204. When Bad Things Happen To The Rich

just our regular lives. But there are moments of I should be doing something, What am I forgetting?

really great. But as I have told doctor Shiloh several times, it's been really jarring because I didn't realize the train that I was on for the past seven and a half years, the train I was on was a high speed rail going one hundred and seventy five miles an hour. Just because there was always like every morning was walking into what crisis do I have to address this morning? You know, what are we going to have to jump to are we going to have to run to a barricade?

Are we going to have to go to a hospital? You know, our family members blowing up my phone, that kind of thing, And it just became the norm, and

there's a lot of effects on it. I mean, I think anybody working in emergency services to any degree has that sort of experien So shifting from that over the past three months has been like, well, I'm supposed to be doing something right now, it's like, oh no, I actually already did like a day's work in the first three hours of the day because that's the pace I'm

used to working at. Yeah, and I will say this, my sleep has improved immeasurable nice, Like I did not realize how much my sleep had been impacted since COVID when thing's really ramped up for us. So how about you, So instead of.

the Arts district, very cool space. We did a meetup before Crime con UK at their London location and we just adore them and they have such an amazing cool restaurant and lounge area where they totally welcome LA not so confidential. So if you're traveling in from out of town, like we said before, reach out to us if you need a place to stay, not meaning like we're going to put you up ourselves, but like we can point

you towards a safe area in downtown to stay. Parking in the Arts district is a huge pain, so I will just say come prepared for that. Maybe have to walk a block or so. If you do park yourself or Uber's a way to go for sure as well.

nineteen eighty six in Port Huron, Michigan. It's not a satire, and like all of his projects, Jason's heart and empathy leads the way as he attempts to inch closer to justice for both of these men. If you want to catch these conversations live, follow us on Facebook and Instagram for livestream dates, or check out our link tree, which you can find in the show notes.

eat the rich close quote. While there's no direct evidence that he wrote these exact words, the sentiment aligns with views on economic inequality and the corruption of the aristocracy. This idea was a reaction to the extreme wealth disparity leading up to the French Revolution, which was like seventeen eighty nine to seventeen ninety nine, where resentment against the ruling class fueled radical political movements. So do you hear

the people sing, doctor Scott? You like that? You like that I'm finally the one to put a musical reference in our intro.

really difficult for a lot of people. When I looked at like the little script note that you have here that the French Revolution was between seventeen eighty nine and seventeen ninety nine, I was like, fucked ten years of this shit. Oh my god, sorry for the language, folks. This is no holds barred with this stuff.

gun violence. We're talking about man made disasters, which we don't talk about very often, but I know that sort of freaks people out, and you probably know what we're talking about, but you definitely will by the end of this episode. So again, just listen with care with some of those things coming up today, right.

between the wealthy and everybody else keeps growing. CEO pay has shot up by a staggering one thousand, four hundred and sixty percent over the last few decades, now averaging three hundred and ninety nine times what the typical worker earns, without any proof that they're working harder or smarter. In fact, there's a lot of proof that's showing that they don't work harder and they don't work smarter. America's once thriving

middle class is rapidly shrinking, while billionaires are multiplying. And with all this happening, it's no wonder that so many people are frustrated with the ultra rich and questioning how this system keeps them on top.

economic policies and widespread prosperity. But this boom period was relatively short lived because in the decades that followed, shifting government policies and tax structures then contributed to a widening income gap, which led to concerns about the erosion of the middle class. But let's stick with some of the good stuff that happened. In the aftermath of World War II. The US economy expanded rapidly, and several factors contributed to

this growth. We have the GI Bill, which provided returning veterans with benefits such as housing, education, and unemployment assistance. This legislation played a significant role in expanding the American middle class by enabling millions to purchase homes and pursue higher education. But and not just as a side note, not all veterans were allowed to access these benefits. Black servicemen and women were not included in the full span

of benefits, acting as federal Jim Crow style impediments. And we also have the industrial expansion. The war effort had revitalized American industries, leading to increased production and job creation. This industrial boom continued into the post war years, providing ample employment opportunities for a broad segment of the population.

Detroit exploded as motor city with multiple auto factories that provided solid jobs for returning gis, with these jobs then becoming family legacies, and then we have the Southern States that boomed with widespread textile and clothing production.

what in political terms, is known as the commons. The commons is a concept that's been around since the inception of this country, and it's really not talked about nearly enough as it should. Unfortunately, it gets lumped into other terms like socialism instead of the commons. Right after the war, the top income tax rate was a staggering ninety four percent for the richest Americans. So anyone making over two hundred thousand a year, which in today's numbers would be

about three million a year. That wouldn't sound insane by today's standards, but it wasn't a flat tax. People only paid that high rate on income above that threshold, so it's not like we're taxing of all millionaires and billionaires. They are taxed for what they make over that amount, and for most of the nineteen fifties, the highest tax rate stayed around between ninety one and ninety two percent, which meant ultra rich individuals were contributing a massive chunk

of their income to the government. Now, let me be careful and make you understand there were also a lot of taxo poles. Then. One of the reasons we have theaters and parks and museums across this country is because all these wealthy people were like, I got to do something, I got to put some money somewhere and so I can have a write off. So they created these things. So in the middle of the Gilded Age, which we're heading back towards, a lot of people were building things

for posterity. But don't be sucked into the notion that they were doing it just for the good of the commons. They were doing it for their own Corporate taxation rates. Corporations also had high taxes at the time, between forty percent and fifty percent on profits, and the estate tax, which affects inherited wealth, had a top rate of seventy seven percent for massive estates. Capital gains taxes on things like stocks were twenty five percent, and payroll taxes for

Social Security were much lower than they are today. And people should not be taxed on their Social Security. But that's another soapbox I'm going to leave under my chair for today. But within just a few decades, starting in the late seventies and earth eighties, policy changes began to alter the complete economic landscape.

