Wisdom for the Flock: Overcoming Betrayal and Pride with Pastor John Kieschnick

Each podcast confronts real-time struggles facing the local church in a post-Christian culture . Step into the action with the ULC at uniteleadershiporg . This is Leigh Time .

And then I heard about this crazy awesome pastor , gloria Day and Nassabbe and 33 years at Gloria Day bringing the gospel of Jesus Christ to his people . Before that he spent four years as a pastor in Irving , texas .

So his entire he's a Texas boy Entire ministry has been there in the great state of Texas and then transitioning into another season of ministry back in 2007 with capital funding services , kind of the LCEF arm there for the Texas district . What a joy to hang out with you today , john . How you doing , brother .

Another way to say it is what Peter I think it's Peter Drucker who said ask yourself regularly what business are we in ? So that you can answer the question how's business ? So that's the first thing . And as a leader in the church , we all know it .

It's in the Great Commission , right , but we have to remind ourselves of that regularly because it's very easy to get sidetracked . So that's the first thing .

So let me frame it up this way I get way more out of boys when I say words like in this season , we're just gonna focus on ourselves and kind of taking care of our house . I was talking to a lay leader recently and they're like yeah , you need to say that more .

And on the one hand , I get it because we're we got entrepreneurial ideas , ways to reach Jesus coming out of every orifice of our collective culture here at Christ Greenfield . But what is it about that that you know , pastor , you just really need to focus on taking care of us . Did you have similar experiences , john ?

We were shoehorning people in and people said to me Pastor , don't do that , we won't know everybody . And I bought the lie . So , boy , when I went to Gloria Day , I decided I'd better learn something about this . And I had people say , because I told them when I gave look , we've been focused .

I believe this church has been primarily focused on Lutherans who are moving into the area . If I'm coming , god willing , we'll be able to reach out . And so I had to convince myself of it . Okay , because I'm a pastor at heart . Okay , I love people and they love me . And you have to really break out of your comfort zone .

And I remember one couple I loved them . They were always telling me we need to take care of people . And I said you know what ?

It's not the tyranny of the or it's the genius of the , and we take care of people so that we can reach more people and so that , like I said because I know that I personally fight it there are times you just wanna say you know enough already , but you have to come back and say what did Jesus say ?

No , we're here to reach more and more people for him . So I have to remind myself , I start with myself and then train leaders to do it , and people will come along . Because I'm gonna lead to the second thought about leadership in that regard , if I may .

I really believe that we need to , and that's why this podcast exists is that we train people to apply the theology of the priesthood of all believers . One of the great roles of leaders is equip and train .

I'm Ephesians four right that you're to equip the saints for the work of ministry , for the building up of the body of Christ , and that was true in the first century , it's true in the 21st century . So that's really the second leadership principle I equip , train right .

I mean , we were trained to be doers not necessarily developers we were trained to do it for people rather than with people , and that takes a lot of humility , doesn't it for the leader , because you're gonna recognize , wow , I got a lot to learn and I may know a little bit about , or a lot about a little bit , theology , whatever it is , rightly distinguishing

law and gospel , whatever it is all the things that we learn at the seminary . But then you get out in the parish and you're like , oh my , goodness people are complex , ministry is messy and I better learn how to connect with real people and recognize my personality , gifts and my gaps . And how do I build a team ? I mean , there's just so much there .

It's easier , if you will , to just say I'm gonna enter into a church . They've been here for a long period of time and there's no disparaging .

There's 1400 of these sizes of churches in the LCMS right now , about 25 , it's a small group , right , and I can generally handle them and I'm going to preach the word to them and distribute the sacrament to them and I'll basically leave them alone if you will , and I'm hopeful they'll leave me alone too .

I just I couldn't personally have a clean conscience if that were my perspective toward doing the work , because we gotta keep the main thing , which is the main thing . The son of man came to seek and to save the lost . He came to seek and save me and I've been found and he's got many other lost sheep as well . So thank you for that .

It is all about equipping and empowering , keeping the main thing , the main thing . Third , leadership point there , john .

I started out my ministry as a teacher , like my dad and two brothers , and so , because my dad was a phenomenal caregiver of people , I learned from him and that's great , okay , but as you said , when you pay attention to the word and that's gonna be my third point about leadership I had to ground myself continuously in the word of God .

