53. Elizabeth Cook - Body Snatcher

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Welcome to Lady Killers with me, Lucy Worsley, from BBC Radio 4, where true crime meets history with a twist. It's the summer of 1831 in East London, in an impoverished bit of Oldgate, a young woman called Anne Booten. keeps an appointment to visit her much-loved grandmother, Caroline, in the new lodgings Caroline had moved into the day before. But when Anne arrives, her grandmother is nowhere to be found.

Where is the old lady? She has just gone out. Why? I'm very much surprised that she should go out when she expected me here the first thing this morning. So where has Caroline Walsh disappeared to? And what can this missing person case tell us about the lives of women living in poverty in 19th century London? And possibly what can it tell us about women's lives today? Join me and my all-female team of detectives as we embark upon a historical adventure.

We're revisiting the unthinkable crimes of murderesses from more than 100 years ago in the UK and the USA. These are ordinary women who did extraordinary things. We hear their words, their voices, and we ask, how did they do it? And more importantly, what drove them to it?

To help me with this investigation, I am delighted to be joined by our guest detective, Jaswant Narwal. She's worked for the Crown Prosecution Service for more than 35 years. She's been Chief Crown Prosecutor for London North since... and in 2024 was named British Asian Woman of the Year. Welcome, Jaswant. Thank you. It's a real honour to be here and I really look forward to discussing the case with you. Now, Jaswant, your job title of Chief...

Crown prosecutor. It sounds awfully grand. What lies at the heart of the work that you do? I am responsible ultimately for the prosecutions in London North. I'm also in charge of all the homicide across London. And I have a team of nearly 500 people, which consists of...

prosecutors, they may be barristers or solicitors, paralegals, admin staff, so a whole team which are there to support me. What's the most important skill that you bring to your work, do you think? Over the years, what I've learned is it's common sense. It's looking at the facts of a case and looking to see whether or not you're able to piece together a case which you can take to a jury.

You want a watertight case to be able to take that to court. So however heinous, however awful the crime, if there's not enough evidence, we can't take that case to court. I can't wait to hear what you're going to say about today's case. You've got some fabulous skills to help us out there. Let's find out more now about the missing Caroline Walsh and the family she's lodging with.

I went with our resident historian, Professor Rosalind Crone, to Oldgate on the edge of the City of London. Well, Ros and I are in the Minneries part of London. just up from the Tower of London. And this is a very densely populated part of town, isn't it? We're surrounded by giant hotels. Giant blocks of flats, a lot of people living in here. Was it densely populated in 1831 when Caroline Walsh moved here, Ros? It was, Lucy, and it looked very different from what we're seeing now.

In the 18th century, the Mineries had been quite a mixed neighbourhood and we had lots of artisans like gunsmiths and also wealthy merchant families. And by the early 19th century, the houses of the wealthy here had been turned into tenements. Tenements for poorer people who are pretty much living on the breadline. We know that our missing person, Caroline Walsh, has moved to this area. What's her background? What else do we know about her?

Well, she's elderly. She's in her mid-80s. Quite old. Yeah, yeah, that is quite old. So that means she's quite vulnerable because we've got to remember this is a time when there was no state pensions for old people. Her granddaughter tells us that she's healthy, she's tall and upright, and remarkably, she still has all her own teeth. Quite surprising in this time.

We also know that she's still working as a peddler, so she's earning a little bit of money. She sells laces and stays around the neighbourhood, and she's recognisable to people as well because she always wears the same clothes. So she always wears a black dress. and quite a distinctive light blue shawl, and it has a particular border and also a stain on the shoulder. Does she always wear the same clothes because she wants to, or has she got no others?

Probably because she has no others. So Caroline Morse has moved into this area. She's moved into lodgings. Who's she lodging with? She's lodging with a family, Elizabeth and Edward Cook. Now, they're not married, but they're living as a married couple. And they also have a 12-year-old son, also called Edward, but the family call him Ned. Now, Elizabeth, we know, comes from Ireland.

