queen and all her elves come here and on. Robin, the king doth keep his rebels here tonight. Take heed the queen. Go not within his

sight. For Oberon, his passing fell in wrath because that she, as her attendant, hath a lovely boy stolen from an Indian king. She never had so sweet a changeling. And jealous Oberon would have the child, knight of his train to trace the forest's wild. But she, for force, withholds the loved

boy, crowns him with flowers, and makes him all her joy. And now they never meet in grove or green by fountain clear or spangled starlight sheen, but they do square that all their elves for fear creep into acorn cups and hide them there. Very. Either I mistake your shape and making quiet or else you are

that shrewd and knavish sprite called Robin Goodfellow. Are not you he that frights the maidens of the villagerie, skim milk and sometimes labor in the queered, and bootless make the breathless huswife churn, and sometime make the drink to bear no barm, mislead night wanderers laughing at their harm. Those that hobgoblin call you and sweet talk. You do their work and they shall have good luck. Are you not he? Robin, thou speakest

to write. I am that merry wanderer of the night. I jest you over on and make him smile when I affect and being fed horse beguiled, neighing in likeness of a filly foal. And sometimes I lurk I in a gossip's bowl in very likeness of a roast crab. And when she drinks against her lips, I bob and on her withered doo lap or the ale. The wisest aunt telling the saddest tale. Sometimes her 3 foot stool mistakeeth me, then slip by from her bum, down topple she, and Taylor

cries and falls into a cough. And then the whole choir hold their hips and laugh and waxen in their mirth and knees and swear and merry our hour was never wasted there. My room fairy, here comes Oberon. Fairy, and hear my mistress. Would that he gone. Enter Oberon, king of the fairies, at one door with his train, and Titania, the queen at another with hers. Or Titania, not Titania. Titania, the queen and another with hers. Oberon. Ill met

by moonlight, proud Titania. Titania. What? Jealous Oberon? Fairy Skip Hintz. I have forsworn his bed and company. Oberon. Tarry rash woman. Am not I, thy lord. Titania. Then I must be thy lady, but I know when thou hast stolen away from fairy land and in the shape of corn sat all day playing on pipes of corn, inversing love to amorous Phylida.

Why art thou here? Come from the farthest steep of India, but that forsooth the bouncing Amazon, your buskinned mistress, and your warrior love, to Theseus must be wedded, and you come to give her their bed joy and prosperity?

Oberon. How canst thou, thus for shame, Titania, glance at my credit with Hippolyta, knowing that I, knowing I know thy love to Theseus, didst thou not lead him through the glimmering night from Paragonu, whom he ravished, and make him with fair Augeleus break his faith with Adriaan and Anteopa? Natania, these are forgeries

of jealousy. And never since the middle summer spring met we on hill and dale or forest or me by paved fountain or by rushy brook or in the beached margant of the sea to dance our ringlets to the whistling wind. But with thy brawls thou hast disturbed our sport. Therefore the winds, piping to us in vain and is in revenge, have sucked up from the sea contagious fogs, which, falling in the land, hath every pelting river made so proud that they have overborne their continents.

The ox hath therefore stretched his yoke in vain. The plowman lost his sweat, and the green corn hath rotted. Ears youth attained a beard. The fold stands empty in the drowned field and crowds are fatted with murrain flock. The 9 men's morse is filled with mud, and the quaint mazes in the wanton green for lack of tread are undistinguishable. Human mortals want their winter here. No night is now with him

or Carol blessed. Therefore the moon, the governess of floods, pale in her anger, washes all the air that romantic diseases do abound. As thorough this distemperature we see the seasons alter, hoary headed frost, swollen fresh lap of the crimson rose, and old hymns, then an icy crown, an odorous chaplet of sweet summer buds, is, as in mockery, set. Spring this summer, the chilling autumn, angry winter, change their wanted liveries, and the amazed world by their increase

now knows not which is which. And the same progeny of evils comes from our debate, from our dissension. We are their parents and original. Titania has become unburdened by what has been. It's so hard to resist. It's it's just it's just right there. It's it's so right there. So let's see. In act 2, scene 1,

what do we got here? What are we working with? So, sort of a subplot, right, in A Bidsummer Night's Dream between, between these two fairies, the king and queen of fairies, orally over the possession of, as was stated at the beginning of act, of scene 1, a young Indian boy. Oberon of course orders Puck, in this scene later on to obtain a special flower that makes people fall in

love with the next creature they see. Now Oberon wants to use this, of course, to make Titania fall in love with the beast and use her infatuation to get the Indian boy away from her. Demetrius, of course, comes in to the play at this point, pursued by Helena. And then when Robin returns Oberon, who sympathizes with Helena's love, orders him to find the Athenian man, Demetrius, and apply some of the flower's magic nectar to his eyes. Magic nectar, sleeping, dreams, memory,

trickery. Mostly trickery is what's on display here. And of course we see this in the character of Robin Goodfellow, a puckish fellow such as it were, who is the one who obtains the special flower, right, and delivers it. Because as he stated when he was speaking to the fairy, right at the beginning of, act 2 scene 1, he is the one who is the merry wanderer of the night. He jests over on and makes him smile. He's the one who lurks, in a gossip's bowl, right, and causes her to to,

to, spill her ale. Right? And, of course, to spill information from her lips. You know, he's the one who, when the wisest aunt is telling the saddest tale, is mistaken for a 3 foot stool and then causes her to fall down, which, by the way, everybody was watching this play live back in the, back in 16th century would have laughed when they when they would have seen this because they would have gotten the reference immediately. And then, so so he's a he's a he's a court jester,

such as it were. He's a he's a comedian. He's weaving humor into his approach to the world, but he's also a servant of the king, which is something else that we that we don't talk about too much. And so let's kick off with that. So comedy. Right? Like, we talked a little bit on this podcast, in particular,

Libby, a little bit about comedy. And I'm a big fan of folks like Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock and Jerry Seinfeld, and I'm a big fan of stand up comedy in general, Marc Maron, because I think stand up comedy is really hard. But I also think it's a form of trickery. It's it's it's taking something that we know is either tragic or heroic or dramatic and and finding the funny twist in it. I I remember infamously that Steve the comedian Steve Harvey back in the day, was

being interviewed. And the interviewer asked him, you know, how does he come up with his jokes? And Steve said, you have to understand, every single time a tragedy happens, every comedian on the planet already has the joke. We just can't say it. Yeah. And humor is a means of trickery. Humor is a means of getting across an idea, in a in a package that people will laugh and immediately accept. So, Olivia, I know you like you said you like the role of Puck

and you like Puck there. What do what do you like about Puck? How is Puck a court jester? And, here's a leadership question for you. Do leaders need a court jester? Yes. Yes. Yes. Leaders need court gestures. They need the truth tellers. It you know, and that's what comedians are. Yeah. That's what, the gestures are. They're the truth tellers, and they aren't always the most popular, you know, when you you turn they turn the light on that which does not want the light turned on them.

