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Madame Monsieur moncis who I'm Ladies and gentlemen. Good evening in Mont's The investigation of the serial killer could be about to reach a conclusion. After a warrant was served today in the region of Mons, a suspect was arrested and is being interrogated at the Justice Palace by the investigating judge in charge of the investigation. For the moment,
authorities are refusing to confirm the arrest. Information is slowly filtering through and we know that following the identification of one of the victims of The Butcher of Mons, things seem to be moving fast. The prosecutor remains very discreet. This morning, he refused to divulge the name of the victim in question.
A carefully mysteriously covetu de.
Disappearance of a woman from mont.
The condition of the victims was sickening.
And the question remains, where is the killer?
From Tenderfoot TV and iHeart Podcasts, I'm Your Host Matt Graves and This is le manstre Season two. The Butcher of Moss April twenty fourth, nineteen ninety seven, The public breathed a collective sigh of relief when a man named Leopold Bogart was arrested in charge with the murder of his girlfriend Natalie Godard, the latest victim of the Butcher
of Moss, who disappeared roughly a month earlier. You'll recall from episode two that on the day Natali disappeared, she and a group of friends attended a peaceful protest in Moss called the White March for victims of the du True Affair. After the march, she and her boyfriend Leopold went partying with friends, and Natalie was last seen in front of a fast food restaurant a week after her disappearance. Her torso was found on the side of a road
named the Path of Worry. Her head and other body parts were found off of Dump Road and Saint Semforian Street. Natalie was never reported missing, not even by Leopold, which certainly raised suspicions. When she turned up murdered. After her disappearance, police were unable to locate Leopold, further raising their suspicions about his involvement. But there was a reason that Leopold
was hard to locate. Nicknamed Legiton or the Gypsy, Leopold came from a family of traveling people, often referred to as gypsies. It was a rough life full of internessing, quarrels, and violence. In the same year as his arrest, it was reported that his brother was murdered by his cousin with a shotgun in a deadly dispute. Leopold was known as a tough guy who lived off the grid, so it's not surprising that police had a hard time tracking
him down. They suspected him of being on the run since Natalie's disappearance, and when finally they caught up to him, police found several incriminating elements, including blood sparrow on some of his clothes. Here's the Attorney General from the time, Claude Michaud.
Just after the disappearance of Natalie Goddart. We thought that he had fled. We understood that he had shaved his mustache, and we believed that he'd burned the clothes of Natalie. There were a series of elements that led the police and the investigating judge with good reason to suspect his involvement.
I spoke with a lawyer who represented Leopold Bogart at the time. Her name is Celine Paris and she's still practicing in Mars.
In the spring of nineteen ninety seven, the city of Mons was shocked and haunted about a series of absolutely macabre discoveries. They discovered trash bags full of dismembered female body.
Parts of Montchevsim White.
Yes, it was some time in March or April. I had been a lawyer for only six months, and one evening a client I had previously defended for a trivial offense called me from the prison and said Maco and they showed me a picture of my girlfriend and asked me where I hid her head. And at that point I understood right away why he'd been arrested, and then I went to see him in prison.
I asked her if she knows why Leopold suddenly left Moss right after Natalie's disappearance and what led police to suspect him. He got into some.
Sort of fight that night or the day after. It was after that that he decided to return to his family. They found this suspicious, and also the fact that before going back to his family, he had freshened up a bit, He had a shave and got a haircut, and these elements were apparently what prompted the investigating judge to order the arrest of my client. But you have to take into consideration that they didn't have any other leads and were desperate, which precipitated the arrest.
Leopold maintained his innocence, stating that he had nothing to do as Natalis's disappearance or murder. He cleimed the blood found on his clothing was from a fight, and later testing proved that it wasn't a match with any of the identified victims. Additional investigations failed to link Leopold to the crimes, with a negative blood test and no further evidence. Police became convinced that he wasn't their man. Leopold was released two weeks after his arrest. I'm innocent.
How does it fuse to be free?
Good because they put an innocent guy in prison?
Are you disgusted with Of course?
Yes?
Why did they.
Come out to see anything else?
I want to go back to my family.
They didn't have any proof again for you, excuse.
