Alright, we should be connected. Yes, we are connected. I see. As resorting and as well first of all welcome to the next link time chat episode and David and for me right before we started recording that he was planning on hanging up on me several times during this call. That is a pre planned thing. Or maybe, maybe that's what you said, or maybe what you really said was that your internet is spotty today and I'm just taking it personally. I don't know.
David J. Peterson: What I'm, what I'm saying is, watch yourself. All right. You are already on thin ice. The tennis. If David J. Peterson: You think I forgotten about that. David J. Peterson: Diocese David J. Peterson: AJ aren't area sees that you want to know. What I was gonna say, Wait, that should be me upset with you because you took it away from me. David J. Peterson: Uh huh. And you were advocating for it.
David J. Peterson: You have to back every single one of my decisions 100% and I have to back. None of yours. That's how this partnership. In fact, you find out what I want and then you start taking Central Valley. Oh, yeah. David J. Peterson: Oh, David J. Peterson: But we, man. You got yes I did get women only because I've lost Something else that's okay. That's okay. I do have, we must David J. Peterson: Hey,
David J. Peterson: I've got it. I gotta pitch idea. Check this out. So replace Christmas with this you get gifts, but you also lose step of equal value and you open the gift. First, and it's very exciting. And then you go back to your room and you see, oh, oh. Maybe I shouldn't have traded But Is the question, though, do you get to pick what Is appearing or you just find out it's gone. David J. Peterson: No Santa brings the presence and then cramp is steals things from you.
Well, I will say not quite the same, but when will was younger. We always knew around Christmas, he was going to be getting lots of toys because kids just collect toys from everybody in life. And so around Christmas, we would always have him go through and say, if you want new ones like if you want Santa to visit you have to give stuff away so give it up to donate before David J. Peterson: Christmas every. Hang on. David J. Peterson: Yeah, you're muted. I can't hear you.
Oh, well I can hear me. Oh no, I see my microphone. David J. Peterson: Okay, are you what's Happened. David J. Peterson: Okay. Are you sure your air pods are working David J. Peterson: I mean, David J. Peterson: Not as far as I know. David J. Peterson: Okay, so we're going to do the rest of this podcast where I can't hear, Jesse. David J. Peterson: It says left battery at 98% right battery at 98% Wait, are you not recording I am there's a red dot. I'm ready.
David J. Peterson: When you are recording. Yeah, I know we're all recording. Okay, that's good. David J. Peterson: I'm gonna try this again. David J. Peterson: Hello. Hello. David J. Peterson: It's like a hold on speaker. David J. Peterson: Let's try that Hulu. Hello. David J. Peterson: There you are. Okay, I was gonna say I haven't stopped my little microphone is showing the whole time that I've been talking So hopefully on the recording. Everybody hears me
David J. Peterson: Yeah, I just like that. I mean, we're not going to edit this at all. David J. Peterson: And just because we are that lazy. Yeah, it's David J. Peterson: Hard Candy Christmas. quoting a Dolly Parton song. I love it. I am David J. Peterson: Ok ok that's small digression. This is the last one, I swear. What the hell is a hard candy Christmas. Well, I'm guessing based on context that it's a Christmas where that's all you get.
Like your only gift as a piece of hard candy, because you just don't have enough money so it's like you only get these little things, but they mean so much because it's just you and your family. David J. Peterson: Okay, why did you choose hard candy. Because like that's that's the thing that people like. Well just second. What is a hard candy.
David J. Peterson: Christmas. Yeah. So here's here's I it reminded me of the song Wonderwall by oasis. You know Wonderwall Of course, David J. Peterson: Okay, so the first many times I heard it. David J. Peterson: It was like, you have this course and label a nice things better than that. I just David J. Peterson: Want to throw a dig in. But
David J. Peterson: You know, so, so, but maybe you're going to be the one that saves me. And after all, here comes the big payoff. You're my Wonderwall so you can tell us Wonderwall Right, you obviously I know. So it's like, is this. It's weird because it's like, this is the metaphor that's supposed to pay off where you're supposed to
David J. Peterson: Get it that's going to make the whole song makes sense. And it's just nothing. It's like, I didn't get it at all. Now, it turns out that, of course, he was referring to a rare George Harrison album. Called one. Okay. David J. Peterson: And so that was what he meant it was kind of like your my, you know, rare find that that always makes me happier or, you know, something to that effect, but it was something real.
David J. Peterson: Like it was just a name. We didn't know it's, it would be like it would be like, I don't know if I if I if I said to you, it's like, wow, you're my Dan Marley. Do you know who Dan Marley is
David J. Peterson: No, no, see, so it means nothing to you, even though like Dan Marley, was he was a pretty big deal of my life. So then there was Wonderwall and it's like, well, if you don't, it just doesn't even sound like a name. Anyway, so I thought it meant nothing but it meant something so hard candy Christmas.
So on the one hand, I was right because it says the phrase hard candy Christmas refers to a time when many families did not have much money and could only afford to give Penny Candy to their children. However, it's got a another meaning. On top of that, because what I didn't realize was that the song was actually written For and first performed in the Best Little Whorehouse in Texas and so
The lyrics of the song. It says here, suggest the many choices and difficult decisions girls have to make as they move on, specifically as they're leaving because, well, I won't give any spoilers anyway. David J. Peterson: Yeah, because I still haven't seen it. You should, you should But I did not realize that it actually debuted and was written expressly for
David J. Peterson: That movie that I didn't either. And, and now though so weird. We are given understand the hard candy. Christmas is a it's, it's something that people would have known like here's the song would have been like, oh yeah. Maybe I actually have no idea. I just always assumed that that's what it referred to, because I know from like Little House on the Prairie that they used to give fruit or candy for Christmas. And that was it.
And so, like, to me, that was just like, oh, it's a hard candy Christmas. Like, that's all we can give David J. Peterson: Hmm. I don't know. David J. Peterson: See I when I was listening to it. The first time I thought it was gonna be Christmas like a hard candy and it's like David J. Peterson: Christmas that you kind of stuck on has good flavor. It's a peppermint stick That's what it is. Okay, we're gonna move on from there. Yes, um, today's topic we've been going for.