The word works , but sometimes we even get caught up on the externals of things . And what transformed my life was reading the book of Acts . It's the book of the Holy Spirit working through people . I love Acts 242 to 47 . I read that back in 64 to 66 when I was teaching and I said man , why , why isn't that cost happening again ?

Okay , and that really leads to the issue of the best is yet to come . I really think that the , the church , is the last great hope for the world and for that reason we believe that Ultimately we're gonna end up as a community triumphant right . And so I Just immersed myself in the book of acts .

That was transformative for me and I never intended to write a book . And one of my associates said to me in a meeting back in I think it's 2005 , we're the staff retreat and he said , john , you need to write this stuff down . You keep talking about it . Talking about it , talking about it benefit somebody else . Well , I said I don't write books .

Okay , and so frankly , just like we're doing on this podcast , we we found a guy that he sat with me for several days , he transcribed , he recorded everything I said and then we put it into a book . So I mean it's really it's his gift as much as mine .

But when I look at acts to 42 to 47 , all the disciplines of the Christian life witness and worship and prayer and study and Giving and serving and fellowship they're all right there . And look what happened the last verse and the Lord Added to their numbers , day by day , those who are being saved .

So that that was really my intent and I hope that people find that helpful and personal Basis . Okay , to grow , because I call it the seven doors to spiritual growth . It's kind of like the Discipline , the disciplines involved . Okay , not law-aburrided . You know , you got to go to church , you got to serve , you got to give , it's because We've been given .

We get to give and then we witness because we've been witness to . That makes sense . Oh right sir , servant serve and People in fellowship , care and love for one another . And you know what the Holy Spirit , in the midst of all that he adds to their number day by day . And I don't , I don't , I don't like this whole thing argument about numbering .

You know you can use it as an excuse or you can use it as a statement of pride . Don't use it easy way . Just say , hey , lord , how's business ? You said earlier about business . I thought you know if people don't like the word business , okay , I always remind myself .

The King James version said that Jesus Whiskey not that I should be about my father's business , I said what they don't want to call it business . Call the church busy mess , busy mess . It's a big mess because that's the new testament church . And a final thought on that is I really believe Sometimes we use cultures and excuse To , to not witnesses forcefully .

I this is a personal conviction . I believe the 21st century it's the 21st century in the West is an awful lot like the first century In Europe , in the Middle East . I look at all the parallels . It's amazing and so let's make the most . Let's make the most of it . Let's make the most of it .

The work of the Holy Spirit was absolutely messy and went cross cultural , and that's what we need to see today . So say more about how you think that . Where are those parallels right now , in the 21st of the first century ?

And then Paul takes off . You know , and I'm saying man , he went and he did go to the synagogues first and he finally said well , we'll leave that , somebody else that can do that . We got to move in another direction . And but the message , study the sermons in the book of Acts they were so marvelous and and study the methods .

And not just the message , but the methods in the New Testament church . I love Paul , we're gonna do all things Okay , the which reminds me there's not one that way to do ministry . I just get real nervous when people say you got to do it this way . No , no , no .

Look , look at the ways in which the church I used a variety of ministries to reach a variety of people , but it's the same message Christ crucified . But the book of Acts especially reminds us Christ risen again . Do we believe it or not ? Do we believe ?

So what are some of those methods that , as you look , this is lead-time podcast and we talk about the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod here . What are some of those methods that we're married to today that may need to come to the altar of the Lord and get re-refigured , refired ?

I mean , I Invite people into a community because it's all about relationships . The longer I live I'm gonna be 82 in a couple of months I'll tell you what the greatest treasure in life are One , to personally know Jesus and

second , to be able to share that at Christian community . I think people , people want to be excited about something , and then there's nothing more to get excited about than the risen Jesus in our midst .

Or two or three come together in my name hey , I'm showing up , and and so people need to be excited about that , instead of dragging our heads and saying , whoa , I didn't answer your question particularly well but I'm saying you look and just say , look at the different way .

I mean , paul , paul goes to your alchemist , okay , well , he goes to the synagogue , he goes here , he goes there . He appoints leaders . They're called elders , we call them pastors , you call them bishops , if you want to , in the Greek . You know the Greek churches . That whole thing is very interesting , but we won't go there .

But , but , and also the the explosion of we have the Roman roads now you got the internet , okay , yeah , so all those ? Well , I don't know if I'm , maybe no , no , it's it's wonderful .

