"Ms. Sadie Cohen" (w/ Tami Sagher)

Larry Owen's called a Skull of Josh Sharp, Aaron Jackson as Peter Smith, Peter Smith, and more to be announced. More Queer to be announced. Musical directed by the one and only Henry Koperski Son Monday, novembery at Joe's Pub, The one and only. It's our very first, ever last culture is to show at Joe's Pub. We love the folks over there. We're gonna be, you know, recording a

little video promo for it in the coming weeks. You might see it and you can get tickets at the Joe's Pub website, so please head over and do that, and then we have the gag. Of course, it's I don't think so honey Live at the Bellhouse on No. Yes, this is gonna be a pretty new batch of folks. We are really gonna show you some new faces, Darling. Our last one was like a Legends ball type gig. But this is gonna be such a fun, fresh experience.

It's gonna be so great. I can't wait for it. Yeah, you gotta get your tickets to our I Don't Think So Honey Live at the Bellhouse on no And if you're on the West Coast, Honey, I'm coming to you and I'm gonna be doing I Don't Think So Honey Live at the Region in downtown l A on December five. The lineup will be announced shortly as well the Bellhouse lineup. But this is gonna be so much fun. I loved our show that we did fun. I can't believe I'm missing this one. But you know what, it's for a

good reason, which is your wedding to yourself? Yes, just kidding his work, um, so listen, I cannot wait. And then selfishly, I want to just plug a little show that I do here in New York City at the Duplex. It's called have you heard of Christmas? Oh? I love this show. Thank you baby. I'm really excited it's gonna be on December eleven, December twenty two, so I'm gonna do that show three times and I really want you guys to come. You can get tickets, um, which are

on sale right now. Those are the shows, and that's the Gauntless Special Best Special Guests and that's musical directed by Henrykoperski as well. Yes, oh, I can't wait for all of these shows. Um. I will be three out of four of them for sure, So please get those tickets and check them out. Yes, look man, oh I see you? Why why and look over there? How is that culture? Yes? Goodness, ding don loss culture. He's just calling, uh, well,

there's no resta out there, is it? Okay, we define it to find what a no rest is for all the kids that don't know, because I didn't know until two years ago. I never cared for meteorology. I'll do a good thing this week, No bitch. Of all the sciences, it's although which is interesting. Of all the sciences, it's the most performative one. Right. Okay, So you're saying they need to be talented. No, but I'm saying, like it's it takes a meteorologist have to have star power and

have a science knowledge which is so interesting. Oh wait, I should like write a whole fucking you should write a piece on it should be a piece. And can I say something? Meteorologists often wrong? I mean it's just their job is to predict to like sort of um they have. They have a margin of error just inherent in the job. And I would say it's the biggest margin of error amongst the science. They're able to be wrong. And everyone's like, yeah, but that's not that's whether that's

part for the course. I don't like that very much. I think it's lovely. I think it's a beautiful like ease of pressure, Like you know, you don't have to be exact or impurific, just be loose about it. Can I say something? Ol Roker fine wine better with age, better with age? And I love that he He was the one who really spoke out against Meg and Kelly.

He was the one who I guess, well, you know, they said something on the seven AM hour, and then that carried over because later on the president of NBC News, Andy Lax, he was like, you're right, it's it's unacceptable. And I am thrilled sen Megan Kelly is I can't put of all of this. I can't believe the CIA drop. That's that's crazy. And what's even the more, the gag more that she was in talked with U T A and then they said, sorry, we can't take you now.

Oh my god. Kelly is without honey a talent agent. And it's actually a rule of culture number four. You got to have a talent agent in this talent industry. It's all about that. See, this is the thing, like I would assume that meteorologists have some sort of talent. You know, our roker is w W. We can look it up, we can look it up. Has you always done some credits and films? And you know we have

IMDb Pro accounts. I have i MDB Pro account. I pay an exorbitant amount of money for it just to check my star meter ranking, which is like in the fifty thousands, all constant. Yeah, but that's actually very privileged thing to say, because you know, I mean at all time, no, no, no, I'm always lagging behind you. Not that I keep score. Oh my goodness. We can't do this here. You can't do this here, not in front of our guests. We'll

do We'll do couples therapy. We'll go on Naomi in Andy's podcast, I feel I still am considering the couples therapy situation for us. Well, no, I shouldn't say that I don't think we need it. No, we we don't need it yet, but you should go into regular I need regular therapy. And it's the sick oh thing that I haven't gotten it yet. And I was thinking on the train today because I was a little sad today,

to be honest. Maybe it was the weather. Maybe it's just the weather I can't stand the right maybe okay, um, but I was feeling a little sad today and I was like, yeah, the therapy thing needs to happen for everybody. I mean, it's not just specific to you. It just everyone could benefit from it. And I'm entering an exciting new chapter in my therapy journey and that means that

what is it? Can you share? Oh? Yeah, sure? Um it's I was like talking to my therapist about this, like just like a hook up I had recently, and it was like yeah, but I felt some sort of shame about it afterwards, and she was like okay, like and she was like, do you feel comfortable talking about this here? And I was like absolutely, and then we're and like two minutes later, like I bring up the and this is this is super morbid and sad, but

I don't mean for it to be. But then but then we bring up the conversion therapy thing, and I was like, oh yeah, like I, at a very young age had an adult link shame to sexuality, sexuality and like or just sex in general. Like the exercise was

like he this, this, this there. This conversion therapist was like when I was seventeen, was like, okay, let's walk through every instance you've had a male attraction in the last you know, years or so, and and then like his whole the way, the thing that he projected onto everything was there is shame associated to each and every

one of these things. So he literally imprinted that onto me as I was like developing sexually, and I was like and so and then and then I didn't realize that until I didn't realize that link until there, until current therapist was like, wait, like this it is, this is something that we have to work through. And I was like, absolutely, let's do it. And I'm so excited. So it's gonna be great. I need to have things

like that it's perfect you. Everyone must so I don't think we should have the same therapist and we don't know absolutely she knows a lot about you, I'm sure. Well, and I'll talk about that in my therapy. Okay, oh my god, speaking of therapists, Speaking of therapists, I think we have like a true comedy therapy. Comedy therapy. She is, I mean, she is a true preeminent mind in the comedy world. To say something, please, I've actually been a

fan of this person. I've realized for eleven years. Here's what, here's why. Because Knocked Up. Knocked Up, you had a scene with Katherine Heigel where you played like her wardrobe girl and she's like, I forget what it was. Either she's not fitting into the outfit like she used to, or she's hungry or something or both. She's frustrated and like this man that was like trying to like talk to her. It's like away and it's just you. It's

just Tammy and Catherine. And Tammy goes, you know, your baby, they want you to gain a whole messive weight, and Kathyn Heigel just goes, are you fucking kidding me? I just remember like that exchange like I was like laughing so hard to me and all my high school friends were laughing so hard. And then like literally the scene ends with like being like, I'm sorry, that was really inappropriate, and she was like it's okay, it's okay, and it was just so good of those But that's when I

realized I first saw you. It's one of those scene Steelers that you're like, who is that? And since then, You've literally written for all of our favorite shows, And I would imagine, like our our listeners favorite shows thirty, How I Might Your Mother, Mad TV, back Inside Amy Schumer and featured on Inside Amy Sere Girls. I mean, like truly like this. It's gonna feel good to have touched so many of these formative television shows. We're gonna get into it, into it. We're so excited to have her.

Oh and Don't Think twice she was she wash My god, I I saw Don't Think twice in this gorgeous theater downtown in Denver with a bunch of en beautiful and pr love and motherfucker and they ate it up and they ate Tammy up. And so please give a warm You're welcome to our guest, such a fan like I'll smile too. Bid. No, you guys, like I was telling you, I am horrified at how long it took me to

find Last Cultures Does just a few months ago. And then I full I think I listened to every episode, which is hundreds of hours, and you've spent in my brain hundreds of hours. But explain because you because Tammy just recorded an episode of Seek Treatment, which I'm very excited to, but not a competition. Made that clear, watched the Instagram story about it. That's how obsessed with you guys I am. It's just you know, there's people out there who want to watch the world burn. One of

them Jill Kim Booster. He came on here and you'll hear his episode of Last Coulturesos coming out. It must have already come out, um, and he sets the record straight about the Last Cultures Treatment situation. I don't know that the Last Cultureista this one has come out yet, but before this episode it will. Okay, okay, okay, But I have to say, even in Seek Treatment he made it clear. Look, no, no, no, this is not a competition. It's just that this is you guys have had my

friends on exactly Tammy. No I'm well, I'm literally have been plunged in the depths of your pools. Yes, you love Pat Regan. Okay, so I hadn't even have Okay, So Pat Regan did the show called We Will Turn You Gay? Right that the name of it at Doug Close Marathon. I just stay to watch it because I love Brandon Scott Jones. One of the best is a light absolutely yeah, and so I just was like, oh see him watch it changed my life. It just reminded me of the joy of improv and the joy of friendship.

