"Spooky, Kooky, Crazy" (w/ Taylor Trensch)

it all in the form of a podcast. We're launching a once in a lifetime podcast event called Conference Call. Conference Called takes you inside the chaotic company wide conference calls have Cursed as we frantically try to sign new talent, close big deals, trade hot gossip, and keep our company from imploding. Conference Call. It's an incredible heroes journey and you can listen to it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher,

or wherever you list into podcasts. There will be new episodes every Monday starting October, which means the first one is out right now. Conference Call. We will make you famous, and famous is better than alive forever. Look may Oh, I see you? Why why and look over there? How is that culture? Yes? Goodness, let's last cultures calling and guess what a joke has been said this morning that

I think is funny? Said this, and I have to say the joke please famously Sewn Mendez and Camilla Cabello and item we're putting in quotes as of September twel the day over this recording, they are together. As of this day, they are together. Whether this is in a real way or a Hollywood way, which you know what happens that people they they're they're they're trotted out there and we're just too accept it. We don't know though, if the love is real. But they have decided to

dip their foot into some comedy. And you've seen the Instagram video. Yeah, And you and I have a fundamental disagreement on this. You think it's like we do them many things and that's healthy, yes, But you think it's them trolling. I think it's I. I don't know what I think about it, but when I saw it, I was like, I respect that. I commented that I respected it.

You commented that you respected it, and then you said that it's trolling in a way that is very aware that everyone knows that Sean is gaye I said, But then my thing is that I think it's I think it's they think that they're being funny and clever, but they're still trying to convince people that they're together in that Sean straight. I honestly, I don't know what to think anymore. When I watched that v m A performance, I was like, Oh, that's a gay guy and his

best girlfriend. Yeah, but I'm also loving noses Can. I also just I think there's a third camp here we're I don't care. I think I think he's I think he's I think he's okay. And not to be like nihilistic and be like it doesn't matter, nothing matters, but I'm saying like I don't have truly a strong opinion on his sexuality. I would say this, this is how I feel about the Well, first, let me say what the joke was. This is why we got into this

was because, first and foremost, it's a comedy podcast. We focus on the comedy, not not dissecting people's sexuality. It's just not what we focus on. But go ahead. I pulled open the video and it's the video. It shows the two of them and our guests said the other two, that's so funny, and we love that, love that, And so basically my opinion on the whole thing is I

think people should leave Sean Mendez largely alone. Like I don't like when people like what bothered me was like when they were all like, cancel Sean Mendace for not being true to himself, bitch no, because it's like he's, you know what, he is open about his like debilitating anxiety, and you writing hashtag Seawan Mendez's over party can't be good for that. So it's like, if you want to make a joke about Sean Mendez and Camilla Cabo, make

your jokes whatever, but don't attack the people. I've I've been on too many I've been in too many different cities and opened up my Tinder and all these cities to see too many, too many gays like pose at the meet and greets with Sean and like in their faggiest attire, and Sean just looks happy. Sea is happy as a damn. Sean is just so like welcoming and warm, it seems, and we shouldn't like he's not homophobic. I mean, that's the thing, is like It's like when there was

a hashtag to cancel him. I'm like, truly, why, and then I remembered, oh, yeah, because gay men are so cruel to each other. We become our own bullies. This was an experience I had it in the college. So when I went to the college, I actually approached my dorm mates and I was we had a big smile on my face when I was doing so, and I would walk room to room trying to make connections and friends. And it was most difficult with the gas with the

gay men, the out gay men. When you were closeted it or they presidious, closetive, the cruelty close closet you said, closet of collotive. I love it. Yeah, it's actually really culture number eleven. When I was in the I was positive. But my thing is like, wow, wow, wow, the cruelty of it, all that that has, the meanness, that that has, disrespect, that that has has, and to be seeing it now in twenty nineteen, the year of our Lord, it's very disenchanting.

It's so disenchanting, But you know who is so enchanting. I've been enchanted, our guest. I was enchanted to meet him. I wasn't chanting to me, Taylor, Taylor. He walked down the street to the studio, book in hand, clutching the book, and I clutched my pearls and you clutched your pearls. And I've been telling you to read this damn book. Trick marriage, Gia Talentino. I'm only halfway through, but it's blow. It's truly rocked my world. And I don't trust anybody.

I don't trust the Internet. I don't trust the vectors by which we have been deceived, none of them. And our guest is backing his finger. Okay, let's go to the well. He may not trust it anymore as a result of reading the book. I don't know what his mind state was before. I want mind state. I want to get into his his perspective on this. And oh my god, the credits. Bitch Matilda, Hello Dolly, we got a back in the studio. We got a back in the studio. Do you have enhance? We ever had a

back in the student? Don't think so. I don't think we have, do you? Ev Hansen? I'm sorry, I just I just want to just get this out of the way before we bring him in. Um I think out of all the roles and Wicked, I would be a back. I think you would so once I'm glad, I'm heartless. I'm heartless killing her. Do you know wonder I think is the good role in Wicked? Yeah? I think Knessa Rose is the good role in Wicked. And I think it is eraser that they don't have Wicked Witch of

the East on the soundtrack. And I know I'm not alone. I know that I know that I'm not the only one to ever say this, but I will say thank you for amplifying those voices. We have to because guess who gets a lot of the attention and Wicked back and and and Bok. It's like, can you imagine if if like the breakout role in Wicked was Bock. Well, this bitch broke out. But but I think he would even a test that after every show you know it was about Alphaba. Yeah, but for some boys it's about Bock.

I have to ask him about who his Alphaba was, because I will Okay, we need we just need to bring him into this, into this conversation. I love him so much. And a funny bit and a funny aspect. Sometimes you can turn a tweet and you say, ha ha ha ha. Now please welcome into your ears Shawn Mendez, guys, what are your ears? Tailor trap? I was hoping when you were started the transition with disenchanted or you know who we are enchanted with? I was hoping you'd say Amy, Well,

I wasn't chanted by Ammy in that film. But I don't like that they're making the title disenchanted of the sequel. What is that true? That's the title for the sequel. There's a sequel. Yep. Patrick Dempsey has been making the rounds. I know what will happen in this because you know famously at the end famous iconic elf about Menzel but of course and he remained. So I love the movie

until she decided to go. It's like remember the movie Pleasant film James Marston in the cartoon Land, Absolutely okay, but pleasant pleasant Phille at the end, where with this one decides to just live in that world, right, It's like, what why would you wouldn't She stays in black and white. She stays in black and white because she wants to go to college. It's like girl girl, community college, occasional school actions. There are so many opportunities. That is classes.

It's classes. That's a lead us reason with this one to say I'm gonna stay in this sorry but very white and black pleasant pillet. I don't know, I mean. And then we have a Dina being a cartoon forever. People are gonna be looking at her. Doesn't she have like work obligations? I would follow James Marston into a sewer in Times square and a half and half and you and Taylor has wow, I who knows that? I think. I think the movie is gonna be Amy being jaded

in New York and wanting to go back. That might be because getting your dreams is strange, but it seems a little well complicated. There's a kind of a sort of cost don't know any of these words anymore. It's like what is this friend? This? Wait? Okay, in our in our in our cursory research of you, I don't know you. You did ship and Dylan Colorado? Yeah, of course? Wait do you? What's your what's your assessment of Colorado now that you're away? Um? It was beautiful. I love Colorado, fun,

dylans gorge. Um, I ate so many like eggplant, palm subs. That was like my main memory of Dylan Colorado. It was gorge doing theater at twelve feet Yeah, for sure. And in rep we did like five shows and every like you would rotate every night, like one night you're doing cabaret, the next little shop of horror is the next rocky horror? Is that crazy making or fun? It was fun until like halfway through the camp or halfway

through the summer. We then had to become counselors for children, and I staged in choreographic production of one one Dalmatians, and the girl who played Corrella like look out for her because she nailed my beautiful coat. It's like her big number. But anyway, like not what I thought. We all had to be counselors, but it turned out you could opt out, and so most of the actors opted out, And so I was responsible for like one hundred nine year olds and you opted into. You were like, I'm

gonna be noble here and be a counselor. Well I wouldn't have if I had known it was an option, got it. But so I was like wrangling a hundred nine year olds. One of them was on the autism spectrum, and like a teacher needs to go through the specific training with Yeah, and I was like, this is not I'm not being helpful to anyone here. It was the

biggest tragedy. People don't talk about that. People don't talk about it, but oh my god, I mean did you so did you ski while it was the summer, the summer, but you go beautiful hikes though, gorge hikes, gorgeous bike. Wouldn't believe I don't know how to ride a bike. Still still to the stage that we would have used this time differently. We could have we're gonna got you out on the street, and we could we could have been like, you're doing it actually learning to try to bike.

