"Fairy Drag Queen Guinea Pig" (w/ Chappell Roan)

Look Marier, Oh, I see you, my own my Bowen. Look over there is that culture. Yes, goodness, we lost culture, ding Dong, ding Dong.

Lost culturistas calling was that the first time we were ever out of sync? Boats well, honestly, boats very well. You know what I was distracted thinking about.

Uh huh. I'm surrounded by tops. We've got service tops, camera tops, publicist top.

You know, can I reveal something about Bowen Yang? This is the this is the big thing that I wanted to reveal on this podcast the other day in a personal text exchange. So that's how you know it's real because we never lie to each other. It's only ever transparent, real, honest and more. Bowen goes. I think I legitimately might be by, which is not the same thing as being a top. Yeah, but the girl talking about you are conflating like having a dick.

Okay, don't do sexual politics with me right now.

All I'm saying is Bowen has a crush on Go ahead, come out say it, Lucy Dakis.

But I've always had this you love like wonderful. Lucy and I exchanged a powerful glance at Forest Hills. This is like three years ago. Oh my gosh, she was. She was opening she and Maxihachi were opening for Connor Oberst, and she had just got she had just done her set. This is right when home Video came out her album. And then I just like glanced over at her, and then she glanced over at me, and we kind of

She talked and hung out, Like it's like, did you did you watch you ever watch nobody wants this?

That thing on Netflix?

Yeah, when men kissing that song is like boo, But it's like that Cynthia romantic pops up that played when you looked at Lucy Dikas across the room. And don't think we ever forgot about your thing with Katie Gavin.

Oh yeah, that's a good love triangle. This is my trend alert. Here we go. It's always with a gay woman and maybe there's a safe in that. It's like, well, there's no stakes in this, so I can safely from a far pine.

So I can't wait to see how this episode turns out. Anyway, because this actually is a huge moment in history, because I can't believe this is true, but I think I actually have two things on record on this podcast. One was there's an episode where I literally go to you, have you listened to Driver's License by Olivia Rodriguez?

And now what is that?

This is when it first came out, and that's on record, and I believe me bringing up Chapel to you is on record on this.

Podcast is also on record on this podcast as well. It's on record for a lot of people who listen to you and they were like, I'm gonna check this girl out.

It was late twenty twenty two when I first sort of hurt her live but no, but then it was Fonda.

It would know.

It was April twenty twenty three. I think you were at the Fonda, and I remember it was a special evening because you could feel the energy and I remember she sang Pink Pink Pony Club and then she was saying the Pink Punty Club is here, and I was like, oh wow, it really feels.

Like it is here, like the La Show, it's about La etcetera.

That was a really special night and I left that being like she's she's.

One of she's the one, She's one of the ones, and now she's here. She's a Pisces legend, she's a Grammy winner. Everyone welcome, Hey, thank you.

One Album of the Year at our Cultural Awards before your album was even out, and I've always wanted to ask you how you felt about that?

Was really really I was like that is that makes sense? It was like that is so funny.

I'm dumb. It was.

It's so silly.

It was earned.

I remember the song that changed everything for me. I was like, wait, what the fuck was casual? Do a lot of people say that.

I didn't expect that. I'm like, literally, Casual was the biggest bitch to get done. Really, it was like a lot of tense moments because I was like, I think it should be huge. I think it should be a really big pop song, and my orrid was like, I don't think. I think it's supposed to be sad, and so I was like wrong, And that's happened so many times about my songs, so like it was it's like even the subway, Like I'm just I was like, nobody's gonna gi a fuck about this.

Like I don't people are clamoring.

Cling so like casual. To me, I was like, I'm just gonna put it out and just not even care because I am like synth pop girl. This is not super synth pop heavy uh huh. But people liked it, and now I love it. I always like things more when I like it.

You don't think it's both like like like a moody song that also builds like this grandiosity, because that's that's what we love about it.

I think I get nervous writing songs that aren't like beat heavy and like dance forward instead of it's kind of like a wallowing and misery type of vibe.

So I hear that. I mean when I left your show. When I first saw you, I was like, I feel like the only way to get it across is like it feels like and this is lame to do this, but it feels like Kesha meets like Annie Lennox.

You have this like fun. You came out of this like shit blonde wig and then.

You came back out with your with your hair and you were like it's me chapel chapel ron and we were all like laughing because there's like aware unawareness and there is like this is before you were calling what you do drag, but there was such a huge drag element.

You had a drag performer open up. Yeah, but yet you have this like.

Haunting, gorgeous, like ethereal voice that I was like, I don't think we have this out there.

So that's what I meant by Like the Kasha meets Annie, that's so sweet.

I mean those are icon girls, Yeah.

But that's fun casual on a song like that. It's funny to hear you say you're like more comfortable doing the beat heavy stuff because what really like took me and maybe this is just the place I was in, but was Coffee was Kaleidoscope, was like those moments that are so like important and deep in your show Thank You.

It is like so different live. You can really really feel the the ballads because I'm actually better at performing ballads like than I am pop songs, just because like I have a ballad voice way more suited for him than I'm mm hmmm. But so that's why I feel like the ballads go so heavy life because I found better.

Well, well, it's like it's it is just like it's almost like a different singer, you know what I mean, Because I guess It's like when you're needing to do the pop thing, do you find yourself being like, Okay, now I'm a different pop girl.

Yeah.

Yeah, you have to like I can't see Kaleidoscope and then go, you know what they say, never Friday Night, and you know it's really it is a different you have to like lock into different characters. I feel like for each song, especially like my king Kus Karma is like I'm less worried about hitting the notes rather than just like screaming as.

Giving hard as I can. You know that was an important song for me at the time. I was like, oh, this is It's an.

Important song for me. Every day I feel like I'm like I actually still feel pissed, Like I don't know if I'll ever get over it. I don't know if I'll if I'll ever not be mad.

Is it kind of the song's fault though, that you're locked into this like sentiment?

