Get a Vision For Your Community with Reverend Keith Haney

Each podcast confronts real-time struggles facing the local church in a post-Christian culture . Step into the action with the ULC at unitel leadershiporg . This is Leigh Time .

Let me give you a little bit of Keith's story 12 years in the Northern Illinois Mission Exec role . Before that , 13 years in the parish in Detroit , st Louis and Milwaukee , and now he serves as the mission executive in the Iowa West District , living in Fort Dodge , iowa . So , keith , thanks so much for hanging man . How are you doing today ?

But it gave us a chance to really begin to help congregations start to shift from just existing as congregations to really carrying out the mission . I really thought that we didn't have a whole lot to add .

We just figured people know how to do this whole mission thing , how to reach their community , and the more we talk to people , the more the simple things were just not evident to people . And so we really try to help congregations get a vision for the kingdom , get a vision for their community .

And for me , vision is really about who are the people that are not in your walls , because that's what vision is directed at , not the people in your walls . That's the mission statement .

The mission is a great commission for all of us , but the vision has to be for those who are outside your walls , and so we really want to help churches figure out what do we have to do , what do we have to change to reach that population that's not coming into our churches ?

Some there were on the border , some there were just hanging on actually did close during COVID . Others began to realize that there was a shift in our culture , especially among young people who were under 25 , who just stopped coming , the other ones that were hit hardest by COVID , and so they were already used to a digitalized society , digitalized world .

But the church had to , all of a sudden , pivot quickly most of our churches and start doing online content . But what that resulted was is they couldn't get people to come back after COVID came , because they got real comfortable watching church in their pajamas and having a cup of coffee in their slippers .

So , all of a sudden , why am I going to get up when I can get this in their mind ? The same benefits on my couch as I do in the pew . And so I wanted the church to be able to figure out . The world around us is really changing . It's becoming a post-Christian world where the church is not everyone's number one priority .

So how do you get people who don't think church first , who think spiritual growth ? I can get online on television preachers how do you get them to realize that there is a commitment there , a connection to being in the body of Christ together with other believers ? And so I wanted to get them to realize that .

To do that , you got to ask the question of the people who aren't coming . Why would I come to your church ? How would I make the effort to get out of bed , put on clothes , fight with my kids in some place ? Like you , big cities fight through traffic to go to church . What benefit is it for me and the church really has to wrestle with ?

What does the church offer to those people who aren't currently coming ?

I'm not going to get into the debate about online communion necessarily , but I think it's preferable to be in person If possible . We need one another , eyeball to eyeball , and then loneliness is a real epidemic in our world and people need to rub shoulders with one another and we do that consistently , weekly , and between the week we're going on missions .

So Christ in community is my big master . Why statement we go , multiply disciples and we can talk , discover , develop and deploy , but if you're really meeting the felt need , it's the love of Jesus and it's a desperate need for Jesus people to go on that shared mission together .

I'd be curious , keith have you heard other pastors really wrestle with that and just lean in ? I'm sure you are right now . What does that value proposition sound like right now , collectively with pastors ?

I always joke that people have replaced church with St Starbucks , with St Walmart and my favorite , st Mattress , because St Mattress is so much more comfortable on Sunday more than St Paul is .

So the challenge is you have to get people who don't see the value of being connected with Christ to understand that there's something there that's otherworldly and being in the body of Christ with other believers who , on the same struggle with you on this planet we call Earth , are there to be that mutual consolation for you that you cannot get in your living room

watching it on television .

So people are getting some sort of value by being a member of the church , coming to the church , visiting the church , joining a small group for some reason , going to Bible study , whatever that may be .

They're getting a value and you actually have to be very conscious about what is the value that the person is getting from this interaction that we're curating from them and then actually giving permission to realize that oftentimes the relationships we start with people are very consumeristic relationships . It doesn't stay that way , but it often starts that way .

So giving yourself permission to start having relationships at that level and then moving them through phases of different relationships as we go along . What are your thoughts on that ?

