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Okay, so welcome to episode five of the Leadership Zoomcast. And uh thank you ever so much for all the great feedback we've been getting over the last um week since we put episode four up. And we've just been amazed by the following and the feedback. We actually got well over a hundred views on one of the videos the other day, which we were absolutely um overwhelmed by. So we're delighted it's it's about value in and you're you're getting some value out of this and it's helping you.
Um Albert, how are you doing this week?
I'm good, I'm not bad actually. Yeah, I was uh I was enjoying jet washing the driveway this morning. It's amazing what you think about when you're jet washing a driveway, right? So I've got lots of stuff that I've captured in my mind for another time now. Not for now, but we can talk about it later.
And how are you feeling? Are you excited about all the followings we're getting and all the feedback?
Oh man, it's honestly it's absolutely great. So I think, as you said, right, we've had some good numbers. Um, I think when if I look at the link, the LinkedIn post that I did, I was getting like 1200, 1400. Episode four last week, difficult situations. This morning we were looking at 7,600 views. Wow. I don't know who's viewing us, guys, but if we're helping people and it's adding value for you and it's answering questions for you, fantastic. That's great.
And it and it looks to me like we've been zoomed on today.
So who have we been zoomed on by? Listen, so guys, Neil did say last week we were going to invite a guest along. Um, and we're really, really privileged to have with us today. We've got Jean McCaskell. So Jean and I worked together, oh gosh, for probably 15 years now. Neil, Jean and I have worked together for something like 10, 12 years now. Um, so I don't go into all the history of how we work together. Maybe Jean and I can tell you about that some other time.
But really glad to invite Jean along. Jean's title as it stands right now is Conscious Leaders and Teams Consultant. Um, so Jean, great to have you with us. How are you? Welcome.
I am very well, and I'm so honoured to be part of the conversation. I have been fascinated watching you guys just start a really interesting conversation about leadership and without any sense of, well, here's the perfect formula, but just talking about it and getting real. And I suspect that's what people are enjoying is the fact that there's no perfect or easy answer, but let's at least talk about it. So lovely that you've done that.
I would of course prefer if it was a WebEx cast, but you know what? I'm gonna set aside, I'm gonna set aside my Cisco um hat for today. But yeah, it's lovely that you're having that discussion. I think it's brilliant.
Well, if you have a WebEx, if you have a WebEx cast, Neil, we'll be happy to join as guests, right?
Yeah, of course, yeah. We'll powder ourselves up and come on any camera, you know, we don't mind. Um, but no, Gene, I really, really appreciate you uh investing the time to be here and and and help our audience with the thought process around around leadership.
So look, I'm gonna shoot in with a straight straight in with a question because I know you spend a lot of time working with leaders, you spend a lot of time working with teams, uh and over the years, probably hundreds and hundreds of them. I guess what would be really helpful for people to hear is what do you what do you think are two or three things that great leaders do really well?
Yeah, you know what, we're always looking for the secret sauce, aren't we? And I think regardless of what industry, what context, um, there's three things that I think always jump out at me. I think the first one is being human. Um, I mean, I think one of the the one of the difficult things I hear is when someone says, I'm gonna try and be more authentic. And you can't die to be authentic. We're kind of we're at we're all human, regardless of where we're working.
So I think that connecting and just creating an open sense of being humans one, and paying attention, I think this is a real biggie. Um, and I did, you know, listening is one of the ways to pay attention, without doubt, and and listening to understand is really big. And I think as a leader, paying attention to what obstacles you need to remove for for your team, because a big part I think of leadership is how do you help your team just get on with it?
Let them do what they do brilliantly and get out of their way and take things out of their way. So being human, paying attention to what's needed by your team, and I think the last one is self-awareness. Um, if you as a leader understand the impact that you have, both positively and negatively, what a gift that is. I mean, it and and it's incredible how little time we will often dedicate to that.
And this isn't about going into a three-week retreat and um you know, reflect it, it's about day-to-day having that self-awareness. What kind of form am I in today? What what kind of energy am I gonna bring to the team? So humanity, attention, and self-awareness.
So I didn't even know you had a dog. You got a dog?
I and she and she clearly does not buy into my principles because she's just walked out of my office in disgust. You might have heard that.
So, Jane, this is gonna sound like a really, really strange question. And it sounds like is it just me thinking about it? But that how does a leader be more human?
