“Piccolo & Bassoon” (w/ Betty Gilpin)

it really is. It's wonderful. That's also a trip to listen to our voices. Both you and I found completely different. That's but that's that's that's that's not the that's not the headline. But we're just I didn't know what it is like it's they're lower and it's like, did we just get older? But I know it's also just a little bit more years, you know what I mean. It's getting getting older is different than the years, you know

what I mean. But it's true, our voices have absolutely sunk, and I feel I have to retroactively apologize to you about something what happened. But I did listen to this episode and preparation that episode, in preparation for this one, and I got to a point where I got over this. But you know, back in the day, I used to just talk and talk and talk and talk, and I feel like sometimes I would just absolutely talk over you.

I think I was so excited this day, but I kept saying to myself, Matt, I know you're excited, but stop. It's not one of my memories of the day. It really isn't. I remember our guest coming just touching us. She got she got tactile. We all got tactile that day.

We all got tat that day. And I mean and the fact that like it was no bullshit because she was laying out this like organizing principle in her life, which is maggots and magic, which is that there's this thunderbelly in life and in the people you And then you read the book. There's a book. You read the book and you're like, oh wait, she's she's like she's like committing it to the written word, and it's Matt, I'm gonna say something. God, I think this is maybe

it's recency bias. I don't know. I told our guests the second I finished it, I clapped to no one in a dressing room by myself. I clapped, and I feel like it's the most life affirming, uplifting memoir I've read maybe ever. It's it's it's so beautiful. It's understandable readers when we say this is cannon, this is something you have to go read. Every time a chapter ended, I had to close the book and cry like three single tears to myself, which is different than crying. Three

single tears is different than crying. It's actually a real culture number three single tiers different than crying. And I'm telling you, like, I'm working right now and I'll just be sitting like like and like just smiling and laughing out loud at the book to myself. And people are like,

what is what are you reading? And I'm like I showed them the cover and I'm like They're like, give me that after you're gone, and I'm like yes, And now it's promised to two gays, which is fine for me because I will go out and purchase the book. All the women in my brain by our guest the second I can, which you also must, it is capturing what it's like to be alive period. I mean period.

This is the other imperative. The Conscian k n t inheritive conscient conscient, He's it's this is me being annoying philosopher, philosophy buff and in high school rock. This is what you have to do. You have to download the audio book as well, because just here period, Because to hear it being read is crazy. That because what I did, Man, I would read a chapter, I'd be like, damn, and then I was like, I gotta hear how Betty's reading it. Double.

I got to hear the line reading, I got to hear the chapter reading Martino, and then very much, so very much show it was worth it, worthwhile. Here's here's something to say when the person is a performer, read the audio book, and it's ruleal culture number thirty when persons performer book. I don't want to talk to anyone who's simply just read Jennifer Lewis's memoirs. You must experience and sit in them. This is no different. Though I haven't yet read the audio book. I mean listen to

the audiobook. But as we prove every episode of this thing, you can read things that you listen to. So I haven't yet grabbed the auto book. I made no mistake, but wow, I am so excited she's here. Um, so much has happened. Spoke to her and let's just let's do it. Okay, every one welcome zoom energy. Who I keep forgetting that I'm alone in my bedroom. I'm blushing as if we're all together. I'm trying that I got tactile the last time. We're not sorry because apparently it

went well. But I believe that there were I remember where we were sitting in there in that little room where we were recorded that podcast, and I believe there was even moments of hand holding. I'm just saying like, and I have to say, just like that was such a that made such an impact on us that day, like that conversation that we had, and then like with this book, it's just such a joy to be in your world. Like it's really really just very singular and

so smart and so funny, but so thoughtful. And I just want to comment you right off the bat by saying something that really struck me is the care and the love with which you write all the characters in this even the ones that you clearly didn't have a great interaction with or like you drag a little bit, you illustrate so beautiful hair. Literally but like you, you illustrate every person that has impacted you so beautifully. And I just wanted to tell you that so much. That

means so much, That means so much to me. Yeah, it was. We did a book event in New York, um and one here in l A. And there were I did the Drew Barrymore show that day, and my sweet publicist was like, I just need you to know that the event tonight for your reading. I was like, I read an essay and then do a Q and A afterwards. She was like, the event tonight, the seating capacity is und forty people and we absolutely do have thirty two tickets. Like, but then a few more people

than that came, not a fort but uh. And it felt like this moment um. It was like the end of It's a Wonderful Life where everyone comes into his house to get Like I was sitting at this table and every time I looked up from the book, it was somebody else from the book that I haven't seen in twenty years. And like Katie Cruity from a high school you know, who drove in from long Like it was just this this is your life moment. It was really it was kind of spectacular. Yeah, but yeah, I

hope no one gets mad. People who would get mad, I don't think we would read the book. I think you mentioned that at one point, You're like, I'm gonna like drag with care of this person. They won't read this. Yeah. I feel like that's the memoir rule if you're writing. Yeah, and I changed all the names and tried to be super I think I was really um. I wanted people to be able to plug themselves into the book, even if they didn't know or care who I was, or

honestly nowhere care about the entertainment industry at all. So I felt nervous about using specifics because I also didn't want to be I don't know. It's the weird uh push and pull of my personality of being like which I tried to talk about the book too, of like,

oh gosh, who am I to saying? But it's like, I am an actress who has written a book about herself, not a cowering introvert who's like, you know, fixing glaciers melting like I, I absolutely am a narcissist, So my therapist I shouldn't even use that word as a joke anymore because it's actually a very clinical thing. Wait, who said that? My therapist? Your therapist. Let's let this be a continuing arc on the on the show, which is me being obsessed with my own therapy. I did find

I had to I have let one go. So that's a that's a positive step. Congratulations, I let one go. Um. When I used to go to her on the Upper east Side, the older ladies, tiny little studio, no windows open, and uh she was it was like the fourth session, she was like, I'm gonna stop you. Are you allergic to smoke? I was like, am I allergic? No? She's like, okay,

keep going, Like I kept cradling on. She goes to her desk and lights a cigarette in the room with the windows and smokes the whole thing like it was nineteen fifty. It was pretty amazing. But that's like I can't come back. Wow. Yeah, I refused to return to nicotine office while I while I try to find my soul. Yeah, totally. It's probably the person before I was like, I'm allergic to smoke, like searching for some excuse. Also, I'm very curious about smoke allergy, like allergic to smoke. I think

probably smoked. I don't like we're all irritated by it. Yeah. Care, She's like, just smoke, love it, love her. Yeah. Okay, how are you feeling in your post summer sort of like twilight into fall? Because I feel like you've had a very intense six months no or like plus I'm sure like a year or eighteen months, Like I could, I could go on, I could increase the range. I feel like it's gonna want. I feel like I haven't

really done a good job of checking in with that. No, I know you guys do have the last three years span. It's crazy. I mean I was going to re listen to our episode uh for this too, and then I've got too nervous too, and so but now I feel like I should have because I'll have no new thoughts to share. But I do feel like when I came on last time, I was at this point of UM being out of town a lot and hashtag missing my friends, and so I was obsessed with this podcast, just listening

to two best friends giggle with each other. And I do feel like I'm there again in a different way of like, you know, I had a baby during UM. The pandemic got pregnant March, and uh had my daughter Mary in November. And then like so obviously as we all were, I was removed from my friends and then hyper so because of you know, she was an infant and I was super freaked out. And then my only really reintroduction to being in groups of wonderful people were

sets like going back to work. Um, which is great, but it's this weird like Orwellian fake society where you know you're it's it feels not real and not totally you know, it's just like a little corporate bubble of where COVID doesn't exist. Um, so I haven't been around. I've just like now I'm getting back into like holding the faces of my best friends and seeing them again

up close. But I've like really become re obsessed with your podcast for that, you guys are like my my friendship du lah of like simulating friendship quarantined await from people, which I'm sure all the readers felt that way during the pandemic. For sure, we feel we feel a lot closer to them, Like I don't know that was really some people say like during during that pandemic, like that we filled a lot of space and like a quiet for them, but also that was such a thing for

us too. It was like just still connected to doing something and each other. Like I mean, I can't believe a whole pandemic. I just a whole pandemic has gone on since we've last seen you. And it's funny that we've very much had the energy last time we were

like this is the beginning that. But like another thing that struck me, Like as you were talking about about the book, and one of my favorite things that you describe is that sort of transience of like working with people and allowing them in and having that experience, that tribal thing of like we're working on a thing together, like and you get close and like actors are very open people, and like you connect with people, and then all of a sudden that job ends and you go away,

and like I really struck by, um, your story of connecting with the older actress you did the play with and then ending and you're being like wow, outside of this, like would we ever even look at each other? And

then you move on with your life. But so because it's not the same as your real people, because they contractually go right right, Yeah, Yeah, that's an essay where I talk about the sort of um I call it the thing, which is like when you work with someone, the different kinds of connections that you can have that in a creative environment you're sort of allowed to just bypass these normal, uh small talk, we're getting to know you steps, like you just skip too deeply knowing each other.