I'm like , why would I go through the process of going through college , go into the process of being Lutheran , if there's no benefit ? Because you're asking people to do something that they don't have to do . They already have the job . What's the benefit of being Lutheran ? It's the same thing with going to church . We keep going . Why don't people come ?

This is such a great thing , but you have to put yourself in their position of well , I'm happy where I'm at right now . Life is fine , I don't need to change my life Now . Sometimes God throws wrenches in their life so they feel like , okay , something's wrong . I need to find strength outside myself . But until that happens , they're going along .

You know , life's okay , life's great , I need to join a church and give up my Sunday golf and you know my time with the kids at the park . I'm fine , just where I'm at , so you have to . The church has to understand that the people outside the walls don't feel a strong need to be part of this community .

So we have to go out and make the case , like you just said . We have to make the case for Christ in the community .

So this is like going to church , is like going to the gym , right , yep , it's pain now , pain later , like I want to have some pain right now of getting my butt out of bed , to be there with people you know we could say butt on this . I almost said another .

I want to get there because I know that deposits over time in the Jesus direction with community are going to pay huge dividends One for me to live in , in servicing , care for others when they're struggling and then for them to return that love and care for me when it happens , when the unexpected loss , diagnosis , et cetera happens in my life .

You know human beings by nature , right , and we're going to get into leading change . We don't really like , we would much prefer just to chill , just to coast , and we're believing an absolute lie that this is going to be longterm sustainable , right ? So I loved your survey .

When I saw this leading change in the church survey come from Keith Haney , I'm like what Someone's doing ? A survey on change in the church . The church don't change , but no , we have to today .

And what it did was , you know , it gave them a little bit of a push in the beginning but it always stalled out because there weren't the other underlining support systems to make the change actually change the culture .

Because really changing if you take it in Cotter is it's not really chain-listed culture changes , otherwise it's just innovation , which innovation could be anything like you know , we're adding a new worship service . You do that , but it doesn't necessarily mean it's a part of the congregation . You just add another service . So change would be that that only has it .

You add another service , but out of that service you can identify fruits of that service and it's now part of people's life . They actually have changed your life to be part of this service , not just we tolerate the fact that it's there . So whether church struggles most For me was like there's something missing .

It's gotta be something before you get to the vision part . And that's where Cotter resonated with me was because Cotter starts with what's the sense of urgency , what's the reason for this change , if you don't identify clearly the reason you're changing ? Because you go to a doctor , doctor says you need to lose weight . They're like , yeah , whatever doc .

But he says , if you don't , you're gonna die in five years . Oh well , now you got my attention , because now there's a sense of urgency there . I think the church struggles with the urgency .

They know things aren't right , they feel things aren't right , they sense that things aren't right , but they don't really have the need to say , okay , let's form a coalition of people , let's have a cast , a strategic vision to make this happen .

So without that , I realized that we had to find some process to get them moving beyond just yeah , we need to change .

Love to get your response on this , but it's really really easy for a pastor to skip . Point number two , create . I can create a sense of urgency , and then I'm gonna go like I can't tell you . I went up on the mountain , I spent time with the Lord , I got a vision . I got a vision Church .

Here it is , let's go , it doesn't , it doesn't work like it doesn't work like that . You need that guiding coalition , that team , to own it together , to develop it together If it's ever gonna saturate . I don't care if it's a congregation of 50 or 5,000 . So talk about any response to those kind of three stages of organizational change . Keith .

I said you need to recruit a diverse team , and I say diverse team and not necessarily diversity in the way we hear diversity today , but diverse in terms of their skills , their abilities , their impact in the congregation . Because you need people on that team who can communicate that vision to all the different naysayers in your congregation .

You need people that have certain skill sets communication , audio visual . Some of the best change I saw came from people who had a creative way of once they got beyond state , the first three stages to communicate what the best results of what's happening in the church , whether we're doing a video presentation or we're sharing stories .

