"SWIFT/SWIFF" (w/ Matt & Bowen)

it today. I thought we're gonna talk Oh my god. Well, I'm happy to talk about it on the pot And also, um, I want you to know, like, not only that, but I was attacked by a reader in the d MS. What did they say? I was attacked by a reader in the d m s and they said, this is what this reader said to me. They said, I wish that you would talk about things that me and my queer friends really talk about. Your podcast is feeling very sponsored lately by whom I said, I said, I said

to him. I responded, I said, listen, queen, what do you mean? And he said I didn't think you would respond. I was like, yeah, I bet you did it. I was like, but now I demand to know. He was like, no that he said, you know, the wand division of it all, this real house as a salt like of it all feels very sponsored. And I was like, if we're being accused of talking about straight things, they think

those are that's straight culture. I don't understand. There's there was some there was like a codedness in what he was saying, and that we're talking about one division. We're talking about Salt Lake City and he called it. He called it. He said it felt very sponsored, and I thought like, oh, he doesn't. He's like and he said, I wish you would talk about what me and my queer friends really talk about, Like you haven't talked about

UK drag race at all. And I was like, let me write down on my list UK drag race, I said. To the person. I was like, if it makes you feel any better? UK drags, I was like, if it makes you feel any better? Boonen and I are both absolutely Bimini stands Bimini. Bamboo Lash is as charismatic of drag content contested as there's ever been. They are. They are phenomenal and I truly what a star, what a star? I feel now? Well, I don't know how you feel.

But this last episode I felt was really controversial, very controversial. I did not agree with the person who went home not to not to not to sort of dabble in this in this imagery for the people listening, But I feel that Ruined Michelle go to a different multiverse when they crossed the pond. They get there and it's like the way that they judge is just fundamentally different for anything. It's that Doctor Stranges to Sorcer of Supreme really is

getting in their heads. It's something that goes on where they get were sponsored. Oh I'm gonna talk about how it ended too, so banned down the hatches. I have no understanding of what their decision making is when they get there. Like like in this last episode spoiler alert, the bottom two was Taste and a Horror after the stand up challenge and then and they sent a Horror home,

which I thought was bullshit. And you said something in the thread that was very um poignant I think, which is this top four is really tough because two out of the four of them have no chance of winning. Zero chance. Taste is never going to win the show. Ellie and Ellie is Ellie was never going to win

the show. But if you if you narrow it down to a top three, because I believe UK does the top three of Lawrence Cheney, Bimini, Bamboo Lash and a Horra, I feel like they all they all make cases for the whim absolutely and but now you have a full villain edit for Lawrence, which I think is kind of justified because I've never I've never gotten on the Lawrence train. Sadly, I just don't get it as much as Rue seems to. It's truly such a crapshoot to know what Ru will

laugh at. And I think I would, I would, I would tell him this to his face, like that, you don't know what will make Ru cackle, like through throw Ru into a cackling fit. It feels like non secretary, It's like, oh, it just feels coincidental whatever. But um Bimini is fully getting the winners at it at this point, do you think so? Yeah? Absolutely? Like they just showered her with praise about that, with that acne look, which

was genius, by the way, fully genius. And and Biminy is just like a star and like is confident and like has this like I don't know, stability, whereas Lawrence the Veneers starting to crack and you're you're sort of

seeing Lawrence like flash out a little bit. Yeah. Just my perspective is when you look at Biminy in pretty much every area that they judge on the show, when it comes to like performance quality, fashion, comedic instincts like outlook, p o V. Everything feels like fresh and new and like like it like like the maybe this isn't true because she obviously can get better from here, but like a really realized drag queen who is like ready to

execute on all levels and just knows themselves, whereas like and so that's why I think she's the winner. And also like, if Lawrence Cheney is going to come into this competition as a comedy queen, you probably should win a comedy challenge and not flopping the comedy challenges like you have been. And I don't I'm not a Lawrence Cheney hater, but I did want to ask me what he thought of when Ellie Diamond put the Order together and a Horra and Lawrence Chaney were so upset about

the way that Ellie did that. What was your take on that situation? I felt like it was I kind of see where Eli's coming from. Where Ali was trying to set each of her competitor, each of her you know, competitors, competitors up for failure. It felt like if Lawrence was good enough of a comedic performer, it wouldn't have mattered where she landed in the lineup. Yeah, I think the cool thing would have been to just be like, oh, whatever, I'll kill wherever I'm at, which is what Baby said.

And I thought that I was of two minds about it. It's like, I think that they should have just sucked it up and done whatever the order was and moved on, because in saying you should have been last or that the order was bad, what you're kind of doing is talking about everyone else. So so that was odd to me that they would make such a huge deal about it.

I guess the only person who was justified and feeling bad about it would have been a Horror because it's just hard to go first or quote unquote hard to go first again, like if you're actually a confident performer,

you shouldn't care about that. But where I did side with Lawrence a little bit was I felt it was patronizing of Ellie to be like, so is everyone okay with that, and when Lawrence was like, you don't care if we're okay with it, so don't ask us if we are, like you did what you did, like shut up, Like so I ultimately was like, I think she's right there that it's bullshit for Ellie to be like, let me just check in with you girls that you're okay

with it, like you don't actually care. You did this to funk us up, you didn't deny it, and now

we're we we see where you're at. I think it's also it's Lawrence kind of lashing out at losing control and also of this being some sort of come up, and it maybe where they've been antagonizing Ellie all season, saying like every it feels like for the last three episodes, every opening of the episode, like after the mirror, right after they reconvene after the last week's challenge and runway, when they reset to the next day and they all skip in and there in their in their regular clothes

and they gather at the table. The past three episodes have all been so Ellie, you haven't want to challenge yet and you must suck, like like that's been the thing, and that edit cuts to Ellie's talking to her, where she's like, they should stop underestimating me, and all it feels like, I don't know if that's intentionally been built on like a producer level to make it seem like they've picked on her and now she's like exacting some

sort of revenge. But maybe that's where Ellie was coming from, and it makes sense that Lawrence would react that way as well. Yeah, well Lawrence seems like there's a version of condition but can't take it because and also there's I mean, she's open about it, but she's obviously incredibly insecure. And so the fact that she is there and like has been praised by Rue as being so funny, Like you've I can't even remember watching Rue laugh at a contestant,

the way that rule will crack up whenever Lawrence. Cheney even wouldn't even do that with like Bob, she wouldn't even do that with like genuinely funny. She's like really really enamored with Lawrence in a way where even just

when she says her name, she's already laughing. It's it's like already at a ten to the point where maybe it's set an expectation in Lawrence's head, or like she thinks who she is and like now she's not succeeding and it's fucking with her sort of Alaska vibes, like in the Latin the last week of or two of All Stars to when she started to start a crumble,

but she definitely isn't cool as a cucumber lately. And I thought it was a bummer to see how hor Ago because I thought Ahor at least had a perspective and hasn't been in the bottom three times. Like I'm done with taste. I'm done with taste. The soup sandwich thing is really dark with taste. I saw that last night and I was like, but I think taste is just someone who like and I absolutely love like that kind of food as well, Like I like spy, sloppy doppy.

I still buy spaghettios from Trader Joe's to this day. Were you a sloppy Joe girl? I was? I love a sloppy Joe. I'll still need a fucking sloppy Joe, honey. And I love my I love my cup noodles, I love my spaghettios, I love my my bagel bites. Oh my god, you cannot keep me away from the frozen on I have trauma from watching other kids eat sloppy Joe. And I don't know what well I've I've told you.

Like when I was in when I was like younger, young, young, young, I had like I had like a food phobia when I was a little kid, like I could only I can only eat food that I saw my mom make and that was hot. And I didn't trust the cafeteria food. So when I'd watch all my peers like oh yeah, no, I was. I had like an issue with food when I was always learned something about my sister. It's like it's like the glorious gay onion. You know, it's the big queer onion. It's actually it's a front runner for

a title of that, the queer wed Onion. I would be doing such a disservice to not name this swift Swift but keep going, oh wow, that that's that's pretty good. That's another front runner. Sorry, No, I mean we preorgine all the time. This if we do here on help um okay, so wait, but I would watch these kids like slaba laba labba dooda um, these all be like like sloppy Joe's and I was like, I just would not eat my lunch and the amount of lunches I

threw out just from being afraid of food. Like it was so hearing that you love to sort of eat the sloppy, messy food is trigger for me because as Taste was talking about it, I was like so revolted that I almost had it turned off. It was a lot. It was a lot, but anyway, you saw the episode where she made it, right, I saw. I saw the clip that she posted to her Instagram where she makes it, and I was like, and she bites into it and thinks it's so delicious, and I'm like, that's gonna be

a no from me. Dog. It is lethal. It is lethal, so it is rotted and gutted as routed. It was not good. But anyway, so I guess you you are a bi mini Stan. I'm a Stan. The only winner um switching gears over to the Drag Race US. We had a snatch game with your thoughts as a character performer Extra News. I thought it was a decent snatch game. The ratio of like four of them being good to fire like it felt like a decent ratio. There wasn't like a full stand out to me. Even I'm sorry,

even with got Mack, it wasn't loved. I loved it was she deserved to win, absolutely, and she succeeded, and she was very good. And it is one of the stronger snatch game performance as we've seen overall. It's not gonna be a fucking Bob as you know, Usa Duba into Carol Channing. It's not gonna be Alaska's May West. It's not gonna be Jinks as Little Eaty. It's not like like like like those wins are like, oh my god, they're so good. I mean, this was just like I

think Paris Hilton was the perfect choice Forgottenick. It's not like one of those genius Snatch game performances for me. Does that make sense? Yeah? I think that What was so great about this is it's like it's kind of like with snatch game. I was really I think, actually this year is a really good example of many different ways you can do the snatch game. So, like you had, um a couple of different smart decisions being made here.

