How Tradition Shapes the Believer with Mark Stern

Each podcast confronts real-time struggles facing the local church and a post-Christian culture . Step into the action with the ULC at uniteleadershiporg . This is Leigh Time .

Today I get the privilege of hanging out with Mark O Stern .

Mark is an attorney and a member of the Board of Regents at Concordia Seminary in St Louis , and this conversation Mark and I sat in the same row at the Synod Convention a few months back and this conversation is in response to what he wrote in the Lutheran Clarion alternate routes to ministry , not the last frontier .

I thought it was thoughtful as I was reading it . I have some different opinions , but we're going to have a conversation today that centers on the main thing , which is Jesus .

And also , just a caveat I speak for Tim and Mr Stern is going to speak for Mr Stern and , as you said at the end of this , what you say and what we say today doesn't reflect on behalf of Concordia Seminary or even your role as a Board of Regents . So we're going to have a fun conversation .

I'd love to just get us going , mark , tell us your LCMS kind of origin story and how you've been led to serve in such a variety of roles within the church . I really appreciate your time , brother . Thank you , thank you .

I grew up in a Baptist background and attended a Baptist Church , baptist General Conference , which is a Swedish pietist denomination and when I was in college , I think , god led me to say I'm going to go to church every Sunday if I don't do anything else . And I did do that .

It was a fairly typical middle of the road Baptist church and some folks when I was in high school went off to a place called Willow Creek , which you may have heard of . And they decided hey , this is great , this is what we want to do .

So they took out the pews , they put in chairs , they took out the choir loft , they put in some plexiglass and so forth , and my personal preference is not for that type of worship . But I was looking for something that was biblically based and more traditional style of liturgical worship . Well , I didn't understand it at that time , but liturgical type of worship .

So I was in college and a friend of mine said well , you should try Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod , because they are biblically informed but they have a liturgical worship service . And so I did . I attended University Lutheran Church in Champaign . I was not confirmed at that time . I got confirmed later , after I was out of law school .

But that was my introduction to Lutheranism and I found it as a Baptist , a former Baptist , great comfort in the law and gospel distinction and in the fact that Christ has done for us what is needed . We do not have to make a decision , we do not have to have a personal faith experience . It is done , it is completed . So that was a great blessing .

Obviously , as a Baptist , you struggle with real presence , with baptismal regeneration , but I was catechized and taught and I became an adult comfort man .

So then , after I was up back in the Chicago area after school , I was confirmed in Springfield , illinois , and then I was nominated a couple times for various things in the early 2000s and I was elected in 2010 to the Concordia University Chicago Board of Regents , and I served three terms on there , for a total of nine years .

I ended up being the chairman for a couple years and at the end of that I was appointed to the seminary board , so I'm encouraging everybody . It took me nine years to get through River Forest , but I finally made it to the seminary , so in any event , so I've been on the seminary since 2018 . And I currently serve as the secretary .

And it's not like our Baptist brothers and sisters or Catholic et cetera don't have that . But the Lutheran distinction of law and gospel is so crucial . We're walking through Galatians right now , mark , as in a study format , and how you're like man Luther . Luther took so much from Galatians . And why did Paul write Galatians ?

It's because something is getting in the way of the gospel . There's confusion between what makes us right before God . It's not the law . The law has been fulfilled by Jesus and now His righteousness covers us of all of our sins . And now we've been made new by the baptismal promise , the identity in Christ . That is such a powerful story .

We need more brothers and sisters to come into this confession , man . I think it's very , very powerful . We need more babies , yes . We need to raise up good families , for sure , but I think there are a lot of folks in your position in just the wider evangelical church that need the confession of Orthodox Lutherans today . What are your thoughts there , mark ?

I think the richness of our theology does attract a lot of people because we have that systematic understanding of God's word and the exposition of that in the confessions and the emphasis on the truth . So I think that is very attractive to many and the Holy Spirit will work through those means .

I'll go down this path right now . How do we brand and market ourselves ? That sounds like a secular term , it's just . How do we share the story in a winsome way today ? I think that's one of the desires of the ULC , and even having these conversations Like let's make Lutheranism cool and attractive again and it's not , I guess .

On the other hand , it's not very attractive because you're a wretch , You're going to come and you're going to hear law , the law that kills , and then hopefully you hear with greater predominance the gospel which makes us alive .