And also like Brian Foss, who has come on with for years, I have never seen him in provised like that, really physically and emotionally. I was just like, Okay, fuck straight people, I gotta got seriously like whatever Josh and was not Aron? Not Aaron? Aaron was So it was Aaron, Brian, Pat and BSh. I saw the instagram stories and the instagrams of you guys just all going out afterwards, getting up grabbing a bite. We grabbed a bite at bar Burger Culture and it was just like, who is this

delightful young man named Pat Regan? And everybody was like, whoever was at the show. I can't. Now I feel bad because I can't remember. And it was like, oh Morgan, you, Grace Jared, everyone with the three names. She was like Pat was my favorite improv student and like b S of course is like Pat's the best. And I was like, okay, I didn't even know. Yeah, I didn't know who this Pat was. And he was like I left improv and all this and now I just stand up. This is

only show. And I was like, okay, I'm gons asked started following him, and then he announced I'm going to do this show called Seek Treatment. I was like, that's a brilliant title. No idea who this cat calling character is? Whatever. I love a podcast, and so then I was like googling it. Of course it's not going to be on for weeks. But then the other thing you find in iTunes if you google Pat Regan as last cultureista, Oh my god. And then just years, just years, and it

just you guys became my nearest and ears. And then my heart jumped five million because you've mentioned like there's a Jeff Hiller episode, oh Gravid Water that I was in a scene with him, and I was like, oh, who are you? And it just like, I can't even and I've been talking about you guys other people. I was just telling Jason King yes, and you guys said Jeremy Bailer on I was Tyler. I always say Bailer, but it's biler but it's biler fully my friend, it's

actually true. And friends, yeah, I mean my friends don't mispronouncing. You gonna have Jeremy you have to yes, yes, which I've heard because I seriously have heard hundreds of hours of you guys. Can't believe that, but you guys have introduced me just so many amazing comedic voices, including your own. But also like so I was just like I've been telling people, I was like, you are the future of comedy. And then I was like, no, you're not, You're fucking comedy.

I was like, you guys are like not even the future of comedy. You're just straight up no, it's true. And it's also like then I was like, Okay, I need to be more on top of things because I need to know who the future of comedy is. But like I went and saw Larry Owens guys, Caroline, Yes,

it was phenomenal. Cat was phenomenal, Like in the other two comics on it were great except their stand ups and like they were very excellent stand up, But I don't love stand up like other people do, like God bless. It's just it's also like whenever anybody's like I hate and probably like I totally get it. I totally get it. But Kat and Larry are just it feels like that, right, it seems like an evolution. Yeah. I always say, like, I mean, it's it's so interesting that but it feels

like this something happened in New York. And we talked about this often, but because I also came up through UCB and so like, I was on MOD for about a year and a half and Katherine was on at the same time, and she did she was we were we were on while we were on the same night. We're on different teams, but um and I knew her just from seeing her to a characters around. She'd see me do my characters around. We kind of like, you know, we just knew each other like that, And I got

this sense watching her on stage. I was like, she can do so much more than what she's allowed to do right now in this moment. And I felt the same way. I felt like, you know, my like I haven't figured it out at and then you know, there was some musicians that also crossed over with comedy, and then it kind of became this thing of like let's sing and like let's kind of like embrace different kind

of mediums. And it just was weird because it also kind of felt like it really was the queer comedy community and like the Brooklyn community all coming together and then you seeb people who knew form really well all combining together and just kind of mishmashing to create, like you guys created with pop which I never I'm telling you, I feel like so many years behind the thing, but then you guys have created like Papula was fun, and you know, you know, I always felt like Populart might

have been. I said, if Papulette was happening right now, I think it would be huge. But because it was happening then, and we really were at the Pit a lot, like and the love the Pit, but it's very it's very community driven, like it kind of stayed within its bubble um. We did do a show at You See Me for a year, but like um, towards that point, we were kind of like the group was kind of

like you know, phasing out. But but I also have to say, like there's a thing of like musical theater that is very on the margins, and like it's less on the margins now, but as somebody who cannot sing does not enjoy musical theater, like I was very much like, yeah, it's fine that it's on the margins, like I was

part of the marginalization problem. But but then there's like craziest girlfriend now, and then there's like Larry and Cat and like what you guys doing, like that episode that Larry was on with you guys, which also, first of all, I don't think so honey my mind, it like literally gave me chill. Don't think about it. Him covered from it your own friendship. Oh, absolutely, Larry and I are.

But then Larry the other day, Larry keeps apologizing to me, not for that, but for something else that it should be that it was amazing, It was amazing Larry. Larry will say things to me all the time, and I just have and I just like accepted for what it is, which is just him. Like he was like the other day, he was like, oh no, like people, he was like people, as this is the nicest thing that was also veiled

in like an insult. He was like, you know, people people like you, people as smart as you were, always evil are always are always inherently chaotic and evil. And I was like, well, that's fully mean. I was like, you there's a tiny tinge of like mean too, and he was like, hello chaotic evil and I was like, I was like, oh, I was like, um maybe, I was like, I was like, but I don't think I am. And then and then like twenty minutes later, he was like, I don't know why I said that. I'm so sorry.

I was like, you don't worry he said it because it's hilarious. It's very sorry. He gave me a backhand and compment as well. He was like, I never worry about you want to say, and I know you're always going to kill, and like there's not always jokes, but like you always kill. And I'm like, Larry, I was like, I was here before you. It's so funny because so seeing him at Carolines like he fully he's it's insane.

It's insane. But it was also I went with Jason Kim, Jason, sorry, anytime you mentioned I'll be like, but it's also like you just use like a soundboard on your phone, but it was. We were sitting at a table with this girl who brought her parents, which was fine. We loved them until they did not shut the funk up all

the way through the show. And also like that you drink minimum just meant that they were talking more and more and more um, but she just kept being like, he's so nice really because he also like his stage persona is like fuck you, then we'll just not safe

please or thank you on stage. So I think it's also it's like comedic persona, but I also think, like, I don't know, like it's you know, it's it's hard when you're a people pleaser and if you end up like like me personally, I'm not gonna I don't know Larry at all. I've heard him on several podcasts, but I have to admit that does not mean that I

know him. But I'm a people pleaser, and I end up being my meanest when I am people pleasing too much, because you just feel like stepped on, even though I'm the one doing the stepping, you know what I mean, And I do feel like I mean, he always talks about like code switching I think like code switching is automatic people pleasing all right, well, and it's exhausting and

it makes yeah totally. I mean does that ever come through in your work, you would say, because I feel like you're seeing that in Larry is sort of performance persona and like that is like like his comedy is sort of like I mean, it's like sort of the vessel for that thing. Like when you write, is that is that a weird question? Like no, not at all, Like are you like in a room like are you I don't know what? What are the politics of that?

When you're in a writer's room where you're like, am I it's really interesting because so much of a writer's room is and it's different on different shows. Writer's rooms

are different on different shows. But um so, right now, I'm it Orange is a New Blacks and it is the most argumentative room that I've ever been, really and it's wild, Like I'm not used to that at all, And it's actually been really exciting and really cool and we really get into it about stories and it's as someone who's as conflict phobic as I am, it's been

really educational. Do you think that that's because like people that watch Orange as the New Black, Like they're not just watching it as a pure comedy, they're watching it because there are so many social issues A million about one million percents. Yeah, no, it is. And I would take the quote unquote off of it. I really would, and like and I also think, like, you know, all of us who are writers there now, we're all there.

Most of us are there from season six and seven. Um, there's a couple who have been there from season five and that's it. But but the stories from the beginning are like, this is a room that argues and cares and people care passionately Genji and Tara, like that's what they promote. But is because of the issues. Yeah, well,

I guess that would have to be. I mean, it's not something like you know, I would imagine like Amy Schumer, like her room is probably more is it more fun, like if it's a sketch show or kind of you know, I don't even know that it's it's much about that. I think it's also just like people not being afraid and you know what I mean, Like, I don't even because I've definitely heard about comedy rooms that are really argumentative, So I don't even like the chemistry of the room.

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, but I do think that this show, like we definitely get into it. Although like the ugliest fights have been about comedy. Like that's when I was like, I don't like this. This doesn't feel good anymore. We're not arguing about it's not even like even that general is literally like no, that joke needs to go in

the next beat. No it's not. And it's just like, yeah, it different sometimes like whenever we have to sit down and write it together, I'm always it's there's these little moments where it's like no, I think it's a beat and then this line or like this line, and it's like this moment of like I don't think will agree, okay, no, and you want it is the uglies. Okay, So two things, two thoughts. I had. One is okay, so do you, Holly Dias listen to podcasts? I don't have friends, but

my favorite murder Yeah yeah, we listened to it. Okay. They have famously gone to therapy together and they are astronomically successful, and so it's like, I don't think that's a bad idea for you guys at all, because you are in a business together. This is a partnership. And the other thing I was gonna say about writing with somebody is I really do feel like finding somebody that you write well with is like one on one that's like falling in love, Like it's very special and very rare.