Yeah, And that's what's so hard about writing about xes is because you're locked and especially if you hate them, and like I don't, luckily like I don't hate a lot of my exes. I have so many songs about my exes, about different people, about people I never dated, but still in love with like and I don't hate them. But it's really hard to sing songs about people that you hate because you still hate them.

Everybody gets too in life. How many do you have?

How many exes?

But you hate that you fucking hate exes that you fucking hate. I think everyone gets it. Is it more than two? Just just just just greater than or less than two.

I feel like high school people just don't care.

Well, you know what your feelings were real, but it doesn't My.

Feelings were real, but it doesn't count. So one, Yeah, that's only one. But I've dated like a lot of dumb people. But you know that's not their fault.

It's not their fault. You almost feel bad. It's almost like punching down. And then all of a sudden they get the distinction of like having a song, and that's also hard. It's like, well, fuck you elicited such a response from me that I felt moved to write this thing.

It's like it just I get angry every time I but that's good saying it. It's real. It's like it's very real, and it's that's why it feels real about the ballads. It's because like I am feeling that when I'm icing coffee. There's been so many times that I performed coffee and I'm just like, in the middle of the song, was like, yeah, I'm done next, like because I'm like.

You actually ended it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've just been like I can't. I don't want to do this.

That's so like form breaking and cool.

It's just like it's just not worth the rest of the show, you know, because like then you because you always do ballots like in the middle. For me, I do so then it's like a loop loop loop and on like a high note. Yeah, And sometimes I'm just like dreading it so much when like the ballad part, the people like the Picture You vibe because like I have my wig on the mic stand and I drag my wig around and I make it like campy. But I hated Picture You too because I was like this

Do What about when you're doing a cover if you're doing bad Romance?

Yes?

What is?

What is is? Are you just channeling Gather? Are you feeling are you like finding a way in for yourself?

Bad Romance? Low key? I always felt like a fraud singing really yes, because I was like, oh my god, I can't live up to what I think I should be in my fucking head for this song. I like. And that's like the hardest part of like covering songs that are so iconic. It's like people associate bad Romance with like pure it was the biggest fucking pops. Yeah, Like, and I think I just I do covers because I want to feel like what's in my body, Like what what will it feel like in my body to sing

I can't.

I can't match it. That's what I realized. It's like I can't match it.

But does does the feeling of I kind of can channel what it feels like to be Gaga singing this song? Does that compete with the fraudulent feeling? Or is that the same thing. It's like even Gaga's putting on a persona.

I just think that I can't cover every song I want to. I think it's like reserved. Yeah, like you know, I think, and that's the coolest thing about pop. It's like you can't. Fucking ballads like are more attainable, but pop.

Yeah, you know what's funny is it's like with good Luck babe, it's so hard to sing, and like you do see a lot of people taking cracks at it. But you have one of those songs now where it's like that's a Chapel Roone song.

Do you feel like that, bitch?

I can't even sing it.

It's I can't sing.

I cannot sing any original key like in a set of songs if I was just doing it only maybe yeah, But like I don't even when people sing my songs. I'm just like I feel bad because like that I know how hot like I have for you. I was just like, good luck. I don't even care if you fucking mess up because like thank you for trying. Yeah, because I can't even nail it, like and also like I can't sing like an impitch, like like I am maybe seventy percent of the time, but the songs are

Yeah, that's my song.

Yeah, And I you so is it like when you're when you're recording, is it?

I guess why do I ask this question? I plays the technique? Yeah, are you do you have the.

Song out and you're like writing it straight through with like Dan or Justin whoever you're writing with and then you can like play it on the piano altogether. Or are you going back and like revisiting different sections of the song because that one really feels like it's so many different things.

That was well, it was originally called good Luck Jane, and like it. We rewrote it. It was such a it was so annoying. The best songs take the longest, except Pink Pony Club that took one day and like good luck, babe, we recorded the entire song four times because I could not just like find a key that made sense. And so I feel like for Naked and Manhattan, it took two years to write the post chorus, which

Really yes, And that's crazy too because it's such a fun song. But it's like you're like banging your head against the all being like.

Fuck because it was like this is that puzzle was hard? Yeah, it doesn't make sense like I was banging my head against I've been banging my head against the wall with the subway because I'm it just songs can work live. Certain things can work live, and they do not work in the studio or like for like my kink is Karma, Like every performance I scream really loud at the end of the song. I don't do that in the recorded version. Doesn't fucking work. Same with the giver, it did not work.

Was the wording, like like the country boys can't treat a woman.

And only yeah, only it was like only.

A woman knows how to treat a woman right or something.

It was just it just didn't. It was like almost made sense. But also I was like SNL, it was so insane, Like it was just so scary. Your whole career, your whole career. Everyone says nothing is harder than USNL, nothing is harder than us sound it's like, but also like that it is so live and there is no like your band is live. That's like the scariest part. It's like the movie Magic like girl, it's rare that you see anyone fucking playing like anything for real on TV,

Like that's a live you get, you get to mold it and grow with it, and it gets to change, and.

It like it just becomes a character in itself, just like the live performance, Like everyone can kind of like wait for that character of the song to come out.

Because what you're talking about in terms of recording and in terms of like cracking the subway let's say is not to use this phrase again, but you have to. That's that's locked in. You are locked into this thing, and that's that's like the thing that people are going to revisit the most readily and accessively. For what it's worth. I feel like both ping Pony Club and the giver on us and over fucking major. I was listening to

It's called demoitis, demo demo witis, demoitis.

Okay, demo with demo the demos, so like what happens school us?

And this is like, this is to my detriment too, This is to every person's stsment of like I get a demo, I hear it, I play it for my friend, and then I go back in and like, work on it, play it to them again and they're like I just liked the other one better. Yeah, And because you have demoitis because you've like attatched so much to this, like to you attach memories, like you attach all of these

That is like they're attached.

They're attached, and like just because it's different, you'll hate it because that's like human nature, you know. So I was not surprised at all when people were like does the magic And it's like, I think it has the magic. I think, and that's really all that matters. And also like people will just get over it because it's like it just sounds better and for the subway, you know, it's just gonna feel different, and different doesn't always mean bad.