One was I thought Simone as Harriet Tubman. I thought it was really smart to do Harriet Tubman because we as the audience don't actually know what she was like, and so we we we're never going to be putting it up against um, a very well known personification of someone that we know well. We just all we're gonna be looking for is a strong comedic take, and Simone essentially doing herself as Maria Tubman is a very strong comedic take, and she was able to put jokes in there,

so I thought that that was really smart. Similarly, and I think a little bit this was a little bit stronger for me was Rose as Mary, Queen of Scott's because same thing, we don't actually know what she was like, but she was able to do a big character that was different from herself. Yeah, but but it was a vehicle for something that we already know her to do well. I think she's mentioned the fact that she's been Scottish before,

and she's like pulled out the accent. She's definitely done a runway and she's responded, I think, in the Scottish accent to the critiques. But I thought this was a more heightened, sort of overdrawn Scotta accent, and to me, I liked this a little bit more than the Simone one because it was playing two things at once. It was playing the fact that the Scottish accent is so ridiculous you can barely understand what she's saying, and so the lack of understanding is one game and then another game.

I thought that was being played that was really well executed, was like Mary Queen of Scott's able to look back at her life in retrospect, Like I thought it was funny that she had knowledge of the fact that she was beheaded. I thought it was funny that she knew the abree for fox Sake was FFS. Like. I just thought, like modern Mary Queen of Scotts who gets the deal

was funny to me. So there they were kind of doing the same sort of thing where it's like I'm gonna pick someone that I can personify, and they did it to different degrees in different ways. And then you have like honest impersonation and I think, like you can and that was gott Nick who and if you can do honest, good impersonation and be funny and improvisation as the character and have some jokes, I it's really tough to beat that person. And I think what was really

great about gott Nick is. She obviously knew a new Paris in her bones and could respond like Paris like that and be she puts Paris's face literally on, so she was able to put that face on her own

face and looked exactly like her. So yeah, in the Christian down to the Christian callen mom of that was what Meredith Marks wore on Real House, Jolo wore Jlo war and and an SNL bumper when she hosted like that that piece has been on everybody, which I'm saying, it's like a great thing, Like yeah, I know, it's it's a really fun item. Good. Those three were great.

And then I did like Denali as j Vin. I thought it was I thought it was there was jokes, and I thought it was really funny to have like that extremely laid wig in the ship beard Like that felt very j Vin to me. But they were probably the four best, right, the four best? Um, should we talk about the girl, the bad one, the one that we just can't really seem to you? The Queen's Bob Ross is upsetting to me and revolting to me on a level. I it upset me. It felt like a

nightmare watching it. If Unika is listening to this, We're so sorry. I like a lot of what she's done, A lot of what she's done. We really, we really love you to get here. Um, the instincts, the instincts were not there on this one. At every step, at on every level, the instincts were absent. R was basically screaming at her, don't don't do it like it was just but because the thing is, I don't know what you think, but if she had done bob Ross looking

like bob Ross, would that have been insensitive? That's the way bob Ross looked bob Ross was this is this is bob ross is hair. And if you were concerned about that, just do someone else. There's just a lot of them. There was just a lockdown on Yeah, that was it. That was it. And it was this like so they're rawl bob Ross didn't really have um no mean so their southern he spoke, he was he was from the south. But it it just it wasn't that.

It wasn't like a prospector you know. Um anyway, just to cut to got mixing, no like who like loves bob ROSSA apparently that was bad. The the Afro full of Squirrels I couldn't believe only it only looked dumb. But you know, she think, you know, she thinks she you know, she thinks it's genius. Yes, she thinks that that is like such an inspired thing. She is not you know what's happening. It's it's like she is not the note to edit is not arriving to her in

real time on the show. She's gonna watch this and be like, oh my god, I see now it's a hat on a hat and a hat on a hat almost everything I do, and she'll I'm back for All Stars, of course, and like an incredible queen. Yeah, really really gifted. And I just think it's it's she needs to think simpler, Like sometimes the simplest answer is the answer. Like I'm shocked she didn't do Carol Burnett. She would have been great. Like it matches. It's like it's like it's like got

make picking Paris. It's like, yes, it matches. Like find someone who kind of meets you where you're at energetically, sensibility wise, and then it'll it'll be like you're setting yourself up for something decent. You might not win, but at least like you won't it won't be a fucking train wreck. It's about embodiment. It's about embodiment and being able to have fun and and live and breathe as the character. Because Rue is going to improvise with you,

so fuck your jokes that you're prepared. You have to pick someone who basically is you that you can answer as them on the fly. It's not which is not even like an improv note. It's it's an impression note, which is different. It's a different discipline entirely. Um, I mean now, I mean unfortunately now, like I used to not be able to answer the question who would I

play for son snatch game? But now I know who and like this is so gross to say, but like ever since Fran, I'm like I it has to be like I felt her in my bones now that like I I would love to do her. Yeah, you know, as Fran is the definition of a winning snatch game. I think I even tweeted that. I think I even tweeted or no, maybe Joel did I think someone said Bowen has won the snatch game as as Fran. Who were your answers again for who I would do? For

who you would do? Yeah, I feel like it's actually tough because I feel like I could really easily slip into like Bethany Frankel. But yes, no, you would be greatest. I think I would be a good Bethanie. I think I also would be a good lou And I but like, but I don't know, Like then energy then is not that fun of an energy sad way, But then I think to myself, like, maybe I should do like Alicia Silverstone clueless so I can be like a sort of like I don't know. This is this chrish Liker tweet

tweeted this earlier. He was like, the most stressful question I'll never have to answer is what would I do for snatch game. I'm never going to do drag. I will not start. And I was like, I feel the same way like whenever anyone's like, who would you do for Snatch? I feel like I have to have an answer, and my answer is always Bethany because she's so like New York, like fast, ridiculous, like constantly crying at the drop of a hat, starting in like it feels like me,

it's whoever, whoever, whatever celebrity most closely matches Sam. That's what I'm saying. And I feel like that's not Bethany, So I don't know. I have totey well, I thought about her maybe, but then also I don't know. I also feel like someone could do Rachel McAdams and you could just go out there as Regina George. Yeah, you really could. But anyway, it's it's literally it's a question that Hans. You have so many options. You could do

Kate Hudson. You've already done a Kate Hudson impression, because like, how are you gonna make that funny? You know what? I think I would do any but the way that you did it on the on the pod, like we'd be like fun funk, let's just go smoking, like like you doing no Kate Hudson wanting to smoke by Boldie Hunting Kirk Russells. It's so much to you a good queen. It's too hat on a hat. It's like, no, no,

Here's what I think I would do. Incredible. I think I would do Bethany Frankel and halfway through I like, I gotta go. I gotta go because she's always leaving, and I would come back as Dolly Parton and every answer is a long song. That's good. You would do Dolly? Well, who knows Dolly has never been done? Did you know that? Really? I don't think Dolly has been done on Snatch, which

is crazy to me. I thought I thought, like on on one of the All Stars, like Dating Game ones or like the Cruise Ship ones around, I don't know, I don't think Dolly has been done and if we're wrong, the readers will tell us. But um, but yeah, anyway, I thought that was that was a some people on Twitter where like, have there ever been such high highs

and low lows on Snatch game? And I'm like, yeah, every single the thing that everyone forgets every season, and Josh Sharp says this all the time, Yes, everyone's it gets so hype for Snatch game every season in the lead up and then you get to snatch him and you're like, that was fine, Like it's it's not like no one's ever the only Snatch game. It is the only Snatch games that plural that have blown me away are all starts to and UK season UK season one, and I did have a lot of fun watching UK

season two. I thought it was really fun. I giggled throughout. I get at throughout. I feel stupid because I don't know most of those people. Whereas season one you had like Trump and Thatcher and you know they were easy to follow, like, oh my god, oh my god, The Vivians Trump is the best snatch game that's ever been I would say, hands down. But it's like I don't want to watch, like I'm not like I would never seek out The Vivians Trump. I would seek out and

watch for hours Bag of Chips doing Margaret Thatcher. Well, you know they have a web series which is uh Trump and Bacher on Wild Presents, and I watched it sometimes when I'm inebriated, and it does the trick. But when I think about Bag of Chips, is Thatcher post UK season one is that she's made it less fun by taking the red Eyes out, Like she's made it less month. Like I was obsessed with the fact that that brave and drink this this demon from Hell. I was like, that is so she was like she had

like hasn't drank blood yet today? Yeah? And same, Oh my god, Bag of Chips. I just love bagg of Chips. I love bagg of Chips too. I thought the Vivians Trump it did it for me because like something about a drag queen doing Trump like and I'm I'm sorry to say it, but I'm exhausted by every single fucking Trump. Like. Every time I see a Trump I'm like, like, I I just I'm so over it and he's such a joke and I whenever I watch that, I'm just like,

I can't do this. And then does see a drag queen do it, especially a British drag queen like nail it like that day It's the best. It's the best flat impression of him I've seen, and it just felt like it could be No, hold, that's the other word you've seen. Will Stevens is Trump. I think Will Stevens, Well, Stephen has the best. Oh yeah, he's got a good Trump.