Like you can write with a lot of different people, but finding somebody where it doesn't feel like you want to kill them and yourself. Yeah, I'm feeling that all the time with most people, especially when you get put in a room that you didn't necessarily you're happy to be in, but you didn't necessarily choose the people in it. And but I didn't necessarily, I mean, you did not

at all. Like, so it's like and then my thing is like you're at You're at us and now now um and so now it's just kind of like because you have a lot of friends there, it almost feels like, well, I had the option to write with someone I know historically before this, but that's not always the case. I mean, they can put you on different things and then you

have to navigate your own response to their creative process. Also, even somebody that you like, I mean, there have been so many people that I love and I don't necessarily love writing with. It's different, it's a different piece. Yeah, I totally agree. In fact, like we we now. I try to whenever we're like not agreeing on something, what I always like to say. And this is the same

with Sudi, who's my other writing partner. And like you know, when I've written chops with other people, it's always Dave I work with. It's always kind of like, let's vocalize the fact that this is a thing. Let's talk about like what it is that I'm agreeing on and potentially why, because I think that will like that will get it out in the open and then we can really actually get down to justifying why we both think this thing and then we can move on. I think it has

I don't. I'm just I'm genuinely curious. Well, I think that when you're really honest, at least you can understand where the other person is coming from. We had a breakthrough last weekend about we had an emotional breakthrough. It wasn't a creative break. It was the best kind of break there. It was fuel Well, okay, so here's the two. So we went up to the upstate New York Mets on the ground. Yeah, we were I actually was actively trying not suppose, because I was trying to enjoy my experience,

because we did for the very first time. I had never done this, but we dropped acid. Okay, And so no, I have never done acid or mushrooms, but I've heard mushrooms or the thing to do if you're in nature. My friend, my my weather friend who I won't say they said, she called themselves some mushrooms girl, And I was like, okay, and is that why you were like, let's do acid? My my? You know, I don't think

he'd mind me saying this. My ex Henry like he was a big proponent of, you know, as going out and doing acid and going out on the woods and or like in like some sort of park or something to be with nature at all psychedelic. So we did that and like that was amazing, just like literally sitting next to a tree and being like this tree is alive. Like and then later on we did have a moment where I realized that I hadn't said something to you that I think I needed to say to you and

you needed to hear. Can you share it? I will share it. So when the SNL thing came about, I feel like I'm going to cry right now. Ya um. Like then they say, well, we're offering your writing position, and then there's that moment where it's like, well, I take the writing position. And so it's that moment of like,

we're honest with each other, we're best friends. We talked about it, and this thing of like I have to decide whether or not this is happening, and he did decide to and that he had to call me and tell me that that was happening because there were plans for this podcast to move on and do other things. And and I think this weekend was the first time I ever told you that had you not taken that job, that would have broken my heart like that that would have like and and then I just like that was

when I said that to you. I realized that that was so important for me to say and for I think for you to hear. How did it feel hearing it? It was? It was it was really it was like overwhelmingly emotional where where it just like breaks critical mass and I just I had to I had to sit

with it. And like, normally I'm pretty immediate in my emotional responses to things, but it took me a long time, I mean a relatively long time, and then then when I started talking, that's when I started to tear up and cry, like it was it was it was, it was a big moment, but it was you know, and

the thing is too, like it's weird. I actually think if if I have to say what it is that kept me from saying that and vocalizing that, because we are very emotional people and we share a lot, I do have to say, I think it goes back to this thing of like, don't be too emotional or forthcoming or like whatever it is. I do think it's like what you were talking about before, the kind of repression

that exists inside um. But it's also like I'm so because oh my god, you are crying whatever, It's okay, it's okay, but like that was beautiful, but also like you just as easily could have said like it broke my heart that you took it, and I would have totally understood what you were coming from, and so like, I am so glad that you were at the place of it would have broken my heart if you hadn't

taken it. Like that's and I think I always knew that, But that's really like if I'm bowling, Like, I mean, wasn't there that Like I could totally understand it. If you would say, like it broke my heart that you chose it, I get it. I totally get it. But I also, like you know what I mean totally. I mean, I I spent the day sort of deciding. I just had like give or to like twenty four hours, give or take a few to decide. Um. And Matt knew, Like Matt was, was there every step of the way,

like throughout that whole day. I was. It was just it wasn't in like an open and shut thing. It was like I really had to like ruminate on it for like a limited amount of time because it's gonna be a life. Yeah, and and so uh because it's interesting that yes, this is also knows. Yeah it was.

It meant no to a lot of other stuff. Um Like, it meant turning down other like opportunities that were happening like concurrently that we're like already in motion, and it was it had to sort of put the kaibash on that on on those things. And so yeah, it was. It was a lot. It was a very it was a very fraud day. And then I called Matt and sort of like that, I like I knew that that was like this like sort of locus of the friendship that like we would refer back to for a long time.

It wasn't that exactly the time that you guys went to the view it was it was, Oh my god, okay, it was. It was like so that like the fact that that happened the same fucking day of just like you getting your heart stepped on in such a hilarious way, and then like Boeen, like fully like managing your feelings

because like that was, like you did hilarious. I don't think so, honey, But like watching it, like Bowen is fully like trying to be there for this kid who lost a hundred pounds, but also then like looking at you that the video of it got both much attention, but it wasn't but I was thinking about it of course.

But it's also I will say this as a third person, it would not it only existed in relationship, so of course it can feel like oh my god, Bowen, the slow clap, But like the thing that was so amazing to me about it was the friendship and the thing that I love about your guys in your podcast is the empathy and the love and that's what all of that was. So it was also just like your and it is like it is funny because like I know,

she means everything to you. And oh, I need, I do need to tell you that my time at mad TV, I met her the day after she was because you got a shot American Idol sketch with Debora Wilson, Wilson Whitney. It was it was it was it was Whitney. It was like it was like it was it was like all these has beens who like out of the fact that you remember, I fully do know God was do you know where that you know what that was, which then gave birth to grew. I'm telling you it was

derived from that. I love that. You guys. How amazing Deborah Wilson is she has been like my Rodolph is amazing, amazing. But Debord Wilson had the best Whitney Houston, without question, fucking that cast. I will say, Okay, this is Stephanie Weird,

the best of all time. Even just Michael McDonald as like a queer Like people didn't know it at the time, but you look back and you're like, yes, that was what he was allowed to be on the show totally, but like he's he's you know, doing gankbusters and like directs a million TV shows all the time, but he also has kind of your story. Well, but it took him even longer to come out because he was Orange County grew up and like you know in this like

Orange County is the long island. Yeah I believe that. Yeah, I believe that. Yeah, that cast was absolutely stacked. As you met Kelly the day after, she wont what you guys shot that the day after she had the same streaky highlights. Oh my god, remember you can never forget those iconic blonde streaks. Yeah, as your mom my mom famously said, you know that that's the only person who can pull it off, which is so questionable. So also, like you are not done meeting her like that was

just not time. I will say, I'm happy that it did not happen on live television, yes, because I've also talked about how I did the Stern after show the day she was on and I she was coming out, and I literally went and went and hid because I was like, I just cannot not this is not the time. I'm not strong enough to meet her right now. I had thought about meeting her the night before because it was happening and I was excited to be on Howard.

I love Howard and I was going to do the after show, and I was thinking about the fact that I could meet her, and I started to cry. What would be can't meet her on television? I get it, I get it, And you can't meet her in the audience and like thankfully getting me. So what would be like the perfect controlled environment for you to meet Kelly?

I think that like maybe if she was like like backstage at some event or something, I think that I would have to like maybe like approach her and be like like and maybe if I'm like somebody that she might know, like I don't know, have to be mean ideally, like we're talking ideal. She's coming to see you guys perform, Can you know what I mean? So it's not like you have to tell your whole story from the beginning, like she knows your story and she's coming. Yeah, do

you want to know something? Fucked? Of course our booker reached out to her people and they responded, yeah, they responded, So it is like not outside the round with class, of course not. But I will say this, I will, I will, I will, but that she comes on, Oh my god, well who knows any I mean honestly, I'm like she's in the audience. She's like she's like fully on the Oh yeah no, I'm flipping it, but I

would never allow it, Okay, So I okay. So the other thing is is like being a second city for years and like famously being around people who become famous. You are pure Chicago to be and like the best and all the best ways in Chicago just grew up there too. Yeah, I feel like you were Like the fact that you knew you Chicago just like makes my

head explode. I feel like anyone, anyone when you hear that anyone go ahead, like went to University of Chicago, I'm like, like, you went through that essay process and all that, okay, but also it was not differ Yeah, I mean I did did did an essay? Right, you did? Ana, But like now it's like they're crazy. Well now there's thing. Yeah, they have so gotten off on like how small the percentages of people that they accepted. And this is the comedy major university. No, no, no, no, but it did

not exist. When is there a kind I'm not I'm not knowing what you guys talking about the University of Chicago just like one of it's like it might as well be in ivy leagues and and like and like they're like now, like the personal statements that you write for the school specifically are like, um, they're not just like talking about a personal experience, They're like, okay, now, like for this this section of the essay, right, um, a five hundred word dialogue with the following words in

its seagull like spoon, spatula like like sounds just like impress. It's just like fun if you're like they're pushing you to like do stuff that you would never do in another film, because because that was my dreams school, University of Chicago really did and why you was not your dream school? I mean, wow, some people dream different, some

people dream different. So still it's biolo remember the number? Okay, sorry different different, But you were talking about, so how much has your life been determined by the fact that you went to n y U. And isn't that everything everything about? Because because I think it's like, you know, we essentially did start our professional careers as a nineteen

year which is an advantage. Um you were talking about second Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, being around people that like watching them get s n L while you are across the stage from them, you know what I mean, Like watching them get whatever they get, like all that stuff, and then just being like on stage and being like I am the person who when the show is happening, you're not watching me, which is like such a mind funck.

