"New Depths and New Angles" (w/ BenDeLaCreme & Jinkx Monsoon)

like I'll take seven and a half. And then my thought I wanted to open with was are we excited about seven and a half or is that too big? Go? No, I think that's in the goldilocks zone. All right, Really you describe to me a dick that was like an anytime someone says baby arm, I go, oh, let's reconsider. Well, have I ever talked about the time I had text with a guy I bottom for a guy that had a baby arm and I'm swear to god, my asshole

made a noise like a Snapple cap was opening. It was like, and I also hit, I'm a riya know it. I was like, and we laughed and we could not keep having sex after that, but that's okay. We had sex later, probably about a week and a half later, seven and a half. Sure, why did you laugh? Because you guys bread a fact off of the cap and it was it was, um, did you know that ten percent of gate people go on? No, I want to

know this? Only ten percent? The market's bad. Well, it's ten percent of ten percent, it's percent of the world is queer. Right, So closing that loop, we're both excited about seven and a half. But if it's a baby arm and we make a noise like a soft drink, you can laugh it off and just get ready for later. So sort of that's now, that's a topic that's already been discussed on the podcast, and we're leaving it behind. Now let's move on to this new thing of how

many people in the world are queer. It was so often said ten percent, but I feel like this this number is changing. Well, yeah, I'm knowing, you know what, At least in this country, the sense is every ten years, So we're gonna have to wait for another seven years to figure out what the new status. I have not chucked. I just kind of pulled that number out because I think that sounds like roughly the right figure. I'm probably wrong. Can the census taker ask me how I express myself sexually? No?

Can they ask me that? Sometimes I go, how do these people know? Sometimes I fill out the census and they leave saying fag well, I'm sorry. I send back the census, going you're not getting anything out of me but the bare essentials. Yeah. I opened the door of the census taker and I crossed my arms like this, Well, go on, go on away, see what you can get out of me, bitch. I missed the census takers from twenty twenty because we were in the pandemic. We were

in lockdown and there was no sensus takers. Wow, but I remember were there. It's been a while. It's like Cannibalector once said. A census taker tried to test me once and I said, girl, it's the pandemic. Come back later. Anyway, Today is going to be a really fun episode of the pot. It's been a really incredible sort of week and a half. I have tattoos. Now, congrats? Are you? Are you aquaforing? What's Oh? You still have the thing

on the other one. Well, they told me four days we went to an iconic tattoo artist Boonen came and I got a little house on my wrist to get a matching tattooth house. And I got this twenty two on my other risk to denote a powerful year, a powerful year and a powerful Taylor's Swift song as well. Producer Becca says in the chat they came in twenty twenty, but apparently in twenty twenty one they are now asking about sexual orientation. Before then, they did not ask sexual

orientation in the census. Good to know, So we're going to find out in nine years. Oh I'm sorry, seven years. I don't know. I don't want to know who cares, Okay, I don't want to know anyone else's. It's not queer to, like, yeah, exactly, be known in that way. It's not queer to be known in that way. Isn't that such a beautiful Oscar wild thought. It's not queer to be known in that way. It's queer to be known in that way. Oh my god. I went to Queer Britain. This lovely museum in the UK.

They have Oscar Wilde's prison door. Once in the exhib I go, this is this is too sad. I got if Waltz could talk anyway. Wait, prison door? Was he in prison for homosexuality? They threw him in jail, they did. We can't talk about it. It's too sad. Can you imagine? No, Well, the mood is horrible now. Now the mood's bad. So many queer gay writers from the past suffer terrible face. Yeah, bring the mood back up. Frank O'Hara got run over by a car and on Fire Island. That's how he died.

I did not know about that. And to hear about this, and I'm so happy we're sort of starting this podcast in this way. I did not know he was run over on fire in the Fire Island pines. That was awful. I think we can not have better guests. I mean, as the guests. This is the perfect sort of intro lead into our guests. I would say, these are too cerebral people, very smart people who are going to have a lot to say about this. The Frank O'Hara and

Oscar Wilde of our generation. Something. Keep them inside, keep him inside. I gotta say I was a little um not nervous. I just had you stress. It's the good kind of stress when you go into a situation. Why, like, oh, because of our guests. Yeah, I'm so excited. Here's the thing, genuine, true, deep wells of talent. And I mean, if you were lucky enough to see their Christmas tour, then you were

one of the luckiest fuckers in America. I could not see them because I was on my own tour, but I did sort of run into them iconically in the Ronald Reagan airport and we took a powerful queer photo that I posted too Grid because I said, this is too powerful. It's what Reagan would have wanted. The only thing missing was you bow. Then it would have burned to the ground. It's like a scene out at the

Comeback or something. You know, It's like two different queer Christmas comedy shows touring at the same time, but meaning each there at the airport running into each other. The airport is very like curb your enthusiasm to come back. I love that. It's like a little like behind the scenes of showbiz kind of thing. And that's why I brought it right to the grid right right. You know them from not just Drag Race, but Drag Race All Stars.

You know them from a multitude of projects between them and if you're lucky enough to be in New York right now, you can go see one of them on Broadway as Major Mama Morton. We were so lucky to be able to go. I was personally blessed to be in the front row, which that's I sort of get really high and then just buy tickets, and then when I show up, I realized, oh, I bought front Row Center,

Orchestra Center, Orchestra front Row. I was like, okay, I was enveloped and it was one of the best things I've seen, and I've been seeing everything and I was so happy. I went excellent, electrifying. The energy in that audience is truly incredible. I've never really seen anything like it and brand new, and it's a brand new energy.

We're going to talk about it, but gosh, you know him, you love them, and if you weren't lucky enough to see their Christmas special, it is beautifully captured as a one hour special that you can see on any streaming service you'd like any for rental or purchase any one of them, except for the ones that you subscribe to. Is that correct. We're so thrilled to have them here. It's truly our honor to have banjo mon Hello high high,

Hi hi hi Hi. Is every introduction that gushing because no, say no, I said no, they're not always that gushing in every single sense of the term. No. This is major and huge. It was love at first sight for us with both of you. It's true. It's lovely to be here with you. Guys. Wait, I want to who's the Larry David in the airport scenario? Oh, I guess who was it? Following? I mean, look, whoever's the richest? Yeah, who's thet's top Let's get real real about the great

place to start. Whoever's the most into crypto? That would be Ben. I think I just need to point out that. Okay, first of all, thank all three of you for coming to see Chicago on Broadway. Y'all came at different times, so it's nice to have friends peppered throughout the experience. Most recently, Bowen came with my middle school boyfriend Dan Lansky, the best selling author of The Gilded Razor that is

written about his youth and overcoming addiction. And he couldn't remember a lot of the details of when we dated, so I helped him write the chapter that's about me cheating on him in middle school? Oh wow, I heard there was a really sore did love triangle at which Jenks was the vertex of this triangle? Is that correct? It was me and two boys named Sam. Wow, true middle school strumpet behavior. I've always been a huh. Yeah. It continued through life. It's not as if that was

some sort of childish phase. The childishness was ever thinking that I was someone who should be monogamous, and that ended at middle school. That's beautiful. And then do you feel some sort of cosmic connection to the people named Sam or is that just trivial? People named Sam just come into my life and stay there. But you have remained friends clearly. Yeah, Sam Landsky and I. It's just oh. And then the third Sam in question is Sam Rogers. I hope he doesn't mind me name in him. But

I really like bringing up these two. They've both been on They weren't on my podcast yet, but they were on the thing that predates my podcast, which is a digital show I did in the Pandemic called Jinks Calls Her Friends, and that's exactly what it was. And I called both of these Sam's. And what's really really cool is we all met in middle school. We were all queer. We were all the same age. Sam Lansky and I came out really early. Sam Rogers came out in high school.