I don't know about you. Matt was the most traumatic moment in my life between me and my dad where I truly hated him and wanted to kill him. Yeah. I went through much worse trauma than that in my life, but it was trauma. Okay, so then are you now? It was just a conscious like I'm not I'm never going to learn. I think it was like I got on once and fell, yeah, and I could scoot. It was like the era of razors. So I was like, oh, yeah,

you yeah, I can get from place. Yeah, I I feel like there's such a there's such a period in life where it was like, these are my outside years and you have to roll on something to get from

place to place and as long as you're able. Yeah, And the thing is like, so you had a Razor scooter, which is the good one, but of course, okay, see I had one of the knockoff scooters that were like not as good and yeah, and you could feel like when whenever your your friend would let you get on his razors his or her or are they z scooter you could just feel the quality. Paul, do you have a Razor scooter? There's nothing like just sliding over gravel,

smooth ride. And when you were given the privilege of finding some newly paved asphalt on a Razor scooter? About it? Son? Like, in I think, um, I feel like Razor scooters are sort of a passing item, you know. Oh, Like I feel like I was like out there being like in my in my head being like I don't want I want people to know that I'm different, So I'm not going to write the scooter. Oh and so what was

your mote of transportation? Want? Honey? Okay, everywhere I go from wait, I mean okay, So like at this point, you guys were this is so I don't I don't quite know what I'm trying to ask, but we're razor scooters to you like a way to like blend in. Well, I will say for me, it was like was it a mask signified or was it like you like face? Sure, I mean, but I couldn't do like because I don't know.

Maybe it was the handlebars that made it okay. But like my friends would be skateboarding, and I don't know about you guys, but that's something I can never ever however, like truly, how do you do it and not die? You know? Because it's like is it like a balanced thing? Like? But I remember like my cousins, like they would all play on their half pipe and they would have specifically half pipe birthdays, and it was like I would sit on the side and be like, I am that's an

act of violence, that's domestic terror. It was aggressive and me sitting on the side like not being able to do this, like it's like maybe I don't know, but it's like are there gay people who can see? There must be there must be out there. But it was something that my body refused to allow me to do like people. Some people just can't whistle. I can't do you can't you need, you need? None of us can whistle, suck in or or blow out. I can't do it. Oh,

that was the first time it's ever to happen. Stop, everybody's got that was crazy that I said, I can't whistle, have never whistled, tried one time and whistled. I've seen Goodie Rodgers with the Devil. It will never happen again. It will never happen again, only that one. Wow. I don't know. Does it break your heart that you can't do it? I feel whistled because no, I'm I'm over great. There are so many parts in musical theater world and I'll be watching it and like the person will just

be whistling, and well, maybe I can do that. Barpup can't whistle. So there's probably whole things you can't do because you can't. Yes, so many shows I haven't been able to be a part of. So good about that as you get to sit yeah, until until, of course you famously spoiler alert stand you know, which is actually like a horrible idea because of that, that could have been like an incredible role for so many actresses and your hair like Ali Stroker should be Ness Rose, but

then she would have to stand. But it's like, let's just see g I Yeah, Wow, that Wicked movie is really going to happen. Huh. I hope. So that's what they mean. They've been mendez. I think. Um, I think this is like basic Broadway knowledge for everyone else, but for a plebeian like me, I can't get over the fact that Libby from Sabrina the Teenager, which was generally green generally is a fantastic and understudy for Alpha Button. I saw her in Tampa in my hometown, saw her

go on for free. Oh my god, there's so many things I have to ask. We have to ask you who, who your alphabet was? Who your Okay? So when I did it for a very short time, I was only there for three months, and it was like I auditioned for another show called dog Fight starring Annalie Ashford, very much the same um and I went in and they were like, no, you gave bitch, like absolutely not coming. It was this I know. It was the same director as Wicked, and he was like, you can't be in this,

but do you want to be in Wicked? For three months, and I was like, yeah, I would like that, And so I got to do it for three months while someone else was like doing it out of town job, and so I did it for three months. It was Jackie Burns was and seans really Schwartz was a comedic genius. See I mean that Glenda part like you can really turn the part you commednic. So you know who I recently worked with, who I often forget, wasn't alphabet but chic, so I wrote, I wrote on a project with her,

and she she like, um. I went then afterwards I went back and looked at her alphab but like her voice in reef madness to like cuckoo bananas. These these these comedy queens who can sing? What's the one that one chick on that TV Parker? Yeah, Miss swan an incredible. Yeah, Miss Swan was amazing. Wilson would be a Wilson will be a crazy it should be amazing. Stop it stop right there? Oh oh Deborah Wilson. We we need we need to get Debra on now. I need to ask

Taylor what your thoughts where are you? And Gia Talentina, what are your thoughts? Like? What do you make of it. Okay, I'm early, I'm on, I say to her, reality TV was exactly reality TV me. Um, I did delete my Twitter after reading the first essay. Crazy, Yes, seriously, you know what. I recognize this because I looked. I searched for you the other day and I was like, we're missing like content in my president. I was missing your content and were looking for the repel's drag race, guest

starring special guests. This is so funny. I was just telling Bowen today the benefits of maybe the leading Twitter. So what was that about it that made you do this? I mean, I think you should just read the Estercially don't want to, but it was so many things, but it was like essentially spending all of this time and energy like thinking I was affecting any home, whereas like I could be better using that time to like actual things. Because yeah, I mean, maybe I'll just I'll spoil it

very lightly, just give us broad strokes. What's going on? I told you that I told you this overwhind the other night. So this essay, it's called the Eye and Internet. It's the first thing in her book. It rocks your fucking moral So funny, so funny, so funny, and she fucking ships on Barry Weiss for like a whole three pages and parenthetical after a sentence about Nive Schulman where she says he punched a girl in calle Yes, I laughed at a lout. I was like, oh my god,

sing shocking. Is that the guy from Cafish? Yes? Um she so she bade her whole thesis is like the Internet distorts your whole distorts like four different things or five, but I can I can't remember four. I just just distrots your sense of identity. You identify your you canflate like your own identity with like someone else's u or and then distorts your sense of solidarity where it's like you think that you are standing with like a movement by not really doing anything, or or it's how you

know me too. Was collapsed into like one half dog, even though it was trying to represent a breadth of experiences. But then it gives ammunition to the other side to be like, well, look, these women think that being going on a bad date is the same as being raped. It was like it just it fucks that up for everybody. And then scale was one yeah, scale, scale, Yeah, you think that like scale, scale, and yeah, and he scale like music, la la la. I went on a scale

the other day, was shocked at the results. Okay, light I was. Yeah, I was how light my bathroom window? When a breeze stop me right off my scale. Yeah, the scale didn't break, it got bigger. I got on the scale and it got bigger. It's a compensate. It was like something in this room mask to take up space. Let me be heavier, money shop in the petite section to yourself. Yeah me, I'm huge. I'm the scale disgusting

discussing sto sorry okay. And then the last thing a scale and because scale where you think like, oh, well, one person says something means everyone thinks or a bunch of people are saying this, but really no one's saying it, Like it sucks that up. And then and then the other thing is opinions. You end up thinking that rather than opinions being the first step towards action, it's the end in and of itself, where you're like, well, as long as I form an opinion and I expressed that outwardly,

then I've done my I've done my duty. That's like the same as taking any sort of political action exactly, tweeting like this is bad, yeah, exactly, and you feel like you've scratched an itch and you're like a person,

and you know, it's always been so interesting. I love that people are talking about this now, and I'm excited that people are reading this book, and and I'm excited to read it because I do think there is a lot of fresh station when things don't happen, because even because haven't you been on social media, obviously it is happening.

It's like, you have to remember that literally when you are opting into social media, you are opting into a social media bubble, and you can only see what you've chosen to see, and the people can only choose to

see you if they choose to see you. So it's like until you are truly influential and famous, like you don't just have a tweet that gets like passed around, right, you know, like they're not actually exchanging thoughts and ideas, and so I think that is you know, I think as we've seen in the past four years, like the frustration and disbelief that we can be in the situation that we're in. It's like, well, we're not actually or

the majority of us aren't actually doing anything right. But this is the yeah, And the thing that kind of blows my mind that she like leads the essay with is that she's like, um, you can just walk down the streets and people will be like, oh, there's that person. That person exists. But in on the Internet, in order to exist, you have to contribute. You have to make

yourself known by posting something right. You constantly have to like engage with it in order for people to know that, in order for people to know that you are there and curate a very specific version of yourself, like going on trips and like being with friends exactly exactly. So, Yeah, it's fantastic. I'm so proud. I'm so impressed that you deleted your Twitter. I mean, I'm all, I'm almost there.

It feels great. Honestly, I spent I was also came from I would like look at my phone and you know how it tells you, like how much time you've spent. I think like one day I got to like ten hours and I was like, I've dropped it, and I was like, it's ten is so much. It's so much.

I've I recently was confronted by my phone and they said that it actually very rudely said to me that I had been on my phone for an average of seven hours and thirty six minutes, And I was like, this is so much time guaranteed on on any given day, more than I've slept easily. Yeah, h which is shoo spooky. It's very spooky and spooky cookie crazy title of apple. Um. But then then then you feel like, do you feel like since deleting it, you already concentse a little bit

of a change and that you're doing other things? Did you start reading this book when like I'd already started, But like, um, now I like exercise more. I like to just go on walks around the neighborhood. I volunteer at many organiz I don't I do, Like, I mean, it's been such a short time, but I do feel like it's better in the long run. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Oh that's staying. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. I can't give it up and can also it's so that's annoying, but like, if we want to have any sort of career in the entering, you have to have some Yeah that's what's frustrating. That's so gross. Well, that's the thing. It's like you have to kind of like you will if actively die to people, if you do not exist in somewhere on the internet. And then people are always like, well I would delete it, but then like how will

I promote stuff? And how will I do this? Will people think this? This? This? And you want to tell them like no, of course they won't. Everything will be fine. But then you're in your head like will it I don't know, Like it's weird, it's we've let it take over to such an extent, like it's not. I wonder sometimes if it's this thing that like you don't actually need, like you you don't know, but if you're going to

do a certain thing. That's like a friend of mine told me recently, the Oscar winner j K. Simmons is a series regular on a television show and its second season, and I was like, I don't know because he's not tweeting about it. It's like when you find out it's it's like when you find out like, um, like that Jennifer love Hugh it is still is still working regularly or like you know, like that Julia Stiles is actually in Hustlers. Yeah she is. Opens tonight we're seeing it tonight.