The rumour has it she comes from a respectable family, but because she is so unrespectable, she left them and moved to London. Now, Elizabeth has a bit of a reputation in the neighbourhood. Apparently she's a drinker and her favourite tipple is... gin, because she causes quite a stir, and she also has a dark criminal past. We know that she spent time in prison, a short spell for skinning a neighbour's cat and throwing it at them.

What? Yes. That's outrageous. Yes. So not a nice character. Ah. Yeah. And the son Ned, this is quite interesting. Despite their poverty. He is either attending school or has attended school recently. What's their house like? I've brought you a picture of their house in Goodman's Yard, just around the corner. It's a very tall building. It's one of these converted tenements.

It's occupied by four families and the cooks live in the attic room up the top here. So it's got four stories each of... roughly one room so they all live together in this one room oh she's in with them that's right it's only 11 foot by 13 foot and we have an interesting plan here which we can see it has a bed yes that the cook family share a table

a fireplace and here's the window there so Caroline is expected to sleep in the corner in the corner on the floor yeah that's right so not very comfortable conditions And her granddaughter, Anne Booten, was actually quite worried about her grandmother moving into these lodgings, and not necessarily because of the state of them, but more because of Elizabeth's bad reputation.

in the neighbourhood. She was very concerned about that. Well, I would be. She drinks gin and she skins cats. You don't want that in your landlady. No. I'm a bit worried for Caroline. So am I.

Jaswant Narwal, we are dealing here with a missing person case. If an elderly woman went missing like this today, how quickly would the authorities or the police get involved? It all depends on the circumstances and it all depends on the dynamics of the family, the friends, the community within which they live and I suppose whether somebody's really looking out for them. And I would expect the authorities in a case like this when it's an elderly person to act quite quickly. Oh, right.

Let's find out what happens next in our case. Anne, that's the granddaughter. She goes back to Goodman's Yards many times to see if her grandmother has turned up. And Elizabeth detects that Anne's growing suspicious of her. From what you see, you seem to think we have murdered the woman. You think we have destroyed her at our place. By the middle of October.

Anne feels like she's exhausted all the avenues of inquiry. The police are slow to help, but eventually James Lee, an officer at Whitechapel, takes the suspicions about Elizabeth Cook seriously. He heads to Goodman's Yard to arrest her. The police also arrest Elizabeth's husband, Edward Cook, and their young son, Ned, is taken into custody too.

They're put into adjoining but separate cells. It's quite horrifying to think of a 12-year-old boy being thrown into jail because his parents are under suspicion. Ned's school teacher visits him several times in his prison cell and talks to him about what might have happened to Caroline Walsh in Goodman's yard.

And she tells the policeman who arrests her... With all your trouble, you have not found the old woman's body. Hmm. Jazz wants. This is Elizabeth's defence then. She says if there's no body... You can't prove any murder. Does she have a... ...cases where there is nobody? They're quite rare. But it's really important when we're putting these cases together where there is no body that we're looking at all the other evidence because you can prosecute a case for murder.

Oh, oh, intriguing. Now, Elizabeth Cook has got a bad reputation in this neighbourhood, but there's no sign that anything violent Elizabeth, I'm not convinced, but I'd love to know what you've got to say about this. Caroline might well have just wandered off. No, I'd agree with you, Lucy. It looks as though her kind of reputation is ahead of her and ahead of the...

Perhaps that's what they did based on what they heard. But you've got to have concrete evidence. You've got to have reasonable suspicion before you arrest somebody. There's lots of people who aren't. very nice or very friendly, but we don't just arrest them and throw them into prison if we think they may have committed a heinous crime. Well, so far then, we won't quite agree with the turn the investigation's taken, but let's find out what happens next.

Elizabeth and Edward Cook's trial is on the 6th of January 1832 in the august surroundings of the Old Bailey, London's Central Criminal Court. Some fascinating evidence comes from several women who work in the East London second-hand clothes trade. They all hang out in Rag Fair, a market near to where the Cooks live, and they testify that shortly after Caroline disappeared, Elizabeth Cook was trying to sell Caroline's old clothes.