But when I think about what they're doing, you know, is they're essentially knocking you out of your thought process and your thought patterns. And so they're forcing you to think differently, about what you're observing than you currently are. And by breaking that thought pattern, you know, and especially, like, in tragedies, You know, you can have people who are on that hamster wheel of, pain and victimology and,

you know, and sadness. And just that moment of light can break you out of that to laugh and, you know, it is over it's overset in its tripe, but, you know, but light is what, you know well, light is what makes the, you know, the roaches scatter, but it does actually make the darkness go away. Mhmm. And, but what I like about Puck, you know, is he's he's not necessarily light. Mhmm. But the mischievousness, the playfulness, that's and bringing in the fun and

levity into moments. That's what, you know, that's what helps keep us all lighter is bringing, like, levity into moments, you know, and not taking life so seriously. I I often say that life is too short to take seriously, and the older I get, the more I mean that. You know? Like, life will go on. Have some fun. So a good little trickery. But Well, there's also a little bit of is it interesting you mentioned he's he's thought of as being funny, but he's actually mischievous.

Right? The the Puck character, or the character of Puck, Robin Goodfellow. The one of the the the things that's interesting. So the the comedian, Bill Burr, was actually being interviewed by Jerry Seinfeld on a comedian that's in cars getting coffee, right, one time. And and this this stuff sticks out to me. Bill Burr goes he says to to Bill he says to Jerry, You're actually very angry. But, like, you hide it because you have, like, this lilt that goes up in your voice at the end of

every joke. And so people forget how angry you actually are and you're irritated about everything. But I hear it. Ew. Right. I hear it. But you, like, you hide it so well. And Jerry goes, oh, no. Yeah. You're exactly you're completely correct. I'm angry about everything all the time. And then he of course, he laughs, and then Bill laughs. And Bill's like, you made an entire career off of people not understanding that you're actually irritable about all of this.

And this is this is the the cut underneath Right? Because it's not just the joke on top. It's the the negative things underneath. So you got a little bit of this with, with with folks like, what's his name? Oh, gosh. Daniel Convenience back in the eighties. Bill Hicks. Yes. So Bill Hicks. Right? Bill Hicks, Mark Marron, those kinds of guys where like, I watched Mark Marron come out one time. But you know he's angry. Oh, yeah. Oh, but oh, please. Oh,

please. Yes. He's give me a break. Break. And he comes out with this pile of, like, notebook papers and just puts them down and he just starts talking. And, you know, and, so there's how does how does the jokester and I don't want to pull it apart because it's it's comedy and it's gossamer and all that. I don't want to pull it too much apart. But is it okay to be angry? Not okay. Is it if you're the court jester and you're supposed to be pointing out that the emperor has no clothes, I'm mixing

a bunch of metaphors here. Yeah. Is it okay to be angry about that? Is that fine? No. That is actually kinda laughing at the truth. Right? Like, that's what I think is is so important is, you know, is that sometimes we wake up to our own truths. Right? And, yes, I'm I'm angry, but I don't wanna be, or, like, I wanna bring levity to it. Like, I wanna find the humor in that which I'm, like, getting

irritated about. And that's what Seinfeld is always doing is, yeah, he gets irritated, but he's finding levity in it. Right. I actually thought you were gonna bring up Bill Burr and Bill Maher. Oh, well yeah. I knew. That was the best. Like, Bill Burr was going after Bill Maher for his haughty elite intellectualism. And it was awesome. Right? Like, because, you know, Bill was Mar was not apologizing, and he thought, you know, he wasn't finding any levity at all in his intellectualism. He's

like, I actually am superior to you. It was the most it was the most uncomfortable. So the what we're referencing It was. If you go back and listen to, oh gosh. I don't know. It's been released in the last 2 or 3 months. You can go find it on the Internet. Yeah. Bill Maher's episode of Club Random where he interviewed Bill Burr. And you're right. I was listening to this while I was mowing my front lawn, and I was like, oh my god. He didn't give him any room to breathe at all. And I don't think

None. None. And I don't think Bill Maher's ever been dealt with like that before. It was and it was kind of and but where's Bill gonna go? It's his own shell. Like, are you gonna walk off your own shell? Like, what are you gonna do? So you're stuck there getting pushed into a corner by a guy who is not giving you any daylight. It kind of reminded me a little bit and,

again, every episode, I have to bring this up. It kind of reminded me of rolling with a really good jujitsu practitioner where you're just trying stuff and it's just not working, and you're like, what the hell? I can't figure out this Rubik's cube. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What I loved about it, though, is a few weeks later, because as you said, it was really uncomfortable. I was watching it going, oh, boy. Where is this one go? Oh, boy. This is rough because Burr is not letting up, but he's brought

on, and he's having fun with it. Yeah. But later, Mars said, I was just playing with it, and I've called BS on that. In the moment, I don't think he was playing with it, but later, I think he actually saw, like, I was wearing no clothes. Right? Like Right. He could step away from it later and see, like, oh, actually, Burr he has probably a few points. I'm not gonna admit to which ones, but I was rolling with it. And that's why like, you may not be what comedy will good comedy will do. Like,

you like, often will laugh. Mhmm. We don't always know why. Right. But, you know, at like, the discomfort and, you know, and, you know, and those, awful things that are said right after you know, those funny things that are maybe very bleak when you say them, but they're they make you think after a sad moment. Right. It makes you think. And so bringing it back to, like, Oberon and and Titania, like, maybe he didn't want her to love the beast so he could control, yeah, the Indian boy.

Maybe he just wanted to be loved again. Well You know? And that's what happens. Well, in Titania. So let's let's not let Titania off the hook a little bit. She's like, listen. You're just jealous. I'm a do what I want. I can't be told. I'm a do what I want. And I I when I when I read to Tanya's character. I'm reminded of the line from, the Billy Joel song. She's always a woman. Right? Okay. She can't be convicted. She's earned her degree.

So, like, that we we don't we struggle in our western culture currently, and I think probably we always have. But I think the struggle was less in previous times than it is now. Your optionality. Right. Exactly. Well, as you increase your optionality, the struggle increases. Right? But we don't we don't we are not comfortable talking about women's egos. We're just not. We're not comfortable talking about that. Because it's always the men. The women and Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm not saying that, like men. Well, I'm not saying that, like, that that that men are as clean and pure as the wind driven snow. Give me a break. Let's be real here. Neither neither is. We're both human. Right. We're both humans. And how that ego is going to we talk a lot I'll draw a parallel here. We will talk a lot about the problem or the challenge that it is a problem of men and violence, Like, how men manifest anger through violence. That is a problem for

sure. Partially, it has to do with how men are in culture, but also partially, it has to do with testosterone and biological factors and a whole bunch of other things. Right? I I've raised 2 sons. Trust me. And I've raised 2 daughters. Trust me. Men and women are biologically different, in case the Olympic Committee is paying attention. Just just want to point that out. Okay. So men will manifest anger through we will talk about that all day. All day.