One of my laments right now in the Missouri Synod is that those of us who are , you know , at the grass root level , you who were at the grass root , we have been kind of Removed . Maybe that's too strong because we have vicarage but not not . We don't have as the significant seat at the table in terms of formation Today .

And and maybe there's some things that can change , and with all due respect to the pastoral formation committee who makes recommendations to To Synod convention for how things can possibly change , none of those men are actively in a parish . There's four of them . They're good godly men , but they they're not actively in the parish .

So that's , I think there's some system things that could change and to bring faithful pastors who are Understanding what , what needs to change and what doesn't change . Our doctrine is not going to change . The message of Christ isn't going to change , but they're they're exegeting their community consistently , and how diverse is the American context today .

It's gonna take all types of leaders in various contexts to train up all different types of future leaders , and I pray for the interconnection between the seminary and local churches in various contexts in this day and age , and God's put that on my heart for a long , long period of time now . So anything to add to that , though , john .

It's Avoid the tyranny of the or and embrace the genius of the end . That was Jim Collins . He learned that and I think good to great , okay , but it's really true . Why do we have to make it seminary or nothing ? Okay , that doesn't make sense to me . And again to go back to the early Christian community , it was chaotic , it was messy .

I mean , look at Paul , and well , well , even with with John Mark , you know , john Mark , he just poops out at when he sees the mountains and southern Turkey or Asia , money , says I'm going home , well , you know . And then Barnabas wants to take him along and he said there's no way on God's great earth , paul .

Paul said I'm taking that guy with me and yet he reckons all is with him later . So , and going back to you know , the way in which the different congregations function , I don't want to , I don't want to be unkind , but , but I said you know , st Louis , for the Missouri Senate , is the mother church .

Okay , antioch , syria and Corinth and Ephesus are many of our other churches . Does that make any sense .

They're there in the church of 30 . They're there in the church of 3000 . And they're just waiting to be shoulder tapped . Have the IC and you conversation with their pastor to bring them to the table , if you will . So what were your strategies for loving and holding staff leaders accountable , whether they were paid or not ?

I think a lot of times we struggle with the accountable conversation . How did you , how did you do that , john ?

You follow me In those days to do more of that . And then I did a lot of Bible study . I taught

any number of Bethel Bible students , teachers . They then taught others . We constantly changed the construct of our congregation . We moved away from elders , we trained the elders , we had an elder decadent ministry . Then we had grown to the point where we couldn't manage that anymore , so we moved into small groups .

My point is this there's constant training across the board . Now I'm going to talk about staff . In our case I was blessed with a great staff .

I really was , and I'll just say quickly I don't care what church size you have we had weekly staff meetings and in those we always had Bible study or growth session or the care concern that was always a key component . Every week we included all staff , except for the staff for early childhood ministry , because they were obviously taken care of the kids .

We also had quarterly this is the management staff we had quarterly checkups . In other words , I checked in with those direct reports to me and the others down the line did the same , just to check in to say , hey , how's it going , based upon your goals , et cetera ?

Is there anything that's impacting you , even on a personal level , that's keeping you from meeting your goals ? So it was not a judgmental kind of thing , just say how can we help do that ? And then I'll tell you , as we grew one of the critical components we had bi-annual staff retreats . We got away Monday to Wednesday , once a year , wednesday to Friday .

Those were absolutely , always teaching times , always growth . We studied a book , whether the scriptures or a contemporary leadership book , always training those leaders . And then annually we did have annual evaluations and we tried to do as much as possible 360s . We developed our own tools because I always felt sure that's the way you hold people accountable .

Say , look , we came up with these goals together . Okay , this is not to beat you up if you didn't reach it . There are some things that , hey , all of us find out that it doesn't always work the way we want it , including myself . And the other thing is we really worked very hard to care for one another .

We had a very diverse staff and , honestly , some of them drove me nuts and I drove oh , I drove some of them nuts . Okay , I remember walking out of a staff retreat one time . I was so frustrated I know they were shaking their head about what's wrong with that guy again , you know . But they loved me enough to stay with me and vice versa .

We had some long term , but most of the staff at Gloria Day came out of the congregation . We had trained them so well we felt guilty . We said we're going to find a pay . You guys , you spent all your time up here , and so it was gradual . They'd start at part time and then move forward , but it was just .

