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Good afternoon, good afternoon, good evening, good morning, whatever time it is for you guys. Welcome back to the Leadership Zoomcast. So here we are, episode nine. Um, I mean it only feels a little while ago that we did episode eight, but anyway, we're here for episode nine. Um Neil, good to see you. How are you doing?
I'm great, thank you. Absolutely fantastic. I'm also delighted that we're joined by another guest today. Uh so I'd like to welcome uh Vivian Joins, who's managing director for EQS UK. Welcome, Vivian. Thanks. Glad to be here.
Hey Vivian, welcome to the session. Welcome, good to see you here.
Yeah, and actually, I think we need to change our background because Vivian looks a lot better with a white background than we do with a purple background here, actually.
We're probably due for a change anyway, but maybe it's Vivian just looks better than us, Neil. Maybe it's that, so I don't know.
It could be, yeah, it could be.
Like in the red top, actually, because we've been a bit boring with our colours, right?
So yeah, maybe. Um, but it's you know, it's great to have a guest here, and uh and it's also great to have a a live leader on the Zoom cast as well, because we've had you know old retired leaders like us, and we've had a retired metropolitan superintendent, a metropolitan police superintendent, we've had a development uh specialist on, so it's great to have someone who's in a in a leadership role now.
And and Albert and I were talking at the beginning of this, you know, we're doing this Zoom cast is all about trying to find clues around great leadership, and that's really what we're interested in trying to find clues around uh great leadership. And Albert, I mean, I know we talked about it before at the beginning of this.
Yeah, I think you I think you've got a branding that we might be launching soon, Nil. Is it we're gonna go with that or we're gonna keep that paper for the moment?
Well, we were we were talking about maybe the leadership detectives trying to find uh uncover clues of great leadership. So that might be uh but it but it the point we're making is it's not about us, it's not about us. We want to try and uncover clues, which is why it's great to have a guest here to uh help us because we don't know everything, and we might have think we do, but we don't, and it's great to have someone who can help us uncover that.
So maybe Vivian, you could just tell us a little bit about your background and where you come from.
Yeah, sure. I mean I won't I won't go into too much detail, but um I suppose uh if we go back to the beginning, I was born in France and have spent but spent the last sort of 20 years in the in the UK, so have that kind of um mix. Um I've basically been working in the city since 2005, so about 15 years in various different roles.
Um, I suppose for the first four years, four or five years, I was in a real startup, it was a governance consultancy, um, then moved to very large FTSE 100 and started a business within the FTSE 100, um, and then for the last three or so years I've been at EQS group, which is kind of a small to medium-sized um company, and I'm running the UK team there. Um, so yeah, that's a bit of a quick uh breeze through in a nutshell.
So, how long have you been in a in a leadership role?
Um, it's funny actually, because the way I ended up in a leadership role was a bit strange.
So, in the in the first company that I worked for, um, as I said, I was there for about five years, and I think about three years in, so it was run by three partners, and it was and it was there was only 10 of us or so, and it was it was really sad in the sense that one of them passed away um from cancer, but it was backed by a private equity firm, and it was just proving quite difficult to to sort of grow the business, particularly in the UK. We were doing pretty well in Europe.
I was running, I was running the French market at the time, but it was a small, small company. Um, and then one day I got a call from the from the private equity company just saying, Do you want to have a go at leading it? It's not really working. Do you want to have a go? Wow. It was a frankly a bit uncomfortable because the the partners were equity partners and I wasn't an equity partner.
Um, but you know, I did speak to them about it because I think you know it was it was a genuinely uncomfortable situation, probably a lot of learning points from that, um, in terms of just transparency and having some quite difficult conversations. Um, and they were they were uncomfortable, but they were okay with it. And I just kind of thought, well, it's not very often you get an opportunity like this.
Um, so took it, and then I've been in leadership roles of teams of varying different sizes, probably maximum about 30 people, um, until yeah, until today at different places. So, yeah.
Was there some so there was obviously some hesitation from you to immediately say yes? How did you get over that? There'll be people listening to this who will have similar offers.
Yeah.
How did you get over that?
I just I suppose I just have a philosophy that you just gotta give things a go. Um and do your best. And my my thing is if I do if I do my best and I fail, I'm okay with it. If I don't if I haven't done my best and I fail, then that's not great.
Okay.
But I'm quite okay with putting myself uh up up for the challenge and then just trying to make it a success.