They found a way to make sure that vision was taking root . And the last one is a strategic vision . We often don't know what vision is . We kind of have a nebulous term of vision , but I like to use the term strategic vision where there's actually some steps involved in accomplishing that vision .

Hopefully , whoever's leading at that stage if you're the pastor or whatever you're consciously lowering yourself to get all the voices to come out , that you're engaging all the stakeholders , all the opinion leaders , Like you , can't do that work enough . And that's a long stage , right ? I mean you can't .

And it takes time , it takes trust as we start to get toward the strategic vision point . But

what does strategy even mean , Jack ? When you hear the word strategic vision , I think it's one thing to cast a vision , but what about a strategic vision , Jack ?

You know what does this look like , with all the pieces on the board where tactical gets down and you're actually pushing the pieces . I mean .

They said culture eats strategy for breakfast , and from my experience , that is entirely true , because your strategy can be a little bit vague and if your culture is solid , then you're gonna have a bunch of people that are figuring it out in real time , right , because they're passionate enough to do it .

They're passionate enough to lean in and fill in the gaps that maybe an incomplete strategy doesn't create . And , tim , actually , to be 100% accurate , a lot of the strategy that you and I do , it's not a complete strategy , it's a big vision and we're counting on very talented people to come in and fill in the gaps based on the passions that they have .

Like , yeah , we're lit up from this . We're doing this right now with property development . Like I don't know how to do property development . I'm trying to cast a vision and get people like really excited about it and praying that like really talented people come in and start to develop a more coherent strategy on what that looks like right .

This is the wild thing is we all know all the data shows it , keith that when people have a mission and a purpose and they're sacrificing and serving and they're leaning into team , the joy factor goes on overdrive . This is what this is the why for me of this podcast is .

I just want more and more pastors to experience the joy of living life in reciprocal relationship with a big mission that we're never really gonna get to Like . It's not about , it's about the journey .

It's about the people that you're going on this journey with , and there's always gonna be more problems , but I got a huge network of people that can help solve them and I just get to sit back and watch the Holy Spirit at work . It's the best thing ever , living in reciprocity like this with brothers and sisters who are uniquely gifted .

I just need a lot of friends . I just need a lot of friends . It's as simple as that , Keith . Any response to that , bro ?

So I joined bowling leagues and it's funny because you know , I joined a bowling league and we just joined one here in town and the first day there there was a lot of colorful language . I'm like , okay , there may be Christians here , but they use a lot of colorful language in the bowling alley .

But you also hear a lot of personal stories and you connect again with the community . You can get locked up in your beautiful church , beautiful church walls , and you can isolate yourself from all the things around you and you forget how to make friends .

You forget how difficult life is because you hear just the lives of your members and your people who come to you , but you don't see it in real time . Being out at the coffee shop , being out at the grocery store , being out at the bowling alley , being out at the golf course , you experience life as it is and you begin to understand .

As you're , preaching gets better because you understand what they're going through . I remember the worst thing I can remember is going to a church one time and it was after a horrible event and the church didn't even mention it in the prayers or Sunday morning had no idea .

I'm like I want a world where you live in , a world where you just saw a tragedy happen and it doesn't make the prayer consciousness of your congregation . You were too isolated if you forgot that somebody was just attacked . You know , people lost their lives , but it didn't end up in your sermon or end up in your prayer time .

Yeah , you want to golf course and these guys they feel comfortable , they know what I do , but they're just being themselves and Jesus conversations just happen consistently . So give us a paint with a little bit of a broad brush here .

Some of the key characteristics go a little deeper in these three kind of organizational change cycles Struggling churches from thriving churches . What are some of those differences ? Like , the struggling church is not doing X and they're doing what behaviors are they actively doing ? We've touched on a little bit . Maybe there's even more to say , keith .

When Chicago Cubs were losing 105 years in a row without a world championship , they brought in a new general manager and what did he promise to town ? We're going to win a World Series . That was their trophy . Everybody in Chicago knew what the trophy was . If you asked them how are the Cubs going to get there , they could tell you the detailed plan .