Policies that specifically targeted labor unions led to a decrease in union membership. Unions had historically played a crucial role in securing better wages and working conditions for middle class workers. And yes, this is a complex issue, as labor unions had allowed corruption of a few powerful movers and shakers to poison the well as it were. That could be a great idea for another episode. But you and I have worked in unions and around people who love their

unions for a very long time. You and I have both been union representatives and board members and things.

see proportional increases in income. Rising costs of essentials like healthcare, education, and housing further strained middle class finances. Another major shift was deregulation, which means reducing government rules and restrictions on businesses. This was another big focus of the Reagan era and beyond here's what happened. Banks and Wall Street were deregulated, which led to riskier financial practices. This played a huge

role in the two thousand and eight financial crisis. Corporations became more powerful and many focused on maximizing shareholder profits rather than paying fair wages or providing benefits. There's another factor of this that we won't go too far into, but this started with Nixon. When Nixon, prior to Reagan being in office, actually started deconstructing the system of medical care in our country. He empowered HMOs and insurance companies

to become for profit. Prior to that, it wasn't for profit. Most people had access to care, so there were certainly a lot more functional hospitals, and they worked better than they do today. As things have become managed care as they.

that hard and don't work that hard. To this day, more and more people are realizing that that's not really how things work. And there's also a big portion of the population that chooses to live in an echo chamber that has now convinced them that their lack of movement on the latter of success is because others have taken that opportunity away from them. Wealth and opportunity aren't as accessible as we were led to believe, and inequality is

getting harder to ignore. So take Donald Trump for example, a guy who inherited millions yet still manages to be seen by many voters as a regular guy. Meanwhile, most of the people who support him will never come close to his level of wealth. I mean, not even in one hundred lifetimes would they come that close. So it's this really strange contradiction, but it speaks to how deeply the idea of success and self made wealth is ingrained into American culture, even when the the reality of it

does not match up. So at the same time, there's this growing trend of financially stable young people who go out of their way to avoid being seen as privileged. In a world where privilege comes with social baggage, some are very eager to redefine their identities in a way that distances them from being labeled as part of the problem. An interesting offshoot of this is the world of high fashion. More and more, high fashion is moving away from anything

that denotes what the label is. You can see someone wearing a beautiful, beautiful Kashmir coat in New York and you can know that it's money from the way it's cut and the way the person is walking. But it has no labels on it. It's not super fancy, But that coat probably costs a minimum of twelve thousand dollars. That is a trend that is going on right now

in fashion and is being talked about. But all of this, this confusion about class success identity, it shows that we're still trying to figure out what economic fairness actually looks like in modern America. And I know we're going on and on and on about this, but this actually has a direct access to mental health, and that's what we're going to get to today for sure.

entities or groups. As you may have noticed in more recent years with the increased social media usage and content creation, more insight into how people react, cope, and let their views be known on everything is out there right including when these high profile incidents happen. And most of this content is not the kindest. It's like, where did the empathy go? The empathy is erased when you're behind your computer or phone.

and out groups. And I want to encourage our listeners think of a time when you demonstrated and us versus them mentality, let's say, as related to your job. Right. I think that's an easy one for everyone to do. It can be how is your knowledge different from a client or a customer. It can be a social group

maybe that you became a part of because of your job. Right, No one understands what I do like this other person who does what I do, whether it's none, other mental health professional, somebody in law enforcement, somebody in entertainment, we get it. We almost have like a language that we don't have to explain the backstory of it, and we

understand the ins and outs. I ask you to do this because it demonstrates how this happens just naturally, right, especially in professions that are really closely linked with our identities. That's why I pick that one. We all have worked at some point or another. The truth is, we feel more comfortable in our in groups than in out groups people that are different than us do to psychological and evolutionary factors that we are not necessarily consciously aware of.