So this is of course, it is September twelve, two thousand nineteen, and we're recording this episode now on the day that we were going to go see Hustlers, and have you read these reviews? Of course, Jennifer Lopez gets emotional when she finds out she's maybe in the running for an Oscar. She certainly didn't. I watched the video of this. She said, it's obviously amazing, and you know it's it's it doesn't matter, but it does. If Jennifer Lopez give us a performance that is worthy of an

Oscar nomination, I will absolutely cry from joy. Of course, you were really going through it with Selena the other day, I was, yeah, So basically I I said that. I said that I was going to do something that I did not end up following up on, which was I

was going to do a Jalo marathon. I was going to watch five iconic j Loo movies and the five days leading up to tonight when we're gonna go see Hustlers, and I watched Made in Manhattan and Selena and then ran out of time and couldn't do the other three I was going to do, which we're enough Monster in law and not the cell It actually was no, Oh my god, wait, why am I losing? The last one wasn't out of sight at the next door. No, it wasn't the boy extra either, the one with Leah Remony.

Oh my god. Second act was my favorite. Second act is so good. Oh my god. Everyone needs to see second Act. There are moments in it that will make you scream, not from laughter but from terror. She didn't soon as she run into the glass door or something.

There are two moments of broad physical comedy that are in a different movie that you're that you're so grateful for, including she trips over a partition in a supermarket and then she lets a bunch of birds fly during a presentation at the end of the movie and they get all huge. Basically, it's like she's revealing at the end

of the movie. Of course she works at like some perfume company or like whatever, so she's like, this is the perfume and then like the doves fly in the middle of the park, the doves fly into the street, they get hit by everyone goes oh, and then the scene is over. They never addressed it again and the

probably doesn't success. It's basically like scary movie three, like like the pencils making thrown, It's so did that basically, it's you think they'd be like a rule of three, there would be like a third huge moment of unwarranted physical comedy, but there is not. It is so good, It is so good to watch. Oh my god, I don't know. Okay, monster a lot enough, Selena made in Manhattan and the wedding Planner, the wedding but I've seen

the wedding Planner so many times? Right, So can we have just a round table discussion on this for one second, Jennifer, And here's the let's say this. This is Hollywood reporter actresses in Hollywood. Who's who was Jamie Adams? Every single one? Regina? I was going to be Amy Adams. You think I'm Regina King, Yeah, but I do believe that. Actually at this table, I am Gaga. Okay, Okay, who's your Glen. There's Andrews, Glenn h you're Glenn sitting over there and

you won win Oscar this year. Before we move on really quickly, I do have to say about Gina Rodriguez. He first Hollywood Report around table was um Best Actress, Lead Lead Actress, comedy, and she like she starts talking about like body positivity and then she turns to Lena Dunham and goes, I mean you've done so much the body positivity movement. And then when you can see it like sort of like Lena just doesn't really know how to take and she's like, oh, thank you, I love it. Whatever,

it's so funny. Everyone see it out anyway. Anyway, here's here's a sentence with which I will start. Okay, Jennifer Lopez is good actress? Yes, okay, now when you I forgot what was it, Betty Gilpin, when you played actress or star? Yes? Yes, I was in a van recently with many people on ice throughout Jennifer Lopez while playing that game, and it was a huge point of contection.

I was like, I am a very like even keeled personally used you seem so even killed thank you so much, um, and I I got like so heated with this girl who was like absolutely an actress, and I was like star. Okay, So you were playing and there you were saying is she primarily a star or primarily an actress? You were not arguing that she is both exactly, So you were I mean I would have to agree with you. She is primarily correct, yes, and she was citing she said

Selena alone makes her an actress. Okay, I would say that she gave I think, okay, let's actually talk about this. She's giving great performances and also being a quote unquote good actress. I would argue, like, when you watch Selena. I watched that movie, and I say, that's a very

good actor. Yes, but there is something too. I think the fact that all her great performances, and there were several, all came that late nineties area and then they seem to really stop happening completely for the last twenty years. So but there's like definitely merits to her romantic comedy work.

I think, like I think she is affecting and scenes in Monster and Law, and scenes in the Wedding Planner and scenes here and there, And I would argue that she elevates material that maybe wouldn't even happen, like maybe second act doesn't even happen unless she's in it, and it doesn't even like get seen at all if she's not committing to it in some way. And I think you can be an actress well being in romantic comedies

like I would argine, Kate Hudson is an actress. I think Kate Hudson is great, Right, Okay, you don't agree.

I think Kate Hudson is great. This actually is a tough one for me Kates, because it's like she's definitely given great performances, but is there a lot of versatility and the kind of things that she can do, Like I would say, like in Almost Famous, she comes out there and you're like, oh, I'm in love with her, and then since and it's kind of been like she is real good at doing like the skeleton key, kind

of like Culture number twenty, the skeleton key. Um, but she is to me, like very good at doing Kate Hudson's shipping star then actress. I would have a problem with anyone saying that, Wow, okay, I can't tell I I'm sorry. I did just laugh because I thought I remembered. And someone brought this up on another episode. But in the Boy next Door, this boy this high school that she that wants the hottest man in the world buys her a gift, and the gift is a first edition

copy of Iliad. This edition thousands of years but it's the first edition. You didn't have done that. Yeah, scroll was like a mile on scrol found. It was like a Penguin edition. Yes, my first addition, Oh no, I shouldn't have done that. Noah, I'll never forget. There was a poster for that movie like at my subway station, at my subway station that I own, And one of the taglines in the movie was like her biggest mistake

and someone penciled and was making this movie. Wow, who knew that we're going to be incisive hot takes on the subway? And it was Rachel Dratch. I saw her sort of doing the last few scribbles and then you were like, Dratch, got you draft? Oh my god, that is so funny. Although okay, so I will say watching um Selena, I was like, this is a great performance and I'm not surprised gives a great performance in this in this movie. Hey, I've got a question for you.

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and when I know something even scarier, creepier please. I saw a live performance um picked oh, and I said, when you guys sang a song about being young, We're going to die young, beautiful so hard God. Specifically, remember the two of you within the group, which is not to say that the others were unremarkable and maybe it's just like gay people, but I do like specifically remember leaving being like those two are so funny. Oh my god, we know when you were there, we would have lost

our mind. Oh my god, we'll never forget. I forgot who I came, but I like, I was hanging out with Doug Whiteck at the time and I came and that just really made me l L wow. Yeah, that was a fun time in our life and equal parts like but also like petrify, like wondering what the sketches were that were in the show. It was a good show that night, a lot of race stuff of stuff.

Of course we were on on the cutting edge. Oh my god, Oh my god, I can't talk about no. But you know we were talking about today was we years ago we did a sketch um where our friend's Studie Green played Joan from Madman, and I wrote the sketch which was like essentially Joane comes in and like it's like the office workers and Bone was one of the office workers and she was like, we need ice and then she left and then the whole sketches Bone just being like, I'm sorry that we need to talk

about who that was like, yeah, that was that was like I wasn't having fun. Oh my god, stop it. But honestly nothing, never mind what well? I was talking about this speaker to you the other day at work with someone and it was just like we were just and this sounds so like this sounds like merrily we were all along, but it was just like, God, remember, don't you miss the days when you would like you

only made stuff for yourself? Yeah, but those I don't know how you feel, but like those were also the days when you were a big stage what I mean where you are right now exactly and now and now it's like the grass is always greener, you know what I mean. It's like, what did that look like for you? Like, was it just like being in Dylan, like being a counselor to someone on the spectrum and not having the training until like, um, like what was like roughing it

for you? I mean I'm gross, I'm grossing, Like I got very lucky. I was in college and got cast in Spring Awakening my soft year and left school and like great, the last like ten years have been on

the theater schedule. But you've worked, but you seem and this sounds so whatever but you seem remarkably like grounded and like not like truly I mean yes, Like I'm like, oh, Taylor's like Taylor's Taylor like gets it, like he gets it from all, like he gets everything like on a very holistic level, like what what's happening in the world, And like I'm like, oh, like that's like like like that perspective is very rare. I don't know. Thanks anyway, same what about you? I have to I have to

ask you about Hello Dolly. Yeah, first they talk about it, please the best whatever. Bet is like everything you want her to be in more. Oh my god, so funny, like as funny as you think, she'll be ten times funnier. Oh my god, I'll never forget. We were staging some scene and the director asked her to like cross from stage right and stage left, and she goes, you know, I don't like to talk and turn my head at

the same time, completely earnestly that blocking was changed. So like the experience of being in rehearsal with her, what is that like? Well, actually, I was so like prepared to be like inconstant like keeping my distance from her, or like feeling like I was gonna say something stupid because she is the legend. She's Bet Middler. And then we showed up to first day of rehearsal and she was wearing like a sketcher shape up, like some sort of like ath leisure ensemble. She's like the four ft tall,

tiny grake. She looks like your grandmother. She's like so unassuming and was like so welcoming and kind, and she also wants to get right to work, like she was so kind and lovely, but also it's like let's let's do this, and like on ten minute breaks she was like up on stage going through things like running lines and wowow and you had Beanie and David and kol Gavin is one of my crushes. What a great fucking show.