Yeah. Which which is which is a great way of living. I love that. You know, I give myself a go and back myself and do my best. And if it if it doesn't work out, at least I do my best.
Yeah.
But what what what what do you think makes you like that? Because that's quite a I mean, that's quite an interesting step to kind of go, I'll just I'll push myself and give myself a go, because not everyone's like that.
Well it's a funny thing, actually. I've been thinking about it a little bit recently because I think so. Just before we started recording, we were talking a little bit about female, um, females in leadership positions.
And I think one of the things that I noticed and that's written a lot about actually is that women are much less likely to go for opportunities and also much less likely to maybe identify opportunities and put themselves forward for an opportunity that even hasn't really been publicly announced.
And I and I have done that a couple of times, and I was I was thinking recently about why that was, and I happened to watch a TED talk which was absolutely fascinating about uh a female firefighter, um, and she was talking about raising young girls, um, and how parents will often say be careful to a young girl much more than they'll say be careful to a young boy, despite the fact that they might be doing exactly the same thing, etc. And that got me thinking about my own childhood, and I and I
and I and I was thinking I used to climb to the top of our climbing frame and jump off it, and no one would tell me to be careful. I mean, maybe they should have been telling me to be careful. I'm still here, so I'm okay. But I think when I thought about it, I was like, maybe that's part of it. Maybe just through being allowed to push my own limits, and I was always a bit of an adrenaline junkie. Um, that that just kind of transfers into different parts of life.
I mean, I do feel fear, and I am scared of new challenges, and I lose sleep over new challenges. So it's not that I'm kind of emotionally immune to things, it's just that I'm just willing to try, I think.
Fear is healthy, right? Fear is healthy because fear makes you think things through and helps you find a way, right?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that and that, you know, that's that and that's all part of it. It's kind of I suppose the other thing to bear in mind is that I get bored quite easily. So without sort of new challenges and new things to learn and new things to read about and watch, and you know, watch this kind of thing, for example. Um, I stagnated it, so that's probably all part of it.
So these are only 30 minutes now, right? So hopefully you won't get bored in that time moving.
Yeah, well, my attention span isn't great anyway. So um so so one of the things that I just really interested, so so someone who's been brought up, it maybe it's the way you've been brought up and and you haven't been treated in the be careful way. Um, but when you're working with other women in business in your teens who might have been brought up like that, how could you help them? Or or what advice would you give to someone who uh to another leader?
How could you help those people feel comfortable stepping forward?
Yeah, I think it's an I think one well I suppose there's a number of things. I think what I always think is once you've done something once that makes you uncomfortable, obviously what makes you uncomfortable changes over time. So my advice is always try to volunteer for things that just feel uncomfortable, you know, even if it's doing a research project. I remember in my first role, I'd said that I would do a marketing plan for the business.
I'd never done a marketing plan, I didn't know what I was doing. Um, but it was really interesting, and I'd you know, researched on the internet and kind of looked at what to do and put it together and understood the landscape, the competitive landscape a lot more. So that's what I always kind of recommend. And and I think, you know, so for example, in in the current team, you know, sometimes client conversations can be really difficult.
And I could step in and I could say, as the manager, you know, it's okay, I'll look after it. But frankly, I would rather not. And I think just by doing the things that make you feel uncomfortable, I think then you're just in a better place to feel more comfortable when you're uncomfortable. I think that's probably what it is.
It's kind of not being frozen by that uncomfortable feeling because we all get it, however senior we are, I think, and however experienced, it's just how you manage those emotions, I think, at that time.
So you're building that uncomfortable muscle, that muscle of being uncomfortable as often as you can. So when you're leading, do you create opportunities then for your team, male or female? Because this is true, male or female, making yourself uncomfortable. When you're leading your team, do you create opportunities for them to step outside their comfort zone and be uncomfortable?
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think first of all, I to I start, I guess, with a with the position. I always start with trust. So, and I don't like micromanaging because it just takes it's not my style, it takes too much time. Um, and I like hiring, I suppose, really enthusiastic, passionate people, which I have in my current team, and they're amazing to work with. But I think we're always looking at ways.
Well, I think I suppose as a team we just have an ethos to like okay isn't okay kind of thing. So, and that that I think hopefully permeates everything we do. So I think as part of that, we're always trying to push each other and ourselves to try out new things, and every time you try out new things, something new, it's always a bit uncomfortable. Um, we try and you know encourage people to do a bit of public speaking, get on webinars, do just do things they haven't done before.