I am Anna Channel. I know Mrs Cook by sight. She offered me a shawl, I did not buy it. It was light blue, with a stain about the shoulder part, as if something had been spilt on it. I am Mary Sable, a widow, and I carry on business in Rag Fair. The first thing the prisoner brought to me was a pair of stockings. She said, put them down by the side of you. I don't want anybody to see what I am selling you. A day or two after, she bought me a shawl. It was blue, and the middle was plain.

There was a light border, five or six inches deep, and there was a place on the shoulder which seemed to be a stain, and she offered me a pocket. Mrs Sable, we have a pocket here, a purse. Is it this one? Yes, this is it. I know it by this iron mould. Mrs Buton, is this your grandmother's pocket? Yes, this is the pocket I made my grandmother. It is entirely my own work.

And here is the iron mould. I'll positively swear it is the pocket my grandmother had on. This is compelling evidence that Elizabeth Cook is disposing, suboptitiously, of Caroline's clothes. But the tension in the Old Bailey courtroom really mounts when the most important witness is called. This is none other than Elizabeth's 12-year-old, Ned.

Jaswant Narwal, you are a prosecutor. What are the legal issues today about children like Ned giving evidence in court? So the most important thing is to ensure that we're considering the best interests of the child. even when it comes to giving evidence. And the approach that prosecutors really need to take is, is it essential that we... Actually call that child. Look at the other evidence. Do we have any other evidence which is going to be just as good in order to get that case home?

So that ought to be the approach, because what you don't want to do is take a child, especially into a court like the Old Bailey, to give that evidence. It can be really daunting. Not to say that we haven't had... young children give evidence in court. And that has happened because it's absolutely important and critical that the evidence of those children was brought. So if that child is the only witness to a murder, for example,

They are the eyewitness. It's their testimony which is really going to bring that case home because you've got nothing else. It's our duty to consider calling that child. We can pre-record their examination in chief. We can... pre-record their cross-examination so they don't actually have to go into court. It's the last thing that you want to do but sometimes you're driven to.

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Well, let's find out what Ned is going to say in The Old Bailey. He begins to describe what happened in the cook home on the evening of the 19th of August. He says that after supper at about nine o'clock, his mother gave Caroline a cup of coffee. And after that, Caroline went to lie down on her makeshift bed in the corner of the room. Ned is questioned by Mr Adolphus for the prosecution. After she laid down on the bed...

Tell us what you saw anybody do. My mother went and clapped her hand up to the old woman's mouth. And the other somewhere about her chest. She continued to do that for about half an hour. I saw the woman's eyes rolling. I never saw her move, nor heard her speak after my mother left her. The old lady appeared to me to be dead. Where was your father? My father was at the window.

It was open and he was looking out. He had his elbows out of the window. What took place next? Sometime after, my mother carried her downstairs. She lifted the body off the bed herself. The next morning, before school, I went down into the cellar towards the privy. I saw a sack there in which the old woman was. I could see nothing but the top of her hair. The hair was partly black and...

Partly grey. Jaswant. When he's originally questioned, Ned says that he didn't see anything, but he's persuaded to change his mind by his schoolmaster. Yes, it is really concerning if Ned is the principal witness and the key evidence in a case like this, because there doesn't seem to be anything else that the prosecution brought to court to say that it was his mother who killed.

Caroline. My concern would be about him, he's a 12 year old child, but also the fact that he's given an initial statement. And he said there he didn't see anything, but subsequently he's been persuaded or influenced and he seemed to provide a lot more detail. But if somebody has intervened, as his schoolmaster has, then... Why has his evidence changed? That's the kind of question. So that would go to credibility. And if he is the main witness, is he a credible witness?

Well, that's very compelling just once. In fact, you're making me think again about this case in all sorts of ways. But there's more to come from our child witness, Ned. Now he tells the court why Caroline's body hasn't been found and reveals a motive for murder. On the Saturday night, did you see your mother carrying anything down Goodman's yard? Yeah. I believe it was between 11 and 12 o'clock. She was carrying the sack over her shoulder.