The first first live musical I ever saw. But just like dinn Are just in school, she did go right, didn't you go to Hell? I didn't. I saw I saw Bernie. Of course you saw Bernie Sanders the roll of Dolly and it was TRANSMATI yeah, it was huge. I remember just I really wanted to go see Bet but it was impossible to get yeah, like harder than Hamilton's Yeah, oh yeah, you hear that? That manuel um I was gonna say, oh my god, you hear that we're not going to I just I fucking love that

love that show so much. And I was just saying, like, that is like the first piece of musical theater that I saw live. Were you in it with Bernadette? Why I left, David beat Beanie and I left the same day? What you all left arm in arm? And you said if you go, I go. Baby. That's right. How long

does it take to stage and rehearse that musical? I'm always curious about, like how long the rehearsal pars for like a Broadway Generally it's like four ish weeks of rehearsal, with one week being like you're on stage in the theater with the technical elements and costumes, and then you have like a month of previews where you're still rehearsing during the day and changing the show. Hello Dolly we started.

We did like a week or or too long week workshop, which is like a Hello Dolly like we it was so peculiar to do like a workshop of like a smash at musical. Yeah, but like the principal casted a two week workshop in Harlem where we just sort of like met each other and got comfortable, I guess. So we did that and then we came back for rehearsals and probably rehearsed for like six or seven weeks. It was a long process, but it was massive. There was

like a gigantic train, I mean something people. Yeah, there's nothing bigger than a training wales. There is nothing that whales. It's perspective. Whales like to always try to use this. The water can kind of destroy. See, they're very small. Often times when you look down into the water, things look different size than ever. That's that's what that's called. And some of these blue whales out there are such bitches and they think they're big. They haven't even seen trains.

They need to come see Dolly, Dolly. Um okay, so this is a thing. So a lot of people that do musical theater that I know, like you were saying, like um, back when you were doing those shows, like you would rotate out shows and like you do like a workshop of Dolly and etcetera. Are you one of those people that's just like you just know all these shows. So when you get cast in something, you're familiar with it from knowing it because you love musical theater. Like

is it. Did you find that makes it easier? Yes? Most mostly, Um, and I've been in so many things where it existed beforehand. Um, so yes, certainly, Hello Dolly was weirdly the one show I didn't know at all. I'd seen Wally and so I knew like some they were like put on your Sunday clothes and movie Wally. Oh yes, So I thought that was like my only that was my one entry point. But yeah, I guess. I mean, I was like a big theater in high school,

went to performing arts schools from age of like seven. Um, there is such a good fucking generation of like like people like people like I said, I just said to you, I ran into I didn't know you lived in not to say where you live, but you live in the same neighborhood as me. And I didn't know this. I ran ran into Adam Chandler Barratt on the street, and like I said to him, I was like, I was like, oh, Taylor's coming on the show, and he was like, oh

my god, he lives right over there. I was like what And I didn't realize that, but like I was looking in his face and I was like, you have made me cry. So hard. I told him that I was like, I won the lottery years ago to go see Next to Normal and came out and he berated you. And this is before the show even He just walked straight out to you and wagged his little finger in your face. Yeah, and he wiped his little finger in my face and he hit me. And it's important that

everyone knows that Adam Chandler Brod hit me. Just kidding. The only thing he hit me with was his massive talent. So um. But he I was like looking like there was a moment where I won the lottery the next tram years ago, and me and my friend Kenzie were sitting and thank you. If I've ever heard of like a gay man's best friend, Yeah, honestly, it was very that. And so we were sitting in right called the Lincoln Sea.

It's come for me, but we were problematic, problematic September two. Um, so basically like we're sitting there and we the perfect for you, like the Hey number three. I've never experienced crying like like that through so anyway, into the end of the show, Fucking Alice Ripley is a monster for what she did to me. Adam is a monster. For what he did to me. Jennifer Damiana I saw I still like the original cast, but not eront Fate. They were psycho and then I was like looking at them

and I'm like, it's crazy you're here. And then the other night I saw now the other night, like I about a month ago, were even to go see Waitress and Noah Galvin was in it, and my god, truly, when you're like doing something, can you go see other things? Like? Are there nights when you can go check stuff out? No, which is the hardest. There are I've actually seen such a little theater I feel like since living here. Wow, because like when you're all in the same schedule together,

god bum that sucks. Especially for someone who works. Sucks and you work a lot, so it's like you can't And actually it encourages a tribalism. And that is what it led us to the election, and to begin with the tribalism in this country. It was specifically the tribalism. They became so tribal. And now you know, when there's a blackout, you got to compete for who has the funnest street show? Yeah, stupid. It's always mean, girl, It's

always the mean girls cast. Oh my god. I mean there's something about I think I'm gonna I'm gonna go out there and say this just because I did. I did a thing recently where it was just like a table read type of thing where it was all Broadway people for for like one of my best friends of all time, and I gotta say, I'll put it out there. Baby got a little got a got got a huge talent crush right back at you. From his end, I'm oh my god, I'm just like Jared, Yeah, oh my god.

It was just all these like crazy crazy people, like crazy amazing people, and all of us were just like, oh my god, Like it would just be being like because I was on the opposite end of all these people, of the actors, the readers basically and like saying the fold nut, saying all the numbers, and to be hit with like a wall of like beautiful music like that.

I've never experienced anything like it. We all got emotional. Yeah, there's something so like inherently emotional about music just listening, but for people who do it so well, I mean, and oh my god, this is what I was gonna say, Like I was gonna like make a big old bow claim and say like Broadway people like the most talented, well rounded people. I think in any like show bizfield.

I mean when you see someone fucking crush and like a musical or like anything like that, Like that's when I'm like, really, I mean, I'm in awe of you guys, like you guys have to have skills. That is just like That's why I'm like, it's just it's gaggy Taylor. Okay, well let's ask the question. Yeah, we have to ask the question. And also I'm hoping that well before we answer that, before we ask the question, you being from

Tampa is important as a Tampa queen. Well, not even the proximity Tampa, because that was where my grandparents lived and my sister lives in St. Pete now, so I go to Tampa maybe twice a year, even Hannah honestly, like if I'm not up in the clear water, of course getting my culture, but no Tampa. I saw that you were from Tampa, and I was like, yes, Queen, You're the only person who's ever responded that way, people like, oh I thought you were from Maine or something. You

got the very main um. But anyway, we do have to ask the question, which is, um, you know, what was the culture that made you say culture was for you?

Taylor Trench. So I thought about this for a long time, and initially I constructed this like gorgeous tapestry, like a triptic, almost like trifles sort of, and it was it was Sailor Moon Watching Sailor Moon before School, the Brady Bunch movie Yes, starring Christine Taylor, and the movie musical version of Oliver, specifically the scene where Nancy, like the tough broad gets murdered on a bridge. So I was like forget,

I know. So I was all set to like take you through that and like sort of like the theme between that as that it's all like blond women, which is deeply troubling, and like I need to investigate that. But then late last night I suddenly remember this is specific to Tampa. A little group called Entertainment Review. What was this? Okay, I have a video clip, I have picks like to share with you so you can kind

of get on board. But Entertainment Review is a group of it's been going for thirty years, as long as I have been on this earth. It's this group of like I want to say thirty young girls wearing so much makeup, and they have nine medley's. How young are the girls? We're talking probably from five perfect the average is like five to thirteen, but then there's always like one seventeen or eighteen year old. You're like, babe, because

for us, young girls could be like in the ties. Know, this is like genuine, like six young girls, um um. And which is not to say that Transplanter not genuine. They are every bit um. But so it's like these it's these young girls wearing so much makeup and they do these medley's. We're talking. They've got like your country medley. They've got a big band medley, They've got like a Hollywood medley. They have both a patriotism medley and a

Salute to America medley. And the main difference between those is that in one it's like a very formal stars and stripes sort of outfit, and then the Salute to America it's more of like a flared, light washed teen in a red tank too. And I think one is like to be performed like one was performed in front of George Bush and the other was performed in front of Bill Clinton. Sure, um, I don't think I have to say which I don't. I don't don't think I

have to say which tank top? Remember who that was for? Um? But I'm going to show you a clip of UM probably rock and roll, the best of the fifties, sixties and seventies. But out of this group came Willa Ford famously said that nine A Levin is the reason she's not a bigger star. The other day, Yes, Um, out of this came a girl group called p y T who you probably aren't familiar with by name, but they do sing a song Anywhere USA, which is on the

