Connecting Humans to Business

How do I pronounce your name? Suzu. S-H-U-T-S-E. Suzu. Well, see that's all that's all good and well. Um but in our ignorant Caucasian city that I good that I that that I live in, um he that book is referred to Sun Zuk. You see. So I I can't I can I can't that's that's no good you see. Uh no worries. Uh Shuzu. Yeah, okay. Yes, let's go with let's go with Sue. Let's go with Sue.

We'll start from here. Well obviously we'll cut cut cut all that off. So thank you so much for jumping on and taking a few minutes to share some of your leadership experience with it. Thank you. It's my pleasure and thank you for inviting me. My pleasure. It's love lovely to have you. Now Can you share with the audience what is it that you do? What's w when we when you think about your your week upcoming and what what you're going to spend most of your time doing, what is it that you do?

So, if I were to sum it up in a witty way, I would say that what I do is really connecting humans. untuk perniagaan perniagaan. Perniagaan perniagaan perniagaan perniagaan. Tapi bagaimana kita menghubungkan kecuali humana dengan perniagaan? Hari ini kita juga mempunyai AI dan teknologi. So you have the business, the human and the AI, and I focus a lot about the human part.

Wow. Very interesting. I'm looking forward to diving into that. Now now this is something I often say to my guests. I I've I have a question. Uh When you were twelve and someone said to you, What are you gonna be when you grow up? That was not your Mm. Not tell me how did you find yourself being where you are, doing what you're doing? Yeah. Um, in fact it was quite close. It's just uh it it took a another angle. When I was twelve I wanted to be a doctor. I always wanted to be a doctor.

Why? Because I like the title for one, right? Who doesn't want that title, right? The second one is I like helping. So, when I went to, I mean, of course, when I continued my study, but I wasn't doing a while about my study. And when I was in the year where the examination that we have to take to determine where do we go in UDC. I did fairly okay and it gets me into the door to the top unity in Malaysia that I want to get.

So I managed to get it through the door, but I have to choose the cost that I never thought that I Which is psychology. So I did psychology. I want to go into economics. I want to go into business, but I have to choose psychology to be able to get into the door of the So I did that and I take a elective papers on economic So at the end of the day I came out from the university having psychology and economy.

And I started my work and it totally brings me to a trajectory of areas that I absolutely enjoy in the last probably two plus decades, which is human in the economy world. I think that's fascinating. And what a what a beautiful journey. And it w I love that it it it uh I was actually um watching a testimonial from a client of ours. Um part of we're doing some leadership development and part of that had um uh the behavioural profiling stuff that that that we have and it was so funny he starts off

with you know I had absolutely no interest in this. I have no interest in people or behaviors. I just am about the outcomes and and you know he said but then it changed my life. It changed how I work with it's changed relationship with with my wife and my family and my work. And it's amazing, right? And and and you you you had you had a had a um a similar journey where you were focused on a particular lens.

But you but the the the amazing thing is when the different domains join, uh and then you can add more depth and perspective by by joining domains together. Yeah. That's very interesting. And and so um and the the

Are you are you interested in the behavioral economics as well? Yes, definitely. All my work uh it's relating to behavioral economics either at individual level or at the corporation, at the MNC's level. Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. Human beings are interesting creatures, aren't they?

Yeah, and the the unique thing the unique thing is that through, you know, industrializations and AIs and technology, right, a lot of chings have changed, right? The models of business, models of the way how we work, right, future work and all those stuff, right? But Interestingly, human human behavioral economics relating to human that has not changed. For thousands of years. That has not changed. What motivates us? What drives us? What makes us lazy? That has not changed.

Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? We're more more risk averse than upside upside driven, right? Yeah. Yeah. I I I guess that's what what what what kept us alive when we were the the, you know, slow, inefficient, hungry, non-dangerous creatures. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very very interesting. And so and so You gave me a really interesting answer in terms of um your your you connect um people and business. Mm-hmm. Um can you can you give me an example of

a little bit more more more context. So so um people, business and and AI, um so you're very technology oriented, commercially oriented, uh and I understand human human behavior. So if I was going to bring you in to to to consult to us, what's what's a common type of programme that I'd bring you in

Yeah. Uh uh at this moment a lot of uh organizations in Malaysia, particularly in the last slide. uh one half years or so, I'm beginning to have a lot of requests from my clients, particularly helping their middle management. to start to have an ecosystem thinking and also business acumen, financial account, financial literacy, to the way how they plan and execute their operation, they do the operation.