And it's a little dangerous too in skipping something. Some of those steps are there in place for a reason of like protecting yourself or not getting into a connection where you're on different pages or there's a weird power dynamic or um. And I try to talk about the

different types of one. But yes, there was one with an older lady that I did a play with where just because we shared a dressing room and the job sort of told us we did display for five months together, and the job kind of told us where and how to be close and that we didn't really need to do any of the legwork to water the relationship or whatever.

We just we're able to sort of see. But we were kind of like um, weird demented twins in our brains, and it was and then when it was over, we had a yes, say goodbye, because but I think I am bad at that. I really am. I am. I do wonder if I kind of abuse the business sometimes of like getting to hyper connect and then ghost. I'm trying to get better at it. But it's yeah, but you also like have this lasting example in your life of that with Cosmo. It's like, that's how you guys met. Yeah,

I didn't know. I had no idea that's how you need that on that project and then he just kind of stuck around even though you guys sort of like it seems like maybe in the back of your minds were trying to really get rid of each other totally. Yes, really, yeah, You're like, no, I'm gonna be my own person, but I'm in love. I'm gonna have experiences, but I'm in love. Yes, yeah,

well I think we all deal with that. Like, Okay, So there's only so much time in my life and in the day and in you know, which do I spend it becoming the most actualized version of my own independent, liberated self, or work towards the career that I want, or find a partner and put down roots. Like how do I do these all three things in one lifetime? And I think finding Cosmos so early I was like, well, if this is the person, this is too early. Like I agree. It's like, why don't want you to say

you agree? Yeah? Yeah, but yeah. We played a brother and sister. He used to be an actor. We played brother and sister in a movie. And there's a scene where there is a scene where he uh tickles me. And at the Syracuse Film Festival, you could feel the audience be like, I think, yeah, I don't like this movie anymore. Yeah, forget it. Well, whatever is that is? That is? That? Is that streaming playing anywhere? No? No, I really want to see the signal. I tried to

look it up. I was like, OK, what's first IMDb credit? I was so sleuthy with this book and I made that. I don't know that it got me anywhere, but I did really get horned up when you describe the moment you laid eyes on him, which was that you were like someone who was so screaming my type, and then the thought in your mind was oh no, I have to I have to have sex with this, And I was like, oh god. The feeling is a scary. It's

a scary feeling, especially when you're working with someone You're like, oh, shoot, totally. Yes, conclusion just was it just a sexy feeling or was it like a star shower was happening behind him, Like

can you tell it that just sex, that's just sex? Yes, totally, And it was that for a while, and then all of a sudden, I sort of and I think I had because in talking about these connections that you make with people, you really it's hard to separate, um how you're in love with their idea of you, and you know, you realize like, I'm did I ask them a question? And I am I actually curious about this person. I'm I just so addicted to this feeling of they think

I'm the music video version of myself. So I think it started there for me. I was like, oh, he thinks I'm the person that I wish I was. And then and we were having a really good time, and then I sort of got tricked into seeing who he actually was, which I'm in love with this person. Falling in love disabled your own narcissism of being addicted to

the feeling of infatuation. Yeah, you tell a really like I think that In the book, there's a moment that sort of pinpoints when it went from oh, this is fun to Oh this might be real, and I just want to say, like how vividly New York the thing

of the hot pipe was. There's a story, so I won't spoil anything, but there's something that happens between Betty and Cosmo early on in the relationship that involves an exposed hot pipe in the bathroom, and that took me back to living in New York, like like in those types of apartments, the amount of exposed hot boiling hot types is that legal? Where where are our government elected

officials on this? We have to get yeah, come on, yeah, there was there was there was a line that you, um, well, first of all, the okay, Betty, you have like such a comedians knack for joke structure, like the way right is so it is so considered in that way where you always end on the funny part you want like you understand that structure so well, and um, but the perfect examples when you mentioned you and Cosmo, I think attempting an open relationship, like there's a raft break, there's

a line break, and use that this this is the equivalent of a blinkot and Mary Todd trying to figure out sick. It's like I'm butchering in between the language. But yeah, that's what straight people do in an open relationship, is Yeah, I couldn't believe it that like a heterosexual open relationship like that had that had to drive you nuts. I sometimes like, nowadays, remember how incredible it was, and

cause it was like you were visible. I I mean, yes, yeah, New York was just too small and too you know heterosexual just put us down like we're we're trying to keep up with the cool kids and we should just be pushed out to see um. Yeah, but we tried. We tried it for a couple of years, which I'm glad we did. We I was I was very young when we yes, yeah, yeah, yes, And every time I'm like, yeah, we've been together this long, I always want to be like ending ding ding. If there's anyone in this room

who's concerned about that math for our history. We had an open relationship for almost four years. Don't worry. We'd fucking other people up and down in our twenties. Don't worry about us. But that struck me when you said that New York is too small, because I was like, oh, I guess that's I guess that's that's true. For like, that's true for you, Betty Gilpin, where you're like, I'm not going to fuck any of these like bankers or whatever.

I don't I don't know what your standards were at the time, but I'm sure like you were dealing in a small circle. With a small circle, we were like, I'm not gonna like, I'm not interested in anyone who's not like who doesn't get me on a certain level. Does that make sense? Yeah, I guess so, or like it just wasn't. It's like maybe that the rules were just confusing to all the other straight men and women in New York, like everyone else had been on board.

It's like finding the people who are like, yeah, that's cool. Um that that felt And also every time it just felt like every I mean I write in the book about both of us being totally caught by the other person's friends and just being like, OK, don't tell that's the rules of it all. Or would always trip me up because I like we were talking about this last night.

A bunch of people I was with were like, well, I have a boyfriend that has to know everything before it happens, and I was like, see, that would drive me absolutely insane, as both people in the party. I can understand like two things completely don't ask, don't tell,

and afterwards you have to say something happened. But what people are comfortable with our say they're comfortable with is so interesting because I'm like, you both feel this way, or who's making concessions here and dying someone right right right totally, And I think the way that I also try to think about like career stuff and um, you know, in the book, I try to write about how you can confuse like the your own inner light coming out

into a room with societal success, like actualization with societal success. It can be very easy to confuse those two things of like am I achieving my childhood dream? Or is the internet clapping? Are two different things? Um, and I think like just along lines of fucking who you want or whatever, it's like we're all just trying to have a clear conscience when we're wrinkly on the porch someday, like I gave myself all the opportunities, like I tried, or I I didn't stand in my own way. I

think that's that's what I was most afraid of. With all three of those categories, actualization, career, and romance. I just just like, oh, I'm I can't be it can't be my fault that I didn't try. Yeah. Yeah, well there's there's there's there's like a beautifully short as say chapter what would you call them? Just the terminology of it in installment, okay, stories, it's you taking cosmos to

meet your your family and Thanksgiving love. Yeah, and it ends with I mean like it's it's this amazing story. He hits it off with everybody. He like mixed shoes out of like under sink garbage. It's crazy. I'm spoiling it. I'm spoiling it. No, it's not. It's not the Da Vinci code. The plot points aren't at work. I don't. I disagree. Okay, So I feel like we might have even for for the reader, for the listener. Put the

car before the horse, Betty. Do you want to first of all, do you want to just like talk about what the book is like broad strokes like sure, Yeah, I I wrote a book. It's kind of part um personal essays about my life and then part I guess attempting to be comedic social commentary about being a woman

and being in the entertainment industry. And I think I sort of realized that in a way I had kind of you know, I've always felt like my brain was a room full of women, or that I was sort of cycled selves depending on who was in front of me, like the sidekick or the girlfriend or that this, And I think that that's a very common feeling. And I realized that I had sort of literally com modified that feeling in being an actor and sort of literalized this

allegory in my life. And uh, I tried to write about all that and sort of um making an alpha living out of all the beta characters I was playing in other people's lives And was that impact towering or was that not? Like, um, so yeah, that's and then also I write about my dog, which was so beautiful. I mean, people, there's dog there's dog content in this which will take you for a trip to Saturn and back emotionally. And thank god you really got it with

the dog stuff. Okay, thank you. Sorry, sorry to take a little like detour on that, but I love it. I I feel like I I identified with that. I feel very seen by it with me. The I think of them less as brain women or brain people as like sometimes in my mind I will see myself in an avatar that I'm not like oftentimes it'll be I'll just watched a movie and I clearly will have connected with a character because I see myself in life as

that character. But I think that's what it is for me for some reason, Like lately, i've really in my in my vision of myself, I have a very long pone detail. I don't know what that means, but like I don't know what that means, but I actually I've heard a lot um but that I think speaks to like your actual like upbringing being watching your parents do characters maybe and also like you know, being in environments you spoke on the last episode that you were on

about like being raised in theater. I think I understand that as like it's it's a journey to find your one person, but it's fun and it's like functional as you're growing up to see yourself as many different like characters that can come in and like you know, spin the plate for you when you actually don't know you know what I mean totally yes, And it's so funny that you say the long ponytail because I was thinking when you were talking in the intro about apologizing about

talking over like I do. When I listened to your podcast, I really I think a lot about them. Did you guys listen to Peter and the Wolf when you were little? Like the the it's is it like it's like a narration and yes, um, it's just the two instruments that you guys are. It's it's like fun when you talk over each I think about whenever you do a rule

of culture and it's never in Innison. It gives me so much joy because it's two different It's like piccolo and bassoon or whatever, and the long the long pony tail.

