This is Lab Medicine Rounds, a curated podcast for physicians, laboratory professionals, and students. I'm your host, Justin Kreuter, a transfusion medicine pathologist, assistant professor of laboratory medicine and pathology at Mayo Clinic. Today, we're joined by doctor Rondell Graham, professor of laboratory medicine pathology and anatomic pathologist at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota for another insightful conversation on a topic that's vital to our development, but not always easy to master, navigating feedback. So whether you're offering feedback, receiving it, figuring it out how to make it actionable, these moments shape who we are as professionals and colleagues. Doctor Graham brings thoughtful perspective and practical advice for all of us to grow more confidently through feedback.
Doctor Graham, thanks for joining us today.
Thanks so much for having me, Justin. This is a really interesting topic. Great to be here.
Well, close to my heart, and I know you recently led a workshop about this topic at at USE CAP that was well received and I think invited for an encore performance. So let's kick it off. Why is it important to be thoughtful about feedback received?
Well, this is a really great question, Dustin, and I think it comes down to what is the value behind feedback. And so I I would say let's start with a bit of an anatomical view because this might be helpful. You know, your listeners will probably have a really robust background in anatomy. As you will know really well, as part of our own visual apparatus, our bill where how we see, we kind of have a resonant, and coming out of the resonant, this is the optic nerve. And it's interesting that by virtue of having that relationship, you know, that basically, this nerve exiting the optic disc, we automatically whatever is allowing us to see or transmit those signals of sight is actually creating for us a blind spot.
And our brain and the other eye does a bit of a complex job so that we don't perceive that spot where the optic nerve is now transmitting the signals of sight. And I use that bit of an anatomical anecdote, as it were, to communicate that we all have blind spots. By virtue of being able to see, we have blind spots. And so why feedback is so crucial is because we're not seeing the whole picture. So just by definition, we're not seeing the whole picture.
I really like how you put that. That analogy in my mind highlights we could be phenomenal individuals, but just the inherent way that we're built, we will have blind spots. There will be feedback that from things that we won't see somebody else will see, and that can add value to us. You are in a leadership position. You have risen through the ranks.
You have mentored others. Can you describe for our listeners maybe one or two challenging situations that either you or maybe a colleague that you advised kind of navigated about feedback?
This is a great question, Justin. And I think we all will be there either as recipients of or giving a challenging feedback. I will say one example that I think I think a good example that came a few years ago, I remember this when I was in a leadership role. I was relatively new to that role. And one of the things that I had a leadership coach working with me at the time, and she emphasized was it's good to get three sixty feedback, especially at these kind of transition points.
And boy, was she right. One of the things that came across when I collected feedback from people on that particular team was that I needed to be really careful with my own extroversion. Because across that team, many of the people were more introverted, and there was a sense that they didn't even have time to process information before I was introducing new information. And so it felt like almost like they were out of breath just trying to keep up and to manage those meetings. And that was really helpful because while I perceived myself to have plenty of time and there'll be plenty of gaps for input of a processing, it made me realize that one, that was not true, certainly not from the perspective of others.
And it gave me at least a starting point to know, come up with new strategies working with others who are different from me, who process information differently. And I think that that has the skeleton or the bare bones of a lot of value of feedback. One, I think you have to be careful about your assumptions, ask open ended questions, I'm open to receive the information, and then kind of respond to that information. And I think in so doing, one can improve. And I think that that certainly improved the performance of myself, but then helped the team in terms of their performance.
You know, I'm not going too far down this rabbit trail because but one of the crucial things of of leadership, one of the crucial aspects of leadership is getting the best out of others. And so many times as as leaders, people who are responsible to influence of others, it's not only about how we wanna conduct ourselves or how I wanna conduct myself or my own preferences, but how do I set my preferences aside to allow the best of others to come out.
Listening to you describe that, one of the things that kinda caught my ear was how you mentioned that it's important that you kind of are aware of your extravertism. And that probably for some of the listeners, they may have received kind of a similar feedback where I guess where I'm drawing the line is, I'm an extrovert. This is who I am. You're telling me not to be myself and people really struggling with receiving that feedback. I'm sure you navigated that well, but how does one receive that?
Or you've probably seen colleagues get similar feedback that is kind of seems to get a little close to the heart. Mhmm. And how can we be objective, like you mentioned, looking at the information and make those corrective actions?
This this is a really great question because what you're you're getting to is how does one v one cell without necessarily creating, I would say, So being authentic, but also flexible, and I would say maybe skillful. And then also navigating feedback kind of in general. So I would say the first thing is a person who's an extrovert and probably a high extrovert. The way that it was shared with me, and I really love this, is it's a part of the be yourself, but to be yourself with skill. And so one of the things that I have learned there are a couple of different it's kind of a general approach, but then there's some specific tactics.