Miscongeniality soundtrack. Anyway, Yeah the Swim, Yes, yes, of course. And they're also remember they're also featured in Mandy Moore's UM Missing You Like Candy video. I think they're like her friends world. They start like pumping out these pop stars and so initially started just like something for the community, and then it was like this woman named Cynthia who created it. Cynthia who did adopt a baby names Awe

from China. She became like a factory to just sort of like push these young girls into like our c A records office and be like sign her. Yeah, um, I'm gonna pull up a bit and we can obviously edit this out no, um no, just we'll just make sure that we can hold up to the night. Or we can just send we can just send you the note, the video or really the audio. Oh my god. Yeah, and we do that, okay, yes, yeah, I talk amongst Are you ready? Okay, so Taylor has pulled this up. Okay,

we're gonna watch. And now what's it called again? This is called um in quotations rock and roll, and then underneath that the best of the fifties, sixties and seventies. And I actually don't think you need that apostrophe between the number and the it's not convey. So here we got ready interview. Its okay, high kicks to the Beatles. And this is of course by the poodle skirts. You'll notice that whenever they're like mid drifts are exposed, there's like a flesh colored ye see and shout out to

the costume designer. There are hundreds of costume changes per medles. Here. We have white girls in acro waves. That's what we have here, kid, the tempo, very fun term. Oh that arrow is going through her head? Is that your best friend? Now? I wish Oh my god. So these are two girls from p I T. Open that mouth. Yes, I mean they're very good. Totally. There's always a moment where someone comes like in a gown and sings a valid and

here's one this sister wife, like, what's the hair silhouette? Here? What will we even call this wife? That's your friend lighting to hell? Now? Wow, that girl is the star that was the lead singer p I T. Wow, I stand any white girl with little to no soul going, Yes, it's my favorite thing. Me too, that's my best friend. No, I love it. No, she's a star vias and she's queering the space like Atlantic learning artists. Something about the way it was filmed makes it look like they all

died in a tragic accident. Wow, come on the roll. I can honestly I connect with that because it's like when you're a kid and you see other kids up there doing it, it does make you feel like and then you have the performers instincts, especially just like a group of girls like changing looks every five seconds. Okay, so what did that do for you watching it? Were you just like I'm just enjoying this on a pure

level where you're like I want to do that. I think a combo of both, and I think there's maybe even a part of me as like as little as I was when I was watching this that understood like how funny it was. Yeah, I mean you see the you have to see right, Like it's so campy. But it was just such a thrill and it was so many girls that I was like going to school with. There was a girl named Kalina Nkamoto who famously then did become a member of the Charade Brigade on the

hit Nickelodeon show UM hosted by Summer Sanders. Oh you mean, uh sure a slime? No, God, figure it out, Kalina Nkamoto, we did have the same birthday, UM figuring out, seeing my seeing my friends like be stars and every Yeah, they were just bringing so much makeup and I was loving every second. Are you performing? At the time, I was like in school, But were you looking at the girls and like with like a with like a shifty eye, being like they get to do something and I can't. Yeah, yeah,

but that's a weird question saying I'm sure. I'm sure. I was like, Oh, I want to be up there so bad. I want to be like the Lone Boy Center. Yeah yeah, um. And I also was like I never I have thought of myself and I am not a very good singer, like an am an actor and like sort of like a like the funny guy on stage like Waka waka. I don't know, but I promise I'm not really Like there are just so many incredible as you were saying, like at your where you were where

there were so many Broadway voices singing at you. There are people who are phenomenal and I'm not one of those, but you've like let it Broadway show and like it doesn't matter, and and Taylor's a star and an actor and a singer. Oh and this is this is a game.

You add a third category with Broadway. Wow. Anyway, I mean that's the talking thing is like when you watch like, for example, like Audres's performance of one ten in the Shade Fancy Raunchy sorry um on the Tony Awards, and she does like an aerial flip, It's like you shouldn't be able to do what Audre does in an acting and singing from an acting and singing and also be able to do an aerial flip. And then you see I mean I'll never forget when I saw Sutton in

the Drowsy Chaperone. That was I watched that Tony performance all of the time. It's shocking how talented she is, and I honestly I did feel that way again when I saw Noah and Waitress. He I'm not even kidding you. I contacted any materroids and I was like, you are

God the next level. Yeah, but there's that happens all the time, like almost everyone is capable of that, like if you like, not almost everyone, but like you see these people and they're just so good, Like I don't know, musical theater acting to me is like I love you guys.

It's it's it's athletic, it's it's everything. Okay. So I mean, so this is the culture that made you say I okay for me, and I like, I wish so badly I could be doing that, Like I wish I had the ability to like slay the house down like these young ladies are doing. And I just loved it. I Like I've always loved a quick change, like from day one, and it just who were you in Spring Awakening? More?

It's more More, More is a good part. Tony Award winning Miss Ms Gallagher Junior even Miss Gallagher Jr. To be confused with Gallagher Senior, not to be confused with Miss Senior, but of course, but of forks um. Did you see the original Spring Awake? I did so many times cried in my childhood home when it won the Tony Award really like I was like, we did little little did you know you would later thereafter? That must have been like a crazy fucking moment when you get

cast in that. Yeah, one of the like best experiences to still to this day. Are there shows now that you're like, wow, I wanna like I want to check that box in terms of rules or is it or it is Broadway in a place now where you're just like, well the new like new ship, like the new ships coming up and like, I don't know what the thing is. I'm curious to know how you feel about where where Broadway is. I would love to tell you, No, I don't know. I've in terms of the like what like

what boxes I want to check? I feel like because I've been doing it, I've been like lucky enough to do it for so long. I do sort of what I would love to like try not being on stage, film and television. Also, every time I go in for an audition, they're like, get your rat face out of here, and I'm like, absolute best of luck with your project and thank you for the feedback. Um I would. That's like something that's interesting to me. The future of Broadway,

I mean right now and for a long time. I feel like we've been in this era of like pop music, like and even like pop musicians writing music for Broadway, and I feel like that's about to end. Yeah, So I feel like we're nearing that, and I don't know

what the next frontier is. Well, it's interesting, like the best past couple of years there have been that there's like one or two shows that are fully not that that like get like so much critical notice, and then they do better as a result of that, such as Hades Town and like bands visit and things like that. Is a pop album, Oh my god, I guess you're right, But it doesn't feel like it's something about it. Yeah, maybe it's the way it's present. I literally know nothing

about Hadestown. I haven't seen it. Yeah, all I know is that it's good, right, and then I shouldn't not heard a single song that makes us bad bad our media diet is bad and I don't know, like literally, like it's like it's with the pop music song running of it all. It's like but when you go see waitress, like who's mad? She is so talented, the wickedly talented, the wicked talented one and on um. But yeah, I'm mean I love going to the theater. We love going

to the theater. What were your did you do theater in high school? So yeah? Oh so yeah, so Matt had a very high school musical Za. No, maybe I was just posited and like couldn't do any of it

because I was I was closetive at the time. I couldn't do anything because I was too scared, but I always wanted to And then I felt like I got involved in it a little late to the point where like I did audition for a couple of musical theater roles, like like walking into Telsey, Like auditioning for that ship is like a true car because it's like what you said, like when you go in there, you sing and like you you think you're you think you're a good or

fine singer, and then you hear some of these people and you're like, oh, the way you produce sounds just different. Although you both are very good singers, I swear like you're very good. Lately we've heard ourselves back, just like you know, a nice person on Instagram will record us singing like let that we do in the wrong key and it just sounds awful. So we often think, like we know, let, maybe you're a star. We can just

do it without it. So then we go up there and it's like finding the note in the beginning, because like the way that it starts, and I'm Catherine out of the two of us, so I like said it, and I'll hear myself sing it back and it will be so humiliating because I know, I don't think I'm like the best ever, but I know I'm not that bad, but it sounds so freaking bad. And then this was the gag. We tweeted that we have recently sang it and it was horrific because we often do that to

get ahead of it. And Mark Shaman himself tweeted and so I would like to hear this, and I said, and I would like to see that, would like to see He's literally saying, like I've sung demos worse than I guess I'm most shocked to hear that you're the Katherine McPhee. I'm the Catherine you think he's you think I think healthy, and you're the Katherine McFee. Interesting. That's interesting, well, because wouldn't you say that Katherine McPhee is a cat

and Megan Hilty is a dog? Or no, how interesting I was going to say, I say Megan Hilty is the cat, but maybe I guess in some ways. No, Actually I did not want snatches, not did I. I think that the reason why Bowen is the Megan Hilthy is because he comes in with a brassiness, sure, and a whiteness and very wide but I feel like like

um in the like oh in this girl's rapahout. But but you that's you, Like you come in with like the like I'm gonna poet my bootstraps and get this part, and I'm more tucking your hair behind your Yeah, I'm sort of like I don't know, I guess I could couet yeah, but the first I mean, I'm just literally just copying Megan when I sing it. But it's like the for that first line that she sings, like really hits your ear in this way that's like whoa, Like

she's like flashback girl, Like, whoa. I just out of the corner of my eye, I saw what happened to spark on the wave on the thing and it was in bad Sorry Andrew, Sorry, hp A, we peak for only you, Andrew hp A HPS producer. Smart Andrew, Yeah, very smart and um but smart most smartest, most smartest, most smartest? What what most smart smartest? I've been tempted to just put that on, but I'm just like, noll, save it for another time. I'm I dropped out of

