LangTime Chat, Episode 11: Conlang Pedagogy

We our first guess was March 1, this will be aired on January 1 David J. Peterson: February 1 will Be yeah David J. Peterson: Yes, I got it now. I'm, I'm happy to introduce you to the calendar. You're welcome David I'm not great at it. I'm not great at it. I'm not gonna lie calendars has never been my strong suit. This is where you need me.

David J. Peterson: You know, when David J. Peterson: When you know the calendar that, by the way, none of your students found in the D amp D class that we did right Right, yeah. David J. Peterson: Yeah, nobody found that the hidden the hidden links I created a calendar for my D amp D world which is which is perfect. In other words, it has

David J. Peterson: There aren't there aren't your tunes know there's only one mode. I didn't, I didn't mess around with two months because I knew, I knew about the book. So yeah, so one moon, but every single month has David J. Peterson: 35 days. Okay.

David J. Peterson: And every single week has five days or was it's no I think it's five days. Yeah, every single week has five days and then there's a leftover month at the end month right that just has, however, many leftover days there and How's that perfect David J. Peterson: Oh no, it's perfect in that there's just one small month that has between one and five days depending on you know leap years in the lunar cycle right

So why not just extend the final month and just say this last month has 36 to 41 days. David J. Peterson: Because that extra very small month is just a celebration week Okay. Okay, so that's that's really why you think it's perfect, but it's really David J. Peterson: Not so perfect. If you're in a year where it's like, oh, it's a one day week Yay.

David J. Peterson: Yeah, I mean, back to back to Monday or David J. Peterson: Bell Shay, I think, is the first word is the word for Monday in that one. Sure. Nice. Okay, so I now know what your definition of a perfect year is Yes, I'm glad we have that covered I would like To tell our listeners that today is a special episode. Because not only is it number 11 which is always fun right good number. I prefer odd numbers, by the way, in case you're wondering. It's one of those preferences.

And today, David is taking charge And He's just nodding like oh wait, that means I have to talk So it's gonna be a very quiet episode as I stare at him waiting to tell me what we're talking about. David J. Peterson: To tell you what I was thinking about David J. Peterson: Drinking Water is down on the table. David J. Peterson: Because when you said that I was just in my mind. I was like, ooh. David J. Peterson: And it was waiting back to watch

Okay, this isn't. This is also the episode where we learn that David is really two people. And one of them knows that they are doing something today. The other one is like, oh, I Can't wait. Okay. David J. Peterson: Okay, alright, alright. So for today's topic. This was one. This was kind of a, this is kind of a meteor one that I wanted to dig into

David J. Peterson: But it seems like an obvious one, so obvious that I had to go back to each of our podcast to make sure that we hadn't discussed this already. Because I wouldn't put it past me to forget about it and then be really, really embarrassed when I set this David J. Peterson: Up and you just said, like we did that, three months ago. In Episode four David J. Peterson: Yep, so David J. Peterson: What I wanted to talk about was con legging pedagogy.

David J. Peterson: Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's right there, you know, and so I just thought it would be cool to like really dig into it. David J. Peterson: And and of course we have we have our own personal history with it. And then I have my recent history with this so David J. Peterson: A little bit of background. David J. Peterson: I was So you totally For David J. Peterson: Just a second. Marion do you David J. Peterson: Wells Jensen.

So you totally froze. I don't your Your video is 100% frozen and I missed a big chunk of what you said. Yeah, yeah. Now you're moving again you're moving again. I did hear the words speculative grew Marion though. And sherry was Jensen, like, That's literally all I heard David J. Peterson: Okay, I mean of course it was going to happen right then we Yes.

David J. Peterson: We've had remarkable luck with the podcasts. I think given you know internet and technology. But of course, it had to cut out right then. So David J. Peterson: Going back to our speculative grim area days many, many, many moons ago. Do you know, Sherry wells Jensen. No, no. However, am I aware of the name. Do I know the name. Yes.

David J. Peterson: Okay. So Sherry was Jensen is a is a con Langer and also a professor of linguistics. Well, linguistics, she's a professor of English because they don't have a linguistics department at Bowling Green State University. The one in Ohio, not the Bowling Green in Kentucky. The one I meant to David J. Peterson: And the first place I knew about her. Was she contributed in an article to speculative remarry. And as a Braille Encoding of cling on

David J. Peterson: Because she is. She's also blind and been blind for many, many years and ukulele player. David J. Peterson: Anyway, so David J. Peterson: We got to know each other with spec RAM. She was one of the she was the alternate when we did the death rocky competition.

Which. That's right. Yeah. David J. Peterson: Which I don't even understand why there wasn't alternate should have just been called a finalist, but they called her an alternate for some reason. And then she dropped out because David J. Peterson: While she was excited about the prospect of, you know, professional counseling and she found David J. Peterson: That subject matter of a song of ice and fire to be too violent and objectionable. And honestly, she wasn't wrong.

David J. Peterson: But, but she did amazing work, she also was a finalist for the next job that we ran for Noah. David J. Peterson: The movie Noah. Right, what David J. Peterson: Russell Crowe. David J. Peterson: Anyway, so, so we've known each other for a bit and she was going to be participating in a panel at the LX Marriott you know right nearby.

David J. Peterson: With a group called METI METI and that stands for messaging extraterrestrial intelligence. Unlike SETI, which is the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence David J. Peterson: And apparently this group METI they like meet every so often and talk about what it might be like to message aliens. David J. Peterson: And I thought, Well, that's interesting. And she invited me to give a talk at their symposium.

David J. Peterson: And I was like, well, okay, I'll do something with this. David J. Peterson: Totally random backstory for extra credit when I took David J. Peterson: It was an astronomy course at Berkeley to fulfill a breath requirement.

David J. Peterson: For extra credit. We could go to a meeting that was going to be held at Berkeley, a one day symposium called the stress Astronomical Society to Pacific and so that whatever and I get there and the Astronomical Society. This the Pacific is nothing but David J. Peterson: Talking about searching for aliens. So, like, I mean, doesn't sound like it but I I sat through right like David J. Peterson: Yeah, I sat through like six or seven scholarly talks on the search for aliens.