Ah, that do you know what? I think that's a great question because I think it varies. I we're all come so different as humans, and I think the minute you try and be human the way someone else is, it's like trying to walk in someone else's shoes that don't fit you.
Yes.
So I think being human for me is not being in a role, not not being a vice president or a sales leader or an engineering leader, but just I I'm Neil, I'm Albert, and absolutely you have a mission and a goal as a leader, but start with the human, start with the hey, I might not have all the answers, but I'm open to listening, or start with the sharing of experiences.
That for me, human starts with knowing yourself, but also just showing up without any um what's the word I'm looking for here, without any kind of armor or cover. I think that's another big part of it, and that's where vulnerability comes into it.
Interesting. So, Albert, do you need how do you think about being a human when you're being a leader?
But I'm just thinking about where you're human, right? Because despite what you say, there are times that I as a leader, you do need to have your uniform, you do need to have your presentation of being a VP, right? As an example. Um so I guess we're talking about in certain situations, drop your guard, be vulnerable, that's okay. What we're not saying is stop being the role you are being, guys, as the leader of the business when you're representing the business in other situations, right?
Um, but by being human now more than ever, it's critical that customers find accurate information about your business. Local works by Yahoo Small Business makes it easy to add, edit, and publish business information across 70 plus local directories from a single dashboard. Ensure your business is found with local works and save 10% today by using code LW Podcast. Visit yahoo small business.com slash local to find out more.
Okay, so welcome to episode five of the leadership zoomcast. And uh thank you ever so much for all the great feedback we've been getting over the last um week since we put episode four up. And we've just been amazed by the following and the feedback. We actually got well over a hundred views on one of the videos the other day, which we were absolutely um overwhelmed by. So we're delighted it's it's value in and you're you're getting some value out of this and it's helping you.
Um Albert, how are you doing this week?
I'm good, I'm not bad actually. Yeah, I was uh I was enjoying jet washing the driveway this morning. It's amazing what you think about when you're jet washing a driveway, right? So I've got the stuff that I've captured in my mind for another time. Not for now, but we can talk about it later.
And how are you feeling? Are you excited about all the followings we're getting and all the feedback we're gonna do?
Oh man, it's honestly it's absolutely great. So I think, as you said, right, we've had some good numbers. Um, I think when if I look at the link, the LinkedIn post that I did, I was getting like 1200, 1400. Episode four last week, difficult situations. This morning we were looking at 7,600 views. Wow. I don't know who's viewing us, guys, but if we're helping people and it's adding value for you and it's answering questions for you, fantastic. That's great.
And it and it looks to me like we've been zoomed on today.
So who have we been zoomed on by? Listen, so guys, Neil did say last week we were going to invite a guest along. Um, and we're really, really privileged to have with us today. We've got Jean McCaskell. So Jean and I worked together, oh gosh, for probably 15 years now. Neil, Jean and I have worked together for something like 10, 12 years now. Um, so I don't go into all the history of how we work together. Maybe Jean and I can tell you about that some other time.
But really glad to invite Jean along. Jean's title as it stands right now is Conscious Leaders and Teams Consultant. Um, so Jean, great to have you with us. How are you? Welcome.
I am very well, and I'm so honoured to be part of the conversation. I have been fascinated watching you guys just start a really interesting conversation about leadership and without any sense of, well, here's the perfect formula, but just talking about it and getting real. And I suspect that's what people are enjoying is the fact that there's no perfect or easy answer, but let's at least talk about it. So lovely that you've done that.
I would, of course, prefer if it was a WebEx cast, but you know what? I'm gonna sit aside, I'm gonna set aside my Cisco um hat for today. But yeah, it's lovely that you're having that discussion. I think it's brilliant.
Well, if you have a WebEx, if you have a WebEx cast, we'll be happy to join as guests, right?
Yeah, of course, yeah. We'll powder ourselves up and come on any camera, you know, we don't mind. Um, but no, Gin, I really, really appreciate you uh investing the time to be here and and and help our audience with the thought process around around leadership.
So look, I'm gonna shoot in with a straight straight in with a question because I know you spend a lot of time working with leaders, you spend a lot of time working with teams, uh, and over the years, probably hundreds and hundreds of them. I guess what would be really helpful for people to hear is what do you what do you think are two or three things that great leaders do really well?