I always like I picture you guys sometimes as these characters of like if it's it's it's not in Ellis Island, but it's like a city hall type place or a complaints where like you you have to stand you're like, um, you know, women on the brink standing in line for something, and Matt is in like an Aaron Brockovich type outfit and has cutting the line and platform shoes, shaking his form and you know, has his finger in the face of the teller and you as the reader kind of

next you listening, and it's incredible and it's a monologue and it's amazing piccolo work. And then you go to leave and you look down at the door and you've you've just been stabbed, and you look up and it's bowen wrapped in silks for like bassoon energy of like you know once and when comes in the Yeah, it's it's just the most true check out And thank you

for that. Yeah, it's why I always always picture this is by lovingly illustrating the characters period period, this is this is your knack for metaphor, like should the end degree for us? Like you describing us in these ways like that? Well, definitely my editor helped me pull the metaphor back a little bit. She was like, some of

this doesn't make sense. It's like great, great, great, Gregor tell me where like I talked, there's a part where I talk about um when the connections essay about like having these connections with older men were my senior or and like, uh, I mean obviously my senior, but who I admired and I thought it was just this platonic sort of all that exists is the art mind melding, and actually found out they were just trying to sleep with me, as they were many other people and the metaphor.

I was like, it used to be like oh he it wasn't just our text thread. He had many going at the same time, as if we were all so complicated, like sickly turtles in one cage and he dropped in one life saving penestillan turtle vitamin and he only needed one of us to survive. My editor was like, you

need to cut this. I like that, and you're saying the acknowledgements like thank you for reminding me of this sentence does have to make sense because like you know, yeah didn't Yeah, I didn't have a lot of periods, and they put them in. It was a sprinkling of punctuation. Okay, I'm I'm going all over the place with this fucking book because, like every it just hit me at these at such regular intervals. Okay, but this is what I'm talking about with Thanksgiving. One, Um, you bring Cosmo home,

it's going great. And then I'm gonna paraphrase and I'm gonna butcher it, so please correct me. But your dad just gets everyone to get close their eyes and imagine something that they have that they don't deserve. Yeah, and then you open your eyes and you see Cosmo looking at you back at you. I was like, holy shit, you can't write this stuff. You can't fictionalize this stuff. That is right, That is crazy so amazing. Yeah, it

was pretty incredible. I mean, you know, I do think uh, like what we're I don't know if you guys feel this way. It's it is this amazing gift to be

able to do what we do for a living. It is confusing to like have these uh you know, jumping from kind of group to group or society to society, of like feeling like it's like a high or being a drug addict and building a life where it doesn't always feel like a high, but you're taking care of yourself and making deep connections with people that last I don't know, I learned so much, um really falling in love with uh him, I don't know, and it was terrifying,

continues to be terrifying. It's still completely terrifying having Oh my god, I mean because then all of a sudden, it's like, wow, a real thing that's outside of myself, you know what I mean, Like I think that something some One of the things I love about this book is there is a tension between um, you know, I'm really growing to believe in myself and growing to be the type of person who can say I deserve this, I want this, I'm asking for this, I'm going for this.

But also you know that tug of war that is, but there's the you, there's the other you that needs to be taken care of and like that wants to connect with someone and put roots down, but it's just like, but like, I only have one chance for this, and or it feels like that, and there's that tension between that person they tell you you want to be and almost working up to that, and then you know those moments where you look over at someone at a dinner table and you know, in this moment you share that

and like a soul connection that feels like almost not tenable when you want to work, work, work, work, work, because you've been given the opportunity, you know, yeah, yes totally. And I think do you guys feel this way that you know, being in this phase that we're in where uh, in your career you can okay, here comes a metaphor. I think about the part in Aladdin where he has to go in down into the cave of Wonder or

whatever and not touch anything but the lamp. It's like and I think when um, I was doing the theater for ten years to an audience of no one, you know or whatever, there was a lot of feeling invisible

and feeling like, funk, this sucks. And now there's so much more opportunity to like reader and holding my iPhone, like participate in the parade of your like in the validation or the there's just more opportunity to like sit and have a little more candy or like have your brain be a little more eaten by the reception of

your existence in the world. And I I just I'm so nervous about that and superstitious of like this part is gonna end, and the things that are going to last are the things like looking up and seeing Cosmo looking back at me. Those things you know, it's possible to like fuck up. I don't know, Like it's all out of the lamp. I'm like, we just gotta like totally celebrate ourselves and root for ourselves. But you gotta not stay too long at the at your own parade,

because your brain is going to be eaten. Like like when I do a talk show, I'm like, you can watch it once one time like or I know you were talking about the Emmy's bone and feeling kind of gross post it just it's it's also not I don't know, I'm all over the place with topics like a it's not a healthy it's it's super strange. Yeah, yeah, And you know what to what I try to remind myself is that you are the only person watching it this closely,

you know what I mean? Like that whenever, like whenever I feel like there was a moment in something that I didn't get right or like especially like now that And I will say I did identify with this book probably a lot more than I would have a few years ago. And also in re listening to our episode a few years ago, I actually like it was like listening to it with new ears because I've been through a little bit more. I think Bowen has as well.

I think our just careers progressed a little bit more so now I understand when you say things like when you were talking about like the publicity of it all and the taking of pictures and the showing up to events and that part of it. You do like when you get it, it's it's like demystifying in a way.

That could be demoralizing, but that is also kind of freeing because it's just it does make you realize, like, you know, me, like slaying every second of this talk show appearance, or like looking good in this picture or being invited to this event is actually silly, you know what I mean. It's still think about. It could be fun. I have fun doing all of it, but when you see the smoke and mirrors, they are so that Yeah, that's what I was getting from. Yeah, And not only

are there things silly, but they're deceptive. And I'm gonna extend the thing of what Betty you talk about with like the thing and like like everything being set up so that like the work is done for you to achieve that connection. Um like like I'll just say like for stuff that I've done, and like you know, there's there there are only so many products that I've done so far, so people can like use deductive reasoning. But it's like I had like a showman's and I was

like I really bought it. For a second. We were making each other playlists, we were really like talking as if we were like mat and I was like, wait a minute, I have to back it up. But I'm saying, like all all of these other little things as part of like if you get lucky enough to work somewhat consistently at a certain exposure or like brightness, like these things like the work gets done for you in a way like like someone picks out your your dress or

your suit. Someone picks out like the things like the talk shows you go to things, things are like done for you in such a way. Maybe this is what is this where you're getting? Is this what you're talking about? It's like this is gonna end, like the work will not always be done for me, and so therefore I have to do my own legwork in terms of like

making sure my partner is okay, my child is okay. Yeah, yeah, And it's it's just easy to like things that they feel like they are registering as a ten in the same way. Are are different, Like you know, maybe the Showmance wasn't you know, lasting, but I do think, like, I mean, how did you guys meet? You know, it's

this is very lasting? You know it's there. It's it's almost like this I feel it about having a daughter, where I uh, it's like this contract with the devil I signed of like you've been living on a and I feel being an actor too. It's like even living on a scale of you thought you were living one to ten, you're you've been living four to six. You're about to feel what tens and ones are. And I like signed, I was like, okay, I want the tens and the ones are in unbelievable and it, you know,

it makes me feel that way about the world. To having her, I'm like simultaneously like doom, scrolling about how much time we have left on earth literally and being like, I mean, is there God? I didn't think there was, Like maybe God exist, Like I have so much hope and so much fear at the same time, And I think that way, you know, being an actor too, it's like, you know, I have a friend who works a cubicle job and he's like, I hate lunch in my car

because I hate my coworkers. It's fine, like you're not sobbing with the people that you You're not holding your hands and talking about your childhoods and making playlists like you know, I'm not that you have to be an actor to have deep connections with people, but I think

it is, like it's wild how fast it happens. Yes, yeah, but this deal that you make, like I'm gonna I'm gonna like play on the edge of um the safety of my ego and health and whatever in making all these connections along the way and like a little parade for myself. But I'm it's like a risk every time. I know. What's what's so funny is like I feel it happening even now I'm working a job right now, and I just so happened have fallen in love with a couple of people like up here, like I genuinely

love and adore them. It's literally just a thing of like I don't know, I feel like now that I've done a few projects where like I too have gotten really emotionally wrapped up in a few people, like I do try to set a boundary now because you know that like it's true that you'll be talking about like oh, when did you lose your virginity? When was your first kiss?