We all said in middle school what we wanted to do with our lives, and all three of us do exactly what we said we were going to do in middle school, including Sam Rogers, who said he wanted to be a famous actor and a lawyer. And he was in the revival of Westside Story on Broadway. And then when he felt like he had had felt his acting oats, he retired from acting, went back to school, and now

he's a lawyer too. And not every love triangle, everyone sort of gets what they want, you know what I mean, really rare for everyone, and I love triangle to like leave it and go on to sort of good things. You know, you could y'all could have really broken each other right there. I know. I think it's queerness. I mean, I think if the queer people in my life, like Dayla is probably the most type A. I don't even she's a monster, but like also she's incredible, Like it's

she's an incredible monster. She's a deity. She's a wrathful deity. She's capable of such incredible things with her personality, and it comes, you know, at a cost for everyone involved, including her. But queer people just get shit done. I mean, look at the four of us. If the four of us ever morphed into one person, we'd be the next president. I think we can do it as a refracted beam of light for people. We can each run for office.

That's my take. I'm in to it. I mean, is there any reason we can't kind of reconfigure things where actually our quadruple just is I mean, maybe this is becomes one of those successful offshoots of one of Jinx's early relationships, and we all go for the presidency together as a as a four person ticket, three first husbands, and uh you know, we take turn playing. Absolutely there are swings and DayLA's sipping from a manifest that ship

mug and so is just in the air. This was It's maybe the cheesiest drink where I've ever owned, but it was sent to me by my drag hero of our La, Jean Merman, and I'm like, I will always drink for it from it forever. It is a great gift and it can be powerful. Bead Wong sent me a mug. That's my favorite Muggets as the word balls on it. I love it. And I don't think you can escape cheesiness or corniness if you have text on a mug. You just have to embrace the fact that

it's like, it's silly, it's lovely, it's low steaks. It's rule of culture. Mugs can be silly. It's actually a rule of culture. Bone. What number was that, fifty seven? It was a real culture number, fifty seven. Mugs silly. I mean, we're we're drinking coffee, we're having fun already. Why not have more fun? Why not say it with me? Mat Dragon, Oh my god, exactly. And this is actually this mugs first public appearance, so yeah, this is the

big moment. Told us it's coming out party. Yes, wait, Jinx is in New York obviously, mattson La daylor where are you joining us from? I'm getting PMW vibe. I'm in Los Angeles as well, sort of a beautiful day. Huh. It's it's lovely, but I'm in my studio, which is a basement, so it's neither here nor there. But yes, well, if anytime you want to emerge, hon Knee La is laing, I'm ready, Where are we going to the market? How fun was the war? Was that the situation of every

day is incredible and gorgeous. And because we have one person that's like, hey, come on, we're gonna make the flight and one person who's like, I'm coming, I'm coming, I'm coming is Jinx's battle grain. Our tours are a lot because we have a huge emotional investment in the show. Right. It's not like a show where it's just like you get up and do a couple numbers and you know, you have a meet and greet and you're girl and

with the girls backstage. Our show is our baby. It is also you know, it's our opus, our annual opus that we pour our heart and souls into, you know it. Really we put a lot of ourselves into it. So how the show goes each night determines how we are until the following show. Basically, I have to say more than any other year. Year, like you and I didn't come off stage like it was. You know, sometimes you come off stage and early, oh how did that you

end up being? What that was to me? And I don't think we had a show like that this year. It was a good feeling. It was amazing this year, being the first year back to touring post pandemic, where

people started to feel at ease of even being there. Like, you know, our tour last year or two years ago got canceled at the end of it because everyone got COVID, not just us, everyone, you know, it was like another wave, so a lot of things went back down, And now it's been it feels like we're all starting to actually feel over the worst of it. So there is a gratitude between performers and audiences right now that is palpable. It's like we're all so grateful to be back at it.

And I think a lot of people have realized what aspects of live entertainment they were taking for granted, both your performers and audience members. So I have felt it through our holiday tour. I felt it this entire run of Chicago, like audiences are really really excited to be back in the theater, and it's it's just like a chicken in an egg thing, because performers are bringing a lot of joy to their performance, just happy to be back at it, and that makes the audience excited and

then they excited. We all just love each other because none of us got childhoods and the energies was really grant and I like, and maybe it is because there was the pandemic and I didn't obviously we didn't see anything. You kind of take for granted what you didn't see before that. Like I kicked myself thinking about how long I lived in New York and I didn't see all these like incredible shows like all throughout my twenties. You

can't replicate that experience. And then all of a sudden you turned around and so and so's not in the show anymore, that show's not available to see anymore. So yeah, that's definitely been true for me. I am online on

Broadway dot Com purchasing. But with the tour, it's like I think, because would you say that the tour kind of is this fastimily of like your dynamic in real life or like then Dayla is like trying to like execute on this like holiday special and Jinks is like, well, I don't have the same idea of a Christmas special thing. And then the new I mean, like but to do that every night is I would say, like maybe emotionally like like like the boundaries, like like the boundaries move

a little bit, or are aren't totally defined? Do you ever get lost? It's changed a little over the years too, because we rewrite the show essentially every year. We always are like, oh, let's change one or two things, and then it's like ninety percent different. But this did definitely reflect I mean, I was the one who was like, Jinks, we should do a holiday show, like initially, and we sort of talked about this thing, being like, we'll do We'll make it really easy, breezy. You know, we used

to host these drag race like viewing parties. We'll just get up there and like, you know, have a few drinks. Jinks doesn't drink anymore, but we used to have a couple of martinis, like, sing some songs. It'll be very casual, and then I sort of Jinks. I may be misremembering this, but I think this is an accurate representation of our dynamic that I was like, no, actually, scratch that. We're scripting an entire thing, and so it is very much

The character is very much a reflection of that. And I am always sort of in real life, I'm not dragging Jinks through anything because she's exceptionally game. But I also think that, you know, we've had this character dynamic where we're really adversarial, and this year was the first year where we were like, with this show, we're starting to develop more of a buddy comedy thing where we're like on an adventure together. Yeah, because I think it

was feeling. I think it's just our relationship change. The show is changing with it. Yeah, but you know what, like the first instinct for a queer duo to play an adversarial dynamic, I think is like something that a lot of people can identify with. I think Bowen and I for sure a lot of our early work is us being like super adversarial, and I think there is an instinct to want to like stand across from each other, like arms at the hips, like what do you have

to say to me? Because it harkens back to like a dynasty soap opera type situation of like let me best you and it. But it is inherently playful. But yeah, sometimes it can feel like maybe sometimes it gets a

little real. Well, you know, one thing that I've kind of been becoming much more aware of, and this is one of the few things that can thank Ryan Murphy unabashedly four is Hude, Betty and Joan really taught me how toxic it is to pit people against each other when they otherwise wouldn't have been, you know, like and I think, you know, it's so funny you're talking about you and bowen Dale and I had that. My music partner and I have always had we're two people at odds.

My comedy partner, Nick Sejoya. Our early work was all about hating each other. Yeah, So I do think they're that's built into just being because when there's a scarcity of opportunities for people, then you know, when you think of females in this industry being so disenfranchised, and then queer people in this industry being disenfranchised. For much of the history, of course, we get pitted against each other because we're being told there's only one spot for us.

