What Does 'Confessional Lutheran' Really Mean? with Reverend Dr. Joel Okamoto

So you are going to have a fantastic time listening in today as Dr Okamoto shares a little bit about politics and the role of the church .

We talk about confessional Lutheranism centered in the Jesus is Lord statement , kind of the primary creedal confession , and Dr Okamoto was the first professor that I in my mind's eye remember kind of disrupting my theologian of glory and centering me and us as theologians of the cross based in scripture and also the Lutheran confession .

So you're going to have a lot of fun today . Jack , is there one thing about the conversation today that you're just like whoa , this just rocked my world , anything ?

The label might not be useful , but the concept really is .

I want to try to make sense of it , uh , and so what I , what I would call confessionalism is a way of understanding who a Christian is , who Christians are and what does it mean for them to live in the world in terms of a confession of faith , not in terms of , say , an institution that'd be like Roman Catholicism , not necessarily in terms of liturgy it

doesn't exclude those but rather it focuses on confession of faith , and that's because believers naturally confess . If you are devoted to something , love , something , rely on someone , you make it known , you know , and so you can see in the New Testament confessing Jesus as Lord , as the Christ , as the Savior , as the Son of God .

Those things came out readily , and then you can see in the history of the church asking someone to be baptized and someone's going to become a Christian . Do you believe in God , the Father Almighty ? Yeah . Do you believe in Jesus Christ , his only son , our Lord ? You bet Now , christian . Do you believe in God , the Father Almighty ? Yeah .

Do you believe in Jesus Christ , his only son , our Lord ? You bet now . Do you believe in the Holy Spirit ? You know the resurrection of the body , the life everlasting ? I certainly do . Can I be baptized now ? Yes , uh , it just comes naturally . And that , uh . Then , when it came to the Reformation , they recognized that well one .

They had to make a confession . They had to say here's how things are , here's who we are , here's how we live . That's how the Augsburg Confession gets its name . It's a confession in that way , and that became then a way by which people who call themselves Lutheran do this , but other groups do as well . And it was just exploring that .

What do we mean by having a confession ? There are ideas like confessional subscription that sometimes scare people off , but once you realize this , it makes sense . What does it mean to be confessional today ?

And it's not so much about the label , but there's an idea behind it which actually makes a lot of sense , which is helpful in , especially in a situation like contemporary United States , where traditional identities and those kinds of things , institutions you know , not so important . But is Lutheran just another you know , another denomination or something of that ?

No , it's certainly something more than that , and even though Lutheran label is not the point , Jesus is , and so let's attempt to explore that .

Eastern Orthodox would say that there's a whole bunch of Christians that disagree about a whole bunch of stuff , but they unite on the idea that Christ is Lord . Right .

What does Jesus mean for us and our righteousness ? It's all up to Jesus . It's by grace alone , and those who believe in Jesus it's by grace alone and those who believe in Jesus . It's by faith alone , and so it's an elaboration . Either . What's what it assumes or presupposes , or what's entailed in making this confession ?

So it proposes to be a right way of being Christian . Anyone who wants to claim to be Christian in a right way would be consistent with this . They may want to talk about other things or they may have other interests , that that certainly is true , but it's meant simply this is what it means to be Christian .

And so , christians are people , to put it in a really general way , they're people who live according to a particular account of everything . Someone has offered his name is Paul Griffiths . He's a philosopher and theologian . This has a definition of religion .

Religion is a notoriously difficult word to use because it means so many things , but when you talk about a hindu , a buddhist , a muslim , a christian , uh , what is it that they all share that leads people to think oh , the word religion fits . It isn't god . It isn't necessarily eternal life for salvation , in like what christians understand , but it is .

All of them have an account of everything . All of them say here's how things really are and this is how the truth is . This is just the way the world is and it really is meaningful for understanding who we are , what we're up to , what is good . Uh , now , when christians do this , they relate this in the form of a story you know .

Well , let me just say you know , christians do have an account of everything we say in , say , the Nicene Creed . I believe in one God , the Father Almighty , the maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible . That's an account of everything . But if you're going to be asked , well , can you say more about that ?