Yeah, you know what, we're always looking for the secret sauce, aren't we? And I think regardless of what industry, what context, um, there's three things that I think always jump out at me. I think the first one is being human. Um, I mean, I think one of the the one of the the difficult things I hear is when someone says, I'm gonna try and be more authentic. And you can't lie to be authentic. We're human, we're at we're all human, regardless of where we're working.
So I think that connecting and just creating an open sense of being humans, one, and paying attention, I think this is a real biggie. Um and I did, you know, listening is one of the ways to pay attention, without doubt, and and listening to understand is really big. And I think as a leader, paying attention to what obstacles you need to remove for for your team, because a big part I think of leadership is how do you help your team just get on with it?
Let them do what they do brilliantly and get out of their way and take things out of their way. So being human, paying attention to what's needed by your team, and I think the last one is self-awareness. Um, if you as a leader understand the impact that you have, both positively and negatively, what a gift that is. I mean, it and and it's incredible how little time we will often dedicate to that.
And this isn't about going into a three-week retreat and um you know, reflect it's about day-to-day having that self-awareness. What kind of form am I in today? What what kind of energy am I gonna bring to the team? So humanity, attention, and self-awareness.
So I didn't even know you had a dog, you got a dog.
I and she and she clearly does not buy into my principles because she's just walked out of my office in disgust.
You might have heard So Jane, this is gonna sound like a really, really strange question. And it sounds like is it just me thinking about it? But but how does a leader be more human?
Ah, that do you know what? I think that's a great question because I think it varies. I we're all come so different as humans, and I think the minute you try and be human the way someone else is, it's like trying to walk in someone else's shoes that don't fit you.
Yes.
So I think being human for me is not being in a role, not not being a vice president or a sales leader or an engineering leader, but just I I'm Neil, I'm Albert, and absolutely you have a mission and a goal as a leader, but start with the human, start with the hey, I might not have all the answers, but I'm open to listening, or start with the sharing of experiences that for me, human starts with knowing yourself, but also just showing up without any um what's the word I'm looking for here,
without any kind of armor or cover. I think that's another big part of it, and that's where vulnerability comes into it.
Interesting. So, Albert, do you how do you think about being a human when you're being a leader?
But I'm just thinking about where you're human, right? Because despite what you say, there are times that I do as a leader, you do need to have your uniform, you do need to have your presentation of being a VP, right? As an example. Um so I guess we're talking about in certain situations, drop your guard, be vulnerable, that's okay. What we're not saying is stop being the role you are being, guys, as the leader of the business when you're representing the business in other situations.
But by being human, I I guess you can call that, right? What you should know, I mean, look, as a leader, you're also a team member, right? Because you belong to a team, you're also subordinate because you've probably got a boss. So we'd behave differently in those different scenarios, right? But with the team, the team have got to feel comfortable, I guess what you're saying, Gene, is that you are authentic, you are honest, um, you know, and you are what did we talk about last time?
You're fair, right? Yeah, things people are looking for.
Does does humanity, being human rather, does it have to mean that you are vulnerable?
So so I think vulnerability takes many forms, and I think uh uh some of the discomfort that leaders have is oh my goodness, right? Am I gonna have to reveal all my deep dark secrets and expose myself to the point where I feel uncomfortable? Um, and even as the the queen of too much information myself, I will still have points where I'm like, actually, I don't know that I want to share this today just because for whatever reason it's not the right thing for that session or the meeting.
I think vulnerability can be admitting when you get it wrong. I think vulnerability can be, I'm tired today. You know, I was delivering a late session last night, and guys, can someone else just kick this off? I'm exhausted. I think we tend to see vulnerability in the extreme, and it doesn't have to look like that. It's it's those human moments.
And I think, Albert, to your point about that role and when you're delivering, you can be absolutely professional in the the top of your game and still balance that with being human, ways of doing it. And I think what most of us wrestle with is is it an either or? Do I step out of being professional to be human? And actually, when you get them to live together, it's magical because you don't lose respect for the leader, you just feel like you know them more.
Yeah, and so it sounds like it's all about just doing the right things for the right reasons. It kind of feels like you know, you you've got a role to do, you're doing the right things for the right reasons and being connected with with the people that you that that need to help you do that. I love the the the um the examples you give, being tired. I'm tired today.
Just be honest, you know, you don't have to have a suit of armor around you and be this, you know, this great big and you see it in so many leaders out there who feel like you know, I can't put a mask on because I would look like I'm weak, you know, in the COVID-19 scenario. You know, I can't think of someone in particular, but uh you know, there's that kind of uh that approach that says, I if I'm a leader, I have to be strong.