And what we're finding out these days is no, let's claim a lot more space. Rather than fighting over the one spot, let's demand two spots and Dayalen I just kind of naturally over the years, have shifted from writing kind of like adversarial variety shows to This year was the first year we wrote a play with a buddy film kind of motif to it, and I think that's the direction we're heading, because it was really rewarding to say this year we are writing a drag variety show

and we're writing a three act play. Done, that's what we're doing. I think we also write like we have different touchstones now as queer people for like femininity and culture, right, Like all about Eve is sort of how we grew up, and now we have like Abby and Illana, you know, we like there's a different shift in how women in media are sort of no longer being presented as pitted against each other in the way that they were at a different time. Yeah, it's less like I'm looking hot today,

isn't it? And it's more like you're looking hot today? You know. Of such an amazing shift, and it's cool to see that expand into the world of drag, which is historically had Yeah, totally. But I think this is all leading to both of you doing at some point like whatever happened to Baby Jane type. We are so perfectly already those market types. It's so already the like bleeding heart martyr and the wheelchair and I'm so already

the bitter old vaudeville clown in our shadowy Castle. Um wow. Yeah, in the spirit of claiming space and celebrating one another rather than being adversarial. I just want to take a moment to gush over the two of you. No need, no need, no I need to. I know Matt showed off his tattoo with the twenty two significant air I have to imagine that in cludes I love that for you. That show is so good and you are so good in it. It's incredible, It's incredible. I'm so happy you

both enjoyed that, like the funniest, coolest people enjoyed. I think that was the first thing that tumbled out of our mouth when we saw you in the airport that day too. I feel like we yeah, bowen to see you kill it on SNL is just so significant. I mean, like SNL is an institution, and I'm so glad they finally are realizing that clear people be funny too. But you are doing such wonderful stuff on that show and so unapologetically for such a large broad audience, and that

is so important for our community. That means so much. Thank you. If you have a flamboyant inanimate object journey is I gotta say, I think I have to like put a period on it because I love it because it opens up you know. I think we learned this bow and like bone and I used to be a part of this children's theater performance collective called Story Pirates, and kids would write stories and you would perform as these things that they wrote. You would you would routinely pencil.

And I'm going through a divorce. I have to find a way to get this document to my husband, who's a mug, yeah, comfy mug. And it's just like I remember when that was happening. It opened up the possibility for what you could play. And so I do think it's fucking fun that Bowen like plays these things because it's I'm very queer too. I love it. Oh no, certainly, certainly.

I think I'm still figuring out where I'm landing with this, because it's that thing where like if you do comedy, at some point you're like, oh, when does your act become your enemy? You're like, when does this? But maybe that's my own fucking weird pathology, because you guys all find ways to make things interesting because you is are literally doing a show on a recurring basis and are having to iterate on it repeatedly and making it interesting so that you like fall back in love with it,

and I just need to. Like with SNL it's like it's hard to fall back in love with the thing because all that's crystallized is what's on tape. And if you do want to read this that it it has to like in some way outdo the last showing of it.

And so that's why it's right. It's a different relationship maybe, but that means a lot coming from both of you, because I think between the two of you, it's five or five the top Snatch game performances ever Paul and Maggie Smith, Judy Garland, to Touch Leone and Liliedi those are in the top five period between two people. Amazing

you guys, and everything overlapped seasons. Like I think that is It's this wonderful thing that I think is so cool about some duos now, where it's like you see these two people who are individually phenomenal and then to see them sort of like force multiply each other is just really awesome. Well, I'll let day La talk on it because she'll be more concise than I will. But I think my best work is in partnership, like across the board, like I. I perform solo when I have to,

but all of my best work is in collaboration. I agree, I feel the same. I feel the same way. I've been told I'm supposed to speak on this side. I just I was volleying it to you. I was setting up a topic. But what's the topic that I can't live without you? No collaboration solo? Strange? Oh yeah, because Dayla was working solo, you know, and continues to work solo. When I work solo, it's actually with my music partner. We've always joked that my solo shows are actually two people.

We just call it my solo show. But Dala's solo shows it's her on stage, and if she's with a scene partner, it's a puppet that she's also operating so and in until she can get her hand up there and move my mouth for me, which I'm working on

and so. But you know, and it's true that when I'm doing my solo projects that I am the only person on stage, but I do collaborate with a lot of people in process, so it's still the result of multiple voices, which I think is particularly important when you're been at it for this long and like you were saying,

bowen when you are. I mean, we've been doing the same characters for right and in order to keep that interesting both for us and I think an audience, It's like we've constantly had to discover new depths and new angles to that, which I think is really cool to be able to take these I'm constantly discovering new depths, as do you remember the wedge? Is that still a thing?

The sex I saw a lot of ads for that sex with I don't know angles, but um, like something you wedge in there to sort of, you know, just oh, that's great, I can use that. Yeah, yeah, well check it out. It's called the wedge or something googling. But what the hell was I talking about new depths and new angles? But I do think that it's fun that Jinx and I have these very like cartoonish over sort

of exaggerated characters. But we've gotten to find ways within like our work with each other, we get to find ways to like play more of the humanity of them underneath that, which I think has been really important in terms of the longevity of this project is that every year, I think we dive further into that and people have even more of a strong emotional connection to it. And so what I'm what I'm saying is I think you have to spend more time as a weather balloon in order, Yes,

because they're just gonna keep coming. They're just gonna they really are. It's like there's so many of them, you could do them with different accents. Bo's love that they

look big. You know. I wanted to ask about, like specifically the characters of Jinks Monsoon and Bende la Creme, because when you both came into drag Race, I would say that these were both highly characterized personas that you had, you know, Jinks Monsoon with the lifted arm and the sort of swimsuit like we got what it was immediately, and then Bende la Creme. You know, that's sort of

like pin up vibe that you were playing. I wonder how much did drag Race challenge you, How did literally the drag Race of it all challenge you to find new depths and new angles in those characters, as it were, because it feels like that's something that they say, It's like, well, we want to know you the vulnerability, and it's it is the vulnerability. You know what I'm saying, it's a devilish sword, because I think both positive and difficult things came out of that breaking down the wall of the

character and seeing the artist inside. And after season five, I felt like people would come to my shows expecting to see Jinks the artist, you know, the water off a duck's back, you know, sensitive soul, and Jinks the character is an narcissistic, pessimistic, nihilistic, milfy bit righte. And so people would come to my shows and be kind of shocked at what my material is versus who they

thought they were going to meet that night. And so I kind of spent a while between season five and All Stars seven reintroducing the character to my audiences so that they could tell the difference. And it took I mean, like, that's why I'm kind of glad At seven happened when it did, because after a decade, and especially after teaming up with Dayla and getting our show seen by so many more people, because when we combine our powers, our

reach is like incredible. So it's just it's like, by season seven, I had a very clear idea of who Jinks the character was, so did my audience and I spent season seven using that as a way to reintroduce the character. And now when people come to my show, they know exactly what the fuck they're gonna get, and that is such a boon to me because it means I get to start from the plateau of people get it. I don't have to introduce as much to them in

all of my shows. I get to start from a place of mutual understanding, all right, right, which is such an old school way to approach drag that we do where there's really like one character at the heart of it, and that's not every drug, which is great, right, Like we have drag queens with a lot of different skill sets, but it's a real challenge when it goes into a reality TV format and you're supposed to like cry about your dead mom or whatever while you're putting on makeup,

and it's she can say that her mom's dead, yeah, just this morning. Actually it was rough, but the right. But the thing is that we have these amazing, larger than life characters, and so I imagine this was very intentional going into season six that I had the benefit of Jinks just being on five, and so I got to like learn from some of her experiences, so I knew, Okay, I have to let people know what they're going to

see when they come on stage. The backfire when I come on stage, they're not going on stage and not interactive. The backfire aspect of that is that if your character has is cartoony and sort of over the top, but has any sort of new then that does not know. Nuance comes apart across on reality people. I'm sort of all the time like, oh my god, she's so positive and sweet, and I'm like, but when I use her on stage, it's basically a criticis like, it's a critique

of that outlook total. Yes. Yes, So that was a little weird, and then all stars I like went in and it was just like, Okay, well, now I'm gonna show that I am capable of playing a lot more characters because I also do that. On sh she run in like a sniper. Truly, she went in like a over ops highly trained assassin. Yes, I don't know why I'm making it violent. It was like like if mister Bean got hired as an assassin and just course accidentally

shooting the right person. Yeah, but I think Ben's run on drag Race is really remarkable because there was such a clear threshold between the persona and drag and the confessional workroom, real grounded Ben, you know, like that was what always sort of struck me. What I was that, I was like, God, like, she really has such control and a toggle over these two people, and both of them feel honest. I wouldn't say authentic. I don't really know what that means when I say that we're but

