"Maggots or Magic" (w/ Betty Gilpin)

came back off the plane. And I, by the way, it was a lot for me to come right from the plane to my friends because it was late at night and I was drenched in a sweat. You're embellishing biomission. You're you're leaving out the fact that you went home first. And then that was a harrowing because I had three bags. It was harrowing. You walked into a new toilet. Okay, So this is what happened, listeners. So here's the deal

with my apartment in green Point. It has a roof in the bathroom or the ceiling in the bathroom will constantly cave in, and I don't know what to do or say about it because I tell my landlords and they fix it. I'm doing air quotes, reader, and then I come back, and it will have caved in once again. And by caved in, I mean like it leaks. And so I get back. I've been in Los Angeles for about five months. I get back to my apartment. It

is sweltering hot. I'm already devastated, since you know, in Los Angeles is very dry, very try, very dry, big difference. So then I walk into my bathroom. It is so, so, so hot, and clearly the ceiling has caved through, and they fixed it again. What they didn't fix was the entire floor in my bathroom was covered in what I can only describe as like liquid garbage, and the bath the toilet bowl itself was filled. And so then I went over to studies and saw you. And you're attacking

me for not coming to see your place. But you've been very busy too. I have been busy. I want to come over. We'll do it to now, but you're going to some show. I'm gonna go do a show at the Bellhouse, but I'm gonna come out. I'm gonna come them over your energy. I would you attack, I'm giving none. You have the cooler attack. You have the attack. You have the instinct of a cougar. I I just I'm feeling very your feel disconnected now. I feel so overwhelmed. I want to say so much. We have so much

we haven't talked about. I want to say, first of all, I just want to say, it is so crazy that we have our guests so that we're going to get to it in just minutes. But I have been, didn't We have been in a state of anxiety and in a positive anxiety. But you and I would have these like like like we had like an hour long conversation one like in like way back like season one of slowly about our guests. Were just like, oh my god, So can I tell you something that first? First? I well,

let me get to this. But first I want to say one thing. No, I want to discuss it with the guests. So never mind. Okay, when you say our guests name and a group of gay men, everything stopped. Everything stopped, The water runs dry, you know, you know, it becomes like the moon and the side can't figure out who should be in the sky, and I can I can I out this really mean game that you l a gays play? You l a gays, you l a gays. I was there in January, and then we

went out one night and this is March. We went out one night and all these l A gays were playing this game called star or good actress? Is that what it is? What you say actress? Are starting? So one of these was an example because our guest will so. Then so some some like some gay man in a circle will say an actress's name, and Sandra Bolock in the last five I was gonna say Amy Adams because

this was like a really really divisive, polarizing bork. People were like some people were like, she's she's a good actress, She's not a star, And then I was ridiculous, both I think she's both. I think Amy is brilliant and both. But this is just a anyway, this is just to illustrated the catty discourse that we that we apply to all these women. First of all, I say, I literally this is a round about way of saying, if you were to say the name of our guests, you would

say actress and star. Can I say something about okay, so this it's it's my favorite performance on television is Betty Open and Glow. So I can the scene that I keep watching. But this you say, you say the scene after I say this, it's the fact it's and I don't say this lightly. It's streep Ian to be so to be access like bigness and like theatrical nous and also delivered the small And that's why I love Glow. It's like and it's unlike any other show on television

because it's so interior. But it's also like the whole point is how exterior that makes sense. I absolutely I said the word streep and she's gotta go, but I it. I actually said to Louis Fortell, I was like, don't you get street vibes? And he said, yes, absolutely, and you're worshiped and you and and it's deservedly so. And we had to get that out of the way because now we can have a normal conversation. Have a normal conversation. I just have to say hospital scene, yes you have.

And before I watched it, you had been saying and I and I told you. I was like, you got to watch out for this hospital scene. It was so good. And the breaking point, I'm not going to do the I'm not going to do the reading. Don't ever do that. It's actually really culture number ten. Don't ever do the reading. Now I and I just and I'll do it by myself in my apartment, just to practice, please, just to practice the placement of focus. Just She's just we are

gagging right now. Oh my god, it's the most were we are gagging for gagging for her. So everyone, please, no, I want to say one more thing because now I have my favorite yeah, the scream of grief in episode four when like, okay, so episode four of seasons two, there is a moment where her daughter on quote Untie gets taken and and she just the screams of pure grief, like the performed grief. I can't it's just so good. And this must be kind of irritating. It's not irritating,

I don't think, because we love her so much. So please welcome into your ears, Patty gilber Ship. I'm I'm actually shaking. My heart is pound. Come on, I am a huge fan and my words, hyperbolic world where we all have to give each other compliments. We don't mean, it's all over the top. Then you look in the mirror at the end of the day and you're like, what did I just say to people around? And I I have I found you guys A couple months ago and at a time where it's been like a year

of basically like loneliness and hotel rooms. Yeah, some darkness but also like fun but like being away from like my people and really missing them and stump pulling upon you guys and just like rising in joy. I mean, I now can't listen to you on planes because I'll be escorted off the plane. It's it's biblical what I feel for you. It's crazy. My heart was pounding in the car over here. I've been waiting for that. That is so unbelievable. Well, first of all, thank you for

saying that. But we are like, I mean, you are truly like you when we we even said, we were like, where the funk? Has this person been? Like first season of Glow? Like crying in my apartment. It's been a decade, but you've been out there. You've been out there, but like this is like such a great showcase, like and I feel like it's it's our first time meeting you, so I have to We're just really like piling it on. But thank you and listener. If you're out there and

don't agree, I'm with yours. Imagine watching this show and not being like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know about Betty season three, August nine. I guess Netflix, okay. And also Gina Davis is crazy. It has to be crazy. It was insane. And we first met her, like Ali, Brie and I were in full Liberty Bell and Zoya and we were walking outside in the parking lot and our shadows like the sun was behind us casting these

crazy shadows of our crazy silhouettes. My hair is like, you know, insane, and incomes this car in the parking lot. We were like, I don't know how I know this, but that's Gina. Like our shadows are like thirty ft long. She drives up to us and like we all just start she rolls down the window. She's just like starts laughing, and I was like, burst into tears. She's been like

one of your man's for a long time. Absolutely, yes, I think Actress and Star Star and you know, you know I will say this after Star can you imagine wait? After sent Star and also A League of their own, one of the most underrated films I think should have been nominated for Best Pictures. Yeah, like that is such honestly a sort of pre glow glow. Yes in many ways.

I mean I feel like they're She's one of those people where you look back at some female performances where you're like, okay, star, and then you go back and watch it you're like, act like your feet are one thousand feet deep into the earth. Yeah. And also there's I'm now I'm really remembering. It's like she's so strong

that whole movie. And then when her husband comes back at the spoiler alert for a League of their own right now, but when her husband comes back and there's that break, and it's just you realize how much tension she's had the whole time. It's like that's work, Yes, you know what I mean. Yeah, and Madonna and and Rosy and fun performance. Really, I was a huge Rosie

Show fan. Yeah, went to a taping you did. Yes, Did you ever remember when those people they would throw to those people and they'd be like, ah, yeah, I'm so and so from yeah that No, but we all got Jerry McGuire VHS is under our seats because of her huge crush on God imagine being imagine like writing writing the nineties. It's like you're at the Rosie Show and you get Jerry McGuire on VHS right the nineties.

Oh that's funny because Jerry McGuire was kind of the first movie I saw as a kid that I was like, I'm watching Tom Cruise in Who is Itson? Have sex? And for some reason, I'm only interested in looking at Tom wow turning point. So for me that was like an imprinting of like, oh I'm gay, But for Rosie was like, I'm taking cover behind this in the closet. That's interesting. That was the movie that that was the first movie that Bowen's parents took him to that was

R rated. You told me this, No that's not true. Yes you did. You said that was an AL rated film. They didn't take me. They rented it from Blockbus. Oh well, then it was the first one that you watched with your parents. That was a yeah, and the next one was scary movie. Anyway, this isn't this isn't interesting. Oh my god, everything you say and that literally I I gotta like just take it down. I had to. I

was like rehearsing in my head earth. I mean, like like the question, I was like, what answering music question. I was like no, no, no no, we can't sound, we can't sound rehearse you no no, no, And in my in my research on you today and yesterday, I was like, wow, she could say so many things because you have quite the hiss and then you're time at personal history that Oh, I just want to say, shout out to my friend

Gus Hicky, who you went to high school. We went to high school and yep, we did a production of Wonderful Town together. I loved him so much. He was in my brother's class. I feel like I was a scene you when he was a freshman. Yeah, yeah, okay,

So we were hanging out. We went to oil Can Harry's and l a shout out oil Can Harry's and I remember before we went I I was talking to him and he was I mentioned that you were going to come on the show, because this when we received word that you were coming on, and I was so excited. He's like, I went to high school with her. We

were in the musical together. I was like, she's things, he goes, she she I'm bored with the narrative of an actress being like, I don't sing, and then a second later being like, I don't like I have a coffee shop voice. I would so much rather hear a mezzanine voice that the week. So you're saying it's a voice that is at this table, we're all going to

be entranced and enchanted. No, I'm saying that I could give you like a pitchy moon River on my own time, but I couldn't give you eight shows a week like a pop belt like Oklahoma last night you haven't seen, Oh my god, is it stunning? Well, first of all, my high school ex boyfriend from when I was fifteen is the lead. His voice is so crazy. My boyfriend from high school, yeah plays what's his face curly? Yeah?