I I he doesn't do Trump like professionally though, no I know, I know, I know, I know you um, but but Will Stephen has been able to pick up on some Trump cadences that no other Trump impressionists has and he like kind of only showcased it within the last year of his term. Anyway, Um, shout out to reader, straight reader, Will Stephen, we love and that we have to lift those icons up, straight man, the straight readers

up the Straight readers. We we see, we hear you, we feel you um before before we sorry, We're not We're no longer a clear podcast. We are saluting our straight before we get into the the ever more of it all. What let's just close the loop on one division really really quick. What did you think of the finale so that we can move on? And then if I get obsessed with the falcon in the winter Soldier,

I'll keep it to myself. Lovely lovely finale. I overall, I had really thought about the entire series, I guess as a whole, and I feel like none of it was the like Wanda, like having it be TV sitcom eras doesn't actually work for me, Like it is not fully explained by the previously on episode where she has flashbacks to like whatever Socovia or where she's like, oh, the reason it's TV eras is because she watched shows

with her parents, Like I don't know. I get that it's tied to her grief and that like her west View is like things that resolve the grief or that are like linked to the grief, But I think can set the premise is a lot of winding turns through some stuff and I kind of wish it was all which battles, which battles which battles. Starting from episode three on, I was like, this is what it should have been

the whole time. And I know, like budget wise, it couldn't have happened because they needed to sort of pour it all into like this crazy, crazy battle um. But that's my thought I loved. I mean, I really am into the Starlett Witch costume. I at the end of it, I think Catherine Han's gonna come back. I think like it's set up so that she has to go and find Katherine han Um maybe in Doctor Strange or after Doctor Strange. But I have my things about the show

that are that are interested. It's like her like walking off, like walking through Westview after like the hex disappears and having everyone stare at her and she's just like and then basically her and Monica are like they'll never understand, like women like are you know, basically they're like they'll never understand. It's like, honey, you us draw ruined these people's lives. What are you talking about? You're not the victim? He here um. I don't know. There was just but again,

and I think you brought this up. But it's like I have to remember that this is a show that's actually meant for children. Yeah, I think I think that's why I wasn't really reaching too far for like deeper meeting and the fact that it did explore grief, and also like I think it's better than any of these

things need to be. That's what I was saying, and I will say in watching all the old movies, which I'm doing right now, Like I just watched thor The Dark World today, this is so interested in one of the female characters in in in these Marvel movies in a way that I think is so different from I was actually talking to my expense about this, like old friend, old roommate, um, and he was sitting, yes, in the comics, like all these female characters are like flat as fuck,

and like you're like in the comments like wand does a monster and like you kind of understand that she's upset because of well the turns her life has taken. But now she's just like this monster who looks gorgeous in a fucking stunning outfit, and like she's a crazy

woman who likes a witch. And this is like exploring why um, a character that's established like that in the comics actually gets to that point, um really exploring the trauma because if you actually, if they hadn't done this series and like hadn't explored Wanda's past and or wanted to continue her as a character, like she would have kind of just existed as like a toy that these films used to like torture, you know what I mean, in order to move the plot forward to get her

to like places where she's so upset that she uses her power and she barely can control it. So I liked that it like um uh explored the concept of what this woman has been through and why she might want to create a soft place to land um and how she wants to feel that she deserves and has earned a happy life and then just like she's not faded to do that. So I thought that was really interesting. I do agree with you, Like there's plot holes galore.

I mean, like it's so much of it doesn't check out, Like when when spoiler alert, when Monica is in Evan Peters's house and she sees when she sees the head shot, it says Ralph Boner, And there was that whole thing where she's like your Ralph. It's like, well, if we're in the world of the of the Wanda fifty, like the sitcom land, that headshot would have changed to something that would have been in the sitcom land, Like you know what I mean, Like little things like that that

I'm probably looking too closely on. And that's why when I take a step away, I fucking loved watching it. I think Elizabeth Olson is amazing. I think she's she's actually one of my favorite actresses now after watching this, and she is Julia Roberts to you, she's the new Julia. I love her. I think she's really, really, really good. And I loved Paul Bettany and I thought they were amazing.

I thought that emotionally it really worked for me. By the finale, absolutely and pulp wise it worked for me. And I loved watching Katherine Han like be this cookie witch at the end and like cackle. And I loved watching Katherine Han Elizabeth Olson fight as witches in the sky. And when Elizabeth was when Elizabeth Elson became the Scarlet Witch, I thought it was stunning. And when she said I don't need you to tell me who I am, I was like, you better deliver the line you better deliver

the line. I I agree, I am with you completely. I just think some of the disc wore. I was talking about this with Julio and Julie was saying that like he also enjoyed it, like on like an entertainment level. But the discourse online is a little bit like, Okay, let's watch it because some people are like, this is what we do to women, and it's it's so refreshing to see that this is how we score, like we've ruined.

When it's like wait wait, wait, wait wait, that's I don't think that's the takeaway here, and like let's like there's like hundreds of years of culture and reading and plays and books and movies and stuff that like all so like touch on this a little bit better. And then some people mean and then some people been like this is what This is a perfect example of what what happens when white women put themselves at the center of it. It's like, all right, everyone, just like what

where is that coming from? What is that there? It's just like some like some Twitter discourse that like I I am like picking up on is like wait what like but what is it? I don't understand what it is? What do you mean, like, what is the critique that people have, what is the discourse about, like how it's an example of white women centering themselves that it's like you you ruin people's lives or oh, it's like like Wanda like just like literally making herself the center of

this like like universe. Whatever. I don't think, well, I'm agreeing with you. It's like, I don't think it runs that this is Naomi Camel to tire Banks. It's not. It's just it's not that deep. And so I just think we have to again reassess what we want to get out of a Disney Plus show, even if it's even if it's out of an even if it's an mc U property. It's like, we can this is just supposed to entertain us. Let's not look too closely at

the at the plot holes. Yeah, let's not even like consider what this means, what this is trying to say about society. Let's just it's a bonus that we have an amazing performance from Elizabeth Olson, and bonus that we have this great role for Catherine Han. Like, I think that's how we should think about this stuff going forward, I think, and honestly to its credit. It's to its credit that people took it so seriously. Sure it felt

like prestigious. Yeah. Yeah, from the beginning with them trying and and doing the different you know sitcom tropes and like doing the different shot like whatever it was from episodes episode, Um, I think it it It presented as extremely interesting and maybe like there was a lot going on, and then there was, but also what was going on was, you know, the sort of theme park movies that are the Marvel movies, which is fine, it's just like, don't

you can never get it twisted when you're watching these movies, Like No. What I liked about it is because in watching all these old movies, it's like they're great, like there are a lot of fun, but they are like commercial theme park movies, like you know what I mean, Like it's not inaccurate to describe them like that. This I liked because it felt like it was pushing it a little bit further. I like to explore one of

the female characters these things so rarely do. And um I also thought like if it was commercial theme park trash, trying to see what it would be like if they took a step towards our you know, what I mean. It gave people in the cast real opportunities to act, and um, you know, I thought it was I thought it was great. It's like Taylor going from lover to folklore evermore, hello, and what a transition. Well before we transition, should we save the because I really want to talk

about I care a lot. Okay, so so's so, then let's let's do it. And then and then what were you saying? It's connects to your I don't think it's honey, No, it doesn't. It doesn't, okay, talk about A care a lot. Then what did you feel? I thought it was garbage. I thought it was Did you like it now? Because I was thinking about this because as if you liked it, then this is a perfect symmetry between the promising young woman of it all. But I don't think, but did

you enjoy I care a lot? Um? I liked it more now, I didn't like it more than promising young woman. I thought I thought it said something fresher than promising young I disagree. I disagree. I think it's like truly like the only thing that it's it was trying to say something about like womanhood, but like through the lens of like I'm a girl boss, Like I true, like I was really, like truly put off by it. That's interesting. I didn't see it like that at all. I thought

it was talking about capitalism only. I thought it was talking about late stage capitalism only. I thought it was talking about the evils of people in power and people that are close to power. Only I didn't think it really had anything to do with the fact that she was a female character. Literally, I thought, like for for almost the same exact reasons as you, as you didn't like promising young women. Okay, but here's here's something we should clear up. You did not like this movie more

than I liked Promising young Woman at the time. Like over time, I've been like, yeah, maybe maybe it's like a tricky movie on like a writing level, and it's running all these screenplay awards in that kind of bumps. But I will say that, like I thought this was a tonal mess as well, Like it just like the category fraud first of all of this being like musical or comedy and for Rosmon to win over Maria Bakalova at the Golden Globes, I'm like, damn, like you felt

it was a drama. I didn't think it was a damn comedy. This to me felt like a pitch black comedy. I get, yes, I don't even think it was. I don't think I don't even think it was a dark comedy. If there were that, it was like set here. I just I get the people think that that's what this is. I think it was going for like Safty Brothers drag. It was. It was down to like the scoring, trying to be a Safty Brothers movie, and it really annoyed me.