In groups, groups we identify with based on shared characteristics like culture, interests, or background provide a sense of belonging, provides a sense of safety and mutual understanding. Evolutionarily, humans relied on tight knit groups for survival, fostering trust and fostering cooperation for the betterment of the human race to

live on and all of that. So social identity theory explains that we derive self esteem from our social group memberships, leading to favoritism towards our in group and potential bias against out groups. Again, this is implicit. This is something that we know, hence the reason we need to be aware of it, So things like discrimination doesn't happen, But we're saying this is totally natural and organic and there's

an evolutionary reason for it. Additionally, cognitive ease plays a role, so this is familiarity and shared norms that make interactions smoother and hence reducing uncertainty and social anxiety. There is an in group bias that also occurs. Here people show a pattern of favoring members of one's own in group over outgroup members. Innately, this likely stems from a will and a need to survive again when we were cavemen

living in our tribes. It also makes us as human beings feel good to have an in group.

that we're raised. It's what makes us and in turn, it's how that we end up interpreting the world and how it makes sense to us. So culture is really ingrained deeply within each of us, and yet it's something that we don't really see that often. It impacts almost all of our decision making, and yet we don't explicitly pay attention to it. It's the collection of thoughts, behaviors, interpretations, and especially it's the investment of time into who we

have become. It's how people then start to see us. So cultural conditioning also creates separations, It creates barriers and could be filled with prejudice. What is preferable to us, who we should talk to, and what attracts us is culturally conditioned and cultivated. So with all of this, I think one little note here about the false consensus effect is mentioning. This is a pervasive cognitive bias that causes people to quote see their own behavioral choices and judgments

as relatively common and appropriate to existing circumstances. And what we do is we overestimate how much others agree with us. And many factors can influence this, So, for instance, the information that is available to us, which is called the availability heuristic. It's how we kind of have these little mental shortcuts, and then it becomes this really difficult cycle to get out of when we're falling into this false

consensus effect. So just some psychobabble there to kind of tie this in, to start to understand what is part of our innate, built in biological behavior that keeps us safe. And then how do we sort of develop some of these thought patterns that are understandable but also we need to pay attention to so they don't start to lead to discriminatory behaviors.

to say, it's really good. We're going to give you sort of the cliff Notes version. He points out why movies like The Menu, Parasite, and Knives Out are wildly successful. It's not just those movies. There are great hit TV shows that I waited to the last minute to watch, like Succession, where the suffering may not be as grongwen all as the audience walks away pretty content in the misery of characters. I know I'm going to be fully

authentic and transparent here. I was so relieved that everything fell apart for the most part, for the characters in Succession, because for the most part they were just all complete narcapaths.

but also still sell a product? So these productions all have in common something that makes them even more appealing. They show rich people struggling, and let's be honest, a lot of us love seeing the wealthy go through hard times. I mean, even Shit's Creek one of my favorite all time shows, and it's a go to show when I'm

like having a bad day. Yeah, it starts with the premise that the roses all need to be taken down a few notches, but it's an absolutely lovely character arc that we all get to go, oh, look, they're human and they can develop. There's something in there, and we should give that sort of possibility for almost everyone. But this is also the real world, right.

this kind of coming? Hold wrap because it's so precient, you know. But I think that's also what really good writing does that sort of looks at what's happening right now and projects like, well, if this is happening, then the sequal a could be this. And it's not just in movies either. Protests, memes, even social media jokes will

often take aim at billionaires and the ultra rich. And there's a reason eat the rich has become a popular catchphrase again because it taps into a deeper frustration with wealth inequality. But the question is, why do people actually enjoy watching the downfall of the rich? Is it? David taking down Goliath, you know Traverse reviews some of our peers, you know, those in our field of psychology that have been doing research on this subject. And he really boils

it down into a few salient points, very very acutely. First, and I'm so glad at this point at the beginning, because it is one of my favorite words in the world. It has been and like I'm telling on myself, I'm telling on how little evolved I am. And that is schadenfreude. And schadenfreude is the German word for harm joy, basically feeling pleasure at someone else's misfortune, and it's out of the context of desiring come up, thence right and come up.

And since from being from southern culture, believe me, getting too big for your breeches was a big part of

like my upbringing in our family culture. And I think it's also it's important for people who actually individually have gone through hard times, they have faced hardships, they can get a little bit of, you know, a tickle, like saying, okay, finally that person is actually having to face real life right now, let's I want to be also for with like, you know, pleasure at someone else's pain is a bit

like sadism. This is different though, because, in really my clinical opinion, it is the inward and the outward expression of a desire for stability and a reflection of some healthy parts of righteousness and some unhealthy aspects of self righteousness. So there's a thin line there that I think a lot of people are not particularly aware of. And while I am way familiar with schadenfreude, like I said, I mean, I'm working on tapping it down. Don't worry, folks, I'm

really working on it. Travers finds some great research on emotional experience that pulls from a journal called New Ideas in Psychology, and the writer breaks the concept down into three main types, which is kind of amazing because I didn't really think that you would be able to further boil that down as a concept. But this is interesting. So first of all, he says, rivalry schadenfreude. We naturally compare ourselves to others, especially those who have more guilty.