So I've so been in that position. Um, But then like look at like Natasha rothwell if you totally and who's like I love I love Insecution, one of the most exciting shows that is out there, I know. And then she's going to be in freaking the next Wonder Woman. I cannot believe this. But it's also like Jesse Klein, Let's face it, Matt, nobody likes. Going to the doctor

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business you quadruple of the joy in your life. Like it's really like when you and that, like that is why I cheered up when you were like it would have broken my heart if you said no, because I was like, it took me a while to get there, and I'm so touched that you're there and I'm not.

You know it, it's still a fucking process, so like it will change and all that, but if you choose to accept that joy, you have so much more joy in your life because honestly, everybody is getting stuff all the time, so why not love it when people you love are getting it? Do you know what I mean. I'm just like holding myself just like listening to all of this. I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't really

have anything to add. It's just I'm just so curious about well, and it's also I'm not I'm projecting totally on you, but it's really scary to be the person who gets stuff because that's also happened to me, where I'm just like, this is terrifying and I feel all alone and I can't aren't complain about it because I'm more successful than my friends, and I have a friend who's still a dear friend who has a hard time you know, just there in that position or yea, they're

no nut. She is in a position of not getting work, and so it was really hard in our friendship because it was like, I can't share things with you because I'm constantly protecting you from kind of not a great side of your character, and it's making you a bummer because it's also it's not just with me that you're having this, You're having this with other friends. And it's like, it would be so much more fun if we could

all just celebrate. And then you know, sure enough because it does happen, not on our timelines, but it happened for her fifteen years later that she's like got a really big, nice thing and she which is great, but also how much greater would it have been if she could have enjoyed all of us every step of the way. Yes, And you know that's I guess too, that like just not that we're not that tripping on asset made me

see this, But I was looking. I was standing there and Study and I were like holding hands looking at the fucking sky, and I was like, oh my god, it doesn't matter. Everything is so big, Like it's just like we are so small and all you have is like joy and like good energy you can give other people, you know what I mean, Like the ego doesn't matter, Like we're all it's lucky enough to be out here, healthy and doing this kind of stuff, and like we get to like do the ship for once in a while. Yeah.

And how awesome that your friend got this and got the recognition that he deserves deserves. Yeah. And it's also just a positive in the industry, do you know what I mean? Because it's also like the more people we love whose work we love, get stuff, the better it is for us, because that means that everything is changing. But well, I mean, hey, don't think twice there you go there obviously is media already written about Isn't that wild that he did that? What's so crazy about that

movie is souper big lei. It was not from the improv world. He had done like improv and college and then he went into stand up and did amazingly well in stand up like early twenties was on Letterman. He was right, isn't that wild? He's such a regular guy that you forget how wildly successful. But it's like him and Millanny and cruel were all in that little Georgetown coat. Yes, yes. And also the thing different species stand up in improv is like you kind of blow up on your own totally,

which yeah. So then he started doing improvagand a few years ago and then he did that this American life thing, I mean, like wasn't that it was like him like him sort of. He and Ira both started doing improv. I think it was like a magnet or something. Magnet. I started taking improv classes at Magnet. I don't know that that was connected to big I don't know exactly, but but big Lea I did a show at the Doug Close Marathon called micro Bigleys Dreamy remember, and I

wasn't there for that. But then a few months later he was like, I want to do that again, and he asked gathered and because I lost this other job that like broke my ego, I was able to go and do that with him, which is such a dream.

I want to talk about this more. So what are I just I want to talk more about these examples of the end of one opportunity just sort of like drawing a straight line to like the beguinion, because it always does seem like you are someplace so cool, you know what I mean, Like, damn, he's running for that. I mean, I just the things I just listed. I was like, that's the um contemporary pop cultural stuff for people that love television already, people that love comedy, well,

that's prestige stuff. Thank you. I've been so fucking lucky. And it's also one of those things of like the narrative you know what I mean, always feels different than the right right, it feels like different than how it is on the inside. And the thing too, So that thing of drawing a straight line that's actually in Bertha back exercise that is, have you guys ever read her? I don't type of thing, yes, yes, yes, yes, Steering by Starlight, Find your north Star. Can't recommend it enough,

can't recommend it enough. Oh my god. She has so many amazing exercises. So one of them is like, think of a time that you were so incredibly happy and fulfilled and like yourself, and you know what I mean, like and pick now a time that you were the opposite, and then you can draw that straight line between how one thing led to the other. And once you do that exercise, you're like, oh my god, I did not even see that and it's a hundred percent true. She

also has this really cool exercise called shackles on shackles off. Okay, so this feeling of and it's hard to get yourself to do because you're like, well, I don't because it

makes you feel bad. But it's like a meditative thing where you have to think of like a time in your life and like really do it, like close your eyes and feel it in your body where you felt like you didn't belong you felt you know, like nobody got you, where you felt terrible about yourself and all that, and really go there and really feel it in your body and do that thing of like how does my head feel? How does my neck feel? You know what I mean? Like really find that feeling in your body

and then shake it off. And then do the same thing with like a great time where you felt most and like really feel that in your body. Yep, and that shackles off. And then when you are trying to decide something like how it something makes you feel because it gets so convoluted, she's like, is this a shackles on her shackles off feeling and really going to your body. That's really good, Yeah, because it really is that simple?

It is, but it's hard to make yourself do because it's also complicated, because there's also sometimes it's not just a thing, it's a relationship and you're like, how does this relationship make me feel? Yeah, I mean you've talked again, listen to hundreds of hours of you, but like your a relationship with Henry again, don't we've really just really met.

But it sounds like he's a beautiful person that and I only know that from you, but like you've also talked about like that was a relationship that was over months before it was over, and how hard it is to let go of that, and like it's really terrifying to look at something with somebody that you love that's still in your body. You're like, the dynamic as it is now is not right and that's so scary to

look at. Well, I think that what I've learned is that loving someone and having that person be right for you are are they are mutually exclusive? Are there not mutually exclusive? They're not the same, They're not the same thing. Um, So that's it's so hard about it is knowing, Wow, I'm not good for this person. This person is not good for me. Unfortunately, I love them like family. And then I said, I said recently, like actually said this

on Katherine in Pat's podcast. I said, it's this thing that's happened over the past like eight months, which, inconveniently enough, it's happened over the past eight months when I was dealing with a lot of other stuff where it's like, you really have to move on from this relationship. I had to tell myself, like because I had not, and um, he sort of moved on, and UM, so I was like, wow, it's like this feeling that you have that you have to actively decide to just put away, you know what

I mean. It's this thing that's never going to because it's like it's like something in the world that feeling already takes up space and so it's never gonna not take up space. But you have to decide to take it and like put it in the back of the closet and maybe you don't shut the door of the closet, maybe the doors will open, but whatever, but you do have to just put it away. But that feeling for

someone else doesn't go away, and that's what's hard. But it's like something understand it's meditation it's like what thoughts that you like, it's letting the thoughts go by, or said that old Native American thing the two wolves. Oh no, no, no, no, I was just I was just responding to you, linking this back to this meditative practice of just letting something go. Yeah, where you're like, oh, just because I have a thought, I don't have to dwell in it. It's just gonna

go by, like a car in the road, right. I mean, if you're if you're talking in these terms amount of putting something away in a closet, if you're like giving it some vague like temporal thing like that, Like I think that just means that you're displacing that feeling and you're going to address it later on. This this soundstract, abstract, but like just I mean I feel like letting it just go and dropping it completely, just not caring where

it lands might be like just just see how that feels. Yeah, Because there's also something so loaded about saying I'm putting it in the claset, especially giving your experience of the imagery. I will say this, you know what I've discovered muting

on Instagram. Muting on Instagram has saved my life because now, I tweeted to all the boys I've muted on Instagram, like, I'm just kind of like if some if I if I get like an obsessive feeling about like someone, if somebody hurts me, if someone's not good for me, I just mute them. And it's crazy that social media even has this power. And I was talking about feeling a little depressed a couple of months ago and Sudi was like,

it's social media. I think, especially like when you start to get a little bit more attention, it's exciting because social media is like hi, like we're all we're all looking, and it's like whoa. That's also not real, and it heightens all these kinds of emotions that you would ordinarily have. So the muting has been big. My friend and night we talked about it like Big Max, where it like feels really good and then you feel like hell, hell

it's Big Max and it's Max. Um Okay. I you mentioned earlier that a lot of times the narrative doesn't match up with what's going on on the inside. I mean, you don't have to get into too much detail. What's like for you when someone comes up to you and says, oh my God dammy, what what an amazing sort of resume? What? What a background? What a pedigree? Like, I mean, what is like what is the thing that you're dying to tell to to like personal highlights stuff you've done. Oh

oh yeah, I was going to positive direction. Sorry I was, but yeah, no go positive. Sorry I don't listen to me, No, no, no, I'm not sure what I would say, Yeah, I'm not I'm not sure what I would say for personal highlight, Like, honestly, probably personal highlight is some improv shows that I've done,

and they are also the best. Well that's really kind, but getting to like, there's some like shows that I've done where I was like, wow, like that felt moving and that felt moving for those of us on stage and for those of us in the audience. And I also love how ethereal it is. I love that it's fully gone and it's yeah, yeah, I do love that.