And now you have two versions.

And now you have two versions of the sound version remains, yeah, and like that's the one you love, and there'll be a third version when you come out and you know, perform.

It at all these festivals coming up. Yeah, So it's like it's demoitis. Just remind yourself. It's like like I I there's so many TikTok songs that I'm like, oh my god, this is so fun and I didn't realize it was either a cover sped up or like something. And then I hear the original version, I'm like, oh, I like yeah, and I'm like, oh, I like the TikTok one, and then I like go back and I'm like actually, the artists put that out on purpose because it actually fits the art better. Of course, so I

Yah. Yeah.

And also, do not forget this is a lesbian country song, like this is like a big deal, Like this is for me what I've always wanted to do, So it may not be what you want.

Yeah, right, right, right, right right, there's this like interesting and title. I'm not going to say this, but it's like you're not customer service, you know what I mean. You are not there to like take in all of these complaints and like synthesize them into it can't affect your work.

I had to stop reading.

You got to stop reading. It's probably just I no.

I deleted Instagram and TikTok off my phone on Sunday because I was like, I actually like, if I want to protect my creative psyche, like because I'm writing right now nothing, I have to build a force field around it and the things if I want to for sure have a bad day, like one hundred percent guarantee. I read the comments like and I just have to remind myself, you touch it, yeah, it's like, okay, if you want to open these, you're not going to feel Yeah. So now it's just.

Like never, it's never going to be worth it.

It's never worth it, and like it just hurts my feelings. I thought I would grow out of it hurting my feelings.

Build a thicker skin or something.

I thought I would become callous to it. And sometimes I hate that I'm not callous, and then other times I'm like, actually, thank god, I have feelings about people hurting my feelings absolutely, because that is like sad. If I don't know, maybe I'll get there one day, maybe I can find a healthy medium, but I don't know. People like saying it's not about like my art anymore, all of a sudden, right, It's about me and how

But the thing is, even if they are aren't mistakes, human beings are allowed to make them, of course. And I think that like one thing that people just whether they can't reckon with it or they don't want to because like people feel complicit in it is it's like it was like unprecedented how quickly it changed for you from here to here in terms of like the amount of eyes on you and the out of mouths flapping in regards.

To what you did.

So it's like even in a world where it's like we've seen people go from like whatever it is, like zero to sixthy or overnight success whatever that means, not like this, Because I remember we were at Coachella and.

We were like different now.

We were so.

Excited at Coachella because we were like, oh and I was with a couple of gays who didn't know who you were yeteah, and that was you.

Know, a four.

Yeah, it was a year while at.

The end of that weekend, not only did everyone know who you were, but everyone had an opinion on you, et cetera. And then Gouve Bow was a whole other fucking thing that was fifteen twenty different like think pieces, and it's like that you're never gonna get You are never gonna get what you want out of that one

Do you feel that? Do you guys feel that?

I mean, we're not feeling on your level.

No, But every level, of course, a film is a level.

Every level is a level. The Culture Cure seventy six six, Every level is a level.

But of course, and it's also it's like when you have something, when you have like something that you've put out there that people have really connected with and people have a relationship with you in that regard, it gets harder, which is why I'm happy you just deleted the ship, because you're in creative mode right now and you need to be. I wanted to ask you, like, how is it going in terms of you treating yourself create.

Creatively the artist's way.

I don't know if you have artists.

That book taught me how to protect my creativity and like how to be really treat myself really well and be really gentle with myself. I am really good at respecting my artistry. What I am not good at is respecting like my feelings outside of artistry. Like it's so interesting. I'm like very good at being gentle with like my critiques on myself and like letting things. You know, it's not going to be great the first time. You may

On myself, right when you know what that book does early on, it tells you to like picture and think back on the people early on in your life who like try to like cut you off creatively. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I still I still go about this process with like one specific person, this is the theater teacher or whatever. You have to like treat them the same way that you Chap will treat your exes. Yeah, you have to like fucking go for the jugular in your brain with

Yeah, you know, art is like for me, I'm such I do have a thick skin around like my art. It's really hard to see us something you see online and be like, oh, maybe that's supposed to be funny, right, but everyone's like that's serious and that's actually fucked up, and it's like, huh, maybe it's just not one about you or too serious.

Like well can we talk about Also, like when people were dragging you for doing your mood dang thing.

And then I was like, yeah, I was like, I bet she thinks it's funny.

I did. Yeah, I didn't feel anything.

Sasha and I, Sasha Colby and I were talking about and I was just like, I mean, yeah, everyone's mad. I was like I'm not. I was like, I was like, is she okay? And Sasha was like yeah, girl, she's laughing, she's laughing. I was like, okay, Well then that's fine.

I'm like the why people don't have to get mad on my behalf right, but I'm for fine, yes, so what is there to be mad about? Also, this is what happens like that is andl it's comedy. Ye, Like it is so lighthearted. It was like to me, harmless, Oh my god. And for people to even if you were to push it further harmless, it's like it's comedy. I don't understand, Like I just don't know the line.

I think people just get worked up over someone that they are very It's like a it's like a love bombing thing, or it's like limerens. It's like they're obsessed with you and so they will die. It's parasocial.

I mean, what it is is it's like I need to protect this person they've expressed that they need help, or I feel like I'm projecting what I might need in that situation. But it's hard, Like you're saying, like when you look online, is it supposed to be a joke? Is this thing supposed be funny in a time when we are.

Nothing's funny right?

When very it's not funny exactly.

And meanwhile, it's like that was a really complicated, weird time because it was like I remember getting text from people being like are Bowen and Chapel okay? I was like, first of all, they don't really know each other that well. Second of all, I'm sure they are. Third of all, why are we assuming that people don't have senses of humor.

It's like it's chapelone, y'all.

It's like I was watching your show and that's why I was describing you as like there was like this fun pop kesha, I'm ever come out in the ship long wig and You're like, it's me Chapel Because if we weren't supposed to know, I'm like, this girl is funny.

