Welcome to lawyer business advantage. This podcast is dedicated to helping attorneys earn more money get better clients and spend more time with family. I'm your host, Ale Y, founder of Law firm success group. Smart business guidance for small law firms begins in 321. It's my pleasure to welcome back to Lawyer business advantage, Sa Ro, the owner of Ro floss. Sasha. How are you doing today? I'm doing great.
How are you? I'm doing great. It's great to have you back in the show, and we're talking about a topic that near and dear to your heart and to mine, which is if you're an introvert, how on earth are you gonna bring in business. Both of us are introverts and know we may not appear that way. In our... In the way that we market ourselves, but
we both need to recharge. What are some of the challenges that you've experienced and that you've seen other experience, Saga when it comes to business development. When I first started networking, my limitation in this introvert felt debilitating. So I grew up in part the middle East that is very, very conservative and told women and girls that it was virtuous to be unseen and unheard. And I was considered quiet in that society standards.
So joining a networking organization starting to network in lawyers circles felt daunting. And I developed type 1 diabetes few years ago adult onset type 1 diabetes. So my devices that do my pancreas job made me feel even more self conscious about not working. And Sasha, for those people who weren't feeling familiar with what those alerts and things are. Would you mind just giving us a quick overview? So type 1 Diabetes means your pancreas does not produce in insulin at all.
And you... I wear 2 devices. 1 measures my blood sugar every 5 minutes, and the other gives me insulin. The 1 that measures my blood sugar alerts me when my blood sugar is going too high or too low. And so it would go off during the networking meeting, and people would turn and look at me, and that was, maybe feel even more uncomfortable than I was, it would go after during business lunches as if I needed something to make my networking even more difficult.
Wow. Oh my gosh. And that an introvert when you're coming into these meetings, there's 30, 40 people in the room. When you first started, how how would you how would you feel when you did that? I would hope that nobody would approach me. I would just show up as a sort of dreaded obligation. I need to do this. I am going to appear. Hopefully nobody talks to me. I will just disappear into the sit in the corner, hope nobody approaches me.
And 1 thing I will say is that having 1 on ones with people, helped a lot because those conversations really made it easier once I got to know people 1 in 1 to go back to the next networking meeting. It took a lot of effort at first. Once I got the hang of it, things were much easier. Yeah. 1 of the things that I I think about a lot. I don't know how often I say it, but is that personal growth happens outside of our comfort zones. And the situation you were way outside of your
comfort zone. And so, I expect that it sounds like it could be really terrifying. And You know, what kept you in it? Like, why didn't you just say, okay. Well, I have to do this. I'm out of here. But you hung in there? Why did you hang in there? I was tucked to, but I stuck to it and decided to figure it out and decided to challenge myself because I needed
resources for my clients. So I wanted... And this was during a tumultuous time and integration loss so my client seated more resources, more advisors than usual. And I needed to connect them with all types of attorneys and experts to help the of their cases. And as a practice owner, of course, referral networking is for me, has been the most effective form of business development. So It felt like something I needed to at the beginning door until I figured it out and then found
my... The mode that works for me. Another thing you mentioned is that you said that the 1 on ones were good. Like you really enjoyed that 1 on 1 interaction. And for most of us who are introverted that is where we thrive. And so if we can just get past that initial hump where we're dealing with all of this social anxiety you know, all the energy that
we just wanna escape. If we can get past that, build a couple connections and then move very quickly as possible, into, like, a 1 on 1 type of conversation, we can really break through, and we can have success. I was just interviewing Gary Johnson, who you know. And he was talking about how introverts are actually very successful at networking or can be because we listen really well. We don't need to be talking all the
time. That was very insightful, and that all makes sense provided we can get past that that initial hump and start to connect with people. So you're in the situation where, you know, people are... Where you're really thinking, you just don't wanna be seen or notice or talk to. Yet you know you have to keep showing
up. What was the change... What were some changes that you made to kinda move from where you were, which was being totally not really wanting to network to where now, which is you're just absolutely unstoppable when it comes to networking and you're everywhere. So I read Acts networking for people hate networking, and that was a game changer, and they'll always be grateful for her for writing that book.
And I force myself to implement the theories in her book among the top suggestions is to, before a networking event, you gather your energy and schedule time after networking event to also I'll gather your energy, and she has tips on how to survive small talk. The the main thing for that made networking doable for me is to focus on giving.
So I learned that during the early few months of quarantine, I learned about a company that sends glucose gel necklaces to type 1 diabetic front my markers, type 1 zinc to carry sugar on them at all times, and they were sending them for free. So I was very touched by their generosity, and I decided to speak publicly about my type 1 diabetes, which I used to keep a secret, in order to support this company. So that same mindset transferred to a networking context.