Anything about the branding of and I know even on the board , like the branding , the marketing of Concordia Seminary , as we try to elevate Orthodox Lutheranism today in a non legalistic or phariseical way for sure . So anything to say on that line , mark .

I think we , from my standpoint , it's important that we be authentic in terms of who we are . What is our heritage , what is our common ? Not only our confessional heritage , but our worship , our liturgy . Obviously , that's something that's very important in our congregation , many congregations is the Catholicity .

At one time one could go into almost any Lutheran church in the country . You would have a common service . You'd have very similar understanding of the way that the service goes , because all those liturgical parts are coming directly from scripture . So obviously that's changed .

There's not a divine commandment to use one particular liturgical form , but there is also a great benefit in that . So I think , if we present the truth and the fullness of our theology , I think that is who we are , that is who God has called us to be , and I think that's ultimately the most effective .

There's a desire to have programs , there's a desire to have initiatives . I was in preparation for this podcast . I was looking at all the task force reports that have come out and we can analyze ourselves to death , but I think we just present our theology , we present the word and we let that work . That's what we did during the periods of Greatest Growth .

It was a predominantly Judeo-Christian ethic that was in the world and we were offering the Lutheran hour and the brand of the LCMS was really growing . You can look at a couple of different iterations in our almost 200 year history now where , wow , we were just starting churches , raising up leaders ,

we were blowing and going and starting a lot of universities , seminaries et cetera . It was . Now we're just kind of wrestling with whoa . The world has just changed so much . Our confession is not going to change . But then you go to the worship conversation .

We're not , you know wide angle of Saxons , are not the major and are decreasing even so , what is confessional Lutheranism ? Look like in America when you've got , you know , immigration and folks from a variety of different cultures , especially in our urban centers today . That's a very complex thing that I think we should have some charity for one another .

It's not our grandpa's , it's not our grandpa's LCMS in terms of the landscape of the culture that we're trying to do , to do life in , and I think that's where we kind of get crossed with one another . I'm praying for contextual hospitality .

You know we're under the same confession and yet doing ministry in urban LA , for instance , is radically different than rural South Dakota . Anything to say toward that , mark ?

They have any number of languages there . They have attracted people with a liturgical form of worship . So again , I think it goes back to authenticity and being who we are . We , our confessions are a true and correct exposition of the word of God . I think we , we continue to present that and again , the word will be efficacious .

Obviously , luther wanted to do things in the language of the people and that is something that's an imperative . So people , you know , how will they know if they've not heard and understood ? So , certainly , linguistically , that's something needs to be looked at .

In terms of changing up the , the ordo , so-called ordo , or the , the common service , I would not be in favor of that because I think , again , there is a catholicity with our brothers and sisters around the country , around the world .

This is something the church has had , not maybe with this particular musical setting , but the general format has been similar , so I would , I would maybe push back a little bit on that , but I think I wasn't . I wasn't necessarily .

You know , we do a lot of work with the working , poor and homeless here and and so caring for their felt needs is is necessary and and elevating them up so that they then have the , the sense of community and safety and and a full belly , if you will , so that their soul can be filled with with the word of God .

I guess that's the way we reach people with the gospel will look different as we get , as we get them toward the font , toward the altar and pulpit , and and I'm in agreement with you in terms of connecting and staying connected to the Ordo of the divine service , given maybe diversity in worship music that may present itself , but I'm invocation through the

benediction , mark , I'm I'm a big fan and everything in between . Here the bells talk about the Catholicity . There's going to be seven bells right now as chapel is getting going in our , in our context . Today it's a day of rest for our kiddos gathering to hear , hear the word of God . So let's let's go into your article on pastoral formation .

What led you to really care Because obviously you're at the seminary on the board there what led you to have this deep conviction in care for pastoral formation in general ?

So obviously , with that , with substantial financial investments , with figuring out what are we going to do with the people's offerings , how are we going to be good stewards ? We need to understand what is the future of the seminary . We look at the broader higher ed climate . There are residential brick and mortar colleges that are failing .

There are some online colleges that are expanding , although some have had their problems as well , as we saw with Portland and other things . And what is we need to understand before we make these plans and commitments ? What is it we are trying to do ? What are our distinctives ?

