“Interested People Make Interesting People” (w/ Katie Couric)

one of my enemies. It could be, it could be, And then what, um, I don't think you have very many enemies, Matt Rodgers. You know what's weird. I was thinking about this the other day because I'm I'm reading this book that our guests wrote. The undercurrents of it are like, you know, wanting to be likable, like living working in a position where you have to sort of have a degree of likability. And I was like, I wonder if people truly like, oh my goodness, I was

actually this kind of ran through my head. This is an impossible question to answer. And then I understand the end of the book and sort of the author of of said book, and our guests today sort of arrived at the same conclusion, and I sort of breathed a sigh of recognition relief. Um at all at all, at all, at all, that's all that's usually Latin to refer to people. But I think in this case we've got Jared saying yes,

you just have to acknowledge. Jared Keller is in the chat, is in the zoom, and I think he's going to chime in every now and then with some with some commentary, and we welcome that, I hope. So he's he's already a character in the episode. He's a character in the episode. We've introduced him into the world. Um, Matt, I'm so

excited about our guests. This is this is actually do you remember when we started this podcast and pretty much for the past five years we've kept up going, and it's always been sort of like, you know, are a little stupid baby, And now all of a sudden, yeah, yeah, yeah, because I don't think we have another stupid baby unless so all of a sudden sort of here we are and our guest is on, and I gotta break out them away and say, not for nothing, but what the hell,

what the hell, what the hell? She's first and foremost a last Culturesta's Culture Award nominee. I actually was going to say this is her greatest achievement that she gets nominated in the category of Best Haskar, Best Askar. I think she really I feel like she's the front runner, especially after coming on the show. I mean, can you imagine if she would be snubbed at the last second. That would just be cruel, that would be very cool.

She just crossed her fingers and she's got other achievements to under her belt, I'd say, I would say, so. I mean, is it an exercise in not futility, but in sort of communicating what people already know if we run through the credits or should we just you know, you know what they say? I said, Letterman says, my guess my next guest truly needs no introduction, And I

feel like this is like the epitome of that. But that being said, for for our readers that might be living under a rock, to just throw another expression out there, I think this is the wrap it up, giving us the wrap it up. It's just shut up, but keep going. Actually, you know, it's yeah, it's it's on. It's on PRANP shut shut up and keep going. Is Let's just say, um, I don't. It's truly surreal because I think that outside of my parents growing up, this is the person I

saw the most in my home. Every single day. We were a Today Show household. Where you guys at Today Show household, we were a Today Show household. Absolutely everything was dirty rock at my house. It was still to this day, I know a man, Yeah, whatever you know. I um, I worship at the altar of one erstwhile ahead of NBC. Mr Jeffer's who is really a good character in this book. Great character in this book. I was loving every experience expeareen and I mean, we'll get

into it. There's there's there's a lot that that happens just in the I mean, can we talk about this. Let's just say about the book. There's a lot that happens. When was the last thing you tore through a five hundred pager? Okay, I'll tell you honestly, the day before

I read this's this book. I read this book not All Diamonds and Rose, which is a story of the Real Housewives franchise, So that was it was merely twelve or fourteen hours before I tore through this five hundred plus pager that I got through this, yes, five plus pager. Also a page turner. I wouldn't say, not as much of an achievement as going there by our guest, but a great read none the less that I endorse. I think this is the ideal reading experience for me. Because

I'm clutching the galley in my hand. It's a five hundred pager. The average page count per chapter I will know, I'll say, the number of chapters. Love this? About to do the math that's you. You're averaging out about five pages per chapter. And let me tell you tastes authors take note. Literally, I was like, they all need to be like this. Well, this is someone who knows how people consume information and how to tell stories and how to tell stories. And I think she's done it with

a plum and a lan. I want to talk to her. Let's talk to her well before before we get going. Please check her out. If you're in New York, Boston, Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta, Los Angeles, San Francisco, please check her out on her going their book towere. She's got wonderful special guests and truly span all industries and types of people. It really is unmissable wherever you live in different creeds, colors, nationality, shape sizes, all different kinds of people. Guests on this book.

Guest on this sub to her. She was rehearsing for it this morning and we're so excited to have her. So everyone, please welcome into your ears. Katie Kirk Craziness. Hi, guys, I'm so excited. Thank you very much for having me. You've just lowered my demographic by about thirty years, so I really appreciate. That's what it is. We're just a tool to you are only you are basically mad. I'm using you for your following. Now. I'm really excited to

be here. It's our honor and pleasure. Honestly, Like when we felt we heard that you wanted to do this, we were like, oh my god, and then I really in reading the book, it's just so good, Like, really, congratulations on it. Thank you? Did you both really read the book? Yes? Thank you. First of all, thank you so much for reading it, because that's a commitment. And um, I worked really hard on it over three years, and I think it shows all the research I had to

do because I have a good memory, but not that good. So, UM, I just want to say thank you. I'm really grateful that you took the time to read it, and I can't wait to hear what you thought, or what questions you have or what it made you think about, because it is it is a lot. I mean, it's very expansive, and it covers a lot of different things, and I think it's kind of sneaks in a lot of issues that I think people might be surprised to read about.

I don't think they're no, they're reading about issues per se, but they I think through my forty year career whatever, in my sixty four year old life, it spans a lot of big societal changes and kind of uh, it's perfect for the culturalistas because it really talks about culture, right Yeah. Can you can you immediately tell in doing press for this which people have read the book, in which people haven't, Yes, of course. Well, sometimes it also

depends on the venue. Um, you know, some of these interviews just don't don't allow you to kind of talk about anything in depth. I really enjoy doing an interview with Terry Gross other day from Fresh Air. Um, I felt like Terry read it and was really interested in all the things that I was interested in when I was writing it, instead of kind of the garbage, tabloid e stupid stuff that has been completely distorted, blown out of proportion, and and willfully misrepresents what this book is

all about. It's been very strange on I've been really piste off about it. For you, isn't well you having read the book and then but prior to that, having possibly seen some of the the junk that's been put out there, were you like, wait what? And and were you expecting the book to be very different given some of the crap that's been circulating, no considering the sources

of the trash. It was very like, I I will take this with the biggest rock of salt, you know, Like I mean, if the Post is writing about it. When I start New York Post, I was like, Oh, they're are using the word misogynists to describe Katie Keric that that's the most hilarious thing I've ever heard in my life. Tell me more, just kidding, tell me nothing.