I can't have a cold, I can't be tired, I can't be um falling asleep when I'm listening to someone or whatever it might be. That's that's really good. That so it's okay to do that. I guess there's a balance though, because if you did that too often, if you said I don't know too often, or can you do this too often, then you'd probably start losing a bit of respect there as well.
Yeah, you want to keep the confidence of your team, and I think that's the key thing. I mean, if I'm the VP of strategy, I'm not gonna stand up and say, I really don't have a clue where we're going on this, because all professionalism and credibility is out the window. Yeah, but that's so there's moments where you want to really have people feel confident.
You guys talked in one of your other um leadership sessions about vision and creating that kind of view for team, and you want to feel that confidence, so it's just getting the balance right, and and a lot of it is common sense, a lot of it is you know, there's a moment to be um really human, who's your trusted group? Um will admit, oh, I am proper tired today, and then there's the other group that that it's okay, they're expecting something from me, and I need to deliver that.
So, as a leader, you I think you need to know your spaces.
Okay, I'm thinking of a real example, Neil, actually, when you and I were together just really quickly. I remember I got to this point of thinking, I'm the first car in the car park, I'm the last car out of the car park, and I don't know if we're getting there. And I went to the the guys who were close, I was a I think we were a pretty close team, and I got someone to go and find out from them, and they gathered the feedback anonymously. What do you think about my leadership style?
What am I doing right? What am I doing wrong? Wow. Seven PowerPoint pages later. Seriously, seriously, best thing I ever did. Best thing I ever did. I'll go and go through it now, but it it taught me some things about myself that changed our game, right?
Working that's an interesting being first in the car park, last from the car park. Actually, that's very '90s style leadership, isn't it? You know, I've got to be, I've got to be there first, I've got to be there last because I've got the extra stripes on my shoulder or pips on my shoulder, whatever. Um, and and so how do you how do you change that? How do you move? Because some people have come from that era and they're now in bigger leadership roles.
So they, you know, they may be their VPs or they're uh senior vice presidents now, but they still come from that ego-driven, I've got to be stronger and better. So, how do you how could you change? I mean, is there a way of changing?
Well, I mean, I mentioned earlier on the self-awareness, and and I think Albert, you obviously noticed something here is not working. So, what tends to trigger it is there's a sense of there's something not quite playing out here. Um, and here's what's interesting, Neil. I think the world has just had the most wonderful disruption to that model through COVID-19. Because we ain't going into car parks and we're not going to be doing office hours for quite some time.
So it almost presents a whole other problem because now we've got, well, I'm on all the time, I'm working from home. So there's something that has to happen that disrupts the pattern of someone's thinking. Um, and and a phrase that I've seen increasingly in discussions about leadership is over-resilience. I think we've been a lot of discussion around resilience, and it's seen as a great attribute, and and we wear it as a badge of honor, and there's lots of ways to be resilient.
But I think it's really interesting that I'm seeing that pop, maybe because I'm looking for it, I don't know, because I'm seeing a lot of leaders sometimes they only make the change when something happens. There's a critical event, there's a moment, there's a project that doesn't quite go where it needs to, and and you have to take a long, hard look at yourself. Um, but they're definitely those old models I wouldn't say are fit for today's purpose anyway.
Um, I think the whole conversation's been rewritten. Um, but there has to be a willingness on the part of the leader, like for you to be that open, Albert. You know, you can invite feedback and that's brilliant, but are you gonna listen to it? Are you, you know, can you can you be human enough to take it on board without getting I'm gonna defend and explain why, but actually say, okay, here's a message. That's not easy.
I mean, that is not easy to do for any human, regardless whether they're a leader or not.
Now more than ever, it's critical that customers find accurate information about your business. Local works by Yahoo Small Business makes it easy to add, edit, and publish business information across 70 plus local directories from a single dashboard. Ensure your business is found with local works and save 10% today by using code LW Podcast. Visit yahoosmallbusiness.com slash local to find out more.
Well, your your title's interesting, June, right? You know, conscious leaders and teams consultant. And and I was looking up some stuff about that. Uh in fact, Charlie Johnson had written some some stuff online. But the trust word comes in there big time, right? Big time. So tell us a little bit about trust. What do you think about that?