Oh my god. Yeah, and it's he had a voice in high school, but it's turned into I mean, it's the sexiest ghost you've ever heard. It's crazy. I just feel like only people who are really good, like you have a fucking stuff and control and your ear is crazy like it's I just I'm not interested in like ukulele for note range and that's what I'm well, you know what though, here's the thing though, Like, well, first of all, I want to ask, how was Ali Stroker?

Oh my god, amazing, amazing. So we went to we knew her in college. We didn't do we know her? I know, well she was she was play rights and yeah, and so she would be like the parties that we go to and she was always like the you would just gravitate towards. Yeah, she's a star and she was a star even in college and like with the craziest voice and yeah, yeah, well because we comedy festival, okay, we were into ny U. We went to the what

do you call it? The uh oh, the real State Firm n U. Yeah, I like celebrity daycare, every daycare. And the other one, the third one in the pattern is multi Complex Headshot Studio Multi something. Anyway, Ali was, yeah, Ali, I cannot wait to see it because I heard it's amazing. It was a real I mean, I too have been away from New York for a long time. It's been almost a full year away, um, and I grew up here and live here and I love it so much

and whatever have my struggles. But like it was the first night, like New York night back, and I met up with my best friend, writer Doyle, Yes a secret sorry writer. He's hiding amongst He's everywhere. I'll get his Instagram and I'm like, where are you? You know, he's all over the map. Yeah. Um, but like going to

Oklahoma and just from lights up sobbing. Like I just I've been feeling like, I don't know, there are so many aspects in this sucking business, and I've definitely been I feel like away from I think that's why I found your podcast at the exact right time. I've just felt a little far away from you know how in Los Angeles you can find yourself like around a sect of humanity that's like you're like, oh you, it's not bad that you got into this for different reasons than

and it's not bad. And I used to be kind of elitist and judgmental about it, but that is my

thing and not there. Um, but it I feel like sometimes it's just there's like crashing reminders of why you love this, and I feel like that was I don't know right no, Because there's like when you when when you're watching theater, I think like it would be really hard to fake that you love it, but when you're watching a group of people who really love what they're doing, you feel that, and like special theater productions like that, Like that's kind of like the Jimmy's the other night

when I was there, I was, what I love about this is that there are like sixty kids on stage right now who are so excited and they love what they do so much, and they are they know this is such a moment and this the purpose with which they walked on the stage, and the when they announced the finalists, like how excited they were for each other and like and just then watching them come out and like take center and just do that and like they

all were so good. And it's just that I think goes a little bit away and I to stuff like I'm like fifty the industry right right, and so that is I was when I was reading today you had a quote that said, you know, you did the theater to like feed your soul and then you did like your little gigs to you know, pay for your rent and stuff like that. It's like, is it hard to find like joy and those things that are like Okay, we're gonna cut now, we're gonna take a lunch for

six hours, etcetera. Yeah, I mean, I guess the thing that I'm feeling these days is like it's I feel like the stages are like, Okay, you find your people and find what you want to do, and then there's this chunk of time where you do it just with and for your people and be like, God, isn't this gonna be so amazing when it goes out into the next stratosphere and into the world that I can't wait until that happens for us. And then when it happens,

you're kind of like, this is amazing. But oh, now, like everyone that used to be receiving this were my friends and received it like with such care and attention, like uh and new me. And you know, it can feel like you're writing this a little like scroll of like here's who I am and sending it out to the world. When your friends are receiving it, they're like, got it, No, exactly what that? Yes, I see you

exactly for who you are. And when it gets to a different plane of like, okay, now I'm sending it out to a bigger chunk of the world, Like there's a chunk of the world that's like I'm bored, or like, oh this is what it is. You're like, Oh no, that's not that's not what the school says. Wait wait, wait, you're getting it wrong. Um, and uh what is this? You know what you're saying is so dead on, and

it's it's what I'm thinking right now. Like sometimes we get just like the right guess at the right exact time because something that is something that like I could get, I could cry because something that like I feel like is going on right now is like you have your having like your so much success and like like it's starting to like I'm starting to work a little bit more.

And it's like we live on different coasts now a lot of a lot of the time, and it's like when we started doing this, it was like truly so that we could like do ninety minutes together just to

play together. And you know, as things change a little bit over time, like um, like that you you have to work to make those things still feel right there, you know what I mean, Because it's the greatest gift and the greatest curse to do or to be sending out that thing that you've been dreaming of sending out, because sometimes it feels like soul church, and sometimes it feels like you're stage momm ng a part of yourself

that doesn't want to be there anyhow. And I feel like the the benefit of doing stuff not for the world is like what I'm feeling right now. Is like when I feel like a a scene is going well, it's like the one time in my fucking crazy ask brain where there's no checkpoints of people being like who woa whoa Is that the right choice? Who? Whoa? Whoa?

That's too big? Well, that's too weird. Like if a scene is going well, it's a perfect clear highway from my brain out my mouth and knowing that there's a result or people who may not necessarily get me or not like me, or like when I think about the comments section or whatever, then there's like ten new checkpoints and it makes the work shitty and it's I don't know, I needed to come back to New York. It's a complication that comes up when people can receive what you're

doing right ten you checkpoints. Let's just say, yeah, you see the comments section. It's ten you checkpoints that are like permanently posted up in your in your brain at this point. Or no, they just it just takes a while for them to like go away. It takes a way to kill them, or like a while to kill I mean, like it could take five minutes or it could take a little while, but like it's no that's

so interesting. I mean I want to ask you, like, what is your ideally calibrated ratio of like, well, not ratio, but like your distribution of Like let's say there's no checkpoints, what's your ideally calibrated ratio distribution of I don't even to break it down. And I was going to ask a really basic question of like TV or stage and you know, but like like what like what is like right now Betty Guelpin, what it's June five? Like what like what like what do you what's your ideal sort

of platonic, ideal place for your career? I mean, I guess I'm this sounds so gross. I'm right now at a point where I I'm in a charted territory where I'm like a little nervous about I'm a big person, Like out loud, I'll be like I only want this, and I've definitely gotten past that point because I I out loud was like, you know, if I'm on one episode of a multicam and can help take out the recycling at a casting office, like secretly being like I have dreams and like so I'm I guess I'm I'm

just feeling like Okay, this is a tangent. My mom had a sister with Down syndrome UM, and she loved the Museum of Natural History but was terrified of the big dinosaur skeleton and the lobby UM, but loved the rest of the museum. And that's how I'm feeling about lesbiansiness. Like so they would they and her family would put an overcoat over her head and like stiff arm run her through the lobby to get to the rest of

the museum. And I'm like, Okay, there are parts of this business that I feel are actually like hurting me and eating my brains for real, Like I feel it happening. I see, I see it happen. Where success can make you dumber, sadder, not like yourself also or like yourself a lot in a way that's gross. You stop listening like all the things that I think, like make a good actor or a good person. And I'm like, okay, Betty,

what you need to like figure out what parts? You just need to put a coat over your head and run through it and not look or listen. Um, I mean what literally whatever is uh? Like I don't know,

happy and healthy? Because you know what, because it's like your mother's sister at Mary, but like there's like some things are not like exposure therapy necessarily you don't gain anything out of like confronting it or just like being at its presence for like a long lifetime, like you truly don't get anything out of Like your mom's sister wouldn't have like overcome her fear of the dinosaur right just actually looked at it. It's like no, like sometimes

you just know those things are scary. Sometimes you just get get out of get yourself out of that space. I don't know, but it's also hard for me, And I wonder if this for you me fake knowing you guys through listening to all your podcast episodes because we're out of here. For me, hard to navigate, Um, what come in my life and especially career wise, like what comes from shame and what comes from Oh, I just don't want to do that part like uh, like um,

like having a public Instagram. I don't have a public Instagram, And I'm like, Okay, are you hiding or are you just not wanting to do that? Is it like ten year old terrified Betty or is it like sixteen year

old with a camel lighting around me? Like I'm not thinking to do no, But that's something that I think about all the time, is like, why do I put so much effort into the instagram what I mean for comedian For comedians it's different, but it's it's sort of that same thing where it's like, well, to be totally honest, like, I don't think either of us ever thought, well, we'll be out here as a personality, Like I never thought everyone wouldn't like I kind of why when I was young,

I had like those kind of dreams of like I'll be an actor, like that's what I wanted to do and still want to do. I mean, I don't think those things are super interchangeable now, but it is that thing of like the comments section can be rough, and then I think the monster are not monster the dinosaur and the lobby for me is probably like feeling like people are going to decide they hate me before they know what I can do, because we've decided to kind

of come at it from a personality standpoint. So I think the fact that you don't have like a public Instagram or like like out there just kind of like headlines headlines. It's probably it's fine because at the end of the day. It's like that just shows like you care about the work so much and you put so much into the work, and it shows and you're right that that stuff can get in the way of creating

good material. I mean, it really can, or just I mean, I feel like it's prevalent in a certain city that you and I am that it's that I watch people's brains just leave, just go, because I do also think that also, Yes, the part where you're just creating work with just you and your friends is so fun, but it's also painful. You feel invisible and like you're like why is that person being seen by the world and that or whatever. That's a bitter way to look at it.