So as a general approach, I try to distill that when I'm going to be speaking, what is the core message here that I need to get across, and what's the available time? I focus on that main thing, recognizing there may be more things to get across. Another thing I'll do is because I am an extrovert, I'm honest that I'm an extrovert. And so sometimes, depending on the context, I may have to introduce that and invite the listener or listeners to be patient as I work through my process of processing that information. So I think I was being open about that personality type or pattern, but also distilling it down to what's most crucial for this person to hear or receive, and they may invite you to share more.
Or and and sometimes, if you think it's a if I think it's a really complex topic, I might say, there's more that I can share on this if there's an interest or a tie. In terms of specific tactics, one of the things that I've learned is that it's useful to take notes as an extrovert. It I won't say it distracts me from talking, but it channels that energy that will go to verbal communication into writing. And it gives me time to process that information, Writing those doodling, those are both really fantastic and identifying key points that really works well. And another tactic related to writing, sometimes if you're leading teams or groups, allow the other team members to share their thoughts, suggestions, input, and I will take time writing that.
And in so doing, you're giving sometimes more introverted people a voice, and you're actually documenting what they want to do. And I think that's really helpful. So this kind of idea of channeling some of that talking into writing. And the very last thing I'll share is that I think is really useful. Provide the background information and stuff for meetings where possible and where is your responsibility in advance.
Because many times, people are quieter. It's not that they don't have anything to say. Sometimes they're processing that information. By giving them enough time to process that information in advance, you can have a more productive conversation. So those will be some tips of things I use general and then three specific tactics.
For more laboratory education, including a listing of conferences, webinars, and on demand content, visit MayoClinicLabs.com/education. Oh, I I love that. I just there's a lot of gems there. I just wanna highlight, I think for a lot of us giving feedback because I I've really sometimes struggled with this giving feedback that seems to almost interact with who who somebody is at their core. But I love the way that you talk about being yourself with skill as a key point.
And then another thing that you mentioned there, another one of those several gems was just highlighting the what's this for, the getting the best out of others. And what you're talking about of this tactic about giving people things ahead of time or, like, yourself making yourself take notes so that you're giving time to others. It's almost like there was a book a little while ago written about kind of creating an everybody culture, but you're really enabling others to be more participatory in the leadership that you're cultivating.
I think you've nailed it there, Justin. And and I think to one of the points you're bringing up about feedback that I think is really essential is that as we give people feedback, we wanna give feedback that is specific. We wanna give feedback that's actionable. We wanna give it in a timely way. And sometimes, for instance, I'll give you an example of what might be not be helpful.
So if someone were to say, well, Rondelle, we think things are going okay or not okay. The issue here is that you're an extrovert. Well, the problem is that there's nothing I can do about that per se. But I think one is really specific to say, when we have meetings, I don't believe I have enough time to process the information at one point before we transition to another. That's really specific, and it gives me a lot of clarity about what to improve.
So I think it's really important to add that specificity. And sometimes people there's a Scottish proverb. I I know some people use it here, and I really like it. It's for every mile of road, there's two miles of bitch. So sometimes it's good to be really specific about the feedback, and I would say, I try to address you're addressing the individual, but you're not making personal comments.
So specificity is really crucial, and it's really important for feedback to be actionable and to support a good outcome for the recipient. So things like, you know, you're doing good or you're doing bad are not as helpful. I believe that we are making great progress because of the documentation you're providing. That's much more clear.
So with that specificity because I know sometimes we may either give feedback or feedback may be received that we may perceive as that's not accurate or that's not fair. They don't really understand. Do you think that the specificity is kind of the antidote for that? That if you add that specificity, if you have that as a core of the feedback, that can kinda mitigate that resistance of feeling that this isn't fair?
Great question, Justin. And I think you're right. The specificity helps because a lot of times when people receive negative feedback, especially if it's a bit of a surprise, by being specific, by being, you know, focusing on actions and specific behaviors, their presence, and their absence. I think it can ground the recipient on what's fact here. And I will say, because feedback is such a gift, it's really giving you a perspective, a set of eyes that you don't have.
I think the recipient and the giver of feedback is really good to use this as leaning moment. So the recipient is good to lean in and understand, okay. Tell me tell me more about this. And this is where the specificity, the specific examples, being actionable are really helpful. So an example may be related to what we talked about.
It was extraversion. Another example may be, I think you present this information really well. This actually is pretty common, but I'm not really seeing the data to support it. So understanding the story, but the the I'm I'm not seeing the data or the information to back the conclusion. That may be another way of of asking that question.
But, again, by providing that specificity, the person knows. I think another thing to do is to also begin with stating one's intent, especially with written feedback, which is really challenging to navigate because of how people read differently. I think it's useful to be really specific about one's intention. So my intention in providing this information is to help you grow. Or I see lots of potential in you as a leader, as a communicator, as a teacher, as a researcher.