Now, these areas of skillset and mindset, when we talk about having an ecosystem, understanding of a business, right internal external factors and and stuff like that and also to to be really good in managing uh stakeholders managing the different acumen right from business to finance to human beings. In the past, these were the skill set required and expected at the senior and top management level.

But increasingly, with AI taking over the technical stuff, the data, the logic stuff, humans role focus a lot more on connecting. connecting solutions from human being, creating solutions for human, that's human connection. Right. And then managing stakeholders, influencing either your cross-departmental or upward, downward. It's a lot of human behavior, human, the non-logical aspects of decision.

Now, if you were to look back to education, institutionalization of education started about 400 years ago when industrialization started. Education forces humans to focus on data, logics, facts, and numbers. And it increasingly took away the elements of human beings, emotions, the non- the conversations, the the the the words behind the words, you know, the meaning behind the words, the unspoken words.

All right. Now, if we were to look back before that, education was about arts, was about athletics, was about farming, was about hunting, right, was about nurturing. Which actually requires beyond the facts and a lot of insights, observations, and pivoting according to what is happening, according to our surrounding or movement. But logics boxed us in and AI now unboxed us again. So it gets really interesting today.

Oh, I love that. I love that. And so and so what so what what you're saying is that the AI can do can follow the rules, can can do the the coding and processing and and and all those things and the humans get back to focusing on the human relationships and influence. Wow. Yeah. Human relationships, influence and a lot about the right time. When is the right timing to say what or not to say what? Ah, judgment, yes. Yes. Yes, yes, I love that.

So so tha that's really interesting work and you're you're you're you're having a having I I love that you're bringing that focus is I a lot of people bring up AI when they're when they're talking to me and all the all the the the companies that my company works with.

are obviously all adopting AI and we have a lot of actually AI in our adoption. Ours is very human-centered AI. Um so it's very much a you're you're speaking my speaking my my my language. Um the thing I that I love about it most is that most people that I talk to uh are very much focused on Uh the replacing of

function, um, um, you know, the uh id identifying w uh what can be automated, which is great, got no no got got no issue with that. Um, but they're still really consumed by that step of the process. And they refer to, oh, you know, so human beings can do more human stuff or do the high value stuff or whatever. But it's always a very kind of vague throwaway that I feel like they they think they should say that so they don't sound like it's it's politically correct.

to to to to make it to to not sound like you're you're you're trying to reduce your your your head count. But you're actually focused on the step two. Right? Um and I I think I think that's amazing. You've got some got some some s um clarity around around um helping organizations in a more complete and and and considered way. I think it's amazing. So can you share with me if you if you thought back over your career today.

Uh, we talk about a thing called uh wisdom earn. Can you share something where, you know, you you might have realized that you were having a having a series of conversations with a person and you didn't didn't necessarily maybe understand their communication style? And you realise afterwards that

You've been conversationally punching them in the face and you think, Oh my goodness, if only I'd known that I could have adapted my m my my approach. Have you got something like that where we we've got a had a one's young and naive not doubt not young. Well this this happens like See that would be about eight years ago.

Yeah, eight years ago when I was uh head of uh I was uh global head for a conglomerate in Malaysia. Oh here. I I thoug I thought eight years ago you must have been about twelve, but Thank you for that. Yeah, so so yeah, I was in this uh organization, huge organizations and I was brought in to create some you know, uh change the way how they look at succession planning for all the our all their

And and I did that in a very fast way. I mean it's all logics, right? So and I had a great team. So we put everything in together very fast. It's where we have a HIS system and at the last mile Apa yang saya harapkan kepada organisasi adalah, let's open the modules in the HR, the Human Resources System. Open the module where individual employees, they are able to plan their development plan.

Right. And I have a huge argument with the chief human resource group chief human resource officer and his argument was what if we were to open that up and people went through their development and they are ready to be promoted and there was no opening in the organization I was like, come on. First thing, we are organisations of 300, about 120 to 200 over employees. White collar probably, executive level probably like what, 20 over 1,000. in across a few countries and you are afraid of that.