They had to lose for three or four years . They got to get rid of all their high-priced free agents and they're going to draft really , really well . And when they got close , they were going to add pieces to get them over the top . Everybody in Chicago knew the plan .

If you're in a church and you don't know what the trophy is and you don't know what the plan is , it's a pretty good chance . There is no trophy and there is no plan .

I always tell churches , when God gives you a God-sized vision , it will scare the crap out of you . Yup Because a God-sized vision is so much far beyond you and your capability that it's all about God . And when it happens , it's all because God achieved it . And are you ready for a God-sized vision in your congregation ?

Right , we picked a number like that because I didn't know how to do that and it's going to force us to learn how to do that , and so it's scary , right , and we're at three now . We may be . You know , I could , I could definitely see us be potentially at four in the next , you know , one to two years , depending on how things go .

There's multiple ways to do that . We're learning how to do that , but the process of forcing us to learn how to do that started with saying we're going to do this big thing , we're going to do this massive thing , and then that's going to be something that holds us accountable to perform at a level that we didn't even think is possible to do , right .

insecurities and what is the Jesus way then , well , if I , I got to learn who I am and who I'm not , and then I got to bring onto my team , my diverse team , people who can , who can champion this vision . You know , I don't know that pastors have really been been trained or we've made space for different types of pastors with different personalities .

Like the Lord put a galvanizing rah-rah kind of sales guy in me . That's what hit . That's how he made me . That's not how we made every pastor , you know so . And he also made me I don't have a clue about finance and stuff like that like making it happen . I spread sheets , like give me a break .

You know , like I had to ask for help in those classes getting through . I needed to . So what do you say to the pastor who , who is maybe a little bit more passive , he hears vision and maybe he maybe even thinks it's like unfaithful , like vision like what are we ?

So the vision that may have started a hundred years ago was still to reach this community . The vision can't still be the same from a hundred years ago . That community is very different . So what's your vision today ?

To reach that community that you're in the neighborhood for today , yeah , the vision has to change to adapt to the people in your , in your surroundings . That's God is working Tim .

I got a lot to learn and I think that casting a vision is actually a humble thing . Like Jack , you , I don't . I think people just listen to what you said and think it's arrogant . Like you hear 2020 , who do they think they are Right ? This is ridiculous .

No , it's actually a humbling statement because I know how much help I'm gonna need from God and from his people .

The Holy Spirit was the only one , the only one who could rest upon them and mobilize them , move them from fear , scarcity to abundance and joy and hope for what God was going to do . So there can be . Sometimes we're just digging into the nitty-gritty man of pastors and churches and your research kind of walk through a number of diverse groups .

So you talked about authoritative leaders in your study a little bit . Why do authoritative leaders have a hard time gaining momentum ?

But transformational are the kind of leaders who have a growth mindset , they're collaborators , they invest the equipment and power others versus servant leaders who are humble people , a character , compassionate , put people first and are sacrificial and lead by example .

What surprised me in this survey was authoritative leaders who are kind of rapid change decision makers , bring clarity , lead , do by chain of command , very goal focus . Authoritative leaders perform poorly in the change process . They routinely did not move the needle as much as transformational and even servant .

But the two that performed highest were transformational and what I called charismatic , which really wasn't charismatic but it was actually narcissistic . But I didn't want to put that in the survey because I was going to pick up a narcissistic leader . So charismatic seemed the software version of narcissistic .

It's after the heart and mind of Christ , but you drew this kind of distinction .

I'm sure there's some overlap in the servant leader and the transformational leader , but would you say the goal is to take all of the characteristics of the servant leader and lead that into organizational change , because being a transformational leader is going to necessitate building that team and even teams of teams to move forward .

Talk a little bit about that , keith .

But I think putting people first the downside of that is when there is controversy , when there is pain , the servant leader wants to heal the pain and I think the healing of the pain slows the servant leader down from actually taking it next step to leading him beyond the pain point , to where true change happens .