Why are we here as Concordia Seminary and Dr Egger , in his inaugural address and his address at the convention this summer , which I think you heard , which is now available in pamphlet form , makes a very strong

case for residential formation , and that is not , as perhaps , the exclusive route . I think I want to lay the groundwork . We recognize the need for alternate routes , for other ways of preparing pastors besides the traditional MDiv route . So this is not an all or nothing discussion , but it is looking at what is the optimal .

And , as we understand , as we're about to embark on , you know , a major capital campaign , construction of new housing both for married students and single students is this , what is this going to look like in five to 10 years ?

And I feel very strongly , and I think our board and our administration feel strongly , that we do need a strong and preeminent place for residential formation and I attempted to convey that in the article .

And you say under some limited circumstances , perhaps the exception cannot be the rule . Yeah , say more about that analogy . You kind of you kind of move without analogy of rural Alaska throughout the article . How did you come to that ?

In my profession years ago , you had what was called reading law , where it was essentially an apprenticeship model , and that we moved away from that .

We went to law school , which was initially a two year program , then became a three year program , where you get a Juris doctorate and , rather than working essentially in the mentorship model apprenticeship one on one you get to go to a law school .

You get to hear from a variety of voices , you get to interact with peers in a learning community , and then you take that and you do go out then into the , into the field , work for a law firm or work in some sort of setting , and you get a great benefit out of that . But you have that foundation , you have that sort of communal formation experience .

And I would look back . I was on the 1303 task force that was authorized at the 2016 convention and then reported in 2018 . It's in the 2019 convention workbook . I'm looking at pages 376 and 377 . And the I'm going to read . I try not to read too much here , but I'm going to read a couple quotes .

It says normally the church seeks to educate within the larger confessional context mandated by scripture . It should never reduce education to what is presently usable or feasible in a single location or community . The church's existence is a testimony to the great consensus .

A community of learners gathered together in one place enables those learners to be intensively trained . It goes on . I'm not going to read anymore , person to person relationships being important . People are distracted with digital devices , with the cares of the world .

I mean , even for the two of us , the fact that I was able to meet you in person , albeit briefly . I feel I have a different dynamic in my relationship with you than being a disembodied voice or image on a screen . So that is . That is really the concern that I think I have and I think many on our board have .

Again , I don't speak for the board , but certainly we're investing in residential formation and that is that is the strategic direction of the seminary .

I was formed at Concordia Seminary , st Louis , so this is a complex , this is a very complex topic and I also I also now , as a 15 year on the ground pastor , having having the privilege mark of mentoring well over a dozen Vickers , both SMP , cmc as well as , as well as residential , the majority of them actually being being residential I have deep respect for

the formation process and for the academics , the , the resident theologians right , who raise up other residents , theologians , you know that's , that's the , those who are called the Word and sacrament I have . I have deep respect for the brain trust , if you will , at Concordia Seminary and Concordia Seminary Theological Seminary and Fort Wayne . All that .

All that being said , one of the the biggest struggles for me is just looking at the data and and looking at what we , what we currently have and what we're going to need to stem the tide of of the decline of congregations , the closure , closure of congregations .

We had , we had Joe , joe Baron on , and he wrote a book which , by the time this era is going to be , have been out for quite a while now the ends of the LCMS , and not the end of the LCMS , but the ends .

That the purpose , the , the goal of the LCMS and and just looking at the , we're looking at a 9% rate of congregations that that don't have , don't have pastors and and you need , you need various churches that don't have pastors , you know , but it's if you're looking at economics and unemployment rate right , he does this kind of data it's we'd be in a recession

type of a season right now for us in the LCMS . So can we just be honest about what we have and then the plans toward filling pulpits into the future ? I'd love to . I'd love to get your because you , you can have a little bit of an insider track Are . Are we looking at the wider trends ?

I have have to believe yes and what the enrollment necessity is for us to stem , stem the tide ? I'd so , and I say all this , ben Haupt , who is a dear friend , is working His you know what off toward this end , toward reaching as many different people as possible .

I would just love to hear how we're being honest with what is and what will be as it relates to both , both seminaries working in tandem to meet this need .

There are I'm an inner art , my congregation is entering Chicago suburbs . We had at one point 18 congregations in our circuit , many of which were very , very small , and a couple of those have closed .