David J. Peterson: And I know a lot more than I did before. David J. Peterson: By the way, I'd like that. That's your summary. I know a lot more David J. Peterson: So there's actually a date is coming up in 2002 not you know right away, but in seven years and David J. Peterson: They said that

David J. Peterson: They have a specific way of searching for aliens that they're using. I think it was radio telescope or something like that. And they said, David J. Peterson: In 25 years we will either have discovered, you know, alien life in a galaxy or discovered that there's none or David J. Peterson: Or we will have reached the limits of this technology. David J. Peterson: So, David J. Peterson: Okay 2027 Oh that's coming up really fast.

Yeah. Wow. David J. Peterson: I haven't heard anything yet, but we found water on them on Mars didn't I think so. That's Something David J. Peterson: Yeah. I don't know. Matt Damon was able to grow potatoes, somehow, yeah. Amazing. David J. Peterson: Movie was tense. I didn't expect it to be tense, it should be, you know, funny and really kind of like, cool, but it gets really intense at the end. Yes, it does.

David J. Peterson: Yes. Good stuff. Anyway, so. Alright, so I gave this talk, by the way, which was by him, which was basically saying, God, there was one of the talks was co authored by Noam Chomsky David J. Peterson: And David J. Peterson: And what I end this David J. Peterson: At this setting. Yes, yes. Are many not many. David J. Peterson: Many yeah David J. Peterson: I was actually slightly terrified that he was

David J. Peterson: Going to be there because I was like, what if he tries to talk to me. How do I restrain the hatred in my voice, but You got, you got it. Nevermind. I want he deserves some respect for what what he David J. Peterson: Did for the field, he moved the field forward 100 years and then set it back 100 years he deserves credit for that. But he gave he gave more visionaries, the leeway to do what they did, based on the moving forward part

David J. Peterson: He sure did. And he also inspired a lot of graduate students to do a lot of good work after they found flaws in his work His work in the end. He banished to them to lesser universities. David J. Peterson: As he's done again and again and again. And do you know what that may be a better mood for them. Sometimes the lesser University is a more welcome home. David J. Peterson: Certainly was George Lake off David Perlmutter anyway.

So okay, so you can you can feel how you want. I was just trying to be respectful. David J. Peterson: No on right David J. Peterson: That's honestly that's always the route to take. It's, it's rarely the route it take the route it because I usually open my stupid mouth and then regret it later. And then, you know, David J. Peterson: And then people hate me for it. And that's, that's kind of the way anyway. And then I just roll with it. David J. Peterson: Yeah.

David J. Peterson: And I need a strange existence. Anyway, okay, so David J. Peterson: Here's the point we're talking about climbing pedagogy. David J. Peterson: At this after we were done with the mentee meeting, we went and had like lunch afterwards and sherry was there and a couple of other people were there, including Jeff Penske was there. And so as we were talking, he was saying, oh, by the way, you know, we're doing this.

David J. Peterson: We're doing this book on coddling pedagogy and it's just immediately my old little David J. Peterson: My old burning hatred went from like zero to 1000 because I dare you, how dare you, my meeting for the first time, write a book on Conlon pedagogy and a I haven't heard of it and be nobody has told me about it until now due to this chance meeting.

David J. Peterson: Because it made me so mad because, of course, anytime something is happening with coddling I feel like the content and community should be a part of it. David J. Peterson: And I always define the coddling and community via Episode two is your remember as the original group, even though it's much bigger than that now so David J. Peterson: I You doing great with this, by the way. David J. Peterson: So I

David J. Peterson: Anyway, so I was talking to him and and and then I was basically interrogating. It was like, okay, so who's contributing to this because she was Jensen was contributing, which was good. David J. Peterson: But I was like, who's contributing to this, like, do you have, and I started listing like the first three names that come to my head, which are always Matt Pearson Doug ball and Jesse Sam's like

David J. Peterson: Are these people contributing, like, Well, yeah. Yeah, we do have Matt. But no, I didn't know about Doug ball and Jesse and like, Well, of course you didn't, because you're not keyed in to the community. David J. Peterson: Anyway, so David J. Peterson: Then, so I anyway I basically invited myself to contribute to this thing. David J. Peterson: And was then invited to contribute. David J. Peterson: You know, because I invited myself.

And so David J. Peterson: And so I ended up writing I ended up writing a chapter for this book that I thought was pretty good. David J. Peterson: But David J. Peterson: This was just the introduction. It's this is quite the introduction, like I'm waiting to see where we end up. I think we're up to the point where you're fully on topic on Yelling pedagogy. So, so that's good. David J. Peterson: Yeah, so like I contributor chapter this book. It came out recently it's been on my mind.

David J. Peterson: I did manage to get a couple of other people to contribute, but they never contacted you at all. David J. Peterson: No, it's just me straight Off. David J. Peterson: And I feel fine, saying that here because this is our own Patreon podcast which eventually, other people will be able to see, but they're not gonna so

David J. Peterson: Just looking at this and he and he's a good guy invited me to the, the Convention, they have over here, he introduced me to a cool board game that's fine. Got it pisses me straight off like Well, I feel like this may later use. You talk big now but in like eight months when this is released to everyone and he totally finds out he's mentioned, I don't know 28 times in this space like 15 minutes

He's going to listen and you may be like, Why did I open my mouth. Anyway, just just saying, I want you to mark this moment. Okay. David J. Peterson: Super 14th. Good. Got it. David J. Peterson: I, I feel like. And you know, it's not even because of the status. I have now in the Caitlyn community. I always feel like if I make a recommendation then whoever gets it must take it seriously because I made it. It was

David J. Peterson: My recommendation. How dare you not take it into consideration a and then be not act on it. David J. Peterson: Anyway, Sad existence. David J. Peterson: It is. Alright so that is that is that anyway so I anyway. But of course the entire reason that that we actually like are here is because of your class. Yeah, which is something that I find truly incredible

David J. Peterson: There have been a number of online classes, but you're suspended existence since. Since when was the first year 2011 2011 So this will mark the decade. David J. Peterson: Going into spring 2021 David J. Peterson: Spring 2021 will be 10 years that you've been teaching this class and

David J. Peterson: What makes it more remarkable, aside from its quality which sets it apart from others is is where you've done it. I mean, especially at the beginning. You didn't even have a linguistics department. David J. Peterson: Right, right. It was, it was an English department. David J. Peterson: And you sold this to them.