And in terms of like what it's funny people say, like looking at the resume, it feels a little like social media to me, where it's like you have a very specific idea of what my life has felt like because you've seen the jobs, but it's you know, you don't see the eight months where I wasn't working and didn't know where the next job would be, and like

how terrifying that was. Or also like it's funny like and we do it ourselves in our lives, but like looking back at my twenties, I'm like, oh my god, that was the best. But I remember being in my twenties and being like what the fucking happened? And I don't know what my job is going to be and all that, and like yeah, where you're just like, hope, it was so great because it was just about the joy of it and you're like, no, there was so

much fear and uncertainty. It is. It's very rose colored glasses, like but I mean you sort of can't help but have that weird, misty eyed thing about it. It's like, oh, it was this formative thing, but you didn't know it

back then. But I definitely try to then turn it back onto what I'm doing now, Like, especially when I'm feeling like then, I definitely try to be like Tammy of how many years ago, how would she feel like that she gets to do this, and like getting that attitude of gratitude that is a huge exercise I think where It's like whenever I start to feel really bad, I'm like, hold on a second, and I actually like this is maybe sounds a little gross, But sometimes I

will list the things I've accomplished healthy and I look at it and I'm like, fuck, yeah, like I did all I did so many other things I wanted to do, honestly. Like It's like when I was like, you guys are the future of comedy. No, you're just comedy. I'm just the end of comedy. But like I do feel like such a like a kinship to you guys, And like, do you like how I was in my twenties? Do you know what I mean? I mean I've been I like, this is so crazy. But like when we had friend

Gillespie on the show. I said to her, I was like, you were the improviser that I used to seek out, you know what I mean? Like when I was going to UCB classes and there was also you. I mean, I remember Tammy adian Spo. That was one of my favorite shows that I had seen. And then Tammy and Spo did it? Did it like a two proud show like a couple of years back to cum right or was it Tammy? It was it always Tammy Adian Spo.

It was it was Tammy and Shannon have friends and yes, yes, okay, so that was just so great and like and just it's crazy to even be like that my friends that I'm friends with, Brandon Scott Jones, you know what I mean to get it, but I'm friends with Josh Barbardaron Jackson, you know what. It's just like and I think they would like roll their eyes and say okay, b and me saying that, but like, really that's those things that

that is meaningful. I mean, and you guys and like all those people are the people that inspired I know, us to even do what what we felt was like in our hearts to do in comedy. But by doing what you guys feel in your hearts, like this podcast feels so true and that's like what people respond to. And that's like why I do feel like Kelly Clarkson is going to be on you, like that's how it's going to happen. Can I tell you why I think I love her so much? And I know why. It's

because she broke out. I think I've told you this. When she broke out, I was twelve, and so I think I had just felt realized I was gay at eleven? What did you realize you were gay? Oh? I can't put a time to it. It's funny you if I don't know that you've ever talked about conversion therapy on the pod? Yeah? Wait, what's the non main parts are Patreon? Yeah, so you're still not going to talk about it. No, I'm I'm not gonna talk about you because it's a

Patreon exclusive thing. Because we do the RuPaul's Drag Race recaps on Contestant this year, Dusty Raybottoms talked in depth about going through conversion arab and so when we were reviewing that episode, Bowen did detail a little bit of his um but yeah, and it's so funny because it was something that I thought I had like rear view mirrored behind me for all these years. I was like, I'm I'm so past that, I'm a I'm living out loud.

It did happen. So it was it was the first sort of outing, which wasn't even an outing, was just my parents finding this like saucy like I am transcript and then with just some random guy and on the on the internet gay robot. It was a gay robot and then um so he found that UM, and it was just like two weeks of just coming home to like my parents like crying, like us all crying at the dinner table. I only think my dad cry once

before this, when my grandpa died. And then I would just come home to him crying every day and I was like what I was like I was And then eventually you're just like, I have to fix this, and so you'll do any responsibil totally. And then and then my parents, uh, just having this sort of gap and cultural understanding, which I don't begrudge them for at all. They were just like, well, this is a problem, and

what do we do we fix we fix it? Um he has There's plenty of Native Americans, not Native Americans, white Americans who do the same UM. And so you know, they found this grip and done where they found this guy in Colorado Springs who went by an alias and who like had very just had a very sort of why did you go by an alias? Because they constantly get harassed by like activist groups and that are trying to do the right thing and shut this thing. I

love he is closing. He's literally cloaked in shame doing this thing where he's that same exactly. There are so many layers of shame to this because anyway it was he was in collar, out of Springs, Like we're focused on the family. Is like all these like mega churches are super religious, religiously fertile place. And it's your older sister, she like off in college at she's in college at this point, she's trying to um and young. I think

she's listening. She's trying to um sort of straddle the line and sort of played the both sides, and she's she I don't give her the credit, but she really had to moderate and mediate a lot of stuff back then, and from far away, from far away, she was doing something like I'm having her own formative experiences in college totally like she you know, for her to sort of be like like, you know, sort of learned into this

other thing. So it's I think it's very different being Chinese but being Israeli, and like we moved when I was three and my brother was thirteen and my sister is eight. Like it's also like you feel like your siblings are the only ones who really get it with your parents. And so even like when my parents were being wrong, I still fundamentally felt like they were being right,

do you know what I mean? So it's also like I would be surrounding people being like that's insane, that's ridiculous, and being like, well, but you have to see it from their point of view. So that's where sibling really comes in, because they see it from their point of view. That's essentially what she did. And then at first my response was just was to lash and be like how can you like, like, how can you sort of not pick pick a side? Like how can you try to

understand them? Because because your dad, because you're the one who's in pain, I'm the one, but it's also so are they, and it's so unbearable. So yeah, so so just would would you know, drive an hour and happy tway with my dad? And then those were I mean, those were actually bonding experiences between me and my dad weird way where we would just have like conversations that have nothing to do with it. It's like three hours of one on one card time, which is like, you know,

fraughten whatever. But that wasn't even I mean, that was like the highlight of the whole thing, because the sessions themselves were just I mean, they started out as just playing old therapy like talk therapy with somebody with a really fucked up agenda totally, someone with like you know, quacky diplomas on the wall. And then um, by the end, that was when he started this exercise of just let's walk through all these different times you felt attracted towards

a man, how did you feel in your body? He would just try to apply these like just like like, didn't you feel terrible about yourself while you were attracted to this person? That's what the sources. And then by the end, yes, when in your adolescence do you feel anything sexual and not feel horrible totally? And then and then that's that's true for everybody, true for everyone. And then the last session, um was when he was just trying to like just give me some parting wisdom about

the whole experience. Was there like we're going to do twenty sessions or was it like it was limited because the timing of it was I was going to college immediately after. This is the summer before college, summer before you all closeted for n y U for such a and your parents just being like, oh my god, we have to do this well, um, and then, but the the n y U thing came out of and it's so funny that just everything that's happening now is is sort of like a result of that, is is butterfly

effected out of that. But my sister was already at a YO, so she was sort of the watchful eye. And that's like another thing that like she was foisted with and that we haven't talked about. But um, anyway, you need to do acid with her. I need to do askid with her. I don't know she's a mom that, but she she's not frustrating anywhere. No, totally. Um. But the last session he just tries to like he just starts going into this anecdote about a former patient of his.