Like I'm pounding a buzzer right now, right when someone of higher status stumbles, it can make us feel better about our own situation. Number two, aggression schadenfreuda, and this comes from an us versus them mindset. When wealthy elites them in this equation struggle, it reinforces our sense of belonging to the us, the regular people. And what's wild is I know some people that have never been regular people. Yeah, they will never be regular people, but they really do

see themselves as regular people. I mean, I'm talking about people that I know that are from generation after generation after generation of ultra wealthy. They've had a rarefied life their entire existence. But God love you for that perspective. And finally, there's justice schadenfreuda, and this is about fairness. If someone who seems undeserving of their wealth or power

faces consequences, it feels like justice is being served. Like there's a lot of new money that's been generated by probably the top five percent of influencers in the world. And when they act like assholes or jerks, where they do things that hurt other people or annoy other people, those are the ones that you like, really enjoy the

come upance up, I believe. In other words, when they're rich who often seem untouchable finally face some hardship, it feels like there's a balance that is being restored.

that these comparisons go two ways. The first is upward comparisons, So when we compare ourselves to people who are better off, it can be motivating or it can be depressing, hence the massive increase in depression and isolation that emerges from hours of scrolling on Instagram and other social media platforms, or just existing in a world where the wealth disparity is so huge. Right, then there's also downward comparisons so this is comparing ourselves to people who are worse off

makes us feel better about our own situation. I think I was even told that growing up as a way of coping of like someone always has it worse. It's like, Okay, I guess that's what I'll hang on to right now.

that was a completely different dynamic. But in a lot of sort of post Protestant thinking and ideology about wealth and poverty is that you are encouraged to minimize or negate your own feelings by comparing yourself to other people instead of like staying in the moment, rather than compare yourself to somebody that's worse off, or feel bad about somebody that's doing much better, it's better to you know, be in the center, in this mindful present state of

this is really tough. What can I find that is going right? What can I be grateful for and how can I keep moving forward?

a weird kind of mixed comparison. They might still be richer overall, but for that moment, we feel like we're actually in a better position than they are, and watching them fall reminds us that money doesn't protect people from sometimes just playing bad luck, which in a strange way we then end up find kind of comforting.

of capitalism and believe it only benefits the rich. While wealth and equality keeps growing, average person feels more and more stuck in a system that favors the ultra wealthy. And they're not wrong, by the way. So seeing rich people suffer, whether in movies, news headlines, or social media jokes, it offers an emotional release, you know, like you pointed out in me, it was relief, relief release, right. The article suggests that this collective frustration plays a huge role

and why people enjoy watching wealthy struggle. It's not just about laughing at billionaires. It's wanting to see fairness in a world that often seems very, very unfair.

I know he's only half as Guardian and the other half is Frost Giant. But that's beside the point.

with meaning and think. You know, one of the recurring things is I worked so hard to get here that I left parts of myself behind. How do I pull those back? How do I find contentment and happiness in moments? And that is really, to me, really fascinating work. So I want to I'm saying that to emphasize the importance of what she's writing about. But now on the other side, I want to give you some context regarding this publication because this is of course prime New York Post material.

The New York Post is it's barely journalism at times. I mean, it can do some incredibly interesting investigative stuff. However, their spin is always pretty granguinal. It's bloody, it's really fantastic, and it wants to grab you by the gut with its headlines. And of course, you know comedian John mulaney wildly talented but problematic guy. I'm happy that you're on

top of your challenges. I wish you the best. But he pointed out in one of his monologues that The Post delivers every story with the same level of urgency, whether it's about a murder or a sandwich, and that is absolutely true. If you're not familiar with the Post, go to the website and look at some of the stuff that they write about and the titles that they generate. It's very funny.

time that allows us to develop quality relationships. Being ultra rich creates its own bubble that not only creates emotional challenges in the individual's inner experience, but it also distances them from connection with the world at large. So Doctor Carol Lieberman, a Beverly Hills psychiatrist interviewed for the piece, asserted to the Post that wealthy folks often feel lonely, paranoid, and purposeless, which often leads them to manufacture drama in

their own lives. She stated, quote, people think if I had all that money, I wouldn't have a care in the world. End quote. Turns out she finds that money can't fix every problem, though it can buy a Rolex to make you feel better for a few hours.

first time I saw it. And it may not hopefully it's kind of flashed away rapidly as it shot up, But it was kids of the uber uber wealthy living these like kind of unbelievable fairy tale lives, like you know, two months on a yacht, you know, just but making jokes about their wealth, like having their arm out with like six rolexes each one of them, like you know, a seventy five thousand dollars or more rolex one of them, going so far as to say, this table is a

little wobbly, and so he uses his iPad under it to level it out, like just sort of conspicuous and in your face, that's gross joking. It is like, that's that's exactly my reaction is. It's gross. And of course they got trolled a great deal and a lot of outrageous responses, which only fueled it more. I would say it's primarily male posters than it is female posters, but shocking,

he's still pretty egregious. It is important to see how this plays out in legitimate means, though, with both Lieberman and don Leavy's research and their experience, it's working with these individuals because CNBC previously reported that the one percent struggle to maintain authentic relationships because friendships and even marriages often revolve about what they can provide. Basically, when you have a yacht. You can never be sure if people like you for you or for the free boat rides right.

