"The Meaning of Mariah Carey": A Book Club Moment

happy occasion. Oh my god, Oh my god, it got all But that's actually okay, because this is such a I popped a little bottle of champagne everyone at home, and it just got all over me because we are celebrating today New York Times bestseller, the New York Times bestseller that is now my favorite book is. It's more than just a book to me. It's a piece of living history. It's a historical document the meaning of Mariah Carry. And today we're going to do the meeting of Mariah

Carry Book Club. I can't wait for this. I was looking forward to this all week. The only person I would finish a book for on a week like this, For two people, You and Maria go back like babies are passive fire fires. We have to talk about what a genius. First of all, can we just say a genius for wanting to include ODB in that track and directing the music video. This whole thing warrants its own conversation, So I think, what, let's let's get let's wait, let's wait.

I just wanted to ask you because I kind of threw this out there last week, um, and I wasn't sure if you'd want to do it, because I know that you don't have the most time because you guys are hashtag in season at SNL, and I know that you're not historically as big of Mariah fan or a lamb as I am. But I'm not and I wasn't in the Lamily. I feel like I have a profound understanding and appreciation and admiration for Mariah Carey. Now, I mean, it's truly I feel a little bit transformed. Should we

just get into it? What? What? What do you think? I would love to hear from you, what your broad impressions were. I want to hear everything that you experienced while reading the book. I want to know what you felt. I'm I'm. We have not spoken about it at all. I only saw your twit twit, your tweet earlier today saying that you loved it, so so please tell me everything. Well,

I like you. I saw your twit and you had said that you were an actual real tears finishing the book, and I was like, oh god, I bet she just really dazzles you with the ending, and boy did she got really fucking emotional because I, um just this was the week that I needed to hear all of that. I think I'm gonna say something crazy and truly I will allow people to like come from my head to when I say this. Especially the beginning, it read like

a modern day Tony Morrison book. It read like something so like to borrow phrase from Asia Ohara, like eht in sorrow? Do you know what I'm saying her name was? And now it's flashing flashing lights. Really, you see Michael Angela Davis's name on the cover and you're you're like, Okay, she's being area up front about having a ghostwriter. Good

for her. But like from the beginning you read that, you read this book and you're like, Okay, there's so much raw detail here, in specific detail here that it could only have come from her. And she's an artist and she's a writer. She's she she's good with words. It's like, I'm willing to say that she probably wrote a majority of this book and probably like and she's friends with miss Davis, and it's just like, okay, like

why don't you get this credit? But like so much of it can only could only have come from her, That's my thought. Yeah, I think it's always interesting whenever people want to have the conversation about how much of it was quote unquote actually written by the person at the center, because for me, it's like there's no doubt in my mind, being the life long and I mean life long fan that I am of Mariah, that this

sounds like her is completely in her voice. And the thing about her is the fans know that she really does right all of her music, and so are the vast, vast majority of music and lyrically, this sounds like her, you know what I mean, Like in terms of the prose of it all. You know, maybe it wasn't all totally authentically coming from only her, but this is her voice, you know what I mean? Like this and this this book impressed me so much because it got across um.

It was such a beautiful writing, but yet it also did sound like her the whole way through. For me, reading this was very it actually was very emotional for me, of course, of course, and I was thinking of you the whole time, and before you keep going, I'm sorry, I just I think it's worth pointing out that you and I are as old as her career and not as old. But it's like she's it's it's it's MC thirty,

Like we're thirty years old. It's like like Vision of Love came out when we were the year we were born. Like I feel like that has some I don't know, like coincidental meaning, but it's like that's that's important. I think. Yeah.

To me, like weirdly, numerically, Mariah always seems to line up with me, like and I'll say I said it on the podcast last week, but I will say definitively, I have so gone back and forth on this question over the years doing this podcast and when we pose this question to other guests, it's always in the back

of my mind. But for me, the culture that made me say culture was for me is and was Maria And so this was really like extremely up and down experience for me to read this because she really has, like her music really has been there for me, like

through my entire life. And I mean I could get into specifics as we as we go through it, but you know, hearing that she struggled as much as she did, and she came from the place that she came from, and it was you know, her passion and talent and love for what she was doing that was really the only thing that saved her and got her to where she is, which is one of the greatest of all time. Um.

It was just extremely inspiring. And while I was so devastated for her in the in the dark parts of this book, I obviously recommended to everyone because this is a book not only about like triumph over struggle, it's it's so reveals and explores so many themes in her life that are so specific to her and yet can feel so universal, while also being a total celebration of

her music end of music in general. That any music fan would love this book, and anyone with an understanding, which is with an even a vague understanding of who Maria carry is I think would be enriched in reading it because it's like truly like a human triumph. I can't say enough about what this book means to me and what she means to me, and what her all

of her music means to me and always has. I love that, And I will say as someone who is only really getting the media packaged version of her narrative from the sidelines, just being like, okay, she got married to that sony guy. My sort of downloading of Maria Carrey has only been secondhand, and that I did not put in the work myself to be like, okay, what is what is she about? Like what is informing this behavior?

Because some of the behavior is like fun and silly and juicy and like, oh my god, isn't she being such a diva? But like all of it, and I mean all of it makes sense to me now, all of it down to down to the I don't know her of it all like that fully tracks in my in my sort of thinking now, and it's like, oh, yes, of course this is how you would sort of approach this.

And of course you were traumatized by the way that your career was sabotaged at the hands of your ex husband, who then went behind your back and then like gave swiped you twice in order to give this other artist, like you know, like a moment, a thing whatever. And I'm just like, Okay, this all makes sense to me now, and even if, like even if anyone out there I haven't really read this. I feel like it is pretty

universally being acclaimed, this book. But even for someone who's just like, well, it's probably a really strategic sort of pr thing and blah blah blah. But I'm like, no, like this is something. This is like a fully conto word illustration of her life. I think, Oh, it's passionately written and written with care and detail and research into her own family history. I mean, this is this is a labor of love. You can tell. And I will say she has I listened to the audio book, so

did you. She hasn't yet again changed the game in a in a new medium, because the audio books are not going to be the same now after this because a jester again, And I also say Jess because she's so funny and I love when she cracks herself up, and there's just moments in the book where she starts singing.

There's a particular refrain that is like really important to Lambs, which is the opening of closed my eyes, which is and like when when that jumped out in that moment where she's in the bath, not out when that jumped out, and then when where she's in the bath after her concert, the first concert she had where she she was taping a special and she realized she had a lot of fans.

Shemus right, And she gets home and gets in the bath for her relaxing moment, and that just sort of comes to her the way the tears sprung to my eyes because because I associate that obviously with the Butterfly album, and I have said it many times on this podcast that the Butterfly album is my favorite album of all time because I associated with the point in my childhood where it was the first time I ever truly really connected to lyrics. Because I'll just I'll just say this

flat out right now. So when I was seven eight years old is when the music of Butterfly started coming out. That was when Honey came out as a single that and then it was followed by My All and the whole Butterfly album that I just sat and drenched myself in. It was the first time I felt like an artist that I was listening to purposely was like really meaning what they were saying, and lyrically and musically they were alive in what they were doing. And then I went

back and listened to everything she had ever done. My dad was actually a fan of hers, and we had the music box CD just in the house, so um, I ended up listening to that and from there on, like, I think it was around that time that I started realizing that I was different. I didn't I don't think I had the words for day. I don't think I

had the words for queer or whatever. But the themes that she explores throughout Butterfly of liberating yourself and um, you know, not for nothing, but discovering your sexuality, because that was very much what was happening on that album. She talks a lot about yes exactly once and during the divorce, and as she exited the divorce, that was when there was a real commitment to hip hop in her music and a real sort of embracing of real

sensuality in her lyrics. Whereas she discusses a lot how her early pop songs were like dream Lover and fantasy adult contemporary, and I'm talking lyrically the object of her songs being fake people, whereas people that she wasn't writing

towards she was, they were just abstractions. Yeah, yes, and so deep in that music that I just felt it in my bones, Like I remember, I felt the song of the Roof in my bones, I was I had no concept of what it felt like to be stifled and then be able to like have a sexual moment with someone or a romantic moment with someone on a roof falls but with DJ and I just want to say, like, y'all, this is actually the other night Patrick and Joel were over at the house and I made them listen to

the Roof because it's beautiful, beautiful, such a genius song, you guys, And like, I made a playlist, and I actually made a beginner's playlist of Mariah for those who aren't really lambs who want to entry point, and I made a more intermediate playlist for those that kind of want to delve into her more deep cut stuff. And the Roof is the first track on my other on

my second playlist. But this is down to even the rain hitting her skin and like the physicalization of that when you really match that up with what she's going through, which is a deep discovery of her own sexuality and sensuality, which as we know, is such a huge part of

Mariah Carey. That was such a moment and I will never forget discovering that with the door closed when I was eight years old, just like you know whatever, but um, it means something so much to me, Like the song my All means so much to me, The song Butterfly I means so much to me. Like so to have her delve into the creation of that album in such rich detail was a dream for me, Like it was.

It was euphoric for me, like to have her, to have her explain just how these lyrics came to her and those feelings and those emotions, and she so vividly portrayed that night with dark Jeter. She devotes the whole chapter in the book to that night. Yes, and so and then and then that was sort of the source material of the song. And this this, I mean, I love hearing you talk about this and hearing you talk about the door being closed. Are you saying that you

touched yourself to that song? No, that was a couple of years before I started jacking off. In fact, the first time I ever jacked off. Do you want to know what song was playing? Was it Honey, a song about Come? No, it was another song that had come in it. It was come, Come Come. It was Butterfly by crazy Town, crazy Town, and which that was a

hot music video that that that music video was hot. Yeah, but I was like, that's when I actually discovered myself, like a couple of years later, and I didn't even know I was like gay yet. It was just like whatever. But what I guess when I'm saying about them the Butterfly album, it was the first time I ever like let myself seep into something that felt like a little

bit more adult than I was used to. And I felt like there is like a weird thing where I associate her self discovery and that album with my own beginning of self identification as being different and like, you know, not for nothing, but at the same time, like this is probably something I haven't really talked about on the podcast to really, I don't ever talk about too much.