Me, I'm going home. I'm leaving. The public's brief sigh of relief was over and the terror came flooding back. Some of the body parts of the three identified victims hadn't been found, and there was a sense of uneasiness knowing that there were likely more remains discarded around mass The pace of almost daily developments slowed, the tension remained high. These continued searching on the ground and from the air. Then news of a new connection broke.
Dinu Vodona feldudipas.
New information regarding the affair of the butcher of Monts, who likely murdered a fourth victim. A torso that was found in the region of Valenciennes in France in January nineteen ninety six was identified by French investigators.
It was January twenty first, nineteen ninety six, six months before any of the victims of the Butcher of Mass were reported missing, a hiker made a gruesome discovery along the banks of the Escot River in France, thirty miles downriver from Moss. French police attended the scene to find a dismembered pelvis. It had been cut at the belly
and just above the knees. It was the pelvis and midsection of a female body, including the upper parts of Authorities had no idea who the victim was, and without a pattern of additional murders to link this crime to, it would take more than one and a half years
to identify the victim. After trash bags full of body parts started appearing in Moss in nineteen ninety seven, police aggressively followed up on all unresolved missing persons cases, as well as any other discoveries of unidentified remains in southern
Belgium and northern France. By comparing DNA extracted from the pelvis found in France with genetic material from family members of missing persons, it was established that the victim was Carmelina Rousseau, a forty two year old mother of three from mass She had been reported missing shortly after her disappearance the previous year, but her case had remained unsolved. Her family and friends couldn't think of any reason at all why someone would want to hurt her. Carmelina Rousseau
was originally from France. After meeting her husband, the couple moved to Moss in Belgium and started a family. Carmelina was devoted to her loved ones, and when she moved to Belgium, her parents followed her to be closer to their three grandchildren. Sadly, after her husband passed away, she found herself a widow, raising three children and taking care of aging parents. Life was difficult, and she did what she could to get by living in social housing and
working in various small jobs to make ends meet. By January nineteen ninety six, her son found himself serving time at a prison in Moss. On January fourth, Carmelina went to visit him. Afterward, she made her way to a supermarket, following an eastward route that took her through the city and passed the Central train station Round zero for the US other disappearances, The last sighting of Carmelina Rousseau was that evening January fourth, at around six pm at a
supermarket less than three miles from the train station. She was never seen alive again. I spoke with the only remaining lawyer representing a civil party in this affair. His name is Frank di Cippoli, and he represents the Rousseau family. Frank started off by reminding me, or maybe I should say warning me, that I'm investigating a case that's still active.
So you are making a podcast about an affair that isn't even yet finished. It's not a cold case because the investigation is still open, so it's particular you're actually within that investigation.
Belgium and most countries in Central Europe, for that matter, haven't, for the most part, experienced the phenomenon of active investigation pod casts. It would be an understatement to say that authorities don't welcome such initiatives. But Frank is a nice guy, and as a lawyer, I think he takes a position that more scrutiny is a good thing. He explained how he became involved in the case Javet Cleonqui.
I had a client who was in the prison of Monts, who was actually the son of Carmelina Russo. And it was after investigators had identified Carmelina Russo after finding part of her body. They had suspicions in the beginning about her son, who was in prison, and he was in prison for crimes involving violence, and so investigators thought maybe he had something to do with her murder. And at the time, they thought her death had happened at a
time when her son wasn't in prison. So they came to the prison and while the problem is that they didn't pull any punches, they were very direct and they showed the sun pictures of his mother, pictures of his mother's couldaver and he learned about the death of his mother while he was in prison. It was actually then that he learned that his mother was dead and that she'd actually been dismembered.
On prison.
And on top of that, he felt right away that he was being treated as a suspect, and so then he just went crazy. He ransacked his entire cell. I mean, the guards had to come in and suppress him, and then they realized quite quickly that he didn't have anything to do with the murder. And then he called me. He called me to explain all of this, and because he was now facing disciplinary measures because he'd rebelled so aggressively when they gave him the news, and that could
have consequences on his sentence. And he explained all of this to me, and that's how I got involved with this whole affair. It wasn't like the usual case where a family comes to see you because there's an investigation about the death of someone close. No, we were directly in the heat of the action via someone who was immediately considered as a suspect and then it was quickly realized that he was actually a victim.