It was just it. But what I've been really sort of disappointed by is like I was watching as I want to do, I was watching watch what happens Live the other night, and they made the gross mistake, I think, in programming and just in general of having Megan McCain and Sup and they have them on on a Wednesday night first of all, which is Beverly Hills night, and it's like, why do we have Kyle Richards. It's like there's a lot of eyes on itself. Of course they

get the spot. I don't know why. But he asked them about your book and s E turns to Megan and goes, well, we both hate it and you can Megan, and she just kind of says like why would you

tear down other women like etcetera, etcetera. And I'm just like they're just having this like this discussion that says to me, obviously they have not read the book, because had Megan McCain read the book, she, out of all people, would have so would would recognize that you guys have so much in common because of the loss that you guys have both experience, because of what you've had to

go through. So that all she can sit there and say is well, I think it's pathetic that she trashed other women and like that's not how we are after reading the book. It just really disappointed me even more

because it's that's just not the point. Well, it's so clear, and stop holding up the real house when you talk about my across the But but I think it's so clear that they haven't read the book, and it's honestly kind of weird and irresponsible and really creepy for them to make these big pronouncements when they haven't read the book and they're taking bits and pieces from Well, doesn't Megan McCain work for the Daily Mail? Now I don't

know what she does. I think she does, Yeah, she works for the Daily Mail, which you know, it's just sort of crazy. It's it's grossly irresponsible of them, and listen, they I'd be happy to have them talk about the book if they read the book and understood the totality of it. But I think they're trying to be in my draft a little bit and get you know, some people I think are trying to get attention by talking

about my book if they are just thirsty in general. Yeah, it's so strange that you, of all people, would not be a nearer to all of the weird fucking stuff that like people will start to manufacture around like you as a person in terms of you in your output, like this is this is something that's happened to you your whole career, I would say, you mean in terms of just people like real projecting, projecting. I think it's so funny, it's so ironic and not in a good way.

That my prologue talked about trying to write a book that showed my multidimensionality, if you will, that people sort of put women for aticularly in this box, and yet it's sort of happening again there I talk all about. You know, I think one of my favorite chapters was the Booking Wars, because I mean, didn't that look sound like a made for TV series? Right? And and and and I think that it was. I had so much

fun writing it. Some of the stuff is very cheeky, you know, my sense of humor, I hope comes through. And uh, I laugh about the Booking War, and I laugh about the Booking Wars, and I laugh about kind of them pitying women against each other, and of course, you know, we were the ones that were expected to secure the big gets. But I also talk about how women are portrayed in the press of you know, these cat fights. Is just cating it for the press, and

and here you go. It's very meta seeing this actually play out by people who haven't even read the book. You know the thing I first of all, I don't trash any women. Hello certainly did not, you know. And the only thing I said, which I think was incredibly self aware. And any of these people in these professions would admit that once in a while I felt territorial about my turf right and their turf force all the time. There were then there are now that go on in television.

I know that, but I don't think anyone wants to admit that, Oh yeah, sometimes they feel insecure and territorial. And I'm like, yeah, I feel that I felt that way. Sometimes I'm admitting it. I'm calling myself out on it,

so like, fuck off. It seems it seems like it's it's like, um, if a man had written and not to be like when it's a man and that like and like you know, repeat someone like talk talking about But it really feels like if a man had written this book and like owned up to a lot of this stuff and was willing to talk about an engage in a lot of this stuff, people would be like it's nice to hear it like discussed in this way, and what what a thoughtful recollection on the Times, and

and like with you, it seems like it's this bizarre thing where even women in media are like, well, I didn't know she was a meme girl, which came out of Sonny Houstin's mouth the other day on The View, I was like, are you kidding me? Wow, maybe I shouldn't do that show. Well, there something the fact that they keep talking about how excited they are to have you, but they are so you're certainly quite a topic on hot topics. And do you think they've read the book?

Because I that's the thing. I don't know. I don't I don't think I should go. I don't think I should talk about this book to people who haven't read it. That seems sensible, It really does, because it will only be misunderstood only I mean, because this is this is I mean, I'm okay, I'm holding up the spine of this. This is this is tome thickness. Okay, I'm saying this is like, this is a this is a big, long, nuanced,

in detailed book. And she's sick, she's maybe she's thick She's stilled, there's no way that people are gonna be able to distill this down to like, especially on a television show. There's no way that they're going to like really nailed what you're trying to say. And it's it is interesting what Matt just said, like there is no way that any well, I think this is your point in the Booking Wars chapter, right, like the men were not The men thought that the booking stuff was beneath

them because they had the luxury of thinking that. Meanwhile, all of the sort of logistical emotional labor of getting these interviews was was placed on specific teams, gendered in a specific way. And then if any male newscaster would write this book, I don't know that this book would exist because I don't think these men are doing the soul searching that like we demand women in media to to go through. Well, I think we're asking everyone to do it. I think I hate to say that that

that many of these men sort of aren't in touch. Listen, this is a very different kind of book. You know a lot of journalists say, oh, these are the stories I covered. This was something that happened like and not to be I'll go I'll bet Middler on beaches on you guys. But it is very deep. I mean, it

is like digging deep into a lot of things. It's it's asking myself questions, asking societal questions, you know, kind of trying to come to terms with my family history, trying to help my daughters understand my late husband, their dad's passion for the Civil War in the nineties and how it doesn't square and you know, people are so black and white, good bad. And someone set me a quote by a guy who the director of Gray Gardens,

and it's tyranny is the deliberate removal of nuance. And I thought that that rang really true for me, because no one can seem to have these conversations in any kind of sophisticate, sophisticated or intelligent way they have to. It's so reductive and so um sort of extreme one way or another. And that's why it it disappoints me, but makes me feel sad for people who can't actually

have a nuanced conversation or appreciate nuance. Um. I think it's a real it's it's it's a sad commentary on our on our current culture, and we're being very serious here boys. But what I think is like also, it's like journalists know that way that news is consumed, and so it doesn't encourage them to look for nuance either. It almost feels like when you watch some of these shows when they have five minutes maybe to discuss a given topic, it's like a race to the black and white,

you know what I mean. It's sort of like a let me convince you how I'm correct and why this is this thing that I'm saying is the correct talking point. And it is very sort of you know, there's no time for the gray area. There's no time for the exploration because people, I think they think, and maybe they're right, people get bored. I think we're so used to and I've used this a lot that this engagement through enragement,

you know. I think it's this intersection of psychology and technology that we're seeing play out in the modern media landscape. You know, you've got to get a rise. I mean, this is not a big new news flash or anything, but that's you know, this is how the machine keeps churning, right, This is how the rabbit hole keeps being followed down. And and I think all these kind of things that

kind of that that hit you emotionally. Those are the things that keep you engaged and keep you on these platforms or keep you watching this this almost this, this rage ray porn in a weird way. But Memmily, you come from this school of journalism where you say this in the book, like you didn't ever want to expose any sort of partisan leaning or ski in your line of questioning, Like any time I think I think, I

think you like that. That is your style, that is, that is the Katie Kuric style, Like I feel like you you wouldn't. You would never get some ideological thing from your point of view out too much, even if it was interviewing Sarah Palin or even if it was interviewing George George Bush. You know, I did. I did

try to to do that. I mean, I think that that people watching the Today Show since I was probably more on the progressive side, you know, when I would ask the governor of Wyoming about conversion therapy and the kind of uh, you know, environment that creates for for people who are gay, or you know, questions along those lines. When I really challenged David Duke about comments he's made about you know, Jews, belong in the the ash been of society or whatever. He said. Um, I think by

virtue of just being a working woman. You know, I think there are some assumptions or some assumptions might have been made about me, but I do I have tried, or I did try throughout most of my career to to really be down the middle and to challenge both sides. But then, of course the Trump administration I think ushered in this new era of you know, it's become hackney

to say it's not left right, it's right wrong. But I do think it's it's come to this, and so's it would be very hard to be the kind of journalist that I was in this current day and age. You know, I think with what you were saying earlier about emotionality to news, I think that's what you were

doing on the Today Show. I'm jumping around a little bit, but I feel like on Today, the reason why you helped make it the number one daytime news show is that people were emotionally connected to like the like America's first Family. Yeah I write about that, you know, that was a little exaggerated. I think to create these para social relationships that viewers have with people they don't even know. Um, you know, I think we all had a good relationship.