Almost 10 minutes and don't have a topic for the day. Okay, so some of our listeners are in the United States, so you'll know about this holiday. Others are not and so you may not be aware of our holiday here in the United States that is still on the government books and like banks still get off and it is Columbus Day. Now mind you, Columbus Day is now kind of being taken over by a much better holiday, which is the
National Indigenous peoples day. And so that's the one I'm choosing to celebrate today it is Monday, October 12, by the way, on the day of recording You won't hear it till November 1 but just understand that this is all very timely.
But anyway, I'm assuming that because we're the same age that you had the same education. I did where like I learned a lot about Columbus and Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria you know 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue that whole thing. Yeah, but like you don't really learn About the people other than the fact that there were people that he missed named the Indians, because he thought he was in India, but like
We never really learned about the people here other than just historical notes as as needed for the the colonization kind of history is that the same kind of education, you had David J. Peterson: Unfortunately, yes. Yeah, pretty much. I mean, did you make a boat. Oh, always Oh yeah, like it. Usually, it was like a newspaper boat that you actually like get to go outside and play and it was all exciting because
We had school on it, but it was always like a free day where we got to like celebrate all day, and there are schools now that just get it off. There are like right now banks are off today and you know it's because on the calendar. It says Columbus Day, and it's like Yeah, such a bizarre. Day, it makes much more sense to celebrate the indigenous peoples.
David J. Peterson: Yeah, no, but this actually might be interesting, especially for listeners outside of the United States. So part of what many, many young children do is David J. Peterson: You know, a quote unquote celebration of this holiday or just in learning about it is you make a boat. Usually it. So yeah, it can be at a newspaper. We also did it out of cardboard, not for sailing, but for making it look nice.
David J. Peterson: And so, yeah, you just make a boat. That's like one of the boats that Columbus sailed on David J. Peterson: Where the Pilgrims sailed on David J. Peterson: Right and and you just make you know little models of them and so that'll be like your art project for a day or two, depending on how much effort is put into it. David J. Peterson: That's like one of the things that you remember your education. Well, in one of the One of the
Codes. Right. One year. I think it was my eighth grade year, we actually got to do like It was like a NOT QUITE A silkscreen press, but it was that same kind of idea. And so everybody brought in a just a white t shirt or or You know, playing color shirt and we got to paint the the boat stencils on shirts and so that was like the big thing. So you had a shirt that you made with the three boats. Yeah. It was. I mean, like, Seriously though, like exactly what you're saying like this was a big deal.
Still is in a lot of places because I know even when will was in daycare. He brought home macaroni art. That was the macaroni noodles for the ocean and then the three boats were on it. I mean like this. Still, we still make boats. We are obsessed with these freaking boats. So, Welcome to America where Celebrate boats. Okay. So in honor of what I'm calling the actual holiday. Hmm. I have selected three languages that were spoken by indigenous people of
Oh, I'm going to go ahead and restrict it. I'm telling you now because it's going to be some rounds of name that language. I'm going to give you facts and you're gonna have to tell me what language. I'm talking about. Okay. Um, but I am I did restrict it to continental United States territory and so that automatically takes out a lot of language families that would be saying Alaska or Hawaii. So like we're really just waiting to my favorites.
David J. Peterson: To my favorites that I know a lot about Thing. Well, you're welcome. One of the reasons, by the way, I restricted, it is because I'm going to hopefully save enough time at the end that you can teach me something about Hawaii. And because I know that that is a language that you know stuff about and it's a language that I just find so beautiful and so I was like, well, at the end, David can tell me about a language. And so I had already thought through that, which is why I took
David J. Peterson: Hawaii out of it. Okay, so There are others, though. And I did. They were only languages that I could find information about. They're all on walls and so that also tells you a little bit more. Because obviously there's tons of languages that it could be But I did like I wasn't trying to be mean. And like stumped. David on a podcast. You know, David J. Peterson: Probably do it anyway.
Well, because there's a lot of languages and What I'm going to do is give you Features so type illogical features from balls and I'm going to wait. This is the part of the game. By the way, where I keep going back and forth. I'm like, should I give him the family in genus Up front but then I think for some of them that may narrow it down so much that you already know the language before having to listen to any facts. Okay, so I think what I'm going to do. David J. Peterson: Is
On the first one we're going to see how it goes. We're rolling with the punches today. Everyone. Yeah. I'm going to read the facts first and then I'm going to tell you the family and genus and if at any point, you're like, Oh no, I already know the language, feel free to guess. And then I also have web sites pulled up in case you need to ask more questions. David J. Peterson: Okay, cool. So language. Number one, and we're going to have three languages, by the way.
Just so that way you know What's going on, and I'm trying to position my document so I can still see you Doesn't matter to anybody else but me, but That's nice to see what you're thinking. David J. Peterson: I'd like to see me too. We have already established this Alright so this language. Are you ready David J. Peterson: Yeah. This language has a moderately large consonant inventory, but a small vow inventory, with only in between two or four unique foul.
Qualities in it, which means that has a high, consonant, vowel ratio because a lot more consonants and vowels. It does have a voice in contrast and frickin lives, but not in places and it's voiceless stop series includes aspirated on aspirated and objective phone names. It's syllable structure is moderately complex and it has simple tones.
So that's some information about it sounds. And by the way, like I was kind of excited to see moderately complex. The last syllable structure which connects to are hopefully going to be complex, a little Structure of our language coming up. I also found it interesting that there's no voice. In contrast, in the closest but it does have the aspiration and aspirated and objectives that I was like, Oh, this is good.
David J. Peterson: Okay, see the only tone language. I know for sure. I'm pretty sure it's not it because it has for open syllables. David J. Peterson: I think there were any tone languages in the Pacific Northwest, but I would be David J. Peterson: I'd be surprised. I know I wouldn't be surprised. David J. Peterson: Can you give me something else. Oh, I've got that was just the sound facts. David J. Peterson: Okay get Ready for the more fo syntactic facts. David J. Peterson: Got it.
This language has SOV word order with post positions and while it's adjectives appear after nouns. It's demonstrative appear before nouns. David J. Peterson: That's nice to know that. David J. Peterson: That's it's nice to know that happens. Sorry. Good.