When was your this? When was your that? Like in a way that like yeah, is unique not knowing like what their apartment looks like, where they're from, or what's the middle name. Like there's just this bypass that yes, yeah, yeah, it's the best and it's sucking. Its dangerous. Yeah, I mean it'll break your heart. It has you know, like it.

I mean like it's and then it's weird like too, because it's like you do something with someone and in the case of if it's on a platform where they're actually gonna put work into people seeing it, you then get back together with them to promote it, and you're this weird other version of yourself that's not in a

makeup trailer talking ship with HMU. It's someone who's in like head to toe Todd Snyder and like has someone named Jessica doing their makeup, and like then you're talking to them getting ready to do this thing, and it's like it's like you worked together as kids in a treehouse, Like, oh my god. And then if on this part I fall and you hit is it stupid? If we do one where you hit me in the face with it, and like see like, oh my god, you were the

same kind of kid I was. And then when you see each other for press or whatever, you're no longer sit in the treehouse. You're like sold out adult and seeing them like that and you like that it's like, oh, now we're on a panel in silks and this. I don't want you to see me like this or me It's it's like it's like they knew the five thirty am makeup trailer you and now they're seeing the seven pm cocktail party for the thing you right, like, well,

but what about that thing were you know? Yeah? Yeah, and you're not like allies in the same thing anymore. It's like back out to the wolves, Yeah, very much, the wolves. It's heartbreaking to even talk about to even hear you guys describe a bit, well, you get to I don't know that is I guess the cool things

like you genuinely. I always do this thing where I say genuinely instead of generally, and I'm working on it, but genuinely and generally go back each and every year to like which is I think so cool and honestly, Betty.

Another thing I'm thinking of is like the fact that there was a season four of Glow that was going to happen in the community of actors that I know you love so much, and then all of a sudden they just say, never mind stop and also we're not going back like that didn't get to have like a an ending, you know, like yeah, yeah, and there are two episodes that exists, like we shot two Yeah, so crazy, No,

I know it was. It was painful, so strange. I watched a few episodes of it again today just because I in listening to the episode, I remembered how much I loved it. And I did watch season two episode before, which is My Girl's Showcase, and I just loved it. What a great show. What a shame we didn't get to see more. What a shame. Oh, you want to

know what you've seen? I went back and watched Matt was when Alison Body's character comes back from like just the rapey hotel room with the work exactly, and then Debbie and then and then Betty's character is like there's there's a line reading and this is what this is, and and hearing and seeing Betty describe herself as making too many faces and like that being like a bad thing, and like you there's a line reading where um, Alison goes, so I went to his head? So like she was like,

so yeah, he made a pass at me. And then Betty does a line reading of it's three words, three words, Okay, there's like ten faces where she goes, what did you do? Like, it's just the worst. What did you do? And then Alison goes, I left, and then Betty goes, Debbie goes, you left, Like it's just it's it's these, it's these, it's these crazy, not crazy, it's just these like amazingly dense and it's it's in the writing, it's in the

fucking book. It's like it's so dense, Betty, Like everything you give out is just so such a rich cake. I mean, you're so good, You're such like a monster. You're such an enormous well of talent. I want to tell you, so we haven't seen you since then, I believe, I, like, you know, reached out and was emphatic, but like I never watched movies like The Hunt because I really can't like it. But when I tell you, I gripped the sides of my sofa and like the parts that I

could handle. I sat on the sofa and watched, and then I ran to the back. Jared will tell you I ran to the back of the living room and watched, like peeking up from the kitchen. But I did watch the whole thing. But I was literally on my feet running around screaming. Scared me so much. But you eight the Hunt. Oh my god, you were so brilliant, and all the readers like, if you haven't watched The Hunt, you can you can like get it. I think ye Netflix,

I think so. I think wonderful video free with ads if you want, if you want that. But your chapter about the hunt is also incredible. I mean, like I didn't know all that was going on, but yeah, what just checking in now, like the hunt of it all, like being at the center of that, and then also feeling like it just was something that that then passed like that had to feel so surreal. It's I'm sure

you guys have had your versions of it. I like, okay, basically the cliffs Notes version is I was doing, um, a dog's purpose to in Winnipeg, you know, as we all know, no needs on your shoulder. Yeah yeah, I got that so dark, um and being like okay, this is this is which whatever, No, no disrespect to that that art forum. But I was like, you know, maybe I'm now and I was playing the mom of a she was twenty five years old and I was thirty two in The Dog Movie, where I was a drunk

mom screaming at eagles. Um, I can't believe and I've made this hail Mary audition tape for the lead in this movie, and they were like, oh, you know the reason that we want an unknown. I love when they say an unknown to your face, like you're a mentor or something. Yeah. Um, because everybody dies at the beginning. We'll just put famous people in those roles and then you'll be like the secret surprise lead. Um. And I

thought really hard for the job, got the job. Glow wasn't going to let me out, and so I spent months writing letters to fight for keeping the job, and then uh whatever, and then did the job, loved the job, and then it was misrepresented on the internet. I would say, like the trailer made it seem like it wasn't a

satire whatever. The dude who was the president at one time tweeted about it, and I got thousands of death threats and Fox News got my cell phone number and my address and it was like this weird thing of and then Universal pulled the movie and canceled it, and it was this uh and it was like my favorite

thing I'd ever done, just sort of stupidly creatively. I was like, but my opus is locked in there, like and it was sort of learning the lesson of does it doesn't matter if the if the world class like if the world sees it happened, like if happened, it happened, and um, and then you know it came out eventually

and no one remembered it at all. That it's it's so crazy when the Internet ships itself over you in a negative way and then just the tides of the Internet washed away and the person remembering it is you, yeah, oh yeah, you have a line in the book here like um, so it's I forget what the first half is. But it's like, you know, controversy, Like with controversy, the

Internet goes crazy with redemption. It's like redemptions silent, redemptionous quient. Yes, I was like, damn that that is That is sort of the that is sort of like the dynamic profile of that kind of thing where it's like there's no release or maybe the release is like the the sort of blowout anger of it all, like the collective like the outrage and then like there's no there's no balancing of that ledger like in people's minds, which is kind of awful, but it I mean it came and watch

their team. I remember I remember what it was. It was like my first lockdown, sit down watch. I remember, like I watched Gray Gardens at the original I was like, let me just get a feel for like what being

in the house is like. Um, and then and then I remember watching The Hunt and I will never ever, ever, ever, ever forget ever forget before you shoot Amy Madigan in the face cigarettes in Arkansas like cost six books, you fucked up, bitch, and then you kill can Just like when you're doing a movie like that that is so gory,

like how much of that is practical? And are you freaking out like like like or did you start of like because you were in the zone like you you went away because that is a That was a really wild movie. Yeah, yeah, it was wild. It was not a lot of practical blood at all. Okay, the I mean the fight stuff was weirdly, glow felt more like at the end of the day, your body, it's like, hey,

what do we do for a living? That was crazy more just I mean I trained a lot for The Hunt, but glow was it just felt like you were in a car accident over and over and over and over again. Um, and you realize that stunt people like even though they're they're like Olympians or whatever. But their job is to hurt themselves. It's not like you find a way to secretly not hurt yourself. It hurts so much and it gets harder and harder every passing year. Yeah, because you

just have to keep doing it. Like that's never not going to be a part of the show glow. Yes, right, yeah, But I will say there is a scene at the end of The Hunt which is like it rivals Beyonce and Ali Larder as the greatest greatest face off in the history of believe. I mean, Hillary Swank and Betty Gilpin absolutely kill each other. Yeah, it's so good and

you never have to do that again. For me, Matt, to watch a movie that you don't enjoy like or the genre, you get you get scared, and then do you keep getting scared, like thinking about it, like, well,

I'm just very sensitive to like shocking violence. But the thing is about The Hunt is it so gets you ready for that tone literal seconds into the movie, which I mean, I don't think I've spoiling anything, but like literally everyone dies and the pretty much the beginning, and then like Betty has fallen the lead so like just to see Ema Roberts's head get blown off, like I was just like, oh my god, and I screamed and then like honestly it was like it was like then

like the Amy Madigan part did happen. And I was like, all right, I guess I'm just living in this world because part You're like, oh, this is this is to be a joy ride. This is gonna be like not a joy ride, but it's gonna be fun for us. Yes, And also I will put myself through pain for an actress tor divorce, you know what I mean, like an

actress sorter force. I will I will suffer great, great harrowing um inconvenience like like even like you know, I was thinking about watching Black Swan again the other day and I was like, remember that part where when herself in the face so then she turns into that late foreman. I'm like, yeah, I can put myself through that for an actress tort of force again for yeah, what about did you want for an actress worter force the Tony Colette movie. Um, I don't do that Hereditary and I

will watch mid midsmar either. Sorry, really I can't do it. No Ariaster is furious. Probably, I think you could do mid Somar. I don't like hearing movies and I, yeah, I think so. I think I could do mid Somar. I've heard that Midsmar is like beyond the Pail. I think Hereditary Match should see I think Match is the hereditary force, sure, because it's like camp again. No, no, I think it is so like the moment where things get bad. I've heard about that. It's it's it's it's unforgettable,

like and come off. Yeah, it's not even when the head come off. It's when discovers the next morning, oh yeah, yeah yeah, or when there's when she's up in the corner. I remember being in the in the audience. Writer Doyle and I saw it together in West Hollywood and someone went because it's the part where someone's in the corner of the screen like this and no people from her saying that noise. We were like, what is the can

do it? Like? I wish I wish it was a thing that I like was like, yeah, it'll be so fun. Come on, guys, and like you go in like with happy girl friends and sit there and order pizza and like have popcorn and you hide behind the popcorn buck getting you throw out at each other like so fucking cute, and line of the movies like and it's scary woo like I can't I freak out. I'm up screaming and my my shoulders go to my head and I'm like in physical pain. I wake up really sore. The next day.

