This is Later with Lee Matthews, The Lee Matthews Podcast. More of what You here weekday afternoons on the Drive. Dwayne Epstein is the author of many books New York Times bestsellers, Lee Marvin point Blank, and other acclaimed biographies. His newest creation is Killing General is the Making of the Dirty Dozen, the most iconic World War Two movie of all time? Dwayne, It's one of my favorites. But to you, what makes it one of the most iconic? Well, oh, well, good morning, Lee. Um.
I'll be honest with you. I didn't come up with that subtitle. I was the publisher's idea. I personally think it's yon. I personally think it's iconic because of remaking cast and the ensemble aspect of it. One of the
best casts in the movie history, in my opinion. And at the time it came out in nineteen sixty seven, there was never really any kind of film even close to that kind of cutting edge action and anti establishment um demeanor and theme and you never you had never seen in a film before where there
really wasn't any any good guy to root for. Every everybody was a little anti hero or or you know, excuse me, but the military establishment came off like an American corporation, and that they weren't very likable and they weren't very smart. And the character that Lee Marvin played, the lead character, John Reisman, was very much a maverick and didn't go by the rules.
And at the time the film came out in nineteen sixty seven, that was a very popular idea that you can't you know, you can't trust anybody over thirty and things of that nature. All at all, it was just a wonderfully done package to make for a powerful uh film. Dwayne Epstein and the book is Killing Generals the making of the Dirty Dozen, and this movie it came out, had a lot of competition that was a little less gritty. Yeah, there was a hell of a year sixty seven. It was a
pivotal year in American film history. In the Heat of the Night came out Cool Hand, Loup, Bonnie and Clyde. Oh my gosh, so many great movies the Graduate, But I don't know, they weren't the same kinds of movie. They were. They were important films yet, but The Dirty doesn't change the rules of filmmaking in a different way. I won't go into the whole story about how it was the end of the studio system and the
production code was changing. But The Dirty doesn't challenge all those rules like nor the film had before, and it wounded up becoming the number one film in the country. Well, and another thing you saw in that year was the change and how and how camera angles were shot. You started seeing more close
ups and more quick takes and quick cuts. Right, yeah, absolutely absolutely, And as you said, a moment ago different camera angles, like in the opening of The Dirty doesn't when they you know, when Lee Marvin's character has to go and witness a hanging, the director Robert Aldres put the camera under the gallows so when the body dropped, you saw it from the bottom up. And he did that by digging a hole into the company, into the sound stage. I mean, those kind of things hadn't been done before.
Talking about killing generals. The making of The Dirty Dozen of book by Dwain Epstein. If you are a movie film you'll love this. And maybe this wasn't the Well, I guess it was kind of the first to usher in that new age of war movie. The Kelly's Heroes followed it, where Eagles dare color grit no heroes anti heroes and the military brass are are almost always the enemy instead of the Nazis. Right, absolutely, right, fact, Lee Marvin has a line in the film where he tells Ralph Meeker,
the guy who plays a psychiatrist, you know these guys hate you. And Lee Marvin's character says that's because you know they the Germans haven't met them yet, so you know, the characters the military more than the Nazis. And this put Lee Marvin on the map. He's an actual War War two head, yes he is. He served in the Pacific as a marine during World War Two and he uh he was wounded, that got the purple heart and um uh. He brought a lot of his own experience into the character.