So so trust's a wonderful thing and it's um often intangible, but do you know when it's not there? You really know it when it's not there. And I I was just working with a team this morning, and whenever I position the conversation about trust, I always use an image of a jar full of marbles. It relates back to some of the work that Brune Brown has done. You cannot just suddenly do a massive thing that creates trust.
Right, we've done this once, brilliant, we've had everybody together, now we all trust each other, fabulous. It just doesn't work like that. It's in the small things. So I think the challenge with trust is you have to be consistent. If you're not, and that's where being human comes into it, because that's where you will often see trust building. There's a connection that feels real.
When there's trust, you can weather storms in a completely different way, you can um get things done in a completely different way, because there's a whole noise of stuff that goes on in your head that's not there anymore. Yeah, you've got those trust. So I think I think for me, my personal experience of it and observations, where there's a lack of trust, there can there can then build stories and mythology that doesn't really help teams.
So so I'm just thinking, I the reason I was looking up there, I was just picturing my head. So so how do you build trust? Because everybody's measure of trust is different. So, how does a leader go about building trust in in the team and the individuals? So I don't know, what what are you so many different ways?
Because um, even when we do a trust exercise, um some people will trust to start with, unless you prove otherwise. So you've got my trust, I'm a bit like that, you've got my trust, but woe betide you if you break it because you have to build it back again. Others are like, okay, I'm gonna watch you. And it will often be how a leader responds to situations. What's their what's the instinctive response? What do they do when things get difficult? Um, how do they have their teams back?
I think there's just a whole host of things that can happen that build trust, and it's different for other people. It's you know, what works for me and makes me trust someone isn't necessarily what Albert would be looking for, or what you would be looking for.
And that's where that pay attention is so important because any leader that thinks they have the trust formula sorted out is potentially going to have some some challenges because the formula will never work for the same, you know, for a different in the same way. But that said, you can build a consistency. I mean, Albert, you mentioned mentioned Charlie Johnston, my my boss at the moment, he's a great example of someone who's consistently behaved in the same trusting way all his career.
So so there's something that becomes, if you like, a reputation as a leader, and then there's the lived experience of being with that leader where on the day-to-day you start to see it.
I'm guessing what some of the things you said earlier, right, about being human, paying attention, and self-awareness, all of those things help build up trust as well, if you do those consistently. And uh if it's okay, I'd like to come back to something you said earlier, because I'd not heard the term until you mentioned it, which is over resilience. What what of what where's that come from and what does that mean?
I well, I hadn't seen it until quite recently as well, but it resonated with me because what I had noticed, particularly as we went into the pandemic and the lockdown, and I can't imagine what it's been like for some organizations where working from home has not been a norm. All of a sudden, all the ways of a leader connecting with their team and managing their work were just wiped out, and it was okay, we're gonna have to do it this way.
And I think when you take on the role of leadership, accountability is a huge part of that. So I think what we may be seeing is a trend where that accountability has played itself into leaders who would normally carry the load themselves really starting to struggle with that potentially because what's manageable in what used to be the norm doesn't feel as manageable in today's world because there's so many extra things we have to think about.
Just going out to get groceries now feels like an expedition that requires so much more brain power. So um I think over resilience is a terminology that's been used in the context of burnout, I think, is where they're they're looking at it. So somebody might be doing brilliantly today and really managing so many things.
I'm helping the community, I'm supporting my team, I'm on it with my family, homeschooling, oh, and I'm making a bar out of pallets in my back garden, you know, all of these things that we see going on. And that individual might feel fine in that, but I think the idea of over-resilience, my interpretation of it is could that translate over time into something less positive? Could you know, is it is that an attribute that we want to say is, yeah, we definitely want to be that.
What's the effect it's having on on you know your body and your mind?
Yeah, yeah. Um so what what advice would you give then to a leader on how to try and not break that resilience? So you know, I've I heard something the other day, because I'm kind of looking at Buddhism at the moment. I heard this fantastic phrase the other day about a um a stiff branch when it's bent breaks. A flexible branch when it bends, bends back. And it was kind of a I thought it was great, you know, classic Buddhist type term, you know.
But I just uh I just it just came to mind as you talk to. So, how do you stop someone being so stiff that they break? What kind of advice could you give a leader on that?
So I'm gonna go back to the self-awareness. So, one of the things that I've noticed at work, and for some years now, we've been introducing more mindfulness and a more mindful approach to how we do things. And that would probably have felt like a really what what where does that live in leadership? But a big part of it with with mindfulness is noticeing. When you are going at 100 miles an hour, it is incredibly difficult to notice what's going on because you're at speed.