And I thought, you're trying to get away with this being satirical, but you're trying to like put this under the wrapping of it being this like gritty, overly saturated color corrected Safty Brothers movie with all this like electro technos music under it, and like there's blood and core and all. It's like it just was such a chaotic mess of a movie. To me, I thought Rosamond was great.

I really elect the performances I thought were good. Um, I thought that I really didn't know if the movie was trying to make us root for that woman or not.

See I do not think the movie ever at any point asks us or wants us to be on her side, and I think if people think that that is on them and and I'm talking only stupid, No I'm not, I'm not, but but I also I also understand that like in framing her as the protagonists like and and also giving her like a romantic situation, and like you seeing anything about her that you can empathize with, our sympathize with that, I would be I would be where

you're at. My thing is I just I guess I looked at it from the very jump as like, oh, I hate this woman. We're supposed to hate this woman, sure, but you're right. It's like, but then we're invested in her because she has this like love, she is looking out for someone else's well being and like, I don't know, and because she's the lead of the movie, and you're kind of I think that we as people that you know, you know, we've all like we're all students of the

modern screenplay, all students of the modern film. Like we're all waiting for the point where it's like, oh, this is why she's this way, Whereas I think that that never came, and I liked that about it. It's just like this woman is evil. She is and this person exists, and this is based on something that happened, and this

could be happening everywhere. And I think that it was a comment on how little people care when it comes to to, you know, furthering their own self interest when it comes at the expense of other people's health and lives. What I will say is I completely agree with you about the tone being crazy. When Christmas Cina came in to argue in the in the court and he was wearing that suit, I was like, see this is where I feel like. Yeah. I was like, what are we

trying to accomplish her? If I'm the judge and he comes in looking like that, I'm like, you're not taking me seriously. You don't take yourself serious. What is this? You're wearing a pinstriped wool suit. No, and again with the music, You're right it it's funny that you bring up, um like the Safty Brothers of it all. Because someone did get in my d MS and was like, can you talk about the similarities between I Care a Lot and Uncut Gems? And I was like, yeah, I mean

there's there are similarities there. It's just down to the ending, down to you, right, And I did I did think

the ending went there. I guess I respect I Care a Lot and Promising Young Woman because they both went for it, you know what I mean like it, but I just felt like and no one, no one throw anything at me for saying this, But I felt like I Care a lot said something about one, whereas like Promising Young Woman's felt like a movie that was written in two thousand seventeen and came out and maybe it

took four years to make Sweetie. Yes, it just it just felt a little bit behind that conversation and until it did something really bold at the end, like I don't know, we've talked about I know, I see what you're saying, and I don't think that warrants anyone throwing anything at you. I just think I was really put off. Well I think that's the point. That's I think that's the point, you know, I know, I know, I know, I know, but it's like I was even put off

by Rosen and pigs acceptance speech. I was like, I know, it seems like it seems like Hollywood talking about this in and of itself is a way of them not getting it exactly. And I'm like, you're you guys think you accomplished something by making a movie that like leaves the viewer feeling empty, And I don't think that's like

an actual accomplishment, you know what I'm saying. There was an interview she did and she was like, I just thought she was the most fascinating character from when I flip page to page, I just could not stop watching her. I couldn't. I just so amazing. And I was like, yeah, but you're what you should be saying is I thought she was the most psychotically evil for whatever, and I had play fascinating. I was like, there's something about this.

I'm not honest, that's wrong. And what I appreciate about it maybe is that it's like a movie where the protagonist is a woman that you that is really unlikable, who is really unlikable. But the way that it tries to like thread this needle, I think very like intentionally is to make you invested in her like outcome, you know, like you're spoke us to feel something about her getting spoiler alert, like we're spoiling murder but murdered in the end.

And I don't know that, like you come away from the movie like I think it's more impactful that Carrie Mulligan's character gets murdered and Promising a Woman that right, So I'm just thinking, like, I don't know, Promising Young Woman is a better movie than I care a lot. Let's just say that. I just think in terms in terms of like what I left walking away with. I don't know this this movie made me think about something I hadn't thought about as much. That's that's fair, that's fair.

I think this is a wonderful conversation. Well, and I will say this anytime. The villain in the movie is Peter Dinkledge, I do roll my fucking eyes. It's like it's like Christoph Walts being in a movie. I'm like, girl, we have seen this a million times, Like can we see like Peter Dinklage play someone that's not like I Just once he came on, I was like, oh, this is like this is like a level of camp now.

And then it's sort of the movie sort of was a little bit like you're supposed to be impressed now by how evil Like they keep one upping each other with how bad they are. Even Diane Weeks just like gets involved in it, and I'm just like, I'm like, oh, this is a movie that is about the darkest, darkest, darkest minds in society, who are the movers and shakers

of society. And there was a little bit about it that was like, you know, the plot takes some big fucking swings, like and I again, I appreciate a movie that goes there. But I was like, am I supposed to be impressed? Like? Am I rooting for? I didn't feel the girl boss thing. But whenever Peter Dinklage comes in and is like a badass, I do think there's a little bit of like, look at this guy. Go you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyways,

I mean, but we love seeing Diane West. Love seeing Diane we I thought Diane West was great. She just kind of she's kind of the best part of it. She was the best part of me when she when she when she says, have at it you and Crock of Seaword. No, she said you Croc of Seaword, crowd, have at it you Croc of Seaword. Oh man, all right, So the time has officially come. Um it has been

three months sometime now. Three months. Wow, that's crazy. Since Evermore was released and Bowen and I famously were a little bit um stressed about it because we had just been sort of inundating ourselves. We were just embarking on the twelve Days of Culture. That was a really stressful time. Yeah, we we just put were our plates were to fall. I have the time to really cover it and the

way that we did Folklore on Taylor Taylor. Yes, and I mean someone, um, someone on Vulture recently brought up the Taylor Taylor episode as a way of just like a fun way to like just sort of you know, dip your toe into the world of Taylor Taylor. Absolutely, this episode should be swift swift, swift swift. That that only makes because there in listening to this album, I feel she well, there's a lot of themes here that it actually it feels like a much more complete album

than I thought. Um, it really is different from Folklore. I feel like evermore like there's she is. Really Infidelity is a huge thing for her. Have you noticed this? Infidelity is a huge thing for her. Grief is a huge thing for her in this nostalgia obviously salgia like person like you know, family history and like the way things age like for her, had like a song called Ivy and Willow and the imagery is very focused, but I think the breadth musically is wider and just as

deep as it was on Folklore. But folklore to me, and I love folklore, and I think I actually prefer folklore for evermore. Um, but Folklore to me felt more because she had to be so impactful with this new turnover. Um it was a more focus sound with a really deep, like, um, you know, lyrical sort of thing. But this feels like she's broad in the scope, but it's just as deep as it was. It feels like it feels like Red. It feels like Red more than a lot of her

recent albums have. Well what I was picking up on throughout this entire and listening to the album again and like taking notes through it and like really trying to like soak into it. It doesn't feel personal until the end,

and then it's very personal. Like you had an interesting theory, I said, go ahead, Well, I don't think it gets really personal at all until Like the thing with Folklore is it was so like a modern myth, you know what I mean, Like she she wasn't writing as herself and a lot of it or it didn't feel like she was she was taking on characters and everything, and

with this album, I thought that was also true. And it was not until Long Story Short, which is um deep into the album that I felt like she was really talking as Taylor herself, or she was because that we'll get to that song, but because I think it's really interesting. I think it's Taylor talking to Taylor, and I think it's very interesting. The song sounds like Taylor to me. It's the populist song that's across the two

all of us. So I think that might have something to do with the fact that like it's She literally has a line that is let me read the line. I wrote it down because I thought it was so interesting. It was it was past me. I want to tell you not to get lost in these petty things. Your nemeses will defeat themselves before you even get a chance to swing. So it's Taylor talking to Taylor, and she's saying, we know we have an impulse to be Taylor, but

get back to Taylor. You will always be Taylor. She's trying to tell herself get back to Taylor, and I just thought, yeah, I wrote, just feels like this is Taylor talking about taylor most confessional song here because everything

else just felt non specific to her. And I think that sort of you know, reputation ish sound that's in the production of Long Story Short is there on purpose because it feels like and after that, you know, we have Marjorie, which is obviously a very personal about her own life, and then Closure, which is about Kim Kardashian. And I actually think I don't think it is about Kim, but it is. It is. It's literally I think it's about Calvin. I don't. I don't think you think Kim