But there's so many times, Yeah, there's so many times where you just feel so small and so like, oh man, this is like trotting my soul out and putting tap shoes on, or like this is this hurts today because no one wants it. And then when it's accepted, that validation hit is. So you're like, okay, if whatever it takes to continue this feeling. And I think, like something that I love about theater and that I love about

your guys, this podcast is like it's a constant. One foot is in the river of like maybe this is all a joke, Like life is a joke. Look under the carpet there's maggots. Isn't that hilarious? And then another foot in the river of I believe in magic, Like this world so beautiful, let's sing like this is you know, there's a magic circus underbelly to everything, and there's maggots under there. But look, they're sparkles under here. And I feel like those are both involved risk and being like

alter whatever, and I think it's so easy to realize. Oh, validation feels so good. I'm going to move away from the alt weird stuff and just into this like center circle being of like not listening and having vocal frying my jokes not being funny anymore. Yeah, this sort of idea of like, um, nothing matters, it's all fake, so let's have fun, right. It exists a lot less in Los Angeles. There is a lot more cynicism there because you like, it's a little darker, you know what I mean.

As lovely as it isn't, as much as I love being there, it is a little darker. And I think it's because everyone is very close to an industry that

is like famously tough. It's like they kind of some It's almost like there's like a pleasure in the pain, you know what I mean, where it's like I feel lucky because we have had a community to like sort of develop in and it has luckily been like a loving community where and this is so bizarre to even say now, but I do kind of like I think that the rise of this sort of like joy and comedy at least, and we are our experience and drag

sort of come together. Like I didn't understand this whole sort of thing of like everything's fake until I heard RuPaul say everything's fake, right. I was like, wait, oh my god, Yes, that's what drag is. It's what I'm doing, You're doing, You're doing. It's like we're all kind of pretending to be these things. And sometimes I think that can it's interesting to see that idea becomes so mainstream and so beloved because it directly um sort of conflicts

with this industry, you know what I mean. I mean, I think it's why the camp theme at the met Ball was so they still miss the market. They couldn't say this is all a joke, because it's if if we're saying it's all a joke, then that's their bible. The met ball is the thing, and you can't be like this doesn't matter. And you also can't be like and it's magic, because magic is too vulnerable and big

of a choice. It's this tautologically flawed thing where it's like the met balls, people taking themselves seriously in camp is about celebrating bad taste and not you know, not taking yourself right. But Betty's describing with like maggots or magic.

It's like that's like not to be all like Brinie like Brinie Brown and ship, but like that that's like full Like that's I think that is like the definition of vulnerability, of just not knowing what the outcome of something will be, like every day being like a Schrodinger's kind of like either the cat's alive or the cat's

debt in this box, I don't know. I'm coming into the situation not knowing, right, And like that's kind of what's like missing from maybe this other city where people are just like thinking they can hack the system to be like, well, I know what, I know that the cats dead and so I'm gonna bitch about the capping dead. It's just it does like a sense of humor is a little bit different there. It's like it's fine and

this is not a read. I've just noticed that like sometimes like in in like in interactions I have with people, the sense of humor will be a little bit more not mean, but like it's a little bit more like you know what I mean, it's a little bit there's a little bit more ship talks, which is like, you know, like I lightly participated in every now and then we're all fun, but it's like it's like it's it's just I don't do you I don't experience it here that

did you did you want? Did you watch Nicole Silverbriog's video on Twitter? The video which jokes jokes and every movie are these and then it's just like super kind of herd just like talking to the camera and it's just jokes that are like let's go shopping. Yeah, no, I get to say that. You don't get to say that. I get to say that, or that. It's it's like these non jokes that are like, um, don't bring up the hair. It's a high and it's like all these

like kind of pseudo. It's not they're not actual joke, but it's like that's like what, that's what some people's idea of. No, that's okay. Another reason that I clung to your podcast was I feel like I was in that world so hard of this. There's this thing. This is the first time in my lifehere I've had to do press for stuff, and it is a world of people treating not funny people like they're comedians. Say something

like sorry, I'm sorry. I was like it was raining outside, I'm soaking wet, and people are like, oh my god, you're rounding. Don't hilarious, Queen. That wasn't Or once I answered the door for hair and makeup in like a sheet mass and I opened the door and it was as if I did fifteen minutes, like like I'm George

car like they were laid down in the hallway. I was like, this is not what yes, And so when I first listened to your products like these a runny people exact, Oh my god, you're gonna here's a question I have when you do go on those late night shows, yeah, are they totally rehearsed beforehand and they like, this is what you talk about then this, then this, I mean not to shadow illusion, but I no, no, no. So I've now done three late night talk shows and the

first to talk about checkpoints. It's like I did Colbert and then Kimmel and um they and then I just recently did Kimmel like last week. UM, and they do they call you a couple of days before producers yeah talking about yeah, and uh you kind of like trot out your story to them and they're like, okay, tell that one, okay, um, And you know I tried to. I also feel like in the theater um setting, they're

so like, you never talked about the result. You never talked about the fact there's going to be an audience. It's very like try try in the room and then you know, see what happens. It's so like quote unquote not result based. And then like the silent like superstitious thing is like and then there's going to be an audience and that kind of thing talk shows or whatever. And I'm sure joke writing it's you have to be

cognizant of the results because whatever. Um. But I tried to for the first to be like la la la la, I don't want to know I'm pretending there's not a segment producer. I'm pretending this isn't planned, and I'm just gonna like go and make it up as I go along. And I did the first two and the third the one I did last week, I was I had the second I sat down, I was like, comments, section, there are people poised over there keyboards. They've already said, look

at her ears. She deserves the death penalty. And it was yes, And it didn't go great, Like it was fine, but I was very nervous and it felt like that feeling of the ten year old me being like, hey, you're stage momming me into this and I don't want to be here anymore. Um. And I told like a story that was like important to me, and I was like, oh, I wish i'd told this is why people tell fake stories,

because you're saving a part of yourself or whatever. So I yeah, it just felt kind of like gross and sad. Well for what it's worth. I mean, I I didn't see your most recent chemical appearance, but I thought you're Colbert and your last chembal appearance I thought. I was like this. I was like, this is like, this is what these interviews used to be and like this is

kind of perfect and anyway. But I think it's so interesting that like the fact that you clocked that you were telling yourself comment section and I'm stage I'm stage momming this that doesn't want to be here, right, that's crazy that you're putting the words this thing that I feel all the time where I'm like, I am just I always know the present, but not right the second

before something happens. I always know, but like it's so funny moment where you go on stage or something like I'm going to kill or I'm going to be awful, and so lately, over the past two years, I think I've been a little bit better at just being like, even if that voice pops up, it's like, well, you know that voice is gonna make you do badly, so defeat it right now and I'll be better about that. But sometimes you do. You're just getting that funking that

is so interesting. I think it's like a performer's instinct where it's like, oh, I know better, but we're here and I'm a human and we're being very human out here. Because there's an element of performance. You can work as hard as you prepare there's it's just there's so much up to chance and just what's in the air or you know, what part of your brain is asleep or await, like if the right parts are asleep in a wake and there's you can't control it. You can do things

to hurt it. But it's I mean, I'm so I'm I'm so terrified that something's going to happen. I'll read the wrong thing, I'll look, I'll meet the wrong where the acting part will just fall out. Has that happened? Well? There was like this American life about a baseball pitcher who was like a World Series pitcher and one day this is a great horrible and he just got so in his head and he couldn't he could He's stop being able to throw the ball to the house for

the rest of his life totally. Can you even know it's going to know any time? This isn't like when you were hurt I have done this, like oh God, like this you know when come on No Judgment how a big audition one and like had rehearsed relentlessly and then you get out there and it's just like you remember how big it is and you can either set it's that fight or flight, and sometimes you just pick that second thing. And it's sometimes I think it just

because that wasn't meant to be a thing. But you'll always leave, especially audition experiences, you know what I mean, because that is a high stakes thing. Are you auditioner? No? Um? I now just I try to self tape whenever I can, and I tape my iPhone to my window and tape the sides next to the iPhone and record my own voice with the other lines. Yes, and that's you've been called on it. Like what it's the only time I've booked off tape because I when someone else is there,