David J. Peterson: You said not only this tiny little linguistics program that we have not only should we be teaching you the other courses, but let me teach this, and I know that you have to think about this is 2011 2012 I David J. Peterson: Still feel like you have to say to me, you can see 2011 David J. Peterson: Spring. Semester. Yes, yes. David J. Peterson: So this is before Game of Thrones debuted

It. Yes. Because if I, if I remember correctly, I may have my years wrong. It was after avatar. So now up David J. Peterson: To that And so it was It was definitely like that was in the the sort of public awareness. So, because that movie actually kind of had a long lasting. Effect it. When did it when to Game of Thrones debut.

David J. Peterson: So the timeline works like this avatar came out in December 2009 David J. Peterson: And so there was like David J. Peterson: For me personally, because I got I got the job for Game of Thrones in October.

David J. Peterson: There was like two months where I was crazy excited. I was like, wow, I'm going to be the next Mark Coker and then avatar came out and I was like, well there goes that because they absolutely completely stole your thunder and it became like the big thing for con lightning.

David J. Peterson: And then in April of 2010 David J. Peterson: HBO agreed to let us run this press release saying that, you know, I've been hired to create the death rocky language, which caused a minor stir, but not really. David J. Peterson: Any really big. David J. Peterson: And then we finished filming on that show on that per season somewhere in 2010 and show would have debuted in May, I believe, of 2011 Okay, because I remember

So here's how my works. I knew that avatar come out. Well, at least I was fairly certain otherwise. My memory is just all miskin bubbled and that happens sometimes. But Avatar had come out in my students in my intro to linguistics class in the spring semester after it came out kept telling me about it. They're like, you have to see it. You have to see it.

And after I introduced a morphology exercise where students like create their own little basically they're just creating a nonce language just enough to create like a data set for someone else to figure out what's going on in the language pattern to see if they Understood the differences of

Of all the concepts they were supposed to remember. So like I would actually assign them like, Oh, you're going to have to use a fixation. To do this, you're going to have to use compounding. To do this, and so like they had to figure out How to like just create again just all fake all very regular but a data set for other people to identify

As a which was really fun. By the way, but when I gave that exercise to my students, I had a student come up to me and they're like, Okay, if you haven't seen avatar yet, you have to because like you just made us do this and there's this language. So I didn't see it until

Later in that semester. And when I saw it. That's when the idea actually came to me that wait like if this is such a big deal and everybody's talking about Navi. And my students really enjoyed this, you know, create your own data set thing. What would happen if I did like an entire semester and they had to do the whole language. And so I started pulling together ideas. I had to sell it.

By the end of that semester because in fall like the way that academic scheduling works. You have to submit usually By sep tember what you're going to be teaching in the spring. So like I had to have everything ready to go and argued before I could get it on the schedule and fall of 2010 or 2010 as you would prefer to call it. And so, like all of that happened really relatively quickly. And so That was, that was sort of the timeline that led up to being able to offer it the first time.

David J. Peterson: Okay, so let me dig into that a little bit actually. David J. Peterson: What what gave you the idea to do to do the problem set. That it was actually a prompt that at one point, I don't know if it's still a prompt in it, but in the language files and I was using the language files is the course book. And there was a prompt

In the exercises for the morphology set. And I don't know if it's only in the teachers edition. I don't know if it's still there, but it was just like this offhand paragraph, like, oh, if you want to see if students really understand have them create their own data set. And I can't remember what the exact problem was I can't even tell you if I were in my campus office. I could try to find your Old addition I was using that semester and try to

Tell you more. But that's all I remember was that there was this prompt and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna run with this and like So I made that into an entire assignment for my students and it turned into like an in class day because they exchange the data sets in class and actually work them together in groups and And gave feedback, especially were like, oh, you said this morphine, does this thing, which I know your favorite word morphine.

But it's like you say it does this thing, but in the translation. It doesn't quite match. When you do, you know, go from here to here. So it was really a way to show that they not only understood the concepts, but also understood, like the meaning differences that should be applied if you're saying you know this this little piece. Does this certain job, can you actually show that it does that job in the dataset.

David J. Peterson: Even add an assignment is better than the stuff I usually did dang really good at facilitating group work, by the way. David J. Peterson: Which is something I've been very, very bad at historically just teaching like even in English like freshman composition. It really felt tacked on and I think that comes from my deep hatred of doing group work.

But the point, though, is that When you, when you do facilitate group work, it's never for a great and I think that's your deep hatred. Because if it's not for a grade and the whole goal is just for you guys to go back and forth and for you to bring your own work and then to bring their own work. And so like

You know, work together and figure things out from there. I think it gets a lot better. I never okay take that back. I have in the past, just because I really didn't want to grade that many papers I have done for that reason. But for my linguistics classes I've really shied away from ever having any Graded group work, and if I ever did. It was very clear where it was like, listen, you're going to do this presentation together, but like, you're going to submit to me what you did.

And you get graded only on your part. Like I don't I don't grade the whole group together because of that because you and I I know at some point have talked, maybe not on the podcast. So we'll tell everybody out there listening, neither David nor I ever liked group work in school because we both

Are a bit of control freaks, maybe. Um, but also, like, at some point, the other students like, Oh, you're going to do the work. So, here you go. And then everybody gets your grade that you worked really hard for David J. Peterson: Mm hmm. David J. Peterson: Very frustrating. But anyway, that's, that's something to keep in mind if I if I go back to teaching one day, which I assume I will It'll probably David J. Peterson: Yeah, okay.

Well, I'm waiting for a university to just reach out to you and say, you know, here's the professor emeritus position, kind of thing. David J. Peterson: Finally, like here's here's just like a fake pH a fake honorary PhD and a fake honorary title, just do stuff. Let me do that. David J. Peterson: Someday anyway. David J. Peterson: Okay, so that's now let me ask a kind of a similar question in a separate way. So you've been a con longer though this entire time. David J. Peterson: You had

David J. Peterson: Okay, I'm sorry. So this is a 2010 year teaching. When did you start at SF Bay. In 2009 fall of 2009 David J. Peterson: Okay, so it really hadn't been that long. David J. Peterson: Yeah. So I was brand new, and by the way that sastre there was not yet a linguistics program. I am that person who was hired. And then same semester said, Hey, I'm going to create a minor

And they went with it. Like, I can't even tell you how crazy that is because the number of people I know, who've been hired And like three, four or five years later, are still fighting like hell to get a linguistics minor program certificate anything And literally, I walked in the door and within a month of meeting. Everybody laid down my plan and was like, here we go. Here's what we need to do, which, by the way, requires creating like five new courses.