Can you tell me more about that ? You start to tell a story . In the beginning , god created the heavens and the earth . He spoke , and it was . He made all things and when he looked down at it was he was good , he was very good , and so on and so forth . Things go wrong . God resolves to redeem it . You get the story of Abraham and Israel .

You come to Jesus . Who , well , he came to bring God's rule and reign . That's the kingdom of God . He comes to say God is going to take his world back , so repent , believe . Now we've just gone through when we're recording this Holy Week and Easter . Things didn't go so well for Jesus .

He was rejected , he suffered , he was crucified , but God raised him from the dead . And although Jesus is ascended to heaven , no , god continues to reign and eventually Jesus will come back and finish what he started . And that's the story . And it leads you then to say , well , there's just one God , he's the story .

And it leads you to them to say , well , there's just one god , he's the god and father of jesus , jesus , one he appointed , made lord over all things . Those who hear him , believe him , trust in him . You know they are on the right side of everything .

God will give them eternal life , and so on and so forth , and so so the confession Jesus is Lord is attached to this story . That story is essential . But then you know , that story will tell you different things . So , for instance , it tells you about you asked about justification , what does it mean to be right with God ?

It means it's all up to Jesus and what he says . So it's by grace alone , it's through the word , it's through the gospel , and it's by grace alone , it's through the word , it's through the gospel and it's received by faith . And , uh , does this , does this make a difference ? Sure it does .

If you've been promised eternal life and salvation , you're going to be a different person . So we get our doctrine of sanctification . What's the church ? What's the church ?

Are people who have heard this word and believe it , and and the like , and you get , you know , kind of the uh , the articulation of this , and you know , the lutheran confession is simply an articulation of this , but to talk about differences or where we're coming from , it rests really at the kind of the level of that story .

So what are you saying that story is and how does it get worked out ? And you talk about ecumenical dialogue . I think it rests there where the , the confession then is kind of our summary of if you've heard this and believe this , of course you'll think this , sure you'll do that . Does that help in that ? Yeah , I think so .

It requires us to get into the particularities to talk about for us .

You know the sacraments and maybe I've been saying for years , I think one of the gifts , the primary gift from the Lutheran's perspective , is this reawakening of God for us , the means of grace , word and sacrament , passive faith , justification , just returning to those things , but then maybe having a conversation around the work of the Holy Spirit , the power and

authority of the Holy Spirit . Maybe we have some things to learn there . Every time we enter into this macro story we then say this is sin .

I think we want to draw distinctions around the particularities of our cultural context , around the story , and say the particularities here should , should totally be seen in your , in your space , and I could get into the particularities of then how it's the , how the church lives , it lives it out , um , in diverse contexts .

We're not disagreeing necessarily as lutherans now on the what I hope not . Jesus is Lord and the grand narrative . We would all agree . But then I think , the how it gets lived out in respective contexts , cross-culturally , et cetera . There's some wrestle there , there's some tension there . Anything more to say about the how Joel ?

So he brought up about the means of grace . According to this story , how do you know you're one of God's people ? He has to say so . What is baptism ? Making you a disciple of Christ , making you a child of God , giving you the Holy Spirit ? It follows right from the story . And so to think it's just my act , you know that's a problem .

Holy communion is when we share one body and one blood and we are being made one people . To think it's just a memorial , that's a problem In terms of the story . That's why it matters so much . On the other hand , how to baptize . We should do it in a way which actually promotes faith and faithfulness for the one being baptized . Amen In some contexts .

Yeah , you do want immersion . Not that you have to , but rather , yeah , you want to live that out In some places . How do we administer the lord's supper ? It's one thing to administer it correctly , but how do you administer it well , uh , and you know you want it .

So it awakens , strengthens faith , it makes people recognize yeah , I am with god , god's people , god's son , and so how we administer , but allows you to get certain ideas , this would be better than others . You know the adiaphora , you know those are the so-called indifferent matters . Those are the things neither commanded nor forbidden .

Those are the things you have to think about . If it's commanded , don't think about it , just do it . If it's forbidden , do not think about . If it's commanded , don't think about it , just do it . If it's forbidden , do not think about it yeah , yeah , no , it's the adiaphora they actually have to work through .

Uh , and you know , maybe this is missouri senate , but too often they're just whatever I want to do . That's not right .