I'm like, we can be done. That's fine. Yes, this is this is the way to audition. You will book constantly a because the window. Tape your phone to the window, the sun blows out all the years of hard living for those of us need it. And you literally tape your sides here next to the phone and read them. It looks like you are a hundred percent off. You can't see the eyes reading. It's crazy. I've done like monologues Webbon and then you just change your eyeline to

this page. I mean, it's it's that is huge to know because honestly, I'm always like freaked out because I can never get anyone to come over, like right, we always usually do it together. But I would put you guys on tape and I love it. But I would be like the person to be like, Okay, well we can just do too, and you know, I would just I do just kind of get crazy when there's an audience. When there's an audience of just one, it's just me. You're we're always yeah, but you give me like really

good feedback. And for some reason, and this is bad. This is just a bad confession for some reason, Like I sometimes I fear it that I'm like, God, I'm really fucking up in Matt is watching me. Each it's me. It's exactly my good best friend. One I will say this, I actually do better, Like one time Studio and Boe put me on tape and I actually felt like I did better because I was performing instead of doing this in front of one person, like I prefer an audience

to just one person. I just actually suit. You just put me on same something when we were in Nantucket and it was literally me Suit. You get like an award for SNL and Nantucket and so were they put us. They put her up in this like nice thing, and I was like, just like doing my tape in this like LuxS atmosphere. I felt like they were going to watch it and be like, where the funk is he? You'll probably book it like he's in the atmosphere. Him. Wow,

that was great. He booked a lux atmosphere for the tape. I've got to try the sides to the window. I will too, It'll change everything. And also don't have to bother anyone totally. Although my old managers made me buy like the phone and tripod, which I don't mind. That's that I need to do that, But the amount of pain it takes to scotch shape my iPhone to a window, it's why have I Yeah, you've set this thing on not to cool your own interviews back because it's kind

of like iron. But I mean, this thing that stuck with me is that you were it was the Sam Jones on Camera show, and it was but you guys were talking about auditioning and then and specifically with Liberty Bell with Glow, with Debbie with Glow. You just talk about this sort of this this attachment that happens when you when you come across a character, you know something that you're just like, wow, I really hope I fucking

I love reading about that audition that you have with Allison. Yeah, by the way, it is as lovely and amazing as we all do. I feel so bad for a sidebar that people nowadays have to like perform a friendship like when they're doing and we're best friends. Like I really feel for the queer Eye guys, because because it can't possibly be um. But I'll mean, I'll show you my sheet we are, like it's crazy. I love her. And so you guys met at the audition Toronto for your

callback audition. Yes, so I had read it was like that was like my fifth audition or I think I'd gone a bunch in I made a tape. Um. And also a thing I'll do is like I'll do the scenes and then I'll do like a weird like ripping off you guys, like a weird video, like a Lawrence video like cat Coo and rip off video, like me as the character or whatever, like being weird like that

was that was the last two years. I was like fuck it because there have been so many times where I saw myself on the page and it didn't work out. Girls Veep Orange is the new Blood, like so many things that I was like, God, I mean I auditioned once, but I was like, well, here we go, and they're like no feedback, um, and so I just I was like, Okay, if the audition is going to be the only time I get to be with this person, and let's just

like make it weird. But yeah. I was then filming something in Toronto and they flew her out there, which was like my social anxiety nightmare. Yes, yeah, because I'm doing like a guest star episode on something and she's like, this gorgeous movie start has to come to Toronto. I mean,

I was like, I'm so sorry. And I remember they told us to wear like athletic clothes, and I was like, she's not gonna be wearing an athletic Like I better like show up and like I'm gonna wear sun dress and flip flops and show her look I'm cool too. And she was in full like year ready to wrestle and looked at my white Irish factory feet and was like, what do you we we were supposed to I'm so sorry. Honestly,

I would have told their flat. I would have been like I would I assume you were going to show up best fancy? Why didn't I do that? Oh my god? Wait did they? So? Then do you mind if I asked?

Did they have to do? They just had you chemistry read with chemistry test with like the wrestling or was it like they know they did uh scenes where it was the scene in the car I ink in the pilot and then the scene where I come in with the baby and yell at which is truly like the thing that hooks You're like, I have to the scene, so like thanks for that making that the auditions, like

it's crazy the gene or whatever. The brain trick it takes to do that in an audition is completely different than doing it on camera, Like some people can turn it on for an audition and then it's it's two totally different muscles, but whatever. That's also a tough scene on the page, of course, to really make that work because that but the believing that she's going to kick

her ass right then and right is a tough turn. Yeah, And it's it's one that like you guys really made it sing, but it was, and it's a really important scene because it's the it's the crux of the whole series, right, Yeah, yeah, I But on the Sam Jones thing, I think you just mentioned this thing where you were like, um, you know, most of like as a defense mechanism, something that kicks in in your brain is that well, I'm not gonna get this. I'm not going to guess I'm not going

to get this. I'm not right for this. But then you were like, but then like sometimes there's this one centimeter tall person in your brain that's just like maybe I'm right for this. Yeah. Like that's like like like like why, like the access to that thing is so

it's so hard. It's so hard. And also I think I did a lot of unhelpful associating, like needing to keep parts of my identity around because I was like, oh, that's what makes me creative is hating myself or what what gives me access to this is you know, not liking uh my face or like having my picture taken like that keeps me me and it I realized like, oh, that's been so that's the reason I didn't get this.

This and this. I've been standing in my own way over and over and over again, just because what I want like street cred with myself when I'm falling asleep. It doesn't feel good street cred with myself when I'm falling asleep. That's like, yeah, like why it's not cool to be negative to self legitimize or whatever and be like, well, I better be true to who you know whatever, Like sometimes you just mythologize in this way. That's so not productive.

It's like the thing of like they say, you go into the audition like and you should act like you already have the part right. That is, it's it's hard to get there right, especially when another like sect of people might tell you like just do it, let it go. You probably won't book it, you know what I mean.

It's like there's two competing things. Well, I feel like the thing to do is what we were talking about before of being like the carbon tim standing under over has maggots and magic, Like it's it's not like I'm amazing and funk at all. It's like like this could be magical, this could be terrible. And also it doesn't matter. The people behind the table are just as scared and lonely and afraid of being found out as I am.

And there they want you to be good. Yeah right, they're really That's the thing too, was I keep reminding myself, is they want to find the right person right enthusiastically show up, you don't know what the outcommends, and then you just hold the dice. Oh my god, you're incredible, Betty. I also now remember like you were fully on that show. Is just like so crazy that she came from our like community. I mean I went to her wedding, yes, and it was I mean talk about culture. Culture, oh culture.

I was to nowhere I grew up eating dry chicken. It looked like the most beautiful ceremony. Oh boy, oh boy. And there were moments I hope so he's okay with me saying where Kenny, I'm married to? You're I mean, you know, it's it's very theatrical. Have you ever been to an Indian wedding. It's like you're watching a play, like a morgeous, beautiful play, and they translate, um, what

everything that's about to happen there? Like and now the husband takes a walk with the father and they talk about the moon and and then it happens before your eyes and everyone was in tears, and then they're sunny. You could tell they told us it was going to happen, because the whole thing is scripted. That Sunny bows to Kenny and then unscripted, Kenny bowed. The whole crowd was like, and then everyone's like, oh my god, beautiful moment for the whole audience that it was. Yeah, I I love

her so much. She's she's been a star since day one. Yeah. Really, she was my entry point to you guys, because I was like these people like in her instagram of the she introduced me to you at the Tabor Reader, Isn't it romantic? And shared the screen? It was very stick a fantic. I was just like, and I still am, but like anyway, I was. That was our first meeting. And I love that movie and I recently I recently

watched it and I saw that you saw. I watched it a movie about magic and magat it is, and I think that movie is underrated and I wanted more Betty in it. I was saying that all the supporting characters, which is such a bummer cool, Like I get it, but I want like when they were doing that part where it's like they were going to do like the changing montage and then they didn't do it. And I was like, I get the community choice that we're making to not do it, but like I want to do it.