And the next thing is that you are developing human, not necessarily for the organisation. I mean, of course, if you can, we want to absorb them, we want to leverage on them. But if not, They could go to another organization, they could be our business partners, they they would have good brand names about us, right? So I was arguing on the fact, and eventually it came to a stage where I have to exist.

Sorry, I I w just just for one second. I he I'm sure you've seen the meme around which which most commonly is um CEO says to CFO, we need to do we we need to develop our people and this and the CFO says, Well what if we develop them and they leave? And the CEO is like, Well, what if we don't develop them and and they stay? Right? Now that's supposed to be um

a meme and, you know, stereotyping the bean counter number cruncher job role. Not the not the HR director job roll. This is this is this is crazy. Precisely. And I couldn't understand at all. And I was young and naive and was just looking at the logics and keep arguing a bit on that. And uh but on the hindsight, after I left after a few years, when I think back, I said, My God, I missed the complete conversation.

It is something else that he is concerned about that I didn't ask. What are you exactly? So uh that's a that's a that's a keen insight. It's it's fascinating, isn't it? About you know, with the opportunity to to reflect. Yeah. But we don't realise until later, so often. So often. And ha ha have you theorized what that Fear or concern may have actually been?

Um, I don't really know what is his major concern. Yeah, so I never really get a chance to eventually sit down and find out, you know. So but That episode has taught me so much in the area of my work. I do a lot of uh you know, change management. And on top of the logics and the organization process, change process, you know, bell curve, the change curve and everything else, most importantly, it's the conversations, the unspoken conversations.

Yeah, the and and how do we know it? The triggers often come from the feelings. What are the feelings behind the word? And once we are able to identify that, we are able to dig down further into the conversations before even land a agreement.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so and so the the conversations then become the the importance is having the psychological safety or the trust in in the conversation to be able to create that open dialogue. Um and our our our our research recently has shown us that um the the SINGLE Strongest uh influencing characteristic on um uh engagement and trust is actually rapport. Right. So if you don't build rapport first, there is no connection.

Um and and the the the neuroscience shares that the um rapport creates a whole range of of um r um really significant um chemistry uh that that could that creates uh the the the click be between the people. Um um and so yeah, do you do you have any any strategies for how to create the relationship with your clients, um, to be able to have that ask the question. Um And and so you don't miss that opportunity now? Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. I mean in any new relationship.

When I have this mantra, I always say that if any meetings with a new relationship, if the other parties say more than you, you already win that rapport. Ah, lovely. Lovely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So and that is very evidence based as well. That's awesome. Yep. Yep. It's it's it's a lot about us being more interested in that person. Asking questions and allowing them to share.

I've been in meetings where I remember there was one network meeting that I was at and I met this somebody that I hadn't met before. And in that conversation I think he spoke like ninety percent of the time and after that he said, Wow, you are such a good conversationalist I was like But it was good. I make a friend out of it, you know. Well yeah, yeah, uh absolutely because people people um

feel connected and they feel like you care if they feel heard. Um and it's such a such a busy world that we're in that when you create the opportunity for people to feel heard, um, you become very special to them and there is a trust there. Yeah. Yeah.

That's fascinating. It's fascinating. So can can you um uh you've you've got you've got such great uh insight and um and and and reflection. Can you share with me a time where you saw an opportunity to help either a leader or a team on their journey. Hm. I would probably share the latest uh I just completed a nine month project with a investor services uh company. They went through um international restructuring, closed down Hong Kong office.

And then there was a change of some workflow in the France and Malaysia and I was with the Malaysia team uh with the people manager for nine months, um about hundred of them, and we went through batches of uh group coaching. and each batch went went through about seven sessions of coaching. One of the conversations that I I felt it really stood up was I mean of course despite the different culture, ethnic ways of working,

And of course, some jobs from Lux gonna come to Malaysia, become a business center, and then they're gonna lose their job. No, then why would they even collaborate with you and transfer those jobs, right? So So we had a conversation on, you know, yes, the trust, the psychological safety and stuff like that. And I noticed that one of the things that hold individuals back is perceptions towards manipulations, uh, towards politicking, towards inner circle. So now these are negative words, right?