Um, and I suppose the other thing is, you know, during we have monthly one-to-ones, you know, and there's obviously the the performance um management side of things, and it's kind of encouraging people to to find, I suppose there's the time, you know, growth edges, like where do they really want to push themselves and how can I support them in doing that?
Um well, there's loads that there's loads in what you just said. I'm just interested because I see Albert is just because I know you and I know the team, and I can see Albert's eyes going. So, Albert, what's on your mind? Just listen to what Vivian said there.
I mean, to be honest, the first thing that just triggered me was the trusting, right? Because that trust has come out in every conversation that we've been having with leaders or even with ourselves. So that trusting is absolutely key. But the thing that I was thinking while I was listening to you is we we do a lot because we learn by example, right? So I was kind of interested in what you expect from a leader because you're working for someone, I suspect.
I guess there's someone above you, I don't know. Um, but I was interested in what you think because the way that you I think you've developed your style over a period of time from the roles that you've performed, you've gone into uncomfortable situations, and I think the phrase, Neil, is you know, no growth comes from comfort, right? We have to be in uncomfortable situations to find the growth and the development. But I'd be interested in what you think about what you expect in a good leader.
It's a good question. I think when you ask that question, I think about a couple of because I did think about this a little bit beforehand, a couple of people in my life that I think have been amazing leaders, and the two that come to mind are actually my current boss and um and a guy called Charlie Dark, who ran a running crew that I was a member of called Rundown Crew.
And both of those people, so okay, so they were that the you know, so Akeem Bike, for example, our CEO is very good at setting the vision, he reminds people of the vision, he explains the why of what we're doing. Um, and I think that's always really key coming back to the why, not kind of forgetting to come back to the why.
Yeah, um you know, kind of clear communicators, not difficult, not scared of having difficult conversations, because I think that's always a problem when people kind of avoid those conversations, because my view of them is that yes, they're uncomfortable, but usually something good comes out of them. Yeah, usually.
But I think the thing that really with both of those people has I found really inspiring is that they that you know, you talk about turn from the top a lot, but actually people that genuinely embody the culture of the organization. So Akeem, for example, is the founder and CEO of um EQS and when I joined, so the two there's five values, but the two core ones that were there when I started were team spirit and passion.
Um, and when I joined, obviously I'd met him and I wanted and I thought I could learn a lot from him, and I joined. And then I went to Munich for the first time, the headquarters of the company, and was talking to all these people and went to a kind of social event, and and this team spirit and passion was just everywhere. And I was like, this is kind of strange. Like, how have people been brainwashed in this way?
But actually, it was really genuine, and and it's and and so he sort of reminds people of that and and makes sure that I guess it's his approach, it's the things that are important to him, permeate the organization and actually make it quite a special place to work.
And I think the same with Charlie Dark, I mean, that was an environment where running was kind of just a vehicle for everybody to support each other to be the best that they could be, and as cheesy as that sounds, it was the most positive environment and the most positive group of people I have ever been in. Like, no envy, whether somebody had run a 5K, an ultra marathon, whatever, they got the same amount of applause, the same amount of support.
And that was a real learning experience for me because I'd not never been in an environment like that that kind of was so supportive. Um, so yeah, I mean, I guess there's the kind of standard things that you expect from a leader, but I think the thing for me that has really inspired me in leaders are those that have created and you can see them be kind of the starting point of that culture that people really buy into and they create a following. Sorry, go on Albert.
Can I just touch a bit more on that thing around the passion and the enthusiasm and then just pass back to Neil? The do you think you hire that or do you think you create that?
Uh I would say I I think it's probably a combination of both. Because I think there is a very clear there the you know, we talk we talk a lot about the culture um in what we do, and we sort of bring it into conversations. Um but I think there's probably an element of trying to see that in the in the hiring process for sure.
Um I mean, diverse I always find this this kind of topic really interesting because obviously you want people to fit within the culture, but you also want diversity of thought and diversity of approach and all the things. So I guess you're trying to achieve the balance between the two because obviously if you have a whole bunch of people that are the same and think the same way, you're not gonna you're not gonna be as successful as you could be. So yeah.
Okay, yeah, I think you're right. I think you hire personal view, I think you hire at least those that have got the potential to then fit with the world that that you create.
I think you're right, Neil.
Yeah, and I guess I'm thinking of this kind of uncovering clues here, because it's great that Akim can create that that uh teamwork and passion in the business, um, and and it flows through. What I'm really interested in is how does he do that? How does that happen throughout a big organization across multiple countries?