It's what is good for you know the gospel , for faith , for faithfulness in that situation and , uh , so you know the confessions tell you all right , here you got to stay on track , but here here it gives you a trajectory also to to work in I've heard it described that working through adiaphora is is a process of creating space for the gospel .

So then , our , our salvation , as you said , depends on his status as being Lord , not as our statuses co-savior , co- , co-lords , whatever . Whatever that might be , um , right it's . It's a confession of entire dependence upon god in christ as our lord yes , yeah , so , yeah .

It's it's not just a hindrance , it's not like it's more than a disease that makes you unable to be righteous . No , it is unrighteousness in the terms of unbelief .

Well , maybe let me shape this question this way how , as you've looked at , culture and the devolving polarized and this is going to lead us into darkness long coming . We're getting into the politics in the church . How is your understanding of shaping the theological Lutheran mind of your student evolved 25 years ago to today ? How is it different ?

And many things are still the same , obviously , but how is it different ?

Uh , 30 years ago there was a book , or maybe a little bit more 30 years ago , a book published called culture wars by james davidson hunter , and uh , so I I saw an interview , I read an interview with him , uh , on the 30th , but when it was 30 years publication and he was asked you know what's changed ?

And he said well , back in the 90s there was still , you know , biblical hermeneutics and and theology , not anymore , it's just survival . And , uh , it's , it's , that's certainly true . Uh , so it one sense , uh , the idea that christians can try to retrieve , you know , the idea that Christians can try to retrieve , you know an allegedly good old days .

Well , that's never a good idea anyway , but that's gone . But there is a lot of confusion and all sorts of people feel this in one sense , the church has a wonderful opportunity . It has real challenges .

There's no doubt about that , because the church for so long was used to having a position of privilege and getting over that , I mean , so we don't even know how much .

He's the one who spoke about waiting for a new Benedict , which the idea of the Benedict option comes from , but another person who spoke about this was Friedrich Nietzsche . He has the story of his madman , and God is dead . The madman , according to the story , comes into the town square with a lantern . It's broad daylight . Why ?

Well , because God is dead and it's going to get dark . And the darkness they're talking about , though or Nietzsche is is the sense . You know the touchstones , the landmarks by which we guided our lives . You know they're disappearing , and what would you get ? Well , you would get actually confusion and conflict , and you can see that . But who wants that ?

I mean , virtually no one does . And Christians ? Well , we're believers that this is not the end of it . This is God's world , and he's going to have his way , and we've been promised life in the world to come . In the meantime , nothing can separate us from the love of God and Christ Jesus .

So we can live by hope and we ought to and we have something we can share with others in a time which is increasingly troubled and hopeless . It doesn't guarantee anything , but rather than being fearful about how things are different , let's remember , let's have confidence in .

We know how things will be , it'll be good for us and that God and his grace would have all men , all people , to be his and enjoy this and let's go for it .

What is the role today in the church ? Kind of modeling for the world , because I think we're way close to the book of Acts than we are to the Reformation ages and the season of enlightenment . So go back . How did they do it ? They consistently preached a kingdom that was above and beyond .

And we're so prone , as fallen human sinners , to lower ourselves to live with these faulty gods money , politics , power , petty power , plays , etc . To kind of give us significance and meaning and it just never , it never satisfies .

So talk a little bit more about politics , being in the dark and how the Christians need this new way of being and seeing the world .

No , that is the ultimate political statement . It is when you , when you read the book of luke , you mentioned acts but started luke .

Uh , you know , zechariah is introduced by talking about herod , and then the birth of jesus by talking about caesar augustus . But what's the point ? No , no , an entirely new and wonderful political , political reality is about to dawn . And uh , so when ?

When jesus is being crucified , the thief , we often call him penitent , but he's not penitent , he's fearful , he , he actually believes that the man next to him who's being crucified this is not the end dying on the cross is not going to stop him . He actually is the lord , he really is the king of israel .

Uh , so he's going to come back , and these people here are mocking him . They're going to be the first to go . So , jesus , remember him when you come into your kingdom , and actually , jesus , doesn't one better . Today you'll be with me in paradise or on the road to emmaus . You know why are you guys so downcast ? Well , it was jesus .