But we will not address how women manifest their egos, particularly in leadership positions, and sort of where that winds up bad because we're caught in this current moment of, well, to paraphrase her again, go back to the Billy Joel. Right? She can't be convicted. She can't. You're done. You can't say anything. You just gotta let her go. Well, maybe I'd be okay with that if she weren't in a position of power. We're just letting her go could have

some back Very Right. Deleterious consequences for me. Yeah. You know? Exactly. I don't wanna have her mouth writing a check that I have to cash with my actions. Exactly. Yep. That's a great way to put it. That's where we are. And so Titania has got an ego. You know? She wants to and and, of course, she wants to manipulate over on a little bit, which which we're we're we're we're seeing that sort of dynamic tension as well.

And, overall, wants to manipulate her, and that's that's the manipulation that's happening between both of them. Again, just as in a love relationship or in a marriage, I'm not saying manipulation happens in marriage, although we would be fools. We still believe that it does not make in any relationship. You know? I mean, politics is everywhere. You know? Right. Poli not politics as in, like, governmental politics, but we're always positioning

and influencing. Mhmm. You know? And, you know, and whether it be with your sibling, whether it be with your child, whether it be with your, you know, your wife or your husband or boyfriend, girlfriend, like, you're always positioning and posturing. Mhmm. It's just about what is the intent Mhmm. And what is that what is the

outcome. You know, the stronger relationships are when we you know, is when, you know, we understand our impulses, but we don't act on them because some of our limbic brain impulses are limbic brain driven and about status and control and ego. Right. But once we understand that, then we don't give into it, and we can, you know, have a healthier discussion and relationship. Well, what happened what happened to the idea of us overcoming our ego? Like, there seems to be

absolutely no talk of that. That's a it's a really good question. I think there's a role for ego, but I think, it me it's just tempered. You know? Narcissism is all about ego. Right? Oh, yeah. Narcissism is all about being seen and validated no mat or what. Right. Because I'm, you know, because I'm worthy and I'm better you know, all all of those things. But Yeah.

Yeah. Overcoming ego, I don't know I could play I could play devil's advocate that we don't wanna overcome it because then it's the reverse just passivity and not having positions and not wanting to, you know, debate or counter or come to the you know, have critical

conversations that help us come to a good solution. You know, what this is probably gonna be heretical, but I've seen in too many marriages and in too many relationships where it's a lot easier for the man to just not say anything than to deal with the woman who's controlling the housing relation yeah, the household relationship. Mhmm. And, you know, you'd be like I hope you still let me

I've observed. I don't want I don't wanna debate that either. Right. It is a lot easier not to, but the maybe aren't so great. Right? Like, you know, as you said, the consequence of that is I don't have I don't I don't there's no checks that she's making me write, you know, figuratively as a result of some of that. Right. Well, I think also it's so let me let me say this. I I do think there is a lot of in marriages. I'll be I mean,

I'm married. I've I've hang around other married people. I spend a lot of my time hanging around other married people. I see a lot of other people's marriages. There's a time to advance, and there's a time to retreat. It's it's a dance right now. If you're always retreating, that's a problem. If you're always advancing, that's also a problem. The the the challenge is figuring out here's the biggest challenge, at least in in

in my marriage and in other people's marriages that I've seen. The biggest challenge is because is it the biggest challenge is figuring out where the advance and where the retreat is, where the boundaries are on that. Right? So Yeah. I act I actually think this is yeah. There's a bigger cultural thing here is that we've had the you know, it it's not feminism in a, in the marriage. It's more what you're talking about in leadership in business and in leadership in politics in the

country Yeah. Is that we've gotten to a place where everyone's retreated Right. To allow that voice to be, you know, to allow the feminine voice to be dominant. Mhmm. And it's now causing a lot of problems Problems. Yep. That could be lives and livelihood because, you know, we haven't counterbalanced it with more masculine yeah, necessary masculine voices and tones. And that's the balance between, like, ego and empathy, are those the right

things to care? But we do need the balance for the ecosystem and for society to survive. And so what yeah. The so, anyway No. I think you're right. Here was over indexing on ego, right, and not being challenged. And over on, you know, challenges are in a mischievous way. Right? Right. Exactly. Right. And he's not going to go at her Yeah. And it brings back but it brings back order. Right. Right. Exactly. That's it. Find their love again. Right? Yes.

That's it. Right. No. No. I think that's no. I think that's that's so in a Midsummer Night's Dream, that there's there's love brings chaos. Right? Because it's a strong emotion. Right? Or we can even say, let's just let's frame it. Let's frame it in monotone. Lust brings chaos because it's a strong feeling. It's a strong emotion. Lust and love bring chaos. Okay. So how do you and this is the problem maybe that Shakespeare is seeking to solve with A Midsummer Night's

Dream. How do you counterbalance that? What are the forces that pull that back? And, look, civilization is the price we pay for having a little bit of a reduction in our in our appetites. And if we don't have I mean, this is what I I'll sometimes send this to my kids. I'll say, listen. Particularly, if I'm having a conversation with another adult that they're bored by, particularly when they were younger, angry, and they'd be

upset, and they'd be like, whatever. And they'd throw a fit or whatever, and then I'd correct them, and then they'd be all mad or whatever. And I keep running and having the conversation with the adult. And then when I'm done with the conversation with the adult, then we can, you know, leave the venue. Right? And the

other adult, of course, looks at me. Usually, that situation looks me and go and kind of is appreciative of the fact, and you can see it behind their eyes, that I'm just gonna keep the adult interaction going Yeah. And finish it when we get to our natural conclusion. And then they right. Because there's an order for things. Right? That's bringing order to chaos. Right? But then I'll tell turn around and tell my kids. I always tell them with feedback. And my oldest daughter in particular

will tell you this. I'm building a civilization here. That's why I'm having the conversation. This is called civilization building. That's what you need to be participating in, and I'm role modeling this for you right now in this particular interaction. Now my kids don't buy that until they're in their twenties. Right. But that's okay. Are probably, like, thirties.