I know. It's so crazy. It's it's so it's crazy to do something and then give it to someone else and be like see you in a gear. Good luck changing that into something. I don't know what it's going to be. I mean, right right, it's crazy. It's crazy. So the theater that you did like throughout your twenties, was that like collaborative stuff or was it kind of just like like did you ever like part of creating things? Or No? I was very you know, I grew up.

My parents are actors and we're mostly stage actors um. And even though like growing up, I was like, wow, they're out on GUARDE and now I'm like, oh, they're still even though where their actors are still very old school. That's like you did Summer Stock and you did a R. Gurney plays and you did restoration comedies and that's do in theater and another at um. Although I show that my dad was one of the founders of E. S T.

So Dad, you're both. This is a good entry point for the question because that's my answer to the question you ask it that officially just just for you know, uh, forensic purposes. We'll ask Betty the question what is the culture that made you say culture is for you? And so it's so boring that no, it's a theater. I mean I was like on the way over a like magazines, were you like stage managing when you were like or something? Well, yes, so I definitely grew up. Um, I grew up in

the South Street Seaport in New York. Yeah, I mean famously. I mean I wish we had that. My dad bought with his friend of four story building for I believe it's thirty five thousand dollars and doesn't own it anymore and it's worth millions. But it was like it was super old, like the cobblestone streets and everything, and the ceiling of it was like made of old ship parts. Goes amazing and but like the size of this room

our apartment. Um. But yeah, I grew up with my parents doing off Broadway theater and regional theater, and like you know, I always have been like, oh, it's it's theater that it really is. It's like the culture around it's like backstage culture. Like I think what I'm drawn to is people who are quote unquote forced to be together, like to tech culture, like around being like we have to be here for twelve hours. Let's get into it. Like my mom in a wig cap and a hoop

skirt being like, come in and shut the door. We have to talk about you know who I mean, just watching her hold court and that that was culture to me because you I'm not going to mention it, but like You've made content that is so specific to this, right, my favorite just these isolated lines of like someone in a dressing room, right, yes, it's so good. Wait, okay, so fatwork. Yeah, like beyond just like just the the closeness that you're sort of forced into with tech culture.

I guess tech culture. Yeah, it's almost. It's also like seeing people in the moments that if they were like, oh, make a TV show about my life, do all these moments and you're like, I'm actually it's the tech or the you know, them in a wig cap, like you know, with food on their face being like, I don't know, guys, today, I shipped my pants. Like it's people not at their

worst but kind of at their between or something. And I'm also realizing like I was seeing actors at you know, in my mind at the time, I was like the top that you can be at the Longworth Theater and behave it or K Playhouse, and you know, they were all on their waist somewhere or on their way back down. It was like dames who had been up here and who were now doing the K Playhouse, or like Eneuse who were like K Playhouse and route to something else.

Like kind of seeing seeing the between moments and just between like on some smaller micro cosmic scale than between

in a larger life. Right. I guess that's what funs with my brain so much about press is that there's suddenly this thing of like, oh now we all have to pretend that we're these perfect Like when I when I go sit and talk to Jimmy Kimmel or whatever, professional artists have been working on my face and hair and body for two hours before you've seen me, and I fit with a stylist and like its tailored within an instrument. Like it's the opposite of between culture. It's

like the most binary thing. You're ready or you're not, Yes, right right, go out and go out there. You know, there's no like wink at the smoke and mirrors, there's no and it's so it's so confusing to me. And then and then there's like especially like you start where you start, which is truly the love for the craft,

like you love even the tech of it all. And then you get to this place where you're on a hit show on Netflix and they nominate you for an Emmy, and then you go to the Emmy's and it's like what the fuck. It's like, that's like the height of it, right right, like prodding out of like which one? Will it be? Right? Crazy? Yes? Yeah, I feel like it's I've been thinking about it, like um, and I play

so often. I play characters who are like I've entered the room and sink I'm fantom yes and that, which is crazy, but I try to like it's like in theater school or whatever. You also, by the way, I'm not one of those actresses who was like why did you make me leave the house putting on a show? Like this is my dream? Is it's crazy? I love I'm a show person, and I'm not like why didn't you just let me write in my journal? I want to be right, it's just the here's what it is.

It's like I love the soul church feeling or whatever, like the Joan of Arc monstery part down here and channeling that into a scene like screaming with your baby or whatever. And then in order to get those parts, you have to kind of commute through this like Kylie Cell of like you go up here and you put on take eyelashes and you pose through it and you answer um Miley or Madonna questions and you're kind of

like cutesify yourself a little bit. But you gotta keep that trap door open to the to the Jane of Arc parts, because if you stay too long up here, that trapdoor is going to cement over and you'll be this person forever. And that's what I'm talking about, of Like,

that's what scares me. That's why I'm always like like, for the last Kimmel appearance, I wanted to tell the story of shipping my pants at Nurse Jack because I was like, that'll keep the trap door open, Like, yeah, I'll be I'll be whatever Kylie Barbie person, but I'll be telling a story about the grossest, craziest stuff and

like I'll still be me. And the guy on the phone was like, don't tell this, please don't because to me it was a metaphor for like I had started to try to be naked a ton on that show, so I'd like started to treat myself like, oh, the reason you're here is the Kylie Barbie stuff, not the Joane of Arc stuff. And that could feel the trap door slowly closing, and I feel like shooting my pants was like the Joan of Arc part, like kicking it open, being like you're a funking monstor it is that thing

that makes it like to play the game. And also I want to fucking act, which you and I kind of talk about. I mean, it's a totally different scale and it's such a it's a different sort of exposure of horse. But it's also like sometimes we're like, oh, we didn't think we would have to right do this part and we have to like like cutefy, like really just like reduce our friendship are eleven twelve year friendship

at this point down to like three bullet points. Funny like when when we have to go into rooms and like pitch, yes, right, do you do things to water it to keep the realness. I mean it was funny because the one time we were in Last the well,

we can share this. We were having like a we were having a we were in a little bit of a spot, he and I and we were kind of like having a little bit of a like a rough week, and we would have to go pitch ourselves because Last Cultures for a minute there was going to get pitched as the TV show, and so we would like we were going from place to place and we were just like, oh, like everything's great and then silent and wow, wow, I'm curious that you just I mean, but it kind of

like it gives it an it gives it this topography that like I would not trade it's but it is. It's. It was a very interesting, Yeah, to be in Los Angeles doing that. I was like, huh, this is what people, this is like what this is? Yah? And like that was just like truly part of the ebb and flow of our friend of anyone's friends. Started to feel like merrily we roll along. It started to feel like just like this this this friend, this partnership is breaking down

over like reverse time or whatever. I feel for you guys, because it must be the world is so thirsty for authenticity and things being actually funny and like you guys being so in touch with things that are becoming extinct, like being actually, you're so fucking hilarious and smart, you guys. It's and that it's it's you're basically the last people

on its stngratulations. But it's like, I wonder if it's a matter of like keeping that trapdoor stapled open and being like that's our thing, that we just have constant access to that instead. But sometimes it can totally feel like you've like that Jimmy Kimmel thing if it I thought it was going to feel like I've got the

track was this metaphor tracking? No, I guess so um to me, I was like, this is gonna be my way of holding it open and being like, yes, I'm in these clothes, but here's a dark, weird part of me that real is real. And I sat down and I there were so many checkpoints in my brain that I realized like, oh, it actually is, Like was a jone of arc monster part of me that I then like threw a bow on and some lip gloss on. It was like, come on, honey, like we gotta sell

this thing. And that part of me was like and now you hurt me, and you know, it's it's so hard to navigate when you're doing that and when you're not. It's been I will say, it's been kind of nice and I feel lucky. I don't know how you feel, but at least over the past couple of years, I kind of was like, if you commit to being yourself, that actually is what it is, like whoever you are, as long as you commit to that like and are that truthfully, whether that's a funny person, well that's a

very smart person, a very talented person. I think, as long as you commit to being who that is. And of course there's those little moments where you have to you feel like you have to like, you know, negotiate what people want from you. But it's about figuring out, like, well, how do I be me in this scenario? You know what I mean. I think that's when as the stakes have gotten a little bit higher, like you know, and

things things happen. It's just every time I go on like a podcast and I'm being myself, it's like recently I had someone like attacked me for using a certain word, like I used the word, um, I know it's I know, it's I shouldn't say it now, And I'm gonna make an effort. But I used the word psycho to say

something was like crazy or like bad. I I used it was so I used the word psycho and someone like really was like, hey, I'm I'm a psychotic and like that really hurt me when you said that, And I was like, well, I mean this is just gonna