So I think the servant leader struggles with when there's so much pain and so much pushback because I care so deeply for the people here and I want them to be first the people can sometimes dictate the vision more than outside force of maybe God dictating the vision . So it becomes kind of a people-driven vision versus a God-driven vision . That makes sense .

All movements start and I think we're in need today of a fresh wind of the Holy Spirit a heightened expectation for the Holy Spirit to show up and show off , to confirm and overwhelmingly affirm the work of Christ , to create and sustain faith and to mobilize us for love and good deeds , to sanctify us , to make us holy as His people and , I would say , one of

the biggest prayers . If you're like man , I have some passive traits . Maybe I'm passively imbalanced because I've thought that leadership meant I was never upsetting anyone and my biggest goal was to just make everybody happy .

And because pastors get into this , because one , these are all good things , we love Jesus and we deeply want to make Jesus known , and then we love people . And then we get in and we realize , oh my goodness , this is messy , my job description . I'm looking over at what pastors do . I can't ever do that .

All the different things , all the different traits , and so the only way that this transformation happens is by the power of the Holy Spirit and people can move to get I'm thinking , gurgle your loins . You know , like there's going to be struggle , there's going to be trial , and will I embrace it or will I pretend that it doesn't exist ?

My research , Keith , for my doctorate was in organizational leadership and the traits of pastors who collaborate in mission , and what I found is that many pastors are passively imbalanced and we handle stress poorly , and so some of my big recommendations is lead from a point of strength and strength , starting in your day with taking care of the little things .

Personal care , self-care is not harmful , it's so necessary . But then we move forward with this just abundance learning mindset , and we want diverse reactions depending on what the culture of the community is , because every church is so unique . Keith , you know this . I mean , some churches are passively like they're just a sweet . They're just a sweet place .

Well , they're going to need that transformational leader to come in and provide just the amount of nudge and challenge , but then other churches could be and I think this is the exception , not the rule like aggressively imbalanced corporately .

I pray for that , actually , that there'd be more of these chairs like we're going to go , we're going to go , and there's like conflict all the time , and so the pastor is going to have to understand a little more diplomatic approach there .

Any response to that , though , because I think the Holy Spirit is the one that gives us deeper self-awareness and then deeper curiosity in terms of what kind of context , what kind of congregation I've inherited or started . Is the Holy Spirit necessary for that journey from servant leadership to transformational leadership ? Keith .

I'm more of an adaptive leader , whereas sometimes I'm transformational , sometimes I'm more servant leader , sometimes I'm more skill-based because that's what the job requires , the leadership requires . So I've learned that we actually probably change . We're not like a solid , always servant leader . So I think we adapt to what our circumstances need .

Sometimes you need to be charismatic , which means you have the ability to motivate and you're a skill communicator , because you have to really communicate that vision and then people catch on to it and they take off and run with it and then you get to be the transformation . You get to empower them .

It's like , okay , let me equip you , let me empower you , let me collaborate with you , but I'm going to let you go run , because the more people that have the hands on the vision and are doing the vision , the more the vision expands quicker .

Based on your , your study , I don't know that we've created a culture where we strongly encourage LCMS churches pastors to go on that journey to learn beyond the borders of the LCMS . What have you learned , Keith ?

I think the Lutheran , the Lutheran ethos , is we don't like to to applaud and we don't like to celebrate accomplishments because we think that's prideful , Right . But I think our people need to know and get an add , a boy and a pat on the back and we need to celebrate what God is doing . We don't do that nearly enough in our churches .

Celebrate not what we are doing but what God is doing through us , because people need to see that God mightily and powerfully moves through , through his church and through his people . We don't talk with that enough and so we get very down on ourselves in our church because we don't celebrate what God is doing enough .

See , celebrating what God doing is not being arrogant , it's acknowledging that God is in charge and God sits on the throne .

Give me the next hit , you know , but can we stop and notice ? And then this is the book . That's man . It's a top 10 for me in terms of organizational change and individual transformation is the gap in the gain .