Exactly right. Like, I thought that was cool. It has a very large system for contrast in its demonstrative systems, so much so that I have a whole article pulled up about it because this is something we're gonna have to talk about So it's a, at least based on what I can understand it ranked on walls in the five or more way contrast system. Based on what I can find. There are at least six ways that it splits for its demonstrative
And then like the different kinds of inflections that go on it, make it look like there's like 20 different ways. Anyway, so this is something we're going to talk more about although the language is a strong prefixes language. It has plural suffixes for its nouns on its verbs you mark both the A and P arguments with the P argument being marked before the A argument. So looking at that sort of Agent patient terminology there.
And verbs can inflict for situational and epistemic possibility and it's nouns, do not have any tastes marking. This language differentiates the competitive from the instrumental and denounce race coordination. It's word for and is identical to that competitive with which David J. Peterson: Nice. Isn't that something that we did. Yes, it is. It's all I was very Excited. I was like, Yay. That is nice to have.
In terms of semantics, the word for finger in hand, are the same, but the word for hand and arm are different. And this language has a Decimal numeral based system. So nothing like You know, In God Alright, so those are my facts. And then I'm going to tell you the family. Okay, and then I can give you the genus as well within the family, the larger family, though, and I'm hoping I'm saying this right is not in a In a hyphen D and E David J. Peterson: I certainly know that family. Keep going.
It's genus is Athabaskan Within that family. David J. Peterson: All right. David J. Peterson: I'm willing to commit. Give it to me. What is it, Mr. Whoa. David J. Peterson: No. Okay. Not always tonal It has simple tones. That's what it says in walls. That's how it's categorized. David J. Peterson: How on earth. So here's one thing before we talk about us demonstrative. This is a paragraph, I found from from its Wikipedia page.
Everything I just read, by the way, with some walls. And so, you know, a verified things but this paragraph, I found really interesting It says in terms of basic word order Navajo has been classified as subject, object for right However, some speakers order the subject and object based on noun ranking and in this system nouns are ranked into three categories humans, animals inanimate objects.
And within those categories nouns are ranked by strength size and intelligence, whichever of the subject or object has a higher rank appears first in the sentence structure.
As a result, the agent of an action may be syntactically ambiguous because it may be the object but show up first in the sentence structure and so linguist, including a Louise Jelinek consider Navajo to be a discourse configuration language in which the word order is Not fixed by syntactic rules but determined by pragmatic factors in the communicative Context. David J. Peterson: It's not an inverse system. Yeah, so like
David J. Peterson: Not. Yes. Wow. David J. Peterson: That's really so the inverse system for those listening is is one where the arguments are always ranked by animosity. David J. Peterson: And it is always assumed that the more highly animate argument is the agent and when it is not there is some sort of either a verb modification or a particle that tells you that the opposite thing is true.
David J. Peterson: In this case, it sounds like there is this kind of animist the system that is optional. David J. Peterson: That that speakers will use, but there's no inverse marker to help you out it right David J. Peterson: It kind of reminds me of Japanese where it's like, oh yeah, Japanese is super pro drop. But there's no David J. Peterson: Marketing whatsoever. David J. Peterson: Right, you do it. You just know You can carry that well in that
Too. Because, which is why I think I don't think there's any sort of strategy for the inverse marketing because it does say it would be syntactically ambiguous at that point. Yeah. And as a reminder, back to the facts. I read, there's no case marking. So it's not like there's even case marking on on the subject or object of really help you out.
You could, it would disambiguate though if because it does Mark for both subject and object on the verb. It does have that by personal marketing and so like I would imagine that that would help out in some cases, but it's not always because, I mean, some of them are going to carry similar you know it's going to be third person singular for both of them and you still have to figure out which one's subject or object so
That I just I just found that really interesting. I didn't know that about Navajo I Wonder. David J. Peterson: You have to do some sort of a probiotic study of it if there was some sort of prosthetic weight you give into it if the, if there was a mismatch. That would be interesting to look at. That's really right. Right. Yeah. And I also in. So I'm going to share a screen right now with David we're recording this through. Zoom and so
For for eventually when videos are released. Other people will see this but this is actually the spatial terms that I was talking about with those demonstrative because I was looking it up to find more information about it because I was just really interested in such a large Have so many, so many different distinctions that could be made. And so here's what I mean when, like I say there are technically six ways but
It's also each spatial term ends up getting split up into whether it's here. They're nearby or there. So for instance, since you're not seeing the screen in the podcast right now. We're looking at six different words for here. And so one means here at this location or point in time, one means here. This way around here or here about
But there's another one. That also means here here about around here and they give this whole paper is just about trying to figure out when to use one versus another. There's a fourth term that means right here, or at this place close at hand. Another one that means here at this place and then yet another that says here at this place or point in time, which very much overlaps with the first one I read So six different words.
And yeah, it's very intense. And so this entire really this entire article and I can link to it when I actually post this and Patreon. I'll link to this article. Because they argue that really, it's like if you look at the number of terms for these demonstrative it's incredibly overwhelming, but they show that there's a sort of topology and a sense to it and like they even give you like these tables. To do like You know, you have this particular prefix means this particular thing.
And it has this you know proximate or distal kind of feature. So anyway, it's like, it's sort of a mix and match bag if you will have like six or seven different features being coded and you put the features together to get the meaning that it creates But I'm just, I was blown away because like when I think of demonstrative I think have to weigh three way distinction, maybe for away but like I don't. I've never actually created a con line with more than a three way distinction
David J. Peterson: And this is this is a three way distinction. Right. It's just a three a three way distinction on top, right, that has more distinctions as you get further down Within it, which I found interesting because walls specifically codes it as a five or more way distinction, so I don't know within walls because unfortunately with The information on walls, you can tell, like how it's coded, but you don't know the specifics about it. They just tell you like it fits in this feature.
And so I wanted to, like, I didn't have enough time to really read through this whole article, but I wanted to see because down below it late in the conclusion they specifically say it is a six way distinction, but I can't figure out exactly how In terms of how they're they're doing that. So this is just something that I need to read more about I just found it. Cool. Have you ever made anything with a large Distinction and income links. David J. Peterson: I mean, probably, I just don't remember.