David J. Peterson: Is incredible David J. Peterson: Yeah, I didn't know that. David J. Peterson: I, oh sorry, I thought that the linguistics program was there. I thought that's why you were hired that's Reasonable I was hired to teach the four classes they had on the books. And the only reason they were on the books was because they fulfilled degree requirements for other programs. And so it was basically they had an intro class. They had structures of English.

They had a topics in linguistics, which they're like that hasn't been taught in so long. We don't even know what to do with it and history, the English language. And so those were the four classes I was given to start and at the very beginning. They had even

They basically said, Really, the only two classes that have been offered in years were structures of English and history in English language. And so that's what I actually started teaching. Like, that's all they gave me at first. And so from there, I was like this is unacceptable, we're

We're gonna make this bigger so I I yeah within that first semester was able to argue for and get approved all the way through the state level course modifications brand new courses on the books and the linguistics minor. Yeah. And at that point I was the only linguist, so they literally let me do this as the only linguist in the department at that point. David J. Peterson: That is unbelievable. David J. Peterson: That is just truly extraordinary David J. Peterson: My goodness.

David J. Peterson: Sit with that for a second, hold on a sec. Let me see my notes here just so I can remember what the hell I'm doing. David J. Peterson: Wow.

David J. Peterson: Ok, ok, man. How do I even get back. I'm still sitting with that. That's really, really, really incredible amazing David J. Peterson: I will say I was very, very lucky to have A department who supported the vision because honestly they they didn't have to because they didn't know me, I literally just been hired And it passed through department so that required department vote it required COLLEGE VOTE university level all the way through state board.

And that is sort of a unique thing to have happen. I will say, like, so anybody out there listening thinking, oh, I'm going to be a professor and I'm gonna go start a program, it usually doesn't happen that way.

David J. Peterson: No, it truly is. And the same thing with the same thing with my career. A lot of the things that have happened have required. Right. The, the, say so, of people who don't know us probably don't care about us and probably don't even fully understand what it is that we're trying to do. Right. Actually, yeah. Go on. David J. Peterson: It's just, and yet and miraculously, they just sign off on it.

David J. Peterson: Were so many times they wouldn't Yeah yeah and I it was still a problem within I had probably been teaching there for, you know, five, six years and I would still have colleagues come up to me and asked me. What do you do in that class again because you know they're trying to advise the student. They're like, I don't really know what you teach

And in one of the classes you know I had somebody asked me is that the class where you teach them where to put commas. And I'm like, oh, that's not even know Like that was still the perception was that like we teach. If you teach grammar that must mean you're teaching them how to, you know, use commas and semi colons and things like that. And it's like, that was really perception, even after I had been there for quite a while so

Yeah, that's, that's, yeah, they had to sign off on something they literally had no idea other than their vague memories of like this one grad class. They took where they had to diagram sentences and like that's really the only memory, most of them had of linguistics. David J. Peterson: Incredible. So, man.

David J. Peterson: Okay, so then 2011 comes and you're designing your first online course. And so, of course, the thing that jumped to my mind was. Were you familiar with any others at that time. With any other con lingers or online courses. David J. Peterson: Online courses. No I legit at that Point was like I'm recreating the world. David J. Peterson: Wow. I had so yeah no I had no idea. I actually. And so this is my naivete. I did not know the word coddling at that point.

And so that's why the class was originally offered as invented languages because what do you call these things. And it wasn't until and it was already on the books that it was going to be taught in the spring. And so I started getting more in depth in the research and

Trying to pull in actual resources because before that I had an idea of, you know, here's my comm link process. So it's going to, you know, the course is going to follow that same process and these kinds of assignments. This kind of output. So like I had that all laid out, but I wanted to be able to give students resources, obviously.

And there wasn't really a book at that time that I could really necessarily use and sink my teeth into as a course book, so I created instead a very expensive course pack. Where I like wrote out all the information I wanted them to have. And as I was doing that I wanted to have resources. So I started looking at more information to try to pull in, you know, more examples because I was really only

Familiar with a handful of con links at that point. And they were all ones that were like really well known. So I wanted to have more examples. So I started researching and that's when I realized like, oh, there's this other word Out there and that seems to be the word people prefer when they actually do it. David J. Peterson: And So that's when I learned the word online. Or even the term constructed language that point.

So that doing the research for that course is actually how I became more aware of a bigger world, but I still wasn't aware of the actual community of con lingers quite yet. And my job. At this point I had been actively calling for.

I mean, at this point, really actively calmly and I don't really start it until 2008 as my like active start date and so like I had been doing it for three years, completely unaware that there were resources out there that could have helped me David J. Peterson: Yeah, I mean, David J. Peterson: I mean, I suppose it's a little bit more surprising given than you were really, really, really into the internet era, but But we've had this discussion. Before where

If you're not used to using the internet, it doesn't occur to you to use the internet, even when it's available. So that's, that's one of those things that happened. Yep. David J. Peterson: So, all right. David J. Peterson: Yeah, it's really incredible. Alright, so, um, okay. Your first course, by the way, how did it go It went really, really, really well. It barely made so I needed 10 students to make and Make we ended up with 12 And one of the students dropped

At some point, and so we finished the class with 11 but it was a lot of good energy. It was actually, it ended up being like all female students and so that created this great energy in the classroom. It's also one of the reasons why the semester went great. And part of it was honestly because it was just like this really great energy of all of them working together.

And it went so well that we created a class t shirt and like they actually and I couldn't. I didn't have the department funds or anything to actually support the purchase of that. So they each had to pay for their own t shirt. But they did it because they're like we want a class t shirt so like they pulled it together designed it. We I put it into a program. And, you know, ordered it from a local place and

We had a class t shirt. By the end of the semester. And it's like, you don't really get that kind of community. Very often, but they, it was just wonderful so wonderful that quite frankly, at the end of it, I was like, I'm never teaching that class again because I don't want to ruin that memory. So I almost never taught it again. Just because that first offering was was just the best David J. Peterson: One. Wonderful.

