Maximizing Impact Through Admin-Lab Collaboration

- This is Lab Medicine Rounds, a curated podcast for physicians, laboratory professionals and students. I'm your host, Justin Kreuter, a transfusion medicine pathologist and assistant professor of Laboratory Medicine and Pathology at Mayo Clinic. Today we're rounding with Mark Brown, operations administrator for the Department of Laboratory Medicine and Pathology at Mayo Clinic. To talk about the significance of collaborating with administrators.

This is an awesome topic, and Mark, I'm grateful that you're here to unpack this with us. Yeah, - Really good to be here, Dr. Kreuter. Thanks for the invite. - So, you know, we've got, just highlighting our audience, we have, you know, physicians, laboratory professionals and students. Certainly I think that there's gonna be administrators that are kind of working with each of those groups. Maybe even in some cases people may not necessarily be aware of that.

But I'm kind of curious from your perspective, why is it important for pathologists, laboratory medicine colleagues to understand how to work with administrators? - That's a great question. In healthcare, healthcare is a complex field. We know that it takes a lot of individuals to successfully care for the patient. And there are individuals who touch the patient who care for the patient every day at the bedside.

And then there are a host of individuals who support those who provide the care at the bedside. One group of individuals who does that is the administrators. And the role of administration takes different forms and different institutions of course. But largely what the administrator is responsible for is the overall functioning of the practice. That could be everything from budgeting to staffing, to ensuring that the care teams have the supplies they they need.

It could be ensuring that we have the appropriate access for our patients. It could be ensuring that we have the appropriate equipment that we have. So the administrator works and really their responsibility is to collaborate in tandem with care providers everywhere from physicians to nurses, technologists, supply chain leaders, others, really across the entire practice to ensure that ultimately the patient gets what they need day in and day out.

Whether it's in front of the patient or ways that we help care for the patient behind the scenes. And so, I think, I'm biased of course, but I think the role of administrator is, is pretty important in the healthcare field and administrators like nothing better than to work really closely with their physician colleagues. Administrators actually get a lot of value in visiting with, working, with collaborating, with strategizing, with their physician partners.

And so I really appreciate that you, you've risen this topic forward.

It's pretty important, we think in, in the healthcare field. - Yeah, I do too. 'cause I mean, I've, I've been in a couple of different places and, you know, I've seen some different examples and, and maybe, you know, certainly examples where it's, it's going very well, but also times where it's struggled and times where it's struggling.

It, it almost gets kind of portrayed as kind of, you know, seeing maybe the administrator as a, a barrier to getting something that I guess somebody is thinking medically is important. And so there's kind of an an otherness to this, right? Rather than this collaboration we're talking about.

And that, that has me reflecting on this topic that our conversation today is kind of like the opportunity to highlight this, you know, another way that we can think about interprofessional collaboration just as pathologists, laboratory professionals may collaborate with anesthesiologists or surgeons at times for projects. Same thing with administrators. And so in that light, I guess view it from this lens of, you know, this interprofessional collaboration.

Sometimes it seems like administrators might be speaking a different language. I know you and I have talked to, to somewhat about how the training is similar and different, but what are a few key points? Do you think our audience really would be helpful for them to understand administrators so that hopefully they can understand how they might collaborate with them? - That is a fascinating question, Dr. Kreuter.

I will try to explain as best I can from the vantage point that I come from, after my many years of working in administration, administrators are trained to look at things holistically and evolving multiple individuals at the table, whatever that table is or whatever the decision table is. In other words, administrators are trained to have finance folks at the table, human resources folks, supply chain leaders, marketing leaders, public affairs leaders, nursing leaders.

The list can go on and on. And it depends on the topic that's being discussed. Clinicians often are trained in a little bit different light, which is physicians get trained to care for the patient, they're ultimately responsible for that patient care, whatever specialty that physician ends up choosing, whether they touch the patient directly or they support those who are touching the patient directly.

And so there, there's a little bit of a dynamic there between how a physician is trained, where the physician is trained to have the answer, doctor, we need some, we need the answer. What is the answer? And physicians are trained to, to offer that. Administrators are trained to say, we have a complex issue here, it does not have an easy answer. Why don't we gather the right people around the table and wrestle with the decision together to ensure that everybody's voice is heard.