It's a good question. I think um I think it has to be to I think part I think part of it is this is the people that have been hired. Okay, um, I think that is part of it, and so from a personal perspective, what I find really easy, and this is easy for me working for EQS, is that I feel completely aligned with the values of the organization. So I'm not having to, I can kind of bring my full self, if you like, to work and not have to try to shift myself into somebody else. Right.
Um, and so I I kind of I sort of I don't know whether I live, I don't live the culture, but in a sense I do. I mean it's just a natural thing. So I think that's probably part of it is making sure that you have the right local leaders in the different countries.
Um, and then also within Munich, you know, within Munich there's kind of 200 people, so it's not, you know, it's not a you know, hundreds of thousands of people in the organization, but it's still enough that you have to make a cultural, you have to make an effort to make sure that the culture and then that is a big question, and as the company, as the company grows, is making sure that that culture stays because it makes the company a special place to work.
Is it that what I've seen in other companies, good and bad, by the way, because uh is that when there's a consistency of message and there's a consistency of actions from the top down, so the standards are upheld, the values are upheld, and and so it's not here's our set of values, and then there's the management team doing something completely different here. I mean, you see that in government sometimes, obviously, as well, don't you?
But you know, it's that um, you know, so so do you see that consistency from the top down then?
Yeah, I think so. Um defin definitely from the top. I mean, you always have subcultures in organizations, uh, I think that's inevitable. Um, and there's always areas of improvement, and I think you know, that's just kind of normal. Um, but I think there is, I mean, as I said, the CEO embodies it, I think the management board embody the culture, and and you're absolutely right.
So that's something that I talk to people a lot in interviews about is that you know, having worked in different places, you know, there are places that people really wouldn't be able to tell you what the values are despite the fact that they're plastered all over the wall. They don't feel them, they don't live them. So um I think yeah, I think you're right. I think there has to be a level of consistency for people.
But I think it's important that people gen, I mean it's pretty obvious to say that genuinely buy into the values. Yes.
It's interesting actually, Neil, because our magic list that we've talked through a number of times was just endorsed again by Vivian, right? So setting the vision, clarity of direction, good communication, taking on difficult conversations, creating the right atmosphere. I mean, unless you've watched all our videos.
I mean, maybe you've watched Yeah, but it's it's not rocket science, is it? So why isn't everyone a great leader?
Well, there is some secret source as well, right? And some secret source in there, I think, is about you know, characters and uh and and the way that you conduct yourself, and it's about your values, right? And some of this stuff, uh you know, we've talked about it before. Can you teach it or are you born with it? Yeah, um, in fact, it's 15 years, Vivian, you've you've had a pretty good run. You've given you made some really good progress in your career. There's probably a ton more to go.
If you were advising people from here, let's take two dimensions, right? One, an experienced leader, and two, an aspiring leader. What advice would you give them?
Um I would say, well, I would come back to the do things that make you uncomfortable. That just always kind of um that's always the I would say try to un try to or if you don't if you don't naturally try to really understand people um and what gets them going, I suppose. Um I mean my so I mean it depends on people's approach. I'm very collaborative and I would much rather that people have full ownership of their own objectives and goals.
So I think it's around I think it is, it's around just under trying your best to understand the people around you. I suppose working on influence is another thing that's really important. So, you know, when you've got a team, particularly when you're a large organization, a lot of the time you're going to need to be really backing that team and trying to get things that will help your team to achieve their objectives, and that's about influencing others.
Um, so I think that I think that whole influence piece is is something that's really key. I suppose influence and negotiation are really important aspects. Okay.
That's what we haven't heard before, so that's really interesting. Do you just want to expand that a little bit, given that's a kind of new area of what do you mean by that?
Um I suppose so I mean, you know, in in different organizations they'll be structured differently.
And at EQS, I mean it's amazing, we have a lot of autonomy as a as a subsidiary, um, which is which is great, but we rely very much on headquarters for certain things like product development, etc. Um, and we because we work in so many different markets, there are different market dynamics, the there's different product requirements, and so you know, for us to be able to achieve our goals, we need our products to be in a certain place that might be different to what is required in Germany,
France, Switzerland, for example. So it's I guess it's being able to, you know, I suppose network within the organization, um, establish the right connections, build connections within the organization. Okay. Um, so that you first of all you've got the people to go to, and then secondly, you know, when there are things that come up, um, be able to articulate why things are important and try to align them also with the strategic direction of the whole organization.