We thought he was the one come to redeem Israel . His long answer is I am . Yeah , I have heard that that's right , and therefore , the kingdoms , the politics of this world , are they a gift of God ? Is this how he rules things ? The answer is yes . And is it messy ? Oh yeah , and it can get worse .

It has been worse , and so let's thank God for what he does accomplish through this . Let's take our responsibilities now , but let's recognize , whatever happens , the whole thing is under his control . His way of controlling , his way of dealing with it is full of love and grace and mercy and abundance and righteousness and peace , and it's found in Jesus .

And let us , let's pray Come , lord Jesus . Let's look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come . Let's live like it and and be willing to to share it so you talk about politics , uh , and christians connected .

Well , yes , things go a certain way . They don't go just by themselves . Christians are convinced someone is behind it all , and we know it to be Jesus . He's the one God appointed to do this . All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me , and that so , in the long run , that's the politics . Baptism is a political , political act .

It is to belong to this one is he is going to take care of you and the like , and so confession is simply confessing I'm with Jesus , yeah , yeah . But then , in the meantime , christians know we're fellow creatures with everybody else . We have our responsibilities and we ought to , not to shy away from them . We should do what we can , knowing not so much .

We should do it for the well-being of our neighbors . It's not for Jesus , it's his world anyway .

How does that affect or how does that cause us to think maybe differently as we approach ?

Anyway , it turns out the atheist couple in our block . They went around , they invited everybody to come to their house . They would feed us , give us wine , and let's not talk about this , let's not look at everybody else's sign . I remember thinking at the end well , these guys know how to do politics .

No , we should think about this in a more local , personal kind of thing . There's this apparatus . We just kind of I'm not saying it doesn't matter , but it's much more about how we treat our neighbors and whether we want to invest in them and our lives together . Having said that , well , you have to do the best you can , but that's a messy business .

How many promises are going to be kept ? Who's actually doing these things ? It's .

By how I vote ? And there's sometimes many right ways to think about that , Right ?

And the Holy Spirit is the comforter , caretaker , and then he moves us , drives us from you know , reception . I'm just thinking two kinds of righteousness here . Right , I mean receiving everything from God and then , in the power of the Holy Spirit , releasing it generously for the sake of my neighbor , that they would know the love of God too .

You say this in a darkness , long and coming . You say the problem is that we often don't know that , we don't know what we're talking about . And then you have this awesome Harawas quote . Morally speaking , the first issue is never what we are to do , but what we should see . And I'll pause right there .

I think we've been talking all about what we should see . Now that the Holy Spirit has come and created faith in us , we see how holy , unworthy we are of God's love and how loving he is to give it on behalf of Jesus . The quote goes on . Here is the way it works .

You can act only in the world that you can see and I love how he finishes here and you must be taught to see by learning to say , must be taught to see by learning to say .

And here's one of my struggles to get into the politics of the LCMS I don't think we're seeing always correctly because we're not speaking with one another who may have nuanced , adiaphora , contextual differences . Definitely they have contextual differences .

We all , the melting pot of the United States of America , there's so many diverse micro communities , but I don't know that we're speaking to one another , uniting around the story and then learning to say charitably if we're not seeing clearly , but often we don't even know because we're so stuck .

Pride creates hubris and it just keeps us stuck in our own narrow way of seeing rather than the expansiveness of what the Holy Spirit gives to us . But to work that out we must learn to speak with one another more consistently . Say more on that , joel .

But the other way might be if we can write better , if we can think better , more clearly , more fully , more honestly , then maybe we will be better . And it's something along those lines that there is something to that . And so let's make the effort , let's expand our vocabularies , let's learn how to interact those kinds of things , those kind of habits .

And I did make in that article the point that the church itself struggles from this , even in her own discourse , much less the wider political one . And so maybe we want to start there .

Where do you think we have to grow as we learn to say what we see ?

And they gave an answer which you might say is doctrine correct , but it couldn't help a child learn to talk about God . It didn't give a very good answer to who is Jesus Christ and we're talking about God and Jesus here , and because it was just here's the right answer , it wasn't taking those kind of questions seriously .

Now , of course , when there was Christendom , you didn't have to take those seriously . Everybody knows who God is , Everybody knows who Jesus is , but not anymore , that's right . No , we have to learn to take really basic questions like what is a good answer to the question who is your God ? What's a good answer ? What are some good answers to the question ?