I don't know if I've but , being honest with one another . Being honest with one another .

I'm an introvert , believe it or not , because I'm energized by small groups . Big groups drain the life out of me . Okay , and so I said well , I'm now . She was our business manager . Aren't you excited about going on this staff retreat ?

She looked at me and she was carrying an easel , not to the car , and she said it'd be great if we didn't have to take that blankety blank dictator along with us . And she was talking about me , and so and kind of tongue in cheek probably yeah . Well , and with everything , Tim , I'm going to say , and I learned the hard way .

I learned the hard way I was insensitive to my staff and I did not listen well to my staff , and so we got in . I'm not going to go into the details , Okay , Except I got triangle . Okay , and boy I'll tell you I went through some depression for about five years .

It was not I can't say how long it was because I can't , but I mean , you know where I'm coming from . It was incredibly painful . I learned a lot about myself , Okay , but I said to the staff we are never going to triangle one another . You got a problem with me . Don't go to somebody else and tell them to come to me . You come to me .

I got a problem with you . Trust me , I'm coming to you . And my wife reminded me . She said but you have to remember that you have to be willing to listen to them when they come . Okay , and I was . That was very helpful . And there was listen , because you're very energetic , like I am . So you , you think everybody else would be like that .

Well , God doesn't make everybody that way . And that's why I'm so glad , Tim , that we had such a diverse staff because , I mean , some challenged me and I didn't want them on staff . But you know , god knew I needed them on staff and they were a blessing to me and I hope that they , that they felt the same about me . So , yeah , yeah .

You don't have to agree with everybody , you could , but you sure can learn . Okay , that's right . And and I remember Schueller saying this , this is in January of 86 , because I was there when the I was at , the Challenger exploded . Of course , that was right in our neck of the woods in terms of Johnson Space Center .

And he said so I'm going to tell you , brothers , if you've never faced a crisis in your ministry , trust me , you will . And I'm sitting there , man , I'm 44 years old , it ain't going to happen to me . Well , I'll tell you what . Within about a year , it happened to me . And , like I say , I will not go into detail because that wouldn't be helpful .

But boy , it was painful , and because I was betrayed , I basically felt I don't think it was done , I don't think I don't think it was God . They meant it for evil , okay , but God meant it for good . I'll put it that way , and so that was .

That happened about a year and a half later and I'll tell you I didn't realize one , how insensitive I was to people . Two ,

how boy , it's insidious pride that catches up on you , and I it got . It took God five years to beat this hardheaded German to the point of letting go of my pride . I mean , I have a pride in Christ now that I didn't have before . I had a pride , sadly to say , in me , but it transformed my life .

In ministry Members we kept that very , very quiet in the congregation , but I did have people say I don't know everything that happened , pastor , but I'll tell you this you're a changed man , wow .

She had gone to work for the school district after the kids had grown up a bit , okay , and I said , honey , I do not want to go into the office today . And she said , honey , buck up , pray , go to the office . You got to go and I didn't want to go . I was so depressed .

So to some , I mean , I do believe it was the Holy Spirit at work in May , because at first , I'll tell you , tim , I blame myself for everything . In other words , I was the root of the problem . And then I got really good and mad and I blame them , okay , for what they did to me , because it wasn't kind . They should have come to me personally .

Then I said you know what this blame game is going to have to stop ? And God's spirit led me through that . I did talk . I don't know if you knew Pete Stanky .

Okay , well , and I didn't really share that broadly , but I'm willing to say it today , I went to him and he was incredibly helpful for me to understand family systems theory and he helped me under . He said , john , things were changing so much and you were rapidly growing and we were . And he said the system was filled with anxiety .

And when a system is filled with anxiety , people are going to begin to look around and say who's causing all this anxiety ? And you became the identified patient . I'll never forget that and that was so helpful to me . And then he added one thing . He said , john , I'm going to tell you something else . You love change until it impacts you .

Wow , is that mind boggling or what ? It was so helpful . It was so helpful .

And so , just finding myself an understanding of systems theory , it should lower your significance so that then you can keep your head about you . To be the right type of change agent , then the change has to start with us . It has to start in our hearts and in our minds individually as leaders . Anything more to say to that John ?

I had to say that If I'd have been listening , if I'd have been hearing maybe that's a better way to say it and listening , but God used it for good , so that in a sense it made it worth it . But I'll tell you what . It was life changing . And I look at the biblical characters . Hey , moses didn't get to the promised land , and how ? God ?