I him who well he's and he starts he narrates in the third person. He was like, so the sky's driving down the highway in California, gets off at Sandbergodina. It's two yem He stops by Denny's and then he looks up in the waiters there, and the waiter starts making eyes at him, and and then he switches to the first person and then he's like, and I was like,

am I really going to have sex? With this guy like starts to sort of and then catches himself like mid story, being like, oh, I just I just outed myself because he was like this was a couple of months ago, and like this is a couple of months ago, Like like this is a couple of months before, like before this, before this last session with him, he said, this had just happened. So this had just happened. And then it was like very obvious to me that I

was like, oh, this is all a fucking ship. So thank god you got that little peek where you like, this does not work, does not work, and even the person who is administering this kind of quote unquote treatment that I literally stop and then one million percent like that. Honestly, I was just like, you gotta write this, you go. And the best part was after, like my dad had very politely like, if you have any sort of referrals for people who do this in New York, we would

love that. And then the funniest to me, this is the funniest thing in the world. After our session ends, we're saying goodbyes, and then he pulls out the sheet of paper and he goes, so, um, these are the names I was able to find of people who do this um in New York, but um, you know, it's not a lot of it's not a lot of people. And the closest person is in New Haven, you know,

like sound like Connecticut town, like fifty miles away. And I was like, oh, yeah, okay, this is We're not going to keep this going because people don't do this like in New York, and they just don't do this in general, Like he was, I don't know, I no wonder if there was no one in New York, because that you wouldn't be able to a keep that practice running in New York. Like there you're exposed to the fucking right things. What's so terrifying to me about like Okay,

that's so obvious and blah blah blah. And then it's our fucking vice president some of you who absolutely believes in it and puts money into it, and we're just like, yeah, I don't know. So anyway, that's that's the whole sort of when did you come out to your parents for real? And we're like for real, Um, this was the beginning of senior year of college, so it was so it was it was like me kind of going back into

the closet. After my sister graduates that semester, I came out, tell my friends like Imat and the rest of the comedy people, and in you, and then it spent about a year and a half closeted again um or closeted to my parents, but out to everyone else, and then that sort of I remember when you even came out at college. It was like something you had said, but like it was like we were to take it with

a grain of salt. It felt like that really it was like not confirmed and interesting, Yeah, what do you mean? Like it was like it was we had heard that he had come out and went back in the closet before, And this is now we were as close as we are now. This is when you were fighting over that girl. That's a girl. That girl is like just like I have no one in my life she's doing. But I met you. I met you and we were both quote unquote straight, and then you were I was gay first,

and then you were gay. But we were told that you had been also gay two years before, and then you went back to the closet, and so we no one was really could be sure. I don't know if I can trust him college. Wait, we have to ask Tammy the question. We haven't even even asked Hammy the question.

Let me put my button on what I said. One which was the reason I liked Kelly Clarkson is because being twelve, um, I saw someone America fall in love with someone for being who they were, and I thought, Wow, maybe someday someone will fall in love with me for who I am. And so then I was like, I was like, well, not yet, but one day I'll come out of the closet and then then I can be Kelly Clarkson levels of beloved. But you saw her and

you hung you having that hope on her. She was huge for me because she was I just saw like America fall in love with her, and she seemed like you know, at the time, I think I was very easily manipulated by that ship. But it's like she was the perfect George W. Bush Arrow girl next door, but she wasn't because she was also being told nonstops she was too big, like by like by the gatekeepers by you know, Simon cow very easily felt like it could

be justin Guarini, you know what I mean. I think I wouldn't have been surprised either way, but I think, I mean, if it is rigged, which I'm sure those shows are, um, I think they made the right quote unquote right decision um, and like, but um yeah, I think that the reason she's been so lasting is because I think there's an entire generation of of women who look at her and they say, you know what, I don't have like a stick thin physique, My weight fluctuates.

And I think a lot of gay men do attach to her because I think at a very formative time, like she was like relentlessly herself and her personality, and I think everyone kind of just like really gravitated towards that. She's just authent in a way and also obviously incredibly

supernaturally talented. But I do feel like that authenticity even more than the fans that it attracts, because as you are seeing on social media, people liking you is a fickle fucking beast and will change and you just cannot. It's like, uh, I think it's an allen On thing. That my friend said to me was like, other people's opinions of you are none of your business. And I was like, wait, but it's literally my business, and she's like,

it's really not you think it is. It's literally none of your business and you can lose your mind about it. But like her being authentically yourself, I feel like is what has made her be consistently able to make music, you know what I mean, whether or not people like the music is and she'll always remind you how good she is. Like that's the thing is. It's like she's never going to stay in the limelight because of a

stunt she pulled. She's going to stay in the limelight because she was she gave an amazing performance on some show, you know what I mean, or like like that's the thing is, like if like every three years, like she has like a viral moment, like when she sang it Obama's second inauguration, My country says of the it was like just so unbelievable, and that that's more famous for being because I don't remember it at all. I remember

hearing about it, like everybody knows. I'm happy to put the spotlight back on it because go check out that every thinking about that was the one where she famously lip sync to National Anthem and Kelly sang live. I'm sorry, but it's that's true. It's not a job it's just people remember it for being that. But also that was a moment for Kelly Harson as well. Oh my gosh.

So it's also like having just seen Larry Owens perform and like starting to cry just as he's about to go on stage, and I was like, what is it about this? And it's like, oh, it's because talent will out, do you know what I mean. It's like and it's not even about like what other people say. It's like how much I've internalized that ship And just like I feel like Kelly Clarkson, I'm sure she internalized ship, but she also didn't let it shut her up and she

is out spoken to um. Let's ask the question. Let's ask the question, Tammy Seger, what was the culture that made you say culture is for me? Honestly Second City? Because we saw it when I was a kid, Like I grew up in Chicago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we grew up and my parents would go to Second City and this is at the time where like you'd go and they would sort of decide where you sit, and my mom would fully lie about not being able to hear

well sit right up front. I was too young. I saw Steve Correll yeah, Bonnie Hunt and cast Lenetta, Yeah, Mary Gross so like Tim Kezarinsky, like since I was a little kid and did not understand most of this stuff, but no, I fully remember seeing Steve Correll and Steve Colbert. We're in a show together. Oh my god, where they did They did the waiter bit maybe or was that

before or after anyway, amazing. I doesn't remember the waiter bit, the water bit where they're um, they're just like like they for someone, like they were explaining the specials of the night and they just for some reason it makes them super nauseous. So they're like so they're just like like like on the verge of vomiting as they're describing. It's funny. I don't remember that so funny. But wait,

that's oh my god. So what was the biggest difference between Okay, we'll talk about but also I have to say, like seeing Second City and being like and this is also when people in the Second City weren't blowing up like even like maybe they get s n L maybe like that was the biggest thing, but it wasn't like Judd apataw times. So I remember seeing Steve Carrell and being like, oh, that's so sad he's never going to be anything because he's so talented. And then it was like, oh,

he's on the Dana Carvey Show. That doesn't last, you know, more than a minute. And then it was like when he got forty year old Virgin, or even like when inkor Man happened. Oh wait a minute, so yeah, and then you but you were pretty much ingrained in that system at that point, maybe not even like so I was a math major you've seen, and like, I really didn't see how it's going to happen. And then I did.

I wrote a paper about improv and yeah, so then I got into the improv group there, and that's when I was like, I love this so much, Tammy. I mean, you are basically yeah, I totally spaced. I knew you were a math major you've seen, but I totally spaced on just this. The trajectory being like not necessarily a straight line either for you feel like and it didn't

feel like it would ever get anything. And it also felt like I remember when I was like, I gotta I'm going to submit to some shows and like somebody from Daily Show and like fully told the producer and I was on main stage you know, which is like the highest thing you can get. And like I said, like, we're looking for writers, and the producer there didn't he decided who he wanted to tell to submit, and I

wasn't one of the people. But I, you know, like and and this is what I haven't taught at TOM But when I have taught, I've always been like, don't worry about impressing me. There's a million people that I'm trying to bring up right now, but I'm like, but everything that I've gotten has been through people that I've

come up with. So Alison Silverman, who's a brilliant writer and you know, one of the you know, original people at col Bear, but she was at The Daily Show and she worked there and she got that who knows. I still don't quite understand how she got it, because she got it from like working on like, you don't know, Jack, a game show on we just playing. She worked on that as like a video game, and especially in Chicago at that time, felt like you were nowhere, you know.

And I was like, how did you get the Daily Show? And she's like, you know, there's certain types of a year that you submit. I'll tell you. When she told me when and it was like, I, you know, I and I got that job offer, but I also then got the job offer at Mad TV, and then I chose Mad TV, which I was like, okay, I did that, But it was also because I didn't I didn't fundamentally want to write sketch or jokes. I wanted to write longer narrative stuff, and I just like it was very

hard decision. I had that like twenty four hours of like what am I going to do? And then uh yeah, and then I decided to go. It was also, this is how long ago it was, but it was right before it was before Daily Show was Union, right O. That's it was pre nine Leve and the Yeah, and it became because comedy schedual, but he became Union very

soon thereafter. UM wow, yeah, yeah. I'm curious about what was the gap between you graduating college with a math degree and you thinking I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this comedy thing. It's weird because so I, um, I got hired for something called Booms Chicago, which is a y was this close to going. I was like in a final call back for the thought that was like four years ago. Yes, I didn't know that I

did experience like it was really good. It was the third year, so it wasn't even year round like now they like sign people for seven year long contract year thing. That was like a two year commit wrap. Mine was like seven months. Yeah, And it was like you fully had to go and hand out newspapers that like advertising the show, like you had to do two hours. It's called kranting for every show. But I was so bad at it that I ended up like doing bookkeeping, like can I do this? But I got it while I

was still in college. Wow. Great, And it actually was the beginning of turning things around with my dad because things were really bad with my dad and I got this. I wasn't supposed to. We had this funked up agreement where I wasn't supposed to do any theater and it was but at this point and then I was in therapy and my therapist we'd onto therapy with my parents and me, and then it was just turned into therapy

with me. So then it was like she kind of had this role of like she knew my parents, so I didn't have to spend the whole time defending them, if that make sense. And explaining what does. So we had this fun up agreement where I could live not at home as long as I did not do any theater, which included even taking like a class, and she was just like, yeah, they just want you to lie, like they've set up a situation where you lie. And I

