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Okay, hi, and welcome to uh episode three of the leadership zoomcast. Hope everyone's well today and feeling good.
Albert, how are you today? I'm good, I'm good. Yeah, it's been a quiet week this week, not as busy as normal, but that's good. Nice to have a little bit of downtime, a bit of time to myself, but yeah, it's good and uh looking forward to another session here.
And we still haven't got it right with the colouring, have we?
Well, I decided, true story guys, I decided to change my colours to Matt's Neil's normal purple, and then we just arrived on here this morning and he's blue. So that's okay, that's good.
So about five minutes ago, we were in hysterics because Albert came on matching the colours that I normally have, and I'd swap to a different colour. And uh and we're taking it a bit more seriously this week because I've just gone and told my wife and daughter to be quiet and not shout goodbye as they go out of the house. So you hear the background, the background noise going on as well. Um, but no, it's great.
Look, we it's great to be back on the uh the Zoom cast and to be talking about leadership again and really, really appreciate your feedback and comments. Uh, it's really inspiring for us to get some of those feedback and comments. And you know, I I couldn't but we were just talking, I couldn't believe when I looked this morning that 70 people have viewed the YouTube video that we did last week.
You know, and when we started this, we never thought we'd get to seven 70 people viewing, which is you know really exciting. You know, who knows what we'll do when we get to 100. It's great, isn't it, Albert?
It's good, and and you know, LinkedIn as well, right? There's some names popping up on LinkedIn that I know you and I might have kept touch with over the years or not, but some of them are popping up and and commenting and asking questions and stuff. So that's fantastic. Yeah, we've had some good comments, right? We've had some good comments written up, which is worth looking into.
So really helpful feedback and and and comments. Um, so please do uh put put comments on and and and anything that you think would be useful for you. And as we were saying before we started recording, you know, of those 70 views and 54 podcast uh downloads as well, if if one or two of you have took something away that helps you become a better leader for your team or for yourself, then we're really, really happy with that. Really excited.
Yeah um and and you know, the some of the comments have been really exciting. We got a comment, um, the first video we did, we got a comment from Slack Varner who said, Would we be her friend? And I don't know what kind of leadership role she's in, but I thought it was a fascinating comment. I just I just gave it a thumbs up. I don't know what you're supposed to do with that comment.
I'll leave you, I'll leave you to respond to that one, Neil Less.
Um, so there were there are a couple of comments, not on uh YouTube or podcast, but just feedback we've had from people we've spoken to about you know the quality of using Zoom and the volume of um you know using a laptop and stuff like that. And I hope it's okay uh and that it's you know it's okay to get the message across. It's obviously it's not 100%, and we're not planning or we haven't planned to spend a load of money on buying studio equipment and uh getting ourselves.
I mean, I I should have put some uh powder on this morning so I don't get the light shining off my head if I was taking it too seriously. So we're not gonna we're not gonna take it too seriously yet. If we get to a thousand views, maybe we'll start investing in some proper microphones and stuff. Um get a logo even on stuff.
So we'll we might just get coordinated on colours, that'll be a start.
Yeah, yeah, okay, that'd be a good start, wouldn't it? Anyway, so topic for today. Uh so we had a comment, uh, and I'll read the comment out, which was put on uh YouTube the first week. And I thought it was it, you know, we want to try and cover topics that are relevant to the people who are listening and watching. So this, I'll read the comment out, and that this is what we're gonna talk about today.
So uh I've worked for and with many good, some average, and two downright poor leaders in senior management and executive positions. Some have been really sociable people, others somewhat colder and introvert. But there's one trait that absolutely differentiates the good from the rest: fairness. Fairness is not about being nice, although it is about respect. Fairness is not about being soft, although it is about being supportive.
Fairness is not about giving the benefit of the doubt, it is about integrity. Fairness is not about accepting excuses, it is about being clear on what was expected. Fairness is simply that looking at an individual or a situation and being fair in your views and response. Dictators don't need to worry about fairness as they operate through fear and uncertainty. And that was from someone called PP. I really appreciate your thoughts. So the topic today is fairness.
A great uh opening uh comments there from uh that comment on here. Um, Albert, what are your opening thoughts on that?