David J. Peterson: It also, it also makes me feel better about my first class, since they were hoping I would get, you know, hundreds of students. I mean, it's so I think it's It's really hard to sell.

Out of the blue like there has to be some sort of standing and the biggest thing you need Is students telling other students that they should take that class that's without that my experience in academia is you're not going to get A big student draw toward any class unless other students are saying, Oh my gosh, you need to take that class and

That's the only way to do it like advertising doesn't work. They don't care about advertising telling all the advisors doesn't work because they don't you know they hear what their advisor, say, but you know they do what they're going to do. Like, none of that works. The only thing that really works is when you have that history of offering it and students tell others. That's literally the only thing, by the way, in case you're wondering for spring semester two sections of invented made so

David J. Peterson: Both of them. Yeah. Are now are now going to run David J. Peterson: Right and David J. Peterson: I'm really tempted to talk to you about that, of course, because I want to help the best, but now that good stuff. Yeah, that'll be that'll be when we're not recording a podcast. David J. Peterson: Right, right, right, right. Okay. Okay, good. So David J. Peterson: Anyway,

David J. Peterson: Sorry, I'm kind of got it getting off track from what I was planning to do but I'm still more interested in that. So, so 2013 the second time you teach the course right by the way did was it your decision to teach every two years, as opposed to every year.

Yes, because it was hard to get students to sign up for the course. And I didn't want to overwhelm and have it offered so frequently that I couldn't get enough students. The following year, because my goal was to never say it was going to be offered in the not offer it because You know, that doesn't turn out so well with trying to get students to take it in the future because then it's the

Class. Oh, it doesn't make And so really, there's like this sort of balancing situation where, in general, we see our students in a two year rotation. And so the two year in between gap allowed us to like build up the course with all our current students to say take it this semester. So like I started telling students about it two years out. To try to help build that. But even with that. The second time I offered it I want to say that was the year I had maybe 14 students, sign up for it.

Doesn't 13 I know by I finally was getting like I didn't have to worry about it. It just made, but like 2013 we were still fighting for it. Wow. David J. Peterson: And and how and how sorry. How did that. The second class go like that was, that was the year of course David J. Peterson: Of LCC five Right. And so one thing I have to stop and think. You know, that was the year that that happened. Okay. Okay. 2013 went well. There is another year where there is some drama but 2013

That was a good year. No, that one went really well. That was one where I may have accidentally pissed off the counseling community because I set them up with clients to create a language for somebody else. David J. Peterson: Because I Was that David J. Peterson: What gave you that idea.

I was doing a faculty learning community about service learning and how working with clients outside the university is supposed to be really good for students. And I'm like, hey, I'm doing this invented languages course I could set them up because the biggest problem that I encountered in 2011 Was students coming to the table saying I'm not creative enough to create my own world and like they were scared to do it. So I'm like, Listen, I'm gonna take that away from you.

Someone else is going to tell you what to create a language for someone else is going to tell you all the things that they want out of the language. And then you're just going to do it. And so that was my entire idea. Now mind you, and I feel like this is a very big, mind you. The clients ended up because it's not like I know people who are publishing stuff. So they really ended up being friends or friends of friends who were like oh yeah

I have this vague idea that maybe someday I could chase down and so like in some of them had no idea that they ever intend on chasing down. It was just like, oh, here, here's a thing that they can build the language for even though it's just me making stuff up right now. For instance, my sister was one of the clients so So, you know, set people up with somebody outside the university to work with.

But yeah, I guess that was not a good move. It wasn't. By the way, I still didn't really know the LCS existed, the language creation society existed until I was working on the 2013 course. So that's the first time I became aware David J. Peterson: You're terrible at advertising. Nobody knows you exist. I found them randomly online. So yes, that was but the class itself, by the way, went very well.

David J. Peterson: Well, so, by the way, you had separately told me about that. The faculty David J. Peterson: Learning Community thing that you were doing never put two and two together, but it's like it seems obvious and totally organic that that is how you came up with that idea.

David J. Peterson: And it was a really good and really solid idea in anybody who told you that that was a bad idea was probably, you know, just an asshole who had no right to say anything. I'm proud. Your pedagogical process. I don't know why anybody would Well, thank you. Apology accepted, David. David J. Peterson: Yes. All right.

David J. Peterson: Happily given well David J. Peterson: You know, it's, it's a very difficult thing to evaluate new information right without having David J. Peterson: Without having the proper background and I feel like that's also true. David J. Peterson: Because we've talked separately about music. It's also true about music. There's a lot of music, where I've heard it for the first time.

David J. Peterson: And immediately rejected it. I didn't like it didn't sound like anything that I could wrap my ears around David J. Peterson: But then when I listened to the context of where that music was coming from and listen to other artists and listen to this. And that's not suddenly I could place it and really appreciate it. Like, I know that that happened to me with David J. Peterson: What's it David J. Peterson: With punk music, which was a very, very hard sell for me.

David J. Peterson: Very hard sell for me. David J. Peterson: I just heard it sounded like noise. It sounded unprofessional and like I'm somebody who was coming from like the head of like 80s arena rock which is like the most David J. Peterson: Over the top professionally produced music that there is. And so it's like this sounded so stripped down. And so, like, I mean, they weren't even singing. Well, I was like, how do you listen to this.

David J. Peterson: And then it's like, you know, you listen more you get the background, get the energy and suddenly it's like okay, I understand how you're supposed to listen to this now. So like my background. David J. Peterson: When David J. Peterson: When you contacted the LCS was first, you know, of course, I started as a language creator and thinking I was the first one to ever do it for fun, and then reluctantly found others and assumed I was better than all of them.

David J. Peterson: eventually learned that I was not better than any of them and started to learn how to be a better con later. But, but, yeah, something that truly David J. Peterson: Truly shocked and disappointed me was how many con Langer's talked about how secretive. They had to be about creating languages and how how their friends and family anytime they opened up to them rejected them.

David J. Peterson: I forget if I ever told you this but Doug ball when he was a Stanford when he was a graduate student at Stanford. David J. Peterson: There was a mother who contacted him randomly because I don't know maybe you gave a talk or something from the area. She heard that he had was created created languages and she said her daughter who was like I don't know 11 or 12 David J. Peterson: Had been doing that and was wondering if he would meet with her.