Kardashian wrote Taylor a letter. You think it's about Calvin Harriss. I don't think she think Kim Kardashian would write a letter to anybody, much less Taylor Swift. And that's not that's not a dig on her intelligence. I'm saying, like, Kim Kardashian doesn't write letters to people. Um, I heard

that Kim Kardashian. Maybe it wasn't a letter. Maybe that was Taylor sort of being Taylor and like kicking her feet through the sand and being like it would be cool if it was a letter in the imagery at least, like maybe it was an email. Maybe it was a

fucking text. I don't know how Kim Kardashian does things, um, but I heard that she did reach out to her once she realized her marriage with Kanye West was done and apologized for the that she behaved with the I forget who told me this, but I think this is like a thing like I think closure is you are an inside pretty specifically about like how Kim Kardashian reached out to her to sort of apologize and make amends, and she was like, I'm not responding to this. I

didn't need this. This is more for you than it is for me. But I think in writing the song she has, she's like sort of caved into her worst interests because you clearly did want to address it. Because the song is here, you can't. She can't help but address it because she knows that like that's a little bit of Taylor seeping through the Taylor will she will

never be able to That's what I'm saying. So it's so funny on long story short, where she as Taylor is saying to Taylor, don't be Taylor, and then on Closure, Taylor is back, and those are the two characters people can talk about, like Dorothea and whoever to them season is about. But the two characters here are yet again Taylor and Taylor or as or ms Swift and Mrs Swift. I think I don't think there was that duality on Folklore. The duality is present in Evermore. Yeah, I think I

would agree. I think that I think that Evermore has more Taylor than Folklore does. And I think it's so that is so true because we have this thing that happens at the end of the album when she literally dips into being personal and then she really should have ended the album with Marjorie from me because closure. We didn't need it. She didn't need to do it. We didn't need it. I don't know, I don't need any more. Kim Kardashian Kanye West narrative with Taylor Swift. I would

very much like to remove myself from this narrative. Oh my god, girl, I that was artful, by the way. I want I want to ask you, should we talk about this whole Netflix tweet from last week? I wanted to. I want to talk about it because I think it's I think it's Taylor. I was gonna say it's Taylor, say it's Taylor, and I'm so well, I'm saying, like, any time Taylor, no, this is a Taylor Swift as a public figure, will always be Taylor. Her own reckoning,

with her own experience will always be Taylor. Anytime she's writing music and actually expressing through her art in this like n adulterated way that has nothing to do with her public life, it is Taylor. I'm not saying that she's not allowed to like cross pollenate those two identities or those two like parts of herself, because but we are.

But I am saying that, like that is a really interesting split in her personhood because she is an incredible artist, as we all know, and she's also someone who has like so carefully curated and cultivated this persona, this public person and so does that make sense? It makes perfect sense.

I mean, I just think she that's so because because because that tweet, it was like I was taken all the way back to oh my god, I wasn't we're having this conversation again, literally, like which just not to say that like that that that whole joke is fucked up and stupid, but I'm saying that's like Taylor, you would imagine that she's and this is not like putting the onus on her to like move on, move past this, but you would imagine that she is like I would

imagine her as a public figure who has been whose dating life has been talked about for so so so long, that she would be like, fuck it, who cares? Let them talk about it. But that's the thing she is not able to. Like. That's why I'm so positive that closure is about Kim Kardashian, because she actually is not

the type of girl that's moved past this stuff. She's actually you know, I don't know vindictive is the right word, but like she is the kind of person like and it's all over for folklore, how angry she is at the people that have done her wrong. How and and she is justified. But with this, this was Taylor because she did not need to tweet this, and and she can use her social media however she wants. But I just think it's the most innocuous joke in the world.

It's been told a million times. No one cares, No one thinks less of Taylor Swift when they hear a joke like this, which is, oh, you go through men like Taylor Swift goes through guys whatever, like just like a reference to the fact that she like had a lot of boyfriends for a while that the public was

picking up on. And and look, is it. Is it misogynist? Sure, because we we look at her and we sort of like, you know, rake her across the coals for her relationship struggles, and we don't do it to guys, like and that's been said a million times. But my problem is, like it's it's always gonna be punching down with her, like she's the biggest musician in the world. The show is about like a mixed race, single mom and her daughter, like it's it's women created it, women wrote it. Like

no one's out to get you with this, dude. I have an interesting thing to bring up contextually, which is, do you think she saw the Brittany dock and was like, they're doing that to me. I have no idea, But she also should know that her story is completely different from of course, so I don't think so. I just thought it was it was a little ridiculous and sad that she felt the need to go after this show.

I think there is something to be said about her maybe drawing some parallels and thinking I have had my sexuality like scrutinized, I've had my dating life scrutinized. This is violence and I have to like speak out against this. I just think this was an interesting moment and an interesting reaction to that moment, where like I did not know about this fucking show and neither she helped him

out in a huge way. Maybe that's also part of it, well, that there are people online who are like, this is it? This is like this is like guerrilla marketing where promoting this Netflix show because she is she has a relationship with Netflix. Whatever. I actually think that's what it is really interesting and the way she but she also did

call out Netflix in the tweet. She did like SpongeBob like caps lowercase caps, lewercase, I'm like, there's too much going on here, Like she you could tell this was like a very reactionary thing and like she was upset, and like that makes total sense. You think that like this is this is this is a I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. It's it's it's a trigger. It's clearly a clearly a trigger. She couldn't believe the

joke was still happening. Like, you know, she went through a lot of grief because of you know, content related to her relationships. I just thought by tweeting the this, you actually brought so much more attention to that. UM. Again, she can use her social media however she wants. If I was her, I wouldn't have made an issue of this. But also, like, I don't know how much it upset her. Clearly it really upsets her UM. But you know, luckily

she's got all the fucking talent in the world. Talk about the way that she feels like and I think that this album, like evermore. I think it's really so much better than the first few times I let myself listen to it. I don't think it's perfect because there's just there. There are three songs I would just cut um, which is kind of my issue with almost everything anyone puts out. Now let's go through track by track, So we start with Willow Girl. This to me said first

single in a way that Cardigan never could. Willow has Cardigans. And it's like with albums like this that are so like works of art capital W capital A. I understand that they don't feel the need to give you a first single, but it is just kind of nice to feel like, oh, I could definitely hear this on the radio, and then when I do hear it on the radio, I feel like it fits there. And Willow to me is like a great first single and fills that purpose as well as being a great song on its own right,

which I can't say that about Card Again. I don't. I can't say that about Card Again. Willow is the perfect representative of this album and it it would play on radio in a way that like you'd be like, yes, of course. And the dancing which al Iray remix Oh Please she was getting, which before Whichie came to the culture in a big way again with Miss Harkness, and I will say when I heard her say wreck my plans, that's my man, I said, you might hear me saying

that during sexual intercourse. I'm gonna have to tell a man, who's you know, getting getting me plowed to wreck my plans. You might catch me saying to a man life was a willow and it bent right to your wind while he is analingusing me, Oh my god, you might be hearing me say that's my man right after I bleep hold on, hold on one more. You might catch me saying I'm like the water when you're ship rolled in that night to a man. The more that you say as he is tugging me and my balls, or that

you say, the less. I really love this song, but I feel the album gets better when we go one to Try too because Champagne problems. You know, I love this is my favorite type of tailor, and I feel, you know what I think is a good throwback for this type of song, back to December, like her being like contrite contemplato, yes, just being like I'm not going to give myself any credit here, like I hurt someone, it didn't work out, and I you will be so

much better off without me in your life. Romantically. I love it. She doesn't really have that many of this song. Yeah, it's a lot of like this guy, but this is not like that, which is which is fine, Like if that's her ratio, then that's her ratio. But I do I think that's a really really good apt comparison. Let's move on. Yeah, the protagonist does not try to absolve herself, and I don't know if this is her here an

autobiography song, but it was beautiful. She said she said to someone go find someone who's going to appreciate you and not leave you standing. Okay, the only the person who did it best with autobiography was actually Simpson. Oh she the autobiography was the best autobiography. And that's actually a little culture number sixty at Simpson autobiography was the best autobiography. Yeah, um, what do you feel about gold Rush? Gold Rush? I maybe I don't get it. Everyone seems