According to Lieberman, rich people aren't keeping up with the Joneses. They're keeping up with the Cardassians, constantly competing with each other over status symbols, and that competition it only makes them lonelier. The higher the level of competition, the higher

level of loneliness. So earlier I also mentioned the value of free time, and free time is gold to struggling individuals who work sixty to eighty hours a week and have to try and push through exhaustion to care for families, kids, friends, and self. But ironically, too much free time when you don't have to work to survive, provides and simple, fruitful ground for meaninglessness. So what did the rich do? They

get into mischief? According to Lieberman, this can mean anything from gossip to affairs to straight up white collar crime. When your biggest stressor is figuring out whether to vacation in Aspen or the Amalfi Coast, you might start making bad decisions just to feel something.

reckless spending, risky behavior, and we see that all the time. Right, So Lieberman paints a picture of little ritchie riches with unlimited cash but no emotional support, which then makes them more likely to spiral. So you know what you're talking about of, Like, hey, let me just like make an Instagram reel of my wrist with seven rolexes on it? What are they doing with their day? They're not even the adults that are you know, having to think about making money every single day.

lot of emotional ones. The wealthy struggle with again this isolation and paranoia and just finding sometimes a reason to get out of bed in the morning, while the rest of us are just trying to afford rent and our mortgages. So let we're going to just talk a little bit more about what some of their therapists say.

psychology today. But what a lot of people don't understand is that if you hook into one person that really connects with you as a clinician, they will refer a lot of people to you, and it can be exploded. It can be so much that you have to like not take referrals anymore because your practice fills up so quickly. So in this instance, this seems to have happened for Cockrel. So his very tight, wealthy circle of referrals was literally

a selection of the one percent. And like Lieberman, he insists that wealth comes with real emotional baggage, deep isolation, mistrust, and a total lack of purpose. And he can also admit that it can be difficult to watch billionaire struggle inotionally while the rest of us are worrying about rent. And according to Cockrell, being obscenely wealthy comes with a paranoia problem. His client's echo Lieberman's early statements that clients constantly worry does this person actually like me? Or do

they just want my money? Am I being manipulated? Who can I actually trust?

Cockrell goes on to give the following scenario. Once you've made or inherited enough money to never work again, what's left. He believes that it leaves many millionaires feeling completely directionlessness and searching for their next thrill through reckless behavior, substances, or anything that can break the monotony of having too much. And despite money being the foundation of their entire lives,

wealthy people don't like to talk about it. Cockrell says that his clients would rather discuss their sex lives or drug habits more than their bank accounts. Money is treated as taboo, secret and even shameful, and that secrecy that only makes everything worse for sure.

is very real. Many billionaires spoil their kids rotten so they never have to struggle the way their parents did, which sounds nice on the surface, except what happens when you face no hardship. You don't develop resilience, When you never have to learn about money, you become financially incompetent. And when you only grow up around other wealthy kids,

there's this startling lack of empathy. So there's all of these problems that seem to be solved, but all of these problems and life lessons and ways to move through the world that get created. Children of the uber wealthy attend elite schools, socialize with only their own kind, and they grow up in a world completely detached from reality. By adulthood, often they're really unprepared to manage their wealth, much less take on responsibility. And Cockrell has heard countless

trust from babies say, we never talked about money. I don't know how much there is. I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with it. And you can imagine how that then plays out, especially if that bubble gets burst at some point. Right for them, they're completely unequipped.

that she has just now married into. And then you have this really really fascinating interaction with another great actress, Molly Shannon coming in as her mother in law, who's like, and she's just so bubbly and energetic and you can't help but lover. But everything that's coming out of her mouth is completely diminishing what Alexandra is trying to say. She's like, why would you want to work? I mean, you know, you could be on boards, you could be

on the board of directors for this. You can do you know, just like sort of you can come and play the role of someone who gives a shit rather than actually being someone who gives a shit. But that's all that character knows. That's all Molly Shannon knows, and she's like, why would you possibly want to do it? So again, I have not seen season two or season three because I'm still emotionally processing everything that went down.

which I thought was great. The first generation works very hard, often starting from humble beginnings, so they're in shirt sleeves to build wealth. The second generation grows up with the financial security and while they may still work, they don't have struggles like their parents did. And then the third generation, having never experienced hardship or financial discipline, squanders the wealth and ends up back where the family started in shirt

sleeves working just to get by. Now that's not saying that like complete family empires fall that it's about that individual falling. And you know, I have done clinical work with that third generation, with the grandparents going we worked our asses off, and this is what we did. I mean, this is what the result is. This makes no sense to me. You know, it's just like a never ending cycle in humanity, I think.

into its descent. The titan submersible was a small carbon fiber titanium sub designed for deep sea exploration. This was essentially a tourist expedition to view the Titanic wreck, located

twelve thy five hundred feet below sea level. Now that paragraph that I just read is a little bit inaccurate, because what comes up when you research this in the description is that on the surface level, unless you go a few pages deeper into a search, is that they do describe this small carbon fiber and titanium sub designed

for deep sea exploration. What happened in the aftermath of this horrific event was many experts came forward saying, no, it absolutely was not designed to do what it was doing. We told the head of this company over and over again, and he denied it, denied it, denyed. It hadn't been a problem before, so it's not going to be a problem in the future, which is problematic thinking. But back to the story. Five people were aboard the submersible Stockton Rush,

the CEO of Ocean Gate. Could you have more of a rich person sounding name than Stockton Rush, Hamish Harding, a British billionaire and adventurer, Shazada and Suliman Dawood, a Pakistani British businessman and his son. And Paul Henri Nargillla, a French Titanic expert.

that meant. You know, there was very little chance that there was anyone that survived, although we really had no idea what had happened. A large scale search and rescue operation was launched by the US and Canadian Coast Guards using everything they had aircraft, ships, and deep sea sonar equipment.