What is your God ? What's a good answer ? What are some good answers to the question ? What is the Bible ? You know , the Bible is some kind of value that we have and so we have to say , oh , it's this . We have our own pet answer it's the Word of God . Well , of course that's true , but there are different ways to unpack that .

And why do you want to say that ? Let's learn to think about what are some good answers ? And that depends , you know you bring up about context . What are you trying to accomplish with your answer ? Yeah , another is defining things , most Christian concepts , I think all of them .

They're just summaries of certain ways of thinking , certain ways of acting , certain ways of responding . So , for instance , to justify , what's to justify ? Well , we should be able to not only say it's to make right , declare right , be in the right , do right by , but we should also be able to illustrate that . I use this A man buys a car and it's a lemon .

If you're not from the United States , that means a car doesn't work . The car does not do right by the man . It does not justify itself to the man . A man buys a car and his wife hates it . I tried this out with my wife and she said he buys another car . That's exactly right . He does not do right by his wife .

He I tried this out with my wife and she said he buys another car . That's exactly right . He does not do right by his wife . He does not justify himself to her . That's all we mean by that . When we're talking about justification by grace , it would be you know , a man has an affair and he's sorry . He wants things to be right with his wife .

What should he do ? Furs Diamonds wants things to be right with his wife . What should he do ? Furs diamonds don't even think about it . If , if it's going to be right , it's all up to her . You mean by grace alone , and he'd better not forget it . I did share that once .

I shared this regular with class and a guy who had heard it before said he , his wife said diamonds and furs wouldn't hurt , and I said I said propitiation yeah , yeah , yeah , that's what that is .

It's exactly what it is and god's provided that too so god actually goes out and forgives us , and then he has also , in his love , given his son as propitiation for our sins . God doesn't do it because he's angry , he's wrathful , he does it because he loves us Romans 5 , 1 John 4 .

No , this is the extent to which God loves you and all , and we should be able to explain these things and bring them out , as opposed to just . This is our slogan , this is our platitude . I mean , it's a wonderful slogan to have , don't get me wrong , but we should do better than that . And so I mean talking about in terms of the church .

We have to be able to explain ourselves and relate them these kind of concrete ways , and then live like we believe them .

There's's a propensity to put labels on one another within the church which are unhelpful because the definition to the label is not clearly articulated . Mission , confession , tradition , contemporary , all of these different things . Well , you're that type of a Lutheran , you're this type of a Lutheran . Well , we're not even creating the space to dialogue about it .

What is it about human beings that want to create labels to put people in categories so they don't have to think or talk to them ? I see it consistently , even in invitations to come on . Thank you for saying yes . By the way , the bells of the Holy Spirit are ringing in the background . It's great Church , this saying yes .

By the way , the bells of the Holy Spirit are ringing in the background . It's great Church . This is church , right ? But what is it about Even some people saying I don't know that I can talk to them because they're that type of , they're in that camp ? I just think it's very dysfunctional . Any thoughts on that , joel ?

In other words , you're not someone , you're something , and that's what that kind of that's happened throughout , of course , human history , across cultures . That doesn't make it right . That's just evidence of sin . But no , that is not treating someone like a person .

Is this calling people to chapel right now ? Is this what's going on ?

He regards these rules as the best antidote to character when we , when we are going down this path to build labels but we want those labels we put aside so we can maybe learn from someone who has maybe a diverse understanding or it's on a polarizing topic . Here are his four rules , and I'd love to have you go deeper on these .

The first rule is this as you're talking to someone who you have maybe put a label on , made them something rather than someone , you should first attempt to re-express your target's position so clearly , vividly and fairly that your target says thanks . I wish I'd thought of putting it that way . I love it .

You should then list point number two , list any points of agreement , especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement . So find that point of commonality . You should then mention anything you've learned from your target , your partner in dialogue . This is helpful .

This gives actually the appropriate amount of okay , they see me , they know me , they are treating me as someone , they've at least heard my perspective , and it's only then , according to Rappaport's rules , it's only then that you're permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism . I think this is a helpful tool for us today in the church .

Anything more to add to that , joel ?