to really love it. It took me so many times to get it. The first time I was listening to it, I was like, the melodic shift, it's just not a straightforward pop melody, like it's sort of it's sort of tricky stating Yeah, I like that, And I I didn't get that at first, and I was just like I was nervous when when that when when the song was happening, and I wasn't getting it because I was like, oh, no,

is this album gonna be super like experimental? Like am I not going to get any straight forward like pop jam on it? And I think it exists in a really sweet spot between those two, like it does something different, but it still is a bop like and I will say the song really came to my came to life for me when I saw Benito Skinner dancing to it in the in the fields, perfect and just I mean he was doing every single move in the book and he really made you realize, like you can fucking wrack

the dance Florida. This song was it think. I think he posted that and he said, like when people say, like you can't dance to evermore and then he proved us all wrong. He prowd us all wrong. Also, like when you listen to the lyrics, like it's about like it's about your crush being out of your league and it's about thinking that. And I think that's kind of like like I don't want the gold Rush, Like I I am not of the energy to compete with all

these girls. You are so perfect and it's so it's so kind of like it's very illustrative, and I feel like, um, the whole gold Rush imagery and like the whole like golden child of it all. Like this show. The song like glows gold in a in a way that the metaphor is strong, very strong, very deeply that literally literary queen. Now, this next song to the damn Season made me feel like maybe Taylor listens to Lost Culture, do you think this is lost. I think tis the damn Season is

lost coach language. I think it's like Adie Bryant language. Okay, I think this is like something our friend miss Adie Bryant would say. But you don't. She would say that tis the damn season. She'd be like, tis the damn season. I could hear her say it right now, tis the damn season. Um well, I think it's a great song. This, This is one of the This is the first line in the album where I was like, Taylor's here right in one another line Taylor or Taylor Taylor, Taylor, Taylor,

Taylor is is here. Throughout the album, Taylor poked her head in with this line the so called friends who write books about me if I ever made it like, I just thought that was so Taylor. This is Dorothea. I know, but that I'm just saying. Taylor definitely wrote that line like Taylor was sitting there like with her tea and her eyes went black. And Taylor wrote that

one line and Taylor, she's sucking puzz um. So but this, yes, this is Dorothea is the narrator of the song, and Doug says a low vocal keeper she's in the basement on this whole album though, yeah, she really is. Doug did Dog just listen to this one song and was like, Okay, hold on, well, I do think we need to talk to We need to bring Doug in at the end of this. I really wanted to get I really want to see what Doug thinks that ever I think it was. It's it's it's it's just like we we We'll be

coming in, He'll be coming in. But I feel like this is a good song. It's a Christmas song, and I think it's a good song for anyone who knows what it's like to keep coming back to that one man. Anyone keeps coming back to that one man. I know my sister bo and keeps going back to that one man. He doesn't have to go to Tupelo to get him, but he goes back. I'm trying to pull myself away. We all know what it's like to not be able to pull ourselves away from the dick. Okay, And that's

what's his damn season is about it. This girl, young Dorothea, she goes home to her hometown and she wants the dick ha ha and and she gets it. Each and every time. Should move on to the track five of this album, The big track five Tolerated one of the only songs on my first listen to this album where I was like, Yes, tolerated. This is an incredible song about not feeling validated or loved back by a partner.

And you know the imagery I'm gonna paint a portrait of you with my finest colors, and also that that's sort of like eighteen hundreds of it all. And also to know that she uses the words fancy shit, I love it. This is two thousand twenty one Taylor writing a timeless classic about unrequited love, even when you're in a relationship waiting for your man to come home and he don't give a shit about you. Yeah, there was another song I love about this. I'm in the penthouse

half naked. Yes, I cook this hell you jealous has what Tolerated wants? Sorry about it? Sorry, even if even for a track five a Beyonce song I did you Wish the June me. You can feel this feeling I never broke one promise and the knowing you're not honest. Now you got me, Helena, That's because I'm just go bo do it. He doesn't. He doesn't know Beyonce lyrics. Okay, I don't. Beyonce Self Titled was a while ago. You know that it is the classic? Okay, mother, wow was

that two December? I skept it. But Jealous isn't my was one of my skips, and I'm sorry to say what, Oh my god, Jealous is my favorite on the album. No, I was here for fucking blow for the typical like run of the Millyeah, you are a diamond doesn't like groundbreaking, So you really broke ground with that one Queen and a half. You really broke ground with that one queen and a half. That's really good. That's that's almost as good as croc crocacy word. Crocacy word. I fucking love.

I wish I could use that. We probably can. No, No, so tolerated. We we'll cut, We'll cut, no cutting, no cutting ever, all right. I also thought that intolerated. It's kind of cool how her voice gets stronger as the song goes. Did you notice that? I did notice that? And that's yeah. I like that too, And I think

that's such a beautiful artistic choice. I don't really have anything to add you came with the nuts, we'll tolerate it's well, I just let's probably because I knew we were doing this and I thought it should we should at least put our academic drag on. Sure. Sure, I just I just saved it for specific songs. Anyway, I mean, what do you think about I think it did it good? I just can't. Um, I really this was a song that I really disliked it on the first lesson, but

over time has really grown on me. I'm gonna tell you why you hate it after after you finish your thought, finish your thought, and then I'll tell you why you're because because I compared to Goodbye or all No, that's like, no, I really liked that. I just in terms of like a different kind of storytelling song, like the What's what drives? It is different from a lot of other Taylor songs, um in in in terms of the storytelling engine. But um,

why do you think I hate it? You have said you're maxed out on true crime and this is inspired by true crime. This is this song is literally written because Taylor loves true crime, and I think that's why you don't like it. And I have to say, I really liked it the first time I listened to it because I was like, oh, that's really different and I recognize this, and now in listening to it again, I

think it's just like it's a great hook. It's like a well executed, like simple type of country rock pop song. But I wonder if we've heard this song a million times and that's why it kind of feels like and we've maybe heard it just done in a way that didn't feel as overstuffed as this one is, Like Goodbye Earl, Like that's like a very clear narrative. The narrative is clear, but like the bridge is like all of a sudden,

there's a million things happening. Yeah you have, she's only trying to track her narrative here, and like it does check out, but it's it's stuffed. It's well, she's always been worthy. Like she and I have that in common where we use where we're just very wordy and it kind of works too against us a lot of times

we're pretty what are you talking about? I think this was like I feel like that and and and it sounds like before he cheats, but it's it's all that I mean, Like I said, take this song give me two Black Cadillacs any day. Like you know that Caronderwood song that's a really good one. I just think, like I've heard her vocals great on this, Like I think it's that I think he did. I just think she she delivers it really well, and I think it ends

up being very satisfying, especially the last. But um, I think it just it's if I'm judging it, like compared to other songs that are like this, I don't think it's better or worse. I just think it's this. It doesn't offer anything new to the conversation. It just feels like Taylor finally did her version of this, which is cool. I just don't know if it's like it actually wasn't but not before. Actually, happiness is one of my favorites.

I love happiness. Love happiness so much, the sitting in every emotion that this song has, like the the way, the way that this song is able to get across pretty much all the emotions that you feel when a relationship ends, like it mentions like the shock of it, the disbelief, the vindictiveness, the fact that like it becomes about things, the memories, the nostalgia of it, the eventual like understanding of why things happen, the need for the other person to validate the fact that you were not

just a bad thing in their life. That's something that I really identified with. I remember, like when when we did our acid trip, you cried, You cried, I did cry, and I realized. I remember, I realized I had a big realization about my first relationship ending. It was like I just wanted him too, You wanted him to not

think you were that you were a bad person. It's not even about again being absolved though, it's it's more like it's it was more like I just want to know that you'll always care, you know what I mean, Like like I hope that because our relationship didn't ended, that it's not this thing of like we feel like because the narrative of breakups is what it is, like we can't still care about each other and look back on it as a fond thing. Like there is happiness

after you. There was happiness because of you, There was happiness because of me. There will be happiness after me. Like that that's such an important thing when a relationship ends. I think if you can get there, like it's something that that's really how you get closure on a relationship. And I think that this song, like it really gets that really beautifully illustrates that. Yeah, so this is Taylor playing a boy again and I just want to say, we love this song. Oh I just I'm sorry to

compare it to Betty Betty. No many have, but Betty Betty is I think one of my favorite favorite Taylor songs ever. And Dorothea is very good, totally different, going for a totally different thing. But I just think Betty is something that like swells at the end and it's so satisfying. Dorothy is a nice vibe throughout. I don't know that it really grows or like dynamically changes from like the beginning, but I think it's a lovely song. Yeah,

I think it's a lovely song. I think Dorothea is not trying to be the star, you know what I mean. Dorothya is not trying to be She's not trying to

take any space. Like That's something I do like about Taylor in this new era is like it feels like she's and I of course love whenever every song is a hit on an album, Like That's why I love nine, like because the majority of it are huge smashes, but like it feels like she on these albums are like No, this song is like a more simple thing about It's a simple guy who lives in a simple town and he wishes that this girl who went off to become a TV star, um Dorothea, would come home and live

a simpler life with him, because he knows that she doesn't need all of that a lovely so like such a lovely narrative and I think it's really sweet and cute and um it wasn't one of my favorites when I first started, because I think it's not trying to be the star. But now that I can listen to it as as a part of a whole, I I do really like it a lot. And there is something too Dorothy that is cute. There's a little tailor in there. Let's move on. I think this is a cut for you.