On June twenty second, twenty twenty three, debris from the titan was found near the Titanic wreck, affirming that the sub had suffered a catastrophic implosion, instantly killing all five passengers.

Experts believe the pressure hull failed, likely due to material fatigue or design flaws, a sub to collapse inward in just milliseconds, and honestly, at that point, that was the quickest death we really could have hoped for for these doomed individuals, because the idea of them running out of oxygen over hours was just so so hard to understand and honestly to hear when these experts would come on and be like, well, they're still alive, they're experiencing this.

It was awful. Ocean Gate, as you mentioned, faced very heavy criticism for ignoring safety warnings from industry experts. The company's use of experimental carbon fiber materials was questioned, as deep sea subs typically use steel or titanium, and ocean Gate ceased operations and the disaster raised concerns over these

unregulated deep sea tourism trips. To multiple reports, each passenger on the ocean Gate Expedition to the Titanic wreck paid two hundred and fifty thousand dollars each to go on this expedition. At the time, Doctor Scott like, what kind of social media content around this did you consume or were you seeing?

were saying, is how could they have survived? Believe me, I am no deep sea expert at all in any any sense, but even I know about from probably science fiction and my husband working on the ABYSS, and okay, a bunch of stuff like this is like no, like the incredible pressures at depths like that, you don't die slowly, you are dead. Boom, your che collapses and collapses upon itself, like like you are stepping on a soda can and just crushing it. That's what happened immediately that, So I

was like, no, they're dead. There's absolutely no way They're sitting there floating in the deep cold of the sea with no oxygen. It was like, now this is you.

incredibly creative. It's how it felt in the moment. I did have the forethought and the self awareness to be like, what am I enjoying right now?

I don't know. I honestly don't know if that's being cruel because I think it was all pretty stupid still my take on it today, But that comes from my upbringing and my own finances. Why would you spend two hundred and fifty thousand dollars on this? Like, I just like to go, is your life so rarefied that this is an experience you're going to do. I feel the

same way about paying a million dollars to go into space. Yeah, yeah, but I get it, Like that's my personal thing, and I think that the reason I'm sharing that is because I think that's what drove a lot of this is like that observation of like, you people are so detached from the reality of what the rest of us are experiencing. Now, all of that being said, I felt really bad for the.

I'm kind of laughing. Let me sit in the mindfulness of this emotion and think about why I'm feeling this way. I think that can be helpful in times like this. So La Times writer Jessica Gelt, and she's an opinion writer. I want to make sure that I highlight that because she gets a little school Marmie finger wagging in this article.

That's my opinion. But she asserted that the tragedy unleashed social media's worst impulses, with creators mocking the victims, ridiculing the video game controller used to steer the sub and making crude jokes about their final moments. And while I appreciate the direction and the tone of her writing regarding the reactions, I think that that article allows a few things to get lost, including points like the very badly, badly constructed vessel that was controlled by a gamer. Set

like that is a problem. Why are you making fun of these things? Well, they're making fun of these things because they shouldn't have happened. And you would think that somebody that's charging two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a

pop would be able to do this now. Something that she does that I really appreciate is that she highlights the comparison about the world was just being glued to updates about the submersible about the Titan, while seven hundred and fifty migrants drowned off the coast of Greece just days before, with only one hundred and four people surviving. Yet that story barely made a ripple in global media. That to me, is the point that I think needs

to be brought out. The stark difference in coverage raises serious questions about whose lives are deemed worthy of attention, but doesn't look to median conglomerates like her own employer and the role that they play in deciding what gets attention. But I fully disclose that her piece, like I said,

is commentary. It's a necessary commentary that points out wealth inequality has reached new extremes where the world's three thousand billionaires hold more wealth than half the planet, and she goes on to use the example that it's no wonder that some social media users are openly rooting for orcas to attack luxury yachts. She also points out that despite the class tensions. One Twitter user made a valid point, it's possible to care about both the drowned migrants and

the missing billionaires. Totally agree, it is possible to do that, and maybe the challenge for us and me in these moments is maintaining that human decency means acknowledging that all suffering exists, not just picking and choosing whose lives matter. So I'm going to be authentic and saying that I had a reaction to this op ed. I thought it

was well written. I think that she ends up making some really good points, but you know, we should not have judgment, but you have to understand the context of the comparisons. That's what I'm leading. But she also ends her piece with a very sobering question. If a camera inside the Titan showed the terror in the passenger's eyes,

would people still be making jokes? Yes, they would. I don't think those people making those jokes of that slice would be people that we would be necessarily interested in their opinion, because then that truly has gone into sadism and like a level of cruelty that is beyond Yeah.