So as a leader, it may be actually someone says it's over resilience for you, it might be the right level, but have you stopped and paid attention? What's going on? I mean, even this morning I was working with a team, and I quite regularly will do like a three-minute mindfulness body scan with them. Don't get me wrong, you sometimes get the kind of look in the in the screen that's like, okay, I'm gonna go with this because I'm polite, but I have no idea why we're doing this.
And it's incredible how many people say, Oh, I didn't realise I had tension on my shoulders, there's something going on in my back. So I think with that one, you have to have the ability to be self-aware and notice, and then get curious about right, well, what's that all about? How's that gonna play out? And you only do that if you stop. You know, even if it's for two minutes.
That that would be my I mean, I'm sure there's lots of other ways, but that's the one I think um is most accessible to people, and they could start that straight away.
Are there any resources out there that we could recommend to people that would help them with that?
A ton. I mean, I think if you I mean, I use the app Headspace very regularly, and I find that really, really helpful, particularly with the busy mind. Um I think today there are so many free options available online. I think anyone, if they Googled um mindfulness or leadership combined, they would get plenty. And it's finding what works for you. For some people, all they need is a walk in the woods. You know, if you've got a dog, take the dog out.
And there's something about just taking yourself um off that speeding train or whatever my metaphor you want to use and just breathe, um, as opposed to going from one thing. That would I think that would really help.
I think you're right. The change of environment is really important. When Neil and I have got chats to have, the best way to do it is for us to walk and talk, right? Sitting in the office across the desk is a bar can be a barrier sometimes.
Actually, walk-in meetings. Walk-in meetings are really interesting. I in fact, I've got three next week, you know, because we you know we can't meet face to face actually, and I I in the summer I do try and do a lot of walk-in meetings with clients or customers. Uh, you know, it um so that I don't know, do you do you see that working, or people go outside and actually have meetings while they're outside together?
I cannot recommend it highly enough. Now, it is a challenge living in Scotland when it gets a bit windy.
I'm not that can be tough, but joking aside, um I think it's the one thing that pops up most, particularly since we went into lockdown, and and I don't know the science of it, but there's definitely neuroscience that links the movement of the body with switching the way the brain is looking at things, and even when we're back in a world where we could sit down across from a desk, I would still recommend the walking meetings outside because it's just a different conversation, and even being side
by side with someone rather than facing them. So, and I wouldn't let anyone be put off about time, even if you do something for five minutes, it can actually help.
Right.
Just getting up from your desk and get putting yourself in a yoga pose. Yeah, and believe me, I don't do any adventurous wins. So if I can do a yoga pose, anyone can.
Getting into it's fine, getting out of it's the challenge.
Absolutely. Don't do it when you're at home alone. Um, so there's definitely something about just changing your position, even if it's in a different room, and anything like that, it can just switch the thinking.
That helps with the over-resilience and and the and and the self-awareness as well, being aware that you are so and the the the second point you made about what you see was about listening and paying attention. I'm just you know, and and and Albert was really good at this, uh, you know, as as a leader, Albert was really good at at listening.
Um until last week's episode, but yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, true, yeah, yeah. Apart from last week's, but uh no, you you were good, you had to be good at listening when you had some of the employees you had. Um but uh so so what when you see great leaders, what because it sounds simple, it's like being human sounds simple, but if it was simple, everyone would do it and everyone would be a great leader. So, what are the some of the tips or some of the things that you see great leaders do when they when we talk about listening?
Yes. Now, interestingly, this is the one, and and and I do have to give credit to my current boss, because you've probably heard the expression all hands for years. Yeah, he has all ears.
He doesn't have all interesting, and I think what's really interesting is the leaders who do this well are persistent because creating a platform, whether it's for a small team or a big organization, and saying, We want to hear from you, we want your views, we want your insights, that invitation alone is rarely enough. There has to be a persistence.
So I think not just creating the invitation, but showing that you've heard, showing that you've paid attention and doing something with what you've understood. I mean, there's nothing worse than being asked for your input, asked for your guidance or your wisdom or your experience, and then it just you feel like, well, well, that went on a PowerPoint, but we're never gonna see that again. So I think um having a real sense of if I share here, first of all, I'm gonna be safe.