Because obviously, you know, if you just come at it from your own perspective, you're probably not going to get very far. Um, but I would say that that's quite important.
Yeah, that's really interesting, actually, because what you you you you kind of if you don't do that, you're isolating your team, you're not doing the best for your team as a leader. So leading downwards is important, and all the things you've said, and and there's a lot you've glossed over, by the way. I'm gonna come back to because there's some great stuff there about leading down, but leading up and sideways is also really key to you being the best leader you can be for your business.
So there's one question I want to come back to because you've used the term a couple of times, and I think this is worth just exploring a little bit difficult conversations. So, how do you approach difficult conversations? What do you think works really well? What's the secret source for that?
Um having them first off, don't avoid them. I would say it's probably the first um and not being scared to just put that in the diary and and have the conversation. And then I think then I think it's about listening, usually. Um listening, understanding, you know, because whatever it is, there's usually a reason, um, you know, as to why things are the way they are, and then try and reach common understanding um and and a way forward.
I mean, I remember um this was years ago, and I and I have and I have to say my leadership style has changed a lot over the years. And I was um running a team um when I worked at Capita. And there was there was a there was a girl on the team who and and that that kind of it was it was just difficult. She sort of was clearly quite frustrated with what she was doing, was sort of very obviously unhappy.
Um, and it was creating ruptions, it was creating ruptions in the team, there was an atmosphere the whole time, and I remember and I and I did put it off for a while, and it was a big learning actually for me.
And then eventually I, you know, it was like it couldn't really go on, so we had to sit down and go through it, and it was such a hard conversation at the beginning because there was kind of quite personal stuff that was being thrown um in my direction, some of it justified, so that's fair enough. Um, but in the end it ended up being, you know, we were both really honest with each other, um, very honest. Uh, and it the first half of the meeting was frankly awful.
Um, and then af and then frankly, it was like night and day after that meeting. So I think I just think there was a really big lesson on giving someone the opportunity to be heard and understood, and you know, we actually became friends after that. So, and that would never have happened.
But you see, you you you you you what you've just said there is really really important. You use the word heard and understood rather than tell and communicate. That's that's a completely reversal of what we see in some leaders.
Yeah, absolutely.
That you are having a conversation with someone to help them be heard and understood. Yeah, that's really powerful. Um, and and anybody who's listening to this, that's a really important point about leadership. We talk about communication a lot when we talk about these in these Zoom casts. Communication isn't all going in one direction, it has to be coming the other way as well. Really important.
Um we're we're pretty close on time here, right?
And okay, let's move on to a couple of fun questions then, shall we?
Well, I I think we we can't we can't not ask Vivian questions around female leaders, right? I mean, we've got a great female leader on with us here. Um, and it'd just be good to get your view, Vivian, in terms of being a female leader. How have you felt that that's worked for you or it's been challenging for you? What what what's your opinion of that?
I I know we talked bit before the recording that you don't know because you've only got the perspective of being female, but yeah, what what what's your thoughts around female leaders versus male or any position you want to give us on that? It's your opinion.
Yeah, I uh yeah, I think you're right. I mean it's it's called I guess it's my normality, so I don't I don't I'm not sure. And I think a lot of the the male leaders in this in my in at EQS actually have a lot of sort of what would be called feminine leadership. Traits. So I I actually think there's a broader shift actually in terms of leadership style to incorporate more what would be deemed feminine traits.
I mean, I you know, my my approach is, and I don't think I represent women by any stretch of the imagination, but I think you know, I suppose when you talk about it, it's kind of usually a very collaborative style. Um so the aim being that the team have ownership, um, there's probably kind of a lot of empathy in in the way things. But when I said earlier that my leadership um started changed, I would say that as a as a young leader, I didn't have much empathy.
And I think that's where I really fell down. And I think you know, I was really I was often called professional, which I don't think I'm not called professional anymore, so I'm not sure that I would say, yeah, I mean, I think empathy is is really important, understanding where people are coming from.
I mean, often it's kind of a coaching kind of style, again, coming back to kind of helping people get the best out of themselves as opposed to from the top kind of telling them what they what they want. Um so they're the things that I suppose initially um spring to mind, but I think there's been a you know, there's a lot of literature on on this topic, obviously.
Um, whereas I guess you know, if you're looking at traditional kind of male characteristics, it would be much more directional, um, very, very ambitious. I don't think we lack ambition, but I think it's more of a it's more of a kind of team ambition as opposed to necessarily kind of a leader ambition. I'm trying to get it coming up um from everybody.