A couple of those have dueled up and and some of them have long-term pastors who have been there 20 , 30 years , maybe living in a personage , but it is unclear if that pastor retires , will they be able to support a full-time pastor ? So One of the things we try to get from the Council of Presidents is what are the actual needs ?

If we had a hundred men Graduating from st Louis , as we had 20 years ago , would there be enough calls for them ? There is a certain amount of vacancy , but some of that is , you know , they're their congregations . Within a 10 , 15 minute drive of my church , on Sunday that may have 2535 people in worship and Certainly we don't denigrate any congregation .

As someone said you know , congregations matter , but what is the future of that ? Are we called to be ? You know , and this is the challenge of institutionalism , we're all guilty of it , our congregation , you know we we're happy to have someone come in , but we don't want to change what we're doing and I'm sure that's the case for many .

You know , our service time is at this time and so on and so forth . That is one of the challenges for the seminaries .

Now , recruitment were dr Hoppe will tell you , you know , he's at the bottom of the funnel , so Someone may be formed , start , you know , called be a pastor , starting there , six years old , ten years old , someone in congregation says , hey , I think you'd be a good pastor . Pastor says you know you should do this .

We are , we are coming through and gleaning a building on what has been built by many others , obviously their second careermen that come in as well . And To the , to the broader question yes , it's a challenge but it's it's a difficult question to answer . We're obviously attempting .

We do provide guaranteed tuition for those that come in the emdiv route and we provide a substantial Contribution for the alternate routes as well . We have dr Halft and dr Pastor wheat fell that fort Wayne , others working diligently on the recruitment area , and you know we're , we're training the men that God has provided .

I guess the question is then Do we feel that this is in some way a barrier ? To some extent , any , any program is going to be a barrier , but you know that's . That's really the question . And then , what kind of pastors are we going to put out in these contexts ?

Are they going to be , are they going to be , equipped with the full armor of God , as it were , to deal with this increasingly secular society ? It's not this , as you mentioned . You don't just plan a church . Every two or three miles people come in . We want men that are fully equipped , and that is . That is also the .

The argument towards residential formation is this is the

best way to give a fully trained pastor as much as he can to bring that saving word and that doctor to the people . So I'm not sure if I answered you yet .

You've got the online learning experience with , with residential the , the residential kind of approach , because there's a cohort of students kind of working together , not the same as residential education granted and then and then having the academics who are around that formation process as as well . It's great for adult , adult learning . It's .

I don't think it's Ideal necessarily for someone kind of coming through the system , but it's a test we're running right now To possibly meet the need for bivocational and co-vocational pastors .

That's one of my big Concerns is that I don't hear enough Around serving those congregations and others who are trending in that direction , as many of our older pastors retire and or go to be with the Lord and a real longer able to be in the pulpits of Conrogations worshiping between 50 and 100 people .

So I think bivocational and co-vocational could be , could be an option , but as I look at all of the routes right now , that there's not enough time to get that man . Five years , I mean we've got a number of second career guys that go through .

I remember them fondly and it's great that they can do it , but the demand is greater than we're meeting right now . Even with the residential we can , we can have the appeal . All we want , you know , until we're blue in the face , come , come , come .

You know you're not sacrificing enough , but the reality is a number of these leaders in their 40s , 50s , 60s are embedded in their , in their context , and many of them have fallen in love with robust Lutheran Lutheran education and they're just not going to do the the four years with a vicarage in in there of residential education . So an OSMP .

This is complex , right , and OSMP was kind of set set up , but it wasn't necessarily set up to do what we're calling it to do right now , not to mention that it's , you know , quasi-expensive and and you don't get a degree and sometimes then it's even seen as kind of a second rate pastorate in our , in our church . So yeah , it's a complex thing .

I'd love to get your take on the the need for bivocational or co-vocational leaders , especially in this interim . As said , a part to serve is building that upward draft of young , young men who will go to the seminary and mark I want you to know , I want my son to go to Concordia , st Paul , or Concordia , nebraska .

He wants to play football , and then I want to go to the seminary and I want to go to the seminary and I want you to know Football , and then I want him to go to one of our two seminaries . You know that this is what I want as as a father , if my son is called into in the ministry .