Frank Gisippole went on to represent the children of Carmelina Rousseau in the butcher of Man's case, ensuring their mother's murder gets the attention it deserves. Frank is supportive of our work, but very conscious of something sacrisanct in Belgian law called les secret instruction, meaning that he's not allowed to share the case file or any confidential information related to the case. As the last remaining lawyer representing a civil party, he plays an important role in this affair.
For example, if new evidence is discovered, he can request additional duties of the investigating Jim, who can then order police to carry out further investigations. In short, this means that Frank could act as a direct line between our work and Belgian authorities. It's believed that Carmeline Russeau was the first victim of the butcher of Monts. It wasn't until after three other victims were discovered and identified that police were able to link her murder to this case.
Just like the other victims, Carmelin Ne Russeau was known to frequent establishments around the central train station, including the hotel and bar Le Metropol. The investigative journalist Frederic Laure explains.
Carmelin Russeau is probably the first victim of the passeo of montm She had a quite normal life, you know, and she even worked in an insurance company before disappearing. She didn't have mental and social problems like the others. She had a main job, she had her family, a place to live, and apart from that, she had a side job. She was selling lagerie in different places around the mont station, especially in the bars of the night
close to the station of Monts. You know those places where people, especially men of course go there to meet girls and especially prostituted. And we also know that she used to go to the Hotel Metropol and then there she met different people, but also some girls to sell them a laxurie. So now we have four victim and we are sure that they have one thing in common. They all spend time in the area of the station and they wear old customers of the Ottel Metropoli.
Carmelina's case is similar to the other victims in many ways, but there's a distinct difference. Her remains were found nearly thirty miles away from Mons, in neighboring France. You recall from the last episode that I visited various sites in Mons where victims body parts were discovered. So we just drove up to this bridge. We're on a street that's called Worry Way, Shmann, Did I get you to Worry Street? And it's right over a river that's called the River
of Hate. So what you have here is we're behind the train station, not very far. And if I'm on this bridge, and if I look down about two hundred meters in front of me, I see where the trunk of a body was found. In July of nineteen ninety six, turned out to be Bone. And then if I turn around and look a little bit to my left, I can see where the trunk of another body was discovered. This was on the twenty fourth of March, and this
was Natari Goda. And Morgan has an interesting theory that he thinks that all of the big body parts were dropped here into this river that I'm looking at right now, And I can see that the river is slightly flowing in the direction that I'm looking, which is away from Mons and towards France, where the trunk of the body of Carmelina Russo was found. So I'm standing in the place where the killer certainly always came to dispose of
the larger body parts of the victims. Given where Carmelina Rousseau's torso is found down river, it's highly likely that it was dumped into the water here in Moss and that it flowed down river towards France. Water levels are higher in January compared to July when Martin Bone's torso got stuck in an eddy nearby, so it would make sense that the disposal of Carmelina's torso in January made its way further down the river like most of the other victims. Her head has still never been found to
this day. It's horrifying to think that there are likely several body parts, including the heads, of victims, hidden somewhere here near to where I'm standing right now, or even worse, being kept as trophies by a twisted serial killer. There's something particular about Carmelina's remains that makes her case different from other victims. This is graphic material, so listener discretion is advised. The torsos and body parts of the three
later victims were cut with relative precision. Cuts were made along key articulations, which would have minimized blood loss and contamination. In fact, police initially focused their suspect profile on someone with experience in domains like surgery or butchery. However, Carmelina Rousseau's torso was severed at the level of her navel. This would have created a gruesome mess for whoever carried
it out. Amputating a torso at the navel would cause significant loss of bodily fluid and probable discharge of organs. None of the killer's subsequent victims were dismembered this way. Based on the date of her disappearance, we believe that Carmelina was the butcher of Moss's first known victim. It's probable that he learned from her abduction and murder and adjusted his method of dismemberment and disposal of future victims.
I was able to speak with a renowned Belgian profiler, doctor Danielle Zuguer, who actually trained Roy Hazelwood, one of the FBI's pioneers in behavioral analysis. I asked you about the significance of a serial killer's first murder.
So we can learn a lot with the first crime, because the first crime occurs often near a comfort zone, so you can define already an area where you could find a perpetrator. Of course, his modest operandi, which will change with the time, because he will make some progress each time he's committing a crime. He will learn from his errors, so he will make some progress too, so it gets more complicated to find him. This is why the first crime is so interesting and important for investigation.