honest versions of the same person. Does that make sense? And I absolutely identify strongly with that. That is very much that, like Daala is a very contained version of myself that can only exist in sort of short durations, right, which is like I think the magic of a character like that is like that sort of outlook is not sustainable, which is why all of my pessimism is reserved for

out of drag experiences. Sure, then you become like Lady Gaga and you're like, I was this, I am this person, like there is no separation between well, and that's kind of where we're at, and we talk about this all the time as ourselves and in our collaboration. What's really really funny is that Dala and Jinx, I mean, we both possess multitudes. We both us aspects that are attributed

to either of us. But it's so funny to hear Day Let's say that her character is so contained in optimism, and all of her pessimism exists in her real life, whereas for me, I get all of my demons out on stage, and then my day to day persona is this bubbly, over the top optimistic, like let's turn everything into a game. I mean, part of that's just me. Those are my coping mechanisms so I don't fall back

into alcoholism. But also it's just who we naturally are, you know, Like she it's so funny that like on stage I'm the rand and she's the stimpy, and then off stage she's the burden. I'm the ernie, you know, like we kind of flip flop back and forth. And I mean that in all contexts. Yeah, I identify with that. I find I find that my day to day, especially in like developing my persona for my own special in my own Christmas show and the things that I do.

I've come to realize like I'm much colder on stage as like the persona I play, and like much more like a smile a lot less, you know what I mean. Like sometimes even sometimes I'll look at my own social media, like I'll black out and I'll look back at it, and I'm like, I am projecting someone who sometimes I and I guess that's like a struggle, right, like as someone who's like public and trying to be an artist but also like has like a podcast and gives people

a glimpse into their real life. It's like you don't always have a hold on like what you're projecting and

who you are. Like that that's tough to manage. And then to see it sort of edited down by someone else in a reality show has to be and then critiqued on that premise has to be such a mind fuck, like because I know it is for me, just like in trying to have a career without cameras following it and then being like yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll put this together and yeah, well I'm staying on my meds and drinking plenty of diet. It's a beautiful song. Maria Banford,

You're welcome. Yeah, we have to ask you both the question, which is what was the culture that made you say culture was for me? Ben Let's start with you. I have really been overthinking this, which is no such thing that makes sense what the character is my amoum. I talk about a lot of the same touchdow like over and over again in interviews, I like talked about the same stuff, and I was really thinking about what's my

angle here? And I think that the first time I remember being like deeply affected by a piece of media in a way that like rattled my core. With Labyrinth it was, oh, you know, it was so like campy and over the top and like a musical, but like right, so much of my sense of dy I think early on was sort of the things where some sort of reality and some sort of cartoon or puppet element crossover, like whom Roger Bradman was like a huge deal for

me Pee Wee's Playhouse, which is that kind of dynamic. Um, but Labyrinth man just like shook me because I was I mean, I think it was like seven or something, and um, it was so playful and fun and like magical but also so sexy in a way that I was not prepared for and that I was so like excited but also deeply upset by. Yeah, just sort of understanding myself, that's that thing you're like, what is that? Well?

And I think it's maybe also the first time that you're like, oh a piece of media can like reach real deep inside you two things that you don't even know how. I mean, I obviously I was not thinking about that at seven, but when I like reflect on it, the way that it can touch parts of you that you are unaware of. Yeah, that's why I say that the movie Beauty and the Beast is responsible for my foot fetish. Why guest on with the toe deep? Oh yeah, yeah,

like exactly what you want? Was that your gateway to David Bowie as well? Yes, yes, yes, And then I uh,

I became just absolutely obsessed. It was actually it was my mom who brought home that VHS of Labyrinth, and she was just sort of she put it in sort of knowingly and watched it with me, and she was there was some part of her that was like, I think this is going to speak to you, and then afterwards burst into tears and it was like, you know, that was not a conversation we were having, but it was very much in retrospect her being like okay, like

I see you, you know, but um wow yeah. No. Afterwards, like being able to sort of more fully dive into everything else that David Bowie has been was definitely that set me off on a path for sure, David Bowie too. That's I would also probab maybe even connect that to you like gravitating towards drag because David Bowie was in an essence a drag queen. I mean, he was everything.

Oh absolutely. It also launched me into the Jim Henson universe, which is also full of drag queens, Yes, Piggy and Janice and all these other you know, Frank Oz playing all of these amazing archetypal women. Yes, so yeah, from all angles, it combined every element of that excellent answer because every strand really goes back to that thing for to labyrinth for you, where it's the beam of light that refracts into all these things that you do now,

which is beautiful. Yeah, and there's a million other touchstones along the way, but that's the first time I remember just being truly shattered by something in a good way. And also the like bizarre glamor you know, like it's glam but it's also fucked well and it's sexy and it's fun, but it's also like deeply it's like getting into like fears and like it and like all sorts of you know, it's it's speaking to sort of serious and complex emotions and yeahs, you know, and I like that.

I like when something is really silly and campy and sparkly and draws you in and then uh kind of one two punches you as something else. Yeah, we don't have enough of that stuff now, we really do. I think the last thing I can really imagine. And speaking of duos that like went for it in like a stylized way that you can see in watching it. I was like, people that see this that are young and don't really know themselves yet might really find themselves. And

this is like Barb and Star. Yeah, such an incredible movie. Jins and I watched that like within twenty four hours of each other and could not shut up about it. Anyone who doesn't like that movie doesn't know movies. It's amazing. Why are we not seeing drag queens? I don't want to say who the villain is. Why have we not seen more drag queens cosplaying that villain? Right? You're right, right,

you're right. Yeah, the soda scream in the beginning, I knew and it was beautiful the way that I really like spoke to sort of this amazing journey of these women in middle age kind of finding themselves and reassessing. And it was such an amazing way to get into that. And that's what I love about camp in general is that it just sort of breadcrumbs you down a road and then you can do anything with it, and you can keep it silly or you can really go somewhere.

But people they all their armor is down when they've been dazzled by some like bright colors and some goofy jokes. God, you're so right. It is breadcrumbs when it comes to like delivering camp. I think we all like can recognize it at this point in the culture, but to make it it is this thing where you leave crumbs and then once you fully have the audience in the pocket of that, you can do literally anything and we will

be along for the ride. There can be a crab that like comes along and speaks in Morgan Freeman's voice, you know, like that speaking of which, and this is something that Jinx and I sort of like always think about in our shows is that we have like this sort of heart that we want to get people to that. We really want them to feel vulnerable, and so we use a lot of dick jokes to get there, but also puppets try having the drag the crab like deliver

that message. I always, I actually always use puppets to talk about them. I did a show like a million years ago about um it was. It was about like American history, and I used a bald eagle puppet to address slavery and genocide because that's the only you know what I mean, it's like the only delirious system that like the audience will like tolerate because they're like, oh, it's a silly puppet giving this heavy, heavy message. Yes, yeah, totally. Oh and we do that in the show as well, right,

except usually our puppets are villa. Yeah. Oh right, because it was the it was the Barkart. Yeah. So in the in the special, it's the ghost of my dead grandmother in a glass of eggnog and she's sort of like racist and homophobic. Um yeah, And we've used that a lot. We had a transphobic gingerbread man on one of our that was like furious that we were not necessarily going to assign them mail like through bread ties and like signifiers like that. Yeah, were angry about that.

I'm curious about what other touchstones there were though, because you overthought it. I do want to know where else your brain went, Like along the way. There's a lot of like Elvira hue Herman characters who I really love

that they never broke. They would go on like a late night talk show and they would not reveal the person behind them, which is something I was sad about Drag Race sort of losing, is that it's like first to see the person behind the character, and we've lost that thing of people who just never allow you to know them, which makes you believe in their characters in a way. That's why would we be able to believe that Elvira is a person human like moving through the world.