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. And look, thank you for those comments because it's obviously taken a bit of time to put that together and and to share your experience as well, is really useful. I think you're right. I mean, you know, Neil and I were talking beforehand, how far do we think we could go on just that topic of fairness? And probably quite a long way. Um, you know, the word integrity came in there. I think that's absolutely right, right?
If if you act fairly and with integrity, then you generate trust in your team. You generate trust in your team, you generate success, right? So it does, it is, I think, a really key foundation. I've never thought about it, right? I've never thought, you know, am I am I acting fairly today? It's not something that I've I've actually thought about. But then maybe, maybe, Neil, that's because it depends on the kind of person you are as to how easily fairness comes in the things you do all the time.
And would you know if you're being fair or not? Because actually, it probably needs to be feedback from someone else as rather than your opinion. Um, but I actually I looked up the dictionary definition of fair when I uh when we sort of decided we were going to talk look at this topic. So we did do a bit of preparation for today because I did look in the dictionary. So treating people equally without favoritism and discrimination is the word fair, and that's really interesting.
Imagine a leader that treats people equally without favoritism and discrimination. Would that make them a great leader? Does a leader need to be fair and treat people without favoritism and discrimination to be a good leader?
I don't know.
What do you think?
Well, what do you mean by equally? Because if you look at equally, you and I know you know you drive people to maximize their potential. So someone's potential is not the same as somebody else's potential. So when you say equally, your expectations of an individual need to be for as good as they can be. Now that might be slightly less than somebody else, but that doesn't mean they're not doing their best. That doesn't mean they're not trying to improve on a daily basis.
So equally, you need to look at that as well and say, crazy this, are you being fair when you're trying to be equal?
And actually, and can't can you can can you drive a business forward? Can you be an executive driving a business forward and be fair? Aren't aren't people who are fair people who wear sandals and uh you know corduroy trousers and have long hair and beards? Sounds a bit soft, doesn't it? Being fair sounds a bit soft. It does sound a bit soft in in corporate world or in entrepreneurial world. Have you got time to be fair as a business?
Yeah, no, I agree. You know, it could come across as it gets in the way of progress, right? This is Molly Coddling and all that. We haven't got time for that, right? We've got targets to hit, we got customers to please. Um but I think if it's a foundation of the way you operate, it doesn't have to be seen as a weakness. It could be seen as just a principle that you operate to.
And by the way, if as a leader you're fair, I'd like to believe that those that will report directly to you, if you're in a senior position, so you've got managers reporting to you, are they fair? Because leading by example is much more important than leading by direction, right?
So is there a formula for how you could be a you know, I'm just thinking this this is a rhetorical question, I guess, but you know, is there a formula for becoming a being a fair leader? So if you did this, this, this, and this, a bit like you know, um, if you want to be a good sales leader, there are certain things you need to do to get to your sales number. Yeah. Um but so is fair, is is how do you how could what's the recipe for being a fair leader?
I think you did it earlier, right? Because one of the things you said was um you need to have somebody else to also be part of that or to sound it off against. And I know in my time I've always had somebody that I would have checked it with. So whether it was my HR leader or my comms leader or my sales leader, right?
That we'd have checked that together so that you could tell me whether I'm being fair, and I could tell you whether I think you're being fair, because you need someone else to just sense check, sense check that for you. Otherwise, I don't think you've got any calibration. Where's your calibration?
And it and I think it it's like uh it's like a balance, and balance keeps coming into my head when we talk about fair. It's having a balanced view of uh what's right for the business, what's right for the individuals, what's right for the customers, what's right for the stakeholders.
So I guess it's taking input and and um uh input and understanding each per each point of view of it of all the elements of the business to be able to make a foot if if because okay, so let's if what's the alternative if you look at the reverse of it? What's the alternative?
The alternative would be I know all the answers, I don't need any input from anyone, I'll make the decisions of uh a bit like um PP said in his uh dictators don't need to worry about fairness, they operate through fear and uncertainty. Yep, so they I know I'm right, I'm gonna uh push my way forward, so I haven't got time for fairness, everyone's gonna come with me because they're I'm the boss.
So so I guess if you if you haven't got that balance of opinions from everyone and sounding bored like you said, then how can you be fair?