Thirties. Yeah. It's it's fine. Yeah. But that's okay because we if you don't role model it like like, what we have what we're role modeling right now, and I see this in a lot of families. What we're role modeling is the adults, the Oberons, and the Titanias subsuming or retreating themselves to the kids. And that's a disorder too. And kids are great. Kids are wonderful. But quite frankly, kids need to be civilized. They

just they they do. Right? So that they can be around others. Primarily, they can be around other kids without being sociopaths and narcissistic little knuckleheads. But also so that eventually they can grow up to be, adults that can continue to advance the society, which used to be something again that we know and that Shakespeare is just dropping into the

play because he knows that this is the thing that we're doing. You don't have to actually say it, but now we've reached a point in our culture where we have to say it out loud and encourage people to do it. And I find that to be I find that to be fascinating. I find that to be very interesting. It's sort of that cultural evolution thing that's that's going on in, in real time. One other point about Titania's speech here in act 2 scene 1 that I find very

interesting. She's she's comparing Oberon's moods to season, and to seasonality and to seasonal shifts. So basically she's saying, you know, you're a stubborn moron, basically, you know, whether it's spring, summer, winter, or fall. And and this is this is very clever of Shakespeare to kind of tie this in because it grabs this idea that or it reinforces the idea of seasonality in the play, but it also reinforces the idea that goes back to, of course, the name of the play, a midsummer

night's dream. Not a fall, not a winter, not a spring. And this, of course, would have been one other area that would have resonated very strongly with his, with his watchers, with his viewers of this play because they were, I mean, they were what we would call now organic farm to table, agricultural, you know, generations farm to table agricultural lifestyle. No industrialization, threshing with wooden tools,

eating what they grew and what they could kill. You know, they they understood something that we've lost in our industrialized modern world. And and now our our service industry modern world where we don't even touch our food. It's just we go to the grocery store and get it or it's delivered to us via via DoorDash. You know? But he understood something that they also understood as this is sometimes another reference that we or perhaps another reference that we

miss here in, in A Midsummer Night's Dream. Okay. Cool. I wanna turn the corner a little bit. I wanna talk about cultural transmission via the most unlikely vehicle of all, Looney Tunes. Yes. I did say that correctly. I've only talked about Looney Tunes on this podcast for a little while. I can't think of a better person to talk about it with then,

then, Libby here. I'm a huge fan of, of Looney Tunes, and I'm going to actually sort of put the weight of that, on, well, on the remainder of, of act 2 scene 1. So we're gonna go we're gonna go back to the book. We're back to the play. Back 2, A Midsummer Night's Dream, act 2, scene 1. We're gonna pick up where Oberon responds to Titania. So, Oberon, do you amend it then? It lies in you. Why should Titania cross for Oberon? But I do but beg a little changeling

boy to be my henchman. Titania, set your heart at rest. The fairyland buys not a child of me. His mother was not a beveaucherous of my order and in the spiced Indian air by night full often after she gossiped by my side and sat with me on

Neptune's yellow sands. Mark them, mark traders on the flood when we have laughed to see the sails conceive and grow big bellied with the wanton wind which she with pretty and swimming gait following her womb was enriched with my young swire would imitate and sail upon the land to fetch me trifles and return again as from a voyage rich with merchandise But she being mortal of that boy did die and for her sake do I rear up her boy and for her sake I will not part with him.

Oberon, how long within this would intend you stay? Titania, perchance slept at Theseus's wedding day. If you will patiently dance in our round and see our moonlight revels, go with us. If not, shun me, and I will spare your haunts. Oberon, give me that boy and I will go with thee, Titania. Not for thy fairy kingdom. Fairies away. We shall chide downright if I longer stay. Titania and her fairies exit. Oberon, well, go thy way. Thou shalt not from this grove like torment

thee for this injury. My gentle puck, come hither. Thou remember since once I sat upon a promontory and heard a mermaid on a dolphin's back, uttering such a dulcet and harmonious breath, that the rude sea grew civil at her song and certain stars shot madly from their spheres to hear the sea maid's music. Robin, I remember Oberon, that very time I saw, but thou couldst not flying between the

cold moon and the earth, Cupid all armed. A certain aim he took at a fair vessel thrown by the vest and loosed his love shaft smartly from his bow as it should pierce a 100000 hearts. But I might see a young cupid's fiery shaft quenched in the chased beams of the watery moon and the imperial fortress passed on in maiden meditation fancy free. Yet marked I where the vault of

Cupid fell. It fell upon a little western flower before milk white now purple with love's wound and maidens call it a love and idleness. Fetch me that flower, the herb I showed thee once, the juice of it on sleeping eyelids laid will make man or woman madly dote upon the next live creature that it sees. Fetch me this herb and be thou here again ere the Leviathan can swim a league. Robin, I'll put on a girdle round about the earth in 40 minutes.

He exits. Oberon, having once this juice I'll watch Titania when she is asleep and drop the liquor of it in her eyes. Next thing then she, waking, looks upon, be it on lion, bear, or wolf, or bull, on meddling monkey, or on busy ape, she shall pursue it with the soul of love. And ere I take this charm off from her by sight as I can take it with another I'll make her render up her page to me. Who comes here? I am invisible. I will overhear their conference.

The Demetrius Center is followed by Helena. I'm gonna leave that there for just a moment. When you read Shakespeare, you have to read it like this. Whether it's Macbeth or Hamlet or The Tempest or A Midsummer Night's Dream, you have to meet it in sort of a sort of a lilt with a with a low and, and even when you hear it performed, it sounds like well, it sounds like a John Barrymore performance from back in the day or maybe a Gil Good performance or these days because no

one knows those references. Patrick Stewart, right, or Ian McKellen. There you go. I mean imagine Patrick Stewart during Shakespeare, which by the way he did, by the way he was a Shakespearean actor. So was Kelsey Grammer, he of Frasier Crane fame, began his career performing Macbeth and Hamlet. And of course when they read these lines, they read these words, they put on this this vaulted voice. And this is how we think about Shakespeare. We even read it in the voice in our heads.

This is weird cultural transmission. I have no idea where it came from, that that was the voice or that was the the willk you had to put on the words. But it the cultural transmission of this is so good that in 1949, there was a Warner Brothers Looney Tunes short starring the goofy gophers along with an unnamed dog that was based on the stage and film actor John Barrymore, Patrick Stewart of his day. The title of this cartoon, if you're looking for it on Warner Brothers Max, is a ham in a roll.

And, the dog is tired of appearing in cartoons. It opens up with him tired of appearing in cartoons, and he goes home to study the words of Shakespeare. And, of course, upon arriving back at home, the dog finds that his home has been invaded by, the 2 goofy gophers who talk a little bit like this, and they talk very politely. And yes, dear, and yes, dear, and yes, dear. And so while he's reading Shakespeare, he's trying to

improve himself. There's various gags that occur in this Looney Tunes cartoon, this Looney Tunes short, as he reads through A Midsummer Night's Dream, Hamlet, Julius Caesar, Richard the third, and, of course, Romeo and Juliet. And the gags in the cartoon rely on literal interpretations of lines from those plays. By the way, the running time of this cartoon, 6 minutes and 47 seconds. In case some of you are of short attention span theater and think that TikTok began all

of that, it really didn't. This cartoon was directed by Robert McKimson and, of course, the the the great voice actor Mel Blanc, voice of the dog, the gophers, and, of course, red Hamlet, read Julius Caesar, read Richard the Third, and read Romeo and Juliet, all with the Shakespearean lilt like John Barrymore, by the way. This is the brilliance of the cartoon Looney Tunes.