We're all having fun. It's pop stardom.

It's you know, even if like even if you.

Didn't like think the mooting sketch was funny or anything, you don't say.

Anything, yeah right, there's always silence like you don't.

You can always not say something right. And you know what, people sticking up for me in that situation or not sticking up for me made me feel no different. I didn't feel protected and I didn't feel unprotected. So because I didn't need it either way, sure, because I was not offended.

I wanted to have a serious conversation about this what do you love about service topic?

Okay, I didn't know what service topping.

Was, but do you identify as one? I read?

I read an article, You read an article and to me is it like Stone Top.

It's this is I had an encounter in the last year, not not recently, but someone who was like, what do you want me to do to make you feel good? I'm a service Top said these words to me, like I get off on watching someone take pleasure in what I'm doing.

True, Sorry, isn't that just sex? I'm so honest.

That is thank you for saying me.

So sorry, service Toop, go ahead.

They are in their mind they are nervousing you, which sometimes I mean, I'm sure we've been in situation and I wouldn't even I don't even know if they would identify it as kinky. But like sometimes it's like I want to have sex because I want to feel good. They want to have sex because they want to see you feel good. Does that make sense?

But that in turn makes them feel good, and so it's you know what I mean?

Okay, so you're with you. Sometimes I think we go crazy with the labels of everything.

I don't understand, Okay, I mean, I that's why I ask you if it's kinky, because it's like this may not make me, like I may not understand this pleasure thing for you, but I'm going to do it. Anyway, because like you like to be dominated or something like whatever. But to me, like I just thought that's how sex works.

Yeah, but what is being a giver mean to you? Then?

That just means I want to do things that make you feel good. Yeah, like I'm a I will do things. I will just give my time.

And I will Yeah. And if I take that, if I'm a taker, are I giving you something in return by taking it? That's that I think that's where all three of us are kind of getting a little mixed up.

Maybe I'm lost too.

I don't. I like I'm a pillow princess. I know exactly where I am.

Okay, good kidding?

Are you? No?

I'm not.

I'm I'm sometimes a pillow princess. It feels good.

I think maybe I just like so take it like takeer. I wasn't really like actually thinking about anything when I was. I was just like, oh, that's fun. Yeah, because a giver and a taker, you like a taker? Like That's literally where my mind went. But when I saw the article about like servicetops and whatever, I was just like cool, did not know that existed? Wasn't the intention? Like? I

I wanted to.

You were talking on Apple about like really what it was was you wanted a George straight type of song, right, like you wanted to feel on stage like that kind of swaggy country like character. Yeah, which I think is different than like.

I get off on making you O face.

I thought that was like the point of set. It is like for me, I give you pleasure and that gives me pleasure.

This is the healthiest discourse on sex anyone's ever had.

But it you know, thank god doctor Ruth is dead. Hey, she's rolling in her grave. One time I asked doctor Ruth what she thought of prep and she didn't. She couldn't. It did not compute. She was like what I was like. It was at the Sunnins film Best. I was like, it's so gay guys can have unprotected sex. She goes, well, I hate that.

Na, and then I was like, oh, oh okay.

And then but it was fully doctor Ruth, and I'm thinking she knows like what prep is and she did not. And then I was like, Okay, maybe we've we've missed each other in terms of like the sexual revolution.

The reason I say this is actually a huge reset for people. The way people talk about sex in this day and age is that it has been so divorced from pleasure.

Yeah.

I think for a lot of people that's interesting.

I mean that is why that is my experience when I hooked up with men. That's how I knew I was gay, Uh huh.

Because it never was never felt like it was about you or for you.

No, I just felt so performative. Yeah, and like so like I just did what I thought they wanted, even if it didn't feel good. And maybe that's what to me when I'm like, okay, service top is that do service even if you don't want to. I don't know, Like I just want to do what my partner makes them feel good. And when I make them feel good, that makes me feel good. Right, So I think I would not really know what to do if someone I was hooking up with was only service stone top.

Uh huh.

I don't think I would really know what to do because I would want to do something for them.

Huh. Yeah, are we saying that the term service top is a little bit It feels like it's a given thing. It's like saying, well, I'm a I'm a sensory bottom. It's like, of course you are. You know what I mean?

Now you have something you asked, You're going to feel that, Like.

Why I only I'm the best, I'm best when I bottom and I can feel it. Well, yeah, what are you talking about.

That?

That's crazy?

It's no.

But you know what though, like it takes time to like, I think a lot of people say this stuff because there it's it's more a thing of it's less them expressing what they actually like and more people being like, no, like I do have sexual agency, I do have a sexual identity. When the fact is, it takes a lot

Be a little rocky. It wasn't.

And I was just thinking sitting here, like, you know, I had a great sexual experience like last week, and I was like gratulation, thank you so much and shout out verse also flip you yes, amazing.

And I've been I've.

Really started like owning myself as like the bottom that I am. But then all of a sudden love. So but that's what I guess what I mean is it's like I need to stop telling myself I find one thing. I think we all need to stop telling ourselves are one thing and be open to those different experiences and expressions because I think a lot of it is just us wanting to belong in something.

Yeah, that is so real. It's so nice when there's a label that fits you perfectly right, because that makes you be like, ah, like when I what is the what is the one that is where you only are sexually attracted to people that you're friends with, It's like, I don't know that it's a It's like you have to have like a really strong relationship to like feel like you want to hook up with.

Them, and it's not even just as friendship makes what is it?

I don't know.

I'm not sure it's it's and Rachel.

But when I heard about that, I was like, oh,

Those anyway, people are really bold at the beginning.

My experiences, Okay, you're this is for you, you know what I mean, Like we've experienced some love bombing, and it's like, I'm sure we all have, and it's like this, there's no way you're you're like this.

Yeah, I've even asked a question. I've sat back, cocked.

The brow and been like how yeah, And then they have another line, the one I the one I got.

The one I got was we deserve to have good things for good people. And I was read that.

Motherfucker, where'd you read that next? And think of something smarter?

But some but people like like period when.