And you know, it's been said over the years that Lee Marvin was not a fan of The Dirty Does. Actually that's not true. He didn't think the premise was very believable, but the film itself he liked a lot. He thought it was really really well done. Oh I remember you can tell yeah, I'm sorry, no, it's we have a delay here because of the digital thing. But and I apologize too for jumping on you. But
but when I saw it for the first time. I remember thinking that, wow, this is kind of implausible, but it was one hell of a ride, right, yeah, exactly the point. Yeah, Dwayne empstyould say this, go ahead. I'm sorry, just real quick. Um that that there was no dirty doesn't that's an urban, urban legend that's gone on for it was based on some actual group of from the one hundred first Airborne and all that never happened. However, the US Army has never used convicts for
military service. But right now, even as we speak, the Russians are doing that in the Ukraine. They are recruiting. Yeah, seriously, they are recruiting convicts to fight in the Ukraine. I discovered that and I put it in the book, and I think it's amazing. Leave it and the Nazi and the Nazis did it too during World War Two. So you know, when it comes to doing stuff like that, we might not be the best army in the world, but at least we don't do that and never
have. That is a sign that they're scraping the bottom of the barrel because they're running out of people, exactly right, that's the point. Dwayne Epstein is author of the book Killing Generals The Making of The Dirty Dozen. Let's talk about that title. I don't want to pick on it too much, but killing Generals, I mean, we're not about the book isn't about killing generals? Oh, I don't know. No, I'm kidding yea, yeah,
it's interesting. The editor and I were discussing what the titles should be, and at the same time we both came up with the exact same title. It's it's the last line in the film spoiler alert that Charles Bronson has after he gets visited in the hospital by the by the officers, including the general played by Ernest board Nine, and when they lead, Bronson goes, boy, oh boy. Killing generals can get to be a habit with me.
And I thought, if there's gonna be, you know, a title, a title to the book that resonates with readers, it's going to be that we're with Dwayne Epstein, who's the author of Killing Generals. The making of The Dirty Dozen? Was it difficult for Robert Aldrich to get that many, that much star power together and to direct them all um, Yes and
no, it really wasn't that difficult to get the cast together. That was done mostly by well in tandem, Robert Aldridge and tandem with the producer Ken Hyman, who by the way, is very much alive, and I interviewed him, and it wasn't so much that it was I mean, there were some people they tried to get for the film that passed for one reason or another. Jack Palance was originally going to play the Telesavadas part and he turned it down, which is an interesting story as to why he turned it down.
There was also Sidney Portier was approached, actor Nick Adams, Burt Lancaster, a bunch of other actors, but once they spettled on the cast, they all Ken Hyman said on the first day of rehearsal, he said, and he was there every day. He said, it was amazing to me how quickly they all jelled into the characters they were to play, and how
they got along as an ensemble. And he pointed out as well, he goes, you would never ever ever get a cast like this again, and coasts that they were so you know, their personas were different, their backgrounds were different. And I I interviewed a couple of cast members who said it was fun watching Telly Savalis and John Cassavetti's argue about where you can get the best grief food in New York. You know, things like that. It's
you know, I think I think it's really cool. I mean, the chemistry was amazing and it's there on the screen and in casting non actors um like Trinny Lopez and Jim Brown. Was he trying to Robert Aldrich. Was he trying to appeal to younger audiences? Oh? Absolutely, because you know there was a thing in movies in the fifties and sixties in order to help improve box office you put a young teen idol or young singer in the movie. Yeah, Frankie avalon Faby and Bobby Darren m And I guess it was
just Trinny Lopez's turn. Yeah. And as far as Jim as far as Jim Brown goes, excuse me, he was still playing with the NFL. This was his second film. Oh you had done a Western a couple of years before, and it was during during the making of the movie that he decided to quit the NFL. He was only twenty nine years old. And
it's an interesting story that's almost a full chapter in the book. That he held the press conference and during the filming of the movie in England, the whole movie was shot in England, and he said he's retiring from the NFL and he wouldn't be back for the sixty seventh season. And you know you can't buy publicity like that. I mean, no, really really helped put
the movie in the headlines at the time it was still in production. Come on out and see why Jim Brown is quitting the NFL exactly worked its movie worth ending his career. Dwayne Epstein, thank you for joining us Killing Generals. It's the book and the making of The Dirty Dozen, the most iconic World War Two movie of all time. I love this behind the scenes stuff and I thank you for bringing it to us. No, thank you so
much for having me. Thanks for listening to Later with Lee Matthews, the Lee Matthews Podcast, and remember to listen to The Drive Live weekday afternoons from five to seven. And I Heearts Media Presentation