But when I was very young, like I don't know how it was for you moving around so much and you know, not speaking the language and you know, obviously visually appearing to being a different race than the other kids, Like I was, became so aware of my like an abstract sense. I was aware of my queerness, just knew I was different, and I developed like a real social

anxiety like I did. It was very hard for me to make new friends, like I was not good at making new friends, and her music was such a comfort to me at that time. Like I remember like I was having like a panic what I can now realize was panic attacks, like when the bus would around the corner to pick me up, Like a couple of times I threw up at my bus stop because I was so afraid of not being able to sit with someone.

Or like a couple of times when I the buses like raised and I would sort of I thought it would be cool to like get up on the bus bass and would fall and like just like really stupid ship. But like you were just choreographing. You just had such anxiety around I had such anxiety around everything, around every social interaction. And so her music at that time was like such a big part of my life that like

I associated with comfort in that way. And I'll always feel like safe and warm when I'm listening to that album, and even like the Honey Imagery, like the warmth of that song and like the way it feels like I'll just and there's so much about you know, being a kid that doesn't fit in And because this is really when she starts to tackle her own um childhood in a way like maybe I grew up a little too soon, as the lyric and the um and close my eyes

and she dripped herself as a wayward child and stuff like that, like obviously I can't compare what I was going through in my childhood to the horrors that she experienced, which now you know why she identified with the scripts like preshious. But it's I just it's a is going to be so important to me always. I mean that album was her sort of opening the little little bit I know. It's like she makes the whole point of

not just abandoning numerals, not really tracking her age. She doesn't mention her her age once she like like, well she she mentioned she mentioned her age, and like these important developmental moments, but she's not like I'm fifty now or you know, like she she she doesn't speak in

those terms. But it's like from the moment she you know, moved like in Earnest was working in music, I was trying to make it to that's connected the show where she's like, oh my god, I'm famous what and then that's like a benchmark, but it was still but then even even from that point to her divorcing from Tommy Matola.

It's like there is this there. She was sort of being held in some like panopticon, or she was being held captive in some way up through her family or through her husband, or through her labels, UM, her label I should say, through Sony specifically UM and then virgin. But it's like, honey, you could see, you could tell is like the sort of first crack in the like emancipation that would come later, you know, right, you know even in the music video, like she talks she discussion escapes. Yeah,

she's um doing this James Bond sort of thing. She's h and M and um. So she is, uh, she escapes from this mansion that she's being held in and sheds the little black dress that she always had to wear. And you know she sort of in that moment like literally sheds that skin in the pool when she jumps into it and becomes Mariah Carey like that she would

be forever, you know what I mean. And also at that time, it was so interesting because another thing I've been doing is I've been watching a lot of media that she has done throughout the years, and I remember there was two things I heard about Mariah Carry in the very beginning when because I was like a big Selein Beyond fan, like it was just because the Titanic thing was she was everywhere as you know, especially from where from like your perspective, like the French, French Canadian

ness of it all. Um. But she was huge obviously, and I was like, I've always been like a protective stam like even back then, like my mom was like of Selena of anybody like like but yes, but my mother said to me at the time, she was like, you know, if you like Selean Beyond so much, you might like Mariah Carry. Mariah Carry is one of my favorites. And I was like, who is that? And she was like, well,

she's an amazing singer. And I remember my mother said to me at the time she does she does dress a little, you know, but but but she that was like that was like you know what I mean, Like that was like the narrative around her was like all of a sudden, she was dressing like quote unquote like slutty um. And she was she she was like stily

clad all the time. Yeah, But I think it was just because, as she details in the book, like through the first like six seven years of her career, she was maybe allowed to show a little bit of cleavage in a little bit of like naval and that was it. And this is someone who is deeply in her bones a sexual, sensual person and was never allowed to be that to the point where it was physically manifesting in herself.

How uncomfortable she was all the time. I mean that passage where she's with her acting coach, that was crazy. But I remember those were the things I had heard about her were like, you know, she is uh, a little bit you know, on the edgy side in terms of how she dresses, and she's got an amazing voice. And then I got into her and I just connected with her. But this is but your mom was saying

this before. That was the reputation before Butterfly. Even this was when Honey, when Honey had come out, and then like a Butterfly was happening, That's when that's when I first like became conscious of who she really was. And um, then it was like all broke open from me and there was no one who stood who stood anywhere near her in terms of my own devotion at that's shore. And by the time Rainbow came in, it was like, Oh wow, like she's fully leaning into this like sex

pot Like there's just a oh God. There's a song that still holds up um in like any sort of makeout or sex playlist um off of Rainbow that I that I still use, which is Bliss, which is like six minutes long, and it's just her going, yeah, that's all the song is, and it's so good and it's still it's just timeless. It's timeless. She this is the thing, and she always talks she talks about Marrilyn Monroe being

this inspiration for her. But the reason why, I think and what sort of drives her and motivates her subconsciously in her art is she wants to create things that are timeless, timeless. Yes, she's driven by that in every sense. And like, I feel like I think this book itself is timeless. I think I think it's sort of reshaping the celebrity memoir in a certain way. I mean, I mean it certainly raises a bar. It raises the bar for that for her ilk do you know what I'm saying.

It's definitely it's like you know, if if let's say Selene were to write a book like it would have to be so it would have to get so fucking real about the fact that Renee and Julielle came onto her when she was fourteen years old. You know what I'm saying. It's like, yeah, and I guess that's the thing too, is it's like, I question whether or not

Selene would or could get that right. And for me, that's that's what connects me to Mariah Carey is there's a deep honesty to her that has really always been there if you look at her lyrics, and because she has been telling a story for years, and she's even said a lot of this stuff before, but she's able to spell it out in such explicit detail here that you're right, does raise the bar for stuff like this

because it's so beautifully bloored. But you know, and you've you've you've talked about this like sort of like whatever off off the air, off off the record, off the pod. But you're just like, oh no, she's like she's changed in the last two years since um, and she's been

writing this book for two or three years. UM. But because I was going to bring up the fact that four or five years ago, the Mariah Carey of the mid Offs or no know, the mid teens, whatever you wanna call them, was still pretty kg about stuff in general. Was was very like reactionary to things that would happen to her in the media, was very not in control of the narrative, still sort of at the mercy of like the publicist industrial complex, like the publicity industrial comm

whatever you wanna call it. Something has happened maybe since she like came out with that whole like I'm bipolar thing, not to not to reduce it, but like she's since she came out as bipolar I'm a few years ago. Since that, there's there's been some shift where she is being i think, very radically transparent about I think she might be genuinely happy. I think that she's very happy

with Tanaka. I'm not exactly sure what the nature of their relationship is now, even after reading the book, she just kind of describes him as a beautiful person in her life. And I'm so happy that she has that and that that was not just some weird thing that was a stunt thing for the docuseries slash reality show that it became the Mariah's World moment when she was That's why I'm talking about She's being badly managed by

by ms Stella. So she's she's she's the definition of and I don't think so, honey, a villain in her life. And I'm so happy that she's gone, but I think that that might have something to do with it. Also, the fact of the matter is, you know, Mariah is very honest in this book. She's not perfect, and how

could you be. She's been through so fucking much. And she's also and she discussed is this a lot in the book, a real victim of that paparazzi culture, and she really and and the fact that she was able to survive that glitter moment when the entire world did did want to see her tear torn down because she was there was no one bigger and how juicy is it for someone to fail so spectacularly? And that was at that time when there was no awareness about like

what bullying was in that kind of context. It was just like, ha, ha, look at her, looks stupid. Now is our chance, um that we're all guilty of participating in? But I think that's someone that's been through something like that doesn't just automatically know how to respond in this way. And what I really liked. The passage in this book that I really liked was when she discusses seeing princess die at an event. I was gonna bring that up.

And they have that moment of looking each other in the eyes and they really saw each other, They kind of saw they were both victims of this thing that was paparazzi and me ea and this this narrative of um,

the bigger they are, the harder they must fall. UM. And I think there was a real recognition there, and she says, you know, she wishes that Princess Diana had lived to get an Instagram or a Twitter, or to be able to have her own voice and to watch what I thought was a really beautiful way of saying it, the people become the press, you know what I mean, Like she maybe would have stood more of a chance if she would have seen that there was an end date.

There was an expiration on that culture that even Mariah says killed her and and would have killed Mariah had she not, um, you know, had had gotten lucky to be honest. Sure, I mean I did get a chill when I um when I read that part where she was like social media for you know, for all its false or whatever has at least rendered tabloids completely meaningless.

There's no power in them anymore. And and of course, like we've always known them to be ridiculous and terrible, but it's like, oh no, they but there is no like when are you ever going to pick up um sweekly anymore? Exactly? That's this done. It's like who fucking cares? And they're all toxic, horrible, septic tank fucking rags anyway.

But um, but I mean I did I understand what she's saying about the Diana the Diana thing, um, and I do believe her when she felt a moment of connection and it's like, what a profound moment, and like absolutely, like please say that you have something in common saying it because you're one of the only people who like at that time could maybe make that claim. But the way the way the way she worded it, which was

I wish Princess Diana had lived long enough to get funny. Yeah, I mean it was kind of funny, like to say to have an Instagram or Instagram. I think I think that she probably read that back and was like, I'm gonna run a risk of people saying me for the sentence. But but I genuinely no, I genuinely believe that it's

it's a funny line. But I do think she believes it because I think that ultimately, like she just wishes that someone like that could have had a voice of her own, of course, but let's just kind of I don't know, for context, I guess if it if it matters like that's still happening with Megan Markle, still happening in some way where she's being fucking destroyed by the British tablet media. Yeah, well they're so vicious. I mean,

they're terrible. If if you think that they're bad in America or have been bad in America, they are out for blood in the UK. I mean it is it is relentless, and they are not happy until someone like really crashes and burns. And it's really really fucking dark, and it's also incredibly racist. So um, that is also at the heart of so many of the attacks that

she has faced over the years. Mariah Carey and I also thought, I'm so curious to hear what you thought of, you know, just how huge apart her biracial nous played in everything, Like just hearing about how she didn't feel like she belonged with literally anyone throughout her childhood. I believe it. I believe it, and I honestly in the sense strange maybe, but looking at the photos that are in the end, that are in the book if you buy the hard copy, I look at this photos and

I'm like, that's a sad kid. Do you know what I'm saying, Yes, that's a sad fucking kid. And I know that sounds like scared kid. It's a scared kid.