But Cassandra Peterson has convinced us of that, like we bought it right in a way that was like speaking to like the child in us and all sorts of stuff. And then I don't know, fast forward and when I saw the Weekstock documentary, that was really when I was like, oh, click, click click, all these sensibilities drag is part of this, And that's where I really was able to say, oh, all these things that I am already drawn to, or that I already am, there's a container for that, and

it's this thing called drag. And that's how you get to incorporate all of it. That is drag, drags the clock, and then everything else is sort of the gear and the hand and all that saying. I can't think of a modern equivalent to like an Elvira, a peewee, like someone who will not break on it like that though, because we're obsessed with knowing whoeverone is. Does Pete Davidson

how I don't know about that? But I mean, I gonna bring up age just because Matt and I were on a Jimmy Glick kick recently and Jimmy Glick is like it's it's so ridiculous, And there are problematic aspects of Jimmy Glick obviously, but like there's something really pretty brilliant about Martin Short, just like staying in that zone and having Jimminy Glick be the delivery system for his most vile, toxic, mean, rude thoughts and he would just insult his guests. You know, you know who is maybe

our closest thing is Stephen Colbert. Sure, Yeah, totally totally less so now but right, and Amy Sedaris has built like even just her out of Jerry Blank drag, Like by creating at Home with Amy Sedaris, She's created a version of herself that is Amy Sedaris, but also a heightened, you know, clown form of her. You know what's funny is I completely agree with Dayla, And also I think there's something very powerful about just us talking about ourselves

and talking about our lives. You know, Like I really did miss the anonymity that I gave up when I did drag Race. Like I used to be able to be Jinks and then get out of drag and no one knew who I was in Seattle. I mean, like the more popular I got within the drag scene, the less that was. But like I still was able to like go places out of drag and just be a human being and that's kind of gone from me now.

But to know that people who resonate with the stories that I've been very candid with to know that that inspires them and helps them in the same way that drag queens did that for me. It might be like through different forms, you know, but like people are drawing inspiration from me the same way I drew inspiration from Lady Bunny and Coco Peru and you know, the old guard of drag, the generation that paved this path for me. So uh, it's it's give and take. I'm okay with

it is the thing. It's like, I'm okay and I still do what I love to do and they assign meaning to it. I always say, listen, I'm really really happy to pay it forward. If me getting on stage and telling a bunch of satirical dick jokes makes you feel more seen than, it's a win win total in us. Beautiful Jinx, What about you the culture that made you

say culture was for you? Um, I'm gonna weave a tale of many things that have all fit together, but I think my my answer is LARPing, live, oh, role playing. Oh my goodness. Now, in middle school, all of my friends were Mormons, but I didn't know what Mormons were. But these were Portland Mormons, so they were very liberal Mormons. And their favorite things were the King Arthur Legends and Rocky Horror Picture Show. And so we did a lot of things. Yeah, we did a lot of We would

put on the soundtrack and act out the soundtrack. That happened a lot. We all had nicknames based off of characters in the King Arthur legends. I was Queen Gwenevere, and then I was a greade below or two grades below most of the friends in this group, so their eighth grade graduation. After the last day of school, we went to a park and larked for like three hours.

And I guess the reason why this is so important to me is because it was this moment of realizing that if you are just honest about having an interest in something, you might find people who share that interest, even if it's the dorkiest interest, something you would never want to even reveal about yourself. But if you find a way to safely reveal that, you might find people

who share the interest. And like I sincerely loved dressing up in Renaissance gear and running around in this park with my friends and pretending I was a shape shifter. I had this Perier bottle that I had peeled the labels off of and it was my shape shifting potion. It led to me cracking my tooth. Oh, because they're so hard, those bottles. Yeah, someone bumped into me and

it broke my tooth. And I used to lie and say it was a skateboarding accident because I didn't want to admit that it was from live action role play. But you know, when I think about that, I'm like, that just showed me that, like, there are people in the world who want to play make believe with you. And then it wasn't long after that I saw my first drag show. It wasn't long after that that I started doing drag and that was just like, those are the breadcrumbs of leading to me being me. And then

I think about The Dresden Dolls and Amanda Palmer. The Dresden Doll the first band of my youth that was like not a band that my parents listened to when I found myself, and it was like so very much. It was the exact kind of music I had always been waiting for. That Amanda Palmer became this big icon to me. Amanda Palmer's gone on to do such amazing things. She's continued to be this icon. We got to do a duet together. She put out a book and a Ted Talk, So if you can't read, you can listen

to the Ted Talk. But it's called the Art of Asking. And that's how I started this whole rant. But the art of asking. It's just the concept that if you are honest with the world about what it is you need or what it is you're looking for, then you might find people who want to give it to you, and you might not ask for anything in return. They might just be looking for someone to give this thing to.

But you'll never know until you ask. Yeah. So I think we've been conditioned to think that we have to do everything on our own. And if you need help from others, or if you need to ask for help, or if you need to ask for assistance, or you're searching for people with similar interests, then you're somehow weak or less apt or less like fit for the world. But a man Palmer says, Nah, there are just times when if you ask, you can receive, and it's as

simple as that. That's wonderful. Between the Dresden Dolls and Larking, I think there's this shared thing of like esthetics, where like Listen, I never larped, but I would do this thing I was like squarely in the eighth grade, let's say, going to Chinese school on Sundays, and what I would do with the kids in like the fifth grade who were around these like all the Chinese kids, kind of

like we're in the same soup or whatever. And then we all like went outside and I would lead these like this weird high fantasy like adventure where I was the dark Lord and these kids had to chase me down and fight me with their spells. But the thing is,

we didn't have costumes. And so between the Dressdin Dolls and you LARPing as Guinevere with your potion, like you had costumes and props, and I feel like the Dressden Dolls were this group who like embraced this like fusion of cabaret and punk and so like it was steampunk

cabaret punk punk. It was also like very clear even though they were a male and a female, and but like I would venture that Amanda Palmer identifies as queer, and they exuded it at a time when I wasn't seeing a lot of queerness and media, I was assigning queerness two things, right, you know, remember when we didn't used to get to see ourselves on TV, so we

had to find ourselves. I've always found myself in the most random of places, like magic al dispel on ducktails, remember that freaking he stuck It's why little queer kids are always choosing who they choose in video games, you know what I mean. Yeah, I think it's a much more mainstream instinct than people realize that they want to disappear into something. I mean, even little kids when they're

playing like man Hunt. You know, there's this fantasy they're playing about about hunting and being hunt dead that they do in a safe way, or like with video games or even in school. I remember my favorite things were where. I remember when I was in eighth grade, we were going to re enact the Boston massacre trial and I was John Adams the Law and it was my favorite thing because I would write these long, long speeches to

give in front of the jury. And I remember I think people were afraid of how hard I was committing to it, and I was really willing to commit to commit to it because I think they were like, it wasn't cool to commit to it. It seemed gay to commit to this thing, so they didn't vote for me at the end. And I remember I did not win the tribe. It was really like that. It was very overdrawn, and I'm telling you, my closing argument to the jury

was like ten pages and I'll never forget. My teacher, mister Tapagna, pulled me over to the side and he said, I want you to know that I appreciate what you've done, and I want you to give me that because it's one of the best things I've had written in my class. And he saw that I tried hard and committed it and wanted to live out the fantasy. And it's like that thing where you see a kid wanting to live out fantasy and other like their peers like stomp it

out a little bit. And there is that instinct, I think, to stomp out creativity and stomp out like imagination, and we see it now more than ever because of fear and because maybe that you'll look stupid if you try to do the same thing. But I really appreciated that someone in my life encourage that. Like I said, I do think like if we all were more in touch with our inner children, we all would be doing more things like that. Because it's fantasy, it's imagination, it's fun,