These are these are which words? Yeah. Uh words like when we saw someone who is politic Someone is you know nose browsing or trying to polishing shoes, stuff like that, right? No, and ask the ask us the participants. What about McDonald that has toy in the kids' meal? What are they trying to do? Right. And and obviously obviously um create a positive emotional c uh connection to the to the to the brand, right? Um and to influence the kids to tell mum and dad, can we go back?

So are they influencing or are they manipulating? Oh that's a very good question. That's a very good question. So no, it is the perceptions that we have towards certain words, right? And we say when we think that it is if we we hold it as negative, we will we will avoid. Okay, so I've come across individuals at senior or mid middle management level who got stuck there because their conversation is I don't want to play policy.

And I said, what is the difference between politicking and networking and influencing and building repo? Now, let's not cross the moral line, the ethical line, we don't cross that. Okay, but other than that, when it is someone else who did something trying to gain favor, we will use the negative words. Like politicing manipulation, right? Right, polishing shoes and everything else, right? But when you are doing it,

You will use like, I'm trying to gain buy in, I'm trying to gain influence, you know, be in the inner circle. What does that mean? So, very often, psychologically, when we associate a certain behaviour negatively, we actually stop ourselves from moving beyond it. Okay, so we are still doing the same thing. The situation is still the same. It's the way how we change our perception that actually changed the result. Absolutely. Interesting, right?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So so yeah, so when when you see something um through a negative frame, um it it that creates a blocker because you don't want to p participate in in that in that behaviour that you're looking down your nose at, you know, for another differ different term. Um and so then that's that's a that's a uh a progress blocker. So that's that's fascinating. I I love the way that you're that you're positioning that. If you if you um Um

I've just I've my m my brain keeps joining back to the fixed and and growth mindset stuff, right? Where really what that's creating is a fixed mindset on progressing positively inside the organization. Right, because what you see is the reasons not to and the and the things stopping you uh as as opposed to seeing this great opportunity with you know, the change or growth or whatever it is that's that's uh happening. Um and really it's and it also reminds me of that.

Well I find very strange, um um negative associ connotation that people have with sales. I've I f I find it fascinating. I I I it in you know, the way I see these things, if you are talking about sales. Uhhuh. There is nothing that is that is you know, even remotely sustainable that is not win win. Right? And if you're trying to help people um and that also happens to be good for you too, what's the problem?

Yeah. It's there there seems to me is this this this strange connotation around um it's um at somebody else's expense. I really think it's the same thing as what you're talking about there. If you're being a constructive, positive um you know, creative con contributor. And that puts you in a good light and you build relationships and build build build build influence and build networks, then you're being part of this part of the part of the solution.

If you're choosing to withdraw, then it's actually a lose-lose. You're being paid by the organization and you're choosing not to bring your bill. Yeah. Not to be the most constructive, right? And and and yet simultaneously they've got this this lens that says if I bring my best, um, the most positive, I'm doing something untoward. So human beings are fascinating creatures, aren't they?

Yep. And the reason is also because we tend to look at things by by compartment, you know, by a standalone elements by itself. For example sales, right? If I were not selling, I would not get. But what if if you are not selling but still being able to attract clients? Right. So it's a lot of you know most of the time when we have conversations, we will have like if this or that. What about if this and that? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I love that.

I did i in that context with the people of the story that you were sharing before we um um did they

Change their their approach? Do you know? Did you did you get through? Yeah. Yep, yep. I mean this is just one element. There are a few other key elements like for example focusing on areas that you can control and you can influence. And and there will be elements like for example certain decision from the top management. You can't change that, right? So if there are areas that you can't change, what do you

You still have to learn and find ways to live with it, like COVID happens, right? We have to learn ways to live around it, right? So when they begin to realize that they also begin to look at okay, let's let's not focus and stress over the areas that I can't be in control and keep complaining about, but let me focus on areas that I can.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So and with all other elements of leadership, what interestingly that we have seen is we begin to see collaborations between the East and West. And even though some of the West are going to lose their job. Yeah. And it come back to really acknowledging what they are going through, having conversations beyond the work, and let's talk about also their fear.

And what's their preparation? You might not have answer for them, but it's really having that space of listening and acknowledging what they are going through. Yeah. So we begin to see teams beginning to to gain, buy in, work more closely, uh, with counterparts from different uh countries.