And to get to that goal, there's some opportunities that I think would be good for us to discuss or some opportunities that I think would be good for me to share. So being really specific about that intention can really help.
Well, that's a great way to set the stage. If I can go back to an earlier, Jim you dropped for us, you mentioned about the importance of this feedback, particularly 360 degree feedback, so from from kind of all points from multiple perspectives at transition points. And so one of the things I'm really curious about is for our listeners, some of them may be in training now and, you you know, they're gonna be designated to get feedback at at certain times. But once somebody graduates from training and they're in practice, a lot of that feedback that they may be getting kind of regardless of the job they may take, that feedback often gets rolled back quite a bit once somebody is done with training. How should our listeners navigate feedback after formal training?
Well, it's a great question because you're right. A lot of the structure that surrounds us in training, we move beyond it. And so feedback is a there's a lot less in general because the structure doesn't require it. And so I think it's really important for us as we transition from from training to in practice to be intentional about seeking it out. I think it's useful to have a regular cadence of seeking out feedback, and I would say what can be really helpful, Adam Grant shared this on LinkedIn this week, is to frame it oftentimes where you're gonna be proactive as advice.
So ask for advice, and I would say ask advice of people based on their relative areas of strength. So for example, if someone is a really great teacher, ask them for advice about how to improve aspects of your teaching and so on and so forth. So I think it's really good to be intentional. I think it's useful to have feedback from multiple sources, again, because of this reason of blind spots that we all have. I think it is useful to take that feedback, process it, and as you make changes based on that feedback, to then circle back and ask that person, how is your performance improving or changing or not?
So I think being really intentional about it, having some asking us over advice that Adam Grant suggests, and having a regular cadence, I think, can be really crucial.
I think your answer is certainly clutch for a lot of our audience that are in practice right now. But I I wanna highlight maybe for our student listeners or trainee listeners that, you know, what doctor Graham is saying, although I know you're getting a lot of feedback right now, very structured, this idea of seeking out additional people based on who you are seeing in their level of expertise is really a a key point, and I I really appreciate you mentioning that.
Well, thanks, Justin. There's a lot of value in in feedback and seeking it out. And even the feedback where you don't understand or you don't necessarily agree, having great clarity, asking for examples can give you a sense as to whether this is really useful feedback that you don't perceive yet, or this is feedback that may not be as useful. And, again, looking for those things, is it specific? Is it does it have examples?
Is it actionable? Is it time bound? I've had scenarios myself, and I'm sure others have, where people are giving you feedback for things that were years ago. And sometimes you don't remember it, and that's like, I I honestly have no idea. So that happens sometimes, and there's a lot less that you can do with that. So, yeah, those are the things I was sure about that feedback.
I just wanna transition to one final question, and it it's kinda taking this conversation a different way. We've so far, we've been talking about what I think sometimes people call soft skills that we all recognize are very important despite being called soft. They are very important for our careers and development. But I am specifically curious about have you come across or do you use tools? So are there apps?
Are there notebooks? Or or have you found certain tools to be very helpful for making the most of feedback that you've received or for your process of giving feedback?
This is a great question, Justin. The question is, are the tools that I use to get the the most out of feedback? I don't have a specific tool set per se, but I will say that I have a process. Mhmm. So what I'm looking for is what are the behaviors that I'm doing or not doing, the language that I'm giving or not giving, so which should come from the the feedback.
What's the the context around it? And then or the or the the suboptimal effect, And how can I move from that suboptimal effect to a better effect or better an better outcome? There are some people who use, like, structured tools, like, can use the a three model. So a three, which is from industry from, you know, Japanese industry giants who basically say you identify the effect at the current state, and you work through a structural process to how do you get to that better effect. So that's a tool set that one can use.
What I found with the process is once I have clarity on what's the suboptimal outcome of what are the behaviors tied to that, I find it useful to process that with mentors or advisers, people who are further along, who have seen an example of this before, and get some perspective from them on what will be better ways to approach that situation, that set of circumstances. So I think the key takeaways from this is if if people have tools and you've googled it and you found one, I think that's great. If you decide to use the Kaizen model or the a three models, sorry, from industry, I think that will work well. But I think it's useful as one navigates feedback, especially if it's challenging or in a really important area. I think it's useful to be in touch with mentors and advisers to ensure that you have the right perspective on how to respond to that feedback.
We've been rounding with doctor Rondell Graham on navigating feedback. Thanks for joining us today.
Thank you.
And to all of our listeners, thank you for joining us today. We invite you to share your thoughts and suggestions by email to [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe. And until our next rounds together, we encourage you to continue to connect lab medicine and clinical practice through educational conversations.