I understand. I'm I got Have you seen Barbarian yet, Betty? I really want to see it. It's supposed to be amazing, it's supposed to be great, It's it's it's it's an Airbnb horror. I mean, I don't like, she doesn't like it, but I am realizing if there's a female Torta force, I do. I do, Yes, I believe. I believe Barbarian is a female tod force. That's all I'll say. Anyway,

That's yeah, that's all. I was going to bring up the palace because they feel like this is a very pertinent thing to not to get like exclusively show busy

in this episode. I feel like it's it relates to like everything else we've talked about, because I feel like you write about how you conceive of this palace in showbizuere like they let you in like you know, you know, if you if you whatever, like make all the right choices or whatever, if things line up for you in the right ways, then you like touch the moon right like that, You're you're sort of breathing verified air. You're

like kind of with all these other people who are incredible. Um, but I feel like with the way that like the business works in the way and like the work that is required of let's just say actors who like have to simulate all of these relationships and intimacies and all these things. Like I don't know, I feel like if you if you're in the palace for too long, then

that's also like destructive. Then that's all that is also something that like is irreversible and like you're study, you're you're you're imprisoned in the palace for the rest of

your life. We were talking about this idea of the palace, which is like for everyone that's that's listening that hasn't yet read the book, which is this idea of like the fancy level of Hollywood, which is like the parties and then nomin nations of it, all the award shows and like the actual attention that comes with is you know quote unquote succeeding in the entertainment industry as an actor, where it looks like they're projecting you back out to the world as like a shiny thing, you know what

I mean, Like that the concept and this idea that like does it exist at all? Like the feeling is like you're almost there. One more thing and you'll be there right around the corner. One more thing, like one more financial bracket or one more thing on your IMDb page and you'll be let in. And then once you think you're being let in, there like like through that door and up those stairs. Um. You know, I think that it's been a particularly strange you know, being an actress.

They are just more visual smoke and mirrors, opportunities to just look different from how you woke up in the more in terms of like being on a talk show or being on a red carpet or something, there's just more uh or Actors sort of become this um like being on set. It's like you're a bulletin board for every other department's work to post on. It's not because you're a very special Mariantoine at pretty pretty princess who

deserves attention. It's like you just become the bulletin board for more people's art or work like lighting and makeup and costume and um, and that can sort of weirdly bleed into your life outside of set, that you become this uh I don't know, like um, like a heightened version of yourself made by a bunch of other people, which feels like I like my face better when a professional artist has done it up and and my hair and my clothes and you know, I've never been It's

like I I almost I feel like some of my creative window into being an actress because I wasn't good at that stuff, because I was really like that girl's best friend carrying her books. And now I'm like, cause playing as her because I've presented my notes on her as an actor, and now I thought, I'm like, if I become her and I stopped, well, I stop the ability to play her. Yeah, it's like that thing of just your being too like it's the fear of being

too aware of yourself. Yeah, and and like yeah, there there does seem to be like I remember in our last episode with you, like you talked about being in l A and like some people are just after this for maybe a different reason than you are, and you're someone who actually enjoys being these people and showing your work because of your you know, time observing them and

like what you get to channel through them. But then all of a sudden they do push you out and they're like, this part is also important basics grand for a publicist, you know what I mean, right, And it's like and then you're like, wait, this doesn't track, but it better because that means more of the stuff that you liked or so they tell you, you know what you know, so it becomes this like very weird like

system you participate in. And one of my favorite things you say in the book, which is something I didn't realize until we went to their Critics Choice Awards when Bone was nominated, is the little line that you get into get to the carpet. This is like something I'm observing,

like about the reality of the situation. I thought when I was a little kid watching award shows, that's like, oh, they pull up in the limousine and there they've arrived to the red carpet, and look at them take to the red carpet and people are taking photos of them. They look stunning as people shout their name, they moved to be interviewed by you know, Ryan's secrests or Ryan Seacrest type, and they go in, have a full meal

and then win or gracefully lose the award. They drink on the rest of their night, and mary they get a full night sleep and continue working as happy actors. Meanwhile, it's like you pull up to the red carpet and then you do. You get on a little line that actually can be a very big line of people waiting to get their photos taken and their publicists, and it's

just so interesting because it is this thing. It's like, oh, to two people in front of me, there's Juliet Lewis also standing staring at nothing, and it's just like miss and magic Mountain line of like corporate roller coat. You're like what and but you've been spending two hours getting yourself so hyped up and like this is my night, like this is the whole world has gathered to see me in this night, and then you realize how low on the totem pole you are and how Yeah, it's

it's just corporate prom Yeah. But I think my little theory on top of this theory is that like the people on the top floor of the palace. The people who have like been there for a very long time, or people are people of high esteem and honor, are not even that thrilled to be there themselves and any of that. That That that's very that's not a new idea, and like a lot of this part of the business is demystified to everybody now, but like um or has

been for a long time. I just feel like, you're you're, everyone is right to disengage from this as soon as possible, as soon as they understand what's going on, turn their way. Yes, yeah, completely.

You know what's funny is like I remember standing in that line and thinking that it's that crazy feeling of like you do you get all excited and then you get in the line, and I was with Bowen, so it's like it's like, oh wow, like now we all have to stand here and wait to get on this carpet and have that thing go on in our head of like do people even want to see me here? I'm not going out there. It's insane that I'm going out to look at the people around me. They're actually

like people that people know I'm not doing this. And so there was like a hair brained idea that I would like go out and take a picture with Bowen. And I turned to Boone and I was like, look, the people don't want to see me. I'm getting the funk out of here. And he was like, God, God, I wish I could go with you. And I was like, yeah,

well see you. So I went in and had a drink and saw sort of like for some reason, I was in there, and I saw sort of the upper echelon of the palace, and when I tell you, Will Smith and Jada Pinkett Smith walked right in front of me and they glided past me wordlessly. I just breathed, you look incredible to Jada as she goes by, and she just looked and sort of gave me eye contacted a slight smile, and I thought, Wow, the peak of Hollywood glamour, the Palace, the Palace, the King and the Queen.

Weeks later, he would slap him out on television, right right, So there is a storm underneath. But don't you feel like at those things, seeing people even though it's still the palace and grows seeing people who you have made those connections with love it It's like, oh, there is yeah, it's it's you can find little pockets of treehouse in the in the palace, but and I do think those are it is different. Even though they're fleeting and strange,

it is still really meaningful. I mean, we mean friends that night like we we we like is not the award shows? Yes, yes, yes, it's sometimes funny though who those people are too? Like you know, we were sitting at the table and I literally looked across the room and Molly Shannon was over there and I couldn't run bowing over to Molly Shannon quick enough, like to think of Molly Shannon being that person in the room the let's yeah right right, yes, yeah, And when Mark Marin

I immediately start. I never thought that it would be that way. Isn't that funny? Yeah? The Haven people like the Haven people are always surprising. Do you guys find in in these three years where your careers have soared, do you find it like, especially comedy wise, do you find that success has made your job easier of like like going on stage and doing it or are you more in your head or are you more like I have the I know I have the room so I

can do the jokes I want when you go first. Okay, the my whole Emmy's breakdown last week, which thank you everybody for um listening to that. It was very self indulgent that I would even bring it up on the podcast.