David J. Peterson: And he did like he went to their home and she showed him what she was doing gave her some encouragement tips. David J. Peterson: And it became very clear to Doug that what happened was this this mother was just honestly looked at what her daughter was doing and didn't and was probably wondering if she should take her to a psychologist. David J. Peterson: Like, yeah, it's like

David J. Peterson: After meeting with Doug, I mean it's a bizarre Philip. Nevertheless, he was a PhD candidate you know at Stanford University had been doing this. David J. Peterson: Just kind of seeing her interact with them and seeing the questions that he asked and seeing that you know he was somebody with this life together. It made her feel better. Like, that's what her mother needed just like

David J. Peterson: Okay, there's nothing wrong with her. She's, she's okay she can do this. And, but, like, literally. That's what that was and David J. Peterson: And that's the type of thing that that happened, and that's that's the type of thing that a lot of con lingers we're sharing them with David J. Peterson: Older complainers people that at their time. We're in there like 50s and 60s and talking about how still, they don't share their work with anybody on the list.

David J. Peterson: And I really took that to heart because of how opposite. My experience was where I started an assumed everything I was doing was magnificent. And everybody should let me David J. Peterson: And so, like, you know, as we went on and did the, the, you know, LCC one and then found at the LCS I just I carried that with me for so long. I really, really, really wanted to make sure that type of thing. Never happened again.

David J. Peterson: You know, and so I became very, very possessive of the coddling and community and coddling in general. And so then you send an email that was super professional David J. Peterson: And super self assured and just saying this is the thing that I'm doing. And I was wondering if you could help, you know, help me with that and I was just like chair. Yeah. David J. Peterson: How dare you coming from out of nowhere with everything that we had built. How dare you.

David J. Peterson: And you know, I just didn't know the context. David J. Peterson: I didn't have the context and that's and it's it's hard to sit. You know when you're in a position like that to really sit down and say, Okay, tell me, tell me everything. Tell me all the background so I can really understand why this is happening. David J. Peterson: And you know if if I had done that maybe things would have gone differently. But, you know,

David J. Peterson: I didn't. And so I made a very bad impression. And anyway, but then you brought a whole host of students with you to LCC five anyway. Yes. David J. Peterson: Which was incredible. You brought a poster. You did a presentation. It was it was it was extraordinary. And so, yeah, that was, that was a really cool thing anyway. So we let me see if I can circle back to any of the topics that I was hoping to David J. Peterson: Well, actually we did kind of do that. That's cool.

Huh. David J. Peterson: How do you even approach that so David J. Peterson: I David J. Peterson: Little bit more background, my David J. Peterson: My relationship with linguistics has always been a little David J. Peterson: A little prot I guess because

David J. Peterson: At the beginning, I never really took linguistics. Seriously. It was just something I did for fun, because I knew David J. Peterson: That my serious life school was was to be a writer was to be an English teacher in English professor either an English teacher or English professor somewhere in there.

David J. Peterson: Literature was going to be my life linguistics with something that fun something fun that I did on the site. And of course, I started coddling you not afterwards. So it was it was both my professional fun and my my hobby fun David J. Peterson: But nothing that was ever going to be serious and so I rarely took any of the courses. Seriously, even though I enjoyed them and then there was, you know, some tension there and that I remember the first person that I ever told about

David J. Peterson: Two people there were two people that I was I was trying to tell that I was creating my own language. The first was a GSR that I had for cognitive science had a rose Jones, who was kind of like a friend acquaintance. Now she's a writer. She was a GSA at Berkeley. David J. Peterson: And I tried to tell her about, you know, this new project that I had. And she said,

David J. Peterson: I have too many of my own personal projects right now and too much going on professionally. So I just can't talk about anything new right now and just completely shut me down, which, you know, David J. Peterson: I have to respect that is especially as somebody who's totally the opposite. And we'll just say, oh yeah, whatever, you know, and then I and then I get too much. And then, you know, David J. Peterson: Why is it, letting things fall by the wayside. Yeah, I respect.

David J. Peterson: The second person I told us john McWhorter you know I was taking his pitches and Creoles class. David J. Peterson: And which was, which was transformative in a number of ways. By the way, that was fall 2001 and David J. Peterson: In fact, I had his class on September 11 David J. Peterson: Yeah, that's kind of the end of that day for me but

David J. Peterson: I told him you know that I, you know, was was creating my own language, and he laughed at me and said, have you been messing around with Esperanto. And it's like, David J. Peterson: First of all, I had taken it Esperanto course at Berkeley. But, you know, David J. Peterson: Like those are those are my first interactions with anybody in the world linguistics and language creation and it was always an uphill battle the entire time.

David J. Peterson: I actually convinced john McWhorter to let me run a a con line experiment for his course in lieu of doing a research paper because I hate doing research. David J. Peterson: And he allowed it. That was nice. David J. Peterson: It was great. I got an A minus on the paper like I did. I put a lot of work like this. He's like, yes. Yeah, you did good work. But, you know, not perfect. David J. Peterson: Thank you. Appreciate that. I can always I can always do better.

Yeah. David J. Peterson: And David J. Peterson: Let's see. After that we, you know, is when I was the president of the the undergraduate linguistics club. We put together Symposium, and I gave a talk on con Langley. David J. Peterson: With you know number of the departments people in attendance were essentially the entire talk was kind of justifying it

David J. Peterson: As something that could be useful to linguistics and relevant and I didn't understand why it was getting so much pushback. You did. And of course, by the way, later you read that article with about john key hadas article in The New Yorker. Oh yeah, the Yeah, the article, and it's cool. David J. Peterson: Yeah yeah David J. Peterson: Yeah. David J. Peterson: So you can see what you know his which was like cops reaction was to him.