The problem when you make too many complaints. David J. Peterson: I mean, yeah, that's exactly what I done David J. Peterson: Goodness. So yeah, that's and also one of the reasons that I have long been fascinated by Navajo specifically Is because I did, we did learn a little bit more about the Navajo people in history in my history classes, you know, K through 12 kind of education.
Partially because of world war two and the Navajo code. Code Talkers. The wind talkers and so like that to me. I found really really interesting, especially given the fact that they like They had Navajo speakers put these military terms into Navajos. And not only did you have to be able to speak Navajo which like nobody could break that code in the first place. But then if you actually translated it it was things like
The word for like a certain kind of armored vehicle was actually they called it a turtle because it had like a show on it. And so like they use Navajo words that Even if you knew what they were saying. You still had to match them to what they actually meant in the sort of army lingo. And so anyway, like
If you don't know anything about the Navajo Code Talkers. I highly suggest looking it up because I found that really, really interesting. And it made me more interested in knowing about the language, even as a, as a young scholar. Although I still obviously don't know everything about it. David J. Peterson: I think so, yeah, I mean go Ahead. Oh, thank you. Do a lingo has a Navajo course, I believe. David J. Peterson: Yes, it does. Yes, it does. The owl on your shirt.
Yeah. David J. Peterson: No, but like I wonder how they do it. David J. Peterson: I have to give that a look because I've always wondered how they do the highly lucrative ones, at least for the verbs. How would you teach that I had to go. Good. That's a good question. Yeah. And Speaking of language with interesting verbs. Let's go on to language to David J. Peterson: Alright.
Alright so here are the facts about this language, and of course if you're listening along at home, try to play along and figure out which language. I'm talking about Oh, and I will say, I'll give this little hint I did choose for my three languages. I chose from different geographical regions, just so that way I could kind of spread out across the country. Okay.
So this language has an average consonant inventory and an average value inventory leaving it with a moderately high consonant to value ratio. It has voicing contracts in the frickin lives, but does not have any voice. In contrast, in places.
And it's voiceless stop series also includes aspirated on aspirated and objective stops. So, so far, those features are in line with Navajo it contrasts though oral and nasal Val qualities. It's syllable structure is complex and it does not have any tune This language is also SOV word order with post positions. It's adjectives appear after nouns as well. But it's demonstrative can actually appear before or after noun. So there are some sort of
Grammatical considerations that have to be made, which I'd have to look into more to understand what they are. It's numbers appear after noun. So if you're counting nouns, it would be dogs three just like dogs. Beautiful. And it has a three way distinction and it's demonstrative system it's pronouns do not carry any gender distinctions
And it's nouns have very few inflections. So for instance, it does not work for case and even plurality is indicated on its own word rather than as any sort of a fix or other marketing on the noun itself.
On the other hand, it's verbs can be marked for upwards of 10 to 11 inflections, and yet it has no past tense or future tense for its for marketing and it has no grammatical marketing for perfect or imperfect of aspects. So all those inflections things And this language uses productive full and partial re duplication and differentiates committed to from instrumental It's family.
Is suing. And it's genus is course suing David J. Peterson: Lakota yeah Indeed, see, I didn't want to give family away first because it's like David J. Peterson: Sure. See when languages. Would you have guessed. David J. Peterson: Well, speaking of a language. I thought I knew a little bit about cheese. Isn't that. Okay. And so here I've got a couple of things that I actually copied again from the Wikipedia article, sometimes they have really good sources on there. But
Two of the things about the birds because verbs in particular. I was like, okay, I need to figure out what all these inflection all possibilities are if it's not doing what I would think of for verb inflections And so it says that one set of more fields indicate person and number of the subject of active verbs.
And then they have a different set of morphine that agree with the object of transitive action verbs or the subject of state of verbs and so that seems to be potentially kind of tripartite kind of system. The way that's broken out
It says that most of those more themes are prefixes but plural subjects are marked with a suffix and third person plural objects within in fix. And I was like, what, and they giving samples to these paradigms, but I was like oh my gosh, I would It would take me forever to figure out how to say a statement and Lakota First Person arguments may be singular dual or plural.
But second, and third person arguments are only either singular or plural. And then there are also a number of in clinic particles that followed the verb. Which many of which actually differ depending on whether the speaker is male or female. And so be included. So rather than an inflection necessarily marked on the verb. The end clinics or what would then differentiates certain aspects and moods and things like that.
And they also the interactive in clinics, they actually show finer distinctions in meaning and so they have one that's just the usual question marking in clinic. But then a different one for rhetorical questions and one for Do you potato live like a tag question in English do potatoes. Where do we get these words in linguistics. David J. Peterson: Derivative, it comes from doubt.
Right. But like, why not just call it the doubtful WHA instead of deep additive while David J. Peterson: The doubtful. The end of the actual including is was so that's where I got that from but it's just Interesting to me how we come up with these. Okay. But anyway, so that that That is such a perfect one to for marketing doubt. Um, so yeah, so that is the information on Lakota. Now, you said you you thought you knew. Did you study Lakota or David J. Peterson: Not super a lot
David J. Peterson: But I was familiar with it from. Well, of course, but this book has its own kind of David J. Peterson: Controversial history doesn't it Black Elk speaks really really enjoyed that book, which features you know Lakota in it. But then at the same time, it was supposed to be taking on the story as remembered by, you know, very old man at that point blackout. David J. Peterson: Taken down by somebody else and then
David J. Peterson: Okay, I can't remember exactly what it was, but the sense was that they both of them. Understood. I kind of what the purpose was. And so it was more like he was recounting his own history, but perhaps kind of like David J. Peterson: guiding it in a certain way as to, like, as to make a point. Anyway, so it's it's accuracy is in doubt, but David J. Peterson: I mean, before I knew that I thought it was really amazing.
So I I didn't actually Really yeah yeah um And I didn't Take it. When I was in Colorado, but one of the scholars on Lakota is David rude. And he was teaching at University of Colorado, while I was there. And so when he did field methods. He used the Lakota speaker and so students were working on Lakota when they did it. Now, I Took my field methods class and in case any of you are unfamiliar field methods as a course. What, what it does is a speaker will come in.