Cultural transmission of high art via low comedy is something that is being goofed on in this in this episode, season 14 episode number 5, with the dog. And the dog himself even looks like John Barrymore, which is great. Shakespeare was trying to transmit culture as well, and so are we. We are in a cultural transmit. We're always trying to transmit culture. We're always trying to transmit civilization to each other.

And whether it's a dog in a looney tune short or a couple of gophers, by the way, he winds up at the end of the cartoon. The gophers defeat him, of course, And the gophers use a horse to kick the dog out of his house, after which the dog says, a horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse, and goes back to the studio where he decided he was going to go back to being a comedic actor. All in 6 minutes, all around the world, all 5 Shakespeare plays. Oh, and by the way, a little bit of classical

music in there as well. And it is a cartoon that works so well as a method of cultural transmission that my 7 year old who knows nothing about Shakespeare at all just got his dose of Shakespeare in about 6 minutes. I don't know what your familiarity is with Looney Tunes, Libby. I can all have no idea. But I watched a lot of Looney Tunes when I was a kid, and that's actually how I got into, like, opera, like Pagliacci. Yes. Oh,

yeah. From Bugs Bunny. I I got into freaking pagliacci from Bugs Bunny, because I was so curious as to what the music was and what the references were that I went back and researched it and tried to find it and figured this is how I got introduced to high art. One of the ways I got introduced to high art was through was through Warner Brothers efforts and amusing me for 5 to 6 minutes. Interesting. Just bang bang bang bang bang bang. And the gags

go so fast. Yeah. I I again, I have no idea what you're experiencing. What is your experience with the ludi tunes? Do you have the experience with the ludi tunes at all? It's on. That's all, folks. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. Yeah. I was actually just looking it up as you were speaking about it to look at it. But yeah. No. I don't, I don't have a lot of memory. My, my memory of cartoons on Saturday or Saturday entertainment was, like, Bill Cosby. Okay. Yeah. And

Scott Albert or Scott Albert. Yes. Yeah. I I'm interested in watching it. I was reading the, yeah, the overview. But tell me more. This is fascinating. Yeah. So I am Is this Saturday morning cartoons for you? Yes. So Okay. Yeah. So I was when I watched so I watched Looney Tunes at 2 there are 2 different times you could watch

Looney Tunes. So one time, you could watch Looney Tunes on, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday afternoons, between, like, 2 and, like, 4, on the old WB network before it turned into, like, the UPN, and then it turned into something else, or whatever. But the old WB network. So you can watch it then. But then you could also watch it on Saturday. You're right. And I watched it on Saturday on like ABC or something when I was living in the states that I was living

in when I was a kid. I can't remember what the it doesn't matter. All I know is I would get up like 8, 9 o'clock in the morning, click it on, and you could watch Looney Tunes for like an hour. And so I'd watch all these cartoons. Right? And I'd watch them in order. Right? Oh, I didn't know it was ordered at the time, but I'd watch all these cartoons. And then you watch them repeatedly over and over and over again and that's sort of how it kind of gets into your gets into your system.

So, you know, when the second generation of Looney Tunes cartoons, which came about in the seventies. So Looney Tunes was on, gosh, from the thirties until the sixties until the late sixties. And at first, it was Looney Tunes and then it transitioned into merry melodies, which is a whole other different kind of thing. And, of course, there are, Looney Tunes cartoons that are racially and ethnically insensitive because a lot of them were made during World War

2. But people were people were a lot more direct. Like, there's even things I see in some of the cartoons now that they show that were that are sort of not now, but that were made between the thirties and the sixties that you couldn't make the gags they make today. Like, you couldn't

have you I'll give you an example. You couldn't have Bugs Bunny running around with thick lips kissing, like, people and then, like, doing sort of the, like, African American, like, exaggerated sort of caricature, you couldn't you couldn't have that as as like a sight gag. Right? And it's a quick sight gag. And the way Looney Tunes is structured is there's an exciting event that occurs literally within the first minute. So you get the inciting event, you get the

introduction. Usually, with Looney Tunes, it'll it'll tell you what the inciting event is going to be in the title. So for instance, for this one, a ham and a roll, Like, that works on so many different levels because, you know, a ham is an overactor. A roll, r o l e, not r o l l. Right? So, you know, you've got, like, some you got, like, some messing around there. And that's the the brilliant thing with the guys on Looney Tunes, particularly, the ones that were directed

by, oh, what's his name? By, Robert McKimson. So Robert McKimson directed a whole bunch of Looney Tunes. He was born in 1910, and he died in 1977. And he wrote and directed shorts with, oh gosh, Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, and a brilliant illustrator. And so the animators and the illustrators and the directors have all worked together. And if they want to throw a gag in, they just would. And so all these guys were highly literate. So, like, they knew everything

from, like, Shakespeare Yeah. All the way down to, like, vaudeville. And so they would put all of this in Looney Tunes, but they're not gonna obviously, because they're doing it for children, they're not going to just cram everything in all at once. They're gonna pace it really well. So you're gonna have your inciting incident in the first minute, usually led in by your title

sequence. Then you're gonna have your music and your music's going to run through the entire, like, the remaining 5 minutes of the of the cartoon. And it's going to be musical cues. So sometimes the sight gags will go off of musical cues, like the Pagliacci one. The sight gags go off of the musical cues, but the music also plays in the background while Bugs Bunny is also playing the music game in the thing. And so it's working on,

like, multiple levels. But you're sitting there as a kid and all you know is your brain is just exploding with, like, sugar cereal. Yeah. And you're watching this. It's insane. And it's it's insane that you get to watch this. Then in the second minute or the 3rd the second the second minute through the 3rd minute into the into the 4th minute, you're going to have your gags. You're

going to have your plot. We're gonna have a bunch of money your daffy duck is getting into, like the one of the episodes we watched, one of the weekend's episodes my son and I watched the other day. Oh, gosh. I can't remember what the song was, but it's, I can't I don't remember the name of the song is, but, Daffy Duck is avoiding Porky Pig is the hunter. And Porky Pig tries to shoot him. And so, of course, he turns his butt around, and he's got a target on his butt with, like, his

dress that comes up. So, you know, cross dressing Daffy Duck, and he's going, and he, like, waves the dress around and, of course, wear a big missus. And the bullet goes, like, a whole bunch of different places, and then Davy Duck goes from having the bull's eye on his butt with the dress to going back to another site gag. Like, literally, it will happen like that. And so it goes so

fast. And you watch Looney Tunes, you watch the setup and the structure of it, and you watch the structure of the comedy, and you watch the kind of trickery he they're they're pulling in particular, like I said, McKimson along with Mel Blanc, and Mel Blanc would suggest, would suggest gags because he could do anything verbally, and could do anything with sound. And then, of course, you you only because you only have, like I said, you only have 6 to 7 minutes.