come with the territory. It's like, right, you're gonna have to be more careful about what you do and like hear people because what he's saying is a real thing, and b it's like I would never have thought that, but that's just it's just like you learn that and you take that and then you're just going to take that and that's part of what you know now and then you just be you try your best to be yourself at your best. But then, but knowing yourself is

not thinking of yourself as like a fixed point. It's thinking of yourself in terms of these axes of like I'm a Jane of arc or i m a highlie, right, And it's hard to know when that stuff is helpful and when it's not. Like emotionally cutting The next day, I watched the first part of it, the Kimmel thing and then scrolled around um and they were like three compliments that I just didn't even think that went right

through my brain. And one person wrote like like like like she says like a billion times she's a dits. What is her purpose? I was like, you do that, Betty next time. Don't say like yeah, you don't even do that in real life. Come on like you don't like like like you don't want to a pure stut. And then I was like, no, yeah, who cares. Wait then you'll just do no words will come out of your mind. It will be only checkpoints and no content. It will be only Kylie and no Joan of Arc exactly,

and the trap Drob will have close. We must we must keep it open. I can't believe we're I I this is still church to me. Just you and yes, I god, I just you're You're just incredible, Betty. You just I mean, for what it's worth, We just fucking love you. I mean it is. When I say it's my favorite performance on television, I'm I'm because because it's fun, but it's also so emotionally grounded, Like that fourth episode of the second season, WHOA like I would have gotten

this it was did you remember this one? It was a kind of sort of like very very um Debbie and also a very very um uh well for her queen. It was like a motherhood episode and it was the episode where um uh her son comes and sees her. Her son goes to Stamford and yes, and he says, well, I want to see what you do because she gets recognized from the show, and he goes and sees her, and it's this horrible sort of like very very very

devastating moment where she's playing this racial stereotype. Stevens is the actual Instagram and she's an actual Kia. Stevens is amazing and she she's right, there's and this this scene was a son too, very good and there was just that moment and then he he was you know, he accepted her at the end because I think that you know that this is a nothing about the show is it was hard. It's hard for actresses even now, like you get the work and to do the work and

then you have questions about the work. I mean Suna's character, especially Meantime stay mental Plague star actress about no I love that want to play it on my Yeah, it is confusing because it's I feel like Glow is a good metaphor for you know whatever the girls in it think they're doing this weird, cool thing with their imagination and powerful thing with their bodies, and because their women in tiny costumes is viewed with the male gaze first,

and like what's the expiration date on that? Like, I do have that question to the world that I don't want to answer to comment sections of like, hey, thanks for letting me be here. This is so amazing. I never thought this would happen. Is it because of the jone of our stuff or the Kylie stuff? Because the Kylie stuff is gonna go away, My tids are gonna

be in my shoes, this Irish face. Genetically, I was meant to like write a long poem in an attic and diet forty like she's not meant for HD came so, like there's stuff that's gonna spire. I do like quick so and I want to be here for a long time. Well but it's the real thing. But up here you're asking that question because it's like, especially in a show like Glow, where it is like, you know, you look at the marketing and of course there are going to be a lot of people out there that are like

women wrestling, right, And then it's good. But then you watch the show and it's really just it's just this a great story. But also when I play a lawyer, I'm in here and make up for two hours. I never ever get recognized because an no money. But also be like I they beat Mufface and like like for any part, and it's sometimes I'm like, is that always going to be the thing I have to do? Because I don't know who knows I hear, I hear what you're saying. I think that like yeah, I mean for me,

it's just what move what moves? Of course, me like a gay man, like just loving the like I love actresses acting all the time. But it's for me, it's just like the second season, like I really thought I thought the first scene was Wisden was great and the second season it's fantastic. UM And I really thought they that the way that they handled to me two storyline was very interesting because if if you remember, UM, you know your character sort of says like what the fun

which is? Which is it? You know? You know you you see it even now on Big Little Lies with Meryl Streep's character and the way that she deals with question Okay, you will absolutely be on the floor. Um. It's it's like very big little lines like it is comically it's like it's like overdrawn, but I want them to be literally eating the walls. Yeah, but did you

correct me? Biting? But like, um, yeah, this so interesting that like, um, your character was like that's what this is when she rebuffs um, the advances of an executive right. So that was such like a it almost to me, like really showed like this is like a psychology thing that's been in many women for so long. It's not like we all like even thought this could be different. This is a psychology. This is a thing that has

been great. I think that that's something that our show does well that I feel like there's this trend happening where we really want to talk about erasure, like erase um like have the outwardly moaha haa characters be the ones who are racist and sexist and have everyone else have only scenes to be like that guy is wrong and the end where it's in the groundwater Like I'm sure if you in any of our parents or any generate, like anyone over forty or thirty like with interviewed for

a long time, they'd say things where like, oh, don't say that, um, and I think we're doing ourselves a disservice to write scenes that are it's it's just washing away the fact that there's a there's a racist, sexist person in every single brain, no matter how big or small that person is, and it's about killing that person and be honest about that person in your own brain. It's it's its own it's its own delusion to write, you know, right too moralistic things where you know these

characters have continant world views with yours. It's like no, it's like just yeah. Part of me watching it was like there was there was an instinct to me when Mark, when Mark's character, Mark Marin's character was like fuck that guy, I was like, are we letting this kind of white guy like be the one to be like fuck him? Right? Right then? I was like, I actually think it's just a more truthful, sort of very character driven thing for

Debbie to be like what the fuck? You know what I mean, especially with the baggage between them, and I kind of was like, I think it's really dynamic and interesting what they did. Yeah, I loved it. It's it's perfect. Um, I think it's time. I think it's time for I don't think. Okay, so this is my enough, you know, but this is our segment that we do. And by the way, we should say we are going to be on tour. Yes, we announced for new dates. Are you

in Orlando, Queen? Do I go to Orlando? Or do you let you to enjoy the parks the park experiences. I know that you're very pro Disney. I've never been to Disneyland. I would love for you to some days. Honestly we should go see the next time. The next time you're in l A and I'm in l A, We're gonna go because also a lot of cool new stuff will be open, like Star Wars Galaxy's Edge, and also we can go over to Universal Stity Is Hollywood

and do the new Dost Jurassic World the Ride. Bryce Dallas Howard and Chris Pratt have film new se iconic Bryce Dallas who I'm going to say, what star star? But actress I've a sign star? I think? Can I say something about Bryce Dallas, Bryce Stallas Howard, you never every time every time she's on screen, I'm like this is crazy. I was like, this is like, this is crazy because you would never like pick Bryce Styllas Howard.

But then you do, hear me, But then you start watching her and you're like the choices, Yeah, the theatric coge never pick Bryce Stallas because every time, like for example, for Bryce Stallas Howard to be the lead of Jurassic World the films, it's like kind of cookie because you think they're gonna go for like someone like a Jennifer Lawrence, you know what I mean. You think they're gonna go for someone that's like Bryce Stallas Howard like she, but

then I don't know. She's got the iconic carecut. She makes choices every single time. And the help is you are obsessed with the blunt bang. Hi, I love the well we should just know producer Emma just came embroidered. Look, but anyway, I'm talking about Bryce Dallas Howard, So sit down, shut up to it, all right. So, so Bryce Dallas Howard, I feel like I watched her in Rocketman. Did you see a Rocketman? No? I haven't yet. You gotta go. It's good and I have PTSD from Bohemian Rhapsody. But

brocket Man is good. But anyway, um, Bryce Dallas is in it being a cartoon villain, but we love and Bryce Dallas. Never forget Slade Black Mirror. It's actually real culture number sixty six, Slade Black Mirror. And also I think it is the cardinal sin of Jurassic World fall on Kingdom that she wasn't in a more chopped bang and a higher heel. They gave her a ponytail and a flat I said the iconic moment in Jurassic World was her running from the t Rex in the heels. Yeah,

did you see Jurassic World. We can't. We can't argue that. Like she also has had the resume like she was in Spider Man three, like she's done a big blockbuster movie, because she's not like yeah, well, I don't know. I think it's I love it. I'm not saying I don't like it. I'm saying it's like, whoa this? You would never pick her? Like, yeah you would, She's she's been a draw like she's whatever. Can I say one thing? Yes, okay,

say whatever you want very quick. I feel like people like show people, weird people, people who were you know, clowney Hammy. I'm not making assumptions about no, you know, we're kids who were like that and realized they had that like like a dark ham person inside them, and then realize, like middle school, high school, this my experience

sounds Oh that's not gonna like fly. I gotta suppress that part and just swallow that, keep that down, perch myself on like the arm of this couch and just try to enjoy you watching video games and try to get through this party or whatever and suppress, suppress, press And then for me in theater school, after like whatever, swallowing that part of me for so long, finding people who were like I went out to get John produced the first day of Fordham Theater with uh, my first

