This is Later with Lee Matthews The Lee Matthews Podcast More What You Here weekday afternoons on the Drive. Stephen Stephen Talty. Stephen Talty is an award winning author of Agent Garbeaux, Empire of the Blue Water, the other best selling works of narrative nonfiction. His books have also been made into two films, including Captain Phillips and Only the Brave. His newest creation comes on the anniversary
of what was the tragedy at Waco. It's called Koresh The True Story of David Koresh and that Tragedy at Waco and Stephan, thanks for joining us. Great to be here. Let's go back to the beginning and David Koresh's childhood. Yeah, that's really where it all begins. I went down to Texasus and spoke to some of his family and his friends, and what I found is that from the beginning, David Koresh had a big ego. He was a narcissist, and he didn't get what he needed in childhood, especially from
the male figures in his life. His father abandoned him, his stepfather beat him and sort of humiliated him. So he grew up feeling, you know, I'm I'm being I'm an important person who's sort of being ignored and mistreated, and he needed a way to sort of get that respect and that that love back in his life. And what eventually happened is he founded at Waco. He began leading this branch Davidian sect, and the more sort of approval and love he got, the more he needed. It was sort of a
never ending story. What brought him into a ministry and wanting to be I mean, was there some sort of religious leader or somebody in his life that led him to his religion. You know, he seems to almost have been born with this sense of faith. Would listen to the preachers on the radio and Texas growing up, we'd go to the local congregations. His mother was, you know, a Seventh day Adventist, so he had a lot of religion around him, but he really took it seriously. He would pray for
hours. He was you know, a lot of people think he was kind of just a command but David Koresh was serious about his faith. I have to give him that, and he just wanted to to lead people and to sort of show him his interpretation of the Bible. Koresh the true story of David Koresh and the tragedy at Waco. We're talking to Stephan Talti, who is the author of the book. So in his youth, did he have romances or did all of this kind of keep him away from that type of
activity. Now, he definitely did. I mean, David Koresh was a good looking guy. He was He had a sort of sports phase where he was a great runner, He was in shape, played the guitar pretty well, so you know, he was kind of a catch. But he had this deep conflict within himself. He thought that he should remain pure for his you know, true bride, and that he was kind of flirting with the devil a little bit by playing you know, Satan's music rock and roll hall.
So he always had this conflict where it always led him back to God. That was the only sort of path to greatness he felt that he could do without having guilt. So no, David Koresh definitely had girlfriends. I spoke to his last girlfriend before he went to Waco, and they had a bad breakup, and he sort of was looking for whatever whatever you want to call it, the truth salvation, and he found this sort of small religious sect in Waco, and you know everything changed after that. So he found
them. They did not bring him in. Yes, he found them, but you know, they were sort of looking for their next profit. The Branch Davidians are a very prophetic group. You have to sort of see the future to lead them, and that's what David Koresh specialized in. If he if he got you in a room and he was talking about the Bible, you'd be in trance. He was a brilliant speaker. So slowly he sort of pushed out the old leader and assumed the power that she had and really
took over the sect. Stephantalty is with us Koresh the true story of David Koresh and the Tragedy of Waco, And then he starts he starts being very prolific in Waco with the Branch Davidians. But it seems pretty benign to me at the beginning. At what point did things start to get kind of where they were getting the attention of the government. Yeah, just to go back a little bit, that did surprise me. I mean, David Koresh really
did try to be a Christian in the beginning. I mean he helped drug addicts that he came across, He counseled people, He kind of helped his followers find jobs. So in the beginning he wasn't a dark figure, I don't think. But as time went on, he was promising his followers the end times, the apocalypse, and he would say, you know, the other leaders said it was going to be one hundred years or a two hundred years in the future, but it's going to happen in our lifetimes. That's
what he was promising them. So not only did he become more paranoid about you know, the young girls he was sleeping with and the guns he was accumulating, he was, in a way, I think, kind of you know, anticipating this confrontation with the government because he needed to show his followers that he was the real deal, he was the Messiah. It couldn't happen, you know, two hundred years from now. That would do him no
good. So he was not only breaking the law, which he really did, but he was also looking for ways to confront what he called Babylon, which was America in this two sorry in nineteen nineties, the federal government. He felt that they had become infidels and that he was going to show America the true lights, the true way forward, and Stephan Talty's with us. The book that he's written is called Koresh and the True Story of David Koresh and the Tragedy at Waco. So what illegalities did he? I mean,
what was the first thing that got the attention of the Feds? The first thing that really got their attention was there was a UPS deliveryman who often delivered to the compound in Waco, and one day he had a box going there and a casing for a hand grenade fell down, which is not something you see that often. So all it needed was the black powder, et cetera
to become active. He got nervous about it. He contacted the sheriff, and the sheriff contacted the ATF, which you know, which handles these kinds of things. So they opened an investigation and really bungled it. You know, they nabbed David Koresh. Outside the compound. He would go into Waco, go to the guitar stores, go to restaurants. He was you know, he was available. But they, you know, their surveillance teams didn't
realize this. So they decided on a raid. The biggest in their history, and that initial confrontation left for atf AG instead some Davidians dead, and of course then we went into the FBI siege. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I was getting at, because from what I understood, he did go for regular jogs and they could have easily enabbed him on one of those jogs. Yeah, you know, And I've I've spoken with the planners, the ETF guys who who planned this, and I have to say, they man
up. They say, you know, we we mess up this investigation. It wasn't the guys on the ground, you know, the eighties plus agents who went in that day who messed up. They performed very well. It's really the middle management, the guys who were overseeing the project who just didn't realize that this could have been handled much much more cleanly, much more simply,
and decided on this disastrous raid. Stephen Talty Koresh the true story of David Koresh and the tragedy at Waco, and then all of this is said to have inspired Timothy McVeigh. Yeah, Timothy McVeigh traveled to Waco. He was very disturbed by what he thought was happening, which as he saw it was the federal government really harassing and attacking these you know, Christian gun rights people that McVay felt a kinship with, so he went there. He had
bumper stickers sort of attacking the federal government. And Waco really was a turning point for mcvayh he once it was over, he felt he wanted to strike back and sort of in a way, get revenge for the French. Davidian and you can read all about it and Stephan Talty's Koresh The True Story of
David Koresh and the Tragedy at Waco. I thank you for joining us and for your new volume, Thanks for having thanks for listening to Later with Lee Matthews, the Lee Matthews Podcast, and remember to listen to The Drive Live weekday afternoons from five to seven and iHeartMedia Presentation