She told me on a Sunday morning that she took the body to the London hospital. Ned is saying that his mother sold Caroline Walsh's body to the hospital for dissection. He's saying that she's a body snatcher. What does Elizabeth say in response? I am innocent of the dreadful offence with which I am charged. My son's statement is false throughout. I blame the schoolmaster for corrupting my child.

But the jury is having none of that. The verdict comes in. Elizabeth is guilty of murder. Her husband, Edward, is not guilty. Elizabeth's execution date is set for just three days later, the 9th of January 1832. The night before she's to be hanged, she's heard crying out in her sleep. Oh my child. My deluded child, thus to hang her who suffered for you. Jaswant, if...

If this case were in court today, you'd be the person in charge of the prosecution. Would Elizabeth be convicted on the basis of the evidence that we've heard? On the basis of the evidence that we've heard, I would be very reluctant to charge Elizabeth on the evidence. of a 12-year-old boy. What, she wouldn't even be in court in the first place? There was some evidence to suggest that Elizabeth was selling the clothes of the victim post-death. Well...

That in itself on its own wouldn't be enough. There could be lots of explanations. There would have to be a lot more evidence for us to put that case before a court. Ah, goodness. So not only is she not guilty, she wouldn't even be tried for murder, probably today.

Not on the basis of that evidence, which is really just the evidence of her son and the evidence that he gave initially, which was, I didn't see anything. And then perhaps, you know, the defence would say he was got at by the schoolmaster. If this happened today, I'd really want to know what the movements were of Elizabeth and also her husband, because he was charged, but there's very little about him.

Would you really be in a room and hear a murder taking place and not be able to give any evidence? Yes, he was co-charged, but was he turning a blind eye? Was he controlling Elizabeth? Lots of questions there about his role. So was it jointly responsible for that murder, if indeed Elizabeth did commit that murder? You are making me feel awfully gullible. I had thought that this was an open and shut case.

The old Bailey jury believes Ned's evidence that Elizabeth murdered Caroline to sell her body for dissection. I wanted to know more about this crime of body snatching. So I met up with Ros Crone back in East London in Whitechapel. We are standing in a very windy courtyard behind what's now... Tower Hamlets Town Hall. But that was until recently the Royal London Hospital. And what's the relevance to the case?

Well, this is where Ned claims his mother brought the body of Caroline Walsh to sell to the surgeons for dissection in order to learn from it. Was it a common thing? Well, there was a big demand for bodies, a demand from the 18th century when the medical schools really started to get going. And the state had tried to meet this demand in the 1750s.

by making dissection part of the punishment for murder. So the corpses of executed murderers would go to the surgeons, but there weren't enough of them. And so common people stepped in to fill the gap. The most common method was to dig up graveyards, ideally people who'd been recently buried, because actually that was a crime that was punishable only with a short period in prison, so it wasn't considered.

that bad but others went to poor houses and claimed to be the relatives of poor people who just died and they would take their bodies and sell them on and even a small number of people began to murder. in order to provide bodies for the surgeons. I suppose if people have heard of body snatchers, they will have heard of Burke and Hare operating in Edinburgh. Yes, that's right. So in 1828, Burke and Hare were convicted of killing at least 16 people in order to sell their bodies to the surgeons.

And just months before our case, a gang of London burkers had been... caught and convicted in 1831. So this is something that was very much on people's minds. The case of Burke and Hare and Bishop and Williams in London had taken up columns and columns of newspaper space. So there was really a moral panic. about this sort of activity. How much money would she get for a corpse?

Oh, well, you know, the going rate varied anywhere between 8 and 20 guineas. And a guinea was a pound and a shilling. So we're talking about a lot of money. That's a fortune. Yeah, that's a lot of money. But it all depended on the state of the body. So, for example, a rotting body or a putrid body would fetch a lot less than a really fresh one. So the attraction of murder. But...