Gorgeous you got available on Hulu? Hulu? Is it? Yeah? Since July four? Baby? Oh yeah, so good. Well, I mean also just like talk about like great fucking little character performance, like drenched in them. Yes, there's there's gotta be There's gotta be a gay movie soon. Yeah. I'm just saying this because I had the thought the other day, just like there has to be like some movie with a bunch of gays being being gay to each other. Do you know what I'm saying. Isn't hustlers in a

way sort of fulfilling that? Yes, But it's just like it's like it's like that it's drag. It's it's like it's it's an awsome tone where it's like we're not fully there, we're about to touch it. We're like I think it'll happen soon, but it is. It is kind of like if you ever see like a lot of gays in one place, and like even even on stage, like it's like sad and dark. It's like early I feel like we still feel like um, but it's in terms of in terms of the content, not in terms

of like whatever it is like. And I think, I hopefully think it will change. But I think it's funny that like you know, like the Boys in the Band was on was on Broadway, and it's like I love that, Like that was on Broadway and they did it. But it's like inherently that that piece of work is like not necessar serially like a celebration. It's it's mean and um, not indicative of the community that I'm in, like a product of the time that it was exactly exactly and

so you know, it's just interesting. I think I think it's just something that's like easy for a producer to say yes today, easy to give money to because you get that group of boys or men um and then you put it together and you're like, what's something that they can do that we can get a quick yes to. And it's like the boys in the band because it exists, right, I mean, I feel like the known quantity, and so

they do it. Yeah, I'm waiting for like someone to write that thing that like really speaks for and why are we waiting? Yeah, there's there. I just I can't wait for the day where there's like something that's not super heavy and like weighed down by like the trauma of being queer and that's the fat hair and everything no matter what. But also like it's not super like fluffy either, not that there's anything wrong with that, but there's like I can't wait for them to be like

a filled out spectrum of all this. I am so certain that both of you will contribute things like that to the canon, like things that are like enormous successes and so important to people. Yeah, we'll do that in perpetuity. Yeah, okay, Well it's actually on my schedule for next I have I have tusday. Did Thursday blocked out to write um seminole uh representative of art um No? But I do feel like um but I'm just I'm just saying I think it is changing in a big way and purely

on on the basis of how gay men. I know we just taught We opened this episode saying, like, well, game, we turned into our own bullies. But it's like, but also like, how lucky are we to like not being in a place anymore where it's like the only people gay men will watch on the stage of a drag queen or a portance. You know, it's like we are drifting away from that. Have you read less? I did, and I controversially found it absolutely tedious. Wow, Okay, but

you guys share something. Okay, I'm just gonna tell the listeners right now. I do finally read it. Okay, we've been talking about like, um, like you've been sing it to me for such a long time, and so um. I did read it, and I did like it very much. The ending to me, I guess like spoiler alert for last or like we are going to happy ending. It's a happy ending, and that to me, I was like the romantic in me, like I absolutely cried and was affected by it. I was like, oh, it's amazing, like

there's love in the world. But then part of me was kind of like is this reality? Like is this like? Or is this like? Or is this earned? Or is this Yeah? I mean the reveal again spoiler he's gay, he's gay, and that is his last name? Um no, But like the reveal that it was his his lover that he had broken up with, that was narrating it

the whole time. I was like, I don't know about this, like it just it just felt easy for me and like a little bit hashtag reveal in a way that I don't think it was as clever as I mean. I think like when Chanela came out in the Bubble, that to me was more clever than all of last a reveal when she came out in the Bump bitch Bowen,

you're white, You're white. I think I have to also own that, like I am one of those white people who's like for me, like, Japanese culture is very fascinating, and so I think I was actually so hurt by the fact that I was promised a chapter set in Japan and get room it was in Japan, and that you had the whole tea ceremony and you were in it. It was how many pages dedicated to other travels and I got a sliver a slice of life. I will say, every single time a new chapter open and it was

a new place, I was like, I'm bombed. I want to be in the last place. And then and then I was happy to be where I was. Then that's effective fucking storytelling. Back, I didn't say that, it wasn't. I'm just saying. I'm just saying I'm if be on the ending. I liked the book. I didn't find a tedious like our damn guest okay wait talked about talk about honey Okay unt, I like just I never found it compelling. I wasn't interested in following him as a character. Mmm,

I like, I don't know, I feel bad like the character. Yeah. But my thing was like, my it's weird because my favorite parts of the whole book were the flashbacks to their life, and I was like, oh man, And then it was weird because even though spoiler they end up together at the end, I was kind of just like, oh, I don't know if this feels right, like to me, people don't just come back to me the compelling thing.

Okay and Sudi reminded me of this the other day when we were talking about it was that it's it's it's really interesting to track it from Arthur Less as a character, like being the young person and the couple just dating this older man, the mirroring, the mirroring of it, where then he is he comes into middle age being like, what the fund is happening? I have a younger lover,

he's leaving me. He's mirroring someone else like that, I think, and assuming it has to be that way and like kind of causing the delise of your own relationship despite that not being what you want because it's it's been your experience. And the way that Andrew Sean Greer writes it like executes the mirroring is I think, very cool.

But I I get what you But I think part of him as a character is that he's like kind of a cipher that he's just like well at least like in everyman that we or just like in terms of like his like where he's at in life in terms of being a middle aged gay and not knowing how to like like not knowing what the rules book is like he's just like he's floating. He's like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I guess I'll travel around the world and not think about my ex

getting married. I don't know, but I I get what you're saying. It's it's like at some point it gets a little maybe a little tedious with like the jokes, perhaps see the humor in it. I enjoyed the humor in it. I think sometimes things it's so like richly written that it sometimes it's just like, okay, let's get to the next There were like no events, yeah, I think. I also I hear what you're saying about the framework, but I like, I feel like instantly I knew what

the book was and there were no surprises. Okay, that's fair. Oh my god, I am sucking obsessed. We've talked about two different books, believe we. I there's there's got to be some book club thing, like like some like Oprah's book Club for the Masses, for the queers. I don't know what's the next book I'm reading. Trick or Talent? Oh yeah, I want to read that. And also the book that you keep telling me to read normal people, normal people. It's hetero. But I liked it a lot.

I've seen it on many a like book table, many a book table, it's fine for me if things are hetero. I can actually read a hetero piece. There you go. I think it's like it's like it's like heterop exactly how a piece like Succession is a heteropiece. And I haven't watched that. I just started. I think it's fun. Everyone says it's so fucking good. There's there's fun stuff happening, and it's happening to me again, which is are you like this where it's like when everyone tells you something

is so good, like, well, I'll get immediately contrarian. Yeah. Yeah, there are so many things I'm breaking bad. I've never watched. I know it's incredible, but I'm like the same for some reason. I'm just like, I know that what's her face chokes on her and vomit and dies and it's so I mean. Joe to be an Apartment Being an Apartment three actually was whose co star was in Entertainment Review dream a Walker Dreamer, I believe, was who also did play Miss Hanna again to my start to be

singing solo in an Annie. Oh I'm sorry, Dream There's someone Walker Tampa's own dream of Walker I refused to lie and dream I refused to believe that I didn't come up with dream of Walker. You may knew her from the first Sex in the City movie. She's a waitress at the restaurant when Charlotte's water breaks. It's like she was and she was an entertainment review certain dream. Oh wait, talk about this a little bit a white person with the Japanese culture. Have you been to Japan? No?

I was supposed to study abroad in Japan for a full year in college. All the theater majors, not all, but most of the theater majors go to London and they're like you, it's basically the same thing as being in college in America. And I was like, I'm not doing that, and so I made I crafted my own program in Japan. I like contacted a host family. I planned this entire year abroad in Kyoto, and then like a month before I was going to leave, I found

out about Spring Awakening. I have never been How long has that been? Ten eleven years? Wow? Okay, so do you you're do? I think I think girls trip girls trip. I girls talked about Tokyo. We've been saying and Japan and jen like Kyoto. I've heard it's a great time, and then it's a great excuse to go to Disney Sasney. Um, I have to ask a question, Yes, who are you being in Dear of Enhancing? So was that like a different deal in terms of like the fans treated it

like a cultural because that was a cultural moment. Especially I would imagine for like I remember being in high school and very much that that was that moment was wicked. So now it's like you were in Dear Evan Hanson when it was having its cultural moment, Like can you talk about like what it's like to perform that show for an audience that is experiencing that show as part of its culture that we asked about, you know what I mean? And expectations are high, and especially it was

so peculiar because I was the only person. It was an it was the original company and then me and I was replacing this person who was like their performance was the stuff. Like when it was announced that he was leaving, fans were farning They're like, no matter who comes in, like we're going to and of colat Honey currently in Brazil. Yes, oh my god. Right Honestly, he said he was going to Brazil, and I was like wow, literally, come come to Brazil. I know it'll stop radio silence.

And I was He was like, he was like doing press in Brazil, and I was like, well, I didn't. I never thought of that as like an a center of press for like for like a gay show. Super Yeah. By the way, that show looks stunning. Yeah. Yeah, I was Gwyneth Paltrow is exquiz talking Lucy Boynton. Yes, I never saw a Bohemian Rhapsody. Um. Oh wow, that's she is like essentially the villain. An unbelievable performance. Really, Lucy playing ess daughter Jessica Lang. His daughter is Zoe Deutsch.

I just got chills up my spine remembering that Jessica lyons and is giving you like everything you've ever wanted. Oh my god. Yeah it looks great. Yeah, I'm excited. I can't wait to see what happens. Oh my god, I'm excited. I saw the trailer and I was like, that's what I wanted to show. Yes, okay, we keep talking about yeah yeah, so um yeah, it was like

terrifying to step into this thing that I feel like. Also, when something becomes so huge, and especially the group who like loved it first, they sort of have a sense of ownership over it. And so it was like horrifying to step into that show and to step into a part that is like all that is so much about singing and singing high and singing a lot, and I was like no, um, And so I was like living

in constant fear of that. It was cool, cool, crazy, but also like because it was this like it was like the show and still is in many ways, it's like such a huge staple on Broadway. Like I like, I feel like the day that my casting was announced, like suddenly I got like forty followers on it. Um, it really is. It was this moment Yeah, and I think it was. Um it was one of those things

where I really I was dying to go see. I still have not seen it because it's it continues to be I mean, once word got out about the iconography that was it's it was kind of impossible to get tickets, and then it continued to be impossible. But then then that also just means that you being in the like like all I heard at least was like stellar, stellar, stellar things about Taylor. Yeah, that was just like did you do it with Rachel b Jones? Did do it?