And I believe I. I believe it when and even when she was a teenager, because because you think, if you if you want to go backwards and try to entrapolate and think of Mariah Carry as she was before she was famous, and you you you're also you're picturing maybe some model of like the glamorous version of Maria Carry that we all know now, because if you even see these photos of her as a teen and she's still like she still seems like a little in her

shell and a little sheltered and just like and she went to beauty school and then she kind of like had fun with her look, but it's still like she was she was holding these terrible heavy things in her with coming from a broken family, just being by Rachiel, having these siblings who were, um, you know, sort of broken in their ways. It was just really heavy, just

really heavy. And and of course, and and the moment that a lot of people have talked about, especially interviews with her over this um book releases, UM, you know that moment when she goes to sleepover in the Hampton's and these girls lock her in the room and just chant the end word at her. She basically thought she was going to hang out with friends. She thought she maybe finally was going to fit in with this group of white girls that she went to school with. And Um,

they didn't. They weren't explicitly privy to the fact that she her father was black, because Maria, I wi should just say she has a black father, she hasn't Irish mother, um, which presents a lot of very interesting and sort of tragic consequences later, um, when Mariah's mother weaponizes her privilege

against her family and many many very crazy ways. UM. But I think there was something goes on where, um, the girls that she's hanging out with find out that she's part black, and they essentially bum rush her, like by hounding her like a corner and her in a closet and screaming like the N word, and her traumatizing her for years, and she says she blocked it out until she was writing the book. Yeah, yeah, and this is I was watching the beginnings of her UM the

Oprah Conversation on Apple TV plus Fabulous Interview. I haven't finished it, but Oprah, Star of Deer, We Love Dear, Star of Dear Oprah, Oprah and UM Like, I think like one of the first things they talk about is how Mariah Well Oprah is like, you know, you talk, you kind of like air out a lot of the conflicts you've had in your life. And then Maria goes, well, I feel like I'm just writing two things where the where someone else drew first blood. And I'm like, yes,

that is actually completely correct. And I don't think it's one of those things where it's like, oh, she's framing it like she's being revision revisionist in whatever way to make it seem like she's been victimized her whole life now. But it's this thing where her family was exploiting her, the industry was exploiting her, I mean, the press, whatever.

But it's like but then but down to like these like core things where she was she was experiencing racism, poverty, you know, divorce in all of these like different dynamics. I don't know, that's just that that that just has to be considered anytime you think about Maria carry I

think that, Yeah. And you know another thing that's in the book and couldn't possibly have been planned for this moment, but couldn't feel more oppression in this moment is her families unfortunately repeated experiences is where police would come to their host house because her black father would get into physical altercations with her darker skin but still bi racial brother.

And she says in the book that the calling of the police, which often was her mother um doing that would almost always heighten the violence and almost always aggravate the situation because another reason reason I sort of I feel like I understand her on a deeper level too, is she is from Long Island. And I can tell you Long Island is extremely segregated. And I can't express this enough, Like people that live there don't really understand that that's what it is because they think the word

segregation and they think people people. The people that live there don't understand what you're saying. I don't think they do. I don't think a lot of people that live there and haven't left, I don't think they would use the words segregated to explain how Long Island is made up.

I really don't. But that's exactly what it is. Is. I mean, like, wealthier people live in some areas and they're white, and like, then there are the quote unquote bad areas of of Long Island, and this is the way it's said to you as a white kid, and those are the oftentimes it's the inner part of the island. It's the like parts that are not by the water, and those are the places where it's mostly black people

or people of color. And I don't think that people really understand that live there, just how much there of racial division that there is. And so in reading this, I was thinking to myself, like Jesus, like what that must have been like to live in a predominantly, extremely predominantly white place and be the one like mixed race family.

It's just and then the police get called and you've got violent people in the house, and the one police officer, she says, said to the other one, it'll be a miracle if this kid survives, and it kind of is it'll be a miracle if this kid makes it. I think I remember thinking like, oh, like, that's such an interesting like way of that's such a whatever like linguistic I don't know if you wanna call it that thing where it's like, oh, she makes that, she survives, she

makes it, she like succeeds as an artist. I think that this this actually this was the moment where her brother pushes her mother as hard mother and the wall and her mother just laid there in a slump and there had been a loud crack, and he leaves the house, and she gets on the phone and calls a family friend, and she describes it as being in a sort of paralysis and she just mustered enough emotional energy to call

the police. And this is just like this is where I say, like, you know, of course she was gravitated to a script like Precious and was so good in a film like that, because I don't think anyone really understood the specifics of what her life was. No, like I the witnessing of extreme violence like that in your own family and your own home, the lack of a safe space, anywhere has to damage you on a level

that is unimaginable. Um. Yeah, I mean I grew up with a lot of fights amongst my parents and that they got violent, physical, and I mean that's that still stays. And it was nothing, it was nothing quite like what she experienced. Um, but it's still something that like it just it just like exceeds your own body and physical space in the way that like the scar tissue is just there. I cannot imagine. It's true, it etches into you, and for that to be repeated has to be like

I mean, yeah, I I have the passage pulled up. Um. One of the cops looking down at me, but speaking to another cop asides and said, if this kid makes it, it'll be a miracle. And that night I became less of a kid and more of a miracle. Wow. I mean mean, yeah, if this kid makes it. I was just like, that's so interesting. But well, because the thing is, like, you can't talk about this book without talking about where

she came from. And I was saying, like how on Long Islands we were talking about her biracial identity, and like how that can have been a comfortable place to be like in the early seventies on Long Island. We're being a We're being a biracial kid probably was so so such an anomaly, rare as fuck. Also, her mother being the song on Island for for wanting to be with a black man, like all of that, all this sort of shame that was hoisted upon probably every member

of the family. Also, you know, Mariah being the closest child of the three to quote unquote passing as they say, the resentment that came from her toxic older siblings, and then you know, the brothers just a piece of fucking ship. And he ended up becoming a manipulative, toxic person who I couldn't believe was in her life for a song, as was the sister Allison. That is a whole fucking

can of worms. That's tough. That's tough because she I mean, everyone in this story is sympathetic to some level, even even if there as despicable as Pat Allison and Morrigan. I feel like I feel like I'm sympathetic towards Allison. I feel like I'm sympathetic towards Morrigan. I feel like I'm sympathetic towards Maria's mother. I feel like these are these are like it's like I said, like there's some Morrison s quality, or there's just some tragic race trauma

in all of this in her family. His I don't. I don't know. I mean, it's not as like sort of grandiose maybe in the way that Tony Morrison novels are and sort of sweeping and sort of biblical seeming almost. But it's like, but she she does have Maria does Pepper and scripture throughout the memoir does. Yeah, there's just something I don't feel like all of it is just so cinematic though, like, oh, it's gonna I I would

see this becoming a mini series. Oh at some point absolutely, or maybe even like a television series to be honest with you, like, because there's so much in here, I don't think it could be just a movie. But um but um, I mean yes, I would agree. I Mean the thing is, they were all they were all living

in that house. They were all having different experiences with that pain and that trauma, and they were all living identities or they all had identities that were outside the norm of the time, and not one of them had a safe space or a connection or someone to talk to or someone to understand them because there's so much difference in the five of them living in that family,

there was no attempt to understand each other. Really, I think that unfortunately obviously, like the what goes unspoken in the book, and Mariah is upfront about not being able to speak for it, but is whatever happened to Allison when she went away with the first guy that she married.

Um she comes back and is a completely different person, and that's when she starts exposing Maria to her friends that are drug dealers, exposing Maria to drugs, giving Mariah drugs, I mean, she gives her a valium at one point and she passes out at twelve years old and sinks

into a couch. She tries to give her cocaine. She leaves her with someone that tries to coerce her into sex work, yes, and she she Maria as a young girl, is alone in a car with a much older man who kiss who tries to molest her, does molest her, and a man sees it. And at that point she is like aware of the fact that this was not normal, you know, but like true tragedy, like the stuff that she's going through in the beginning of this book, and you know, only with years of hindsight can you even

begin to understand and unearthed that stuff. And you know, I'm I'm I'm happy for her that she's been able to do that, but Jesus Christ, it must have been hard to relive and write this. I mean, maybe like through this process she's really kind of like solidified her

core or something. Because I because it's funny that she mentions in the book that Caution is her most critically acclaimed album, and I kind of am like, oh, yeah, that is interesting, and like we like the general consensus around Caution was that it was like one of like a real one of the best albums, but a solid

Mariah Carey album. And even though it didn't have like exactly these these big like moments that these big sort of like you know, promotional moments on it, it was such a competent body of work just contained little like ten songs, ten songs just like her having fun with R and B, with hip hop, her collaborating with like Blood Orange or Deaf Hines and scrill X and like all these artists. Um, there's just there's just a competence.