Right. David J. Peterson: I got got George Lake off back at TEDx Berkeley. David J. Peterson: I put his quotes up on the screen destroyed anyway. David J. Peterson: He's not gonna listen. Oh look, he doesn't care. You ever met George Lake off. No. David J. Peterson: You didn't get a single shit what anybody thinks about anything anyway. David J. Peterson: Never less brilliant guy. Alright, so

David J. Peterson: Anyway, especially at Berkeley. I met with a lot of resistance in linguistics. And so it was always kind of an adversarial relationship. David J. Peterson: Counseling and linguistics, where I felt like I was always David J. Peterson: Trying to justify what it was that we did, and then not just like say, you know, let us be but also this is something that can be pedagogically useful. David J. Peterson: To you. David J. Peterson: And

David J. Peterson: It was just pushed back at every step. How do you feel about, you know, since you are a part of the academic linguistics community. How do you feel about that relationship, you know, linguistics, and con lightning. As well yes very positively. You Know, I actually I had never considered using it. Yet, well then again I was still a new teacher anyway because littered that spring semester of 2010 whenever I did that.

Morphine exercise again only my second semester of actually teaching linguistics classes. So I'm still new but like I don't think the idea would have come to me on my own necessarily to even think about bringing this thing I do for fun. Into the classroom, maybe eventually, it would have but it wouldn't happen right them. On top of that, I already knew the connection anyway because when I had decided to create the language, my first language in 2008 I

I was hesitant before that, because I had this story idea and I was going with it. And it wasn't until like one day, I was like, Okay, I'm going to need a language for this and I stopped. And I'm like, Who better to create a language and somebody who does nothing but study language like it just suddenly like of course like I have the training I have, you know what I need to do to actually make this real because you know I was remembering my failed childhood experiment of

Yet, but was not a language. And so that became really thrilling for me. So like I already knew that. Like, you really do need some knowledge of linguistics, even if it's informal, whatever. However, you get the knowledge you have to be aware of linguistics, to be able to do a good job creating a language. And so that connection was there. But again, it wasn't that the classroom connection wasn't there until I had done that exercise in the classroom.

And like immediately I saw the students really came to life on that, more so than any other data sets because they got to create something they got to have fun with it. They were learning so much from it. That that's really like It just became clear to me that, quite frankly, and this is something I said in the 2013 LCC five. If you go back and find my my video it's out there on YouTube somewhere.

My main point was, this is quite frankly, the best way to teach linguistics, because you see right away if students are understanding something Because when they have to actually not only create the pattern which is honestly the easier part right to say like, Oh, this, this prefix is going to do this thing fine like that could be a five minute thing.

But then to actually apply that and apply it consistently that requires so much attentiveness and ability to really think through language and what it's doing. And so I mean my argument is that every program should Become like course. That's my argument, and I believe so firmly in it that

When we so this year. I don't know that everybody knows this. I know David gnosis. But this year we we actually created a linguistics major and it's approved it's live, we actually have majors right now so very exciting first year on the books. But when we created that the capstone course for our majors is the invented languages class.

And so every single major will have to take it to get the degree And that's how strongly I feel about it because it just, to me, it really shows that That ability to understand aspects of topology to understand what patterns actually show up in natural languages, try to mimic that to the best of your ability. And to apply it like that. I can't say that enough. Like, how else are you going to apply it.

Outside of learning language and showing your demonstration of look I know how to use this this thing because I learned the language and can speak it now. Outside of that, like, it's really hard in a linguistics classroom to fully demonstrate that understanding and I also think it's just, it's so much fun for students. That I Basically this class is probably one of the only classes I teach where I give no minimums.

Or maximums really I just say write your paper and you need to have these things in it. And the last time I offered it So in 2019 when I collected papers at the end of the semester. Again, nothing about like how many pages, it needs. It's just here's like your checklist of the things that you need to have in it, the average length single spaced of the final paper I received from undergraduate students Was 19 pages. David J. Peterson: Oh my goodness. Yeah. And so, like, That's you.

On Instagram. Like I posted these giant stacks of like Conlon grammars. It's like literally giant stacks, because the students are so excited that I say create 10 words they give me 30 because they're like, oh, I spent all weekend on this. And so like I never have to ask them to do work really, it's the students are legitimately excited to be diving into their work and get lost in the work and

It's like it's the best part of both worlds. Because you're learning something you're doing something very real, but at the same time you're being super creative and getting to just invent things and like that to me is An amazing combination and i again i will say it again, seven years later I think every program needs the online course every linguistics program. Anyway, so that's that's how I view that relationship.

David J. Peterson: We need to make this podcast more famous David J. Peterson: Maybe, maybe, maybe we can just kind of email this episode to other linguistics departments. Specific specifically the ones of the names, you've mentioned

David J. Peterson: Know, I mean, come on. They, they have they have their they actually do have link listing David J. Peterson: I'm sorry Conlon courses so that that's that's the good thing in the pet, and the only contributors are ones that actually taught online courses.

David J. Peterson: Which is which is why they were invited to contribute. And so that was that was why I said Doug ball Jesse stands where are you Right, anybody David J. Peterson: It's okay, it's okay anyway but um yeah and that's David J. Peterson: It. And that was the thing especially back then.

David J. Peterson: Especially, years and years ago, especially when you first email the thing when I started hearing about online courses. I was so upset because these were by and large courses taught by people who were not gone lingers David J. Peterson: Right, and who I could tell David J. Peterson: Took a rather a clinical approach to this whole thing and saw this is, you know, an interesting this is an interesting outcome if we do this for these students

David J. Peterson: They really need. What I really wanted, though, was some sort of Professor like you, because that's the type of Professor that needs to be teaching these courses. And not only that, especially like David J. Peterson: At a school like SF bay that gets a lot more, you know, students from within the immediate community, you know, David J. Peterson: Right. That's how that's how you get people to know about coddling

David J. Peterson: Like, probably not producing a lot of lifelong future coddling or so hopefully some. But of course that's the way it is with any course that you teach anything Right, right. David J. Peterson: But it's suddenly it's just it's a it's a very positive interaction and they know a lot more loads more than most other people and they can share it. David J. Peterson: And that's, that's how that's how things get bigger that's helping spread

David J. Peterson: Yeah, that was, yeah. So your course. It's just probably exactly what I would have hoped for. I just didn't know that. You didn't have the context, it's okay. Yeah, only had bad experiences. David J. Peterson: Yep. Okay. So, um, gosh, I see that we're approaching the hour we started we started a little late. Right. We did if i i think we have like five to seven minutes left to actually hit the hour if I'm remembering correctly.