But I think that they exploited that as well from you know, in terms of how they wanted to to promote the show. You know, I think people gravitated towards me early on because I was a different animal. I wasn't kind of the prototypical news anchor. I looked a little different, I acted a little different. I was a little more unpolished, and I think people gravitated to that

authenticity a little bit at the beginning. And I think I was pretty comfortable showing different aspects of my personality. I wasn't particularly buttoned up. I like to have fun or do say something funny or cheeky, um, and then I could do really serious things as well. But you know, it's hard to remember about back in I was a whole different kettle of fish in terms of what people

would expect in a female anchor person, lady whatever. It's kind of interesting to see that now the number one daytime personality is probably Kelly Clarkson, who, like like everyone in America fell in love with and it's like she we remember that, and so she's like nostalgic but also current. Um, and she's really not a journalist at all. She's a singer. Well, I feel like, well that's more of a talk show that is very different, different format, yeah, than than the

Today's Show which they had to go interview Dr Joe Biden. Though, I mean, like sometimes I'm surprised how much the crossover there is, especially as we see Donald Trump become president. You know what I mean it almost because like all these things that had different boxes a long time ago, those boxes are sort of like all now turned over on the floor and everything's kind of mixing. And I think I think you're right though. I think Kelly Is is sort of very comfortable in her own skin. She

kind of is who she is. She doesn't put on airs, and I think people appreciate that. Yeah, you know, it's um. In reading the book, like I just I think I read about fifteen times over the sentence swamp ass, and I just I was just like, thank God, now you've arrived at the time where you can finally discuss the

moments where you had swamp ass, like the vomiting. My daughter Ellie used that expression once when she called me she was worked in in a writer's room, and they made her go to like five different restaurants for their lunches, and it was a hundred and four or something in the valley. And she called me like one wanted sushi, one wanted barbecue, one wanted Um, what's that place? Uh that that it's a chain? And uh no, it's it's in It's in Santa Monica. You guys know what I'm

talking about. I always forget the name. Huh. What kind of food is like American cuisine? It's like all kinds of you know. No, it's kind of like an upscale chili's something something Huh, not Ruby Tuesdays. It's like that, it's Friday, Friday. No, not Friday's. It's it's on Santa Monica. It's no, keep keep keep guessing, you guys. It's it's like and I think they have like cheese, oh, cheese State Factory. That's why I walk in there and everyone

actually bows down. I'm the Prince of cheesecat Okay, sorry, Anyway, one guy wanted to call a cheesecate factory and he's always like, I want more bread. Anyway, she would call me and she would be like, Mom, it is a hundred and four in the valley. I've gone to, like, you know, twelve different restaurants for these dudes, and I have the worst case of swamp bass. And I was like, I was like, that is so funny. I've got to use that at some point and ergo, Matt swamp bass appearance.

You talk about squeezing your breast milk across the room, you're vomiting after being in an F sixteen, Like it goes there, and I wonder, like, no, I was thinking about it, you guys, I was thinking about I wrote a book as if I was with like really fun smart people sitting in a room drinking wine, and I was telling my story. Good, that's all we want. When when we pick up the book, I mean it does. It doesn't feel editorialized at all, because this is this

is the takeaway. And I think this is probably explaining the reaction a little bit, is that it's so it's it's much more honest than I expected, Sam, Like it's funny, Like we were just rattling off jokes, like hard jokes in the book. Like I think I think you were taking a hammer to like this whole image that you've cultivated your whole career, and I feel like that's intentional. Is that is that fair to say? Well, first of all,

I don't think I cultivated an image. I mean, I mean, no, no, no, and I'm not I'm not like spack in you doubt or whatever, what do you call it? No, no, no, no, no no. But I you know, listen, I think the point of the book is like, we all are so much more than the image people people um project upon us, or even the image that we project. And I just said, you know, I have a lot of different sides, So

I don't think I automatically destroyed the image bone. I think I just tried to expand who I was and let people kind of get to know me in a much deeper level, a much more a much more expansive level, and a level I mean like I really let people in. I let them in about you know, what was happening at the worst moment of my life when my husband

was diagnosed with cancer, and and really a lot of detail. Yeah, I am very honest about like how hard it was for me to be at CBS and what I believe was the hostile work environment that I walked into and our purposes were not aligned in any way. Um, and I was sort of brought in there to do something

that only less MOONBZ apparently wanted me to do. And you know, I'm very honest about you know, my sister and my parents and you know, great moments of accomplishment that I'm really proud of and moments that like I sucked at and what that was like, like what it really felt like inside to go through it all. And and so I feel like I didn't want to to change the image people had. I just wanted them to

get to know me better. Was there any difficulty process wise in terms of like putting it down on paper, like really reconceptualizing all these difficult memories into this memoir form. Not really, you know, it was really it was really helpful. Actually, you know, I think every buddy has delayed grief, you know, and I think writing about Jay, you know, first of all, it was really fun to write about how we met. Yeah, I love that you're a top, by the way, what's

that mean? Well, so in in in gay sexual relations and there's a bottom, you are a top. I would say, you you know what you want, and you go for it and go for it. And I'm very assertive and I'm very intentional top behavior. Okay, all right, well good, thank you. You can tell people that. You can tell people that. All right, that'll be for my next book, going there again or going there. She's going there again. So that was me going there and telling you that, Yeah,

thank you, thank you. I knew kind of I know never never mind, I don't tell no. I I knew the concept. I just didn't know the personality traits necessarily that went with the concept they're doing. They don't always. But I all of a sudden, I was reading the book and I'm like, I texted Bow and I'm like, you know, like she is really. I was like, I think I was surprised by like you really, And I don't know why I was surprised about it, but like,

your sexuality really comes through in the book. Well, you know my cousin. This is funny, you guys. My cousin, Henry. He lives in Birmingham, Alabama. He's a lawyer. I love him. He is the deepest, like serious Southern accent. And I said, Henry. I was talking to him because he my mom was his cousin, and I was talking to them about my mom's Jewishness and Judaism and sort of kind of trying to understand that period of time why my mom was not well, maybe secretive, but also just just it didn't

seem to be a big part of her life obviously, right. Well, I don't know, you know, he said, It's interesting, Matt, He said, we were never ashamed. It just wasn't a huge part of our identity. They were German Jews. They came over in the eighteen fifties, I believe, and settled in the South. They were in the retail business. And I said, Henry, why do you think my mom didn't talk more about about that, and or why didn't she? He said, well, we were never you know, we were

super reformed. We were citizens first and and Jews second. And they they he said, this was a time when really people wanted to assimilate. Um, at least, he said, that's what he was saying. I'd like to read more and learn more about that, but um, you know that again was another interesting aspect of the book. You know, And I think about my mom, which she like my parents have both both died, and I've been wondering, gosh,

would my parents be proud of this book? They would yes, because you come across as such a dynamic, intelligent, like accomplished person. And I think that that probably comes your your questioning of that when after I asked, the sexuality question probably comes from again this thing of like us. It's like a conservative thing that that comes from somewhere else that's not within us. Because what what's within you is your sexuality and is all the parts of who

you are. And that's what I appreciate that. That's what I appreciate about the book so much, is that all the parts of who you are come through in it, because I actually think our society would be a lot more forgiving and upset accepting if we all would be honest about all parts of ourselves, if we forgot to tell you what I why I brought up Henry, my cousin. He read the book and he goes, Katie, she am, you've seen more sex than a policeman's flashlight for you.

