This is later with Lee Matthews the Lee Matthews Podcast. More of what you hear weekday Afternoons on the Drive. Nancy Birsky has worked as a photographer and picture editor in the International department of The New York Times. She's also a documentary filmmaker. Her latest creation is called Desperate Souls, Dark City, and the Legend of Midnight Cowboy. But Nancy, this is not about the making
of Midnight Cowboy. That's correct. We do get into the making and as it pertains to what I consider the moment of Midnight Cowboy, this is really about all the influences, all the things that were circling around this film team as they were making this film and taking a look at the society, the climate, the culture, all those things that were happening in the sixties to make us feel that Midnight Cowboy was almost inevitable. Inevitable in what way?
I mean. I've seen the movie and I like the love the movie, and I remember how much it was influencing pop culture, and it's been influencing pop culture. But what was going on in the psyche of the nation then at that time that makes you think, Okay, this was inevitable. You know, it's interesting you mentioned the psyche. I think it is things that were happening almost unconsciously. We're living through the Black Civil rights era, the
beginning of it. Actually, this is really coming to four in the sixties, most importantly Vietnam, which is causing young people and eventually everybody to begin to question that war and question authority. And without that question and of authority, we might not have had the gay rights movement. We have Stone Wall that follows Vietnam by a month, I'm sorry, that follows Midnight Cowboy by the month. So we have all of this disruption taking place, and at
the same time, what comes in nineteen sixty eight. These people set out to make a film that's unlike anything you've ever seen. They're looking at society in a stark, realistic way. We haven't really seen that before, so I think it's all of a piece, That's what I'm saying that, you know, as we're looking at society in a more realistic way as people who are living through it, people who are creating art are also looking at society
in a very realistic way. Nancy Birsky, director of the documentary Desperate Souls, Dark City and the legend of Midnight Cowboy at this time too, And I don't know if this started it or what. We were getting more color films and we were getting more films that were more gritty. It's as though filmmakers were trying to out grit each other. But did that maybe start with Midnank Cowboy. I think it did, And I don't think that anyone was
trying to out writ anybody else. I think they were just trying to look at what surrounded them in a very realistic way. And since much of this film takes place on Time Square or takes place in this you know, this tenement that they are squatting in, basically that was gritty. How else do you show that. You don't make that slick, you don't make it pretty. This was a film about people who are not living to very pretty life. So I think that this was an effort to be as realistic about society
as they could be well, and also a disillusionment. You certainly see. All I see in the character of John Voyd is disillusionment through the whole film. He's a sad character and yet keep systens, which is kind of what is so heartwarming about the film. You know, I often wonder why, with all that grittiness did this film last as it did. It's one of
the big questions that we posed ourselves when we made the movie. And I think that we see some real humanity in John Boyd's character Joe Buck and also especially Dustin Hoffman's character rest of Rizzo, who could have been just so unpleasant, and Hoffman places him in a kind of peculiar, offbeat way with real humor. This is the name of the documentary, is Desperate Tole's Dark City and the Legend of Midnight Cowboy. We're talking to the director Nancy Berski,
who is with us. This was also at the height of the counterculture movement, especially in big cities like New York. Correct. I mean, that's that's again all part of the same thing. Counterculture represents a kind of pushback on what is the conventional accepted culture. They're questioning, they're questioning, you know, society around them, and it's coming out in their art. They're saying, we don't have to do it the way people expect us to do
it. It's one large psyche of of questioning and subversiveness and change. I mean, I think everybody is now eager for change, and so I think we see that in the film. But again, the film is not dealing with any of those things specifically. It's not dealing with, you know, the black civil rights movement, it's not dealing with people protesting against Vietnam. It's not dealing with any of those things overtly. But the psyche is there,
as you said, yeah, and Nancy Birski is with us. The name of the documentary is Desperate Souls, Dark City and the Legend of Midnight Cowboy. I didn't realize until recently it got an X rating for about a minute. Okay, it did get It did get an X rating. That was due to the producers themselves, who requested the rating. They had been told, remember this is a period of time when homosexuality was a crime.
Yeah, And they were told by a psychiatrist that because he considered this film gay friendly, and that if it were gay friendly, then perhaps this would influence you know, vulnerable young men to cross over and become gay and all of that, which was all nonsense, of course, And and so they said, well, listen, this is going to protect us if we have a gay If this is I'm sorry, if this is an X rating film, then no one can accuse us of um attracting vulnerable and or to our
film. Um. And of course, very soon after that people realized that was nonsense, and when asked to change, when asked to change anything in the film in order to achieve an R right rating, they refused. But they got the R rating anyway. Yeah, because by today's standards, it's pretty dame it It certainly is. I think that you know, one of the one the in our film, John Lessenger's nephew, Ian Bruna Brooma, makes a really powerful point that the film is first of all, it's not
dealing with gay characters as such. The two protagonists they have an unusual relationship and a beautiful relationship, but there's no you're not sure what is happening in that relationship. It's ambiguous. Um. But it does deal with some ideas about homosexuality in the way that gays were treated. Then, yeah, and that's pretty important. You know that we see that these they gave gay men have a tough life. Yeah. Yeah, and all of that I mean
just comes out in there and there and their interactions with one another. But yeah, I think what you are. What you're referring to the beautiful relationship is that they realize they need each other to survive. They really do. And I'd like to think that we can broaden that idea, and that is that not only do individuals need each other tot, but I think, you know, society needs all of We all need each other to survive. You know, we all need to push back on things that are unfair and and
and what we call systemic injustice and injustice in general. I mean, we really do need to help each other or we're going to be in serious trouble. Desperate Souls, Dark City and the Legend of Midnight Cowboy, the documentary is out of everywhere you see your documentaries and films. Nancy Bersky is the director and I thank you for joining us today. It's my pleasure. Thank
you. Thanks for listening to Later with Lee Matthews, the Lee Matthews Podcast, and remember to listen to The Drive Live weekday afternoons from five to seven and I Hearts Media Presentation