So they would do all these verbal layerings, and they come to a conclusion by the end, and then it goes, and you're done. Yeah. And you and it's almost when you're, like, a 9 year old kid and you've never seen anything like that before, it's almost like you're getting hit by a freight train. Yeah. It's kind of insane. I I love loony tunes. It's That's so I like fascinating history here, and then the

structure is really interesting too. Well and they did I will say Warner Brothers really allowed those animators like McKimson and others. Carl Stalling was another one. He did all the music. He was he was a genius with the music, but they would allow these guys to be the anti Walt Disney. They were literally, like, on the other side of Disney. So Disney was considered to be corporate and cultured,

and they're gonna do full length movies. So this was during Looney Looney Tunes was really popular during the time when Disney was doing Peter Pan and Snow White and Bambi and those Cinderella, you know, the big sort of classical films that we think of as the Disney classics. On the cinematic end, Looney Tunes was owning television, and they were owning movie shorts. And so you would see and that's how they started. You would see shorts in front of films first. Yeah. But then after that, they

transitioned to TV because TV was a much better medium for this. Right. Because you could just you could do, like, 4 cartoons in a row Yeah. In, like, an hour or in 20 minutes. Actually, in 20 minutes. You can do 4 cartoons in a row, and everybody could get paid.

So they were the anti Disney. As a matter of fact, almost to the point where they would have gags inside of the Looney Tunes cartoons that were anti Disney gags, and they eventually had to drop those because he was like, you don't stop this. Gonna sue you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because Walt wasn't Walt wasn't screwing around. But they knew sort of and they knew, of course, they knew all the Disney admin animators and all the Disney

animators do them, and so they would exchange gags. It was a whole it was a whole thing. This is fascinating. I had no idea. I thought Looney Tunes was, like, part of Disney. No. It was part of the it was part of the, what is considered to be the golden age of American animation, which, is by by the thirties to the seventies in this country, where you could you could literally build an entire media franchise off of cartoons for kids. Because

there was nothing on TV. Like, this is we and and, of course, we live in the backwash of all of this. But in in the thirties through the seventies, no one had any clue what to do with television. Yeah. Like, okay. You have this bandwidth. What do we put on this thing? So shows like, like my mom watched because my mom was a classic boomer. All of her generation watched Howdy Doody, particularly the older members of her generation. Well, Howdy Doody was entirely a creation of some serial

company. So the serial company came up with the show so they could sell cereal. Or the Tiffany Network. Right? The reason CBS is called the Tiffany Network is because Tiffany Glass created CBS to sell more Tiffany Glass. It's sort of an inverse for how we do media today. We don't do media like this today because of the Internet. So no one's no one is confused as to what to do with TikTok. Like, no one no one's

confused. They may be putting ridiculous stuff on there, but no one's confused as to what to do once that bandwidth opens. Well, back in the day, it was different. It was like, okay. What do we do with this bandwidth? So you could put on howdy doody. You could put on a man with a puppet and then run that next to a bunch of cartoons and then sell some sugary breakfast cereal, and now you're done. And that was all thought of as being kids' stuff. Well, you do have mainstream, like, media

that's not wait. 80, 90% funded by pharmaceuticals? Right. You do have that. Yes. You do have that. But that's, like, the modern equivalent. Right. Well, in This is fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in news didn't really come along as a function of TV until or not really. I would say come along. Didn't really kick in as a function of television until the fifties and the sixties. So you had, what was his name? Oh,

Brinkley and Hunt. Right? Like, those 2 guys, you know, that really sort of kicked off the idea that television could be a medium for news as well as a medium for kids entertainment, as well as a medium for westerns. Like the heyday of westerns in the United States, particularly TV westerns, was the 19 fifties, and the 19 sixties. And so if you were a kid in the fifties, you could watch like Rawhide. Like people

people forget this. Clint Eastwood, his entire career started on Rawhide on television in the 19 fifties. With the Spaghetti Western? I thought Spaghetti Westerns were in the theaters. Right? Yes. Spaghetti Westerns were in the theaters. Yes. And that was And the reason that news wasn't, that TV wasn't medium for news until fifties sixties was because people didn't have TV. You know, most people didn't have TVs in their homes, and most of it was through

radio? Correct. It was it was it was radio Yeah. Then print or print and then radio, depending upon which which debit which market you were in. But, I mean, you would you would live in a media market where you would be able to get, let's say, you had 5 news well, that's probably extensive. 3 newspapers, right, in a city, right, like Chicago. You'd have 3 newspapers printing up news 3 times a day. So you'd have a morning edition, a midday edition, and an evening edition. Forgot

about that. I knew, now that you say that I knew they had morning and evening. Yeah. How how quickly times change and things change. Like, I had some of that in from a high level awareness. Mhmm. But it is interesting, like, getting into the cultural trans you know, transmission, discussion, how quickly the modalities change Oh, yeah. Based on the advancements of technology. Mhmm. And, yeah, Midsummer Night's Dream, you know, was the ability to use comedy

to share that with chill yeah. It reached all levels. Right. Like, children through, through adults, the stories, and we all interpret it differently and, you know, based on where we are in our own evolution, but it's fun for everyone. Right? Right. And I think of that, like Pixar movie is the same thing. Like Mhmm. Like, it's as much fun to go to a Pixar movie as an adult as it is as a kid. Right. And do you think that the kids are gonna get, like, some of the innuendos,

but they don't. They have their whole a whole another level of understanding. Right. Yeah. Well, I think I was I was thinking the other day. Well, maybe not the other day, but I was thinking, I was thinking a while ago that it would be a real hoop. This is a business idea that anybody can take us to see this podcast, but it would be a real hoot to do 5 to 7 minute long animated shorts that are layered at that level that like Looney Tunes was layered at. But I

don't know number 1 that you do it. And I don't mean that the talent isn't there. And I don't mean that the gags aren't there. And I don't even mean that the comedy isn't there. I mean, and and probably the only place you'd be able to do it would be maybe Netflix or Hulu, maybe. But let's say let's say Hulu.

If you do the half hour no. No. No. Sorry. Not a half hour. If you did 6 to 7 minute or 5 to 7 minute long animated comedic shorts, and you banged out, like, a 100 of those in a week and distributed them on Hulu that were layered at the level that you got the layering back in the day of Looney Tunes with verbal gags, visual gags, wordplay in your window speed of animation music. I'm not saying the talent doesn't exist to do that. I believe the country is overflowing

with people talented enough to do that. I think the thing that kills that idea is the subject matter that you would have to cover and the way you would have to do it. Because too many feelings would get triggered. Oh, and and and by the way, triggered triggered so fast that they wouldn't even know they were triggered. Yeah. Because it goes up it goes so quickly.