But there still is that need to serve those , those smaller churches , those declining congregations , anything on bivocational and ministry mark .

There's two different issues here . There's the issue of distance learning versus in-person learning and there's the disc , the issue of seminary versus mentorship or apprentice model . Sometimes those things are conflated , sometimes they're not . So you could have , quote unquote , an online seminary , which is a traditional seminary model but it's done online .

You could have an in-person mentorship model where the person is essentially , as with the cross-cultural ministry center , an in onsite Vicar , or you could have some combination of the two .

And Even with the residential program , obviously 25% of that is contextual because during the third year the seminarians go out and have an in-person Year-long vicarage where they're doing in-person mentorship model with a supervising pastor . So they're both have those things together .

Looking at the alternate routes we have now there are eight of them roughly Center for Hispanic Studies , ethnic immigrant Institute of Technology . Residential alternate route . Specific ministry pastor . Specific ministry pastor Espanyol . Specific ministry pastor to general certification and the cross-cultural ministry center .

Each of those programs is delivered primarily through distance education or online . Some of them have Intensives on campus . The SMP does . Their cohort will come on campus to st Louis or to Fort Wayne for Intensives .

There is that is present to a greater or lesser extent with the other programs as well , but other than the SMP , these programs are in rolling between zero and five men a year each . So it's very fragmented . So those programs are out there where a man could be in a bivocational setting and of course they're all different .

The EIIT is designed for Ethnic immigrants whose English is not their first language . Center for Hispanic Studies is delivered in Spanish . The CMC is run out of Irvine . It's entirely online and they are looking for men that are going to be engaged in a cross-cultural ministry plant or something of that nature . But those are not . I'm not aware .

You know again , the enrollment in those is relatively low . So I'm not sure with all those options , that the demand is out there for the second career men that want to go in those paths and Stay in their context , because they're not doing it now .

The SMP is a different animal , but I will tell you , if you look at the statistics of the SMP , which is the Pacific Ministry pastor program , 75% of those men , year in , year out , are going to placements where there is one or more residentially trained pastors currently serving .

So I was on the task force with president Seiler from South Dakota and he had a Reservation in his district which is , you know , 50 miles from anywhere , and they raised up a local leader and that man went through the SMP . I am strongly in favor of that . That is what that program is designed to do .

But as far as the bulk of the men are Actually going into multi-staff settings , so it's it's unclear if they're not actually able to go to seminary and that's the that's really . The question is , how many of these settings are ? You know ? The remote village in Alaska , to coin a phrase , the remote area of South Dakota versus ?

There are men that you know , our staff pastors at a mega church that has five or six men on staff . So I'm not sure if I have the answer to that question .

I think in many districts . It's largely used in on the West Coast . Texas , I think , has had some folks get through it , but they have limitations on how many students they can receive and most of them are non-anglo and serving in very diverse contexts . And I am a faculty member with the CMC .

You get to hang out at Concordia , irvine every other summer as we talk mission and leadership . So it's a wonderful program and I think it's kind of been put into a corner and we don't need to talk about that necessarily .

But SMP in particular , I don't know that the marketing around SMP from districts and I'm talking like district presidents right now if all of them are actively saying hey , this is an amazing program , small congregation , raise up a man locally Maybe it's an elder , someone that's theologically inclined , and this is the way for you to have a Vicar for a season under

supervision of maybe a circuit visitor . I don't know that that messaging is coming out to a lot of our smaller congregations . I could be wrong but I haven't heard in terms of the seminary , both of them and we can talk SMP like the curriculum is kind of different between both of the seminaries . That's another point , I think , for clarification .

But I haven't seen the marketing , if you will , through districts for that , because I would see it in the PSD , because we've got a number of these congregations right now that are not being served and I don't know that we're looking to use SMP to raise up men locally . Any thoughts there , mark ?

Is the goal that , because the congregation exists institutionally , it needs to perpetuate itself until the last person turns the lights off ? Or we're not .

Obviously we want the gospel to be proclaimed , but if you are in my context , for example , where there's 16 churches in a circuit and you can get from one end of the other in eight miles , is it advisable to raise up men at each of these congregations where they continue to struggle along with 30 people in worship on a Sunday ?