David J. Peterson: Quick question. Just a little timer up in the corner. Does that tell you how long it's been recording or how long the zoom has been going I'm timer in the corner. I don't have a timer in the corner. David J. Peterson: Seriously, it David J. Peterson: Acquired screen. David J. Peterson: Upper right hand side. Nope. David J. Peterson: Really Really Maybe it's because I'm the host and it's just taking care of by now.

David J. Peterson: Maybe, but but here all all all I'll show you know I'll even circle at their center. I'm like, I'm looking all around like Where else should I be looking David J. Peterson: Yeah, that's okay. Well, anyway, it says an hour and it's about saying our nine minutes. So I don't know. That's how long the recording been going through how long the zoom it been going it's That would be how long The zoom cast. Yeah, we were we were chatting a while before we actually

David J. Peterson: Got it. Okay, there, there are a number of their number of topics that you brought up that I think could be explored further, it would be fun to do that at a later time, if it makes sense. David J. Peterson: But in case it doesn't come up David J. Peterson: Something that I have found truly incredible so like, you know, I've been to the Wellesley course which you may have heard about right.

Yeah, Carpenter. David J. Peterson: Angela carpet or teachers, which, which is of course an all female course is what else please still an all girls school but something that did strike me though visiting your classes over the years, was that they were overwhelmingly female David J. Peterson: And the one of the biggest problems within the calling and community is that starting from the very beginning, it was overwhelmingly male

David J. Peterson: both online and then once we started to get it once we started getting together in person. David J. Peterson: And and i i have some theories as to why it started that way. David J. Peterson: But of course, there's no reason for it to be that way. And there's no excuse for it being that way now.

David J. Peterson: And that was, that was something that I've been struggling with that. I feel like I cannot possibly I mean I can help. But I can't, like, do anything directly about it because you know what I mean. David J. Peterson: And so David J. Peterson: Whatever it is about your course that the tracks female students, it would be nice to know that like Okay. But yeah, but But you gotta back up and think about my larger student population.

Okay, because if you recall, you also visited all my other classrooms. And maybe you weren't so aware But did you notice that almost every single class I teach is overwhelmingly female David J. Peterson: I didn't notice that. But, you know, reviewing i think i could notice that David J. Peterson: Yeah.

Like there. Yeah. There are times where I'll have you know 20 students and not a single male student or like one. And part of that is the program within which we're situated. Part of that is the SF Bay campus itself, we have I forget the exact percentages and they they kind of vary, but it's usually around 60 to 65% female students

And a lot of the male students are in forestry and biology and whatnot. And so you do definitely see that divide the classic gender divide that academia has been out for a long time struggling to to combat. And so I am starting to see a lot more male students in my classes as I'm getting more from outside of the programs where I teach. And honestly, to me, that's my Student diversity, I get more excited by looking at the list of majors in my class.

Then thinking about. So I'm like, yes, fa, I'm going to have, you know, probably more female than male students But the fact that so many now are from majors all over campus and I'm getting like, you know, computer science, I've got somebody from biology coming in somebody from Art somebody from history like I've got All these students coming from all over

To take it. And so, that to me is like, that's targeting into something even more exciting because they're going to go back to their academic communities which are so different from any language courses or anything like that with You know more information about Khan linking. And so I find that really exciting.

But yeah, it's not so I don't know that I can address that because it's not. It's also hard to address because a female professor is more likely to get female students, I believe, in general, I could be wrong about that. But based on sort of followings of, you know, people who feel more comfortable doing a lot more work with me. That tends to be again that sort of gender divide. So it's unfortunate. It really is unfortunate, but that also means that I can't really say that there's something

True magical that I do to draw them in. I will say that I do work extra hard With the female students that I have in the online courses to try to get them to share their work more freely to get them into the community so Not that I don't convince try to convince my male students to do the same. But I know that I am very aware of A lot of students not wanting or being confident enough to share their work so

David J. Peterson: Yeah, by the way, anytime anytime they want to give me something for feeling well. I'll take it. Yeah, I know you will. I have begged I'm seriously beg to students. So many times to be like, just send it. It's like you have to do, just send it But, you know, I'm working on it. And I have a plan for for how to change that next semester. I'll tell you about it later. David J. Peterson: Cool, alright. Exciting. Okay. Yeah.

David J. Peterson: Of course, the reason I brought that up is because I, I would love to see more David J. Peterson: I'd love to see a more diverse space in the online coddling world.

David J. Peterson: You know, it's, it's hard. It's hard because if you if you have a forum where everybody can just share a certain type of personality is going to be more comfortable sharing. And the more they do that, the harder it becomes for others with a different personality type to share David J. Peterson: And yeah. David J. Peterson: It's the same problem with Facebook. And the reason why it's destroyed America but anyway.

And why I quit because, see, that's what certain personalities. Do they just say this is too much. Goodbye. David J. Peterson: Yeah, and the date of this podcast airs, by the way. Me too. So Welcome to the club. Well, you will have started the process. It's still a like 30 day process where they actually delete it and they keep sending you things like, Are you sure you sure you want to delete it. It's still there for like 30 days so that way if you come back and reactivate it

Immediately. So just be aware of that. David J. Peterson: Right. Yeah. All right. Well, um, anyway, we didn't, we didn't like hit on everything, but we we hit on a lot of things. So, but I was, I was just really glad to hear even more about about about your course and and its history because David J. Peterson: It really is something special and truly unique, not just within con lagging but within specifically within coddling pedagogy.

David J. Peterson: It's, it's really tremendous work you've done. And so I think it's great to hear more. Thank you. David J. Peterson: Okay, so then do you usually sign off. Usually what I say at this point is, do you have any final words, David. David J. Peterson: Oh, Great. And usually you have a reaction like that or something along the lines of, oh, I meant to prepare something for this one, but I did it. And and then I take back over

So that's usually how it goes. Is that Is that the status quo is that today, too. David J. Peterson: Yeah, I think that's pretty much today as well. Excellent. Well, then in that case. Thank you for listening. Everyone who made it through this hour with us and we are happy to have you as our patrons and for eventually when when this is to the wider world. Happy to have you as a listener.

And stay grammar and we look forward to talking to you next month. Although David is doing this to me. Does that mean you do have something David J. Peterson: I just wanted to say welcome to our new patron Curtis fry. It's, it's, it's good to. It's good to have you on board. Yay welcome Curtis. Right. Okay. So, and with that everybody stay grammar and we'll catch you next month.