You're I'm never surprised anymore when people have rehearsed the whole thing, Like you find out later they had a bit that they were going to do when you sat down at whatever it is they were meeting, Like they researched things to say to you up top with your friends, especially someone.

Like you're talking about, like people that research things about you.

Yeah, well yes, but also I'm going to say, I'm going to say this joke about a celebrity because I know he likes celebrities like that.

No, I was thinking of like people that can't you can't just google like whatever. I guess like for me, that's like gone, and probably like for you, like people, it's gone hard it's gone. Like people can like kind of guess what you might like and like like manipulate a sentence that maybe would work best for you because they know you like a regular bar. I'm always you know, before I guess before last year, before last year. If I like had to pick up line, I'd be like,

You know what.

That's the thing is. It's like they're trying, and everyone's trying. It's like some people think and if I go in with an arsenal of things to say and I really like, you know, dress for Hirst, what this is going to be, I'll feel better about it. But you know, sometimes it's just like it is worth being like, Okay, when are we going to get to the real you? Because because they could take a long time.

You like, you know.

Do you feel like if people know who you are, it's like, uh, turn off, turn on or just be honest. Yeah, right, yeah, it does depend, but I am very weary if someone knows who If someone is a fan and I like have hit on them or something and like started like a relationship with them and I did not know they were a fan. That is scary to me because I'm I've embarrassed, and also I'm like, I don't trust you, and like are you screenshotting everything we're saying?

Are you?

I just get really, I've become so paranoid about that stuff. Like I'm like, girl, I'll just talk like this all the time because it was freaking.

The lip readers. We were talking about that recently. It's like, which, God bless the lip readers.

We need those girls.

We do. It is fun when you when you want to know and you're on the other side of it.

But like right all the time, I'll tell you that.

At the Grammys, You're like, it's fucking open concepts. It's crazy.

All these people are looking down at you. It's almost like I signed for that one thing that they really did. This is the recording out of Me had posted like watch Chapel, watch Benson Boone, or like watch Sabrina Carpenter watching this person, and it's just like, why are we watching these artists watch the thing? And then all of a sudden, you're like your finger starts going like should I click?

And you're like, I mean, no, it's weird, but why is that available?

Because they want so bad to catch you. That's the only reason. They just want to fucking catch you.

Why wouldn't you be paranoid if like that's on your mind.

That's what I'm thinking about always. I'm just like I have to think about all the time. I won't win. It's not that I can or can't win. I won't. Like, no matter what, Lily, I will not win this.

You're not customer service, that's all.

But also it's like I'm not customer service, and it's everyone else's expectation, like against my entire humanity, Like it's so crazy, but it's not their fault. It's like, that's how celebrity culture is where we find our happiness. Are like depths of hell. And for the first time your comment matters, for the first time, something you say people notice. And that's why the big comments are all mean, because for the first time, your voice matters in a country

To be mean because it's incentivizing a mean snarchy.

And the meaner you are, like, the more attention you get, right, But.

It doesn't get them, like, it doesn't get them past the ceiling of like the comment section, right, the comment.

Section, that's the other thing. It doesn't get you past the comics. Like, it's not like it's giving a job. It's not like it's getting you respect. It's not like it's getting you like friends.

Mm hmm. It's awful because everybody, and I'm saying everybody at the highest levels of like this kind of stardom, that that is like what they're dealing with. It is I'm just telling I'm just telling everybody like from like like from what I've seen, which is not too much, but it's like, oh shit, like even in small glimpses like at us and now it's like we just we just you just cycle through like different case studies and fame and it's just that's the common thread and it's

We want to ask you the question that we ask all of our guests, which is Chapel roam, what was the culture that made you?

Say? Culture was for you?

So basically this can be a movie, a music artist, environmental, something about growing up, just whatever it means to you, the culture that.

Made you you.

I'm really glad that guinea pigs have their own culture online because I'm a guinea pick girl.

Wow, is this going to be I ever talked about that?

A lot of people don't know that about the guinea.

Pigs were in We're on SNL for the Giver Oh in.

The background, yes for animal. Yes, the guinea pigs were back there.

Talk about guinea pig culture.

Well, I'm just obsessed with them. I had four a time, but they passed away. But I I am obsessed with them. I think they're the cutest animals on earth. I worked out a guinea I volunteered out of Guinea Pig Rescue for a year. I love rodents in general, and I love the guinea pig community online is awesome. I love that community. I think the culture and like all seriousness that made me feel like me was drag. Yes, at first, I was very freaked out by drag. I was like, I was like the clutch, the.

Pearls girl, is that coming from where you're where you come from? Yeah?

Yeah, I'd never like the first time I went to a drag show, I was eighteen seventeen or eighteen, and it was Hamburger Mary's Oh Wow, And I was like, oh my god, why do they keep saying anus. That's disgusting.

They do that?

Yeah, And I was like I just went I was like, that was so fun, But why did they have to just make everything so.

I feel strange?

I was like yes, and I was like what the hell? And then I just got addicted to it. So and that has taken like a long time. Yeah, like that is in my actually in my blood now and like to realize all of that. How it freaked me out at first was really just me not having any gay culture at all expressed in my life whatsoever. So like yeah,

You are a fairy guinea pig. You did you know that? And you know that you know you've always known a deep down I like you know.

I love But also the there's been a real awakening which I grew up on the Barbie movies, like the Crazy Crazy. I saw a compilation the other day of the Barbie Animals of the How fucking crazy it was, and like Barbie raised me.

Yeah, I think fairies and Barbie is.

A Barbie fairy Toopia, and that is where Bibble came from. And Bibble is basically a flying guinea pig.

So yeah, do you feel like the fairies visit you when you're writing, when you're being creative? Are you channeling the fairies in a way? Are the fairies in the walls? And what are your muses? Like? Like, I think the fairies are your muse.

I usually I would say yes, fairies visit me. But I think like the way I write now is from like I take things that are really fucked up and then make it really like I don't know, Like it's the same with like the subway. The lyrics are usually always darker, right, and they become like very very dark, and then.