it doesn't have to be scary or weird. You know. Yeah, it's interesting that it's niche because it's actually so universal. I think it's why video games are like such a big part of our culture. And we're talking a lot about queerness and video games, and I think video game developers are having to realize that they have a huge queer audience because I don't think people realize it. But like video games were a safe space for queer kids, ye because you could play by yourself, and just like

you were saying, you choose characters. Especially nowadays, you can customize this character, so who cares who you are in your day to day life. You can be who you want to be in video games and no one has to know. And so that's why this kind of representation is important. But I think we should just find ways to make life more like video games. We should just let people be their avatars in their day to day

life without judgment. I mean, alok v men, And sorry, I know I'm on such a tangent right now, but Aloke is always talking about the reason why people try to squash out that creativity is because they're afraid, And you were just saying fear, but it's like it's fear

of two things. It's fear of someone else living that kind of freedom and having to reconcile that they're being free and realizing that you're not free, and so having to admit that you've been living under this like brainwashed conditioning your whole life, and if you wanted to, you

could actually be free of that. But then also the fear of like what would that feel like to let all the rules go and of everything we've been taught and just actually live authentically, Like that's terrifying for some people, and queer people were just used to being terrified, so we go for it, right, Yeah, Yeah, yeah, I think

that's true. It's it's very hard and scary to live your life open to things and taking risks because you get hurt, you know, like especially like when that's intrinsically who you are and who you want to be, you know, especially like living in a world where you are told in a macro sense like you don't fit in here, and so then you're like alone with yourself and you think, well, at a certain point, I look back and I think that actually was a gift, because I'm like, well, if

I don't belong here, let me look around for what I do belong. And then it's the asking of it all that you mentioned. It is the finding of community, and then you find your you know, bow and yang to you, or you're been to you or your jings to you, and like you feel encouraged and you feel

more like yourself through community. Absolutely. I mean, I think that as queer people, we spend a lot of childhood like waiting for adulthood and then explode into an extreme right because it's been getting pent up for all that time.

It's and I think one of the beautiful things about the video game Aspect Right is that, like we just had to wait until we had access to anything that could help us sort of present ourselves the way that we see ourselves, or that we had like a safe environment where we could present ourselves in the way that we see ourselves. And now there is this outlet for

queer kids to have some of that. You know. One of my favorite this is actually, I'm sorry this is a tangent, but one of my favorite things to ever be on SNL is Wells for Boys. Oh my god, it's I think it was a water actually, I mean, I think that was a huge deal that was so explicitly, intrinsically deeply queer. Yeah, that was just a way that I've seen myself reflected in media that I have not

seen before. But I really, you know, I think a lot of us that's the thing is we just like sit around and wait to be grown up so that we can do anything about it. And then of course we're just going to be like totally balls to the wall by the time we get there totally. I think I am trying to maybe connect too many dots here, But I think, like the thing, the thing from day Alt, the thing from Jenks about these cultural touchdones is that like aesthetics matter in that it is what communicates, It

is the medium of communication for people. That's I think that's why, like I always say, like it's not shallow to like care about the way you look, even if it goes against a beauty standard, but it goes if it goes along with the beauty standard. It's like it's important because it might actually play into like a gender expression or another kind of expression. But then I think it's also the reason why not to bring this into

the chat. But like the drag bans are like all of a sudden very prolific, is because drag ends up being the most aesthetically impactful thing across the board. And so it's the thing that like Stokes fear in certain people who think, well, this is the most dire dangerous thing that's going on right now, even though it does not pose any threat to them. But it's only because there's this aesthetic quality to drag that like says so

much without really saying anything verbally orally. Does that make sense? It's like what we were talking about earlier about like you get to start from a more honest place with new people that you meet. Right, Like, my life has improved so much now that I've started presenting as the way that I feel inside, because people call me ma'am rather than sir, and so I respond joyfully rather than cranky. Yeah, exactly.

So yeah, aesthetic, aesthetic presentation can be more important than just you know, vanity or it's not all about ego now, it is also about having a conversation without words. Well and dragon, I think, I mean, I think it's also scary to people in general. But right now, obviously there's a lot happening with drag right now in our country

that's like bizarrely high profile. I still it feels surreal to me, but it also feels so familiar, right It's like I think a lot of people are reacting to it in this way where it's like WHOA, who could have seen this? And I'm like, I think most of us, you know, And it started there like that's it was recent history that drag was regarded in this way, and I think it's because it's like, it is the aesthetics about a claiming power. It's about being the most powerful

person in the room, and that's huge. And that's what it was in like bull culture in Paris is burning. It was being like, okay, we're not rich and straight, but we can still claim that power in these spaces. And now we're in all the spaces, and of course it's terrifying to people because yeah, yeah, I don't fear

controls people. And imagine imagine being like a god fearing person who's been taught that feels that way, and then hearing someone like RuPaul saying I am God and drag, you know what I mean, And suddenly there's hundred of like I guess what ru would call it, monsters running around being God and drag. And then that idea, even if you are not a drag queen or have an instinct to do drag, I remember how revolutionary it was for me to hear that there actually were not limits.

That is when my comedy really broke open. And I have to credit like the popularity of drag Race for showing me someone in my twenties who was very much doing this sort of straight drag in my comedy until I realized there was like an empowering thing about really

taking your queerness and putting it out there. I mean, it was this weird time in my life and I think I'm speaking for a bow and two, which was like drag Race becoming huge, our friends Josh Sharp and Aaron Jackson, like performing at UCB, which is like a very hetero institution at the time, and then being so unapologetically their fag itself, you know what I mean, Like like and I just like it's this idea like, oh wow, I actually don't have limits, and I don't think I

would do anything that I do now if that message hadn't been delivered to me. And so for queer people to be given this powerful message and this powerful tool and to realize, like, don't listen to the naysayers and all these things, like, of course, that's going to be scary for people that want controlled desperately because they're afraid. Yeah, but now that you've mentioned it, I will say that i've seen videos of your UCB characters. You're upright, since

I've seen what was this? M Yeah, that was one of my favorite, the most unpredictable Batman villain of all time, where they didn't have an identity or like they basically were everything everywhere all at once if you were, and that would make them actually predictable, because if you think about these Batman villains, it's like, okay, so they're the Joker. You know, there's going to be a card. You know, it's probably going to be the thing opposite of what

they say. Like, we really could kill the Joker if we wanted to. I get that gothamester run and be afraid, but like know the Riddler. Let's just get someone who's good at riddles on the case, get someone who's get mamma who's good at wordle to come in here, and we can kill the Riddler to penguin honey and I don't know, I'll turn up the heat. Wow. Speaking of Wordle, we are boycotting the Times now, so yeah, listen, Wordle was if you played Wordle for more than two weeks

and I used this word pejoratively. You're a fucking nerd. You're how we already established a love of nerddom in this conversation. Though, Yeah, I'm choosing in this instance to use it prejoratively and to actually, like weabinize that that word. Sure, as a queer person, you have that option absolutely, And I was using faggot prejoratively against Jason. I want to say, Eric Jackson, what a great person. I've known er ages and I have had the biggest crush on them my

entire knowing them. But I just the Times. The Times is oh. I felt horrible because I was introducing Sam Lansky to a group of people, and I always love to brag about my friends, and I was like, Sam Lansky New York Times bestseller, But who gives a fuck? What the New York Times thing? You should say, good reads, legend,

Sam Lancy, but don't support Amazon. I think, ma, I'm moving very sort of naturally into our so called I don't think so Honey, because there's not a bigger I don't think so Honey than New York Times right now. But this is our sixty second segment where we take something in pop culture and we sort of absolutely rage against it because it needs to be raged against. Mine's a little alt this week both but as a result of my ticket buying spree when I'm high, I've realized

something about myself and I would pop off interesting. This is Matt Rogers. I don't think so many a time starts now. I don't think so honey, me during a Broadway show, I'm not watching the story. I'm watching the butts. Especially when I'm in the front row at Chicago, I am looking at your butt. I'm sorry, if you're a dancer in a Broadway show, I'm looking at your butt. It's sort of like it's it's something I can't control. And the garments that my guys are wearing, like, oh my,

I'm telling it's happening at something like it Hot. It's happening at Chicago. It's happening over here, over there, it's happening at End Juliet. It's happening at I'm going to see a Dolls House, Jessica chast Stake. There. It's happening at Bet Cinderella. It's one of the only things happening at kidding so much, just happening at Bet Cinderella, and I think I had the time of my life watching it. But I'm still processing. Sure Broadway boys, get in the dms.