I think that would work. I think if you're looking for short-term results, that would probably work, right? I'm the boss, this is how we're gonna do it, this is what I say, because we'll hit some of those objectives, we'll hit the business objectives possibly, but there might be some casualties to that, and the casualties to that might be employee satisfaction or people development, right?
You might not develop the right people because you won't move any of your good people along because you want to keep them here to help deliver the results. So I think short term, that approach would probably work. You and I probably know some leaders that took that approach, right? And it worked short term, but long term, did it buy loyalty, did it by employee satisfaction, and did it by a robust business that can go from year to year to year to year to support your clients?
No, it's interesting. I think you said that in you know you get a if you take an action now, it might not have an impact. And I guess I was thinking back to my you know, my timing with the military, you know, you might not have time to make a fair, balanced decision in a situation.
Let's all gather around before we decide if we're going over the head.
One's opinion on this before we decide what we're gonna do. Um in a situation which needs a decision quickly, it doesn't mean you you're making a because I and again, I think this comes down, you said it at the beginning, right? It depends on who you are.
So I think if it comes down to um if you're making this decision for the good of the situation, for the good of the business or the good of the the troop or the platoon or whatever, then it it doesn't matter whether it's a right or wrong decision, if you're making it from the right place, then it's probably a fair decision at that point in time with the knowledge you've got.
Yeah, yeah.
Um but yeah, yeah. So if if you so it's interesting because if you to have a balance to have balance takes time.
Yeah.
To have that balanced input to be fair takes time. Um so therefore you have to invest that time to be it to to get that balanced view.
Or you could come back round. So you could take the decision because you've got to get it done now. But that means you've got to wash up, you've got to come back round and explain why we did what we did. You've got to explain that it had to be done quickly, and so there was a need to act, and then you could consider how people feel about that and smooth those those rough edges off as you go through, rather than just walk away from it and say, We did it, end of story, live with it.
So, so I don't think having to make a quick decision means that you can't also still try and in in involve some fairness after the fact. That's still reasonable, personal view.
Yeah, and and actually that's that's so that's just that's there's just a good example of good leadership, anyway, which is you know, we did this, did we learn from it? What do we get from it? Yeah, I think there's a there's like two two types of styles that people typically have as leaders. There's kind of the caring, people focused type leader, and then there's the business-driven, numbers-driven, uh uh driving the business forward type leader.
And if you know one of them is probably less fair, and the other one's probably too fair. So so they're so I guess the great leaders are the ones that can drive the business forward, but but be fair to their people, their customers, their stakeholders at the same time.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're right.
Uh you know, it's just made me think of an example, right? It's just made me think of an example where I remember the business was doing okay and we had a really tough quarter, and we didn't deliver the result on the quarter. It's the first time we hadn't delivered the result on the quarter in 15 quarters, right? So I remember it was a huge thing. The main reason we hadn't delivered that was the bad judgment of one of my direct reports.
And I remember having that conversation with them when all the dust had cleared and sat down and did. Now, was I being fair? I was being fair to the business and to all the people who had done absolutely everything they could do to deliver the right result. But this individual had let something slip, right? So, did I feel like I was being fair in the round and on balance? Yes. I had to take a tough stance with that individual, right?
Which by the way ultimately cost them their job months later, by the way. Um, but it was the right thing in being fair to the business and the rest of the people. So that's another thought. You've got to think about the communities and the things that you're being fair to. Comes right back to what you said earlier, Neil. It's this balance. You've got to be able to get that balance.
And actually, what you've just talked about there, a good example is are you being fair if you are tough with someone? And actually, it is it fair to not tell someone when they're uh when when they're not delivering or when something's not going right? Is it fair that you only tell them at the 12-month review rather than at the time it's happening? Yeah, you know, I see that time and time again.
I work you know, with all so many of the businesses I work with, where the only time the employee knows they're doing a good job or a bad job is once a year. Yeah, they have a formal review, yeah. Because most businesses don't have a process of feedback.
Yeah.
And actually, even with customers, most most of the businesses I work with, they have like an annual review, if you're lucky with the customers, yeah, and and they'll find out once a year whether the customer thinks they're doing a good job or a bad job.
Yeah.
Is it fair on the employee or the customer that you don't know whether you're doing a doing it well or doing it badly as you're going through the year?