But that's that's an example of like, it's not getting easier of me second guessing this very basic thing that I thought I was good at, that I am expected to do UM and just being like and having this full dysphoria with it, being like I don't, I don't, and I say dysphorias, and like other people have been like, no, like you, I don't know why you think that, And I guess I'm trying to move past it by calling

it that, but I think that it his his. It was literally the fact that I had a suit, I had a tux on, and that my hair was that my makeup for and was late, and so therefore I was like studying examining my face and my hair and being like, I don't look right, and it's and it has nothing to do with the capital t W work, you know, like it has nothing to do with that. And that's what I think I'm the most frustrated about is that I'm like, I'm hung up on something that

I shouldn't even be hung up on. But therefore, like on a meta level, that is the frustrating thing about being in a place like that, And then I don't know that's that's I'm still kind of scattered about it. Matt,

what do well? For me? It's similar because I also find myself distracted sometimes, but I think I do it to myself and just like thinking about the actual work itself, Like I feel so grateful to have these opportunities that I have, Like it was always my dream to book a show like I love that for you, Like it was always my like dream to be able to do a movie with my friends and stuff, and like, you know, it was my dream to be able to one day like say, I have a comedy special and that I

have these opportunities, Like I get a little in my own way when I think about sucking them up. So I guess, like that's where what it is for me is. It's just like, yes, of course I have all the same um things around, you know, the star machine of it all, you know what I mean. I look at it and I'm like sometimes I look at my own Instagram and I'm like, does it look like a funny person's Instagram or just look like someone who's posted a

lot of pictures of himself. So I have a lot of that, And I definitely think that because it was my first experience in that machine like that, I've learned from it, and you know, next time I'll be able to, like, you know, keep the beast alive a little bit more

than just like you know, picture um. But I also think at working at my job, like I've had other act like Jennifer Lewis called me after we wrapped the show and had to come out and she said, I couldn't tell you this while we were shooting, but I want to tell you now you're too hard on yourself.

And just hearing it from someone like her who really apparently why watched and really apparently cared, I was just like, you know what, now, I think I'm actually ready to hear that and be go a little bit easier on myself, because I think it's harder when you know you can

do it. And I say this not as someone with like, not in an arrogant way, but I know I've worked hard and I know I'm talented, and so I just don't want to mess up the opportunities, and so that gets more difficult when the opportunities are definitely going to be seen, and when you are standing with people you really respect and want to impress. You know, we're not

in basements anymore. Um, before two people, It's like, you know, these are real opportunities to show yourself, and what you have to remind yourself is that you're only going to access the maximum of that opportunity by just letting yourself

be because you are why you're there. Yeah, and almost like I find it so interesting, um honestly watching uh, certain people in old episodes of SNL before they were like stars of SNL and like like I forget who it was, Kristen Wig or Will Ferrell or something like their first skits they're not getting huge laughs because they don't like have the room already, like like the people aren't already Like what's it gonna say? It was? He gonna say, Oh my god, I knew it was gonna

be amazing, Like winning people over from zero. It's it takes a different set of tools. And I think like probably in high school that's what we all did. Like I remember saying a joke under my breath, no one laughing, and then the jock next to me saying it louder and getting a huge lad and being like, fuck off, man, you just have the thing that I can't get, like like the social poll of like the cafeteria being like, whatever you do, we already are on board with you.

And so I wonder, I wonder if you're listening back to yourself from three years ago, if it's like that shift of like what's been at it is you have the room now, and there's there's a difference between like letting your brain get drunk on your follower account or being at the palace and over serving yourself, or and like the other thing is shedding a skin that's not serving you anymore, of like you don't need the self hate to or being hard on yourself to like get

the joke in sideways, because like you're at a different fucking table now, and it's so finding a way to still be able to sleep at night and be like I'm always gonna hate myself, I was gonna be hard on myself, and I'm always gonna come and think sideways. But maybe there's a different Maybe my voice has dropped for a good reason. Oh my God, I feel like this whole episode has been me quoting your own book

back at you. But I did right down one line which was so resonant and very important and it's exactly what you're saying. But you were like, my favorit kind of work is the weird silly work that like, UM people make when um they're uninhibited, and that work never gets made. If the loudest voice in your head is maybe I should shut up, maybe I should be quiet, I've been living with that voice for like the past year. I think I think, I think this last season on

US and Now, I had a great season. I was so lucky um to do everything I did. But I think, I think, I think maybe something happened, like after that second season that I had where I was like, this was wow, I never expected these things to happen to me, um, And it felt like I was really like earning earning like whatever, like my key because I was still like young and scrappy and starting out and it was like you know COVID shows where we only had a half full house, and I was like, I really gotta I

really gotta like go for it. And then maybe I was like resting on my Laurels a little bit this this last year. But I feel like there was that also left room for that voice to creep in and be like you should not do that that like you probably shouldn't. And I think this just applies to like

my whole like comedic output in general. Like I haven't but on stage, I haven't, um like in front of like a you know, like like as myself, like in like you know, in front of an audience really and I'm I'm really excited to change that soon with stuff and uh yeah, anyway, but but but that but thank you for putting in those terms, Betty. But you're also such a surgeon in terms of the way you your comedy is. So it's so exact in the way that

you've observed all walks of life. And I think that that probably it's one of the myriad of reasons why you're so brilliant, but also maybe a reason that like you can't turn that off, like if you're if you're not taking apart the syllables of um an alexis Nyer's phone call, it's like that turn onto your own self of like if I don't have an engine going forward into something, maybe it turns, which I mean we all have that version of like the wheel gets put on

its side and it's like a tunnel downward, like and now it's really dark. Um, but I'm so much but as an audience member, I'm so much more interested in your kind of comedy and art and uh as opposed to like I feel like some comedians are just it's like comfort porn, like you're watching someone like I feel like that's why Louis c k was like, you're just watching someone be so like no difference between if they were talking to their best friend in their kitchen or you.

And it's like, oh wow, how interesting to see someone be just so inherently themselves. But there's a point where I don't know, that gets a little stale. It's weird that we do any of the things we do and there's something that special or like, I don't know, there's there's nothing that's exceptional about this work except that you, as an individual have to negotiate your own let's just

say narcissism. I know it's a clinical term, but like narcism with all of the all of the offerings and the spoils that like the industry can give you I think that's like, yeah, that's that's what we're all talking. But but another element of it that you do say in the book is that a lot of it is fun, you know what I mean, Like it's fun. I mean, here's the thing about Cinderella. She wasn't the sad emoji

leaving the ball. That's not the emoji she was. She she was this emoji and describe for the reader's bow. She Oh, she was that side I like smirk, and she was a little sided. She was a little bit yeah, and she was also a little bit a little what is face melting? Face melting? I think her face was melted because there had been so much magic, Like I

didn't know that was possible. He's just Christ literally and then also a little bit horny for the sorry but prince Prince, and then definitely smirking at the possibilities of a new world. And I think that is the thing about going to these things, because you do leave a little bit like drunk and giddy, and you're like, oh my god, I talked to X y Z and like, and you buzz a little bit because you get a glimpse into that horny little world and then which it

is a horny little world. Yeah yeah, and at which I do love about it, but like um, and then you giggle away and you're like, oh my god, like I got to like look into the fish bowl, but it's so different. And also you know, to like coming up as a little kid who like did read magazines, like I remember reading US Weekly and laughing my ass off to the fashion police, wanting to know what everyone was up to, you know what I mean, Like these people that I saw doing something I wanted to do,

What were they up to? What were they like, what was going on in their lives? And then you get into fish bowl and you're like, oh, these are just people with varying degrees of like you know, whatever is going on. And another thing about the stylist of it all, like the pr of it all is. I remember like reading those Uspeklee like fashion police things and if people wore a bad outfit and we're like like clock throwing

a bad outfit. I remember me as a little kid used to think, yeah, they're so stupid, Like they're so stupid looking ugly, and it's just like, you know, any of us were the stylist could show up looking bad at any time, I never have loved my people, but like it could happen to the best, smartest, most talented individuals,

and it has. But I remember thinking, like as a little snarky kid who probably would be on Reddit these days, a little shutter to think, yeah, what an idiot Laura flt Yeah, what a fool like she t bos from TLC. Really sucks because she showed up and I didn't like her garment, Like dancing in this movie or show. It's a little show, but it's an episode where we do do choreography and I have been doing it in heels, which I have to say sucks. Wow, Ginger Rogers behind

Oh yeah, I know. But coreo, the coreo of it all. I find choreography to be excruciatingly hard. I don't know that part of my brain doesn't exist. It's also just like when you know, when you ever watch choreographers talk to each other and they start to talk in like numbers, and it's like on the two and the three, and I think the three should actually become twos or should they stay fours? Let's have it so, let's have um, let's have Matt still be two and then where everyone

else is gonna be one. No, that doesn't make sense. Matt still be a four. And I'm like, literally, my brain is soup. My brain is the melting emoji. And I'm like, Queen, I don't know, oh what you said, and I don't know what it is? Are you singing in it? Not in this? No, it's I can't say. Just because the email, I was like, don't like, don't you dare tell me when you're on the show. I was like, okay, I think it was just like Netflix being like platform. Yeah, no, but I'm I'm dancing. When's

the last time you did choreography? God, the last time I did choreography? For that um Apple show Roar Um did an episode and we did a dance in the street at the end, and I just like in in high school, I would have semi leads and musicals and always the dance teacher would be like, and then we know that you take an eight count back to the back of this wave and we have the dancers come and cover you because you are not a mover and step touch in the back. Yeah exactly. Oh No, that's okay,

It's it's really, it's it's a whole. It's a whole. But do you have to do a lot for SNL? He learns like a little routine, a little routines. But it's that they'll bring in like a choreographer who will have to choreograph the easiest thing for everyone to do. Otherwise, y'all we all kind of get get getting angry. Um wait, what can I ask you about this new Damon lindelof show you're you're in. I think you guys are going to really love this show. I love Damon. You're talking

to a lost girl. Oh um, yes, it's I also cannot say too much, but I am a nun and I am it's um, yeah, it's a I think that it might be a show that readers and their nonreader siblings could enjoy together. Maybe it's going to bring together and maybe parents. I can't tell who what sect of people were going to make upset that someone might get upset. Someone's going to get upset because you're a nun sort of up to no good. I'm not. I don't know.