gay friend, Brenda Norton, and we went to John and he was wearing overalls and a flower crown. Um. We tried each other's smoothies. This is so weird. Tried each other smoothies and in the same gremlin voice said, I like mine, and I burst into tears when someone, when you find someone and when that part of you is like, hey, I'm still here. I know like you muffled me for so long and I didn't fit at that keg party for so or or the stick or trading in middle

school or whatever. But like, I'm here and if you water me with the right people, like I can be the best thing about being alive. And I think that that I'm so sorry. I think that that's why I love your podcast so much. It's clear that you guys found each other and that you're doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing. And I'm just I'm just feel like I need to like pull you over on the road to greatness and going the exact right way. Can we check him? This is unreal? Thank you so much

for that? Can I I can't? Can I ask you a question though? How proud are you a writer? But

that's that's what reminded me. Like last night we were we were just saying, like I remember John Eally on Seek Treatment was talking about he and Kate Berlant what it feels like to hang out with her after a long time, just but like he was like, they'll laugh and be like, oh finally a real laugh like writer, And I I was like, if my brain is a house with you, I don't need to worry about vacuuming or putting up, Like I just prop open the doors,

like let the bees fly. It like it just we're we don't we basically don't use English with each other and cry last I mean, it's so good finding your people. Yeah, put the code over when you're going past the bones. Yea, and yeah keep the track open. You don't stand Kylie too long. I've learned Church. It is so church, not a front dark horse for title of Okay, I feel like magasine magic is it? Um? That is very meaningful. Thank you so much. Yeah, and I really mean it.

Oh my god, I don't even know what to do with it. I'm going to dine out on this to myself. No, he's going to tell a lot of people. He's gonna get on the press, he's going to get on his Instagram story. No one's gonna listen to it. Oh my god. Anyway, well that was gorgeous. I feel like, now we're going to do I don't think something I'm I'm not no, no, no, it's you know, the people, non comedians you've had on that stage come up and do better than any of

the comedians. I'm so plus you are the moment in the last episode of Glee season two where like Glee, Oh my god, culture number hundred Glow? What was the moment in Glow? In Glow Um, Netflix is Glow. So there's Horatio Stands is like telling them like all about how they're going to go to Las Vegas. That he just goes, I'm sorry, who is this guy? Who are you? It was so funny and he's like, oh, this is like my friend and he's like, oh, okay, sorry, And then there was music too that cut out and came

back in so funny. You get like, I'm not done. Do you get to watch it before that you goes on Netflix? You being the star of it? Yes, they sent it out to all of us on like a little secret link um and I this is the first time I've ever done this where I watched season three and in the final episode I had a sit on my forehead that was people have died trying to climate. Oh my god, was casting a shot. I can't And I emailed them being like, can't do we have time

to touch this? It was visible in low yeah, oh yeah, no. The moment I remember being like, Betty plut your shoulders down, no one can see no, honestly, go eliminate the checkpoints. Just be And I was like this is a career, and they retouched it and I watched it again. It's gone. Here's my skin looks perfect. In episode ten, I was having a cystic, horrific break out. Wait, this is crazy to me. Okay, so you're able to email them and they take that out and you're telling me that no

one noticed those coffee cups and Game of Thrones. I think it's on purpose. They're too scared of those actors. I think they run that show and for some on like a twenty three year old with a headset being like, hey, we're ready to roll. You gonna keep drinking like I think they're probably like I'll drink when I want. And I not that they're assholes. It's just like Familia Clark. She's in character as an heiress for all for all. You know, she could say drekars and it could be

over about oh my god. Well, okay, one more thing. Did you shoot the whole season? She's three in Vegas? Okay, in l A. And then we drove out to Ontario, California for the exteriors. Okay, okay, because I think probably nothing looks like Vegas, that's true. Yeah, yeah, Vegas now is very Vegas. Now, so that's the big turn. Remember they're going to go to Vegas at the end of it. And now I love it because I just I just rewatched it and now it's going to be back like

in truly minute. I love and I I discovered you on the show, but I had been a bree head for quite a long time and we were so excited for Sunita. Yes, and this season, I can tell she's going to get along. Yes she is. You know, it's really an all both rising season. I love that. Yes, it's the especially also shout out to Chris Lowell because he is quietly slaying on that show and has been what he has been really great for a long time.

You know, he's great. I'm gonna cherry pick. I'm gonna cherry pick and say that it's this is like a straight actor playing a gay character that I'm like, cool because I bought, you know, because it's it's I don't even know the words, but it feels right to me. Like and also like I thought maybe I was making that up for a second season. I was like, I don't think, but maybe yes. And then this storyline with the you know, spoiler alert, but his best friend and

Butler passes away of complications to AIDS. And the last scene and when he's when you can tell there's still the panic about AIDS and he has someone come over and clean the house and he's crying by the pool, and I'm like, that is what that looked and felt like to have that moment and to not even really express and yeah, at least at that stage of that character's sort of journey, it's like he wouldn't really even like have the language to like it's at that time

and the tunnel vision into that marriage, you know what I mean, Just like the kind of there's and such good acting there was really Oh my god, I cannot wait. I was There's an episode where I was standing up and screaming at my TV. Wow boys, Wow, and I'm gen and Miss Gina it's gonna be on. We cannot believe. I love this show. It's so good. Okay, anyway, so now we're gonna get that. I don't think Foy, but I wasn't done talking about Glee. Um another iconic show.

Yes about the large cast. O, Hey, I do have something. I do something, man. It's a little bit of a twist on the floor which we love and stand. We love and stand. This is Mount Rogers. I don't think so many as time starts now. I don't think so honey, me on a plane, Okay, I'm disgusting. I am rude, I am short tempered, and I am loud. Here is how all those things happen. I am that bitch that takes my shoes off on the plane, even if it's a short flight. Honeyton and took it. I took my

kickers off and put my piggies on the ground. I am the person who not bear with a sock. But that doesn't matter when you've been wearing your sock for a day. Oh they didn't smell grade. Also, I walked to the bathroom in my socks and use the bathroom in my socks. Couldn't be about to put my shoes on. I don't think so, honey. Me on a plane that is disgusting. I don't think so, honey. The fact that I am rude on a plane. I had to get

up and check my bag for some thing. The flight attendant said it has to be quick, and I said, without thinking, no kidding, that was doing your job. I don't make so honey, me. I am a bitch on a plane. I don't think me. I am loud, my headphones absolutely blair. I am always watching the same thing, which is clueless. Watched the same film sometimes twice in a row. It comforts me. I'm not a good flyer. I don't mink so handing me on a plane. Chill out. Take a VI Take a Zadaxe and that's one minute.

Take a Vike. Take no, no, no no, I didn't mean Viking Max. Next. My best flight experience. I took half his annex, passed out, woke up, didn't have to didn't have time to take my shoes off and be grosser. That's dreaming me next time. Just do you dreaming me? And they'll sell out the airport promotions. But it kind of is drowsy, and so you'll The thing is, I'm not a good flyer, and so I do all my creature comforts to make sure I'm okay. I also always

drink alcohol on a plane. Yeah, it's like a thing I like, I will knock back to I p a s in the in the airport, and then I'll get on there and I'll drink like a bloody Mary in the sky. Like I'm on drapery great in the sky, but I don't think it's punning me on a plane, and I've been on a lot lately and it's not good. The shoes worry me because okay, this is so. This is my friend last year had a mouset his pants leg on a plane. The mouse is in the air.

The mouse was thirty three k high, and to save the plane, he was like, I need to be quiet and I need to not talk about this for three months. Wait wait wait, wait wait, so the mouse traveled up. Did he get it out? He just shook us like a little bit calmly. No, decided not to talk about it for a while. Oh my god, I would say what I probably would have done? Wow? Yeah, what would I have done? Because it would you learn to flight attendant. This is a very If you're not on good terms

with that, your credit score needs to be hot. Truly, my credit score is about two D the air honestly, like my social credits door. But I literally I heard, okay, so this is what happened, and this is a w W y D what would you do? Yes? Um, So I heard what had to be a cooler tip over above me, and I said, I heard the ice go and I heard the water rush, and I said to myself in I said to myself out lout of the window, I said, well that was ice. Well that was water

and ice. And the woman next to me said, I don't know. I think it might just be the plane. I said, I'm so sorry, I'm crazy. Can you just move out of the way real quick so I can look up there and just make sure. She goes, yeah, it's probably fine. I was like, I know, I'm just annoying. And I went up there and the flight attendant said, so you need to be in your seat. And we were on the tarmac, not having taken off yet, nothing, and I was like, I just didn't check my bag.