Or should we look at our own sin of institutionalism and say maybe we should get together and we can then do much more with what God has given us , rather than burning through our seed corn , keeping the roof on the building , keeping the lights on and so forth ?

And that will depend on where you are , if you're out in a rural area and there's nothing within you for 30 miles and pastors are driving 2.3-point perishes , 4-point perishes . That's a different situation . And if that's the way that the gospel is to be proclaimed in the sacraments administered in that location , I am all for the alternate route .

But again , our footprint is such that we do have concentrations , we have dying churches and Luther says the gospel is a rain shower . And is this things that we're doing ? Is this things that God is allowing to happen ?

Not that we ever abandon any area , but we do look at what is the best stewardship of what God is doing , of what we can do with what God has given us , and it may or may not . Be okay , this church exists . It must have its own pastor . That's something we have to think about . That we may not have had to think about 50 years ago . So that would be

. I guess my response to that is we have to look at the context of the situation and not simply say yes , this congregation exists , it must have a pastor , can't afford an MDiv , so therefore let's just pick . I mean , I'm being a little flippant here .

I'm not trying to disrespect people , but I'm saying let's just find a guy and put him up there , because we want somebody standing up in front of us on Sunday morning , but yet two miles down the road there's another congregation . Do we know those brothers and sisters ? Can we get together with them ?

Maybe we do something else , and maybe that then allows us to reach out to even more people .

I guess the underlying kind of gut check for me , mark , is I don't know that churches and pastors for that matter take and this is the set apart to serve kind of an issue .

I don't think we take it seriously enough our role in raising up , yes , the next generation and our role you know Romans 10 , how will they hear unless someone preaches bless the feet of those who go ? You know so it's going to be .

I don't think the culture of leadership development on all different fronts has been strong in our church and I think that's one of the reasons why we're seeing this kind of decline right now and we're not necessarily . We're going to struggle along in some respects I'm in agreement with you there and the Lord's going to continue to do what the Lord wants to do .

We're going to remain faithful to the Word , but leadership development and discipleship multiplication , if you will , from one generation second Timothy 2 to find a man who can find another man . You know , the apostle Paul gives that charge to Timothy .

I don't know that that's been baked into the culture of the LCMS for some time and that's kind of what makes my heart a little bit sad .

So my view is that we are most equipped to teach and to train the more we know and we have to watch the imperative . You know , there's sort of the mission imperative versus doctrine and those cannot be set in opposition to one another because the more you have within you , the more you can share .

I will be more effective as a leader if I've been effectively taught the more I know . You know , obviously I'm an adult conferman , for , you know , 25 years . I'm still learning a lot and I am obviously not in a ministry vocation .

But I think that with a pastor who has gotten the full richness , who has had all these faculty , who's interacted with the peers and you know , we get the alumni studies and we're grateful for you , by the way , as an alumnus of Concordia Seminary . But they will say , yes , I learned in this class , I learned this , I learned that .

But a lot of what they will talk about is their experiences interacting with their peers , going over to a faculty member's house , interacting outside of class , and all those things form them as pastors to be able to inspire the men and women and laity and everybody else who , in our daily vocation , where we have been placed by God , have the opportunity to share

the gospel , have the opportunity to do those things . And I think the more it's not a situation where you say , okay , here's the gospel . You know , like the missionaries , the first thing you translate is the gospel of John , so they've got something in their language . It's not like , okay , here's the gospel of John , go out and do it .

It's like let's give all of scripture , all the confessions , and that will make you much more effective , I think , as a leader , as an evangelist , whatever we're placed to do , rather than saying , okay , I've got this much , let's go do it , and leaving all that aside .

So I think that's kind of the dichotomy and where we may respectfully disagree as far as what is the most effective means of putting that out there .

I would like to see some form of an online MDiv for bivocational leaders moving , moving forward . I am I'm a fan of the SMP . I think it could be better and I think giving it an online MDiv with boundaries , with boundaries , age stage , etc . Navigated by districts and district presidents who understand those men .

I think that's something we should explore moving , moving forward . I think the the we would be much more collegial with one another and respectful of one another if that were offered .

We're one of the few mainline denominations , confessional mainline denominations that does not have an online MDiv and and we have to work with what we have , mark , I mean , the majority of our pastors are Anglo , we German , saxon .