There's a serenity to her now and I think you're right, like she with what you were saying earlier, and she closes the book on her being happy. It's like she is at peace now, and I and that like that that's what gets me emotional, and that's what me emotional when I finish this. But even as someone who like I mean, Mariah has been a soundtrack to my life in the way that she's been the soundtrack to everyone's lives in Western culture. But I'm just like, oh, thank god,

she's happy, you know. Well, That's That's something that I love about her now in the past ten years, is she is so funny in her music now, like GTFO being the first song on Caution, like in her kind of putting that out there is like a weird like faux first single and being like, yeah, why not, Like it's like really a funny song, and she's she's so

funny in the song Obsessed from Memoirs. So funny she's she ever since Emancipation on you can tell like that Emancipation also involved like her finally being like I don't have to just write like longing songs, sad songs about whatever. She is so funny in a music video, right and dexterous like she and like obsessed. I love that the chorus is so long, like she can't stop going in on eminem on that song, like it's she was doing dag. She was doing very good Dragon of music videos Eminem.

She also has a great reaction when the bus hits eminem. It's all it's all that that that music, that song is all mean girls. Oh it's the best. It's so funny. I love that she's just like that's the thing too, is like and when you were saying before about like stuff we've said on this podcast about like whatever sort of uh, speculating about what her actual personal life is, like like what's the deal going on with that billionaire she was marrying, Like what the funk happened on New

Year's Eve? ETCETERA part of loving Mariah is having the sense of humor that you think she would have. So it's like you're not ever really laughing at her, but it's laughing with her because that's what sort of you know,

gets her through stuff like this. And so I never feel bad about like, quote unquote having fun at the expense of things that happened to her, like because you have to be able to laugh and joke about it because ultimately, like Glitter was one of the toughest times of her life and that was so depressing for fans of hers that were hardcore fans of hers to watch happen. And now it's like we can truly laugh about it now because the lammley has so reclaimed that album. It's

now on Spotify. It did go to number one on the charts, like a couple of years ago when they said justice for Glitter, like now we get to hear specifically about like the way that went down. It's just such an easy story to understand, Like something that a project that starts with substance, it gets noted to death by people who don't care about the project, will only care about making money, people who want her to funk up.

Tommy Motola, I'm talking to you, like screwing up that project that maybe could have actually been good and isn't necessarily bad. It's not necessarily bad. I I just love that she has the full hindsight, closure whatever on Glitter, especially when she writes about it in this book where she was like and look and the fact now this is what I'm obsessed with, the fact that she still

stands by the songs on the soundtrack. It's it's a great album, but she's like the rest of the world is not gonna win by like making fun of this movie and blah blah blah ha ha isn' it's such a train wreck this. I stand by the work. And the work for me was acting, which I'm very passionate about, and I like meticulously worked on to improve that. And I stand by the songwriting, which you know, almost twenty

years later. What, however, many years later, was finally like finally achieved some recognition because of my fans coming together

and and like and and achieving a common goal. And I think she makes the case throughout the entire book for some like class consciousness socialist ideal where the middle manager Fox, the capitalist class Fox, who are like the agents that Tommy Mttol's the world the record label exects who are like trying to like make money without lifting a fucking finger off of her are like trash and she's actually out there like being the laborer and do and actually like the way we talk about class conscious

is like an airline pilot who makes like you know, a year, is more likely to support the unionizing efforts of like a working class person who makes forty because that airline pilot is also technically in the working class because he's he answers to some middle management, to some to some capitalist overlord who's just like, you do this, but I don't have to work. But you're the one

who's doing the actual legwork. Mariah is like throughout the entire book, focusing on the work, laboring, laboring and finding fulfillment out of it, enjoy and also speaking to this collectivist thing where amazing things can happen if people just come together. The reason why all of them for Christmas, all I went for Christmas is you went to number one on the Billboard chart is because my fans came together and did that. It wasn't some promotional thing, it

wasn't some like choreographed media thing. It was because a bunch of people were like, lamb did it again, she says again. And that's the thing too, is like um, when it comes to glitter and everything, like it really has stood the test of time because her fans are always going to watch a glitter like I'm always gonna watch like and the fact of the matter is like it sort of disappeared from the public consciousness. I don't

know why. Obviously it was a huge flop, but I love when she says in the book like it wasn't that bad, and she's right, And also I thought it was so interesting. And here you go that she really wanted Terence Howard to be the lead in it, and they were like, no, we don't see how that would work, which is basically them saying like, we don't want a black lead. We don't want you up against up there with a black man like to be the romantic interest.

And then she also says, by the way I envisioned him in this role before, yes, like she was so ahead of and she is, I believe, like so ahead of the curve. And it's always always like people being like, I don't know what are you talking about? This is this is this is a good segue into the O, D B of it all. So this is I think one of one of her best talents. She's obviously an incredible singer, she's an amazing composer, she's an amazing lyricist.

Something that is a talent is understanding the pulse of pop culture better than anyone else. She said in the early nineties. By the way, anyone who will listen, the way that mainstream music is going, hip hop is going to be huge, I'm telling you, she says. She said at the time Vatola, he dismissed her. What are you talking about? He didn't understand it, so it couldn't possibly be true. He liked standards, he liked the ballance that

she was doing. He understood that type of thing. Then she talks about being at that dinner with a bunch of their associates, and he asked her, what do you think of puff Daddy of Bad Boy Records, of this new movement that was p Diddy at the time, he was just kind of emerging as the superproducer. And she's very honest understanding that. In saying her honest opinion, she's sort of defying her husband, who's this extremely powerful man who's gonna who runs her career and her life at home.

And she says, this is definitely the way that mainstream music is going, and what he's doing is very exciting and we should all be paying attention to it. Tany Motola gets up, makes a huge public scene at the restaurant, and thanks canceled. Thanksgiving is canceled. I just want to say Thanksgiving is canceled, which is so funny and stupid. But this is what I'm saying is it's like it stayed this way throughout the career and remains to this day.

She still understands even as a fifty year old woman. Sorry to age her because she she's eternally twelve, but she still is making contemporary music that works. Caution, caution, excuse me. I just by the way, we cut out the part where I was choking on wine earlier. Guys, Really it was it was a whole moment if I won't get into it, but it just came back up and then it got caught. It went down the wrong pipe, you know. Relatable queen. Relatable queen we're talking about. We

shouldn't cut it out because I'll tell you something. It's very well know. I'm being honest about it. And now I get to control the narrative. I don't want people to hear me fucking coughing up this orange wine. Honey. Okay, the first part of it can be cut. The second part I like, and I like it. I like it. But then, um, but what you were saying about the O D b of it all. That was one of

my favorite chapters, one of my favorite chapters. And so like such a I love that she like blew up Tommy's spot with like once she got the O D B verse, she's flipping out. She's so excited, so excited and like one of the most like V definitive iconic like like rap verse featured raps on like that kind you know whatever. So and for it to be Mariah carry and O D B that no one would have ever thought that until that moment. But she was like she was like, I I love Wu Tang, Like, let's

do it. But but for Tommy Mattold to be like I could, What the funk is this? I can do this. It's like you're a fucking idiot and you can, like you can swim in your stupid sea of Like no, no, they can't take that away from me, not to like shoot on standards, but it's like who cares? Who cares? And like and then and then for her, oh we gotta obsessed with her talking about at the time that Tupac said hi to her at the Grammys and the time that Biggie was Biggie was about to come in

for the Honey remix. So she she she she got she was she she got admiration from both pasts. What a fucking I there you go. She And also you know, just like that. I loved the writing of the part where she finally hears the and in the audiobook, it's great because you actually can hear od be on it and you really understand, like I think someone someone who grew up with that song, like just that's one of those things you just kind of assumed was always there.

No me and Mariah go back, like maybe it was a passing that that whole thing, even though New York in the house, etcetera, like all that like that is so and just that whole fantasy remix that is a moment in contemporary musical time, like truly stars aligning to make a classic. And she had to be flipping out as someone who wanted that's so badly to her thing and then you hear that think about being there and then unfortunately she didn't have a fucking husband and musical

partner who could appreciate that. That's when she had to know it was over totally. I mean, I love in the book she's like, it's so random that ODB just went, um, I'm a little bit country and then maybe like baby maybe it's just so and it just leads so perfectly

right into the Mariah vocal. It's like, what a perfect what a visionary to like try us that that would work to be to push for that and be like no, I'm picking O d B. And I'm and it's gonna be like us at like you know, the Carnival or whatever, like the music videos like them at the Carnival. Yeah, yeah,

they're right, Playland, Yes, that's right there, theme Park. And so I just admired that vision, maybe not above all else in her artistry, but it's like it's such an important element to like Mariah Carey the artists that it's just like, oh, like that's that's priceless, like that that comes along like once in a generation maybe I don't know.

And she'd replicate it so many times. I mean, like that's another thing about when you look with Kanye and with like with Kanye, with jay Z and Heartbreaker, with all these things you know, like etcetera, etcetera. She's just done it so many times. Like and also one of my favorite songs on Caution is the Distance, which she has ty Dolla sign on, and like that song is

fucking great and I would recommend that people revisit. And also, um, I mean literally another part about this whole last week and a half, as I've been reading this and listening to the audiobook, it's only been Maria music for me, and it's been so nice because I love it so much, because it is timeless and even her more recent albums that do have the more um more like sort of frivolous quote unquote content, like you know what I mean, Like she's being funny, she's not. It's not super taking

itself super seriously. It's still when you listen to it is like top Deer. It really is like even like me, I am Maria the Elusive shantus like it's got a goofy fucking title, very good off that track. I mean, yeah, there there's like so much good stuff on there. And I think that it was named something so crazy that people sort of wrote it off and maybe it doesn't need another name if I'm too criticized, but but um, but really it's so good that's underrated equals MC square.