But the case but case of No. That's something about it was upsetting. Right. I don't know what upset me, but something and then you have people go you have people cut it and put it on the Internet and slow it down and be like, that's where it is. You know? And you know them trying to the closest you will get to something that's this good, As good as Looney Tunes, I think, personally, and it's not for kids, which is really too bad, is robot chicken. The whole robot chicken show on, on,

on, Cartoon Network back in the day. I think that's as close as you get. And that was claymation. And the only reason Seth Green was Seth Green and his crazy people were able to get away with that was because it was claymation. But it hit everything. It did. It hit everything with the verbal gags, the sight gags, the visual Well, and so I feel. I'm not a big I'm not a big animation, you know, person,

but I see a lot of clips on South Park. Mhmm. Isn't that kind of in the same realm and, you know, as well as, I also am not a you know, who's the other what's the other one? The Simpsons that everyone loves? Oh, the Simpsons family guy. Yeah. So I think this I so here's here's my honest that's a great question. And my honest feedback on that or my honest answer to that is Stimson's

the even the Flintstones Yeah. Of the Jetsons back in the sixties, and seventies, and then Family Guy in the nineties Yeah. And then South Park in the late nineties all the way up to now. Those 5 cartoons would not exist without Looney Tunes. Right. So what they did was all 5 of those cartoons, what they did was they took the the the concept, the core concepts that were in Looney

Tunes, and they did exactly what I just did. Like, they pulled it apart and they went, okay, I don't wanna do this in a short context because it's too hard to sell advertising around this. Yeah. Matt Groening. Right? This is why he did The Simpsons as a half hour show. And I think it's re it was really to appeal to the advertiser television format. But now you see South Park doing movies that they're releasing on Paramount Plus Yeah. While they're

calling them movies. Right? But they're they're like 90 minute long cartoons with gags and everything else. Well, it's the same concept as Looney Tunes, it's just we've expanded the franchise out because streaming requires different things than television based advertising required. And so the the metrics of who gets paid and how for what work have all shifted around. And I think that's that's the other challenge other than just the other than just

the the people might get triggered part. The other challenge is how do you pay all those people to produce, you know, basically 5 to 7 minutes or short content. Yeah. That that's the piece. And with AI, you might be able to do that. You have the different platforms between, like, YouTube, YouTube Shorts and TikTok, neither of which I watch, but I know a lot of people, do, and they're really popular.

So it's more kind of the economics because I don't know that it's as much of the triggering now with the Overton window opening as much as it has. And you do see, you know, like South Park. Right. You know, being out there. But interesting. I I love thank you for sharing all this. This is really, really fun. I like learning. Well, I'm a I'm a sucker for I am. I'm a sucker for a I'm a sucker for a gag. I'm a sucker for a well

designed gag. And I'm even more of a sucker for a gag that's well designed and operates at multiple levels and is gonna get me to think a little bit deeper past just the gag itself. So, You know? Like, I'll watch I'll watch, 3 stooges, like, all day. I'll watch that kind of stuff all day. You know? Please. And most men watch You know what I mean? Yeah. I was gonna say I think that's more of a I I don't like to generalize, but I do think that's more of a male thing. Like, is it,

what's his I can't think of his name right now. The guy who was in lethal weapon. Oh, Mel Gibson? Mel Gibson. He loves, like, the, you know, the 3 the 3 stooges. Yeah. It's it's it's dumb whatever, or, you know, a fart gag. Right? Like like, the fart gun in, Despicable Me. Like, I I I do think that's funny. Yeah. I find that stuff funny. But clever, visually clever. And it's really the visual visual clever thing that I'm

looking for. Yeah. Visual cleverness. But then you compile it into music and gags and the words, the writing itself, when it's working on all of those levels, then you've got me. I mean, I'm suckered in. I'm I'm in. I'm in there. And and if it's not Yeah. So tell me how that relates back to Midsummer Night's Dream. So here's how this relates all back to A Midsummer Night's Dream. The Midsummer Night's In Midsummer Night's Dream, to

your point. And actually, you raised the point. Shakespeare was trying to transmit culture here. And I think cartoons, do transmit culture. They are cultural transmission tools. Right? Like memes. And this is why also I think you probably it's the third reason why you probably couldn't get this to happen today, a Looney Tunes kind of thing to happen today, because we all live in meme culture now. I can I can transmit multiple ideas in a meme of I don't know? Pick your fame

oh, oh, I'll pick a famous meme here. The the dog in the, in the house that's on fire and he's drinking in one panel, and then the next panel, it's like everything's fine. Right? He goes, oh, everything's fine here. Like, you can you can send that meme to somebody these days, and it operates at multiple levels Yeah. Inside of their experience. And then they can send it to somebody else. They can sit Yeah. So now we're contextualizing, and that's what Looney Tunes

did so brilliantly. And that, of course, when A Midsummer Night's Dream does, it contextualizes it for individuals so they can transmit it around. Now in the time of Shakespeare, they were transmitting those ideas around via purely language because you couldn't take the actors with you and do the visuals. But in our time, we can take the visuals, we can take the words. It's gonna be really interesting when memes can add music musical clips

to memes. That's going to be really interesting, because there's gonna be musical gags going on people's phones, like, all of the time. And you already started to see this with GIFs a little bit, you know, animated GIFs. But when you can put music on top of that thing, I'll forget it. Like, it's gonna be ridiculous. And it's that multiple levels that we've layered in to our culture how we transmit ideas. And it's become global, which is also awesome.

And so a meme, or an idea that works in a Western context can now work in a global context as well. A Midsummer Night's Dream kicks all of that off. That's my point with bringing up all of this. It kicks all of it off, and Looney Tunes and memes all tie into that, at a, at a amazing layered level. I'm doing it all with, like I said, low comedy and wordplay. So which, again, I I I appreciate it. Sounds good. Appreciate a good meme and a good comedy, for sure. Yes. Alright. Back to the book. We're

we got around the corner here. We talked to I've talked to I've rambled coherently about the movie twos. We might have to cut some of that. No. No. No. Oh, don't. That's really it's really good stuff. Back to the play, back to A Midsummer Night's Dream, the Folger Shakespeare Library version of A Midsummer Night's Dream. So let me go to act 3. And in act 3, scene 2, we're going to pick up with

well, with the king of the fairies. We're going to pick up with Oberon and Robin Goodfellow, where Hock or Robin Goodfellow, reports to Oberon about Titania and Bottom, the guy with the ass on his head. And then Demetrius is going to enter, and Oberon is going to find out that, well, well, fuck screwed up. And so we're going to figure out what happens when, well, when you don't do what you are supposed to do. Alright. Back to the book, back to the play, back to A Midsummer Night's Dream. Act