the ambushed victim. So here we do have that reaction from the person who's suffering. We then started to get more details of the attack and then of the wanted person. We learned that the shell casings of the rounds shot at the crime scene had messages seemingly related to the mangled healthcare system on them. The words denied, delay, depose

were written upon them and left at the scene. This aspect of a possible motive sparked debates about the healthcare industry's practices, with many expressing anger over coverage denials and profit motives and the like. Something many people can relate to. So that's just with that little bit of information, which honestly I mean I say little, but it was a big deal. I think you and I even talked about

it on a shrink wrap when it was unfolding. That felt very theatrical, right, So people glommed onto that and already started making content about those points. Then in this timeline, we got some still camera shots of the suspect checking into the New York hostel using a fake ID before the incident, so even before the suspect was identified, those pictures of the suspects smile that they flashed to the

hostile worker while checking in. Along Now with the act itself, I mean, the media and internet just like loved that. We're not even, We're not even. Like a couple days into this, right, things felt really different how he was being seen, not just as a suspect, but as a symbol. I mean, for many people, he started to represent something bigger than himself, like this avatar of frustration, a figure that really resonated with kind of anyone who's ever struggled

under the weight of medical debt. And people couldn't help themselves by saying that he should go free, or they hope he gets away, or nobody should turn him in with that brilliant smile. And remember, we didn't even know if this was a man or a woman at first, so there was all you know. I think the unanswered questions left a lot of room for people to sort of start making up their own lore behind these emotionally

motivating factors. But eventually Luigi Maggioni was arrested days later in Pennsylvania carrying a three D printed firearm and a manifesto criticizing the US healthcare system. We had our guy at this point. The extradition to New York was like something out of a movie. This is kind of the next big pivotal moment after we learned who he was. They had politicians wanting to get in on this purp walk moment. They landed the helicopter at the end of a peer and had him surrounded by what looked like

the cast of the Swat television show. Is he kind of limped along shackled in his chains in this bright orange jumpsuit and everyone else is wearing black. I mean, if I'm ever arrested, like this is the shot that I want. Please, if someone would give me this much attention about what I had done. This is what the script is written. But it just like when we talk about the visual nature of the stuff that we consume. They were literally just feeding it to us at this point.

So Maggioni has pleaded not guilty to terror and murder charges in New York and he's currently awaiting trial. But it's so interesting because this has little bits and pieces that I think feel very similar to other cases, feel also different, feels like a hybrid between a couple of things going on here.

that's the only commentary I feel saying. He presents really well, and he has a strong social media presence prior to the event that features many photos of his shirtless torso and just an absolutely captivating and winning smile. So he looked. It is the whole. It is the entire package, the entire package. And he is regarded by many in his life as both a thoughtful and gregarious individual, as well as having some very non mainstream beliefs about history and culture.

that energy. I mean, I'm not going to give I'm not going to assume that Kazinski had the ability to function at that level because he didn't. The guy had serious, serious mental issues.

But there's a small aspect of the Robin hood trope that people are finding very attractive. So endless content is being made lusting over this guy, from those old photos of him shirtless to recent courtroom appearances of him in fashionable sweaters and loafers and really good grooming. Now there was also something very interesting. I don't necessarily fully buy

into this, but let me give people a context. So defense attorneys absolutely hand arrange for their clients to have access to decent clothing and to improve their grooming, especially if it's a high end defender. But I did see a very interesting piece. So I don't know if his defense attorneys were like, get a good barber in here that can style hair to make him even more camera friendly. Right, But there was an ex con really good writer who

wrote an entire piece. His opinion piece was that Luigi was being seen as a hero in the jail because he came out with the top line prison haircut. Like he said, they're treating him like a hero because they all get it, and that he's probably being treated this way, in this way and this way. But that's hearsay, Like it's an interesting take, but there actually is no confirmation on who did the grooming of him. I know for some people they may think, why are you two focusing

on his grooming? But that actually is an important part. It's like the defense is saying, we're going to go all in with this. He is like so camera friendly. He doesn't have a bad angle no matter how he turns his face, even when his face is at rest, it's like looking at a statue. Right, We're going to play this absolutely because we're going to make him a martyr. I think that's totally going on, right.

mainstream with this case, which is just super interesting. Just I think another interesting, really side note of this all in terms of social media content that came out in people's reactions where they were making videos not even mentioning him. But right after this this event happened, or families, parents, you know, people were getting online talking about their heartbreaking stories of horrendous treatment by the managed care system in

that company. Yeah, and they didn't even have to say boo about Luigi, right, it was just here's our family story. And those things really went viral, which good, we need to hear those sides of it. And they weren't advocating one way or another. It was just like here's a real story that happened to us.

but I understand why. Yeah, right, So there was this sort of there is Look, if you have enough money to invest in the stock market and part of your portfolio represents that company, then Brian is going to be your guy, right because he made money by denying care for people. Right. That is a really difficult concept, not a difficult concept to think anybody listening to this is

going to understand that concept. But that's a difficult place to sit in to understand that this person with a huge, winning smile on all of his CEO pictures and LinkedIn and everything, you know, he was human as well. He was doing the job he thought that he was supposed to do because it's about the shareholders and people like that in that position. And I'm not justifying it because I don't agree with it, but I do understand what

the challenge there is. The challenge is to divorce, cut off, even to the point of being like the show Severance, you are severing that part of your identity and not taking responsibility for your role in the world. Or maybe you see your role in the world as to make money for your company rather than to contribute to the commons,

contribute to the betterment of society. And then there were also things that finally came out as like, he wasn't this smiling angel in a nice little sweater set and winning smile as well, he wasn't like this completely innocent guy in other areas of his life. Did that mean that he deserved to be shot down in public? No, it doesn't, but it does. Nobody needs more profundity to this discussion, I.