And as students, you have to elicit data. And so it's meant to mimic field work but you know obviously in a classroom setting where somebody's helping guide you through like Whether. These are good questions to be asking or how to form questions and So anyway, when I took it. I actually didn't have it when David taught it. I had it when signet phrasing or thought it and he brought in a speaker of a language called Cafe. No, no, which is spoken in parts of Ethiopia and so
Which was a fascinating language. So like I'm Totally fine with that. It's just it I didn't get the Lakota experience that so many other people who went to see you had because they did take it with a different David J. Peterson: Should have taken it again. Yeah, but when you're counting hours and trying to get a certain Trying to get a certain number of classes taken under certain prefixes and whatnot. You know, sometimes that just doesn't Yeah. Because yeah, I was actually
David J. Peterson: I don't know anything about the sun language you you've taken. You've, you've been holding out on me again. We we apparently have to talk more about my grad school work. Yeah, it was very interesting class obviously very challenging if you've never thought about trying to do any sort of field methods or field work. It's, it's difficult to try to figure out, like, what, what data to elicit to figure out patterns, without making too many big assumptions.
Because then the next thing you know you you think you know what certain markers, but then you're totally wrong because you just assumed that it was like how English categorizes things. It's just, you know, It's just really interesting David J. Peterson: Well, I mean, another way to go about it though is to start with, you know, start with making assumptions, but keeping an open mind, you know,
David J. Peterson: So it's almost like, here is my assumption based on everything I've ever seen. I, I assume this let's try to elicit some data that would show that that's false. David J. Peterson: Round. David J. Peterson: You know, and then. But of course, you know, the more data you can get, the more helpful it is because David J. Peterson: Figuring out the right questions is sometimes hard Right.
David J. Peterson: By the way, this, this, this should be this should be a future episode of this where we we talk about grad school. It could be, it could be called mistakes we made What mistakes did I make David J. Peterson: I mean, David J. Peterson: By your degree obviously none. David J. Peterson: But you could humor me Yes, yes, good humor. Now I actually, I feel very lucky. And this is a conversation for another day. But I do feel very lucky because like the exact year that I came in.
And started doing specifically started working on doctoral level classes was like the one year span where they actually offered these More advanced like semantics and syntax courses that normally weren't offered and so like I got to take these classes that people who had been there for years, couldn't take and I was actually only at The University taking classes for three years. And so I managed to like get all these classes, other people are like,
I've been waiting for years for that to come up. So I was very, very lucky with how just the timing played out. I'm trying to think. And that is right. I would have only 344 or 556 and then we would have moved David J. Peterson: Did you finish your degree remotely. Yeah, because we move to Buffalo. So Chris, could start his PhD and so I David J. Peterson: I mean, three years to we were there for the exact same three years.
David J. Peterson: I mean, David J. Peterson: Oh wow, different school, of course. Right. And I'm trying to For some reason. The math doesn't feel like it's working. But that has to be right and wow this is such an interesting thing to be doing on a podcast, because Yeah, like I'm literally just counting on my fingers to figure out what year was there. So, I'm sorry, but at the same time. I'm like, wait, 344556 I must have been there for six, seven. So for four years.
Doing coursework. It's just some of my coursework. I had to do independent studies because I had a child. So I wasn't on campus. So that's why I was thinking that part of the time was I was gone there. Okay, that's all. Neither here nor there. That's another day's discussion, we'll talk grad school and just dive in on that another day. We have one more language. Before you teach me some Hawaii, Ian. Okay, okay, this language.
Flip from the others has a small consonant inventory, with an average value inventory. So it actually has a low, consonant, vowel ratio. It does not have any voice. In contrast, in either places or forgives and it contrasts Orland nasal vows, but
Only for two. So it only has two nasal vowels that are from the mic and interestingly enough there at that sort of made height. So they're the end all are the two that can be nasal nothing else, and not be a David J. Peterson: Yes, yeah vs and me versus Exactly and The rest of them are not phony MC
It does not have any tone and it stresses a weight sensitive system that is right oriented, so it appears, and one of the last three syllables of the word with or so. Yeah. One of the last three syllables in the word with a lambic rhythm. And so it's not always consistent which syllable because its weight sensitive David J. Peterson: Hmm.
And this language has no dominant word order something we're going to talk more about because I actually found this really interesting paragraph about that and is a nominative accusative language. It does not inflict for past Tense but it does have an inflection for future tense. This language has three genders. And it's word for finger in hand, are the same, but the word for hand and arm are different. This one I have less information on I forgot to tell you the family.
This will help, but there will still be some bigger languages that you could know from within it the family is your coin. David J. Peterson: Go. And genus is Northern Iroquois and And I have a personal connection with this one to you based on where I've lived David J. Peterson: Right. Because this language would have been spoken in areas for one of the places where I lived. Long Beach. The country. David J. Peterson: No, said like I i have to say this one has me absolutely buffalo.
Oh, but You use For the place And there's really no way I can give another clue without just saying David J. Peterson: Yeah, sure. It is Seneca And so there are a lot of in the buffalo area like there's Seneca Falls and there's a lot of like cinema good names that pop up and so
I had seen the name and what I didn't realize until I had done more research on it was. I didn't realize that Seneca was actually one of the languages of the euro coin and people's Probably because anytime I ever read about your coin or your coin people It's always presented in our history books as like one group, right, like so. I think until I research more I thought that you're a coin was just like
There would be one euro coin language or something like that, right, like I just thought of them as one group. And actually there are seven pretty Okay, I won't say big, but there are like seven different languages that I had at least heard of Associated in this Uruguayan family. And so just another way that our history books like totally butcher, the way we learn history because it like fails to distinguish the fact that it's not just like one group of people. It's actually multiple
multiple groups. And so this one because it's got that no dominant word order. And so here's something I found out about it because what two things, really. So I'm going to read you two paragraphs. And then one I'm going to screen share because I have to show you this beautiful table. Okay.