I don't know. You can't say so chic to not be able to say, to be on a Damon Linda love show and not be able to say but We're not a dream that is the dream about about a David lindelof Project. I texted, and I'm sorry, god, I can't because he this is the nicest man. He texts me every week after a show after he goes what bow he goes bowing? That was amazing anyway, I texted, I take it upon myself to text him this week. I was like, I just finished Betty's book. You must

read it if you haven't. Isn't she the best? And then he goes, I love her to death. It really sucks that she can write circles around me and still be a brilliant actress. Oh my god, I mean, it's like you are the best actor. And also like this is so good, like you were very busy to give home, to give hours long homework is not not even it was it was literally not homework because it genuinely, genuinely like enriched every I loved reading every page of it. I mean, it's so funny and it's so good. I

just like, I mean, I can't say enough like. And it also like it must have been really fucking hard. Yeah, it was, well, I don't know. I I wrote it right after Mary was born and I think I was still on just adrenaline literally from childbirth, and I wrote it pretty fast. It was I think writing it in quarantine was the only way that it could have. Like, I think I was just so self conscious about not being like I had such who cares that? Who cares?

Shut up energy around writing in particular that um, it really felt like I wrote it when we when we the world is over, when we're no more like we were going to be inside forever. And so it's like one last shout to the wave of the tsunami before

it crashes on all of us. Here's the book and the tsunami dissipated its like ah published, I just like as someone who like dreams of like doing this one day, Like I just I was so blown away and inspired by it because and I will say again, like the character of you is so well drawn, because you are on every page and your voice is so clear, and like you really you're you are such a narrator of

life in this. But what really comes through for me are all the characters, like for example, the character of Max. You know what I mean, that person that person that just like like really gets you know what I'm saying,

Like those people you need along the way. They're so viv did um and so that would be like, I think the thing I walk away from this like really really feeling like I learned something about and like really inspired by was just the way in which I feel like even when you reference someone later on, like I feel like that they were my old friend or like, oh my god, yeah when that happened in our life, that was that was tough of it all. Don't bring the max of it all up to me, thank you.

Oh my god. I have like twenty copies of the book that the publisher sent me to like quote give out to friends, and it's just sitting in my car because I'm like the thought of walking up to someone that I and I leave I'm filming in l A for the next two weeks, and then leave and I'm not bringing them. I'm like, I'm just gonna literally leave it on the side of the road, I think, and the heaven like a little surpassor whoever. I mean, I don't know what a beautiful plan and um maybe time

bo it might be time. But very quickly, I want to mention one last thing in the book which I really stayed with me, which was, um, you talking about like going to a Spanish olive oil factory with your family, and like your dad so intently having to listen to this man like give a terrible tour about the place and he's and then your dad is like, it's like doing a matinee love, which is like this this person

is like bearing their soul the great people. Yeah, the olive oil factory had been in his family for generations.

And we were stopping off on this tour and you know all these fanti packed chicken nugget people that we were that we did not want to listen to a monologue about olive oil and the history of the olive And my dad was like, we have to listen to every syllable with our hands over our hearts, because we all know that feeling of like things that you have the audience in the palm of your hand and looking up and seeing looking at their cell phone or it's or or people are like I have to be. I

had to I had to go. There's something about like humanity that is so like distilled in that idea to me that I'm like, I'm like, I was like, funk, this is this is crazy anyway, And I think that those that's what makes those connections actually important and meaningful and not just bullshit of like those fleeting moments like I see you, I see you, I see you, even if it's like only one part of you, it's the

part that you thought that no one would see. So seeing someone you know wave to it like it's the most obvious part of you. It is. It is meaningful and more meaningful than Jada Pinkett Smith gliding by. Yeah. And also just like, oh my god, this is the end of the chapter where you read the letter that you had gotten from the kid that you did the play with. Just the end of that. I had to

put that. I had to put it down and walk around after that because that's just like I don't know, everyone like like we can we cannot be you must read it. And actually one of the chapters inspired and I don't think so honey. Oh my god, Oh I'm excited.

So this is why I don't think so honey. And start one minute segment that we do on Lost Culture which is a sort of an abbreviation for the podcast title Lost Cultures with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, and we do sixty second rounds on things that we no no no, no no no. Um to quote Destiny's child about this is Matt Rodgers. I don't think so many as time starts now, I don't think so honey boarding school. Don't hid there because no, I don't like any element

of it. And I will say this, I feel like I understand my boarding school friends a lot better now for having read this. To me. Feels like you just never get a moment of quiet and a loan to yourself, Like because you go to school with the people that that you, that inhabit rooms with, I understand me make close connections. But Mama, it's called boundaries. Honey boarding school being a place where boundaries thrive, it seems like you can never escape each other and yourself pause for a

moment of importance. And it's so important that you get some space, and at a boarding school you get no space. Also not for nothing, but I need to see my mom like that would have been the part that really broke me and stuff. I don't think so honey boarding school, Gus Hicky, my friend, I feel like I understand you better. You went to the school. Oh my god, the school, Oh my god. Oh I knew this and I always knew.

I always knew he had like that he went to boarding school, and then hearing about the school, I was like, I have to text my friend. I do think Gus was a day it in. Maybe what does that mean you only go for the day that? Or maybe no, maybe he was a border But I went to a house party at his house because you did. Yeah. Yeah, I got very drunk. Got pulled over on the way there for going, um, what I thought was ninety miles an hour in the fast one. I was going forty

two miles an hour in the fast wing. So and I pulled over on the left side for a For a lifelong stoner, you have like total recall. I was gonnay, there are big swats that are gone. Maybe it's that that's the part that got fried. Also, one of my favorite things that happens on Less Coltrisis is when Matt says something and then Bone just repeats it quietly. I realized that Matt has such a command of language and likely completely you do man right. It's the writer in you,

like you know how it HiT's the ear. You always find the exact right sequence of syllables that it hits the ear in a way that is indelible, and that's why people repeat your ship all the time. That's that's that's exactly what it is. And you you hold the like the feeling of when you're swinging, and your stomach flips like you hold us there for so long You're like, how is this so sustainable that this sentence is still happening?

I still feel butterflies in my stomach because I'm loving the sentence, and then the drop like how is it gonna land? Its okay, But here's the thing. I think, I thank you and I received that. I think I have a very colorful and dare I say, innovative way with words, but the words are not always right and

doesn't matter. And this is the surgeon, this is well, this is bone coming in with either a statement of what was incorrect for comedic effect because it is so wrong, or he'll come in and say, actually it's this and move on and I love it. And then there are sometimes like sometimes I will listen back to old episodes and I'll be like, I mean the mean it to give it yeah as a as a homage, Yes, yes, I love bowing. I miss you. I've been missing that a lot. I've been so we've been separated. When are

you guys going to get back together? Maybe holidays? New Year's that's too far away, so far away. We're thinking we actually we actually have sort of a loose um New Year's plan. It's gonna be a gag. We're thinking about doing Miami and then Orlando, Florida. Wow for the holidays, No Miami for New Year's and then post New Year's maybe we go up to Orlando and finally right this guardian to the coach starting that, He's like, great, isn't it frustrating that soon you're going to have a full

blown child that you have to take. I know, I am excited it to show her the new Little Mermaid? Do you follow? Is it? They have the range? On Instagram? They have the range or the what is it? Um, let's here for the choice. Yes, yes, yes, they have the range and there's their you better sing they have the range and you better Things are too like the craziest and there are people who are singing on top of arials. Oh the clip of part of your world

and harmonizing with it. I'm obsessed. Yeah, it's gonna give, it's gonna serve it's gonna eat, it's gonna slay. Okay, who I miss you? Um? Okay, Well, the creator of the show just texted me and said the dance is so fucking good. So my god. The Coreo YouTube's have made their rounds and apparently we're doing good work. Okay, just checking in. My favorite moment of the week, Bowen yangs. I don't think so, honey. I don't think so honey. Gum like, I'm not supposed to swallow you, but then