They become like light do a brightening draft?

Yeah yeah, yeah, so it's always like heavy dark and then you know, then the fairies come and twinkle their fairy does and it's like, yeah, maybe all of a sudden can actually be on the radio. Sorry, I've given like three cultures.

They're good because they're sharing to each other. Oh, you need to keep sharing.

I want to return to guinea pigs the sentence of the day because I had hamsters when I was little and one of the most traumatic things I think I've ever been through.

I tell you every story.

They were named Chippendale and one day my dad said I have to talk to you and I was like what, And then he basically was like, we don't have Ship and Dale anymore. I was like, what they had eaten each other chapel, That's what happened. They had eaten each other alive. I don't know if it was throws of passion. I don't know if they had a gay fight.

They ate each other.

At the same time, Chip and Dale killed each other. It was wh what is that?

Beta fish? They fight each other, they kill each other.

It couldn't compute. And now getting older and knowing human nature and animal nature, I sort of get it. Like they were cooped up together for a long time with they were Chip and Dale.

That's hard. I was Spoisers territory.

They're vicious it's true, but what were they territorial over like the space they.

Just you know what, I'm five guinea pigs, Yes, I can't normally most of the time you can't have two more than two together, and like you're lucky if they bond correctly as two boys, like you have to like bond them correctly or else they will fucking like try to kill each other. So maybe they just like did not get what they were just not bonded correctly, or they were Ah, they're hamster. I don't know.

Did you have gay ones?

I only had girls do really well with like multiple girls.

God, it's not always the case, it is it always is the case.

Do you want to like have one now to like have around with you?

I wish I had there? What is so like guinea pigs are not really children's pets, Like they're way more difficult to take care of than a dog or a cat. Really, yes, because you can't just like pour them a bowl of food, like they need a specific type of hay, they need vitamin C, like they need a specific type of fruits and vegetables, Like you have to give them supplements and you also like have to clean their cage. They can only have certain types of bedding. You have to exercise them.

And maybe I maybe we just didn't know that because I'm imagining it's the same, like sociologically, I guess because they killed each other, right.

But everyone has a crazy hamster, guinea picker, gerble story, gurbles.

I can relate to the rodents. I'm a rodent girl. Yes, well okay, and maintenance. I'm I'm little. You need vitamin C repellets.

I need my Hey, hon, can I tell you I might have beendeed deficient?

Are you?

So?

Do you take like a vitamin decapsule?

I must, you should, Yeah, But it's like sometimes getting out there in the sun is like, you know, it's better in theory, but then you get sunburnt.

Can I ask you, Yeah, why do you speaking of the sun in New York cruising?

Yeah?

And I this is like I someone asked me this, like a gay guy friend asked me the other day of like why don't lesbian's cruise?

Huh?

And I want to know what you think.

This is what I think.

I think because gay sex is a lot more transactional and a lot more projection y. So it's like, actually, it's funny like this, this person that I was sleeping with, we went on our first date and he goes, yeah, I don't hook up a lot because I feel that it's a lot to do with like projection, and I don't really need that, Like talking about what we were talking about earlier about how like sex actually is like two people coming together and you usually can.

I find this too.

It's like when you have like good eye contact with someone or like the conversation is easy. That's why people talk about like the banter, and it like just directly translates because that's what this person was looking.

For and is looking for.

And I think even more me and I've never really done like the cruisy thing and the like random hookup thing, Like of course I've done I've I've experienced it and like experimented, but like I never felt comfortable going in and out of those situations. A lot of people do and like that's great, But I think it has to do with just what gay guys are looking for and needing out of sex, and it's just transactional.

Yeah, it can live in a marketplace, it can live in like a bathhouse or a park. It can live. There's a space for it. Whereas like, just to generalize, I feel like among lesbians it's like it's very there's no like end point to sex. Necessarily it's emotional. It's like, yeah, it's it's achievement based. It's not achievement based, as that you're investing time and energy and care for each other in a way that like is not going to be

Yeah.

Does that sound right? I do.

No. I imagine you were like, well, the answer is no, I don't know what. I don't know the answer. I've just been because I was naive and I went to Central Park and I was like, everybody is loving the sun. It's just out in this you know.

It's like.

Yeah, And I was like they're like someone was like, they're cruising and I was like, I was like, what cruise cruising? What and so And I was like, so, I've just been asking, like take on cruising and also why people think that it's not in the lesbian culture as much. I'm sure it is in some capacity that

In La La, I think, well, l A is l A is weird because it's it's it's the king of.

This looking over your shoulder. It's constant but and you know what it is.

It's like it's not even cruising as much as it Moore is just like constant comparison and like wondering how if you can do better. That's kind of and it's not to again, I hate dragging a whole city because I love La and like, but I have found with dating it is a lot harder, a lot.

Hard People say that I came to New York because La is really hard to date.

In especially when like you're not like because now I'm I just turned thirty five. It's like I'm kind of looking now for something that could be my next like relationship. And I understand this, Like I get it, I whatever, But it can be a little demoralizing as you get older and are looking for something else. So better to just take yourself out of the environment entirely, which is why I moved to New York.

You can move back, so New York. We don't have our fucking phone stolen as much at the abbey. Wait, this is a thing. Did have you heard about this pony club? You talked about it? Is it you doing it? We've all had our phone stolen. I went to you, I've never had my phone stolen. I would guys have I've had my phone stolen, Not.

At that, not at the abbey, but I've had three friends and one night I have their phone stolen.

Yes, And you know what they were saying, it was it was the theory was that it was a bunch of short women to women because they could just not that they're picking on the women, But that was the theory they were. They were picking on me.

I'm sorry, why not short guys. The short guy said that it was.

It was the short women, they said, but there were it was. It became like epidemic there for a while in La.

It's crazy. It's like, I don't know, my friend just got his phone stolen off the grove. So the grove crazy out there right now at the grove.

Where are you at the Oh my god?

Is it? Oh?

Was it not a l o?