was like okay. So I performed under the ridiculous stage name of Sadie Cohen because I was like everyone and see like I needed a stage name. But I got this job and it meant like, oh shi it, I'm gonna have to go to Amsterdam. I'm gonna have to leave college before I graduate um. And I remember calling my brothers ten years older than me and being like,

how do I do this? Because what I was gonna do is just call and be like I got this, I'm going by and he was like, instead of asking about for permission, ask him what he thinks, okay, like, not ask for permission, I'm asking for advice. And so I did and it wasn't like can I do this? It was like, hey, this happened. I didn't get into the details of all the auditions that I should not have been doing and or what a selective process that

is anywhere yeah, you couldn't understand that. It was well, again, this is how long ago it was. It was like when there was this book called Let's Go, like Let's go Europe, and they had just had a shout out and Let's go Europe. So it was like this like yeah, and so he was like okay, let me think, you know, and then he came to the conclusion like I should go. It's like, okay, well I'm going anyway. So who was

there while you were there? Um? So this was before Seth Meyers like he was the year before he went the year after, I should say, so, um yeah, that's he's one of the ones they say, now you're like and Seth oh no, that he was the one who broke it open for like everybody. But but then coming back from that, you know, and also I started college young and I'm born in December, so I was there at like twenty so even though I'd like taken time off from school and graduated, like, it all ended up

being okay. And then I got back and I got Second City within a couple of months because at that point they knew, like you had been real seasoned by you can just tell on the audition you can just tell that somebody's been on stage. Yeah, and uh so I really was really lucky. So I just came back and I just finished up school. I just had like a class. So I finished up and had a gig. But you finished up and graduated with a degree. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

great amazing. I mean not that like, no, I know, but I was, you know, I didn't have my school diploma, so it was important that I get a college diploma. So cool. I mean a math major University of Chicago would have a math degree from University of Chicago would have made my dad like, oh my god, I can't even tell you how much I understand all of that stuff. And like seeing it's a very similar. It is. It is, it's you know, it's it's it's it's intense. An immigrant

father crying is like something that happened. Wouldn't you know how much they've sacrificed. And this is the thing, Okay, And just to really quickly loop it back to like the parental thing with the conversion to everything, I'm reading Joy Luck Club right now. It's all about mothers and daughters and forgiving each other, and and daughters forgiving their mothers, about wrongs and the other way around. It's it's the most beautiful thing just to like, not care, I don't like.

I don't hold it against I truly don't hold it against them. And it takes a long time to get to that. It took me so long to get to that place because for a while I even wrote a terrible solo show about this. I did try to write this in some sort. It wasn't great. Was a reflection where it was too soon and it was just there were no jokes. It was not it wasn't it was it was part of a comedy solo show festival and it was just no jokes, devoid of jokes. But I

would say there could have been more jokes. The hilarity would say it was still hilarious even though you had no joke. Still trusted me on stage I and so yeah, I mean at that point I hadn't forgiven them. And now it's like, oh, I read the door Luck Club and the audience can tell you know what I mean, The audience can tell when you've forgiven and they don't. It doesn't they're not they're uncomfortable. When uncomfortable, it's chili,

they're chilled. Um, Tammy, I have to ask you before before you move on, I don't think and then I have to I have to have to ask you as well. Okay, I just I really want to know. So I just really want to know, Tammy, Um, what is like like say, you're uh, just writer, creator of your own show? What is that? Because I'm so curious to know this just having this such a diverse, granularly diverse sort of resume and not to like bring that back up, but like I am so curious to know, like what, like the

Tammy Sager sort of yes, I don't know. And it's actually been like a real like sticking point. And I recently and I'll talk to you guys about this off pod because you're connected to it funnily enough. But like when I feel like I have no ideas, it is such a dark, dark feeling. But like right now, I just don't care about my story, do you know what I mean? And it's also just like I don't. I

I just don't. I just don't. I just it's that time where I'm like I care about some other people's stories, and so I just I've been listening to something I'm like, oh, I think this is a show, but I don't know what my show is. I don't I'm not even necessarily asking, like what is the Tammy Sacre? No, No, I know what you mean. But even this where I'm like, this is a show that I feel like I could run with these and I'm inspired by these people, but like

I don't even know. That's fine, that's that's it's okay. I mean, I yeah, I thought like during this break from from S and Al that I would have all these ideas and I would work on all this stuff and like whatever, like I have all these premises thought out, but like I didn't even feel compelled to, like pependo paper. Sometimes think the scary thing about like the past, like

maybe even not year, like past like eight months. For me, it's just like I've always every year just always spit out so much creative stuff, like you know, like and like I'm always creating, and this year and this kind of like last eight months, I think because I have a lot of stuff personally going on. It's just so much going on up here, and I think that's why I need a therapist. I haven't created as much and

that's got me in such like a funk. You need you need to feel the well yeah, and also start beating yourself up for like what your first saved production is. It's also like, as somebody who listens, I'm like, you're producing all the time. Well, that's another. The other thing. It's just like like we signed around the table a lot our acid trip and they're like, everyone, say one good thing that you're proud of over the past year.

And they all went around and it was coming to me and I was like, oh my god, I have nothing to say. I don't know what to say. But it's not I have nothing to say and I'm started. I was like, I was like, oh no. And then and then literally as I was there, I was like, wait, hold on a second, like this is classic and me

like killing myself for no reason. But that's also why it's great that you're with people who love you, who know you could be like this and also this and also this it was an important Um yeah, it's just like something shout out to everyone. As much as I can go easy on yourself, y'all, we're all trying our best and two drugs and oh my god, I would never another thing. Is like I also really don't think

that's like, I'm feel weird about saying this. I was just like, because we're so honest on this podcast, something like when when is too honest? Too honest? Um? But I'm like, you don't need to dr dugs to get their people, don't. Yeah? Oh no, And I fully, I don't you know what I mean? Like and actually like me getting high shut me down so hard that I think there's also something to that. Yeah. So no, I just think there's no blanket thing for anybody. It's very true. Well,

what's your have to ask? Oh, here's what I have to ask. What was Katherine Heigl like? Oh my god, okay, So I wanted to tell you this, that this, and also the oh I have two things to tell you that and also about Tyra Banks. Um, Katherine Heigel was a fucking delight and that she was loved on set like whatever. I was there for a matter of hours, but like jud loved her like she was a delay. I this is the first time I had filmed every anything, So I fully yelled my lines because they were in

the other room. So I was like, it's fine, just like she was like I felt like she was whispering to me. And then I was like fully projecting so they could hear me, and then jud like, man, he's just like just a little smaller, just a little smaller. And I was like, oh, he means just like whisper. Just like so then I just like concentrate on talking really quiet like that was reacting as just talking quietly. Oh my god, Alec Weldwin like straight up just whispers.

That's what Tina says to rights, and she's like he just like speaks at a low whisper and a low decimal. And then you're like, oh, but it's all there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like that's part of it too, where you're just like because especially as a life performer, you're like, okay, well I'm selling it, and it's like all those instincts just shut it down and just like trust that your eyes. Yeah, we'll just be as hard because then you're just like

I'm really big and like just big, you know. But then it's like if you just concentrate on talking really quietly, like it all just sort of happened it right, Yeah, you're just like it's weird. I got I got pulled in. I was like, whoa, I know, it's so but it was like if you just told me like to be small or whatever. It'd be like, I can't. But if she's just like just so, she was. She was a delight. She was loved on set. She was loved on set.

She was a delight. And then it was such a bummer when that it came out, because because you just talking about it, because it was also like it wasn't like a few months after it came out. She was like, it was like opening weekend. She was like, it was a bummer and all this. I was like, oh, dude, I mean, here's what I think. I think she could I think a bunch of things could have happened. She could have waited to maybe express that particular opinion, even

if it was justified. I think everyone could have maybe read that whole article because there is context. And I'm so not with you on this. I think that I think that Judd and Seth were way too harsh on her. They were not though at the time, at the time they really handled it graciously. Remember about it. I think that I feel like people asked them about it, but

also consider how much fucking work that they did. Like when you're directing and writing a movie and like somebo he was fully acted in like one and a half things, but like it's so much easier, do you know what I mean? And it's like she got to come in and be a star of a movie that the other star was like hustling and writing and all this work when the director is doing and he's also like throwing all this stuff out and then in editing for a

million months it was their baby. She they have done so much water work and then she gets to be a fucking movie star off and and she wanted emmy basically for that movie. She went for that season of grays Anatomy. I'll tell you she work because the buzz had had been, the buzz had hit, and it was time to rework. She benefited from that movie in huge way. And then the thing, like the thing that really sells me of like, dude, this is on Catherine, not on them at all, is what she did to the writers

of grades. You're right, that was very That was trash. It was trash. It was trash. But I'll say this, but were you the one who were like, I love that she took herself out of consideration? Well, I thought she was being I thought I thought she was doing what because when I was that was like, you don't have to a Nancy, you just do it, Just do it.