I was like Henry in that funny I guess when they are looking in cars when when people are working right that I'd never I'd never heard that expression. It made me laugh. I just love that. Um. The epilogue was just this letter from your three years after. I think, wasn't it so? I mean, my dad was a beautiful writer. I think you could tell in that letter. UM. You know, I love the use of the word rectitude in that letter.

UM that that letter always makes me cry because it was so beautiful, and I think it encapsulates how loving and present and they're my parents were for me my entire life, and I feel I feel so blessed. And you know, I really did write this for my daughter's you guys first and four most um, you know, and I when I wrote it, I was like, some people might be interested in this. I don't know if if that many people, some people who might have watched me on the Today Show may be interested in this, um.

But I had no idea it was going to be considered that provocative. I was really surprised by that. I mean, it was provocative because it was distorted, but I've been surprised at the level of intense feeling about it. And I'm really interested when people like you guys actually read the book. UM. I'm kind of waiting to see how how those people feel about it, because I didn't write it for these tabloid you know, reporters who are trying

to get clicks. I wrote it for thoughtful people who are kind of interested in pulling the curtain away from from the news business and who are just want to kind of think about where we are as a society and some of the changes that have happened over the last several decades. I mean, I feel like, structurally, you do something really incredible in this book in terms of balancing out the Katie Kurrent career story and all the

ups and downs. But then I think you also just really and then I think you do uphold these consistent pillars of like dating, grief, death, cultural changes. And then I think it's pretty incredible that you end the book on Carrie finding out about her father's you know, just a civil war, just just just his his relationship with just a specific time. You know. I'm very proud to say my daughters are both very intelligent and wonderful, I mean,

such fine people, first of all. But Carrie really explored this and really went deep when she was at Stanford and she did a lot of original research in Montgomery. She really kind of found out about our family tree. She interviewed the ancestors of slaves, uh, the descendants of slaves rather in you Fall, Alabama, where some of my dad's family settled early on when they came from from France. And Um, she is really extremely intellectual and she wrote

this very beautiful thesis. She won a big award for it at Stanford. I was so proud of her. I was inspired by her work to talk about that and to you know, Brian Stevenson is one of my personal heroes. And I don't know, you guys have to have him. He started the Equal Justice Initiative. You probably know him. He wrote Just Mercy. He is this just incredible, incredible civil rights lawyer who I could listen to him all day.

But anyway, when I did that hour for National Geographic on Confederate statues and iconography, he talked a lot about the importance of confronting and acknowledging the past and how countries like Germany and Rwanda are so much better off because they have admitted their mistakes. They have looked at it, looked at the past, and they want to to make sure it doesn't happen again. They want to acknowledge it

because without that you can't really move forward. And so um, I was, I was really you know, that's something I could have kept out. It's mortifying, it's you know, hugely embarrassing. Some of my my family tree, as I say, was blighted with racist you know, some of the things even

someone as close as my paternal grandmother did. But I got a lot of courage from Carrie's thesis and from her curiosity and um enthusiastic not enthusiasm, curiosity and interest and really understanding the past and squaring you know, Jay was an incredible person, and you know she is actually very forgiving that he was kind of into Civil War reenacting because there was this this resurgence of interest in the Civil War with ken Burns series Glory Confederates in

the Addicts in the nineties, and I think he just thought riding horses, he loved military history. Um, he just I think thought it was a fun pastime to be with people from all different walks of life. And you know, as I say in the book, he never got to really, you know, think about more deeply about sort of what

that what that symbolized. And it was actually, um, as you guys know, a much more recent recognition of all of this Lost Cause narrative and all of kind of the civil war mythology that has had such a hold on our country for so long, and that happened, you know, probably in a in a very palpable way, fifteen years

after Jay died at least. I feel like another theme in the book is this thing that you just mentioned, which is squaring people against things that they've done, interests that they've had, scoring that against the people that you know them to be, whether it's Jay, whether it's your father, whether it's I mean, I guess your mother in that way in terms of like the Judaism of it all, and then and then and then absolutely with Matt or the way you kind of sprinkle that from the beginning

of the book and then it all comes to a head in the end. Um, And I just I feel like you must have come to some conclusion about like how people are. What do you think your conclusion on that is? I think I learned you guys that that people are complicated. They are, Um, they're the products that they're they're conditioning their cultural conditioning their environment sort of the thinking of the time. But they're also you know,

we're all trying to figure it out. And um, you know, I I'm really interested in understanding what makes someone the way they are. You know, I'm less interested in judging someone. I'm interested in what happened to them or what created this thing that that made them do what they did. I obviously can say how I feel, and can can criticize someone's behavior if it hurts other people. But I try. I I think I could have been a good psychologist because I really try to get to the root of

of what someone's doing in their behavior. But I guess, I guess it's that that people are complicated, um, and that they're not all good or all bad. I think I even write about that. I think I think in some cases it's more extreme than others, this duality that exists. Um. But that's sort of what I would say to answer that question. Do you buy any chance watch The Morning Show?

I actually do. I'm friendly with Julianna Margali's Yeah, yeah, And I actually started watching it a few months ago and then I stopped because I had a lot going on, and I just picked it up again, and I think it's really interesting and I think they do what they

do really well. Is every character like has their stuff right, you know, whether Chip feels like he shouldn't be back there or I guess it's Daniel feels so marginalized and frustrated, and clearly the Rees character I forget her name with Radley Jackson, she's like, you know, rough around the edges and trying to figure it out and navigate her sexuality. Now. Yeah, and and and Jennifer Aniston is just you know, trying to hold up this facade. I mean, they're all they're

all just kind of trying to figure it out. And I think they reveal their own sort of psychic wounds and um, and I find that really interesting. But that has to be a little surrey to watch from your perspective because the first and and this is where I guess my question lies, is the first season sort of rolls out a situation that really closely mirrors, if not directly, based on the Matt Lour fire and everything that went

on with that. Yeah. So so then we have Jennifer Aniston essentially playing a stand in for you, like an avatar for you or Savannah or whoever sits next to him in that chair. So when you watch that, is it clear? Is it clear to you? And then does it become fun for you? Because you're like, oh, this is just purely fiction. Like I am, I'm laughing while I'm drinking my glass of wine watching this or does

any part of it make you cringe a little bit? No, I don't think it makes me cringe because I think I think I was gone in two thousand six, and