This is where this is where we're at , and we've got a number of these routes , but SMP is the only really viable , viable route for those who are Anglo , anglo , saxon , right , and so , yeah , that's that's where we may disagree and I I don't think .

I don't think that if we offered an online MDiv with appropriate boundaries , age and stage and context , that that hurts the brand of residential education . I think that's . I think that's short-sighted . I really believe the brand oh they're , they're trying to meet us where we're at . I want the next gen to go through .

I think that would have a ripple , ripple effect . So this is this is serious stuff that you and the Board of Regents have to wrestle with . Moving forward . The Pastoral Formation Committee has to wrestle with moving forward . One of my areas of concern is that active pastors in variety of different contexts are not necessarily at the table .

You know , I want to be in the room where it happens and I'm not just lobbying for me to be there , but other pastors who have strong opinions about this , who went through our system , are not necessarily connected to the pastoral formation committee , and maybe we have . We have representatives , lay leaders and pastors on our board of regents . So I get that .

That's not , that's not necessarily what I'm saying , but the the key to this really is the pastoral formation committee as we explore alternate routes , and that that includes Kevin Robeson , james Bannock , both connected to LCMS Inc .

Right , as well as then both of our seminary seminary presidents , one of whom , dr Rast , is moving into another season of life and so I don't know that that group has now . I will say this with respect I am in conversation with them . There are a number of us who are in conversation with them .

The door is not closed to this conversation moving , moving forward toward alternate routes , but they really are the gatekeepers toward even the online MDiv conversation , etc . The board of regents , nor any one president , has the ability to adapt the formation process . This much scope through pastoral formation committee and then Senate and convention .

This is , and I think we have these limitations , we have these boundaries , you know , between conventions , for for good reason , I mean , I think it's served us well . We want to highly train the pastor , right , but at the same time , we're not .

People wouldn't look at the LCMS and say , wow , they're , they're a radically innovative , innovative group to respond to needs , right , it's a very complex thing . So any response to the online MDiv and and or pastors just trying to be faithful at the local level , starting new ministry , etc . In partnership with the Pastoral Formation Committee . I said a lot .

There you go , mark .

Maybe the seminal work on this was probably 30 years ago and of course that makes it that's an eternity in the evolution of education . It's called being there and it was done by Daniel Alshire and others . I'm sure you're familiar with it and the argument there was basically that this was really almost before the internet .

That in person community was very vital to maintaining the culture .

So in more recent years there's been a lot of studies on online education which say , well , basically it's as good or better , and some of that , of course , is a little bit self serving because a lot of institutions , for cost reasons and otherwise , I want to go with the online model and obviously want to justify what it is that they're doing .

A lot of those suffer from selection biases or other things , because if you're inclined to go online , you may be coming out of a different context . You may be a different type of student they did in 2021 do a randomized study at West Point where they assigned cadets either into an online or in person economics class

and that study you can look up . I can send you the link to it if you have show notes or anything like that . Sure . Yeah , they found there was a negative impact on academics of point two standard deviations in terms of grades for the online students . So certainly you can learn things online , but it requires more discipline and it's a different experience .

The second issue is the mentorship model versus the broader model and again I'm going to strongly defend the formation model that we have because of the catholicity , because of the relationships , because of mutual accountability and creating a culture of the brotherhood , of the ministerium , and I'm saying this is a layman , so obviously you're the practitioner .

I'm looking at this from one sitting in the pews look , you know , as the hearer judging the , the pastor . I see men on our board , I see other pastors interacting and they will talk . They're dynamic when they've been classmates , even if they haven't been classmates .

At the same time , there is a commonality , there's a culture that sort of conveys our DNA but also deals with how people relate to one another .

When you're interacting with somebody online , a lot of the toxic things that we see in our church body occur online between individuals that don't have personal relationships with one another or even are lashing out anonymously . And I think that when you have , when you're coming through with a cohort , I mean you know that's a cohort model . That's .

There's some accountability , but much more so when you have a personal relationship . You have an accountability Classmate sees you know something you've wrote online or whatever , maybe likes it , doesn't like it , knows you , calls you up you know , hey , what's going on . You've got that dynamic and you also have an accountability towards them .