With Rachel by Jones. Uh yeah, I've joined with the original cast, and then like slowly, like month by month, a person would leave and a new face would come in. And I mean, everyone is so good at the show. I just saw the show recently with um the boy who was doing it now Jimmy Award winner Andrew bart Fell, and he's so good. Literally, Joe can Booster and I just at the Jimmy Awards were like, he's gonna be in.

Devon Hanson. The producer of Devon Hanson was in the audience, like leaned over to the casting director and he's like, there is It's so funny, like like, um, he's in now and during Evan Hanson and Renee Raps, Regina George, that's crazy and that that honestly, And I don't know, did you watch the most recent Jimmy Awards. I was there in the Flesh, which Ben Platt posted. I was in the backgrow um and the girl who won um oh yes, she was just a stunning performance. So oh

I'm here, I'm here. Yes, it was just unbelievable. And the guy who wanted to sang um wondering from the bridges of Madison County. It was tromendous. It was it was so so so good and like just watching that whole show was so amazing. That whole program was I just bad like when I was a teen? Or is there something Has there been a shift? And like as like the Internet somehow like made kids better, Like it's just crazy kids and I'm like, what the But they're

all more talented than I am. It's from the culture number forty five. I just watched these kids and I go, what the but I think it but it's truly the g Talentino thing of like your sense of skill gets so distorted and I don't know, I'm not connecting the right doughts. But these kids probably have always existed and now I and no, it's that it's that they they

see so much. They can consume so much of the top tier musical theory like mimic and exactly, and they know what heard, what hurdle to reach, or what their faults. They're fake, They're they're all fake. They're all fake, and the are fake. They're forty year olds in makeup and and we're shutting the doors behind us. And it's actually really a problematique that they're even up there saying that

they're six teams because they handle on the material. Yeah, they're saying, Folly's honey, you haven't lived it like I have. I will say it is. It was so fucking funny to go to go there and watch to count them two girls perform as the drowsy chaperone giving you like boozy singing as you as we stumble along, like these two girls like giving each other like google eyes, like we were like seeing the world. It's so funny. And

to know that their sophomores in high school, it's so gorgeous. Yeah, but I had to ask about what that must have been like, because that had to be like performing a rock concert. Yeah, and so scary. It's but bended this magic trick where he somehow was able to like sing flawlessly through the night, like while doing something that I mean, he's being asked to be very emotional, Like that's what this especially now, like people come expecting to watch someone

cry for two and a half hours. So now it's like you come and they're like, and this is where you cry. Um, But also like you can't help but have an emotional response to some of the material. But he would be like, I mean like a wet, wet face and singing gorgeously, but when I cry, I'm the sort of crier where like I can't make sounds anymore,

Like everything gets so tight. And so I was up there trying to sing these songs that are so high, just like oh and every nightmare, every night, every single night. I packed in every single song. But I'm just like the thing is though, It's like, so there's this pressure or not pressure, but direction to kind of honor what the person did. Uh. You know who I was talking

with this about Guest. I was asking her about like what it is to take over for someone that does like an iconic um first uh uh you know performance of something as Adena did, and she was talking about how there were little idiosyncrasies and like you know the way that Adina does things and they want that honored.

But for something like, uh, such a demanding role. It's like what did they kind of tell you, like make this your own, make it work for you, or was it like this is kind of the way Ben did it and it's iconic and we want to see it this way. They were super generous in terms of like letting me I also like didn't really get to see the show because of being on the Fater schedule. I didn't get to see it really before doing it, and

so I did. They were like so kind and generous in allowing me to like create something new, and the cast was to like doing it with the cast who was used to doing with Ben. They were like so open to doing it, like doing a new show essentially. But then like coming as we like neared performances, there were things where he was like just you know, this gets a laugh or like this, like things that he's like, this is successful every time, and like take it or

leave it, but that is like something that we know works. Um, So there are things like that. And also like for that show, it was so specifically crafted around Ben, like it was made to like highlight all of the things

he can do. So even if you do sort of try to create your own thing, you're inevitably like a little bit doing And I just say, like, what a mind funk for someone to be like, Okay, well here's all this stuff that works for me, and do your own thing and like and you figure out what works through So that's funny. I guess it's crazy, Like we're just not crazy, but just like in terms of scale, it's just like figuring out the permutations of like Okay, I'll do this this on this night, but not this

and like just wow, what a crazy? Like advocates of

like whoa whoa, whoa whoa. Yes, it's just when you see those like iconic roles and like you see like I saw what had to have been the nineteen replacement cast of Kid, but I did see who I believe is a is a superstar, which was Anneallye Ashford, and so it was like just interesting to see her do her and she is so great at being her and she is an iconic presence but also honoring what what Chinna with did and like that walk is so interesting to me, Like it's not just like go up there

and like give that performance. It's go up there. And honestly, when it's something like Wicked, I think there might be like a sort of not pressure, but responsibility to give people what they right, because you can do your thing but within the framework of like what the director has decided the show looks, like what the shape of it is, with the tone of it is like within that you can play, but you can't like fully come in with your own energy, right, but in an accent y. I tried,

imagine you can't with a limp and a Scottish I think I would casts on all four limbs. What if the cast was full body, my my dear Evan Hanson leg what's your dear Evan Hanson? That's like a campaign for what's your dear neck brace? If I ever want to cry, I do listen to the Forever, Oh my God, and the Reprieve. I think I think I've done that too. I think for Forever. There was a day where I was like, really rot and I just it just came on and I just kept playing it and it worked

every time. I was like, oh wow, this is like this is a trigger great for me. That's Normandy motivation tears just about the basketball. Thinking about Joel Kim Booster is amazing directions, pioneering, and also I think I got lost in sort of the shuffle. But he also did direct choreograph the entire live Vietna of course, and you know, anyone who wants to step forward and say they are the director, it's crazy and it's a ranger. You would

take that from from a queer artist. It's really crazy to be white adjacent that that would give you permission to then sort of stump all over them. Joel can Booster is the queer artist that directed Normany, and you can use that as the poll quote. Yeah, I think maybe, how do Wait? What was this? Joel texted us and he was like, they're forcing Normany to address the fact that I'm falsely claiming that I directed the motivation video

because the promoting he's promoting. He's promoting this NBC show and she was also on some NBC like she's doing the voice, she's doing y she's Kelly's which when I saw them in that picture together, I was like, motivation wow, um wait, oh wait, one more thing. Okay, Sailor Moon is Sailor Wan is like your north Star interview every morning. Other other other peripheral things worth the anime or no, yeah, like Pokemon, Dragon Ball, c um, okay, great, blind Spot,

don't know it. I think you'd like. And Don Chow is in like the live action remake. Oh yeah, they're making they're making. I just got like, when you think someone's hot chills and not a damn wrinkle on his face, I would break let him be motivation turning around. Okay, bit innovation. I think it's time. I think it's this will be I don't think so. You didn't I literally forgot. Well it's fine, you'll think of something attack. So this is I don't think so, honey. This is, of course

hb a HP, says Andrew. Um. This is arts in one minute to rant against something in pop culture that we are feeling less than satisfactory about. And I'm actually going to call it back to the beginning of our conversation. Okay, okay, so you want to start, yes, since Matt Rodgers just callback, I don't think so, honey, his time starts now. I don't think so, honey. Sean men, that's attackers the sixties. Honey, we would just think of him as a talented singer.

You are are falling victim and falling prey to the social media landscape, and they're telling you to attack, attack, attack. Why can't he just be a talented, hot singer with a great body, face and head of hair. Please let him just be. I feel like if he wants to get together with Camilla Cabello and kissing the ocean, it's fine. I see bone Yang and Sunny Green do it all

the time. Does it upset me? Yes, But I feel like if they're having fun in the water, let them just be two individuals who have fun in the water. If they kiss weird, it's first of all, it's not as weird as watching Bone Yang and Sunny Green kiss. And also, if that's what they want to do, that's what they want to do. Also, Shawn Mendez, we support we love. I actually am a fan of the video with Camilla and your kissing. I thought I had humor and listen, if you're out here attacking Sewn Mendez, I

actually don't think so, honey. But he actually is one of the more talented ones. He's really fucking good. And it's like, you don't want this person to go cucko bananas, So why are you contributing to that? Is it gonna make you feel better? It's like, yeah, we can talk about him, be have light hard. Did I go over one minute? You're yeah, yeah, you're still going over. Oh I don't think that's crazy. Do you think they kissing the water because of the refractive properties, like then that

makes them look bigger. My thing is like, I don't think there's anything like nefarious about what they're doing, Like I don't think I don't think they're like scheming like let's create a fake relationship. I think we're creating that. I think it's fine if people want to be close, like and also it's like they're clearly at least friends, clearly at least friends, they get along. And also maybe it's them clearing a heterosexual relationship by whatever. I'm not

gonna I mean, who fucking knows what it is. But it's just it's I don't know, And maybe I'm being a little hypocritical here because we talk about celebrities all the time and we have fun talking about them. But it's like this feels like it's bordering now on a little bit of like a cruelty that we're not talking about, which is like if he is closeted, like that's sad, and if he's not, it's also sad because you're attacking him.