For murder, you had to make sure that the body was in a really good state with no marks of violence, hence the importance of the method of suffocation. Jasmine, that's so chilling to hear, isn't it? Have you ever come across anything like that in the course of your career? I'm pleased to say I haven't. I think things have changed enormously. But I do know that...

There was a case a couple of years ago where a Nigerian politician, his wife and a doctor who was involved were convicted of bringing over a vulnerable young man from Nigeria. because they wanted to take his kidney for their daughter. And sadly, this is something generally on the increase, I think, with organ trafficking, the industry of providing organs and selling organs. Ros Crone has now joined us in the studio. Hello, Ros. Hello, Lucy. And hello, Jeswant.

Ros, do we know what happened to poor little Ned after his mother was hanged? No, we don't. Of course, his father survived, so... Ultimately, he should have been his father's responsibility. But we don't know what happened to him. All we can say is the court did believe Ned.

And the school teachers play an interesting role here as well. I mean, there's a lot of suspicion at the time in the 1830s, 1840s of school teachers and their influence over working class children. Schools are seen by many in the working class as places. where children are taught to act against their parents. But, you know, at the time, they felt they had enough evidence both to bring the case and to convict. Ross, what do you take away from this story?

Well, I find this case so intriguing because here we have a woman who was accused of body snatching. And traditionally, historians have spoken about body snatching as something that was done primarily by men. And the case suggests that women might have been involved in body snatching much more than we have allowed for. As well as Caroline Walsh, the community also suspects Elizabeth of targeting another victim, a 14 year old girl.

And they think that she was killed as well for her body and sold on. The timing of this case is really interesting. This is a time of moral panic about body snatching. And perhaps there was hype that... she got whipped up in. The timing is also interesting because that moral panic prompted a change in the law, the 1832 Anatomy Act. It was no longer the case that the bodies of convicted murderers were sent for dissection.

But instead, it was the bodies of those who had died in the care of the state. For example, paupers in workhouses whose bodies were not claimed by relatives and buried. So there was no longer a black market in body snatching. And that brings us full circle in this case, because our victim here, Caroline Walsh, was an old, poor woman. And a year later, she might well...

have been sent to the surgeons anyway after her death. Because she would have ended up in the workhouse. Jaswant, what do you take away from this story? For me, it's fascinating as a prosecutor because this happened at a time where the Crown Prosecution Service was not in existence. And as I say, there are lots of people. who will look at the case and on the face of it they may think immediately that

Elizabeth is guilty of murder. But then when you start to peel things away and look behind some of the issues, it's a lot more complex than it seems. And there's a lot of unanswered questions. And those are the things that we'd like. to tie up before we take a case to court fabulous thank you this isn't the open and shut case that I thought it would be

My heart does go out to young Ned Cook, who may have witnessed a murder, gone to jail himself, and given the evidence to send his own mother to the gallows. Above all... I've been fascinated to hear so many women's voices in this story, like the women in the rag trade, for example, the voices of ordinary 19th century women who otherwise would have left no trace. These are women.

Just trying to get by. And they do that by fair means or by very foul. Well, huge thanks to Jaswant Narmel and Professor Vozalind Crone. Next time, I'm in Dorset in the 1850s, where a woman who's experienced years of domestic abuse is accused of killing her husband. See you next time.

Lady Killers with Lucy Worsley is produced by Jane Greenwood and the readers are Claire Corbett, Jonathan Keeble and Ruth Sillers. The executive producer is Kirsty Hunter and the commissioning editor for BBC Radio 4 is Rhian Roberts. It's a Story Hunter production for BBC Radio 4. And you can listen first to the episodes if you search for Lady Killers on BBC Sounds. See you next time.

I hope you've enjoyed this episode of Lady Killers. Now if you like history and know of any budding historians there's a new podcast that I think you'll enjoy. It's called Dead Funny History. And it's made by the team behind You're Dead to Me. Here's Greg Jenner to tell you more.

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