I think a lot of these issues. And you know, it's interesting because I do write a lot in the book about I thought that was kind of powerful, that dinner I had with me before this happened, and um, he seems nervous, like yeah, yeah, you know, the circumstances are so so different, and I believe in the show, I guess I get the impression that they actually were involved in some way, uh, sexually involved, right, the Jennifer Aniston character, they're now they're now sort of but even

in the first season they kind of alluded to that it was unclear whether or not she was using that, whether it was true or not against him to maintain power at the show, And now it's sort of coming out in the second season that probably did happen several times, but it always a gray area, right, right, So obviously they take a lot of artistic license. Um, but um, you know, I thought I thought they were actually very

good at getting some totally getting some things right. This this you know when he comes to I guess it was the party celebrating his anniversary or something or a birthday party that he came in the studio and you could see he was like beloved. And then this kind of weird other side when he's on location in Las Vegas and you know how he he's sort of lord people um in a pretty obviously gross inappropriate Yeah, in

predatory and gross in inappropriate way. So, I mean, I find it interesting and and I think with the second season, they're dealing with so many issues that I didn't really deal with when I was at the Today Show, issues that are very of the moment, you know, issues about diversity and the Stella character saying, you know, I'm window dressing basically. And I think a lot of these issues that workplaces all over the country are kind of grappling

with right representation and and all that. And I find I think that's really interesting. Yeah, well, I just I had to ask if you watched it, because I feel I feel like if if it were in reading the book, I felt I felt in you describing yourself throughout I was like, Wow, I'm really similar. I felt very similar

to you in a lot of ways. And so then I was thinking, like, when I asked you that question, I didn't know if you'd be like, no, I don't watch it because I know if they if there was a show that purported to be about something, I was like, it was if it was like dressing up as something I had done, I would have to watch it. Yeah, you know, I've heard. I think Jennifer Aniston has said, uh, she's sort of models her character after Diane Sawyer. I think,

I think, but I don't know that. I was going to say, I think it's an amalgam I do or a Malcolm how do you say that amathem? What's amalgamation something I know, but it's when do you use amalgamation? And when do you use amalgam? I think it's that. I think it's amalgam in this case, an amalgamation of of something. And then I don't know. I don't know. That's a good question where the words were done. I

love words. An amalgamation implies like an action, like the act of amalgamating, and so I feel like we can use amalgam here, and I think you're no. I think no. I think a lot of people miss misuse amalgamation when they when amalgam is just fine? Is that the ation? Certainly I would be the person misusing it. So that's

that feels right. We want to ask you what we ask every single one of our guests, which is sort of the big question of lost culture, which is, Katie Kuric, what was the culture that made you say culture was for you? What was the culture that so they didn't so, Jared, you're supposed to run through this with Katie. Okay, I know you mentioned it, but I think I misunderstood. So here's here's what it was briefed. So yeah, sure, So

here's what it is. It's the culture that made you say cultures for me, Like when you're growing up and you see something in pop culture, in film, television, music, and it could be a surrounding thing just the culture around you that you grew up and were raised in. What made you become the person that you are? I mean, of course, it's many different things. You know the answer to this if no earlier? Come on, I'm really doing

a test. If you read this we read before you nothing day and suddenly make it all seem worth while, yes, girl, and you should know it. Yeah, with each little step, in every movement, you show it. No no, no, no, no no no no. You love us all around. No need to fake it. You can have the world. Why don't you take it? You're gonna make it. You have a nice little voice there than we take it on

the road. Um. But yeah, that's that makes a lot of sense to me, and also sort of surreal how you were able to execute that, like in terms of your career path. Well, you know, I think and as I as I write, she just Mary Richard just made people my age, you know, remember fellas, I'm sixty four, born in ninety seven, and you know, women were just miraculously really entering the workforce like my generation give or take, you know, years older. Um, and obviously you're younger, but

in very significant numbers. And I had a real switch with the feminist movement and uh, Women's Live as they called it back then in the seventies and Mary Tyler Moore where it was like, oh wait, I all everybody in my neighborhoods ah stay at home mom as housewife. Everybody's I see on TV is pretty much you know, a housewife Samantha Stevens on Bewitched, and you know shows like that, I do. And then suddenly I do remember watching Julia with Diane Carroll Carrol who played h a

single mom. Uh and and that was cool. But Mary Tyler Moore was like, yeah, like she got in her car and she's driving to Minneapolis. She's a single woman.

She didn't get married right out of college, which a lot of women older than I were doing, my my sisters, and I was like, damn, I I want to do that right, And isn't it meaningful that I think the first scene in the pilot episode is her like looking at an apartment, at the apartment that she moves into, just as just like single working gal, just like here to look at the place, like that's not like a that's not necessarily a housewife setting environment situation, you know,

right right? I was thinking there are other there were other shows like that. I remember, like Room two twenty two with Karen Valentine and I remember she was a teacher, and uh. You know, it's funny how much television at least I think, because I must have watched too much of it, But it's funny how it really shapes who you can be and what the possibilities are, and I

think and moves the culture. So um yeah, even more than that, I feel like, and this is why you must understand how important you are is that television I think helps us shape the way we understand things. It's already or stand twice in the same sentence. But I feel like you were able to give clarity to things,

and you still do. But like from the beginning, it was this thing of like, well, I understand what's going on because because of the way that it's being sort of communicated to me through this daytime show, evening show, syndicated talk show, whatever. Well, you know, you have to kind of apply your own sensibilities and your own you.

You you're a vessel, really right, your information in, information out, and that gets processed and distilled and synthesized by by you and obviously a lot of other people in the news organization, you know. So that's a big, huge responsibility, and you don't always get it right. You try, you try to have the values that you hope are are worthy of aspiring to write and and you do. You try to to do the best you can and to reflect.

But you know, I talk a lot about how how that prison was sometimes clouded, right, you know the way we covered Rodney King, Uh that that the way you know the way I raised that kind of missing white woman syndrome in the book before this whole Gabby Petito, you know, the conversation started about you know why, right, why is it so much coverage? And what about so many other young women who disappear who never ever get

really mentioned in the news media. So um, I'm I'm very I think I'm pretty self critical of sort of when when my prism could have been sharper um and where the whole business I think the business, uh, the prism of the whole business could have been sharper Well.

I think you're you're being critical of the system while also being very honest and self critical about your positioning in that system, which is it's And then it gets really weird and nuanced to think about the individual versus the collective sort of you know, way of thinking about it. And I feel like you, more than a lot of

people journalists are probably better at not apologizing. I just think you're I think you do a better job of doing the actual soul searching that I will say the men don't do specifically, the way that Matt Lauer weeks later came back saying all of these relationships are consensual just didn't feed. It didn't seem like he was remorseful at all about the accusations. I mean, and that he thinks of you as someone who betrayed him. And it's very telling. Yeah, the way that he responded to all

of it. I just think I'm in this conversation there is a lot of i'll say nuance to be like brought into in terms of thinking about like the way everyone at these shows our positioned to like, I don't know, like really not be not be sure of what their resources are if if you know, I think you ask like yourself. And Curry reported an incident to management because someone had approached her, a stafford had approached her with this and then you ask yourself, I wonder why no

one came to me. And I even asked Addie, you know, I asked her and I said, would you have ever come to me? And I think part of the part of the pathology was this sort of um secret the secret nature of these relationships that was actually used to silence and manipulate people and That is interesting too, that there's shame built in and shame. Yeah, for her to come to you would be just would would would have would mean her fully confronting that shame in some way