I'm like, I'm so excited. Okay, so, Seneca has no dominant word order. Unfortunately, on the Wikipedia article they say no free word order which I can have another discussion on that entirely for why I Like that. You know, if the whole free word order thing. Yeah. Rather new information appears first in a cynic a sentence. So when a noun is judged by the Speaker to be more newsworthy than a verb in the same sentence, it's likely to appear before the verb.
If it doesn't hold that relevance, though it typically follows the verb particles. The only cynical words that cannot be classified as nouns are verbs appear to follow the same ordering paradigm And so I found that interesting in terms of, you know, the newsworthiness and relevance to the situation, but also that that little line right there that particles are the only cynical words that cannot be classified as nouns or verbs.
I find that fascinating. And I want to know more about that and see if it's actually This may be, this may be why they have some amazing derivations and so I'm like, I'm now inspired and we need to figure out how to get some of these derivations just hooked into the possum language or something.
So a noun can be incorporated into a verb base by placing it before the middle voice or reflexive prefix. So there's like all these different ways that you can actually incorporate even nouns into the verbs and Seneca And then they have derivation of suffixes that can be added at the end of a base noun to alter the meaning of the verb that it's incorporated in and I'm going to share this table.
And again from Wikipedia. Therefore, I need to find more information about it because you always got to verify. But they've got just this beautiful set of derivation or suffix is not all of them. This is just some examples. And of course, they all have wonderful names like ambulatory Additive Facilitated facilitated However, you say that, but they've got these great names and they give you know like kind of very specific meanings like the ambulance to suffix says that this happens while walking
Or the additive, it indicates the agent travels to a different location to perform the action like how handy, is that All. There's even one that indicates the event is imminent. It's going to happen, which they call additive plus purposive, how would you say that purpose of purpose you David J. Peterson: Know purpose of It sounds more fun to say propulsive so let's do it. David J. Peterson: I suppose also more fun to say a fix. I suppose
You don't. You don't like a fix you like affix don't you Yeah. Which you would think with my, my love for the ash. But for some reason, I always say a fix. And I don't know if it's because David J. Peterson: What's that the band a fixed when No, but but
I think it's because in class. Whenever I'm trying to distinguish for my students, the larger category like I really stress the a fix because I'm trying to get them to remember how to write it and spell it. I don't know why I don't just say affix I don't know. I don't know, but you also David J. Peterson: I mean it is right. David J. Peterson: Ah, fix All fix But I also feel like at this point. People know that I just say words, the way I say them. Yeah, so there you go.
David J. Peterson: Yeah, so these are these are verb. David J. Peterson: Prefixes right So they according to this, they're added at the end of a base noun, but Ok inside a verb. David J. Peterson: Yeah. That's what these are, but it's just, it's such a beautiful LIST, THERE'S THERE'S A reverses, you know, kind of like our own, an English benefactor distributed just all these Wonderful.
Little derivations. And so this could be why it's claimed that there's only nouns, verbs and particles, because if you have These kinds of derivations which would take over a lot of sort of adverb kind of things like I could see that they would also have a very rich sense of derivations to indicate more adjectives. These type things. David J. Peterson: Yeah, there is. There is so much in what I'm seeing and everything you've said that are just to MIT. To my mind, the hallmarks of Miss analysis.
OK, OK. And it may be David J. Peterson: We need is We need a this is David J. Peterson: We did grammar this language. David J. Peterson: This, this looks really cool. I, you know what, actually, after we're done talking. I'm going to see if I can find any freely available PDF kind of grammars that I could put up for these three languages in particular, like I know Navajo has a lot more Out about it because there is a lot more information. And like I said, do a lingo. You can take a course that
Lakota I know has a lot of information. But I don't know how much of it is electronically available. And I don't know much about Seneca, so like that is. Yeah, this one. David J. Peterson: I'm going to spend some time looking at that. That's really cool. So, but even if it's Miss analysis, even if, like there's some great derivations and Didn't get around in in in gala. We didn't get around to making too many derivation. So like, I'm hoping this time we have more time. To get into that.
David J. Peterson: It's kind of, it's kind of a weird thing because it's like, that's part of the fun but you know there's so much pressure to fill out the grammar and because David J. Peterson: Yeah, we're watching and yapping Yes. And it's also difficult because when you are trying to do things like incorporate specific name forums like to get, like, some of them. Luckily it came through like being able to get like the tendency Bay.
Where it's like that collective their rubbish. You know, like so, some of them, it was, it was more easily done. But sometimes it's also hard when you're trying to get words that you can say sentences, not necessarily Yeah. What are some nuances that we could build into the derivations David J. Peterson: And plus you sometimes you just want to spend time with those things. It's hard to do that type of thing, but I Don't think people just want to look at us, staring at our computer screens.
David J. Peterson: I do David J. Peterson: But David J. Peterson: So I should be clear when I say that when I say that there are lots of things in there that I think they look this analyze. First of all, I don't know, you got to look at it. Second of all, I mean, it's never the data that's wrong. The data is never wrong. Right. David J. Peterson: It's, it's the linguists David J. Peterson: We're, we're up to monkey business like like David J. Peterson: Like the Darling ever wrong.
David J. Peterson: Like the Darling, you know, Wikipedia article that states that like English has seven different Horta tubes and it's also the language that so happens to distinguish each of those separate seven different alternatives. It's like I think they took that down now and I'm actually going to Be David J. Peterson: A better half that was Because I swear, we had this conversation before when we were talking about the horn. Yeah. And I was like, I'm pretty sure they have fixed that.
David J. Peterson: It's just like, sometimes you see these things in grammars where it says, Look, there are seven things that this language distinguishes. And it just so happens that only the language. I'm studying distinguishes it and I get to come up with terms for it. David J. Peterson: It's like, huh, huh. Okay, so it appears That they still do say that we have quite a few of them. But I think it's expressed better. So for instance, They give examples of, like, let us
Go vs have got to express obligation and a lot of these are like each it starts getting into. We just got so many paragraphs that constructions in English that it's so hard for me when people want to label it as, you know, this is operative. This is imperative. This is where additive I don't know, a lot of it's just how we use these but I'm also I was Also educated at a construction grammar institutions. So, you know, David J. Peterson: Well, in terms of construction.