The gap in the gain and what the research discovers is that you study , joy is found , happiness is found in measuring how far you've come , not lamenting on how far you have yet to go . That's living in the gap .

And too often in churches we can look around at other churches and we're comparing ourselves and we're lamenting or we're pridefully trying to distinguish ourselves , rather than just going on your unique journey , casting vision and then taking the right next step and celebrating every single , every single step . I think of the Apostle Paul .

Right , you think about Jesus , for goodness sake , cast amazing vision right , spend time , cast vision , gave him the Holy Spirit . Greater things you're going to do . You're going to receive power from on high when the Holy Spirit comes upon you . And then boom , the Holy Spirit comes and the missional movement happens .

And then the Apostle Paul as he's shaping the early church , he's starting every single letter to either individuals or the church . Pretty much . Maybe Galatians , you could make an argument he was kind of upset with the church there , but every single church is starting with joy . I hear all of these amazing reports .

The Lord is at work in your midst and so if , pastor , you're struggling with you know what ? I'm kind of a glass half empty kind of dude . I'm an EOR leader and I've got so many wounds right now Could you pray to Jesus for just the lens to see how good he is ? It really comes down to the heart of worship .

Right , we just celebrate how good God is , the audacity that we've been claimed by grace , through faith , and we've been incorporated into the greatest mission of all time , and we get to play our small part in God's big missional plan . I mean , just lead with gratitude and then invite other people to do the same . That's it . That shouldn't be .

We hide behind the German thing , like I got my German pastor voice right , or German Lutheran or you know that kind of a thing Like it's good to kind of have a caricature but then say you know what , it's a new day , it's a new day and the Holy Spirit's doing a new thing , and so I'm going to choose to behave a little differently .

And I believe it starts with celebration . Couldn't agree with you more , keith , anything more to , because I think for a cult . Last question is culture shift . As we move from a fear based who haven't done it that way kind of culture to this hope based , joy filled , vision filled future , how does that culture shift truly get integrated into the ministry ?

What did you find in your research .

I mean , just the entire book of acts is celebrating what God is doing in the early church . If you really want to just focus on , is it okay , is it biblical , is it godly ? Read the book of acts . That entire book is about what did God do in the lives of the early church and it's an account for us to go . Look , God did this .

God brought 3000 on one day . God healed people . God overcame tragedy , adversity . I mean , look at what book God did the church and look at these believers excel because they were under persecution . We have so much to celebrate .

We can create our own acts , account for our own congregation and celebrate daily what God has done through the work that God has blessed us to do .

I remember after they said I remember after they said you've completed in front of my panel and stuff , and I'm kind of an emotional guy but I , just because it takes so much work , man , I just started like crying . I was like dude . Jesus , thank you , this chapter of my life is done .

It took me four years , bro , to get across the finish line with my doctorate . So congratulations . Praying for that . If people want to connect with you , how can they do so ? And your research Talk about that .

I'm going to shift the podcast a little bit to start interviewing people who have walked away from the church because I want to hear their story . We never hear their story , so we're going to do that on Bridge Builders Now . I got about 15 people lined up in the next about April or so , so you start hearing those stories about what would you do ?

I also interview thought leaders kind of want to get behind what's going on in a culture with leadership , with entrepreneurs , to find out what makes them tick and what can the rest of us learn from them and their stories . So we do a lot of that on the podcast too .

We have gifts to give and we have gifts to receive as the people of God in this wider church , big C church movement that has taken place today . So good stuff , jack , wonderful work , as always . This is lead time , sharing is carrying like , subscribe , comment .

Wherever it is you take in these , these podcasts , we pray that the joy of the Lord is your strength and that you start to cast big vision and bring a guiding coalition of diverse teammates into your team as you implement that strategic vision . And the ULC is here to partner with you on that , on that journey . It's a good day .

Go and make it a great day . Thanks so much , jack . Thanks Keith .

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