I have no idea. I'm butchering it. Send us clothes and maybe we'll figure it out. No, but yeah, no, the grove. Wow, imagine cruising at the grove.

It happened.

One time I saw my favorite porn star at the grove. Should I say who it is?

Now?

His name is Chris Damned. He's great and I saw Damned.

Yeah, that's awesome. But he's not like demonic. He's like quite lovely.

I love it.

But by the way, a lot of people are my favorites, and I don't have one favorite. At the time, I was gagged because there he was at the grove. Yeah, I was like, wow, we're a star star.

It's time. Oh my god, it might be time. I don't think so, honey, I don't think so, honey.

And I like, I was sort of going back and forth about what I was going to do. I guess I'll do this, okay, because we also had a caffeine conversation before getting on.

Yeah, okay, I'll do that. Hey, so this is I don't think so honey.

It's our one minute segment where we take sixty seconds aka one minute if you really think about it.

To rip something apart in culture. And here we go. This is Matt Rogers. I don't think so many time starts. Now. I don't think, so honey that coffee gives you coffee breath.

That sucks.

We need to figure it out.

Like actually wake up in the morning and I'm become that person where I open my eyes and I need caffeine. I don't think, so honey that it's gonna change anytime soon. Our guest is off caffeine, and I feel like I'm inspired by that. But it's just another one of my strange addictions. I now wake up in the morning, and also now I have relationships with the coffee shops. Those are my girls. I have my girls in LA and

She did seconds and so she's an icon.

But listen, the thing about coffee is it gives you coffee breath, which is so bad for kissing, speaking, breathing, et cetera and more. And I just want to figure out a way to get my fix of caffeine and not have coffee breath. I guess here it is Dia, Coke, Celsius, etcetera. But I love coffee. I don't think so, Hony, that's one minute.

Like I'm now at the place where you just gotta you just gotta go cold turkey on it. I think, I think so.

But it's like now it's like so built into my life getting a cold brew right away first thing when.

You wake up.

I quit over Christmas break And was it just because like you were getting Oh yeah, I was just like going crazy. I was like already too anxious and so like I was like, if I want to actually calm down. I have to take every stimulant away. Yeah, very stimulant.

So wait, do you smoke weed?

Not right now?

Not right now?

Yeah, so like basically, are you in a place right now of like there's nothing going in good.

I wish let me say that there's an asterisk. I want to fuck ton of drugs though, like yeah, yeah, yea, I'm like, but it's not recreational. No, not right now, no, queen, Yeah yeah, come on, I'm yeah, I've got my I also have insomnia, so like, and I'm bipolar. So it's like really hard if you are like not sleeping and doing weed.

Yeah, so it's cocktail.

The cocktail. But I do love an edible. I do love shrimps. Thank you, Silo for sending me a box. I don't know how you did that legally.

Hey, silou, and we can love that I know next time.

But I agree with you, it's really hard. Quitting caffeine sucks for four weeks straight, well because then you're Okay.

What we're not reckoning with is it is a drug totally. It is a drug.

Like and now I actually wondered about that, like people that are in AA and stuff, like I wonder what the relationship is with caffeine.

I'm sure there's a support group out there for you. That's wild. I think we can. Let's do it together. Well, it's like added to the list.

I'm now a place where it's just like I don't know why I keep doing this, but I just keep I'm moving to a new apartment in New York, and I keep associating that with the day my new life will begin. But like, you can't. That's like, that's like addicts speak to you to yourself. It's like, well, I'll be I'll be sober from this thing by age thirty five, or like I'll just stop doing this on May twelve, you know what I mean.

It's like it's like, but why wouldn't you just stop doing it now?

Right?

Yeah?

So that's me with caffeine, and this would solve my coffee breath problem period. I think very afraid of people, like I think the one of the worst things that could happen is for.

People to be like, oh, he has bad breath. That's bad.

That is my worst nightmare.

Yeah, or someone saying that don't worry anyway, don't worry about.

It, okay, bowing yang, you actually came in galvanized today I did. Okay, so this is bowing yang' I don't think so many time starts now, I don't think.

So many amper sands. You're doing too much. Oh why do you look like that? Why do you look like other? Ways? Stay in one lane, figure out one Look. I'm gonna draw an ampersanda right now. Okay, and now I have carple tunnel. That is crazy that shape, And here's I looked it up. This is what ampersanda is short for, quote unquote and per se and honey, just say and

I have to say, especially as two people who often are Matt and Bowen and the em person is in there, don't do it.

Don't do it. From now on, it's Matt plus Bowen, right, Matt plus Bowen. We were doing plus. I used to nam persan. Recently, I'm gonna I'm gonna start to retroactively. You ended am person today. Thank you, Thank you so much. Sorry thoughts on a person?

I use it everything.

No, wait, when you're doing what I.

Will, I write incursive and so it's like I'm like, I use an signed all the time.

Though, how do you write it? How do you write?

I don't do that crazy eight thing.

It's the crazy eight thing is that you do the reverse three in the line down the middle.

I just go it looks like an upside down four.

No, that's a plus sign.

Yeah, okay, then I do that.

Wait wait, wait, because you've also done it. I don't think so, honey, on the letter nine.

On the letter nine, the number nine, sassame street, reach out. You need us there to teach the children. Wait, the number nine.

So wait, if you don't like am percent, how can you stand by the number eight because.

Eight represents the number eight, and but it still will give you a carpor tunnel if asked to write it, if to ask with writing it. And it's easier for me to write eight the numeral than it is to write E I, G H T. And is barely saving you any time from writing. And I do agree that.

Handwriting and ampersand is like a mind fuck. But you know, if you can figure it out, which seems I support.

Okay, Chapel, I feel like you you you wrote your topic down and we don't know what it is yet.

This is how I do it.

This is like, okay, is this the creative process? Are you always carrying around like a moleskin?

This isn't mine?

This is no I know, but but I'm but I'm in a world where it is yours, and that's really good.

Thank you. Okay, it's time, this is Chapel rounds. I don't think so, honey. Her time starts now.