This is a cut from We Now Get to Coney Allen, which is a huge cut from me because I don't need this, like Retrade on these themes, I feel like it's the ninth spot on an album. Is a tough spot to put a song that like melodically, storyline wise, like thematically, like Justine says, a whole bunch of the things that we've been hearing, like these themes have been throughout the whole album already. We don't need Coney Island. And I also, like controversial opinion, I don't need any

male feature on a Taylor album. I don't want to hear a man's voice and Charon caught shaking your goddamn right. I think Endgame would have been better if it was just Taylor. I think Future has to introduce us to the world that is this is a hip hop song. Sure, and then you have Taylor come in, And it would have been great if she had two verses instead of just one, because her verse did end up being the best. Let me take it back. I don't need any I don't need I don't need the National and I don't

need Bony their on these albums. Like I just I get that they're huge parts of making them. I just personally, whenever their male voice is cut in, like maybe it's there very specific baritone sound, I'm just like, no, no, no, Like stop bringing me back down to earth. I want to be up in the sky with Taylor is taking me out of it. Yeah, yeah, I just don't. I

don't need it. I don't need it. Do You also feel like it's not even specific to Coney Island, which I know sounds down, but it's like if she's she's trying to listen all these images of like, oh, all the times we spent on Coney Island, but it's not even like I don't even think she doesn't bring up to Nathan's. She doesn't bring up ski ball at all. She never talks about riding the cyclone. She never talks about taking the damn shuttle bus into it, honey, or

the ferry. She never talks about taking the f train all the way down. She certainly doesn't because you know, she wrote in a black Car, Honey, it's about class. At the end of the day, this song is about class and it's disgusting. And she obviously doesn't know Coney Island, not in the way that my girl Beyonce does, who famously shot the video in Coney Island. It's actually a

retal culture number two. Beyonce shot Land really culture. So we're not we're not going to compare Beyonce to Taylor anymore. It's too conye of us. What's keep going? I'm gonna let you finish. But I've used one of my herod songs on the album. I think this is one of her best songs period period, and that's on period, and that's on period. The like lyrically it's like, oh my god, what what did you just do? That's incredible? Yeah, the ivy growing all over your stone house, girl, you are

not able to help these feelings. They will cover you. And I love this again this infidelity thing, Like, notice this is attract ten and elicit Affairs is attract ten. So I'm wondering if there's something there because there's the discussion and um sort of because there's sort of similar sounding to elicit affairs. She's the other woman and in in Ivy she is the person who is doing the cheating, So it's it's I mean, I guess it's a nice

and version too. I just think but I just even if you take the infidelity out of it, I just think this is a beautiful love song, and I think I think I think she kind of wants to make it more about how this is like and all consuming love and that the asterisk on him is that she's already married or that she's already you know her hand has been promised to another. Yeah, she loves Oh goddamn my pain fits in the palm of your freezing hand taking mind, but it's been promised to another. Yeah, she's

such a good writer. I mean, like she loves to be in a position of you know this is this is very bridget in this song. But to me, this is just like she loves to be like emotionally coersative. I feel, yes, I can. I also say, I guess this is technically a verse like the just just going straight from and now I'm covered in clover blooms in the field spring. I'm just like that is such a musically like, oh I love that, Like that's I just think this is such a well produced song on top

of being one of her best written songs. Lyrically, I think this is fantastic. It feels like this song Ivy is like the reason why we have Flora, you know what I mean, Like, if she's gonna do a project like this, like the reason that that's so exciting is because we can get something like Ivy out of it. Right. Similarly, I would say for the next song, Cowboy like Me is also I love that song. Yes, I love that song, Yeah, like Me got you a grew And also here's what

I love about Cowboy like Me. I wrote the word obsessed. I'm actually unclear at the end of it if like these two people that have like I get the sense that like they've met their match their scammers and they've met their matching each other. And I'm actually and I

love this about the song. I'm unclear at the end of the song whether or not Taylor is writing up from the perspective of having just been conned by this guy as well, or that she knows that she's going to can him, because she says, I'm never gonna love again. I'm never gonna love again. And I feel like you can look at it a cup different ways, like I'm never gonna love again because I found the love of

my life. It's you might equal or I'm never gonna love again because what we're not hearing is all of this led to me getting con the way I've did it too many other Getaway car Very, Getaway car Very that and I don't know, I just I love that about it and I love that I love like the slower pace of this what would you call this song? It's I don't know. It's just like it sounds like a national song. It sounds like the piano you get guitar. Yeah,

it's just like a bluesy Doug says, bluesy. Yeah, thank you, Doug. I love Cowboy like me really really wonderful, wonderful love me. So our our next one is long story short, and we did talk about this one, but this is this

is Taylor being like Taylor. We know Taylor exists inside of us, and I feel that up until this point in the album feels like the most it feels like the most old Taylor, and that it's like her talking to herself and her fans, being like, here is an assessment of the stuff that we all know I went through. In that way, it was throwback you to me. Yeah yeah, I love that line past me. I want to tell you not to get loved in those petty things. Love that love that girl, you know you know that girl.

And then we have Marjorie lovely song, lovely song. I hope to one day write a tribute to my grandmother. In this way, it made me feel sad. I mean, and this obviously is the point, but it does really, I mean, she has that line where she says, um, I should have asked you questions. I should have asked

you how to be? That's so, and she does this is enormous, like she's writing down in her Yeah right, it's it's almost like she's writing down in the song like what she remembers everything she remembers her grandma told her like, um, never be sock and you know what I mean, you forget to be clever, never be so clever, you forget to be kind. And it's just like you get that. She takes all these things to heart now

and wishes she had had more time, and that is emotional. Um, you know I've left both my grandparents and are all my grandparents both my grandmother's and um, you know those are relationships that are finite, very sad. And also you hear Marjorie Finlay's vocals sampled in the song, right, those like operatic sounds. That's Taylor's actual grandmother. She found she found she found like she found the recordings of sampled him in there. So she's she's on the album. I'm

actually this sounds weird. It's it surprises me that she has not talked about um, Marjorie up until this her ninth album. She normally has like really dug into her personal history since the beginning of her career, and I'm just like, I can't. It's so surprising that it's taken this long to talk about someone who clearly means how much she had inspired like your musicality. Yeah, I was surprised to not know about her either. Yeah, but maybe

maybe she was like waiting for the right thing. I mean, I think this is thing. This is a beautiful, as beautiful of attribute as you can, right, so um that kind of relative of your grandmother, Like, I think this is something that she probably waited a long time to do, and she wanted to do it right. Yeah, it's really pretty and she sounds great. And we should also say Taylor's vocals sound great on the entire album and I can't wait for Fearless Taylor's version Love Story. She sounds

fucking amazing. She sounds good, so mature, but still she's still going for like the brightness of like two eight when that an album came out, Like, she's still like she knows exactly what to do vocally, and like, even though her voice has matured so so much, tones have changed. I think she's still able to like have the right intention with what she's trying to do um in each

different song. Okay, let's move on to closure. Yeah, I don't need closure because I feel like she on fortunately sort of leaned into a bad instinct of hers, which is to sort of prolonged a narrative by saying you've completed a narrative, and I just don't need it. I just don't need it. This is like a clean This is like a You don't think this is like a cleaner. No, I do not think this is like a clean I

think clean is about something completely different. I think. And also if in a world where we have clean and we think they're about the same thing, we certainly don't. They're not. I'm not saying they're about They're not about this. I'm not saying they're about the same. No, it doesn't. I just feel like it feels tacked on to me, especially when you have Marjorie, which to me is such a beautiful closer, because I would also cut evermore the next song, and again, I just I just don't need it.