if I chew you, you run out of flavor? How's that work? What's that about? The gum technology has not progressed. There's been no change in gum technology in the last forty years. It's crazy. Ask anyone on the street what zilatol is. They'll not tell you because no one knows where it airs. What that is? Start advertising it on the gum and we were promised Willy Wonka levels of candy and gum innovation and we have not reached it. The most the biggest innovation in candy lately has been

maybe nerds clusters. They basically took the nerds rope, they cut it up into little chunks. It's the most amazing blend of textures in your mouth. Talk about a mouth feel. But gum, you're not doing anything new. You have not changed or mixed up Angila. I need you to Epita, give us something new. And that's one minute. This this, I'm not dragging you, but this ideology is what's going to lead to AI taking over. You do realize that, right. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying artificial AI is

the technology. Not all technology reaches of ideology. I'm saying it is ideologically are there's no AI in targeting the chocolate bacter mom ideology. It's this idea that things must progress. Let's stay on the merry go around. It doesn't have to be a merry go around on a roller coaster. Sometimes things can just be gum. It can run out you're not supposed to all the time. You're gonna hurt your jaw. Gum is out, lollipops are in, lollipops are back, Oh my god. First of all, I think the umbrella

could improve as well. Why are we the same eighteen forty model? Because I had this idea of like like city bikes, but for umbrellas like little chaos. Yes, when it's raining you go and then you return it. But the problem is the design of the umbrella sucks, and it would they would all break and you simply cannot be that it's going to come back in condition like better than you found it. I mean, like these umbrella.

But I just I don't think this thing of gum that never runs out of flavor is a good idea. I think it's going to lead to dark things. I think I think T MJ will go through the roof. I think technology has come far enough will then make it will then at least make gum edible, like at least like I'm not supposed to swallow you um, Yeah, I can't swallow you want to swallow gum? It's called

fucking starbursts. No, you never even thought about that, And that's why you said no one looked down So is because you hadn't even thought of starburst where you were like, why can't I swallow my gum? And pitched and pitched a fit. It's time to move on. It's a Sunday, Betty, Are you ready? I am? I I just I thought of it right before I realized I didn't have one.

I hope you haven't done this. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because you, as you've proven with the book, all the women in my brain are going to give it your own classic spin. Oh man, okay, this is Betty Gilpin's I don't think so, honey. Her time starts now. I don't think so, honey. The death of the standing ovation?

Where did we go wrong? A standing ovation is meant for when you are so overwhelmed and you your your life has been changed by a performance that you leap to your feet because you can no longer sit physically, and the whole group does it together, and it's it's a once a year maximum or or once a decade. I'm so embarrassed and like I my throat clothes thinking about it, by these fifteen minute long standing ovations whatever?

Like when when these movies are ending as everyone being like and now we have to fucking stand up for fifteen minutes? And who was very talented? All these people are very talented. We've we've hyperbolized ourselves into the sky. How are we supposed to think any compliment means anything anymore? It doesn't make sense. The guillotines are too sharp, the pedestals are too high. Let's meet in the middle with some truth. I don't think so, honey. The standing ovation,

So you are arguing for muted responses. No, I mean we're talking about yeah, sorry, choose when, choose when to do?

Like I remember my m my, my great uncle or something was like a Broadway producer and he was the first person who are one of the first people who helped move guys and doll balls to Broadway and talked about how when they first sang sit down your rock in the boat, like the whole audience was like they were going to rip their chairs out of the ground and lead to their feet, and they made him do it like four more times like in that performance and that and I know they did that with um You're

Gonna Love Me Jennifer Holiday, Like the standing ovation was so raucous that they were like, we got to do this song again, Oh my god. And I just like we've just the concept of the standing ovation and the compliment. We just it's too much. How do we know? How

do we know what's wrong and what's real? There were five when we saw a Funny Girl last week, and we did feel that they were earned, Like we definitely did leap up with everyone else, like you know what's cool would suck me up is like you're watching this movie that you're a part of whatever, Like are doing a show that you're a part of whatever. It gets a eight to nine minute Toronto International Film Festival or any of these film festival ask talking about the film festival.

But but this is what I'm saying is it's like then you walk out and the reviews hit and people are like, we didn't like this exactly exactly, stood and

clapped your hands wrong. Yes, yeah, yeah, And I feel like I have felt that change in the industry in terms of like while you're making something and then the immediate like the first people who see it like what we've done is we've changed film and yeah, and wait until you and so the hyper legal and then the first thing it hits is the Internet, which is the opposite of like you deserve to die. And then like a year later the truth emerges of like it's somewhere

in the middle. It's like people don't even really get exactly or like you didn't change the form, and you didn't you don't deserve the death penalty. You made a thing that's part good and part bad. There, yeah, but you're your whole stating ovation thing. Um, thank you for putting for putting Crazy for You back on the map in your book. That is an excellent musical musical. You

ever saw Crazy for You? Yes? With Jody Benson? Oh my god, yeah she wasnt Yes, And I cannot find the soundtrack is not on Spotify, not on iTunes, on neshing limids like what Disney's gone? Um No, her voice singing those gros one songs, unbelievable. There are two clips of it. But she is a talent, Like she's a talent. She really is fun. Wait, but did you this is a shot in the dark. But did you listen to her interview? Um, what that she did with Danny pelle

Grenow and everything iconic? You really should know. I heard you talking about it. But I have I have to such a nice like he asked such good questions about just like being a singer capital s hard are who then goes in to do this acting piece as like a child's cartoon and then just like getting there and just I don't know the human voice everyone, I've always thought that part of your world should be done as a woman realizing she is a terrible quarter like you

want you want seeing them abobs I've got. Oh my god, look at this. I'm crazy. I have to go the ocean. You think our compliments aren't real. No, no, my god, no, no, no no, no, no, when they're to me, I know that honestly, you know you know what. I haven't seen that that you just recently did that I'm really excited about, and I keep wanting to see it. But it is on stars, which is the only thing that was stopping because I don't have it. I want as starts. No one. Well,

I mean there's so many. There's so many like platforms now, and I already feel like I already feel like I have everything, and then something comes out that I really want to see and I'm like, oh, I don't have that one, Like like, there's so many. Do you guys have peacock Peacock? Because I love housework? Oh right, okay, great great great is a beautiful place. But none, none, none, it's gonna love love. I love peacock. Peacock got so

much of my actual because that's another thing. It's like you you you pay for all these streamers and then you actually sit like zoom out and think which one do I actually use like out there for me? Yeah? Am I TV plus though, or only when the Morning Show is out right right right right right? Yeah, by the way, I mean, I just can't wait for that. Oh my god, you need to get on that. I do, I do, I know, I mean like, I mean like Betty needs to get a role on it. Oh, you

need to it on that. Yeah, But you do know that. Every time I see a good show or see a good film, or like I'm thinking about even writing something, I'm always like, and how would Betty be in it? I literally I'm always like, Where's what's the part of the show that Betty could play? Like I do watch Morning Show and I'm like, where's Betty kept Betting in there?

It's because you're number one. Do a show where you have a long ponytail, and you're dresses Aaron Brackwitch and you're wrapped in silks by the door with a ship, and so can I ask your questions? So with me with this long ponytail and your vision of us when I sort of stow up to the bank bowen and silks? Is he also like is he presenting female? I think I'm bald? No, no, no, I don't think I think it's sort of like you're you dressed in and you're

dressed in purple to the sky. Yeah, okay, got it. Yeah, Well you know, I I every time I see Kate Hudson in the project, that's who I am. So that's I guess when I'm stomping around going to the bank, I'm Kate Hudson, right right, right, Yeah. It's just on a vision board. You're the piccolo Aaron Rockovich and we've got bassoon, purple silks, just things that I'm adding to the boards. I'm going to use this just like for my own subconscious like you know, like sort of like

as I'm working through something. Wow, amazing, thank you, Thank you guys. Well, well what else to say? I mean, this is it's it's such a great read, and like, honestly, if you want to just um be smiling at a book with full teeth, um pick up All the Women in My Brain, which is available now by our literal Um limitless guests. I mean, you're the best, and we're so happy that you came back. Thank you so much for having me. I love you guys so much. I really do love you. But we love you, love you.

But I wish. I really wish we could have been in the same because I remember there was like a loose thing where maybe we were all going to be in l A and then that so didn't happen. I know we will join together, We will join together. Yeah, I'll be back in New York in December. Yes, we will all join together in New York. But until then, bowen, what do we do at the end of every episode? And this is this is a throwback to your last episode,

I'm crossing. What did I change the key? No? I think I just my basement was too low into our basements are so much lower than they were three years ago, because of the years, because of the years. We didn't pick a title up? Should it be the years? Dot dot dot? I think? But that's not about that's about us. It's not about our No, no, no, but no, that's I approved gets in magic and anyway, happy you all shared it with that thought practice readers, Bye bye you love love you h