to go to you as his co anchor. I mean, I don't know, it's it's it's very interesting. I just wanted to return to the Mary telling More thing for a second. Yes, I'm sorry you. You must have met her many times, I did. Did you get to tell her that this was true of her impact on you? Yes, she must have had so many women, probably extreme meaningful to hear it come from you. Oh listen, I felt very very dwarfed in her presence. I mean, she's talked

about a complicated person. You know. Again, I think her son committed suicide. She um, you know, I think she was just so much more layered and really really interesting. I didn't know her well, but just from everything I read, And it's very easy to become an archetype, you know, especially on television, right, very very easy to become an archetype. And she would certainly understand that. The last time I saw her, she was quite ill and quite frail, and

it made me really sad. But there was something about her that was just so winsome and appealing and charming and and fun to watch. Um. But yes, I shared with her many times and and then you know, I was thinking about it because as I was preparing for my tour, we did kind of this Greatest Hits reel of people and it's just amazing the people I've met. I mean that to me, like for the ultimate extrovert who's very curious about the world and truly enjoys people

Like how lucky I am this job. You know, I was looking like you know, Barbara streisand fixed my hair like she fixed hubbles in the way we were. I got to I got to talk to you know, Betty White. We went to the Central Park Zoo together. I mean, the list goes on and on and on, and you know, just to be able to meet them and have fun with them and get to know them a little bit, you know. Never I don't I don't really hang out

with celebrities. That's not that's not my jam. But to to really too, I mean I have a few few well known friends, but you know, to just to be able to be kind of talking to these people is fun. And so you know, I can't believe Michael Jackson asked you out. I can't believe that either. He kind of did. He did it through an intermediary rabbi. That was his way. Rabbi Shmurely asked you as a proxy for people who have yet to the book. It's out now by the

release of this episode. But I mean, Rabbi Schmolly, Neil Simon, all of this king come on now, I mean, I mean that was their varying degrees of mortifying that absolutely, But and I also love that you just spilled the t about it too, Like I love that you called John Kasy a tool, like you really called he's an asshole. You can see it right through him. I think John Kasi is probably a pretty nice guy, but you got to admit what he did was very tulish, toolish. You

asked you the same question. He was trying to make you feel small and bad, and that's not a good guy.

That then, please, you can see right through him. And then what with the whole two thousand sixteen of it all where it was sort of just him and Trump because he was the last one, if you remember, he was like sort of the last one that was not him um involved in running for the for the GOP nomination, Like you could kind of see like it was so clearly it was almost like dude, just it's they're going Trump, like,

get the funk out of the way. And then when he came back, I was like, I think Governor Kay had had a hard time reading social cues. That's how I would put it. Just that's a very diplomatic way of putting it. Yeah, after calling him a tool, I feel like you need to be too diplomatic with him. This is something, This is something I wanted to ask you though, because a couple of times I was reading the book and there are sentences like that and little

little little um, but how about the man we should say? Right, yes, thank you? Yes. That seems not to be that interesting to people though, right interesting? I wonder why? Right? Because how many times do you read it through before it goes final to final print, and like you have to imagine that like when it's there and it's going out, you, as the person who's writing it, I want to make sure that every word is getting it across correctly so that no one can even though they're going to like

interpret it in some stupid way. Yeah, I mean many, many, many times. By that point, I was a in I was like, hey, I'm just gonna be honest. You know. I said to my nephew, who I love, the one who was our Manny Jeff, he is hot. You said he had trouble bringing hookups? No, No, I know, I don't. Did I say that? Whenever? Now he was like, would you like to come back to my house, my place and do a puzzle because he lived, he lived in our playroom. And uh, he's great. He's a director. He's

directing a big Netflix movie in Atlanta right now. He's adorable. He's my sister Emily's youngest son, my sister who who died of pancretic cancer. And he and I have always have this very special relationship. And I wrote him and I said, hey, you've read my book. Was it was it like, did I go too far or anything? And he said, I loved your book so much because it was so candid. That is one of the best books I've ever read. And I said, well, you're my nephew,

of course you're going to say that. But he said, no, that's what really makes it good. It was you being truthful and honest and putting it out there in in the best way possible. So he's he is hot, though I don't know. I don't know how to describe it. He just really read us hot on the page. I'm like, yes, there's something about this Jeff. And I was thinking about him at Disneyland, like like with your daughters. And I'm like,

is Jeff gang too? Is he's single? Because I was interested on the page, I'll tell him, but he's straight. And you know any really cute women, I don't. I don't, I know, not a one none. He's awesome. Though I love Jeff. We love Jeff too. Katie, What are you most excited for with the tour? You know, I think I'm just excited and and bo when you you get to experience this with sn L. I think I'm excited to be This sounds so cheese and I'm kind of

saying it jokingly in community who says that? But you know, I'm I'm excited to be around like living, breathing people. I'm excited. I'm excited to tell my story on my terms. Um. I'm excited about all the guests, really interesting, cool guests that are that are going to be a part of it. I loved Tan France. He's going to be in Boston. Um, I'm really excited about Chloe and Chloe and Melissa are going to be in New York. Eina Garten is going to be in Atlanta, Jenn Gardner is going to be

in l A. And John Gardner. Yeah, she's so great. I mean she's she's such a special person. She dates, Yeah, doesn't she Like thirteen going on thirty is underrated? People need to rewatch that. And in fact, I was telling Adriana who works with me, that we've got to do a clip of her doing the thriller dance your friend Michael, Yeah, yes, exactly. And Chance the rapper, it's just fun. That is awesome.

And um, Nashville Brad Paisley, who I just saw it last night at the Michael J. Fox Foundation and his beautiful wife Kim Um and they're incredible people. Wow, you know, I need to listen to more country music. Brad Paisley. He is such a talent, you guys. I mean he's amazing and okay, I mean just watching and played the guitar and he did something, uh the Marshall Tucker Band.

Can't you see? He just kind of did it because someone said they were going to donate fifty dollars to the Michael J. Fox Foundation if he played this song. He had never played it before, and he just like crushed it. Some people imagine can you imagine being that you tell yourself to play piano by ear, which is another thing that I really loved. Well, you don't really, Yeah, I mean I used to just sit down. I took piano for ten years, but I played just by ear

everything in the case. Yeah, like Irving Berlin. I haven't played lately. But but but Bratt, I mean, Brat Paisley. Wouldn't it be if you had a superpower? You guys, what would it be? I mean that sounds pretty good learning a song within what like five minutes? Yeah, I don't. I think he just kind of like, I don't know how he did it. I got to talk to him

when I'm in Nashville. But I wish I could. I wish I could just sing beat like really, really, wouldn't that be cool to have just an incredible voice like Kristin Chenna with or something. Ask Matt, Matt's got a pretty good one. Yeah, I could tell Matt, do you do any I mean, did you ever want to be a singer? I sorted them one. UM, I'm actually actually by the way for for the readers, UM, thank you, because the tour did sell out. So have you heard

a Christmas I'm coming? I'm going all around the country. Oh my gosh, all eleven of my dates sold out. You guys than I should have known this, I guess. So it's sort of an ironic original Christmas album that I that I wrote when I was about four years ago. I kind of wanted I saw Mariah Carry and she was going she of course, she's the Queen of Christmas. She had something to do every year, and I was like, I want a comedy version of that, and so I

wrote with my musical director, Henry. We did an entire original Christmas album. Every song is fantastic and we do it every year. So where are you performing in New York Joe's Pub? I would love to compute to it. When when is it? I can buy a ticket, Matt when it's sold out, But it's December Joe's Pub, and then we're doing the Bellhouse in Brooklyn. But if that's so exciting, thank you. It's a blast. I think if