David J. Peterson: It would be kind of like, I mean, it's just the type of bizarre thing where you say that you know English is the only language that has a a commentated counterfactual David J. Peterson: Which is David J. Peterson: A which is a special verb form that is only used by sports commentators when narrating high lights. David J. Peterson: Where it's a special use of the present tense.
David J. Peterson: To indicate a counterfactual David J. Peterson: But again, only sports commentators and only when narrating highlights and it's just like, Well, I'm not sure that you've discovered a new grammatical category there. David J. Peterson: It's David J. Peterson: Just a way that David J. Peterson: You know, That we've agreed.
To mark these Yeah. So okay, so I did not leave as much time as I thought if we're going for our normal our range but like i would love To know A little something about Hawaii and David J. Peterson: Yeah. Oh, sorry. I, I often forget that we're supposed to keep this to a certain time. But then we also have things to do. You know that too. So You know I David J. Peterson: keep forgetting. David J. Peterson: But yeah, I mean, do you know most of the, the basic stuff about Hawaiian
So one of the main features that always comes up in my mind when I think of the language is the fact that it has very few consonants and its vowels can differentiate for length. This, I believe, like there's long and short. By chance, Okay. David J. Peterson: That you wouldn't know that if you got the first teacher self book that I got. Oh, no.
David J. Peterson: No. Oh, it was, it was a doozy. They just David J. Peterson: Didn't even acknowledge that there were long vowels in Hawaiian David J. Peterson: Because I guess they thought you would just know It out. It's is David J. Peterson: Elsa didn't always write the glottal stop. Only certain time. David J. Peterson: Oh yeah, it's gotten better. Yeah yeah David J. Peterson: So Hawaiian exists in this group with pollination. That's very David J. Peterson: Similar to
David J. Peterson: romance in that if you look at the various Romance languages. It's very clear, you're basically looking at the same language with David J. Peterson: Differing you know grammatical features. And then, you know, David J. Peterson: Different phonological features.
David J. Peterson: So, David J. Peterson: If you look at Hawaiian and Tongan and Samoan David J. Peterson: And Maori you'll see basically the same language with with with with with minor grammatical and lexical variations David J. Peterson: But, and each of them does have a small continent inventory. It's just a matter of how they do it. David J. Peterson: You should isn't isn't in there. So it's like if you look at the the proto language, or at least that the proto form proto politician, right.
David J. Peterson: The the the continent inventory it distinguished R amp L it distinguished and an angle it distinguished S f and h. And then it also had a PT and k and a glottal stop. David J. Peterson: And all of the various Polynesian languages have done different things. David J. Peterson: To them. David J. Peterson: So it's like if you look at Maori it merged l&r but it merged it into our Hawaiian had a lot of mergers. So what happened is why and merged R and L and L.
David J. Peterson: Hawaiian deleted. It's globules completely David J. Peterson: Which was one of the huge things David J. Peterson: For Hawaiian so it deleted. It's glottal stop and and deleted its global frickin have just completely gone and that left a gap and that initiated a pool chain. David J. Peterson: So what happened was the absence of the glottal stop.
David J. Peterson: Allowed the K to drift backwards and K drifted backwards to the glottal stop and allowed tea to drink backwards to K and leaving a blank spot at T. There are certain dialects of wine that's still have tea. David J. Peterson: As an alternate for 4K, but the lane one has split it. And that's where the pool chain stopped. So it didn't pull P back to tea or anything like that.
Did the same thing happened to happen with the frickin lives because another thing that I do know about Hawaii. IS that medically key maka is literally Merry Christmas, but rendered in the sounds that they have available to them in the language. And so, like all the SS are gone. And so that interesting. Okay. David J. Peterson: It should have been. I mean, in my opinion, it might. Did I should say that yes
David J. Peterson: That's okay. Since we have Lee edit this podcast fuel and David J. Peterson: I would have done it as merely car leaky Maha David J. Peterson: Okay, but I don't know. I guess the, I guess the core. Well, it was an old sound change. And so really what they're trying to get is the core analogy of the S. Yeah yeah David J. Peterson: In the, in the best you can do with that.
David J. Peterson: Well, preserving the voiceless. Mrs. K. It's a little bit further forward than ah but s and F in Hawaiian merged into he after he was deleted. David J. Peterson: Okay. And so that's what left it so sparse and so like you get something like in Samoan is a low fat for lover. Hello. And so it becomes Aloha and hope in Hawaiian David J. Peterson: By the way, with that promo sound in there. Isn't it kind of close to love a lot I think so. I think so.
And in fact, I'm pretty sure that that means that it was English at some point. Love it when people like try to make Yeah, like there was one argument that bask was related to, I think it was like Bantu languages.
Because the word for water with similar and You know, like as linguists, we're all just like shaking our heads like what, why wait and That would be similar, where it's like, oh no. Oh, it must have been related to, you know, all these English words in David J. Peterson: A pro a pro forma proto form for i in in Hawaiian is ma David J. Peterson: Ma TA, which is identical to Mata for i in Greek. And so, so it's obviously yes agree.
The world well Okay. So does that mean that the word for i in Hawaiian is maka Yes. Okay. David J. Peterson: There you go. David J. Peterson: Yeah. And so, Hawaii, and of course did does have the long and short Val distinction. It got more long vowels though after the David J. Peterson: After the model deletion. Okay. Also lot also a lot more Vivi sequences, but David J. Peterson: Were they were identical. It resulted in long vowels.
David J. Peterson: Yeah, but then in terms of grammatical quality wine is wonderful in that it's so it's a verb initial language. It's the so David J. Peterson: And the only time you see mixed up with that are in two scenarios one where there's negation, where the navigator is pulled out in front. And it's very similar to what we did in a gala. So it's like David J. Peterson: A gator now for now.
David J. Peterson: And then a class of verbs called low other herbs, which are verb, which are essentially David J. Peterson: It's a very small class of verbs, but it's like ordinarily what you have with a transitive verb in Hawaiian is a verb, noun. He. Noun David J. Peterson: Just the sound. He is just a little particle and it's just it's a preposition that comes before objects, but also indirect objects.