And in fact, one of the one of the things I've learned spending time with you over the last couple of years, you know, I come from a very classic sales director type background, which is it's all about yourself, it's all about hitting your numbers. And actually, one of the things I've learned from you is about that team and pulling the team together and collaborating, uh, which I've seen work in your team, you know.
So I I think that's a really important message to the the power of the group, it is actually a really powerful, um, a powerful trait to have. Um yeah, and that's and while we're talking about women in business, you launched an initiative last week, which I thought we couldn't really have an opportunity without without mentioning on here. So do you just want to tell us a little bit about that?
Yeah, sure. So I yeah, I mean I launched a project called We Are Catalysts. Um and the the aim of it is to create a community of of women leaders, um, business leaders who who who and and the objective is to to support each other in growing our businesses, but also to have a kind of positive impact on society even more generally.
So whether that be through actually our businesses themselves and what we can do there, um, because obviously there's you know a lot we can do, whether it's you know diversity or kinds of topics like that, um, or all supporting each other to do things outside of work um that that fulfill kind of more social impact kind of purposes.
Okay. How many people are you expecting in that group?
Um it's right at the beginning. So the the idea is that I run a pilot, um, which would be actually kind of facilitated sessions over a few months, every fortnight, um, and then we'll kind of see see how things evolve from there. But it yeah, I mean it's really in its empathy.
But it I mean, essentially it came to me because um, you know, when you're in a leadership role, yes, of course, I have my my manager, I have other people to speak to, but I think it's just really refreshing speaking to people in the same in a similar type of role, um, that also have this kind of broader um societal impact piece as well. So, yeah.
Brilliant. And I you know, wish you luck with that. And we'll put a link in the uh notes below to the We Are catalyst uh as well.
I've already had a couple of ladies from my network come back to me saying they were looking forward to contacting you. So I hope they make the cut, Vivian.
So, Albert, let's start wrapping up. Have you got a last question or a couple of questions you'd like to ask?
No, the only thing I would say is 30 minutes plus have just gone, Vivian. Right? Thank you very much for your engagement, your openness, and and and your sharing with us here about your career and your thoughts. So, yeah, for me, thank you very much for spending the time with us. It's been really useful, and I hope our audience really enjoy it. So, yeah, thank you.
Neil, back to you. So, um, I'm gonna ask one final question if that's okay. I know we're a little bit over time, but I just because we one of the questions I like to ask at the end of these is if there was one question you could be asked about leadership, what question would you like to be asked?
I think probably what's the best piece of advice you've been given, which I think is always an interesting.
Okay, and what would your answer be?
And my answer is is to listen. I had I remember um I went to a meeting with the industrial relations officer of Public Croup um years ago, and she was telling me that the CEO there, a chap called Mary's Levy, um, when he started as CEO, I think it was in, I mean I looked, I think it was in '87 or something, he spent two years l listening, listening to the business. So he would go to as many meetings as he could, whether they be client internal, and he would listen.
And and he and I I I can't even remember whether he's I think he's still chairman um and a very, very successful man. But her point at the time was that in in now nowadays a leader probably wouldn't be given that amount of time to listen um and to and to therefore have an impact, if you like. So I guess that's the kind of what people expect.
But I just thought that was a really I just thought it was probably quite simple, but such an important piece of advice because it's so easy to go in with your own ideas and you know, want to have want to make immediate change without necessarily really understanding the business or the environment that you're operating in.
Right. Yeah, we've seen that. Uh we've seen that before many times. And uh, but look, that I really, really appreciate you coming on uh today for episode nine of this uh pod this Zoom cast. I'm not sure what we're gonna call it yet, we'll come up with a a name for it. Um, but what I've what I love about doing these is is just I learn so much about leadership, you know. I'm just and that there was some great content in there, some great insight in there. So really, really appreciate that.
Thank you for for joining us.
Um and from my side, thank you so much for having me on, you know. And I we've worked with Neil as a business for a long time now, and um, it's always been a pleasure, but also I was very flattered to be asked. So, yeah, thank you so much for having me.
So, to wrap up then uh to our audience, please um subscribe down below, give us a thumbs up, uh, give us your comments, any feedback you've got, please let us have it, and we will look forward to seeing you in episode 10. Thanks everyone. Cheers. Cheers, man. Thanks, everyone. Cheers.
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