What I would say, by the way, is that topic you just raised there, I think, is the subject of a of a chat for you and I next time or in the days to come, right? You know, the whole thing about feedback, the whole thing about you know how to set up if somebody's performing well. Who are you being least fair to if you don't give them that tough message? The person themselves. You've let them believe for 11 and a half months that they're doing a great job. And you only tell them on month 12.
You've probably also made decisions through that 12 months about that person or about things that involve that person because you've already made the pre-judgment, but you haven't shared it with them. They could have improved, but you didn't tell them that you felt there was a place for them to improve. So you you've been least fair to them.
Yeah, 100%. And actually, if you think at the moment it's a really tough time, and people some people are receiving, uh, you know, they're receiving calls that says, you know, you're on a list, you're on a list, whether whatever company you're in, there are people who are uh, you know, I was listening to Radio 5 business this morning, you know, that's the one that's on early in the morning.
Yeah, and um they were talking about there's a lot of at-risk conversations going on at the moment, yeah, huge. Um, and is it fair that some of those people will be surprised to be having that conversation because no one's given them any feedback during that uh you know, and there's lots of reasons for it, and everybody's in a different scenario.
Yeah, but is it is it fair that that is something that people are surprised about because they've not been given any feedback on their um on their on their role and how they're doing at a point where I could do nothing to change that now.
Yeah, if you'd have told me that 11 months ago, I may have done something different, behaved differently, added value differently, that I wouldn't be in scope now of the at-risk. But you didn't tell me that, right? You let you let me get to that place and then said, sorry, you missed our beer.
So yeah, yeah. So it's not fair leadership to uh you know, we keep coming back to this word fair because the other thought thought that's going through my head, which is slightly going off topic, but so what? It's our zoom cars. Uh is uh actually, is there a responsibility of the employee to also find out from their leader how they're doing as well?
100%. 100%. Did you and I never feel the responsibility to know how we were doing or to ask how we were doing? We may not have knowledge other people's point of view, but um, was it fair for us to yeah, absolutely right.
I think there's a there's I'd say equal responsibility to keep it balanced because you've got to yeah, and and you know, when I'm coaching uh leaders, uh it's a a big part of what you need to do, and this I guess this comes back to fairness, but it also comes back to last week we talked about communication, and it's this um creating the environment where it's okay for your employees to have that conversation with you, yeah.
So they know that you're whatever you say to them, you're gonna treat it in a fair and balanced way.
Yeah.
Um, and actually that comes to a really, really important point about being a fair leader, actually, is is how do you create an environment where uh that feedback, that listening is okay? Is it's okay to to go and ask because you you know, like that they say when the queen turns up at an army base, it just smells of paint. Yeah, because and everything, the grass is painted, the fences are painted, and everything's perfect, and that's how she thinks the world is.
It's she thinks the world smells of pain. Um, well, that's what they that was the what they used to say in the military. Yeah, um, so if an leader doesn't create the right environment, all he's ever going to get told is good news.
Yeah, yeah. I think look, it it I think it comes back to Alaska as well, right? Communication. If you're keeping your team involved in the business and they understand what's happening, and they feel like the business is theirs as well as yours, then they would want to have the right environment, they would want to think about how they could improve. By the way, this fair treatment isn't a top-down treatment. Being fair goes both ways, right?
You need to be fair to me as a leader that I might have to do things to keep the business performing. You might need to be fair to me as your boss that I have to say things to you to help your performance or to help our performance. I think it works both ways, right?
Yeah, and it's really interesting actually that you the th the thought that just came into my mind is about ego. So you can't be fair and be thinking about yourself. You've actually got to be thinking about the bigger picture, the bigger good, and uh have that in the front of your mind, not what's in this for me or how can I represent myself best here.
Yeah, yeah.
Now, as an employee, it's got to be not what's in this for me and why is my boss doing this, being fair with understanding what the business situation is, yeah, and uh yeah, and and how what I'm doing is impacting that or why those decisions are being made.
It's interesting, isn't it? When we first saw those comments from PP, and thank you, PP, for the comments because look what you've just done for the last what we at 25 minutes or something? I don't know. Um did we think there was enough material in there to discuss this topic? But it's really interesting when you look at how it forms a foundation in the business and the team and the way that you work.