So like overall, to me, it's like a weird It's like it's like it feels like abusive and ugly right now where it's and I get that, like, you know, there's gonna be factions people that are like, don't feel bad for him. He's white and gorgeous and talented and rich. But it's like, I don't think that's necessarily a reason to or just not a justifier for like trying to

destroy someone on Twitter. Because one thing I liked that Taylor Swift said was like in her explanation of the cancel culture, it's like she boiled it down to saying, like, you know, what you are actually saying, if this person should kill themselves, like cancel them, cancel them, cancel them, ruin their life. If you really wanted to walk it all the way down the line, what you're saying is

don't exist anymore. And it's so easy to say that from the back behind a computer, but it's like it's rough, and I don't know, I I have like a reaction to it because it's like maybe because it is about like uh inferred like closetedness, and I'm like, well, and people and it reminds me of when people really really really really crazy cruel to Caitlyn Jenner before she revealed

her thing. And I remember I think Dave said, like, um, he tweeted like I don't know, you guys, like if if at the time, if Bruce Jenner is actually trans like this is really messed up, and I hope that we wouldn't make jokes about it if it actually is the case. And it's like then when when she revealed she was Caitlin, it was just like there was this ground swell, but it was like, did there need to be this like big important moment for you to accept

this person? Because it feels like you did need that, and that's sad. We're not We're just not compassionate. I feel like there's this attitude also where people think by by like goating at out of him, they think they're helping him, liked be happier if you're just honest. But it's like a weird selfish thing to try to be like I know this about you, I know this thing about you, and like did you experience that ever being closeted? Um, I mean no, not that as I mean I definitely

was closeted in high school. I came out in the junior year, but no, I never felt like anyone forced

me to. I feel like I actually had a group of girls who were like thought they were protecting me, like they were things like there was this thing in a middle school or high school where someone was like look at your nails and if you looked at them like if you like, and I did a flex hand and they were like, But it can also mean it either means gay, or it can also just mean like cultured or it was like often had those girls like that's the way, yeah, well, hanging down the closet door.

I don't see any scenario where it's helpful. Yeah, it's the thing of like, um, it's like perceived weakness, I think, and it's like it's just like you don't know what's actually going on, right It makes me a little uncomfortable. And which way I did my I don't think so honey about it. Right now, I'm going to pass the torch over um the famous Bowen Well now perform because I don't think so honey, live for you right now and as time starts now, I don't think so honey.

Book jacket covers on hardcover books. It always slips out of my damn hands when I'm trying to read. And then what am I supposed to do? Take it off and then let it lay limp on a surface, no hone collection. It collects dust and it sits looks sad and structurally unsound. I wanted it belongs on the book. But then I'm what I'm sitting on the subway reading a hardcover that's just yellow and people have to read

this spine to find out what I'm reading. And no, sir, and I don't think so, honey, second books in general, mr books. I love reading on my damn phone and everyone saying, no, this is this is what I mean to say. People who are stigmatizing kindles are like, oh, are you reading on a candle? You only read books that you don't want people to know you're reading on a kindle. No, I'm reading on a kindle because sometimes it's just more convenient. This is what I've been doing lately.

And I've been wealth shamed and by a kindle edition and and a hardcover edition of a book because I wanted just it depends on the damn mood when I want to read a page or a kindle or we're going to stop. Actually on, I've been wealth shamed. I stand with you that people have also of like, I just love like the feel the smell of a book

over yourself. It's the century than up. And thank you for not wealth shaming me, of course, um yes, and those words were said on this very podcast by me um oh no, no, just just saying, um, I've been wealth shamed and I'm white. I think we were saying you had been well shamed on this podcast and I was like, no, no, what I'm and I have Okay, constantly, I constantly wealth shamed. But wow, and from a TV writer, from a TV right, you'd be shocked to find out

the amount of dollars. But when it's dropping on an upcoming vacation, that have to if you can cut that you have on trips, I do reward yourself. I did have no time. I had no time off this summer. I'm going have to go on vacation. You have to What do you like to go? Yeah? What do you like to go? Sorry, I'm truly my heart is pounding about I don't think so, honey, Okay, where would I like to go? Japan? Obviously? Okay, this bitch wants to

go to Disney World. I would go to You know, I've really since listening to the pot and I've been a long time listener. I used to have I used to hold an archaic, destructive attitude, like a thought that adults who love Disney were like sick and arranged. It is a very destructive thought. But I realized, actually, for me, it's only if the events in your wedding take place at Disney Thank you next, like it's fun to go. I've gone so many times, it's fun. I would love

to go to Disney World. Just go to Europe for your honeymoon. Go somewhere else. You shouldn't go to Disney Weld for your honeymoon, but also do whatever the fun you want. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna vacation shame anyone, which is also a form of well shreaming his tailor trenches. I don't think so, honey. Okay, okay, I think I have it, And as time starts now,

I don't think so honey. Owls. I feel like this culture we have been led to believe that owls are the symbol of like wisdom, Like the owl in Winnie the Pooh was dumb, the owl in Harry Hotter boring and a mailman didn't have any lines in the movie. And then the owl in um the like TUTSI Pop commercial was rude as hell, boring and dumbs. What is true about owls is like they have not one, not two, but three different sets of eyelids, like turn their heads

all the way around. They're bitch silent as they fly. In fact, one time in high school, I was driving home from a like either a rehearsal or or a performance of a theater of a theater production, and an owl out of nowhere because remember silent flight landed on the hood of my card. He had a face all your Nicolas case. I don't think you're honey Nicholas. A wonderful damn bird bird. I love that one. Oh my god, I can't leave that damn bird lands on your goddamn

car a little bit. What a little bit O break the funk out. If you like owls, get out, get out my apology. If you love alas so stive pillow for your velvet ass set, This is Chelsea Ryan Rodgers Raiser. My sister loves ship and she's a fan of the pod. No go work for Drake. He's got owls on his fucking stuff. Try to court Milie Bobby Round. I actually have to say I love owls. Turn their heads around like this. They have giant heads and it's not like

they're like whoop over the shoulder. It's like, yeah, maybe I hate them. Also they probably are so sick with disease, dirty, dirty, yes. And I'm being ornithology normative here, but I feel like a bird, but like a bird should look like a big big small eyes, owls, huge eyes, small beaks, fucked up. Fucked up is bad. No, this is a raiser. This is all raiser. This is this is small, big, big.

But also it's almost as stupid. It's almost as stupid as Jill Kim Booster saying whales are too big and some dogs are too small, because famously, whales are not as big as we think. The train is the biggest thing in the world. There's nothing bigger than the trade. Jul Kim Booster Jilkim No, sir, no, sir, Oh my god, I can't wait to say that to his fucking face. Stupid face, stupid face. I think this is this is this is a very good episode. This is a great epic.

I say something. I'm sad. I feel like I made a new friend. And honestly, you can come back anytime you want, anytime you freaking want. What do you want to say to everyone? Because now that you don't have Twitter, I guess. Oh my god, I wish I had something of note to say. Vote. Everyone should vote unless you don't believe in human rights, and then please don't and then you it stay far away from the polls. You can't play home that day. Um. I'm so thrilled to

be here. I've truly been fans of yours for so long and I'm so excited. The only shows I watched regularly are the shows that you're contributing to a writer Sanda's actors. Can't you are? You are kind of personified? Also, we did try to get you on on the pod, but way back days publicist said he will not be

doing that. We also weren't. We literally weren't allowed to do press during They wanted it to be like this little secret so you had you were like going in there and he will not be doing this, and if you try to reach out to him, I'll kill you. I am the publicist. I want to write a movie called the public Publists or it stars me, and I just tell everyone that I'm reading for myself. Is me as the publicist here? Asked me a question about one of my clients. Um, we want to ask Hillary about

the neighbor she will not. That's the settle gay work that we've been looking for. Also, Hillary Duff, Hillary Clinton, Hillary, which are you thinking of? Swank? Even swank? No, this was this was when Matt I were interring Vulture and we were entering the younger cast and Hillary Hillary Duff's publicist ran up to us and said, do not ask

her about the neighbor she's been instagram story. And I was like, I can't tell you how much I don't understand what we were, just like we don't given to ask her about like if she still talks to Lane, that's okay. Wait, I actually have to tell a story about when I was from the ages of twelve to fourteen, I lived in Los Angeles by myself. My parents sent me there and I lived there because I wanted to

be an actor. And I went to a club called Club one seven, which was a club for young actors, and the cast of Seventh Heaven did frequent the club, and one night at Miss Beverly Mitchell herself with a blunt bang. I don't even know if I call it blunt, I call it speed um Lelane came one night and I overheard her say to a group of people I wasn't born. I just am Helle thing. Although we have

to respect Lolane for the culture. That was the episode where she wasn't eating and we had to film the music video and she was two weak and oh my god and basically um. Then at the end she sings reflection by mulan Lea Salonga Christina Aguilera. Why it was very that very good. Okay, Well, before we get spin off a other podcast about Laine, we do have to end, and we do end every episode this song out there there's a world outside of Yonkers, out there, down there.

That's the light down. Wow, I don't know that dollar. Oh youthing close? That's okay by This has been a Forever Dog production executive produced by Brett Bahum, Joe Silio, and Alex Ramsey. For more original podcasts, please visit Forever Dog Podcasts dot com and subscribe to our shows on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Keep up with the latest Forever Dog news by following us on Twitter and Instagram at Forever Dog Team, and liking our page on Facebook.