Yeah, nice. I I think I think with your um guidance uh there, I think you will you will help people create really meaningful bonds and create create um working relationships that are much more productive and constructive. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. We have we have to watch the time. I can talk to you all day. This is so much fun. Can would would would you mind sharing with me? If you got out your your your crystal ball and you had a you had a look and you got perfectly clear.

What do you see in the next twelve months? You can talk about it from your personal perspective for your your life, um, your your business life or from the world at large. What's what's coming what's coming in the next twelve months? Okay. I'm gonna give you something. Was given a crystal ball or or the way of looking at a crystal ball when I was 23, 22 years old. Someone asked me these questions. What is your crystal ball 10 years down the road?

And ever since then I keep planning ten years ahead. So ten years ahead is division, right? It's like where do you get want to get to work? And then you work backwards the next 12 months. What I need to focus on that it get closer to that 10 years. I just wrote two pieces of this in my link in uh uh linking post, right, last week and this week. Yeah, and I talk about the differences psychological. Right.

Now coming back to my crystal ball, um so in my LinkedIn as you mentioned that um I've actually three things I'm working on. So I have the corporate uh client where I work with them on business strategy and also AI transformation. And I collaborate with also teams of uh AI builder for to bring solutions to my clients whenever there there are requests.

and then there's this piece that's called the final niche now what happened is a lot of individuals especially career holder people with jobs they are holding on to their jobs today Why? Because of the changes in the world and there is always this notion now when you know if you are 40 or even like 35 you lose your job today it's quite difficult to get back into another job.

Okay, so that's where Find Your Niche comes in. Because a lot of people are also looking at, I want to be with, where do I be with, how do I be with, where are my niche? Okay, and that's how this Find Your Niche came about two years. I think I think that's that's that's awesome. And I I do know something I the thing I like When I was listening to you talking about the people clinging onto their job.

I was I was you know the the the inner voice was saying that it's such a a um scarcity mindset that does not lead you to a to to a good place. Right. Um um trying to protect and hold on to what was um and what is Is never the good outcome. And so I love that what you're doing is helping people find their um uh their and I know you use the word niche, but um find there's a there's a different word that I want to use. Um Uh I'm gonna say find a thing that fills their tank.

Right. Sometimes we get a bit distracted on purpose and those things and I'm I'm all about that. Um but sometimes people aren't able to get clear on that at the particular moment that you would like to coach'em um coach them there. But if you but people can I think much more likely to do what you're guiding them to to to do, which is to to find that thing that they want to move toward, right? Their their you know, their their strengths or their niche or the things that that energizes them.

I think that's such a such a great gift that you're giving to people at that time of need. Thank you, thank you. There are a lot of outcry in this area today.

Yeah, and and in a very short, you know, uh summary if I can just guide whoever that's listening into this, right? It's very similar to the concepts of uh Japanese concept it's called ikigai. I K I G A I. It's basically every one of us will have things that we are really good at doing based on our experiences, right? And areas that we are we love doing. But don't just stop there. You also have to focus on what so what problems are you solving for the world that they are willing to pay.

All right. So then you really find that fulfillment of you know enjoy. Yes, you are doing the work every day, but it's areas that you are really good at and you are passionate about and also areas that put food on the table. We cannot forget that. Okay. Yeah. So that balance must come. And that balance has always been happening already in the corporate world. But of course it has its own corporate juggernaut.

Uh yeah. So so so what it also means is that these elements, especially the external factors, right, the element keep changing. Right. So we have to continue to evolve and adjust and add on to our insights. What other skill set we need to add on? It's not a completely different technical skill. Your insight still stays. Your insights, your years of experience, your wisdom, that still stays. But the execution methods could change. Now I have AI to execute for me, for example.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Um Yeah, that's um I love I love the way you the that the way you you frame that and take the people um through through that lens. It's staying staying um true to yourself and the execution is what changes, right? That's um um and obviously, like you say, um put put food on the table at the same time.