You just hate that it Bonivar is on it. I don't hate that Bonavara is on it. I just I feel the album reached a natural conclusion with Marjorie and everything else after that does it feels like a d heightened and I don't need that. I don't need like a cool down after Marjorie. I feel like that was the beautiful way to end the album and the and the two albums. Really yeah, exactly. And I feel like, you know, we know she'd she'd be releasing bonus tracks,

so like, have these b bonus tracks. Then I actually really liked Right Where You Left Me, which is one of her bonus tracks on this one really good, really really good. Um, I haven't listened to it enough to really form like a solid opinion on it, neither of I but it's it's it's, it's, it's, it's it's a little it jumps out a little bit more than the other tracks, like it requires less of a close listen. We were talking ver fron Patrick. It's his birthday, by

the way, Happy birthday house. He was telling us that he loves ever more and more than folks like he does many do. I'm so curious about that. I feel like folklore like I also feel this this way to a certain extent, where with the impact of Folklore coming out and being and it being fully out of nowhere and it being such a shift for Taylor. The impact of that can never be matched by the Evermore moment. And so it's so hard to listen to Evermore and not have it feel like Sides. I know, I know

they're different things. I know that she had different approaches to them as albums. I just think it feels like an addendum. Still, here's what I would throw out there. If Evermore had come out first and then Folklore came out, would you feel the same way about Folklore? Would you feel that Folklore's content felt like Okay, I will say, giving it more of a chance to feel like two different projects, I think Folklore is stronger. Oh wait, what

you're asking me what? I think that Folklore sounded like B sides too, Evermore. That's what I'm saying, because like no, I think Folks the superior album. Yes, right, And so I was gonna say that, Like I think if it was reversed, I think if Evermore had come out first, we would have been fucking thrilled. But then Folklore on its own, I think just stands out a little bit more. Like I think once we have time to really ruminate.

I think it's gonna it's gonna become clear that Folklore is the one, and I'm happy that happen more and of course count Evermore as like as valid an album as any of her other ones. But and there are traps on Evermore that I'm like, please like replaced, Not that this is how it would work, but like, please replace some Folklore tracks. I mean, I made my my my Folkmore playlist famously, but now I'd have to change the names as I have. I have new favorites, some

new some new favorites. She was she was. People were saying that Evermore is the more experimental album in terms of songwriting and production. I think Folklore felt more like chamber poppy, like something that she earnestly hadn't done, like between mirror Ball and August and Betty and like Pete.

I'm just like it was such it was such an elevation in her songwriting that I was like, this is incredible, and I still think when you compare it side by side to folk to Evermore, it still beats it out. I do think with Ivy Ivy is this was one of those songs to me that I'm like you are because I know that Taylor, which has been obsessed with Johny Mitchell her entire life, and I think with Red she was kind of like trying to write her own

version of Blue at the time. Um, but Ivy was her fucking nailing it with like the Joni Mitchell like Ladies of the Canyon drag like you know, like Courton Spark like whatever. Like I was like, you did it, like you did what you set out to do in some way, not from the beginning, not that like this was her life's work to like right and produce like a Joni Mitchell standing song, but to have like the influence so cleanly translate to a song that is you,

Taylor Swift is amazing. So I just think that like they're they're bright spots and evermore that I still think are outshined by the overall like super nova moment that folklore still is to me. I think folklore is incredible, that it's like I still think that it's like such an amazing thing that it happened. I would agree. Let's bring Doug in for his quick thoughts. Do come come and Doug and Doug, did you listen to the um in preparation. It feels like you did. It feels like

you and you had some comments. Did you fit listen to folklore as well? Doug come in now, so what's your what's your sort of take? I did listen to Evermore in pre but not folklore. No, okay, all right, that's fine, And I don't know that much. So I was like, you know, I'm just gonna blast through it and see what see what happens. And I actually agreed with you guys a lot on your feelings. And I just feel I like t Happiness the best. Yeah, I

think it's really good. She kind of broke her I don't know if she's done this for a long time or but I always felt like she falls into this rhythm a lot her natural like uh, and I felt Happiness really broke from that, and so did Cowboy. Yeah, that's that's a great observation. Well literally, it's like we're able to make fun of Taylor because it is so like Gamma. She just have her like thing that she does, Like she is very tailored. There's a lot of size

in the music and everything. But um, I think what you're saying is is totally that rings true for me because those songs felt like a different pace for her, not just like in terms of pace of the music obviously, but in terms of like emotionally, like like on Happiness when she's like you haven't met the new me? Yeah, I just felt like there's some something going on here that feels like a progression. And for you to not really even know that much about her and pick up

on that is I think interesting. It was a fun exercise for me anyway. I was like, yeah, I'm just gonna listen, Like I would have never put it on had it not been for you. Guys. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna put it on. Let's hear it. That's so emotional. That's so much so emotional. You should listen to folklore too.

I'm really curious to see what you There's a lot of it, Like it sounds like there's a lot of like sounds that sound like magnet magnetic fields, or like Jesus and Mary Chane, like that era of music that I think you would really like if you like that kind of stuff. Alright, girls, see you see a girl. But Doug, well, that was Doug, and we love to always check in with Doug and see what he feels.

But remember he's he worked with Celendian in the nineties and said he didn't know who she was when they were in the recording booth together, So understand that shameful ultimately, But I think it might be time for I don't think so honey. I think it might be time for I don't think so honey. So I don't think so honey. Is the sixties second segment that we do um to rail against something in pop culture that we hate. I

I think I have one off the dome. Okay, girl, honey, two domes for you, because I I'm about to do one off the dome too. But this is I don't think so honey. Time starts now. I don't think so honey. People only realizing Oprah is a quote unquote good interview now that she sat down with Megan Markle. I couldn't believe when I went on Twitter and was searching before we got on here the Megan Markel Oprah interview, and people were like, Wow, Oprah is a really good interviewer.

Are you fucking kidding me? Literally? Where have you been forever? And now I'm really mad at the culture. I'm really mad at the culture. Because does Oprah needs to be on television every single day to remind you who the funk she is. This is Oprah. Winfree motherfucker. Also, I don't think so, honey, that we need the Royal Family to key us into Oprah. I fucking despise the Royal Family. I can't believe how much time it takes up. Bitch. You need to go all the way back and understand

that Oprah predates the Royal Family. Okay, Oprah has been thousands and thousands of years, and the Royal Family is a blip on the radar. Oprah is culture Capital C, the Royal Family little C culture. And I don't even know what's going on with Megan Marco. I think she should be free to walk in her own designer garments and that's one minute, and they better be designer, honey, right,

I won't give a ship. I did think I was like, right before we got on, we're actually recording this as the interview is happening, and I'm gonna watch it at eight um. But but I did think it was funny, like people were like, Wow, it's so great to see Megan Marco walking in her truth. It's like she lives in a fifteen million dollar house. She's living in an authentic life, finally walking in her truth. And it's like, yeah, I don't know. She's been comfortable even since before she did.

Did you see some of the breaking tea that was coming from the I saw some of the breaking tea. I saw some of the clips this week. Um, I I want to comment on this, honey. This is an all right, oh my grew um. This is the one and only iconic name, another legend. You can't Bowen Yang's. I don't think so, honey, And I'm honored to say in sharing space with him that I've become better and his time starts now. I don't think so, honey. The

royal fucking family, honey. The protection of Prince Andrew at the coinciding with going after fucking the Duchess of suss herself Megan marco Is de pla ball and the fact that all these bullying allegations are coming out this week coincidentally timed with the interview says it all, honey. It's a terrible, ancient, toxic thing. It's the reason why British tabloid culture is lethal, why it kills people, why it

literally has killed royals in the past. The fact that it still exists and it still has the same culturals important that it does is the reason why British tabloid culture is as noxious as it is. So Royal Family disappear. Let let's make Buckingham Palace a fucking TikTok, make it a make it a collab house for YouTubers, for for zoomers to go in there and make little videos to entertain us, because that is more valuable than what you have done for hundreds of years. You inbred motherfucker's I

don't know about all that. I don't that's one minute though, I understaying like they're they're old, and I'm not to be agist, but you have to get them out, bring some youthful energy into that space, sage the fucking place down. Then bring in some young British talent to make fun

little videos for us. It's so funny because I was gonna do I don't think so honey, Royal family and I I then I was like, more specifically, want to talk about the how I gas I was that people seem to not know Oprah was good at what she does. But but I don't think so, honey, the royal family, because what like the Prince Andrew thing, like you were saying, like the fact that they haven't really stripped him of his titles, the fact that they he's only stepped away

from public duty. He has not constructive of titles. He's

still a line to the throne. I mean they stepped away too, but the thing is just like for them to be like we're launching an investigation into the claims of Megan's bullying and not like take more seriously the fact that like Prince Andrew was on Jeffrey Epstein's pedophile island, like was like literally sweating his ass off when asked questions about it, and interview like the fucking call is coming from inside the house and the call is rotted

and gutted. I don't get it. And Elizabeth the second is like not, she's not It's not been it. I was in London during the Diamond Jubilee and I thought, I'm not impressed. I said, like Karen Huger said to Miss Wendy Steppa herself, I'm not impressed. You know who else is not it? Fucking Charles is obviously not it, and Prince William is not it because also let's not forget the fact that they pivoted so hard to piling on Megan was because there was many allegations that Prince

William was cheating on Kate Middleton. Girl. I'm so excited, my my girl is starting to work on a project that I think you will do very very well in. I hope it was just his birthday. I celebrate you. Thank you for celebrating Teresa. I celebrate you, Teresa. You were my Teresa. Should we sing it out? We should sing it out? What do you think is the song we should do? There is happiness after me, but there's happiness because of me. There's just a nice little software there.

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