I if if I could have a superpower. It sounds crazy, but honestly, I think I was maybe I was a little emo after reading your book, but I think I would want to just have me and everyone I love

live forever, honestly literally. But then I also was very touched by something that your mom said, which I think she probably said it's a joke, but it actually made me feel better, which was, well, you know, if we all live forever, get pretty crowded down here, it kind of reminds you of like that that's part of life, and you know, it was sort of like a nice

way to put it. And I also, you know, not to get not to get too serious, but you know, I just went on a family vacation and I got back from it and I had such a great time. And then in reading your book, when you talked about like not wasting those moments and how you know, if you had to regret it was like lingering over coffee with your producer at one time so that you didn't

spend those like extra minutes with your mother. And I just thought that that was such a great illustration and really powerful, and um, I think the book is so great for so many reasons. And I think you really do get to know you better. And I think it also, you know, does dive into a lot of tough topics because you, in being who you are like have have been through so many of these things that we that

are now cultural topics for us. But I also think the book is also a reminder, and it's a reminder that not everyone, no one is going to be here forever, that we're not going to be here forever. And I just I really wanted to say thank you for that because it's I think a lot of people are going to get a lot from it. Thanks. I know I did. I had to put it down a couple of times and just take a lap beautifully, beautifully, beautifully beautifully with that,

let's move on. I don't think so, honey, and the rollicking sixties second segment that the podcast is famous for, you know, Katie, the podcast has received critical acclaim. I know it has, and that's why I that's why I reached out and exhausted that i'd be on it. Well,

I'm I'm so happy the three pressed. You guys are so nice and you're very fun to talk to because you're thoughtful, right, it's hard to have a conversation with people if they're not kind of interested, because that's what makes people interesting and that they don't think about things right. So this has been really fun for me, it's been fun for us. This is a show that's all about just interest in general. All just we asked people what they were interested in, what they're interested in now, and

I that's a beautiful way of putting it. Is that an expression that that that makes people interesting? That's that's that you can quote me on that, but cure that's original observation by MOA. What rule of culture? Maybe that'll make it like quotes about people or you know, interest, and then when you google it it'll be like interested people make interesting people. That's actually title of app title of that title of episode. It's a rule of culture

a number one. Interested people make for interesting people. We just gotta lock it in by saying at the same time, okay, this is our one a minute segment where we take one minute to do against something in culture, and we'll go in the usual order, which is Matt first, I kind of was so I'm so fixated on the guests and the guest book that I didn't actually have one. But then in the beginning of the episode, I came up with one again because then I would never return

to it because I don't think so, honey. I'm so excited this is Matt Rodgers. I don't think so, honey. As time starts now, I don't think so, honey. This thing of Megan McCain on Watch What Happens Live? Why why does she have an SNL letterman's jacket. It's like she's in like the Nine Times Club at this goddamn show. And you're gonna have the goal bookers. I'm not talking to you, Andy, and I don't think that you're responsible

for the booking. But on a Wednesday night, on this the second episode of the Beverly Hills Housewives Reunion, where we dive into the cultural topic of the year, Erica Jane and her divorce, and you're gonna have Megan McCain and god knows whoever se Cup is, who never has a goddamn thing to say to get it waxed poetic about the housewives. I don't care what they say. And then they have the goal to go in on my girl Katie Kirk and say they hate the book, you

better go fix yourself. And I think it's really funny that you're like, we support women when no. Number one talking point about your book, Megan McCain is how awful everyone at the View is. Give me a fucking break. You couldn't help to keep talking about this and of course no one can tell their truth, but you get lost.

I don't think that's one minute. Um. She really threw U s and elender the best too, and that and athetic she's pathetic, she said, you know, she's like, it's that thing when S and L sketches become real life that people started to think that I was entitled. I was like, no, it didn't taken that well. It's like it's like what Katie said about Sarah Pale and all she gotta do is talk. Just let her talk and

you'll see exactly how entitled she is. And I you know, it's been kind of inescapable, like the media thing with her too right now, because you know she's out there also hawking her kind of I'm escaping and I'm found the hatch. I'm gone, I'm not really. I wish I could find the hatch easier because she really was like sort of like a media firestorm there for a few days when she was like the view was a toxic work environment. Yet like fucking get an original SoundBite, first

of all. And another thing is just like she really like with the snl of it all, Like the day after that happened, she was like highest honor and all the lad She was so fucking chipper about it. She just drives off the negativity and thrives off the victim narrative. And for her to think that she is the victim and and her life is just pathetic. And I really really really resented her talking about your book the way that she did, especially after reading the book, because of

how much have a flattened assessment of it. And I can't believe she's on Watch what Happens Live more than Andy Cohen, and our guest agrees, I'm listening, but she's just she's choosing joy right now. She's choosing joy, as he says, and that is the right choice. And I don't think I have a thing to rag about. Is that bad? Can you guys excuse me from this exercise? Would you get back? You don't have to Here's the thing. You don't have to have to do anything you don't

want to do. But I think and while Bowen is doing his maybe I think I pitched enough actually in this podcast, right, come on, if you would do us the honor of listening to mine, mine, Mine is gonna be pretty ribald r bald. See two words already two words. In the episode of of you Know, I had to look. I had to look up a couple of words because I knew, I knew inherently what they were, but I wanted to be sure. I had to look up pugil pugilistic, and I thought that was a beautiful distraction of what

Bill O'Reilly is. And then I knew what bon vivant was, but I was just curious about what the definition of it was. And then I it was confirmed for me, and I loved it. And I think someone who you are, someone who lives with Gusto and who loves loves life. I just loved. I love that bonivon and I just I'm actually looking up ryebald to make sure that I'm sure you're no, I'm looking. There was another one too.