So When I'm not working, I am seeking opportunities, I'm listening for opportunities to support my colleagues, whether that's for for all or finding them, speaking opportunity or whatever kind of support they're looking for, and then that abundance mindset that giving drive, Boomerang and comes back to you in the form of what you're looking for to build your business. I love that. So you really took the... In some ways, you took the your own personal spotlight off of you and
put it on other people. Exactly You transferred, you, that anxiety that you had. You said it doesn't really matter. I'm not even gonna think about my myself. I'm just gonna focus on how it can help other people. Exactly. And maybe you weren't dwelling on that as much. And I love the idea about taking some time to charge up for a meeting, and then batteries get depleted, charge up after the meeting
as well. Just out of curiosity, I love to compare notes because you and I run our share of networking meetings, which is incredibly exhausting about how much time do you take before the meaning to charge up and about how much time do you take after meaning to recharge? It depends on the extent of my involvement
in the in the meeting. So if I'm just showing up, then now it takes just about half an hour, afterwards, not necessarily of doing something relaxing, but just... I make sure that I don't have any client meetings scheduled in that half hour after a networking meeting. And I usually schedule networking 1 on ones in the afternoon. So that in the morning, I and the early afternoon and my energy. My attention is focused just on my
legal work. And then if I'm running the meeting myself, then I'll block off a couple of hours afterwards, during which it's merely impossible to get a hold of me sort of a fire alarm. That's cool. And we're very similar. So, you know, if I'm in a meeting, but I'm not running it, it's usually a couple of hours afterwards. But after I run a meeting, it's
really generally half a day, sometimes longer. And I can tell, like, if I have to do something in that down period, my energy is definitely down, and I'm not at the top of my game. So makes a lot of sense and it's this really, really cool suggestion to do it. I think most of us who are introverted to do these kinds of events naturally have to do that anyways. Just kind of the the coping mechanism that we have to do. So giving ourselves permission to to do that makes a ton of sense. I just out
of curiosity, You know why networking? You could've have you could have done writing. You could have done speaking. And actually, now they think about it. You do those things as well. And so you know, as an introvert, how would you compare and contrast the 3 forms of the typical forms of business development, whether it's networking, writing slash social media and speaking. I surprised myself when I started to experiment with those kinds of business development. I was...
I've been really surprised at the reactions I've got when I've spoken, I've been surprised that the reactions I've got when I posted on Linkedin, And I've been very surprised stunned at the results I've gotten in networking. So it wasn't necessarily a deliberate kind of let me do all these things and see at 6. It was just sort of a... Well this is what law firm owners tend to do to... So let me do them. And when I started to see results, I kept engaging in all of them.
Very cool. And, yeah having a lot of success with all 3. Let's jump back to networking because I think that's pretty much what we're talking about today. And you moved from being a, a member at large in this organization which is supervisors to a group leader, and you did that in a relatively short period of time. So we'd love to get the... Your... The insider perspective from you on how this all actually happened. It was very unexpected. I had emailed the Bay Area's regional director, Ian Bur.
In 20 20, and I told him about Book. And I said, Fyi, if you have any numbers who are struggling who are introverts who are I haven't a hard time making the most out of their membership. You should recommend this book for them it really helped me. And his response to that was I have my sights on you to be the group leader of San francisco 14. And I I thought he was joking. I
thought he was... He had a member of other candidates in mine, but sure enough he sending me the offer formally, and I accepted, and I was so honored by his choosing me that I worked really hard. I really poured my heart soul to book the group, and it's become very, very successful. We've broke in a number of records and info advisors and 3 years into leadership, and sometimes I still can't believe what I've accomplished. Yeah. You're totally crushing it. Why do you think ian thought of you?
I've asked him that question many times and I'm still not a hundred percent clear, but I've told candidates that he's since approached for our leadership of other groups. If ian is seeing potential in you, then you definitely have potential even if it don't see in yourself. I'm pretty sure he doesn't just identify people who are shy. Right? Who are not seen in the group. So you were doing a number of things to at least increase your visibility.
Yes. Within pro profiles going back to that time can you identify some of the things that you were doing that maybe other members we're not? I was forcing myself to guest. It took me a long time about 8 or 9 months into membership before I finally be made myself do it. And this is pre Covid, so it meant waking up 04:30 35 Am to drive to the side of the bay and fine parking and all that. And I went out of my way to do really memorable testimonials.