Reach out. At the very least I can make you laugh. I'll take your ass. Let's have a good time, Let's have a drink and as twirl about the room. I don't think so. And that's one minute lovely. And speaking of Broadway asses, I would say, jinks, that suit really fits you nicely. The suit fits me nicely. The ass is fake, No it is. That's my phone drag ass silly, Well that number thirty None of my silly. Just the

most gorgeous people in the world in Broadway ensembles. I mean, it's just I'm so happy for all of them too, because it does feel like an exciting time on Broadway again.

Like I went to go see obviously you in Chicago and it felt like, you know, afterwards, we were lucky enough when you popped out, got to meet Lana Gordon who's playing Oh My God, and even she was saying, like the energy has been so great, I mean, like and like to hear about the houses being filled in the way that they have with you, with you, like

that's amazing. Not only for you and for Broadway, but also for these incredibly talented people who don't always get receptions like that or excited audience is like that, who really deserve it, because this is to even get one of these jobs and to keep one of these jobs is such a feat and like just so kudos to all of them, and they're gorgeous. Absolutely, I will keep this brief, but it's a really queer time on Broadway right now. Lots of it's true, and it's about fucking time.

But I'll say this because it was kind of astounding. I saw Take Me Out, which you probably heard about for Jesse Tyler's Tony winning performance in it, but also full frontal male nudity. Now, both with Chicago and with Take Me Out, there was a thing that drew queer audiences in full frontal male nudity, drag queen on stage, so there was a hook that lured audiences in. Then once they were in Take Me Out, it was a profoundly beautiful show. It was so good, it was confronting,

it was honest, it was magnificently performed. Chicago, like you were saying, Lna Gordon and Charlotte dan Bois icons. They are gay icons who have been playing these roles for years and are fine finally getting to play these roles in front of queer audiences who are going to respect the work that they're doing and the level that they're doing it at in a way that their straight audiences might not have access to. So everything you just said, yes, yes, yes,

Broadway very queer. It always has been, but now we're being unapologetic about it. Yeah, And I do just want to tag onto that, like I mentioning that I saw these shows just excellent, and there's also in some like It Hot and and Juliette, there are explicit trans narratives in them that like And to see that in more than one show on Broadway right now, not even just

queer like it's really exciting. And I found myself looking around and everyone really receiving it and watching it, and I just think about, you know, when I was a little kid seeing Hairspray on Broadway like that that was such a revolutionary thing at the time, and to the progression on that and to see it really happening in Broadway theater, like, you know, kudos. And I've been having a really amazing time. I'm seeing all of these shows. All right, Bowen, yan, are you ready for your I

don't think so, honey. I'm ready. I'm ready, and I don't know how this will be received. I feel this way though I do. I do well. If you feel it, you need to speak it, Okay, Bowen, this is your I don't think so, honey. Your time starts now. I don't think so, honey. The words macaroon, macaron, and macaroni. Language fails us all the time. These are three things that are completely different from each other, and yet they share the same root word. Yes, and really it doesn't

make any sense. These are things that cannot be interchanged for each other. Maybe a macaroon and a macaroon can be interchanged for each other. They're both sweet, lovely, delectable desserts. They're not the same thing. And I actually don't like it when people refer to a French macaroon as a macaroon. There's no coconut, there's no almond, carelessly tossing this term around. Words matter, and yet words fail us. It is a

terrible conundrum we are in. As English speaker. I truly mourn the loss of other languages and an era of globalization in an era when every person on earth is expected to know some English, when they have gorgeous mother tongues that can more readily wield these three different foods with different terms macaroni, macaroon, macaron different things entirely. And that's one minute, My girl said, era of globalization. It's true,

it's true. I may you say something subversive, which is that I think a macaron is disgusting, and I'm really upset when somebody offers me a macaroon and get out of here. Get out of here, because a macaron is delectable. I feel the opposite. Ben Well, but we're Jack Spratt and his wife. We're going to polish them all off. I love macaroni. I love macaroni too. I love it. I always forget when someone says macaroni that they don't necessarily mean elbow. But I think of elbow macaroni when

I think of macaroni. But it could literally be any tubular pasta. Let's just I didn't know that. Yeah, I'm learning so much here. Any tubular pasta macaroni, Yes, any tubular pasta macaroni. It's square rectangle sort of thing. So Penney is macaroni. Penny is considered macaroni. Next time you go. I don't think so, honey. If you go and buy a penny at the store, you're going to see macaroni on the box. I don't think it's very's telling meat

is macaroni. Forget it? It's square rectangle. Wow, that might have to be a rule of culture. What that? Every tubular pasta is Macaroni's consider? What number was that? Again? Seven? It's rule of culture number seven. Every tubular pasta is macaroni. Rigatoni is Macaroni is macaroni. I'm horrified by this, but I resk It's crazy, isn't that jarring? Think? It really freaks me out if I think too hard about it. Macaroons are not macar macaroon, and neither of them are macaroni,

And yet they all sound so similar. And when Yankee Doodle stuck a feather in his hat, he called it macaroni. Oh, oh my god, I didn't you know? Then? I identify with you being scared about the new information and fearful. But remember that, you know. Jennifer Lewis once looked me in the eyes on this podcast and she said, we can be scared, but we must not be unafraid. So take this information in and move forth. I think we should start with a bende la creme. I don't think so, honey.

What do you say? Wow? I love it. This is this is the moment in time. You're ready, I'm down. Mine is also language based to this. Amazing, It's perfect. This is bende la cremes. I don't think so, honey. Her time starts new. I don't think so, honey. With the de evolution of the English language through TikTok, I cannot handle the POV situation. Yeah, that is not POV. Of me eating a French fry. Is A fistful of French fries is of me eating French fries. It makes

me furious. I'm I do not like this no one colon thing. I understand that started a certain way, but it it devolved into it. We don't need everything to start with no one colon. We know that no one's anything that is implicit in leaving it alone. I come from the greatest generation of overusing like and misusing ironic and literally. I feel good about that. I think we should stop it there. I think it's getting too rapid and too out of control is meaningless. I want to

hear no more chaotic. Everybody learned what POV is, and stop putting your memes in like four different fonts. Just write a new meme. That is what we need. And I don't think so, honey about any of this d evolution. And that's one minute I knew you by God, I mean, isn't it funny bowen is them? I have always identified as I just especially in the confessionals. I'm like, God, I was like, I could listen to this person just

talk and time. Not not that it's that's a means of identification, but I'm just like, oh, I love this person truly truly. But no, no, no, no no, but this is that was a perfect I don't think so and it POV is. The usage is completely bastardized. It's crazy, so upsetting, particularly by really really attractive people who honestly should be trying harder. Yes, agree, but then that kills it for me. I'm like, no, boner gone, it's not

gonna work, And no one colon. Yes, it is just at this point a means to like set up a thought that did not need the set up. No, no, it's it's extraneous. Why we can't both completely stop using language correctly and nothing about economy of language. If you're going to be bad at using words, use fewer words, thank you, oh my god. And actually that's a great note. I used to be very global note. I used to

be very, very very hard on people misusing literally. But I think at this point the work has sort of like taken on an additional meaning, which is just saying something is amphatic, agreed, it's it's also I mean, I grew up on literally and the alanis Morisset, you know, cultural confusion around and what that means. Yes, And I just feel you know that to me, that's grandfather Dan.