She goes, it needs to be quick, and I got no kidding, and it was I'm not was the ice? No, the bad was fine. It's a mystery what it was. It was a ghost, okay, it was an ice ghost. A whole buyer's story about finding little piece of dried poop in the in the blanket. Wo sorry, so this will actually be Bowen Yang's I don't think so, honey, and his time starts now. I don't think so, honey.

Verizon Fio, specifically the technician whose name was Ian who came into my house and like talked down to me like I was a fool, and I was like no, no, no, like trust me, like I've done all the work here, like just I've done the speed test, like I like, I'm I'm not a I'm like a dilettant when it comes to this. But I was like, it's bad, It's bad, it's bad. And he was like kind of like putting the moves on me shut and I think he was

like trying to funk and I was like oh. And then what he did was I'm in a post private browsing with my porn on my phone, and so he at one point he goes, let's test, let's test the connection. Give me your phone and it was like okay, and I gave it to him. And then he goes on my browser and starts typing, s, I forget what some

speed test things, speed test dot com whatever. S. First thing that pops up is Seawan Cody and then he which is a gay porn sight and he five seconds he stops and he goes hm and keeps t and like it was truly embarrassing and humiliating. I don't think that was not really. That was not really I don't think so many. But it was just like me kind

of retelling this harrowing tale with this technician. He was like kind of like trying to funk and and then was just like, oh, wow, what makes you think he was t two f He was just I'm me up and down. No, I can't do it to me. I can't because I'm bad at just doing this to anybody. When it's like what I want to do, I can't do it. He was just like, oh that was really sexual, and he and like and I'm just gonna say the man had a lot of rings on. It was like very and like had like a little the man had

a lot of rings on and like, okay, bash. It was not a bash. It was just like this is like the stuff was a line. It was all aligning and I was like, no, this is my night. And he didn't even fucking fix it in my internet still bad. I thought it didn't even sucking suck me. He didn't and he didn't even suck me. It was it was not and it was not I was not. I was like, no, well that sucks, all right, versing FiOS is Ian. You've been read to filp and read to filth anyway, and

the question is what will Betty Gilpin read again? Stop now, this is your This is going to be transcendentating the checkpoints, checkpoints, keeping the jone trapped door open. This is Betty Gilpin's I don't think so many her time starts now. I don't think so, honey. Using teen trendy empowerment as an invisibility cloak for self promotion. Testing your I am dB credits are not a step forward for humanity. Did not become an actor because you just love humans and you

want humans to do well. Became an actor because you want you to do that's helpful. Going to Africa and helping He's something that helps no one being on a multicamp. Don't think so, honey. The commercialization of female insecurity, like the blushing and the don't look over, heres to the people who actually struggle with self hatred. I give leave

me something. I don't want to see you taking thousand selfies, white knuckling it to the top of the mountain, getting to the top of the mountain and being like, who me, how did I get here? I'm looking at you, Taylors, Oh my god started Wow fucking love that. Okay. And you know what, when you guys were talking to the beginning about the hashtag right reasons to use Bachelor Nation speaking yes, I kind of got in my head. I was like, am I doing this for the reason? Maybe?

And you know what, sometimes the podcast, no just like just this in general, just just show biz, and I'm just like sometimes I'm like, dang, I'm I'm a fraud, aren't it? But that's like, so do it for validation? We just don't. We just say, don't pretend. Don't pretend. And that's the thing with Taylor ms Swift And I actually liked that song on the calm Down song you need to Calm Down, until I heard the shade thing

and I was like that seems a little strange. And then the playing at stonewall of it all really pushed me over the edge. I was like, see, now this is a co opting moment. This is where you are just kind of centering yourself on it. But like, also truly like the Taylor's the Swifty hate that you you especially got to be honest, I didn't get too much.

I got I got it from the specific people. This one person who came for me and l yeah, racially attacked Joel for saying his father doesn't love him and because you're an adopted child, blah blah blah blah, then coming to me and being like, must well, first of all, I did a cover of Gay Rights featuring and Dowd, which is one is my song, which is a mad song, so I do it's a yes, Betty, Oh my god, Wow, that's do a cover. Oh my god, incredible. And when Swifty comes after me and I know I saw I

didn't like and goes, wow, y'all are bored. Hant I go, thanks for the quote. I was like, not really starting. I was just like kind of like, I see you, not like insulting her or anything. And then she's just like, well, yeah, I guess you. I guess. I guess it's I guess verified but irrelevant Twitter life must must be, must be boring. I'm like, must pay the bill somehow. I was like, I told her, was like, I have multiple revenue streams that have nothing to do with the way that you've

chosen to interact with me on this. These people, I look around in public spaces and I'm like, is it you? Is it you? I know? And the crazy thing is they are out there in droves. Yes, but it's like this blind like do you love a diva so a songstress so much that you would like go out of your way on the internet to like, sorry Kelly, but I would never ruin someone's life in the name of Kelly because I know that she wouldn't want me to do that. I celebrate the gospel, Kelly, come on, I

don't tell. And also Kelly would get on her Twitter and clap clap down, and that's why hasn't really done that yet. No, here's the thing, And look, you can't just come out as first of all, it's privileged to even say I'm going to play Stonewall. It's just it's like what It's like, what was the process there? Also, you've done truly nothing for the gay community at all. She's donated. I mean, you know what, I'm not going to say, she's not done nothing. But it's just funny. However,

Man's like has done that. She really drove a lot of donations to GLAD, Like, okay, great Glad, we love GLAD. But it's of course it's a media organization that like counts, like engagement with like gay media. Like I think there's a thing where you have like when you're a successful woman, the only way that all of society is going to accept you is if you also play into this like underdog narrative and I hate myself and why am I here? And it's hard to get and keep an underdog narrative

when you're insanely successure. So I think she's trying to attach herself to a cause or an underdog narrative to be like, see, I'm still you can still from still a cause to be rooted for. It's not zero sum. I think. I don't think it's like I think. I think it's good that she is like kind of like modeling a new version of Ally ship in. But it's just like they're just these little little holes that I keep I keep I I keep poking into like the tailor,

like the fandom of it all. Just be like wait, hold on, look, every Ally, it's always good to have allies, And if anyone wants to step forward and say they're an Ally, that's amazing. I support them. But like you have to with her, understand, But it's always a business.

But with what bas thing, which is like yeah the whip saw on all this is that she's so successful, but then she still needs to like kind of cultivate something water, something that's that's tough, that's tough, like Goga on the Star is Born Tour like she's someone who I look to to be like how what does believing in yourself and giving no fox look? And then the Oscar to it felt all of a sudden like whoa, I can't believe I'm here. Gee willockers me like will

yeah your way here? Yeah you as someone who lives in g is mired and g Willaker, I need to get out of it and learn how to get out of it, like it's the only way that all of society is going to except a woman. That is something Beyonce does well because she's fully She's fully out there, like this is a documentary about how an Apple in four Months, which has its problematic ship where it's lying, but it's like Beyonce is literally like she will never

show up and say she'll barely say thank you. She'll she shows up and she says m which I love with the Gaga Star is Born of it all, what I choose to believe is that she is. She was. You know, her whole career is about performing fame, and for this stage in her career, she was performing in the like yes, the Yeah, the Star is Born narratives Starlett who's just like and my and it couldn't have done it without that man, like that's like such a

it's such a fun juicy, like ridiculous thing. And Bradley Mark like just so funny. And also the dichotomy between the performances of Shallow by herself and the performances of Shallow with him, like gingerly holding each other's fingertips as she glides up the stage of the Oscars and turns to face him while he flatly sings that first first and then like sweeps her gown and sits on the piano, and Middley sings meanwhile at the Grammy and she's like,

she's like fully like screaming, I'm likely Lady Garga. Yes, she had to play the part that she there was. She was a small town girl that they plucked out of nowhere for the film. You were playing the stadiums for Wow, And honestly, here we all just did a collective I don't think so, Honey, we dad, We don't think. We don't think. It was so so amazing to have you here. I mean, like you know now, but and you've known before, but we couldn't be bigger fans. And

now I feel the same. Oh my god, we try. I cried. I left my body. I left my body. In fact Um season three of Treason, I almost said, as a joke, season again, but like it's no joke. Glee has been canceled for years. Glow is still on, Honey and it's coming back on August nine. Patty Gilpin, love you guys, Thank you so much. Oh my god. We we will do. We'll sing a quick little song. Did you finish every every um episode with a song? Jill?

Miss something girl Fine. This has been a Forever Dog production executive produced by Brett Bollum, Joe Cilio, and Alex Ramsey. For more original podcasts, please visit Forever Dog Podcasts dot com and subscribe to our shows on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Keep up with the latest Forever Dog news by following us on Twitter and Instagram at Forever Dog Team, and liking our page on Facebook.