I don't know. Okay, Google is saying ribbalds, but I know, hey, but I think the second definition is with a long eye. So I think either is acceptable. So I'd like to apologize Bowen for correcting ribbled, which sounds like dribble. That's why ribald sounds a little better to me. Will you find out h is certainly the more pleasing, seems more correct, but maybe that's the British pronunciation. I'm not sure. I was going to find that at math and turned towards

as well. Yeah, I was horrible if I never met a number I liked, never met a word I didn't love. But there you are, my people, exactly I felt. You know what my favorite word was when I was little, nonchalant? Nonchalant that's a good word. I like it, very French. The other word that people use incorrectly all the time is rust non lust. I knew you were going to say that. Why did you know that? How did you know? I actually knew too. It was because it's like one

of those weird ones. It's one of those weird ones. It's the definition is different than what it sounds as if it were. Ye're angry means you're very stirred and shape agitated, I think, isn't it? And nonplus like when people it sounds like they should be like, I don't know, I'm kind of non People think it means it means you're unfazed, but that's not correct that this can be your I don't think so, honey, Katie. Okay, but I can. I can go really quickly on mine, and then they

have I have an I don't. I don't think so, honey. But it might not be as long as here's the thing. Remember when I said you don't have to do it, actually do part of It's part of the briefing. It's part of the contract. And this is this whole thing is a verbal contract binding. I'm sorry, but they're binding. Alright. So Boon Yang, first you and you do have to do one. You are we're gonna get into a big fight my sister. And this is this is not like

the Today's show. Me and you are a real family. Okay, okay, so listen, Boon Yang. This is I don't think so, honey. I don't think so, honey. The marketing behind dude wipes, for those who are unfamiliar, these are, you know, flushable wipes for men quote unquote, when we all know that it is actually being purchased by queer man game and anyone who engages in anal sax. It's just okay sitting for people sitting on my bedroom. There's no such thing as assist het man who is using these to keep

a clean butt. They're gonna go for the toshi, They're

gonna go for the bid day seconds. I don't have such plumbing in my apartment, or I just don't want to think about that, So I'm just relying on the dude webs, which not environmentally conscious of me, I know, But I just something really gets to me about the way these are marketed as if they're marketed to like a fraternity brother, when I know for a fact that it seems only the bottoms in the world, like myself, we're using it to actually feel like they can walk

into a sexual situation with some confidence and not any self consciouness about the session. So I need the marketing around dude wipes to change. Just call them something with the F word, the other F word. That's that's where They're not going to be called fact wipes, okay, And I want them to be. Katie, you don't have to worry about this because you're a woman and the top. But the thing is that like there are these, there are these you know, these these these flushable wipes that

we need to sort of keep the area okay. And so that's what bone is. I don't think someone honeying that the fact that they're calling them dude wipes. Just call them white white. They have to be male, like the like the the lady pen, like the pink pen, the Bick for women or whatever. It's stupid gender everything.

But I don't know. Well, there's there's there's Pure for Men, which is a company that sells fiber supplements and they also make their own line of flashable white and I used to buy them, but it's more convenient and they ship faster if I buy the dude wipes. So I've been buying the dude wipes. I followed this Instagram page which is like men of Soccer, and it's like, you know, it's like it's like they have the most amazing asses

in the world. And so sometimes I'm scrolling and I'm looking at them and I'm like, yeah, but let's not pretend that's like you can't even like really get excited about anything here because straight men's butts are the most disgusting thing in the world. They don't think the ultimate swamp ass the ultimates. That's what I'm saying, like swamp ass. I mean, come on, this is like the central Okay, I think it's time for Katie. Do not let Katie respond to this like let us do in her own book. Yeah,

you thought you went there. No, then you came to last college and we were going there. Um, all right, it's time and then and then and then we'll let you go. Okay, good because I gotta go. Guys, I love you, but don't you have stuff to do? We have stuff? Okay, sorry, sorry, Okay, what do I say, Honey? I don't think. I don't think the thing put on the place is Katie Kuris. I don't think so, honey. I can't believe I'm saying this and our time starts now.

I don't think so, honey. I think you need to be able to use a few sentences without saying like like like like like like can't you speak English? Didn't you? I mean, come from talking on people no the time you guys. I don't know. Maybe it's something for these this younger generation, but you guys, just pause because if you are thinking about something, don't use like as a crutch.

I used to use you know as a crutch. But now every person, highly educated individuals, I want to say, they sometimes use like forty five times in a one minute conversation. I can't deal with it. Stop it. Listen to yourself, record yourself. Can't your likes and get rid of them? People Katie say, I don't think so, honey, one more time. I don't think so, honey. There and now you know what's going to quit. I don't like think so like, honey, that's not how it goes. It goes.

I don't think so, honey. Yes it does. Of the rest and the neck as well. Can I say, I'm going to listen back to this now. When I realized how many times I've said like, because that just didn't think you guys did it? No, no, and and and even my my daughter, who is so smart, she sometimes falls back on the like thing. And I want to say, hey, don't say like so much, but then she'll get mad at me. I have a question. Have you liberated yourself from you know as a filler word for the most part,

I have How did you do that? I don't know. I think I just got older and smarter. There you go, so with time, With time, my new my new crutch is kind of that's kind of honestly, and sometimes at the end of a sentence, you know, I need affirmation. You know a lot of my transitions whenever I listened back to the spredits, a lot of my like a lot of the things I say to transition into sentences are are the same thing. And the readers of the podcast you know what I'm talking about. And I refused

to say it now, but it is. It's interesting. And you know, Janine Garoffalo did the same. I don't think so, honey, she did. She did. I love her. You guys have that in common. We love her too. Wow. What a wonderful episode, Katie, Thank you so much for joining us. No, thank you all for having me. I really appreciated the conversation. And um, you know I would be friends with both of you if we could. We're all friends. You're coming to my shows, Okay, I am coming to the show.

I'm gonna I'm gonna reach out to everybody. Okay, do you run? Do you really run? Your social media? Is that you? But I do. I do a lot of it, but I do have help. My uh my social media person is Julia Lewis. She does a lot of it. Adriana Fasio, who works with me and really helped me

write this book. She did her her her senior thesis on me at Notre Dame and interview for her thesis she um and during the interview we were talking and she grew up watching the Today Show and she was writing about the changing perceptions of femininity and morning television and broadcast journalism. And so when she was interviewing me, I said, Adriana, you know so much about me, do

you want to help me work on this book? And so she came to work work with me after she graduated from UH Notre Dame and and she's she's been great and she's sort of my right hand person. And I want to mention Lucy Kalin. She was the former editor of OH magazine. Lucy helped me tremendously. If you saw the acknowledgements, I don't think you had to go because well you I think you guys have the A R C S. I don't know if Matt you have the hardcover, so I have the PDF. So you had

the acknowledgement. So Lucy is an amazing seeing person. Um, she is an amazing writer. So she was incredibly helpful, and I couldn't have done it without Lucy and Atriana by my side. And you know what's really nice, You guys, we worked on this for three years and we all we all really love each other and don't care about each other, and it was it was obviously an incredible bonding experience. But I feel I feel very close and

grateful to both of them. Well, we think then we love everybody at Casey M. Tell your listeners to sign up for my newsletter if they can wake up, call sign up readers. Sign up, you get you get a newsletter and you get Katie's recommendations picks like it's like music, you're listening to it. Yeah, we interview a lot of interesting people. We try to break down the news of the day, and you know, and give up. You know,

I give you and give you information you need. And also tell your listeners that we would love to see them in any of the cities I'm visiting starting October in Boston, Okay, Boston, New York, San Francisco, l A, Nasty, Atlanta, Dallas. He's joining me in Philadelphia. Oh that's perfect. Well, the book is going there. It's out now. It's incredible and it's written by our amazing guest Katie Kirk. Thank you

so so much, I love you. And we end every episode with a song and it's a short one and it's the end of the Mary Teller More theme song. Here we go, Bo, You're gonna make it after all, one more time after bye, I stop to without it.