In different kinds of ways . But I think that's one of the dangers of leadership , of leading is you can become a bit more self-enamored than you should be . I mean , I see guys that fall within fidelity , I mean all that stuff . And this was in my 40s , tim . You know , male midlife , I'll tell you , is for real , it is for real .

It sounds trite , but it's Jesus , it's the hope of the Lord , it's that he's got a plan and a purpose for my life . And Holy Spirit , give me wisdom in this season to not make too big of a deal of myself , because the devil wants people to put us on a platform and the devil wants to tear us down off of that platform .

So what is it , john , about the 40s ? When you look at a lot of leaders I've looked at a lot of leaders they fall , often men , specifically in their 40s . What is it about that , John ?

And so I think there is something physiologically for type A or triple A personalities , because those are the ones that I've seen fall . And I tell you , what was very helpful to me is and I hope you understand this comment my wife , 50 years . She went home to be with the Lord three years ago in September . She was my intimate enemy .

She knew me better than anybody else and frankly , for that reason kind of ticked me off on more than one occasion , and she did that during my 40s and in so many ways reminded me hey , you aren't the person that other people think you are . And so , thanks a lot . I love you too . Got to think so I think that's part of it .

The other thing is , out of that experience , I went to a leadership network gathering of senior pastors in Colorado Springs and here's a group of 20 guys that talked about their life experiences , and guys were coming out of therapy , they were in their 40s too and they're talking about their accountability groups . Okay , I said because .

They said , how are you doing ? I said , man , I'm sucking air , it's a matter of fact , you know . And they said , well , who's your who's in your accountability group ? I said I don't have one . And they said you're not going to make it .

And I went home and I mean , I had this big black hole in my heart , in my gut , and I did something that was against my father's advice . Not that he gave it at that time , he had earlier . He said , son , you cannot tell other members of the congregation what you know about . Okay , things have gone , because it's the issue of confidentiality .

Well , as a result of that , I was so afraid to talk to anybody outside of the lane , my wife and then I just I sent a letter to three men in the congregation and I still have a copy . It was carbon paper , coffee . That's old school , jeff . And I said , hey , guys , I am really , I'm really wrestling with this . This black hole in my heart I need .

This was as a result of this experience and I said I'm going to ask that you meet with me regularly to hold me accountable . And I said , if I start to talk about them , you're going to say , john , we're not here , you're not here to talk about them , you're here to talk about you .

So I met with them regularly and one of those guys is still with me today and kind of the kind of a Paul , paul and Barnabas , you know , and not so much a Timothy , maybe a Paul or Priscilla and a killer .

Like Jesus actually needed it . I don't know that . I've deeply thought about that . Like Jesus is grieved , I think one of his most vulnerable points . I think it's John 6 , right , this is a hard teaching . You know who can receive it and a lot of his friends as disciples they walk away and then Jesus in his greatest moment of vulnerability , what about ?

What about you guys Are you going to go to ? And Peter kind of looks around and where are we ? Where are we going to go ? You have the words of eternal life , the vulnerability in Jesus that he modeled for us there . So we need those friends in the church and it is wise to know it takes time , it takes trust , deep trust . Who can I share what with ?

But I have that group within and outside of our church . There's two different prayer groups that I'm a part of and a close brother . Shout out to Pastor Zach Zender . Pastor Zach Zender at King of Kings in red letter .

I mean , he and I are on the phone every week or every other week talking through some some heart issue , heart issue stuff confessing sin , confessing sin and giving the gospel to one another , because we we really need it . So , yeah , I pray that more people would follow your example there , brother . Thank you , thank you , thank you .

Anything more to add on that ?

But when I opened up about my struggle with Mahogany Depression , I'll tell you . You wouldn't believe how many people talked to me and saying thanks a lot for sharing that and in fact , I minister to a number of people in midlife crisis as a result of that .

Coming out of it , several individuals have said I need to talk to you because I'm just barely hanging on , I mean and not so much , this was even after midlife just struggling with depression and reminding them that it's a journey . I mean it . I want it to go away , but it takes . It's a process . In fact , it's a lifelong process .

We all struggle with downtimes . When it gets severe , it's depression , you know . So , yeah , I think the willingness to allow ourselves to be vulnerable is so . I mean it's confession , it's living out your baptism , isn't it ? I mean daily confessing our sins and receiving absolution , but having , I mean I've got .