David J. Peterson: With these lot of herbs you get a verb like low and it's that verb, noun a noun. And then the EP down is the agent. Where's the first patient David J. Peterson: Yeah. So it's pretty cool, but it's it's really, it really is just a small class of verbs that you just have to memorize Do any of them have any semantic kind of distinctions, or is it literally just random David J. Peterson: Know you can you could tell like if you look at the
David J. Peterson: Most of the verbs like, oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. These form kind of a natural class, except for the verb. David J. Peterson: Law, which means like to steal or to take or something. It's seems very David J. Peterson: It's a very odd for that one. David J. Peterson: So I'm a Hawaiian, of course, makes heavy use of both partial and full rich application for many different purposes.
David J. Peterson: To the extent that they don't even list all of them in the dictionary, they are. It's just like, or the definition of this will just be for duplication at this you have to go and figure out how it's how it means Right. David J. Peterson: How the reunification affected it, which is kind of annoying. I prefer that they just say it like, especially now the digital age. We're not hurting for space here.
David J. Peterson: And then two of the more complex things in terms of the, I'll give you three three complex things in terms of wine and grammar. David J. Peterson: Because they have they distinguish lucidity for the first person nouns and there's singular and plural plural pronouns and that's cool. And then it has David J. Peterson: It does have definite articles.
David J. Peterson: So it has a singular definite article and then a plural definite article plural definite article, I think, is used just for all plurals and then also has an indefinite article. So that's kind of David J. Peterson: Very English It's like, it's like, yeah, it's familiar, but the three most difficult things for me are one is David J. Peterson: The verbs are often used in conjunction with a post verbal element. David J. Peterson: And they are both integrated into the
David J. Peterson: Larger TMA system, but also sometimes they're much more or derivation will where there are directional. So you have to learn the directional and kind of learn how they're used, and that's a lot of memorization and so that can be difficult. David J. Peterson: To is the causative prefix, which has many different forms. It can be ha is going to be hot, hot, cold, cold or or and so on.
David J. Peterson: And so a lot of different very similar obviously phonological a dependent alternates that you have Right, right. David J. Peterson: And the causative prefix is used a ton. And it's not always just basically causative so it's a tiger, then we just have to learn. It's like, what David J. Peterson: What it means David J. Peterson: A lot of memorization like that kind of similar to Russian perfect prefixes.
David J. Peterson: And then there is the passive suffix. The passive suffix attaches directly to an old route into that means that a consonant, that is no longer there will reappear sometime David J. Peterson: Okay, so you just have to memorize, which it is, and then Second feel like can we step back From that for just one second, because I feel like you really like that strategy, you're
Claiming. It's one of the most difficult things, which it is, but like I also feel like that shows up in a lot of your con lanes. And so I feel like that's something that you majorly appreciate We can move on. After that, I just wanted to point that out.
David J. Peterson: It's, it's one of the things that's most beautiful and language. I mean, just the fact that you have these really weird patterns that sometimes you have to memorize and sometimes seem to hint at either deeper structure or a history that you can no longer access David J. Peterson: That's the cool thing. David J. Peterson: I mean, if it was all just very cookie cutter than what would be the point, it wouldn't be fun.
David J. Peterson: Anyway, but yeah. Also the semantics of it sometimes get weird. Like, you can add that prefix to the lower of herbs and Ken a basic transitive for Okay, so it's sort of Interesting. I was going to try to put a name to it, but I'm not even going to, but you can add this what you had said was like a passive prefix. David J. Peterson: Yeah. With it's like Everywhere.
David J. Peterson: Everywhere. Yeah. And it turns it into a transitive style for okay David J. Peterson: Yeah, if I'm yeah yes it does. David J. Peterson: And then David J. Peterson: It could also be added to certain intransitive verbs and it does you know things. So it's kind of like there is it like in order to really learn the language and to speak it into use it effectively. There is a lot of memorization involved in terms of how words are used.
David J. Peterson: And comparatively speaking not much to learn when it comes to the actual grammatical alterations, or things like that. David J. Peterson: Okay, um, it's really a small number of things that are fairly manageable and then after that, it's like okay this is exactly how the grammar works. You say, Okay, so then I can say this. No, that's not what it means. David J. Peterson: Since well for a while. But That is great. So, and that's, I think, one of the
Funniest parts of, you know, learning language. You just got to not be afraid. I guess to say really off the wall things because something's gonna go wrong. And we actually have a friend who is Bulgarian and he's a cellist And so we have gone to see him perform and afterwards I wanted To tell him that it was a beautiful concert. And so, you know, I have Google Translate in my pocket. Figure this out.
So, right. So I went up to him after the concert And I told him what I Thought meant Beautiful concert in Bulgarian and he came to the weirdest look and it took him a minute because you know he knows English well enough that David J. Peterson: Like He was able to figure out What What I met but the word that I use can only be used to call somebody Handsome and so it like I think at first he was like trying to figure out if I was calling him handsome during the cons.
Like what was going on. But yeah, you apparently weren't supposed to do that. So you've totally froze. By the way, are you back. David J. Peterson: Let David J. Peterson: Let me tell you what I just experienced because it's kind of fun. David J. Peterson: You, you said and I, of course, said Google Translate and so BUZZ BUZZ BUZZ robot robot robot robot robot and then basically, the last thing you said where it's like, well, obviously, that was something you were supposed to do.
Exactly. David J. Peterson: That was, that was it. Well, I think that the record. Probably picked up what I was saying. So I'll tell you. About that that would be enough. I think though this may be an appropriate time to wrap up. today's podcast and to your internet has been, it has been. I've been watching the bars go yellow and red much more frequently here near the end. So it may be signal, yet it's ready to give up.
But I'm glad it stuck out this long and that we were able to talk today about some amazing languages that we have here. Here. I was like, I feel like I was gonna say something else. But I have no idea what David J. Peterson: So I still waiting with bated breath. And I'll just repeat my last word until I figure out where I'm going. Thank you for listening, along with us today and we hope you enjoyed and stay grammar. David J. Peterson: Right. David waved Oh, where's my recording. There it is.