It is fucking great. And emancipation of Mimi Emancipation of MEMI like that is. It's one of the best albums ever. Every song is class, every song was classic. I love I Gassed when she was like kind of like going through all the tracks. But then she goes, your Girl should have been a single, and I was like, yes, yes, yes, because I thought this for years and I had just like I listened to Emancipation the other week and you and I connectually. We were like, oh my god, literally,

sister life hashtag hashtag sister life. I was listening to your Girl. I put it on my stories and you're like, literally, sister, I forgot how good that song is. Your Girl is not a joke. And then she she does say she's so good, and then like she says, like people don't really know how much I love that song. I should have been a single. One I did. I almost crashed my car when I was driving. I was like, yes, but but the thing is about that album is that

album was made of hits like stay the Night. That song was epic, say something I actually think was released as a single, but like a later one, it didn't really hit. But so much stuff on that album, and then obviously all the hit she did have and she of course did the rerelease with Don't Forget About It, which is so good just that album is, and that album also means a ton to me because that album came out of two thousand five, and I remember that that was like yeah, so basically I think it was

freshman freshman year. The summer of freshman year. I was listening to it a lot because I was at a cross country camp and like I said, it was hard for me to make new friends because I was so anxious, and I just would put my walkman on on the buses to like, uh practices and stuff like that, and I would just listen to Emancipation the whole way through, like shake it Off was slapping so hard at that time, Oh my god, just like so good and so fun.

It's like that, like I feel like it's like an up tempo sort of like club moment, but it really is the like, um, the melody of it is so creative, we blown together. I mean, it's such a classic. I think that is track for track my favorite album album. It's so good. It's so good. But also this sounds weird, but Caution has a very special place in my heart.

Like so good as an album that works that just I don't know, and I this sounds weird, but like as an album that is such a clean, confident like way of like lifting Mariah from two or yeah, lifting Maria from two five and then like dropping her and it's sort of still retaining that DNA. I'm just like, Oh, that's like really fucking impressive that you still made this work like whatever, like thirteen years later. You know, it's like, oh, you're this is timeless. This is timeless. This is like

what I'm getting at. It's like, this is this is a timeless, all time great artist, all timer The fact that that album was so roundly ignored by the Grammys, like caution, yeah, You're right, it's so pathetic. It's so pathetic. And the fact that she's only one five go I'm sorry, go back and listen to you're gonna give out Pop Vocal Grammys and you're gonna and Fantasy is not rewarded. You're gonna give out pop vocal Grammys, and Heartbreaker is

not going to be rewarded. Even though the entire end are those three that that that like laid over those three vocal tracks which are made of her song. Her voice is unbelievable. The fact that she can just decide what VERSU melody she's gonna do and it works. At any time you're gonna give out vocal Grammys and only have Mariah have a couple, fuck you actually up the ass. It's so ridiculous, it's crazy disrespectful, and the Grammys are canceled.

And this is my thing is it's like, if Billie Eilish can win in No Shade, and if she can win in one year what Mariah has in her entire career years, get the funk out of here. I want to talk about lover Boy. I want to talk about the j lo of it all for just yeah, let's chat. I mean, let's do it. You wait, was this do we did? We get this on the on the record, you are on you you have a hot take on this,

my hot no this. So before we started, Bone was saying, you know, because we're listening to the rarities as well, which is fantastic. I love that she's sang out here on my own. I love that song on such a classic old Irenekara song from the Fame soundtrack, which is recorded in two thousand. She because she's saying it when

she was young. At a talent show, we were saying Bone was talking about the lover Boy original mix that she was gonna do and put on the it was gonna be liter the song and Glitter, and then Tommy Motola because they had been divorced at this point, he was working with Jennifer Lopez and well after Mariah had done all of this work on Loverboy with the sample that she wanted, he took it and gave it to j LO, who was also on the label, and he basically was just like you went behind Maria's back and

sucked her up creatively full context. Glitter was was distributed by Sony. Mantola was still working at Sony was able to see the dailies and was able to see I guess maybe not the dailies, but like the tracks. So like Tommy Amatola got got his hands on lover Boy, which has this yellow light orchestra sample. It's so good, so good, and like Mariah picked hand picked it out herself. Um,

I think with Jermaine Deprade maybe, um, probably so. Then first so Tommy Motola fuctor over twice in this first gives the sample to JLS like here record this song UM, and then it turns out to be I'm Reel. It uses that UM sample, but it's not the jaw Rule remix. It's I'm Real but it's like really sort of upbeat

and peppie and has this disco sample. And then when um Mariah is is laying down vocals with draw Rule and this duet for the Glitter soundtrack, Tommy Motola gets wind of that then tells Jlo's people, Hey, got put

jaw Rule on this. Let's just remix I'm Real with that sample, with it, with this, with that song that has that old, that old sample that I told you guys abou So if I was Mariah Carrey and my art had been violated like that and just so nakedly sabotaged in that way, I would I would have ended up in a facility like the way I would. I would have been yeah, institutionalized. Yeah, I would have ended up the same place she would have been, like you know,

like one. And the thing is to also know that she is responsible for and labors over, as you said, that music, and to give it to an artist like Jlo who no shade, but it's just not she's not artistically involved musically in that way, it's just not what

she does. She does something different and she does it really well, but it's it's it's the lowest blow, especially because he wanted to funk her up because he wanted to in any way stop the success of an acting project that she had, because he was always forbidding her to act, take acting lessons, etcetera. God. So, so then we were talking before we started, and you were you were kind of saying that you that do you that you like this lover boy that that's on the rarities.

I love this lover boy on the rareas I never really like. I mean, the lover boy on the Glitter soundtrack is fun, but you could you could tell it was just like a little too like Frankenstein out of like other beats and stuff, and there's like three different features on it. I was just like, it just felt like it's just like a very chaotic Mariah song to me. Um and and it alway always stayed out to me

that way. I was like, Okay, this is not I was like, this is not what the original intended work was, do you know what I'm saying. I always had that suspicion for me I'm gonna go ahead and agree with Maria that the that the cameo version of lover Boy is better, Like I do. I actually think that that every the stars aligned here and we ended up with a better lover boy, I mean, a lover and well much like a daddy. She does that, yeah, but she does, but like it works with this, Like don't don't like

the calic cameo thing, Like I just love it. I just think it's so fun and eighties and yes it is chaotic, but that to me makes it like more the genre and more the vibe. Like I just don't see I guess, like I hear that Loverboy cameo version that we all know, and I feel like this sounds like a hit song in the movie, like the movie needed it to be like or whatever, and like had it been the other song, it's like a little bit more like down tempo, It's like a little bit more.

It just doesn't feel as much like it's suiting the purpose that the lover Boy with cameo needed to. I still like it, But so the Loverboy love Both cameo version is why did you do that? Like it had to be a successful song in the world of the movie and the lover Boy original Firecracker mix is um like the Cure where it's like it doesn't really make sense in the film. Okay that that I will say. My hot take is I do love I'm real withdraw

roule by j Loo. And this is the thing. I think it's important to say that it's not Jia is Mariah and it's but like Mariah has every right to like not know j loever. Um, but I feel like it's a thing where again it's this, it's some capitalist class motherfucker who's pitting these who's pitting these and created conflict intention whether there didn't need to be, undermining solidarity between artists and is being like fully neoliberal Margaret Thatcher asked, motherfucker,

and is like pitting these people against each other. The thing about Mariah is she can't help herself. She can't. She has been asked about j Lo many times over the past twenty years or whatever, and she's always shady and borderline. She even has got she even has said things like she's not a singer, etcetera. Whatever. But the fact of the matter is that's another reason why we

love Mariah. She cannot help herself. When she thinks of a funny, smart thing, she's gonna say it, and yone, it's like yeah, and you can't touch her ultimately at the end of the day. So it's like for me, I forgive her for anything she's done. That's like super sady and I I will say this. She she again could not help herself when she said at the end of that chapter and at the end of the day, lover Boy was the best selling single of the year. I'm I'm real, I know. I was like, oh my god,

I mean, but this is the thing. Though I didn't know about all this. I really did like the research after I read that that chapter because I did not know that that was that, that was all happening. That was the catalyst. Yeah, honestly. And I even went back and watched, like, you know, the dumb YouTube videos are like Shadius Maria moments. I said out loud, it all makes sense, all makes sense now, and we loved, we loved j Lo on this spot, of course. But it's

also I see, I see why Maria feels this way. Yeah, you know, I mean, for me, it's just like it's so weird that they're so constantly in conflict like in the media, because they're so different, they have nothing in common. Like there, I guess they're the same sorry generation generated action. Like I guess they've been successful through the same periods of time. And I think, honestly, what binds them the most is that people keep sucking needing them to be

in the same conversation. Let's stop. That's the thing. I don't think so honey, doing the Maria Versjlo of at all, because ultimately there's no competition because one of them is extremely talented in one way, one of them is extremely talented in another. You know, Jlo is a dancer and performer and actress. Mariah is a composer and singer and

and musical actress and actress. And let's talk about the acting a little bit, because one thing I loved was the chapter where she talks about when Tommy Matola finally allowed her to take an acting class and she meets with this very like very well characterized in the book,

kind of cookie acting teacher. It's like draped in fabrics and smells like essential oils or whatever and tells your lay on the ground and like relax and go to her safe place and she can't find a safe place, and she has a she has like a real physical breakdown because she's realizing she doesn't know even how to pretend to feel relaxed and safe. This to me was like,

this is someone who has been psychologically tortured. And that's something that I think is like pretty explicitly stated without being without being explicitly stated in the book, is like, she was psychologically abused for years by Tommy Mottola years her her whole life, her whole fucking life. She did not have a memory of a safe place to go to. I think that was even one of the drilled down layers was the acting teacher was like, Okay, but what

about in your past? And she was like I still like she was, She's like, I still don't have that place that I have no memory of feeling safe. How sad is that? You know? Which makes which makes the end of the book when she says she can finally sit down and she has the kids and she's had a nice Christmas, because that's another part of the book is her fascination with Christmas is sort of explored and

explained because she never had a real family Christmas. She always wanted to have the family have a nice Christmas together, but always interrupted in violence or arguing or whatever the fuck. And she in her adult life because she has clung to the inner child, which is I think another reason why I love her so is she refuses to lose that, and I think it's something that everyone could learn from.