And I think when you go online you do lose some of that . We've seen that obviously through the pandemic and I understand there's differences between you know , young children versus adult learning and I'm not going to get into all that . I mean , you know , obviously there were a lot of different things going on .

But I feel that the community aspect , the church , is ultimately relational . We relate , we have the horizontal fellowship with one another as well as the vertical fellowship and when you take that away , it takes away one of the important dynamics there , because ministry is being done in person .

You're meeting with people , you're conducting worship services , you're making calls , whatever it is you're doing . Can you learn online ? Certainly , and obviously Concordia Seminary has programs that do do that .

But from a normative standpoint I'm going to say I like the MDiv being delivered in person , because you do get that learning community , you do get those formation experiences and there is a spiritual dimension to that as well , which you know .

God can work through whatever means he chooses , but this is sort of what , what the church has , this is the consensus , if you will , that we've settled upon , and I'm not sure , certainly with the SMP we've seen well , we're going to limit it this way that it ends up not being limited .

Once you put that online , there's a great temptation to just say , well , this is , this is what we want to do , and you can always come up with a reason . You know I can come up with a reason why I want to work from home , I don't want to go on the office today , that kind of thing .

I think it is helpful because , also , people are going to be uprooted . They're going to be serving . They could be serving in Arizona , they could be serving Illinois , they could be serving in New York , they could become a foreign missionary . All those things are going to be disruptive experiences .

But that is , you know , when Christ called the disciples , he disrupted their , their context , took them out of their context , made them fishers of men and sent them all over , sent them to paths they didn't know . I called them to martyrdom and everything else .

Hopefully not the case for most of our men that are coming through , but nonetheless I think there's I . I will strongly and passionately make the case for the residential program .

That is fantastic , it's wonderful .

It's what the disciples had , obviously with the resident theologian , jesus , who stepped down into , into our flesh and at the same time , I think there could be a way for the SMP to just if I could , if I could stand my fingers , mark and change something , the SMP would get a degree and we'd have we'd have the limitations , the stipulations the cohort model like

that and I , the the tests we're running right now with competency based theological education , could have , could have an overlapping effect with the SMP program right now . So it's been , it's been an honor to talk with you . What we agree on is Jesus's Lord . People need the gospel of Jesus now more than ever .

And and we're going to wrestle with one another , we're going to disagree agreeably . We're going to remain under the covering of of the Lutheran Confessions . Obviously , centering us in the person and work of Jesus is found in his , his inspired words in scripture . We're going to agree on the narrative . People need to understand the narrative of scripture .

Right Biblical literacy is declining today . We need laymen and women who are sent out into our world to bring the light and love of Christ now more than ever .

And I believe , if we can , if we can have more conversations like this , mark , if I can look at a brother who I met in person , very , very helpful , and then hang out digitally like this and just kind of beat it around a little bit , you know , and and say I , I , I will not , I will not say anything , Mark , that I'm going to try , with a new man in

me , to say anything that would keep us , that would divide , that would divide us . And to your point about the divisiveness today on on social like , I'm sure some people may have various , you know , strong comments one way or another , based on our conversation today .

Have a conversation with a brother , you know , build bridges of understanding under the common confession that we have and , for goodness sake , if we've gone through , if we've been blessed to go through one of our two seminaries , that collegiality should unite us in our diverse contexts and I I just unfortunately don't see those open conversations happening as much as

as much as possible , and I pray this has some small ripple effect for us to continue to listen and learn from one another . Any closing comments there , mark ?

The Lord of the harvest will send workers and that is one of the themes we have at Concordia Seminary and hope to see you around campus sometime , if you're back for a reunion or when it happened to be there .

At the gym we have , we get to serve over 300 students in Arizona over the last gosh 30 years and we've never had a gym Mark for kids to go inside . It gets very , very hot here . So I get to go work on my game and then come and hang out with the preachers and and reconnect with the brothers there on campus . Such a , such a gift .

This has been a joy . This is lead time . Sharing is caring . Please like , subscribe , comment .

Wherever it is that you take in podcasts like this , and we pray that this conversation one drew you to a deeper desire to know and follow Jesus and , if you're a leader with influence , a deeper desire to raise up the next generation of leaders to carry forth the gospel , saving message of Jesus . He is Lord . He loves you very , very much . It's a good day .

Go and make it a great day . Thanks , mark , appreciate you .

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