Um, yeah, that's that's um super good. Now there's an pardon me, sorry. Uh is there just before we we we we wrap up, because it it is that time, is there anything that you would would would like to share or add? Yeah, I would like to ask...

your perspective and your view. I mean, what's happening in Australia? What is what is driving or what is uh you know, uh workers in Australia are passionate or fearful about today the the many changes that's happening. I think that that's a very good question. I think it depends on the segment that that you're in, uh, to be honest. Um To a large extent, I think Australia is relatively complacent. Um if you want a want one an an honest answer. I think um You know, you talk to...

taxi drivers and they'll they'll tell you that there's never gonna be such thing as a self driving car, you know. Um and um You know, uh I know people are enrolling in law degrees currently, you know, young young people leaving school are are enrolling in law degrees. I clearly I don't think that's a that's a high payoff choice. Um so yeah, I I I think we're uh to a large extent we're an early adopter country, uh but we uh have such a

a lucky, stable um economy and country that I don't think I think people are complacent. I don't think they they think there's that much change coming. I think um many people um Uh I uh I think I think the the travel patterns um that have fewer people in the world going to America are reflected here as well. I see a lot of people

choosing to hold holiday in Japan or do their exchange to Europe or or or whatever it might be. And previously they they, you know, would have would have moved uh gone over there. Um so there there is some some you know, discomfort around um international politics. But I think Lar like

Depending as I said, s it is somewhat sector depend dependent, but in general, um I think we're pretty complacent and think we're the lucky country and things will be the same tomorrow as it were today. Um I don't quite quite follow that school of thought, but I think that's probably the most common. Mm. Yeah. If um big picture our economy is very um agricultural, um mining, uh and to a certain extent tourism. Um and um those three are um

foreseeably relatively stable. Of o obviously the climate makes makes agriculture you know, gives ag agriculture its ch its challenges, but um um we're not as uh l uh large amounts of our economy are lo are less likely to be d dis disrupted by AI than some other economy. Um I guess is is what the the the point I'm trying to draw out there. Um But um yeah, I personally think there's a lot of there is a lot of disruption coming. Um and um

Um it's important to stay uh curious and um um uh be a be a lifelong learner and and do exactly the things that you're articulating, you know. Um Yeah. Yeah.

Good to know that. Um just looking at like the how you know humanity has evolved through the industrial age and stuff, right? But at the same time we also have countries that are still very much um elementary agriculture and even we even have people who are still staying in the Amazon jungle, right, in their own way that No electricity, no technology up to today.

Right. And then if we were to look at how AI are transforming and, you know, replacing yes, AI is replacing a lot of jobs and if you go to go to China and Shanghai you see like taxis are no longer taxi dri taxi driver no have no jobs already, right? So the next question is where would human being goes to?

If they were to continue staying there, they probably yeah, they they don't have a job, but things are expensive, they probably would not be able to survive, right? But in the world, in the whole globe, there are still areas that still need their skill set right still need you know what they can do and still earn money

So I don't have the answer, right? I really don't have the answer. But we are n we we we can't be looking at technology and the impact of technology just at a s a certain segment and a certain location globally. Yeah, if you were to look at entire entirety of the whole globes and human you know where we are, I think there are still a lot of there are still a lot of greens in on earth actually. Right? Yeah. So I don't know. It's it's it's a history in in the in the change. It's a history in

It it is a fascinating moment. And it's a uh it's an interesting lens that you've got there if you you know think it th uh I know a lot of the Um a lot of the focus on the jobs that will be displaced are The focus is around n uh knowledge worker and process at the end of the day. Um, you know, software coding, um, and then all of the uh large amounts of what we consider to be the profession.

Um and um in terms of population global global population percentage, it's probably not actually that high. Um, if we you know, is is i is reality. If you think about, you know, m um uh going through the I don't know, whatever it is, uh hundred and eighty million people or something rather in Vietnam, right, as as an example. Um

There's not there's not that many towers of people doing those jobs that that are gonna be automated, you know, so it's a it's a it's an interesting in interesting lens, interesting lens indeed. Um And yeah, I don't I don't I haven't I haven't done done the math on that, but I'm gonna go go and d do some research. I think I think um there's there's

A lot of the people that are in those bubbles are um we're all primed, right, to to see the world through our own our our our own lens and the things we've just been influenced by and there's probably a large amount of that going on. Um You know, when you look through that lens. Wow. This has been a this has been a a very thought provoking and thoroughly enjoyable conversation. Thank you so much.

And thank you again for this space to speak. Yeah. No, it's absolutely literally an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much and we will we'll talk again. Yeah. Okay. Thank you.