3, scene 2. Enter Oberon, king of the fairies. Oberon. I wonder if Titania be awake. Then what was it that next came into her eye, which she must dote on in extremity? Enter Robin Goodfellow. Here comes my messenger. How now, mad spirit? What night rule about this haunted crow? Robin. My mistress was a monster is in love, near to her close and concentrated bower

while she sleeps in her dull and sleeping hour. A crew of matches rude mechanicals, that work for bread upon Athenian stalls were met together to rehearse a play intended for great Theseus' nuptial day, the shallowest skin of that barren sore who Pyramus presented in their

sport pursuit had seen and entered in a break. When I did him at his advantage take, had asked noll, I fixed on his head, anon must be answered, and forth my mimic comes, when they him spy as wild geese that creeping fowler eye or russet patchychos manian sort, rising and clawing at the gun's report, thither themselves and madly sweep the sky,

let his sight away his fellows fly. And at our stand up here, Orinor, when falls, he murder cries, and help for Athens calls, Their senses thus weak, lost with their fears thus strong, made senseless things begin do them wrong. For briars and thorns at their apparel snatch. Some leaves, some hats, some yielders, all things catch. I led them on this distracted fear and left sweet Paramus translated there. When in that moment, so it came to pass, Titania wake and straightaway loved

an ass. Oberon, this falls out better than I could devise. But has thou yet latched the Athena's eyes with the love juice just as I bid thee do? Robin, I took him sleeping. That is finished too. And the Athenian woman by his side. That, when he waked, a force she must be eyed. Enter Demetrius and Hermaiah. Hermia, Oberon, stand close. This is the same Athenian. Robin, this is the woman, but not this the man. Then they step aside and then shenanigan. Shenanigans. As Puck has to undo what he did.

When we think about A Midsummer Night's Dream, when we think about Shakespeare's writing, and when we think about the power of how we can learn from this play as a leader, One of the big things that we have to take, I think, or several of them, one of the big things we have to take from this play is the idea that there are things that are floating around that we cannot see, like love and lust. And they are

powerful motivators for us. We've talked about motivators, with Libby before and how folks can be motivated by anger or motivated by pride. But people can also be motivated by love, Love of what they are doing, love of a show, like I was just talking about Looney Tunes, or even love of another person. Love is a many splendored thing, to paraphrase again from Shakespeare, and it is a thing that motivates us. We also need to fall in love with our

culture. We need to fall in love with the ways in which our culture is transmitted, whether that be through words or through visual means. And culture is one of the another one of those things that we cannot see. Culture is the handmaid of civilization. It walks hand in hand. If civilization were male culture would be female and they walk hand in hand creating all of us and turning us all into, well,

productive human beings. And then of course for leaders the last thing that they could take from A Midsummer Night's Dream is how to love a good gag, how how to actually loosen up and, laugh at things because there's more things that are humorous than there are things that are un humorous or that are tragic in this world. And even tragedy, by the way, can be turned sometimes into comedy. Not to dismiss the depth of the tragedy, but actually to elevate people around it so that they can

overcome it. As I round the corner here with Libby, what are your final thoughts on what leaders can grab from A Midsummer Night's Dream? One of your favorite Shakespeare plays. Actually, it's all about having Levitti in a, like, Levitti in in the workplace. I I, you know, I remember working very, very late nights. I was, you know, a consultant with the big four for many years, and there was nothing funnier than Harvey Balls at midnight.

You know, we all had, you know, boyfriends, girlfriends, spouses to go home to, but, like, there was nothing more funny at midnight than Harvey Balls. Mhmm. And, you know, it's always about, bringing in, you know, mischievousness or fun and not taking you know, when you're in the grind, when you have tight deadlines and, you know, and you believe passionately about what you're doing for your client and you want your team to be successful, never forget to have

fun. And you see that, like, with the special ops teams. Those guys give each other a hard time every single day. It's constant ribbing and riffing, but that's that releases pressure and tension, and it's fun. Don't forget the art of fun and stop taking things. I think results matter. Challenge matters. Like, don't it's not about passivity and not caring, but it's about being able to have fun in the in the moment. Yeah, in all

of life. And it's about what it really is always about love. Right? Always about love. If you love what you do, you never work a day in your life. I believe that that's that's probably one of the more overused motivational phrases, in entrepreneurship and in leadership, but it is true. The challenge is, of course, is in a world of option multiple options, high optionality, or not even high optionality, a lot of options, a lot of choices. How do you find what you love?

But once you find that thing, then you stick with it. Right? And you gotta have humor with it. You gotta have you gotta enjoy what you're doing. Gotta be able to ramble for, like, 20 minutes about Looney Tunes. Not enough not enough people like the the challenge. Like, find the love of solving new problems and the challenge that goes with that. Yeah. You know? And that, to me, is really about love because it's about helping wanting to elevate everyone. You know, rise the ocean. Yeah. If you ink

yeah. Raise the ocean, all boats will rise. Mhmm. You know, falling in love with solving problems. Right? Yes. Like, that is fun. It's hard. That's why a lot of people just sit back and and judge how someone, you know, solved a problem rather than do it. It's just like, yeah. Fuck with the challenge. Right. It's hard as he

heck. But that's fun, and too many people have, you know, I don't know what I think they think love of work, means art or, like, you know, soft stuff that's been intellectualized as, things that we should love. But Mhmm. Yeah. But what's the end result and being you know, and and loving that whole process and making sure that whole process works for everyone? We do there's so many landmines that we always end up tripping on, when you wanna say, you know, to let everyone be,

make sure something works for everyone. It's you know, there's gotta be tough love, and there's gotta be we know what our constraints are, and we can't be everything to

everyone. But, you know, doing your darndest to create an environment for everyone to thrive based on their different, yeah, wants and needs and skills, but, you know, providing, you know, being able to make tough decisions that may be uncomfortable for folks because you know that long term result is what matters and where you know, and and we're heading for. But too many too many people want the, yeah, want the satisfaction today, and they're not

willing to do the hard work. Fall in love with the outcomes of hard work. Yeah. Yeah. No. I I agree with that. How do we bring that back to you miss our ice cream? I think we'll leave it there. I think I think it's a combination for me. It's, not over index. This is where balance always comes in and thinking about how ecosystems require, you know, dark and light. Yeah. It requires good and bad, seriousness and fun. Mhmm. But also objective and

subjective. That's subjective. You know, so balancing an objective reality with an ephemeral one. You know? Allowing the dreams to be, but not over indexing too much on the dream world or over indexing too much on reality. On reality. No. Yeah. No. Yeah. I agree with that. No. Well, well, once again, I would like to thank Libby Younger for coming on the podcast today. This is always pleasure as usual.

And please go check out the older Shakespeare library version of A Midsummer Night's Dream and, fall in love with well, fall in love with Shakespeare. It's a challenge. It is a challenge. And if but if you're gonna be as challenging as you will, you will fall in love with. And with that, well, oh, we're out.