With the experience, you know, criminals are like us. With experience, we get better at what we do, so it's the same for them. This is why you know the coach can be perhaps a bit difficult for the first crime or the control of the victim or the acting out of the fantasy is not quite the way he would like it to be, and also the disposal of the body. He will get better with the other crimes. And the first crime also shows if you have a very organized
offender or disorganized one. And it's important because it gives you clues about who he is, how he's functioning, where perhaps you can find him. And the more organized he is, the more distance is willing to go to find victim. There can be a trigger or not. When there is no trigger, it means that you know fantasy has become so loaded that it needs to come out. But there can be a trigger, and it can be a disappointment, frustration, anger, revert,
all kinds of motives. Really, it's the first time where he's acting out his fantasy, so you can understand what is his fantasy. Of course you can understand it with the later crimes too, but sometimes make some mistakes. But yeah, first crimes are always very important because they give you the maximum of clues.
Doctor Zuker's point about early mistakes is interesting. Indeed, we believe that Carmelina Rousso was his first victim, but was she his first attempt. It's relatively common for serial killers early efforts to be unsuccessful. A number of infamous monsters like Ted Bundy or David Berkowitz aka the Son of Sam, or Gary Ridgeway aka the Green River Killer, who failed
at their first attempts. We believe that there are likely other women who may have had close calls with the Butcher of Moss, perhaps without even knowing how close they came to meeting similar fates as the other victims. As we attempt to narrow down a profile of the perpetrator, I spoke with the investigative journalist Frederick Law about what he thinks we can assume about the killer at this point.
Based on what we know now, I think we can drew several assumptions about the killer. First of all, we think that he was living and operating in Monts. If you think about it, it made no sense kill someone outside the city and then dismember them, and then to drive into Monts and dumb them. A second assumption is that we firmly believe that he had a car, because if you visit the different sites where the bodies were found,
you immediately understand that he needed a car. And then a third assumption is we believe finally that he must frequent the area around the railway station, and he probably knew all the victims. They had to know him a little bit at least. Remember the pack of cigarettes at Jacqueline's house. Her sister Georgette was firmly convinced that it belongs to the perpetrator. Also, Natalie was finally seen just in front of the train station, and if someone had
taken her by force, it would have been noticed. If we look at all of these assumptions, it narrows the profile of the perpetrator.
You recall from the last episode that we tracked down a woman who were calling Giselle. We confirm that she was contacted by police because her DNA was a possible match with an unknown DNA profile that was found at one of the dumb sites. The unknown profile was from a strand of hair found in one of the fifteen trash bags. Giselle told us that in nineteen ninety six she was living with a community of traveling people on
the outskirts of Moss. Police took a DNA sample from her in twenty twenty three in an attempt to validate the match, but she never heard back from them. Our investigative team has been trying to find out if the testing was ever carried out and if so, what the result was. Unfortunately, the only information that we received is that the related case details are all confidential. Like Giselle, the suspect who was arrested and subsequently released, Leopold Bogart
also hails from a family of traveling people. It's an interesting possible connection. But is it simply a coincidence or something more. I asked Giselle if she knew or had any connection to Leopold Bogart, but she said she knew nothing about him. We investigated further and learned that Leopold's traveling community was from a different part of the country than the community that Giselle was with in nineteen ninety six.
They appeared to have nothing in common, but through another improbable coincidence, I learned that Giselle had once been represented by the same lawyer as Leopold Bogart for an entirely unrelated matter. As you heard at the top of the episode, I tracked down this attorney, named Celene Paris. Towards the end of that interview, I asked her about Giselle and Leopold. She was also surprised by this coincidence, but didn't remember
representing Giselle as it was several years ago. She did say that she could look into it, but only at the request of Gisel, so I put the two of them in contact Madame de dit Mord. Selene and Giselle were able to connect the dots of their past relationship, and after Giselle explained the possible DNA match and lack of response by authorities, Selene expressed her willingness to check
with the district attorney on her behalf. This may be the only way for us to break through the confidential wall regarding this aspect of the case.
This affair is sowing panic in the region of Mons since the end of March until now fifteen trash bags containing body parts have been found in places that were maybe not chosen by chance based on their names.