In some elements, she says her fascination with Christmas and the need to be joyful around Christmas and celebrate is

because she never had that. And so at the end of the book, when she's at peace after the concert, like I think it was a New Year's concert or something, and she's looking out at every all of her fans that had been there and the people that have worked with her that have been there and stuff, and she's finally sitting there and everyone's retired to their rooms, and the kids are safe and happy, and um, they've had

like a festive moment, if you will. Um, she's able to sit there and she's able to have a quiet moment with herself, and she says, I am peaceful, I am complete, and that like just gave me. I was just so moved by this because it was really it was really hard one because the whole book leads up to that because the whole book you're sort of held at the point of like you're held at the question of is she has she ever felt happiness? Like you know,

I don't know. That sounds like a little extreme undermatic. Well, she describes that as like being a difficult thing for her because she also talks a lot about how she genuinely believed when she married Tommy Motola this was a price she had to pay for success, that you could

not both have success and happiness. It didn't exist like like almost the universe was saying to her, we'll give you success, you'll never have happiness, Like it didn't seem like a possibility to her realistically with the way that her her life was panning out, and she genuinely did believe that she'd be married to Tommy Metola forever because she thought, this is what it is, like, I'll be taken care of. This guy does get me musically, and we do have that connection. It's just that I would

be romantically happy. And also it's there an element of that is her not actually understanding what it is to be romantically fulfilled, sexually fulfilled, you know, emotionally fulfilled, never so it's not like she knew she was missing something, you know, she just thought this must be the way life is. She understood that trade off, or thought she understood it right right where. She thought that was the implicit thing. I think that her obsession with Christmas is

so is like I mean, thank God for that. You know. It's like it's so like we've only reaped the benefits of her obsession with Christmas. I feel, oh absolutely. I mean, when you hear the song all I Want from Christmas is you you feel like Christmas, you know what I mean, Like, I think it's the best Christmas song of all time. I would say, I would say it's it's got the you know, it's it's so funny because she did write

it so quickly. She says like it was like an hour and a half or so that she wrote it in. But to me, it's just like that's so like of course, because it is so pure, you know, it's upbeat, it's happy, it's expressing um a need for connection during Christmas. It's it's not about material things. In fact, it's like um issuing commercial like pursuits into material things. It's just about all I want for Christmas, is you that person that makes me happy? And that's what I That's what I

really want, truly deep down in my heart. And you can anyone can sing it, even if you're not someone that really celebrates Christmas like I feel like, it does have a spirit to it. It's spirited, it's happy, it's jubilant. It is that feeling of Christmas, and it's to me. I would I would, I would say it is the

best Christmas song. Wow. And there are some fun things to expect from Matt Rogers and his Christmas music were more No, because it won't be this year, but anyway, yeah, well, I mean things are happening, but maybe maybe that this year. Definitely not this year, but anyway, we're visiting that later. Um. But yes, so what what if you had to say your favorite thing about as we sort of we're an hour an hour sixty. I could talk about this forever.

And that's another thing about the book is when it ended, I was so depressed. All I want to do is to talk. But you know, it was so funny when she does, she very briefly touches on the New Year's Eve debacle. And I say debacle because she says not all tobaccos are created equal. Darling in the book, which I loved, but I loved when she said it's gonna

be hard for me to find right now. But basically what she says is like she likens it too when you're a little kid and you get your eye, you get sand in your eye on the sandbox, and then you leave, go on, do your life, become a doctor, like be really successful. Um we we we can into this. I found I found the passage. Say the passage, yet you can say, you're obviously going to read it better

than I can remember it well. She's talking about like the risks of singing the cold, and she's talking about Luther Andrews was the first startist to warm me the risk of singing the cold. There's a certain performance of mine in the Bitter Cold wearing a sheer bedazzle leotard and eight in Glubaton's at the World's Busiest Intersection, etcetera, etcetera.

To me, it's as if I was a child playing in the sandbox and I got stand in my eye, wept theatrically and caused a scene, and then arrived twenty years later at my class room, and after I had, after having gotten a PhD and become a celebrated scholar, only have my classmates asked, oh, but how's your eye? I was a lot of things in that fleeting moment in the cold, but I knew one thing certainly, I was not I was not broken, not even close. I had been through so much worse. All debacles are not

created equal dotted. So she reads that in the audiobook, and after she says that, but how's your eye, she cracks up and they have to cut the take and she starts again. It's just so funny and so real, and you can tell it really doesn't matter to her, but I remember it mattered so fucking much to the whole world. Like no one could stop talking about that for like a week, and I was just like shut up, Like and you know what, I don't even know what

we said on this podcast at that time. I'm sure we touched on it, but it's like I was saying before, It's like part of loving Mariah is is being able to make jokes about it all, you know, And we've even joked about Bianca as if it's like she like very she very seriously took on this like ultra ego. But it's like, no, she was. She realized how dumber.

She's a goof. She's a goof. She's fun. The fact that she even wrote music like alternative rock music sung through Bianca, it's like, what a dedication to your craft tree to like create this fictional character and then like fill her creative life out with her own songs that that are that are differentiated from your own. Like, that's amazing, that's great. Did you see what I texted you, um

about the emancipation of it all? She says, um Um, emancipation was an amazing time, and it was amazing time for my fans. They need to see me succeed, They needed to see me come back like that. I agree, that was an amazing moment in that culture. That's one of the best that culture moments in history. And honestly, I'll never forget how triumphant it felt because because here's

the thing, like through the glitter of it all. I think I told this on the podcast, but the day the album came out was nine eleven, and she actually talks very vividly about how when she saw the towers fall, she was in that detox rehab center that her brother basically fooled her into going too because she thought it was a spot. She really didn't need a detox freehab center. She was just exhausted from sleeping two hours and six

days during the glitter promotion cycle. Psycho Um, but she says that's where she watched the towers fall down, and I actually, I mean this is true the day of nine eleven, and it was scary to live in the Tri State area on nine eleven, like that was that was really a very dark day. But I had been living for that. I remember it was Tuesday, September eleven. This is a music came out on Tuesdays. I said, Mom,

today after school, we're gonna go get Mariah's glitter. You told me that we could, and she was like, yes, of course. And then not an hour and a half later, I'm getting picked up from school early, Like it's really weird. Like I just got there and my mother was like, we gotta go home. There's something happening, etcetera. And that's when, um, you know, an eleven year old me was sort of realizing what was happening, but I still was like my security blanket at that time was gonna be that album,

regardless of any national tragedy. I was like, you know you will take me to the to the CD store to get this album. I was hit in hysteric and you did buy it. She was like they're gonna be closed. I was like, we have to go. So we get there, they're closing and the people they're like teens that were working at the store were like, um, we're closing because of nine eleven. Like as it was happening, my mother was like police, like he won't. I knew they needed.

They knew to call at nine eleven on the day. No, I'm just saying, like obviously, but it was so they were like, we can't do this right now, and I was just I think they saw in my eyes that I was such a gay kid that my mother, my poor mother would not gay kids. They knew my mother couldn't deal with nine eleven and me that day if I didn't have Maria. So they said, they said, let's get this little kid. I almost said a little fact,

and I am going to say a little fact. I was the album so that he cannot make his mother's life more of a living hell than it already is going to be with all the uncertainty in the w R L L D. I have a question, did they have um, miss padlock A Silk songs on that album or no, Silk does not appear on the album. But I mean, it's so funny. Pod is good in the movie. She goes such a bad singer on the track, like it's but on purpose, but she's so perfect in that

she's so good. And then there's a moment where like they put Maria on the track instead of Silk, and Terence how it looks at podn like nods and she nods back like, Yeah, we're gonna get this bitch to sing for me. And it's just so funny. Poo is a star. But we knew that we love her. We love her. Dearly, come back, Podma, it's time for you to come back. We weren't able to. We we couldn't we We were supposed to get Papa back on the show and then schedule gliding. Yeah for Taste the Nache.

But um, we'll get her back soon. But anyway, I wanted to ask you what your favorite if we haven't talked about and you talked about one thing, that's your favorite thing about the book, what's your favorite thing. Oh um, my favorite thing about the book is honestly, her talking about process. I know this sounds it's like when she she there. There's a part in the book where she lays it out pretty clearly. She's like, this is the

way I like to work. Is I like to um laid down like a scratch vocal where the lyrics aren't even that complete, but it's just like syllable syllable syllables. Then I'll do a lyrics pass after those are down, then I'll go back and do another vocal track that has the finalized lyrics, and then I'll do background vocals. I'm like, oh my god, we're getting a peek into her her creative like fill like principle. You know, it's like that was very special manage, Like, oh, that's very

that's that's worth the price of the book alone. Yeah. To me, it was also really fun for her to hear her say like, I like it to be just

me and my engineer. If I could do my own thing by myself, I would creating the vocals as like a very like almost like she describes it as like almost a sacred process for her, and that is so evident when you're such a fan of hers for so long because her choices are unparalleled, like the fact that like the fact that the way she sings his mainstream is like like just like her choices and her like riffs, and like when she's singing in full voice and head voice,

and the way she can transition between them, and her use of whistletone, and how over the years she's employed the whistletone in such a different way, like how she layers it into two tracks, like when she's deciding to do it and not do it like that to me was so amazing to hear, and and I I would say, for me, there's two. I have another one too, but you go, you go first, Well, my my, my, sorry.

My second one is the epilogue where she's like, if I have one thing to share with the world, it's and the sounds that corny as hell, I know, but it's something that I needed to hear this week. Um. It was like, if there's one thing I can tell the world, that's to never give up on your dreams. And no mother, no mother, father, sister, brother, you know, like manager, person, cousin, friend, fake friend, chicking with the phone, chick, chicken,

and then she ends on Chicken with a Keyboard. Chicken with a Keyboard, can can like, can like take ever take that away from you, from from things that you've like built yourself. And I was like, fuck yes, because I gotta tell you, I am off the fucking wagon with like my discipline around like not looking at you know, the comments and whatever. I'm like fully back because there's nothing else to do now, and I'm just scrolling and

I'm like kind of letting it hit me. And I'm talking about in therapy, will work through it, but I'm just like, oh, fuck, like this is something I have to like fix pretty soon. But we're saying that was helpful to me. So I love the epilogue the girls where I have been pretty fucking mean to me over the past two weeks too. I don't I don't know what's in the water, but I got the we got the I got the nastiest review on the podcast app.