I've got a group now of that group of three is now seven and just whoever's here and we're primarily there just to encourage one another . Everybody , tim , needs encouragement . I was sharing with somebody just recently . I said you know what ?

Well , it was actually a small group of guys that were kind of dropping out of church and I decided , my golly , I'm going to go talk to them . And they said well , why , why , why can you say that without making us feel so bad ?

I said , well , I want to encourage you because I said I've never had an individual walk out of church on a Sunday morning and say Pastor , would you please give me a word of discouragement ? And that's the truth . And it needs to put courage in by loving Tim . I am blessed with a multitude of friends .

I mean deep friends , and I'm grateful to God , to the senior pastor , gloria Day , presently Dan Sheppman . You know , dan , he is not . I don't go to Gloria Day , I left there the day that I retired and I'm glad that I . I mean , it was important that I did that . But I tell you he does not begrudge my friendship . I try to .

I try to encourage and praise . I meet with him whenever he wants to meet , just to encourage . It's tough to be in ministry today , but it's not impossible . Yeah .

and we need we need mentors . So I'd love to you've . You've spoken and written a lot about hope and you know the best is you have to come . That's a book of hope and you know cause if in this life alone , like I said earlier , like this life , is very , very discouraging .

So , as you think about the , the resurrection of Jesus and the imminent return of Christ , the reunion with your wife , with your wife and those who have gone before . Just talk about the hope of the resurrection reality and how that just gives you so much joy .

And I said I like Labor Day and , boy , Thanksgiving is really good . Okay , I like Christmas , I like Valentine's Day , but I love Easter . Easter is my favorite day of the year . And they always say , well , we know what he's going to say this Easter . He's going to take the first minute minute to tell us all about the other holidays , but love and Easter .

I mean , hey , that's the reason I'm in ministry , I'm a Christian , this is the doctrine of the resurrection . You can take away you got to understand this in context you can take away , dog in there , any other teaching of the scripture , Okay , but don't take away the resurrection .

And I don't mean to disregard the other , obviously justification , but I mean that's the capstone . If Christ be not raised , your faith is made . You're still in your sin . You have no hope in the world . It's all about hope in the risen one and hope for right now , but fulfill when he comes again . Yeah , I love it . I love it .

But what really ? I just have to tell you I don't worry about that , you know , because Jesus lives . He lives in me . That's the presence of the Holy Spirit and that's one doctrine that became much more alive in me over the years . We're so focused on the second person of the Trinity , and rightfully so . But you know what ? He is alive today .

Again , the book of Acts . Look at all the . You know everybody agreed with Paul until he got to the resurrection , you know . But that's that's it . And so I'm not worried about dying , I'm ready . You know , we don't have to worry about it , right ? That's the hope of the world . That's the hope of the world .

The world's going to heck in a handbasket and we got the hope Right this morning . I'm finishing through with today's light for the eighth time through the scripture since I've retired . Guess what I read today the first eight verses of Revelation . One he was , he is and he's coming soon . Get ready , amen .

Christ has been raised from the dead and you will rise as well , as well as all those who and this is the heart of our evangelical fervor I'm not the one who creates your sustained faith . That's the work of the Holy Spirit . But I am called the plant seeds . Plant hope , seeds everywhere . Jesus is coming . It coming very , very soon .

Get ready , be baptized and believe the good news of Jesus Christ . And last last kind of group of questions . Here , john , I mean , we're , we're brothers in the Lutheran Church , missouri Synod . I think you , your reds , go back quite a ways , as do , as do mine . Why are you a pastor in the LCMS ?

And talk , talk about the gifts and the gaps , as you're just bringing a word to us as the Culture of the LCMS today , where do you see our strengths and opportunities for growth ?

We all graduated from River Forest my father and 20 , my brother in 51 , another brother in 57 . I'm a 64 so , and I learned great law gospel at River Forest , by the way .

Well , it opened my eyes . I'll tell you for sure , he was so good . He was so good and then come , so I Think for that reason , uh , walther was pretty much of a genius . Okay , he could be a German , hard-headed Lutheran , I know , but but at core , the man knew the gospel predominates , and that's where I'd say , the Missouri Senate , that's .