The only thing left in my head, Neil, on this one is is this something about the kind of person you are? If you're fair in your approach of business or as a leader or anything, is it because you are a fair person? So is this a behavior, is it an attribute, is it a trait, is it a part of your makeup? What do you think?
That's a bit like the questi that's a bit like the the question of you know, um, can anyone be an inspirational leader or is it in their DNA? So, you know, when you wake up in the morning, does your mindset go to the right thoughts that make you inspirational? Or does your mindset go to the right thoughts that make you fair? Um so my my my suggestion would be to that is there are some people where it will come more naturally, uh and there'll be lots of reasons for that.
It it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a people person, yeah. It just means that they are prepared to have a balanced view about about how they they operate and how they engage, being fair to your customers and not dominating your customers, having a balanced view, what do your customers need versus what profit do we need out of our customers?
So it there's so I think there are some people that wake up and and and it's in their DNA because they naturally, and there are some people who operate in that way because they get the best result, they don't think about I'm being fair here, they just do it because that's the way to get the best result.
Yeah, because it because it is, it's it you cannot be a leader, you can be a manager, you can be a dictator, but you can't be a leader if people don't follow you and you're not leading in a and to and to lead in a direction. I think what we're the answer to the question that we posed at the beginning is do you need to be fair to be a great leader?
I think we're getting to the point which kind of says, actually, it's a really, really important trait, and fairness or being a fair leader and having that balance is really important. So I think in answer to your question, yeah, I think is it in someone's DNA? Some people will find it more natural, and others will have to be more conscious about the way they approach it.
Yeah. Yeah, you know, if we come back to that question, do you need to be fair to be a good leader? No, you don't. But do you want to be a better leader than you otherwise could have been? Then yeah. So if you're not fair, can you be a good leader? You can be a reasonable leader, but what would that last long term? And do you get the full respect of all of your people? So I think actually I have to change what I said. Can you be a good leader?
No, not really, but you can get by, but you can be so much better if you are personally.
And you know, I I'm I I my mind always goes to when we're talking about these things, and I I I think at some point we'll probably have to do something in this podcast, uh Zoom cast, where we look at leaders who are in the news and have a conversation, you know, have a non-political conversation about leadership. Yeah, um, because my mind does go to some of the people who are in leadership roles out there, and do they operate with fairness as a skill set that they are demonstrating and using?
Yeah, yeah.
And I think some do and some some don't.
Um yeah, I think there's a few examples we can look at of that, and then uh that might create that might create one or two comments back here, actually, if we take a point of view.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if there are you know, if there are leaders that people feel that would be good for us to talk about and it as a in a leadership role, not interested in political views or religious views, but more interested in their leadership style. Yeah, um, you know, we'd be really interested in having that discussion on one of these uh one of these sessions.
Yeah.
Um so I think we're we're kind of just about wrapping up now, aren't we? I think we're there. Yeah, I think we're there for today, yeah.
So any final thoughts from you? No, look, I as I said, thank you, PP, for the thoughts. Others, please give us some other thoughts. If there's other things you'd like to hear, Neil and I got some ideas for future. We've always been we've also been talking about guests, so you might want to get ready for that, right? We might be thinking about some guests to bring on. You might want to volunteer and tell us why you think you'd be a good guest on the Zoom cast.
But hey, we'd be very happy to do that.
Or if there's someone you think would be a great guest for us to have on and and uh ask their view on leadership or you'd like to hear their view on leadership, then we'll we'll we'll try and get them on. Um, but no, please keep your thoughts coming, keep your comments coming uh on LinkedIn or on uh on YouTube. Uh please give us a thumbs up, you know, in the thing below and subscribe if you want to uh get these through each week. Um, but no, thanks a lot for your feedback.
Albert, thanks a lot for today.
That was all right, you're welcome.
A fair and balanced view of uh of the topic of fairness.
Thanks for time, Leo. Good to do, actually. We'll catch you up next week. Cheers. Have a great weekend. Cheers, guys. Take care. Bye-bye.
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News laws and regulations are changing by the day. We get it. And at ADP, we're here to help guide you with up to the minute compliance expertise so you can pay your people accurately and on time, regardless of what each new day may bring. Learn more at adp.com.