It was so it was so baseless and fucked up and aggressive, and I was just like, it really nailed me, and we're actually really ruined my mood. When we were right before we got on the episode last week and and we talked about this off off the record after we finished recording I and I know, reader, it sounds kind of, you know, frivolous and we're on our little perch when we sort of complain about this ship. But

like it's my feelings, it's it will it. It fucking like rocks her soul in a way, and and um, it's a matter of scale in some cases in Matt, like after Hot Dog came out, Matt and I were drunkenly face timing and we were like confiding to each other about this. But it's like there's I don't know, there's there there's like a there's a certain like unnecessarily toxic thing to all this, and like we were still we're still at that place in the culture where we're

figuring out how to move past it. And I think there is progress and there is some empathy that we're all practicing towards each other with with with this, and and no matter what your station is in life, we're all sort of trying to understand each other better. But this is something that like I am working through on a very deeply personal level. It's like the one thing

that is truly ruining my life right now. Yeah, it's really and I feel bad because like I constantly think like and this is another element of it that I hate, but like just so just to say this, like when I when I think about the way that I'm dealing with the way I'm getting it, and most people are so sweet and so nice, but yes, then they'll be like that one little comment about like the funk this like this host is like too much or whatever, and

like like there's so much meaner than that, like it's so crazy, and then like they'll and I think about what you must get and on the scale you must get it, and then I feel stupid for feeling bad. But then I'm like no, actually no, And then but that's also an element of this, is like please stop comparing Bowen and like if you'll just say what are you? If you if you love Bowen, I agree with you.

I do too. But he he would hate it if he heard you talk about the way if you talk about me the way that you do he this way, it would not endear you to him at all to say that I am bad. And if you think that you're impressing me by saying anything negative about Bowen Yang, you couldn't be. You could not be more wrong that like when I take any attack on Bowen is attack on me, Like that's personal to me. I was going to say an attack on you as an attack on me.

I mean, if our readers don't know by now, if you listen to this podcast and don't know that I and I tell Matt this on too regular of a basis that I think he is the smartest, funniest, this is my person. I'm like Matt, Matt checks off so many superlatives for me, and I love him so so deeply, like a sister, like a brother, a sibling. If you just don't, don't even bring that, don't present that to

me like a fucking offering. Okay, And likewise, for me, it's just like any any anything against Bowen Yang is you getting smacked. And like I'm serious, I the only way I get Dynasty smack a bit. I will smack you. I will smack you in the face if you come from Bowen, I really will. I'll hit you. And that's that's me. That's a threat. That's that's not a threat,

it's a fact. Step off. And also, don't listen to the podcast if you don't like one of the hosts were it you put sucking dukes up, I will fucking it. Will take such a look, and I will throw hand to destroy you. We will throw hands, will throw hand me the hands. See me with their hands, Come see me with them hands hands. Anyway, back to the positivity around this book. Okay, what was your What were your

favorite moments of the book. I have so many. So basically there's the Diva's chapter where she there's like a solid six pages, so I'm gonna get to that in my own things. So um, there's like a solid six pages of this book that is all just adulation for um Aretha Franklin, which is so deserved. And also we should say Mariah's impression of Arethas and Diana Ross Maria they're playing games and then when she's like, why are

they playing games? But then they turned the fucking air off and she's like gets so animated and then she goes, I was dying. She's just so good. So I love the whole Deva section. I loved hearing about her time with Whitney. I I just I loved it so much because again that was like the machine around them being like, whoop, they're not gonna like each other. They're not gonna like

each other. Let's like, you know, prepare them for this, but all so fan the fires and then for them to connect and compliment each other in such a way. And she said, you know, Brittany was the princess of all vocalists. You know, she was born into almost royalty in terms of singing. Mariah is a craftsman and her laborer in terms of like composition, and she's they're both

incredible singers, etcetera. But they're so different. And how they complimented each other and the laughs that they had at the time they shipped together, you could tell it meant so much to Mariah, and there's so much love in that and um, ultimately, and I also just give an honorable mention to she says a few good words about a few good men, and there's like beautiful little tributes to Stevie Wonder and Prince and Nelson Mandela and um,

you know those all those gentlemen. But I think my favorite thing um in the book is one that's something that's been talked about so much, which is the Derek Teter of it all. I mean, I think that they're their their connection over there, shared I shared identity, and they're the way that they first flirted and talked to each other like they were the only people in the room. But she kind of woke up in that moment and

the way that translated into her music. I almost like feel thankful that that meeting happened because it created the whole first half at least of Butterfly. Um, you know, track one through five or six, you could pretty much argue was all about that relationship that, however brief, but um, you know, I I was also a huge fan of his at the time because I was I was really into it, and so the fact that they were dating and now I get to like hear about the specifics

of it. Then meeting at this like private Armani Runway show and then like how cool it was and how galvanized she was by the conversation, the people her age, smart people, her age, of all different races, talking about race for the first time, seeing a family, seeing a family like his, loving and that was very emotional. She realized that it wasn't her, her her biracial identity that was creating problems. It was the people in her family

that were creating problems. And to see a possibility of a loving family that looked like her really changed things for her. And I think that that relationship obviously is so crucial in her development as a human being. And I just everything about it, like the way she felt awake sexually for the first time. I just love that she really went there with that chapter and it created

my favorite music of hers. It's just such a vividly painted, illustrated like thing and like it's one of those like honestly, like it's one of those things where it's like that's love, that is love, like those like the conversations with the people who do make you feel like there's no one else in the room. Like that is huge, and I'm horny name for it it. I mean, it was such a horny moment in the book. And also the way that they were like sneaking her into that like pizza parlor.

She went out the back and like whatever, like and like just that sneaky in this like it was so tense, you know, Like that part of the book was so

like it was. And then she gets home and she's like drenched, and she was so thankful that Tommy wasn't there to see her was so wet, because she would have had to explain why she was wet, Like the whole fact of the matter that that she had like um, surveillance in every room in her house except the bathroom, and the only place she could find solace was the bathtub, Like come on, like that, the fact that she was

living like that. And then when she talks about UM, God, I can talk about this forever, just like getting fries with to brat that like and that to burger King. Yes, when you go to Burger King next time, reader, you better appreciate the freedom you have to go to Burger King Mariah Fries. But but and then the last the other thing was um, I was really moved by um. And the song is sort of like um, it's so uh not a basic song, but it's just like it's

so for the masses. Yes, it's so commercial and for the masses that I don't think gets credit, but it

really means something to so many people. It's a beautiful song. UM. But I loved hearing about the creation of Hero, how it just kind of came to her in the hallway, and how it was originally for Gloria Stefan, and then she performed it live at that concert and schenected me for the very first time, and she felt that she really connected with her fans, who she realized she had in that moment, and that whole section I thought was

was really terrific. Yeah. I think she's one of those artists. Listen, we're talking about thirty years. She's had number ones for four decades in a row. Um, obviously in a row. But it's this thing where it's like, I feel like she has these seasons in her career that like are so distinct and are marked by struggle. Yes, but it's like she it's the book is a triumph The book like sort of like tenses you up as you read it, but like it's like it's like by the time you

get to that last chapter, it's it's triumphant. It's like, oh my god, thank god, she's happy. Yeah. I'm actually deciding in this moment that I don't want to go negative on this one part, because I do think it was a cultural thing that Celendion didn't know that she wasn't.

I think Selena's just goof aloof, and she just didn't know that she doesn't supposed to challenge read the Franklin in that moment and from Mariah carry someone who idolized her and you know, is a black woman like she she had to look at that happen and be like, I'm mortified this is happening, and then Patty Labell afterwards being like I would have smacked you upside the head had you done what that child did, like you like that was wrong, but but like I can't be reading

I can't be reading about it. She didn't know any better. I don't think no, no, no, but I'm gonna do something else. I have a good I have another good. I don't think okay good, but if you watch back. I went back and watched it, and I feel like a wreath. It was just having fun. Yeah, it didn't seem like a wreath. It was like that ghastly like what was that like? Mortified or no? I think it was more just everyone around her, who of course I

was visibly uncomfortable. Well, and Mariah has the reverence she talks about how you know, when she first met her, she got down on her knee and said like, I want to thank you for everything you've done. My name is Mariah, etcetera. And then Mariatha said, later, Maria, you have good manners. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that which was

a part I really liked. And she's like, that's what the other girls don't have matters, And I think that informed the way she looked at that moment was she knew that it was important, the decorum of it all was important to Aretha, and for Seline to challenge her that was just against Mariah's moral code. It wasn't respectable.