You might say objective , it's not personal , it's about this , and I can tell you it's about this , because I can tell you this is what it means , right , yeah , and yeah , you made a good point when you said this , and I agree , you know I learned something new , but I got to say this .

But you're in a much better position then , because you know the other person has been been treated with , with the appropriate kind of respect . It isn't just I don't agree , you're wrong . No , here , here we're actually trying to get somewhere . There's a possibility of moving , moving past all that .

Now , maybe not , but at least you haven't immediately ended the conversation by saying here's how you're wrong . That almost never works .

I just received an email from a buddy Tell me the 15 , because he's the author . I'm not going to . From a buddy Tell me , tell me the 15 , because he's author . I'm not going to get into who it is , but tell me the 15 district presidents who would be open to you know receiving what I wrote .

You know , and on the one hand I'm like , okay , I know some of the guys and ask somebody you know and but even that is kind of like it doesn't feel good . You know , like all 35 , I hope would want to learn all 35 districts and then circuits , et cetera .

You know , starting from the top of our president , if we're learning , the church must take the posture of humility and learning . I don't know that we have any other , any other choice and I do believe the Lutheran church , missouri synod , because I learned . I just want to honor you because I've learned from theologians like you .

I'm who I am as a pastor and a leader because of how I was shaped at the seminary by theologians like you and how I was shaped in the congregation . But I still have more to learn , like I always will have , like I always will have .

If you , if you narrow in in one discipline , this should create ample humility in the other disciplines and curiosity rather than condemnation .

And so I just see a spirit of the church going into refutation mode , building labels and ultimately it's it's keeping the individual , and maybe the pocket of individuals , from from learning , and that's very sad because that's not the way of Jesus . Jesus , this is kind of crazy . Jesus entered into human flesh as a , as a co-journer and a and a learner .

Jesus asked questions . Isn't this interesting ? You mentioned the , the road to Emmaus , which is Easter Sunday , by the way , just preached on this a couple , couple of days ago . A lot of times we maybe separate it . No , no , no .

Jesus has appeared to the women , appeared to Peter , and now in Luke's account , in Luke 24 , he's appearing to Cleopas and this unnamed guy . I love it . So , this unnamed guy , so you and I , we can find ourselves maybe on that road and Jesus meets us there , Insert our name there and Jesus asks a question . Right , jesus asks a question .

He's kept from being revealed for us , I think , so blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed . He then asked what are you guys talking about ? He just wants to enter into the story . Jesus is curious . Yeah , then , are you the only like ? There's this tone , I think from the guys from Cleopas ? Are you the only ?

one in Jerusalem who doesn't know the things that have happened this day ? And Jesus doesn't say well , I'm done with you . You know , here I am . I definitely know , right , no , no , no . Jesus says what , what things ? I think it's kind of humorous , right , what , what things ?

And then they enter into their understanding of the story , not completely understanding why , and then Jesus gives his oh , let me tweak some things here . Let me get my perspective on on what Jesus came to do and why it was necessary for him to suffer and to die . Jesus is a learner . Any , any closing comments on the humility of Christ .

This has been so much fun For me too .

So , for instance , the Canaanite woman sometimes said well , jesus was testing her faith . I don't see it that way . I don't see how he can be reading the Gospel of Matthew . Where he comes , he's going to save his people , israel , from their sins . Wise men come from the east looking for the one born king of the Jews .

He tells the disciples not to go to you know , only go to the Israelites . Well , because , like the woman says , he's the son of David . Yes , I am Israel's king , people like you , a king and a woman . They were supposed to be wiped out by the way , right .

No , he doesn't , but he's like no you're right , I didn't come for you , but she persists , she persists . You know he calls her a dog . She responds it's like , well , she's like woman you have . You really do have great faith , sure , of course , and we see Jesus reacting and responding .

And he's our brother , he's our , you know , he is our Lord lord , but he's also our brother and , uh , we should learn from from that . He doesn't have , you know , just a snappy answer now , of course , sometimes he does but well for the pride , for the prideful .

There are other ways you can think about God , but all of our thinking about God and how we deal with him and how we represent him , how we are his children here on earth , runs through Jesus . And let's follow Jesus .

Go and make it with the power of the Holy Spirit and His word , his love for you and for the world . A fantastic day . Thank you so much , brothers .

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