Five months into the investigation, authorities now knew that the Butcher of Moss had been an active serial killer for over a year, claiming four known victims. The citizens and the press only had their imaginations and a set of gruesome facts to guide them, and those facts were exceedingly grim, and news of the dumb site names only serve to reinforce the panic. The investigative journalist Frederic Lau recalls covering this aspect of the case.
So because of those hevocative names of the places where the bodies the pieces were discovered, the investigators began to think that the killer was playing a kind of game. It almost felt like a treasure hunt. Names like the River of eight, the path of Rory Damp Road, the River of Fear. I'm in French, Rudy Bassa, I'm not sure of the translation, and public discovered this and it created more fear in the public.
The translation of Rude Bassa is Pelvis Road. Indeed, the names of the dumb sites really felt like more than a coincidence, and journalists and psychologists scrambled to establish a profile of the butcher of mass.
The serial killer of Mons is a dangerous psychopath, completely exceptional case in the annals of criminality. Until now, there have been no examples of serial killers in Western Europe who dismember their victims. The reference comes from the United States. Analysts are reduced to theoretical assumptions to determine the psychological profile of the killer.
We can consider that the profile is someone intelligent, maybe also someone provocative, who seeks to create sensation because his techniques are rather extraordinary and exceptional. May be also someone influenced by all that comes from America and the latest films that we've seen in movie theaters.
Gipsy psychopaths are generally very sensitive to their image in the media, which could explain the macabre treasure hunt he's imposing on investigators by disposing of the sacks in various locations.
He must have a developed sense of narcissism, someone who likes to watch himself and hear about himself on the radio and television, knowing that he has him impotence in the media, he's developing his image and feeding his narcissism.
In nineteen ninety one, Jeffrey Dahmer made headlines after being arrested and accused of killing and dismembering at least seventeen victims. Decades before Dahmer, other US serial killers, like the Torso Killer,
dismembered their victims as well. Right around the same time, The Butcher of Moss began as Murdersprey, the American movie seven was released in theaters in Europe, starring Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman, who worked together to track down a serial killer orchestrating a string of gruesome crimes that left behind symbolic clues. Western European media thought that the influence of real and fictional American serial killers might be influencing the Butcher of Moss. As the spring of nineteen ninety
seven gave way to summer, the gruesome discoveries stopped. Police were furiously investigating the case, but since the arrest and release of Leopold Bogart, there weren't any strong persons of interest on the radar. People began to assume that the killer had either decided to stop or was spooked away from Moss. Nightlife around the train station came to a virtual standstill, and police increased patrols throughout the city to strike again, with the city on Hiler would have been Madness.
Janan, a thirty eight year old woman, disappeared two weeks ago in Mont's. Investigators are exploring a link with the Butcher of Mon's case in so far as the missing woman has a similar profile as other victims of the serial killer.
The scene was completely out of the ordinary and we had to move quickly and try to determine who was in the trash bags.
List are now confirming that the body, cut into pieces and stopped into two plastic garbage bags found in this slot near the Brooklyn Navy Yard last month is indeed that of sixty one year old Mary Beale.
Over the years, we continued to work on the case and interviewed over one thousand people.
Los America, and then.
At one point we were contacted by the Americans.
The fact that he was in Belgium around the time of the Monds murders, which remained unsolved but bore many of the same macabre hallmarks, left many to suspect that he may have been involved in those as well.
That's next time on the Monstre. The Monstre is a production of tender for TV and iHeart Podcasts, hosted, written, and executive produced by me At Graves. Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay are executive producers on the behalf of Tenderfoot TV, with producer Makeup and Vanity Set. Matt Frederick and Trevor Young are executive producers on the behalf of iHeart Podcasts. Original music by Jay Ragsdale, Sound design and master by Cooper Skinner. Cover design by Brian McCoy and Trevor Eiler.
Lea Monstre includes archival audio from Sonnema RTBF Archives. Special thanks to Orrin Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, the Nord Group, and our active investigation team Morgen van Leherberg, frederch Loah Xervi de Com and Alan Gardon, as well as the teams at iHeart Podcasts and Tenderfoot TV. Find us on social media at Monster Underscore pod. For more podcasts like le Monstre, search Tenderfoot TV in your podcast app,
or visit tenderfoot dot tv. Ready to keep listening, remember you can binge the rest of the season right now with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts Plus. You'll get exclusive bonus episodes and add free listening. So head to Apple Podcasts, search iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today