That's is our heart and soul . And frankly , I have concerns that maybe we're not living it out as well as we should . Okay , including myself . Okay , and I'll include myself in that judgment , if you will . But at best it's when we share the joy in the Lord , the hope in Christ .

I mean , it's trite , but he is the answer to sin and the problems of sin in the world , and so , but I would say , let it loose , okay , in other words , we don't have to restrict everything I get , and I'll bring up one case in point from the convention . Okay , why do we have to say it's absolutely wrong to have communion online ? You follow me .

I'm saying is that preferred ? Absolutely , it's not preferred . Okay , I think God's people need to gather regularly in the community of believers in the local congregation , and that's where the sacrament is served . Okay , it should be served , but does that mean you can't do it somewhere else ? I just I don't . I don't get that .

This is not gospel man , so I don't know if that helps , but I you know , I struggle with making things that are audiophora into laws , absolutely Right , yep .

to live by the constitution and bylaws of Synodon . Well , I guess , totally by the law , yeah , but there's still people who may have some disagreements , some different ways . We're thinking about it and we need to have sensitivity and room Doctrionally .

So I mean , the best parts of our doctrine is leaning into the tension of just life together now and not yet , and so I don't know that we embrace the mess as well as we could and should . And I'm just , I'm just praying for more humility for myself and for the body at large , that we would stay connected to those who have different opinions .

And you can go across whatever sort of spectrum aisle you want to talk about those that are more conservative , those that are rather not risk or change , and those of us that have maybe a higher risk tolerance , I think . I think that's where . That's where a lot of the disagreement can often be found is more of a personality sociology rather than deep theology .

So yeah , anything more to add there , john ?

I am saying , though , that get in to the word and we want to absolutize everything that the scripture . Early in my ministry , we studied in a big Bible class the office of the ministry , and we concurred that senators never really answered that question .

We've argued about it ever since day one , and so , okay , we've got the freedom there and we use the confessions of the church , not the Constitution , as the guiding principle , and so that's where I think we need to return .

I know the law has its appropriate function in an institution , okay , but that's the left-hand stuff , okay , and for that reason , we need to cut each other some slack . We need to get back to confession and absolution . I'll tell you our problem is we just refuse to confess sin to one another , and if you don't do that , how can you forgive right ?

But you know , in Antioch Syria it said the Holy Spirit set us apart , right , and that's when Paul took off on those missionary journeys In what they didn't come up with that great idea , right , the Holy Spirit came up with that idea .

That's where this thing is going , and so what I would pray for I don't think I've ever said this , but that you dropped the reference to your wife being let's you use the word an intimate enemy , and I've also heard of the Eve role , or the wife's role , for the man is to be a kind adversary .

We've developed a very passive , aggressive behavior , response toward one another and we don't sit through the confession , absolution oriented challenge that is so necessary for leaders at every single level to have kind adversaries . So let's pray for that , john . Any closing comments ? Man , this has been so much fun . I could talk to you for a long time .

I'm late for a staff meeting , john , I got to get going but no , yeah , this has been great . Any final ?

Proper distinction and application of law and gospel , but above all else , let the gospel predominate . Walter was right then . He's still right today . Thanks so much for the privilege of being with you today . God richly bless you and those who listen to this podcast that they'll be blessed through it . I've really prayed about this .

I hope I've made some contribution and I'll close with this thought , if I may . I don't want to keep it too late . Recently I read where someone said he reads any number of books . Okay , and I became . I read a lot of books in my life . He said something that was so helpful to me .

He said you know what , when I read a book , all I hope to get out of the book is one major point or quote .

I'm not going to remember most of what was written and that's my prayer for this podcast you can disregard everything we've said if you can get one good thing out of this sharing time Okay , that's my prayer , is that somebody's life and ministry will be blessed as a result of our gracious conversation . Love you Well , I'm blessed .

So , leader , if you're isolated , if you need prayer , reach out to us at Unite leadershiporg . We'd love to come alongside you . You are not alone . We're better together and confess just our need for deep relationship . That's what I'm taking from our conversation today . I need the vulnerable relationships or else I'm not going to make it .

I'm not going to , but we're going to make it . So thanks for being that example to us . This is lead time sharing is caring , like subscribe , comment wherever it is you take in podcasts , and we promise to continue to have , hopefully , joy filled , jesus filled conversations with leaders like like John . God bless your brother , love you .

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