That could be frustrating sometimes I've learned to physicians who just want to make the decision, and there are multiple variables just as a clinician thinks about as they care for a patient. Okay, it could be this, it could be that, you know, differential diagnosis, right? Well, let's think about this, let's think about that. Administrators do that. But on the business side, they think about, oh, we have this difficult decision we have to make. How does that play into the budget?

Do we have the staff to be able to do that? Do we have the equipment to be able to do that? Are there policies, procedures, federal laws, state laws, et cetera that we need to think about before we proceed with a particular course of action? So when it works really well, it's great when, when everybody recognizes around the table that the roles that are being played are by professionals who have the best interest in mind.

And when it doesn't work well, folks do get irritated takes too long, why don't you just let me do it? Well, we want to support the physician, we want the patient care to happen. We want the staff to have what they need. And it's not always as black and white as we'd always like it to be. - Wow. I love how you set up that. 'cause I, this really resonates with me. I can appreciate this idea of, you know, it it is, you're exactly right. Physicians are often trained to, what's the diagnosis?

How are we gonna treat this? What are we gonna say for prognosis? What's the answer? What's the answer? What's the answer? That kind of, I guess one might say like a bias to action, right? And as you're saying an administrator, you're really looking at it from the perspective. And, and I like how you're bringing up this idea of, you know, holistically, what are all these different components?

'cause you know, I went to medical school, I did not necessarily go to like law school and, and finance school and Right. Like you're saying, you're bringing a lot more so I can understand why this sort of just by default there might be a misperception between the fields. - Sure. - So I'm curious, you know, you've had a number of experiences and have worked in a number of, of different settings.

I'm kind of curious from those examples, from our, for our audience to hear, you know, what are ways that you have seen physicians who really are able to optimize their relationship with administration? What are those habits or practices or ways to approach things? - Thank you for that question. Physicians. So I would say this administrators know how talented physicians are. They know how much stress the physicians are under. They know the pressure that is applied to physicians.

It may not seem like that sometimes, but believe me, the administrators know the stresses that are there on the physicians. Our goal, while it might not seem like that in a moment, our goal is to support the physician and their care team. Ultimately, our job is to try to make it easier for the physician and for the care team so they don't have to worry about those other things. We want the physicians to worry about the patient, whoever that patient is, right?

If we're, whether we're right in front of the patient or again, we're supporting those who are right in front of the patient, we want the physicians, the care teams to focus on patient care will take care of the business side. The physicians who understand that and realize that the administrators want nothing more than to be in partnership with the physician, are the ones I've seen be most successful and get things done more quickly and more efficiently than others.

When there is a healthy respect at the table, when the administrator knows the knowledge base that the physician has, the experience that the physician has, and conversely, when the physician knows that the administrator's also been around the block a few times when they can learn about each other, understand each other's nuances and idiosyncrasies, that's where the efficiency takes place. I think about one of the physician leaders I work directly

with that I support, and I know that he can do his job more efficiently if I take things off of his plate for him so that he can focus on that patient who's right in front of him. That's my goal. I also think about it from the total practice standpoint in my institution, I want to ensure that our institution is successful, that we are living the mission and the vision and the values that we have in our institution. It's one of the administrator's core responsibilities to ensure that takes place.

That job becomes a lot easier when the physician is on board working hand in hand with the administrator. - What do you, I can imagine maybe some, some of our audience there, there are a few years into practice or like me, maybe they're, they got some grays gray hairs filling in and, and maybe they didn't get off to a good start with their administrator, right?

But they've developed a history there and maybe they're hearing this podcast and understanding that hey, administrators have similar values and maybe now they're understanding a little bit different on what their job is, how they have been trained, and how, how that's different and may compliment them. What are your thoughts? Like what would you say to that, to that audience member about how to approach a reset with, with their administrator? - Sure. No, that's a fascinating question.

And this does happen on the administrative side, we are trained to resolve issues that come up when we sense, either we see it ourselves or we sense it's going on to address where the challenges are directly. So if I have an issue with another administrator, for instance, it's incumbent upon me to reach out to that administrator and say, Hey, can we chat? You know, could we, could we go have coffee together or go for a walk together?