You know, some people do do this where if they win the next season, they will remove themselves for from consideration of unceremonious especially on a show life for His Anatomy, where there's many other actresses that are deserving of and

often that very same award. And so I thought to myself when it was announced that she was removing herself from consideration, I think she's being fine to Sandro and Shandra Wilson, who and at the time Kate Walsh, who really could have won that award and she could have come on that angle, she could have totally been absolutely to be nasty, had to be nasty. And you can tell that was when I was like, oh maybe now the knocked up thing does seem And also like who

is she being nasty too? Do you know what I mean? Because like also when she's who bust the us to write for her? Which sucks? Yeah, who bust her? Has like sixties a week when she's working what three days a week? And like I know the multi you know, the single cam life is hard. Writer's life is longer hours and you're not getting in you think for free, and you're not getting your photo taken and all that, and like to do that to them after they got you an Emmy. It's just so crazy. I did wasn't

given the material to warrant denomination. And also it's like on a show like that where they're trying to write for like twelve cast members. Yeah, and all the things that they must have done, And like how much did she get from getting that? I mean, you know what, I mean, all the free stuff she's getting, all the more money she's getting, all of that. But yeah, no, she's nobody's been her bigger enemy than herself. Yeah, this

is why you need someone an insider like Tammy. That's why I wanted to ask the question, because I did, like, honestly, it's this thing that has followed her for so long. And I do think there is a sexist element to it, because I do think that men have done way worse and literally been nominated for Best Director at the Oscars

after their indiscretions. But I will say it's hard for me though, because I'm just like, I don't want a female asshole to get away with it, just as got away with I think you're right, and I think assholes just shouldn't get away with it. I think I think if she is indeed confirmed an asshole, which you know, the things that she said are asshole ish. I mean she also does like nicing. She she organizes planes for like Chihuahua's you know what I mean, Like people contain multitudes,

I think she contains. But I just as a writer, I would never want to write for her because I just feel like he was the asshole jumped out, and it jumps out after a year of work. If you jump out at the beginning, asshole jumped out the asshole. It wasn't jump out. It wasn't it. It wasn't a slow crawl. No, when we do we do a where

that comes from? Right when when people say the so and so jumped out, that comes from on charm school saying to Pumpkin, Pumpkin, she said, your behavior this evening was horror like the horror jumped out and then you jump back in, but jumped out the horror jumped out. I mean true, really, that is this is what reality TV is made for, and the fact that it has had that lasting impact. Hue, I can't believe Monique won an Oscar for pressure so and not that moment, an

oscar for the one reality show. Okay, time for I don't think so, honey. I really struggled with my I don't think so honey. I'm so much self hate went into it now because I'm telling you've listened to hundreds of them within like a matter of months, and then fully left it until but this morning. All the time, mine is barely written. So let's let's first. You should go first. I have something very Mine is potentially very dumb. Okay, we're gonna go, is Matt Rodgers. I don't think so

many's time starts now. I don't think so, honey. When people say, hey, it's me, no bitch, you better say your name. If it's the nineties, which is when a lot of people did this, Hey it's me. I just picked out the phone when I had your voice memorize oftentimes the hey it's mears. I don't think so, honey, then, because I don't know you. I don't know you. If I do, you can just say, hey, hey it's me. Who's me? Especially Hey it's me nowadays? Yeah, bitch, I

know who you are. I have a cell phone that says your name on it. I don't need to hear Hey it's me. Just start the conversation. Everyone's name is very valuable. Hey it's me. No, you have a name that your mother gave you, and your mother and your father and whoever whomever named you. Spend a long time. Hey Tammy, it's Matt, and that is respectful to my parents. Hey it's me. Hey it's me. Also, I don't like

the cadence of it, Hey it's me. Like it's just like, okay, this is too familiar, especially if maybe if we just got off the phone and then I got disconnected and then you come back, then hey it's me. Otherwise I don't think so. And that's one minute, so masterfull down to the second. Would you ever call me and then say hey, it's me and I'd be like hey, and I just get right and you get right into it. But the next why you're worth it? So this is

this is an interesting thing. So for people you do know, who you are familiar with, you would rather they just cut to the chase. But for people you don't know you, they have to introduce themselves to you. Yes, interesting, nothing in between. Hey it's me. Hey, it's me is the in between it, and you don't want that liminal space anywhere. It's here's where, here's where, Hey, it's me rears its

head the most in voicemails. Sure, it's like I know, hey, it's me, but here's that I know nowadays and then hey, it's me back in the day when you didn't necessarily know what. I don't always have people's I'm such a procrastinator that I don't always put people's phone numbers in even like it takes one second, So I sometimes just have a phone number. Well, and that's why, that's why

you need to tell yeah, don't don't, just don't. Hey it's me is never okay, never, okay, absolutely, thank you, Matt. That was that was inspired. Okay, Um, I have one very loose, all right, it's very loose, very loose, the Bowen Yang story, and it's time starts now, I don't think so, honey. Getting motherfucking stamps in New York City. I was trying to mail in my absentee ballot for Colorado Sweetie yesterday, and it took me seven different locations

to finally pick up a sheet of stamps. Here's here's the roundown the post office on Atlantic Avenue, right by my apartment. The line was agreed. Just I said, no, I don't have the time for this. Went to three different bodegos. They all said no, we don't. Went to three different chain of pharmacies. Your CBS is your Dwayne reads, your wall queens. None of them had stamps. And yet the the USPS website said falsely claims that they do.

And yeah, and I was allied to by the Internet, which I mean nowadays at hack when the Internet lies to you, and two on the nose. So finally I go into Manhanan go to the post office on Varick and thank goodness, the lovely gentleman there gave me a sheet of stamps. And this is not um. The Postal Services wonderful. They were the first line of defense for all these explosives that went out to all these democratic leaders. And that's one moment. Oh God, so there you go.

So I love it. I love a fifty five second negative. I don't think a second, but thank you. Hear to my heroes, the Postal Service. But else the post office they usually like a vending machine stand in New York City. I saw, I saw nary a vending machine in these

post offices. But what can we say, Tammy? So I wrote something not psyched about it felt like I never thought it went no stop that I know what's going to be Brilliant's gonna No, it's not it tried too hard, no, no, whatever, whatever times whenever people say whatever, never read enough moment when we always want more. I don't think some honey is a low ceiling high floor for success. This is

this is Tammy Sagers. I don't think so honey kind of starts now, I don't think so honey me ending up in the shittiest of all timelines, where the Cubs one was the first time a simulator getting lazy flipping some switches it never should have been flipped. Feeling the outer edges of the Truman Show glitches just in the names of who we are dealing with, like the Republican

senators willing to once in a while stand up. His name is Jeff Flake up, seriously Flake and he's not even gonna bother running again, and flakes Ivana and ivunk cup okay, and the feeling like there are no repercussions for any misbehavior except for the arbitrary swats of the universe, fly swatter that somehow managed to splatter al Franken's body against the walls of the US Senate. Phil Clinton is still doing a book tour. No one that cares, and

nobody blinks. And I when number forty five doesn't decry the murder of a Saudi journalist, but instead that was the worst cover up ever, And you can feel his outrageous. If only had been a better cover up, he could have looked the other way. He would have screamed fake news, which honestly, remember when that was the problem Hillary was facing for the election. It's like a rapist taking the mantle of victim, put from the rape to no. Yeah,

that's exactly what happened. And I don't think so, honey, When we're accepting Supreme Court justice saying he was a virgin for years, when the allegation was not penetration but almost choking arc as he left, they have fumbled and trying his stuff is drunk and privileged, young rape dick and failed. She's seen as a victim. And I don't

think so, honey. I don't think so, honey. And four change seconds and every second was essential that was and can I tell you something that was the most words permitted of any I don't think so, honey, And that puts you in the Guinness Book of World Record and the most holistic all covered everything that was that is happening every ill insisting. I don't think so, honey. We need for today. But I'm also like, what is happening in my other timeline? Oh? In your other timeline? Do

you think it's much more positive? Yeah? But I also feel like I'm doing a better job of things, do you know what I mean? In the other timeline. Yeah? I feel like my other timeline me is just like a lot healthier. Yeah. You just just like making harder choices that are ultimately better, do you know what I mean? But nothing I do, nothing's preventing you from from doing that, now, you know, except my laziness stuff. That's what it is. Oh my goodness, this is Sadie Cohen. This is Sadie Cohen.

I can't believe we had Sadie Cohen on the show Second Boom, Chicago, Second City Legend. Sadie Cohen and writer for Every Perfect Television show, Tammy Segrete. This is this was so great and I'm this like truly like I had. I was so excited for this episode and just tears were totally absolutely thanks you guys. UM, please watch Oranges the New Black UM this upcoming season, final season. UM, and we loved Tammy so much with the song wh Stars of a Thousand Spotlights all the song Shine of

the Last Guy. We'll never be enough, never been enough, never never got. This has been a Forever Dog production executive produced by Brett Bohum, Joe Silio, and Alex Ramsey. For more original podcasts, please visit Forever Dog Podcasts dot com and subscribe to our shows on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Keep up with the latest Forever Dog news by following us on Twitter and Instagram at Forever Dog Team, and liking our page on Facebook