My I don't think so, honey. Is stop. Let people get venus. Let let the people have bad venir, let them have good veneers, let them fall out, let them be pure white, let them look like coffee. Let them who cares if they don't fit. What if they love them? What if people love their Veneers? What if they saved up so long to get these veneers? Thirty seconds and then you say that they look fucked up. Don't say

Talk different fifteen seconds.

That's what happens. When you change your teeth, You're just gonna look and talk different, and it's okay. Stop dragging them. Your teeth are probably busted, which is fine. But you know what, I support you if you got veneers and you're busted.

Yeah, and that's one minute. Okay, this is important. Way, this is amazing. It's very American of people to be like, I know how teeth are supposed to look.

Do you want to know my hottest take? How people drag cosmetic surgery and drag cosbic whatever. Yeah, you know what's fucking cosmetic braces?

Yeah?

So you want to tell me you haven't had cosmetic work done, but you've had.

Braces, hmm, got them? Got them?

Don't tell me that.

We've all had gender affirming care. It all me me shaving my fucking stubble this morning is g ac wow. Not to go there, but are you speaking? And I will say this is especially meaningful coming from you because I feel like your your your orthodontire is very pristine.

Because I had fucking I had work done my teeth. Yeah, I had fucking visi line for years because I could afford it.

Right, how what was the invisiline process like for you? I'm actually flirting with it in my in my brain because people have started to get a little mean about my teeth.

Because they're American.

Yeah.

Wow, it's only in the United States that it's fucking people are obsessed, obsessed, obsessed, And if you do have to and they're fucking yellow, they better not be. Like in reality, bitch, you have to have money to do this ship right, it's so expensive. No one has fucking healthcare. No one has four fucking braces. Like, so I say let them be. I say let it be. We need girls with different teas.

I never thought I had bade you bad. You know what it is. It's like they're just okay. So this was living. This is the truth. This is the truth I was. I did. I did a very small role in a.

Movie called Lyle Law Crocodile, a huge movie called you Know called My co stars Shawn Mendes as the crocodile and Constance wu As herself as a character. But she was what was your character? So I played like a Ryan Seacrest, like America's got talent, like hosts. Because of course Lyle Lyle goes and wiles the judges at the end. So the little boy playing the lead I'm saying this publicly comes over me, like runs over to me and goes,

And I go literally go, you can't say that to people, and he just runs away. And I was like, this.

Little actor just dragged me to hell.

And then you know what happened. I went into the goddamn bathroom and went like this.

Pretty shine a line almost.

Like AMI thinking like what is wrong?

And then they.

Started saying like he needs braces. But I also want to tell you I tuck it on one side of my mouth. So but this is the stuff you Americans have gotten in my head.

And then one guy I was I was dating said never change the gap, and change the gap. No, no, no, everybody I've dated.

I've dated a lot of different teeth, and I like them all.

Yeah, as long.

As you don't have bad breath.

Who fucking cares, right, that's my coffee.

I love it. I love it. I love when people have gold teeth. I love it when people have missing teeth. I love it. Yes, I just like, let's see, it's also just like, bitch, so parents could never fucking afford their kids to have racist when you grow up, that's what's what happens.

I know.

And you know what, it's fucking hell to have races, and some people really need them because or al s they'll have actual like jaw problems, or like teeth will start falling out because it's overcrowding whatever. Bitch. Yeah, like, but I was actually admiring your teeth the whole time. Oh really, yeah, I was like, it's so they're so cute and right, and you have very.

White teeth too. But I thank you for saying this important thing about let veneers be yellow, because they should be a little yellow, because then someone's gonna say, well, those veneers are too white. It's like there's you can't win with them.

They won't win. You won't win.

That's important. It's not about can't. It's not about should.

Yeah, or you might win, you will not. That's for my therapist on Monday.

Honestly, are you going once a week?

Maybe? I'much twice, I mean twice a week. I have my biodynamic cranial sacral therapy, I have my acupuncture, I have my Oh.

My girls, I need to try acupuncture. Acupuncture will slag.

Really, I had to do it like ten times until I really was like, I understand it.

It takes a minute, it takes a se what do you mean, like physically it's hard to adjust to it or just want to because.

Like you know, you're like I was trained in like only medicine works, like only like taking medicine works, and so whenever I don't have like an immediate like I take child and then I feel better if I go and get acupuncture, and I'm like, nothing's different. Yeah, I was like does this work? I don't know. And it's like with wellness medicine, you just it's about yeah, you

I love that I'm just lying there for like a half hour and I can't do anything. Yeah, it's kind of cool.

Mm hmm.

And it's kind of cool.

Today was kind of cool. Today was very cool. And we were so happy that you were able to come. Like we've been wanting to do this with you for such a long time and we are you know obviously you know it feels like even silly to say, but like we are such fans, I know, like we really like I just think you're the best.

You guys made me feel so special. You believed in the art, You were the start of the getting the queer community on or like no, no, I'm serious like you Like I remember guys nominated.

From Buckingham Palace, love that palace, and I was.

Like, I can't believe I'm nominated with like Mona, Like that's so cool. I was like, this is crazy that these were all like nominated. That's feels so big. And because I've never been like recognized on a platform that big yet, So that was so I don't know, I just really appreciate it and that you got it, like you were the first people in media to get it because you articulated it for the right for the first time, because you were like, it's campy, there's lore, and I

And you're so for real and that we just like it's been truly surreal and a joy even for us to watch everyone really embrace you. And I just hope that even sometimes when it feels difficult, you know just how helled.

You are and how loved you are, and how.

How special we think you are, and like you'll always have a place right.

There right here. Let's get the ears together.

So we have every episode with a song bo right, I mean, we could do one of our guests, but also also st it oh.

By a battle mans Oh bat mans I.

Knew you'd go on, I went up here everything Bye. Last Culture. Racis is the production by Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and Ihart Radio.

Podcasts, created and hosted by Matt Rogers and Bowen Yek, executive produced by Anna Hasnier and produced by Becka Ramos, edited mixed by Doug Bami and Nikla Board and our music is by Henry Komirski