I got something on my mind that I'd like to kind of chew on together with you. Same thing for physicians. If there's a belief from that physician standpoint that maybe things aren't going as well, administrators, like nothing more than for their physician partners to reach out to them directly and say, Hey Mark, I've got a question or I've got something on my mind.

Do you mind, some of the best chats I've ever had in my career have happened late at night via text message, late phone call on the weekends when the physician just needs somebody to talk to. Remember, it's stressful. We know administrators know it is very, very stressful for physicians. They don't often have other people they can talk to about things. They feel it's all on them. Allow us as the administrator to be the relief valve.

I always tell my physician partners, you can contact me whenever you need to, 24 7, 365, and we can chat whenever you want to. It may not be in person. We may be in different places, but always up and available for a chat. And there are times we, we get crossways as human beings. We're not perfect and sometimes we just need somebody to talk to. And the, the relationship becomes even more robust when that trust is there and those conversations can happen.

- I hope our physicians, laboratory professional, audience is hearing this and hearing this as an opportunity to reach out. Even if you have a great relationship with your administrator, might, this might be a, a great time to, to reach out and say, hey, and for students, this might be the time to reach out and say like, maybe, maybe the relationship that your mentors are having with their administrators is not so obvious and, and something that you see that might be a topic to, to bring up.

'cause as Mark's bringing up this ability to work, I think that administrators are maybe able to make your medical decisions like sustainable and actually happen. I think, mark, you bring a certain amount of reality

fantasy in my mind, - Right to Dr. Kreuter to that point, we, the worst thing that can happen is if we have a, a physician, whether it be a, a staff physician, a fellow, a resident, an intern, medical student, wherever we are in our journey, the worst thing we can have happen to them is for those individuals to be completely burnt out, to get crossways and then to get unhealthy. And there are concerns, there are concerns in the industry.

The data is real that says, because of those pressures that physicians have, we are seeing things like substance abuse all the way to unfortunately suicide. And we do not want that to happen. Everybody matters, right? So when there's that relationship where you feel like you're stuck, if nothing else reach out to your administrator, a manager you work with, we want to help you. We want to have that conversation. That is what we are paid to do, is to ensure that members of our team are good.

- You know, I thought I was gonna have to pivot into my final question, but you just made the perfect segue. So for our audience, Mark also has, as you could hear, a strong passion for supporting wellbeing and, and looking at this from a very practical and effective perspective. I'm curious, you know, Mark, do you have some parting reflections about taking care of ourselves and those around us? - It is a complex topic. We talk often in the industry about work life balance.

For instance. That notion means something different to everybody, right? We can't just universally apply and say, well, gosh, you know, everybody has to work all weekend long, or nobody's working on the weekend, or, you know, you must work till five o'clock or till six o'clock, or, you know, it's different for everybody, right? What is not different for everybody is that, again, we are all human beings. We all come, our backgrounds are all different. We all have unique perspectives.

None of us are exactly the same. So if we can seek to understand and just listen to people, sometimes it takes a little extra time. But if we seek to understand and say, gosh, this is an incredible human being who's right before me, what can I learn from that individual? Also, if you assume that anybody you walk by on the street, at least half the time, that person's in crisis, for real.

If you have that impression as you walk by, as you use, sit in your meetings, as you walk the floors in the hospital, as you see patients in the exam rooms, et cetera, at least half the time that person's in crisis in some way in their life, they may not tell you that. But if we have, if we open our hearts and we open our ears and we open our eyes and make it comfortable for folks to share what's on their mind, I think we can help each other out.

And who doesn't need a little help on their journey. Right? So I, I like the idea of just take time to listen. It doesn't take very long and you could save somebody if you listen. - So important. I love that. Hitting home with listening to each other. And I think this kind of brings up the, the major theme of this podcast is listening to other professionals that are working with us in this healthcare arena.

It's complex like you started out, and by listening, we can really make a lot of difference. Yeah. Thank you so much for rounding with us today, Mark. - Yeah, thank you Dr. Kreuter. It was great to visit with you. - And thank you to the audience for being here today. We invite you to share your thoughts and suggestions via [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe until our next rounds together.

We encourage you to continue to connect lab medicine and the clinical practice through insightful conversations.