So you have to take time, I think, for people to feel comfortable. Am I safe to say what I really want to say? And there's a real art in that. So, with that as a leader, you need to be non-judgmental and and fight the sometimes. You might feel defensive if, oh, but I've been working on this behind the scenes. You have to manage yourself as a leader to create a space that feels safe. Um, and I think then you can tap into magic.
I I I met with another team earlier this week, and the leader was actually really excited because he'd been trying for about six months to get his organization to open up to really get ideas from them, and you could hear the energy in his voice.
He's like, We've completely changed the way we're doing our planning this year because now I'm getting everybody's voice in, and you could get you could feel his sense of now everybody feels part of it, but that took time, so it you can't do one meeting, and then if it doesn't work, say, oh well, I gave them the chance, they didn't want to speak up. Persistence.
Gene, I'm thinking about a great example when you and I ran the Managers Institute. Do you remember that? So, what we ran here, guys, was 1400 managers across the whole of the UK organization, which we split into groups of about three, four hundred people, and we got them together for a two, three-day workshop, overnight, guest speakers, and so on. And part of what Gene and I did was an executive panel.
And the first time we did the executive panel, they got ripped apart because everybody went boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. But we came off the panel and they all went back to work, and we went back to them with the issues that got raised, and they went, What do you want us to do with it? No, guys, the reason you had a panel was to listen and act on what you heard. Oh whoa, they were shaken. By the way, all the same people didn't come back to the panel next time.
You're gonna ask people and you're gonna engage them and you're gonna listen, do something with it, right? Or don't do it.
Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, and it's interesting. What I hear from you know, I work with lots of different organizations, big and small, and probably more in the small organizations, leaders do struggle to listen. But one of the things I hear is, well, they don't know the full picture, they don't know everything I know. They don't and so I could ask them, but you know, will they be able to give me something of input because they they don't un see the whole thing, whereas I see the whole thing.
I don't do you see that?
Yeah, I have seen that, and I think what's interesting is, and there's some truth in that, that when you're in a strategic role, you do have the whole picture of the complexity. I think what leaders are missing out on, though, is some of the lived experience of what's going on in their organization. So, in actual fact, what they don't realize is they're missing part of the picture. They see their team is missing this piece, but actually it's often the leader that's missing the lived experience.
And I think viewing it as additional intelligence as a I'm handing over the decision-making powers to this group, and and some of it comes from a place of feeling like, oh, does it make it look as though I don't know what I'm doing if I'm asking these guys? So that's back to when I talk about being human, a big part of that is giving your ego a day off.
You know, and that's actually a principle within Cisco where I work, that is one of our guiding principles for everyone, not just leaders, give your ego a day off because it can get in the way of you just being open to more information.
I read that last night and it made me giggle. I thought it's a fantastic line.
Especially the IT industry, you know, which has been a very ego-driven industry, um a bit like the finance industry that I do do a lot of work in, is you know, egos are big, and in leaders, the kind of the egos get bigger as well. Because there's because people feel more worried about their role and they want to protect their role and their position more. Um so I'm gonna move because we could talk about this forever.
But um, Albert, there was a question I know that you you were uh uh raised with with genes.
Yeah, for good. I mean, I kind of think about one of our previous broadcasts, we talked about role models, and I was thinking about I I use those role models to kind of mimic the things they were doing, not to clone on them, but to kind of mimic that. A theme on that would be could you give us examples of things where you've seen a leader do something outstanding and you've gone, wow. Um, and then on the converse of that, something you've seen a leader do and you've gone, oh wow.
Yeah, yeah, and I think yeah, I think the wow can have a very different tone. Let me start with the what perhaps had less of a positive impact. I think in any case where I have seen a leader say one thing and do another, you can almost feel the trust evaporate in the room as it's happening.
Yeah.
Um, and it tends to come in a situation where a leader perhaps underestimates just how savvy the audience are that they're dealing with. And I think underestimate your teams at your peril because you know they might not be the SVP of strategy or whatever your role is, but they all bring their own experience and knowledge. So I think that saying one thing and doing another really creates great difficulty, I think, in trying to form any kind of trust going forward.
Okay.
On the flip side of that, where, and we kind of touched on it earlier on, um, a leader who is persistently curious and open and genuinely comes to that the table, be it with a one-to-one, a group of 10 or a room of a hundred, they're there with a sense of curiosity and they're confident about their abilities. They know they bring something special to the table, but they're humble enough to acknowledge that there's more to learn. So I think that's where that balance comes.