And that is part of the abundance mindset they're giving mentality of really making the person who refers you business making them shining during the meeting. And, as my friend, in San francisco 5 Matthew K says when you shy and others it on you. I think that's part of what Ian, noticed. He likes to tell the story that at my very first supervisor meeting in 20 18.
He noticed that I wasn't in the room and he stepped outside into the hallway and found me trembling and had to actually drag me into the meeting. So I'm glad he took that chance on Meeting and it's worked at really well it's time. Well, I I don't know how much of a chance he took on you to be
honest. I mean, it sounds like, he recognized how far you would come and how much of an effort you had to put in and didn't come naturally to you, like it does is so many other people who are networking, when you had to work really the hard for it. And you didn't just do the bare minimum, you were waking up at 4 or 35 o'clock in the morning to drive to places. You were,
you know, being present everywhere. You're thinking of other people first and how you could help them, and when someone would be kind of enough to send you a referral, you do a phenomenal job of thanking them. That sounds like a model pro member a model networking member to me, and it's no surprise that you were on the shortlist list for running a group. Thank you. I think my...
The skills that I e sort of intrinsically have and that I developed more as a throughout my career an immigration lawyer, also came in handy because immigration, you have to be mindful of both the very minor details as well as the big picture. So I just sort of automatically apply those skills to everything I do. So improvise, I'm very well organized very every piece of data and my life goes into a spreadsheet.
And so nothing's things organized like that means that I don't miss the opportunity to give somebody testimonial give me a referral. I don't know things off the cracks, and then with the goods that I won, it's also extremely organized and very a lot of thoughts and many thanks to my wonderful Ec for helping me run a well mission. Yeah. It takes the village. Isn't it. But for all you know working folks that are out there who are introverted and trying to figure out how to make this work.
Massage laid out a great blueprint that worked well for her. And if you have the courage and 10 to execute it and the heart, it will work well for you. But I think those things are important. You have to have the heart, Your heart has to be in the right place because networking working is about helping others and as an introvert because you listen well, you can do that better than most. That's number 1. Number 2, you have to have the
10 to do it. It means you're gonna be out of your comfort zone a lot. It will not be easy. It will be exhaust thing, It does get easier with time, but it'll still be exhausting. So just know that you're you're doing that, and the price at the end is worth it, It has to be worth to you. And then you have to have the courage to do it.
It's really easy to not do this or to just do it in a half hearted way and say, yeah, I put in the hours and went to the meetings, but it's not just working for me, and I'm not gonna do it anymore. I'm gonna do other things. That's the easy way out. The courage is to, you know, embrace the fact that Although this may not be easy for you to do,
you can do it. And you can be open about it, You can talk to people about things that are holding you back and people far it from people not respecting you as a result. They're actually gonna hold you in higher respect because And say, my gosh, you're going through all of this and you are still here? Are you kidding me? I need a hole with my head in a blanket if it was me. So those are the things you you can deploy if you wanna be really
good at networking. And and as an introvert, you can be very successful at Sa and I are both examples of that. And you also want... There is a non capable element of luck, so I was referring to supervisors on named at you at a bar association, holiday party, and you must have been the 1 who start the conversation. And then you referred me to supervisors under the rest history, so that was my good fortune to have prospects with you at that point in time. Yeah. Well, mine too, for
sure. I'm glad about jump in this podcast together, and we can chat. And I'm looking forward to our next talk and I just realized what it could be if you're up for it. Let's talk a little bit about social media and Linkedin specifically as Introvert. How's does that sound? No. Alright. So attorney Entrepreneurs, we will see you next week Raj and I will be back, and we are gonna talk about Linkedin for introverts. Sasha. Thank you so much for being on
V business advantage podcast podcasts today. Thank you, Ali for every wonderful thing you've introduced to my life. My my pleasure of course, and my honor. And if people wanna reach out to you, what's the best way for them to do that? My website is SAR dot law. My initials dot law. Alright. Terrific. So As will see back here in next week. And we'll see all of you back here next week too. Thank you
very much. Thank you, Elaine. If that's a wrap for this episode of the Lawyer business advantage podcast. 1 thing that would really help both us and other new potential listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a comment in itunes stitch or wherever you tune in to listen. And I wanna hear from you. So connect with me on Linkedin and let me know what you think of this episode.
And if you are a solo or an owner of a small law firm, and you're looking to earn more money, attract better clients or reduce your stress, We would love to talk with you to see how we can help. Request your free law firm assessment by visiting law firm success group dot com. Again, that Url is law firm success group dot com. We look forward to talking with you soon. Thank you for listening. My name is La Y. Until next time, remember, you can seize Freedom. You can embrace happiness.
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