I get it, um, I do want What I thought was missing in the book was the moment where Donna Summer backed out the night of for this like for this other Diva's show that was supposed to have Diana and was it in another Divas show? But I don't know what it was, but it's in the book that it was supposed to be a trio between Donna Summer, Diana Ross and Mariah and then Donna Summer came to rehearsal and then was like, all of a sudden not doing it anymore. No one knows why. I don't know

about that Donna Summer. I mean, we love her music, but she was very homophobic. In the end, we that we just have to we just have to put that out there. But we love on the radio, we love Last Dance, We love um, you know all the bops, So it might be time. It might be time for I don't think so, honey. And we are doing Mariah centric, I don't think so honey, this being a Mariah centric episode, an episode I have so enjoyed as I enjoyed this book and I loved just like going back and listening

to all her music. I can't recommend enough. I'll repost those playlists too. I'm gonna make it more because I really enjoy doing it. But I have one. Okay, this is Matt Rogers. I don't think so many. As time starts now, I don't think so honey. Anyone's sleeping on the album Charm Bracelet. Okay, you don't have to understand. Even though this was the album that was after Litter and before I'm Ancipatient, this album has bops. Okay, boy,

I need you with Cameron. This is a bop through the Rain the way that Maria sinks that if you don't respect that, I don't think so honey. If you're not off on that song as a gay person, as a queer person, I don't think so honey. On this hashtag national coming out that you need to come out as a stand of charm Bracelet. I know it was a few days ago recording on the day. Let me just say some songs that are on here that are

fucking slays yours. Okay. The song Clown, which was her first time as she came for Eminem Clown is an unbelievable song. You all need to listen to Clown, and if you don't, I don't think so, honey. Also, the cover of Bringing On the Heartbreak? Is it? The songs subtle invitation? Is it? The one of the last songs is the last actually a Sunflowers for Alfred Roy, which is a gorgeous tribute to her father who passed. Five seconds beautiful, please stand charmed, braceted, listen to charm boted.

If you don't, I don't think so, honey. You're not a lamb and that's one minute. Don't be calling yourself a lamb and not be not be including charm bracelet into the conversation. Beautiful. Now do you think Mariah's art pop is charm Bracelet or Memoirs of an Imperfect Angel? I think probably her chart her art pop is probably me. I am Maria, the elusive Shan too, but I feel like if it's her art pop, it's the underappreciated album has has has has like has like um, you know,

like sort of a hindsight value. Then I think it's tied between me, I am Maria, the Alusa Shantus and charm Bracelet because I think Memoirs Memoirs has respect like Memoirs spawned a hit song. Obsessed was a huge. Obsessed was huge, but that was but that was kind of it though, right, and there was up at my Face was well And by the way, I watched that Up on my Face video again, Like you said last week, it's crazy how much fun they're having together having so

I told that's why I said last week. It's like they're genuinely they're not faking it. They're enjoying each other's company. You would never be able to tell me that that would become the feud that it did. And also noticed that's not in the book at all. She doesn't even mention that. She's not even the words American. I don't even uttered because who cares. Yeah, I don't want to know.

I was thinking like, oh, there are intentional things that aren't mentioned, Like I guess I mean the entire time is like when she's gonna talk about Nick Cannon, then I feel like she she devotes like read paragraphs to it or something, and I'm like, well, she she goes into the Nick Kinna stuff and you get that she's got like a that was like a real love. And I always questioned I was like each other's lives still, Like yeah, I was always like Mariah and Nick Kennon.

I wonder what that really is. And I think that she says it as plainly as she can, Like she was really unaware of who he was because she didn't watch TV, she didn't know all of his nineties relevance. And then she met him and he was fun. He was hot and fun, and he wanted to have kids with her, and he was obsessed with there. So you meet someone hot, fun who's obsessed with you and wants the future, you'd be hard pressed not to marry Nick Cannon. If Nick Cannon wanted to wanted to marry me, I

would be like, yes, absolutely. Also, I thought it was interesting that she was like, originally Nick Canna was going to be in the Touch My Body video and we thought a nerd. I was like, I think he would have been a great nerd. He would have been a great nerd. He was like, he's a sketch performer, he can do it. Yeah, hot nerd culture is culture. Hot nerd culture. His culture equals MC squared. Also was terrific. Um,

I mean, emancipation is a fucking moment. Then you got, I mean glitter might be Mariah's art pop. Sure, Oh that's yeah, that's that's fair. That's fair. You're right, you're right, And then the other ones are just all kind of critically acclaimed masterpieces. All right. So the thing is, after I do my I don't think so, honey. What what happened is Bowen will do his. I don't think so, honey. And if he's ready, I can set the clock. Yeah

I think I'm ready. Okay, Well that means I will start the clock Bowen Yang's I don't think so, honey. Time starts now. I don't think so, honey. Marshall Mathers m stupid clown, bit clown, dumb ass, toxic horror. You are eminem and there's a reason why why you so obsessed with her? Boy. I want to know you have been harassing this poor woman ever since you wanted. You decided to get in your dumb little ideation machine that you call your brain that you wanted to fuck her,

and she was like, no, stop it. You have other options out there, Marshal. You don't have to funk Mariah Carey. You don't have to show up at the oscars in out of nowhere and perform and and do lose yourself. It's a great song, It's maybe one good cultural contribution. Stan, I don't care for I don't even uh see, I don't even know. I'm I'm gonna get into this after that. My minutes up. But first of all, I don't think so many Eminem. Okay, my minutes up. That's what minute?

Do we care about Eminem's contribution to hip hop? Let's just say to hip hop, look me in the eyes. As as as lovers of hip hop, you and I. I don't fucking care for Marshall Mathers at all. It's I just think he came along at the exact right time where we would have even allowed someone like, yeah, well, you know what, of those people are very ill and they need a lot of help, and I'm willing to pay to help them get the help that they need. Actually, I'll do us. I'll do a scholarship every year at

my high school. Find the person that still likes Eminem and give them six hundred dollars. I'll pay that for the rest of my life. I'm willing to do a scholarship to help young kids that think that would I would start this scholarship with you. We should start the scholarship. Can can you do? Can we each do? Let's just each to five hundred for each of our high schools. Does that work? So so it's like we each we

each pay a thousand total? Yeah, okay, So basically, it's like a teacher that we trust at the school, find the kid that looks like they might like Eminem and give them the money to get the help that they need to get the help that they need, which is, if you like Eminem, you need to get the help you need. Is actually real culture number one hundred and four. If you like he needs to get to help to help you need waiting scholarship, then it has to be

that we that that goes towards their schooling. Literally, I don't think so, honey, Eminem, you need an education if you like him, rancid, I don't know why we even I feel like Eminem is like a squatter in our brain. Well, first of all, I'll tell you why we even give a fuck is because he came along. Well, no, it was, it was, It was fucking before that. Basically, like homophobia was engineer Doug. Since i'll lie for the five dollars,

it's a thousand Doug. It's a thousand Doug now. So basically, like homophobia was cool, and so he came along and made his whole thing homophobia and misogyny, and like the culture couldn't have been more toxic at that point because it was post like the Clinton and Clinton impeachment. Everyone hated women. Hillary was the biggest punching bag just at that time, Like it was just so fucking cool to

hate women. And the fact that he took misogyny and violence against women and homophobia so fucking far and made made such a huge fortune on it, he should be sucking ashamed for the rest of his life. And if you think that there aren't legions of men who hit their girlfriends because they thought it was cool because they heard Eminem did it, you've got another fucking thing coming. And it's disgusting. And he's the worst thing that's come out of American culture, oh pop culture. And now he's

sucking with Mariah Carrie. He's not fit to shine her shoes. I'm so happy you did that. Hashtag hashtag literally literally sister life hashtag after fuck him? And I used to think he would. I used to think he was hot too, which is so tough. He's got a fucking fat ass. You'd be a superstar bottom if he put his mind to it. He really would. Why don't you tell that to Chuck Schumer Nancy Pelosi? There we go, Yeah, why

don't we tell to chor him out the window? Chuck and Nancy, Let's let's let's get a little dirty here. Why not let's play dirty? Um? Okay, So, so a few things before we close out. I just want to say I loved this episode so much. What a treat. I love a book hub. I know it's Matt and I don't want this to be part of the narrative that you don't read too many books. I don't like this anymore. It's such a bad bit. It's such a bad bit. I don't like the bit anymore, like because

it's because it's not true. Be we lean into it because it helps with the dichotomy with you and I. But now I have people like actually in my DNM d n M as I try to make. I have people in my d MS now treating me like I'm dumb and like trying to do a bit to me, like I'm stupid. First of all, you don't know me like that, get out of my d M. Second of all, like I'm so, it's not I'm I'm I don't not read.

So I just love a book club. I think we can do this, um with a book that sort of strikes our interest in the future, I would love that. Let's do that. It's gonna get us away from this narrative has to come organically. I think another thing we should talk about is we're gonna go a few a few more episodes than normal that are just me and Matt for a bit, and then we'll every now and

then we'll bring in again us. But this is sort of the dynamic for now in the short term, just because our schedules are kind of crazy now, um, it's harder for us to find times that work for just between me and Matt in the first place, but then to figure out I guess schedule into that is also

a little bit of, um, an outside factor. So it's actually what is exciting for us right now, Like you know, Boone and I feel like we can be Bone and I sometimes when it's just the two of us, not that we haven't ever been like ourselves and having a blast when we have any guests. It's just we want to do this for a little while. And we've been hearing you guys, and you guys seem to like these episodes with just bo and I, so we're down for it. So yes, but we'll still bring in guests every now

and then. Yeah, and it'll be great. Um. But yeah, So we're excited about that, and we're excited about this app and we're excited about each other. And uh that's really number one. Um wow, I love this And you've got to read the meaning of Mariah Carey I mean, and also shout out to Andy Cohen Books that that published this. Oh yeah, did you know that she thanks him in the acknowledgements. Well, she was on Watch What Happens Live on the same week as you want an Honor?

When an honor to share the same error segment as her in one week? Please better yet, even listen to the audio book, I feel like it's really one of those experiences that is enriched by the sort of sound that the sounds of her reading. She has changed the game for audiobooks for sure. I agree. I agree. She better want a Grammy for that, I would imagine. All right, so this has been last culture and we are, of course gonna take it out with a song why sex.

When everybody boo, it's clear and when they get impressed, Man, wouldn't get this good delusion. You're losing your mind. It's confused, and you'll you're confused. You know why you're wasting your time? Mariah said, Let's say see you right, do you like your bathe in a Windex? Oh? Oh, Windex in the chorus, the way that Windex is a lyric in hurt, The way that Windex figured in as the prominent lyric in

the chorus. I can't. She just watched my big Back Grief wedding, and it's like I'm reading Windex into this song, she said. Windex writes, Windex writes, Okay bye,