How do you show up with the confidence for people to feel, yeah, I want to listen to them, and the humility to be open enough and persistent enough to get that knowledge. Every specific I have, either positive or negative, I could probably trace to those two things.
Perfect, perfect. Yeah, and that's just joined the dots in some of the things you've already said, right? So, yeah, thank you, Neil. I wanted to get that one in, so thank you very much.
That's true. So and I I so I want to kind of put one last question to you, if I may. And because we're not professional interviewers, you know, we're just a couple of guys that have kind of got together to talk about leadership. But if you if if you were us, what would be one great question you would love to be asked by by us about leadership?
So I think I think the question is, why do you follow?
Okay.
Why do you follow? Because I think we look at leadership um very sort of introspectively, me as a leader. And actually, if you look at yourself as a follower, you will start to get a clue, well, why do I follow? And what does that look like?
And then get curious about why, and I will give credit to one of my other um bosses in Cisco, Ashley Goodall, for this one because he challenges our whole perception around leadership with a book that he's recently written, and he talks a lot about followership. And when you start to ask yourself why you follow, and then track that to how you lead, that is some interesting reflection and a walk through the woods, let me tell you, because there's often a real disconnect in that.
So I think that's the question we don't ask enough.
Okay, and what would your answer be if someone asked you why you follow?
I will tend to follow leaders when I look at the pattern. If they are not authentic and human, it is very difficult for me to follow them with all my heart. So I will follow from accountability and responsibility a leader, but if you want me to walk over hot coals, I better feel as though what I see is what I get with you. And they may have some kind of real magic or special sort of strength that I am drawn to from the point of view of I want to learn from that leader.
So I'll often look at leaders and think, oh, I'd love to work for them because I'd really love to see how they do that. And then the next part of it is and can I trust them?
Great. That's really useful as well, June, because all the people watching these broadcasts are not all just leaders, right? We know we've got a lot of followers, right? Who are aspiring leaders or trying to understand their leaders, so that's really useful.
Great, great point. And you know, you can see as I've been I've been writing loads of notes down here because I've just I've learned so much just from this conversation here, and and I'll put some of this into the the notes underneath the video and in the podcast uh as well. So I'm gonna I'll wrap up in a minute, but Albert, what do you want to anything you want to say?
No, that's right. Well, we always knew guys we were gonna have a problem with time. So we've I think we've got as much as we can get out of the session today. Um, it may not be the last time you see Gene. We'll see what we can do with that. But Gene, that's been fantastic. Thank you very much for your information, your feedback, your experience, and uh keep going because I'm watching you climbing that ladder and it's looking good. So thanks very much for joining us. Thank you, Neil.
Thanks for having the conversation. A delight to be part of it. Thank you.
Brilliant, Gene. And and in good, you know, kind of Tim Ferris style, you know, we'll we'd love to have you back for a part two of this kind of conversation. So uh so look, I'll do a quick wrap-up. And well, actually, now, Albert, you do your normal bit of uh feedback and stuff like that because you're good at that.
Yeah, so guys, listen, yeah, uh what we're missing, we're really enjoying the feedback, guys. And by the way, some of the feedback we're getting isn't going on the public posts. Lots of you are writing to us directly and personally, either on LinkedIn or email or whatever, and that's fine, really happy. Don't stop doing that. But do share some things on the public post, ask some questions on the public post, but we invite you, tell us what topics you want to hear about.
We've got a list of stuff. Neil's going to tell you what we're planning for the future. But if you've got something you really want to hear about, it pleases us more to answer those questions for you than for us to bring it to the table. So, yeah, please bring keep it coming in, guys. Thank you.
Brilliant. Okay, so to just sort of kind of pull it together, thanks everyone. Thanks, Gene. Brilliant to have you here. Uh Albert, great to see you again. And we've got our backgrounds looking very, very similar today, which is uh which is awesome. Um, the pot we the podcast is now available on most of the podcast sites as well. So the the the audio recording of this is available on those, which is including Spotify. I was really excited when I saw it on there the other day.
Um, but please leave us comments, uh, thumbs ups on you know YouTube down below and hit the subscribe button. We're getting lots of subscribers, really appreciate that. Um, so next week we thought we might cover the topic of lead looking after yourself as a leader and uh kind of cover. We started talking about it today, but kind of expand on that a little bit as well. But listen, great to see you guys today. Thank you for joining us and uh have a great rest of the week. Excellent.
Cheers, guys, take care, all the best.
See ya.
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