I understand that's generational. I was listening to a podcast that I recorded the other day and the amount that I used like and I always overuse, but in this one it was every other word, and I was infuriating. When you catch yourself doing that, Yeah, I'm just saying, everybody, give yourself a little bit of grace because guess what. You go back and watch any of my talk show appearances, you will be stunned at how often like gets thrown in there. And I've just learned to accept it. It's okay.

People still understand what I'm saying. I forgive it in others, and I am working on giving myself the same grace. Absolutely. Janine Garofalo when she came on this podcast her I don't think so, honey, was people saying like a lot and we were kind of just sitting there like, oh, so she has never listened to this and thought, oh yeah, I'll do what I have the afternoon for you. Had she listened to this podcast, she would never come on because she doesn't respect us. She doesn't respect us, and

that's okay, okay. I have always felt very strongly about grammar and punctuation and respecting language and stuff. And then and then also there is classism in that, right, Like it's been pointed out to me that being like a gatekeeper and not like listening to someone because of the way they speak is inherently classist. I do, though, think that if you want to be a content creator using language as a medium, you should have respect for it, right.

I mean, there's got to be some middle ground. But I mean, I don't want to be classist, but I also want to understand what people are saying to me. I feel horrible Sometimes when it's like a typo will really throw me off because I'm like, is this a typo? Because it's a typo? Is this a new abbreviation? I don't understand. Is this a new phrase that's being used. Maybe I'm just maybe it's more my problem than anything else. I don't want to be classist about this, but I

am perfectly fine with being agist. Young people are bad at a lot of things, and that I am okay with saying out loud, yeah, this is the perfect kind of ageism. Are you ready? Old people are bad. Young people are also bad at The perfect age is the age that I am? Yes, that's it. Yes, it's equal opportunity. It was a crime when my father felt that way, But now that I am my father's age. Isn't that

funny though? When you start to become that person that's like that literally is like these kids, you know what I mean? Like I think it started with like I don't know, I guess like when I didn't and I'm just gonna bravely say this. When I really didn't get the Billie Eilish thing at first, I was like, h I was like wait what, Like it's because I really didn't get it and so so famous like like ubiquitous,

like parents know who she is. And there I was being like, h like a cranky about it, and now it is right, But I was thanky about TikTok to it first. Now I think it's fun and goofy and I laugh my little ass off when I'm on it. But like the ways in which like it felt like it accelerated past you, you know what I mean, Like that's what it is. And but but it's it's funny to become like yeah, yeah, get off my lung. I'm having this thing where I like, I have learned a

lot of things from young people. I have learned a lot of new ways of thought from young people. Of course, I've learned a lot from my elders. I guess my only frustration with age groups right now is their inability for patients with one another. It's like being a queer person in my thirties. I am finding a lot of frustration in trying to get the older generation and the younger generation to have a conversation with you. I know, like they are each digging their heels in the sand

in opposite directions and not across the board. You know, I know plenty of older people who are very open minded. I know plenty of young people are extremely mature. But I'm talking about the issue we're having in the queer community right now and have been having for a while, is old people don't want to learn new stuff because they think I built this community. How dare you tell me there's new terms I don't know? And young people are like, but you built the community for me. So

I'm telling you this is what I want. Why aren't you respecting that? And then I'm sitting here in my thirties wanting to have sex with everyone. Sam, can't we all get along? And they're so tired from the fighting and I can't get it up. They can't get it up. And you just bought a WEDGEE what. I can't be a slat in this modern age. If people can't get along, you'll find a way to manage um. All right, So Jinks Moon Soon it's time for I don't think so, honey.

Are you're ready? And remember never forget Jinksman Soon judged a lost culture recess. I don't think so, honey. Competition at Clusterfest in San Francisco alongside Alaska Thunderfuck, and it was one of the great episodes. If you want to

go back and listen to that episode it was. It was won by Rachel Pegram and it iconically features Joel Kim boosters I don't think so honey after sex when you fart and a little bit of cum comes out, which he did say in front of my entire immediate family in the great city of San Francisco, and I believe it tickled our panelists. So mun come came out. This is your I don't think so honey. Your time

starts now. I don't think so honey about trying to blame the safety of children on drag queens when guns killed children and Dreka drag queens don't kill children. But I think that's preaching to the choir. So I'm gonna say I don't think so honey to Jinks right now. You don't need to talk about that because everyone already knows. What I want to talk about is, I don't think so honey. If you're gonna walk down the sidewalk, especially in Times Square, you gotta keep up pace moving. You

don't get just slow down. You don't get to turn your head around and look this way. While you're walking that way, you don't get to walk forward to a breast at a snail space. Some of us are on our way to work. Some of us only have an hour long dinner break, and we've gotta go get new nails. If we've got to get new lashes, a new highlighter, and you are slowing us down in every minute fucking counts. So if you are gonna walk in New York City, if you're gonna walk in Time Square, you're gonna walk

in a brisk pace. That's just how it goes. If you can't handle it, get out of house, kitchen and god damn it. You know, it's so funny, like even just spending some time in New York, like you become this person who really is Like there's rules of the road, and in addition, there's rules about escalator etiquette. If you are standing on the left side, you have flopped. You are doing the wrong thing. The right side is for standing. The left side of the escalator is a lane for

people that want to walk up the escalator. If you don't know this by now, you will never never never know me, my fucking you. I feel like there is a real heterosexual entitlement to couples holding hands on the sidewalks. You do not see queer couples standing next to each other, no matter how many people are bustling down the street, just holding hands, as if it is their god given

right to block that much of the side. Straight people are convinced that everyone should celebrate their relationships at all times. Straight you are convinced that we are all so lucky to witness their public displays of affection. And it's just not so straight people. I don't give it shit. Single file. My partner and I walk single file, and that is part of why I love him. Thank you. Michael's a block ahead of me. That's partnership too. It comes, It

comes in all forms. You need someone to blaze the trail. I've been speaking of blazing the trail. There's two legends, legendary legends in the zoom. Um. This was so so much fun to have you both. We can't even tell you how much you've both just inspired us, made us laugh, made us scream, point at television screens and go oh my god, and what the fuck? And yes, and stages across the damn country. And I'm gonna imagine the world are also grateful and thankful. You're both amazing well be

much two way straight. The feeling is abundantly mutual, outrageously so I can only hope to run it into you guys at airports, all three of you. Yeah, I would love to run into you. I'd be like, where are you going? Can we coordinate like a Delta Lounge moment at some point? World Delta? Right, no Delta. I was just in the Delta Lounge last night and they were

doing a JFK. Well, it was packed, and so when they were doing a lovely moment of there's not just one pasta buffet, but two there, I said, thank you, thank you. I was just in JFK the other day and they did the same thing. They set up that little cart right that we're talking about day, a noodle cart like in the corner, and the Nathan's hot Dog cart somewhere too. Wow, that's what you need everywhere across

the country. And a Nathan's hot Dog cart, not just in New York, but the what the Delta Lounge at lag already, I gotta say, top notchy. Have you been to the new one in Los Angeles? I mean it's not that new No, it's really, it's really. Oh it's great. No, it's great, very good, well done, Delta. I ate barbecued ribs on a deck. Yeah really, there's that deck where you can walk, you can watch play. It's beautiful. Listen. I'm uncloud nine right now because I haven't had to

fly in like six weeks. And every airport, every airport is the most gender phobic place. Oh my god, next time I do this, I'm gonna do it. I don't think so honey about the gender phobia at the t s a security check? Oh oh my gosh. Well, every all the readers have to go, you know, see Jinks

on Broadway in Chicago. And in that spirit, bowen. We end every episode of this podcast Lost Culture, a critically acclaimed podcast which has been noted for the chemistry between a toast and it's insight into the entertainment industry with a song whatever happened to please may I? And yes, thank you? And how charming? No? There, master went last class? Last? Oh no, no, just that. Waken and listen. If you want more of that, go to the theater. Bye bye,