becomes infatuated with his wealthy classmate Felix. And I love because the opening scenes are all at Oxford University on the campus grounds, and I've been there a couple of times, like one of my favorite cities in the whole world, and I'm just like, oh, it gave me all these warm, fuzzy feelings at the beginning, and then it turns really really quickly, but essentially, Felix, the wealthy classmate, invites Oliver to spend the summer with him at his family's very

opulent British estate called Saltburn. Of course it has a name, right, So Oliver really ends up becoming entwined in the lives of the Canton family. The sister, the elderly, very wealthy father, and his younger wife in this complex web of obsession and deception, and it has all the good stuff that we love to see, with the opulent parties and the kids just behaving badly and just not knowing where that's

going to go. It's interesting because the critics have noted the film's thematic parallels to what we've talked about a lot, the talented mister Ripley with this exploration of desire and identity within elite social circles. So like, you know, if you're looking for something to watch, you just want to be all in, Like visually it's great, and then it's also very twisted and you're like, oh my god, what am I watching right now? So basically, I mean the

character Oliver eats this family from the inside out. I mean he really carefully crafts his way into their lives over this summer break from Oxford and dismantles them, possibly you know, killing some of them, or suckers them into eventually gaining their wealth playing the very long game years

down the road. I really love Saltburne. I didn't know what to expect going into it, and you know, some of it was like shocking, and I just I highly, highly recommend it with just this very stylish examination of obsession, class disparity, sort of the lengths individuals will go to to attain acceptance and wealth. So I think it's a great contemporary psychological thriller that fits perfectly with what we're talking about today.

I be in this, right. So the film follows this young couple of Margot who is Anya Taylor Joy and Nicholas Holt as Tyler, and they go to an exclusive island restaurant. By the way, I would never fucking do that. No, creepy as hell to me.

it's very stylistic. You hate some of the characters immediately there's such dude bro assholes, but as the evening unfolds, the chef presents this elaborate multi course meal with each of the dishes just like meticulously crafted with like layers of deeper meaning, which is really funny because look, I've been lucky enough to have some very expensive meals in my life. It's not a regular basis, but you know, I've had some like two big ones in my life. Yeah, and it is a big deal to the chef, like

it is there. It is the chef mentality, is the creativity and like making the eating experience art, which is just not something that I grew up with. That's like very alien to me. Right, So, but I'm trying. You know, my experiences were really good and it was like, Okay, I get this, but it becomes very very clear, very quickly that this particular menu and this particular meal, the

dinner is not just about the food. It is very meticulously orchestrated psychological and physical ordeal for all of the guests. Because all the guests are elite food critics or wealthy patrons, celebrities and their entourage. Yeah, and they quickly realize that they're trapped in a carefully designed experiences that is just

getting way out of hand. And to see all of them fall apart, I don't even want to get If you haven't seen it, guys, you really really have to see it because the look of horror and anger on people when they like the confusion, like the confusion like this one is even in the I'm not getting anything way, because this is in the previews. Is like when a table gets their order of tortillas and the tortillas have printed on them in edible ink or it's burned into it,

like the financial spreadsheets for all of their financial crimes. Right, they're like, right, what the fuck is this? You know, like just that sort of trying to put it together. And I mean again, it's also the acting is really great. But Anya Taylor Joy plays Margo. She wasn't supposed to be part of the guest list. She came by accident because the person that was in her place wasn't able

to go. So her being an outsider disrupts the whole planned evening and she is a very tough individual and she confronts the chef and it becomes this battle of wills. I mean, it's so over the top crazy and yet you go, well, this could happen probably, but like I mean, it's not science fiction y. It's just like like knives out almost. It's just very very well constructed. So it is just really a great example of privilege, entitlement and the fine dining industry, which is I enjoy good food,

but I don't want to. I don't want to breathe salmon foam while I'm you know, roll all the time, desiccated green being between my fingers, you know, just the weird things. Anyway, some very highly recommend it, both of them.

So White Lotus it's a dark comedy drama anthology series, but there is some overlap there, and it's created by Mike White, who we've mentioned, and really he loves to play on the satire of privileged wealth social dynamics through the lens of luxury vacations, which I'm here for as well, because all these shows make you want to do is

book your next vacation and have such travel envy. But in it, each season follows a different group of wealthy guests at the White Lotus resort in a different location. So season one was Maui, season two was Taromina, Sicily, and then season three is in Thailand. And so all of these like personal flaws, entitlement, hidden tentions all gradually lead to some sort of there's definitely like betrayals and scandals happening, but there's some sort of like wacky death

that happens at the end of all of these. So all seasons depict how the rich are incredibly insulated from true consequences of life, but also of their own doing right, their own flaws, the arrogance, the greed, the moral decay, and a lot of this ends up being super self inflicted. But White Lotus is great again. I know, probably everybody's watching it right now. Anyway, I saw.

not the reason, but it happened. It's happened like three different times at one resort where the bartender is making drinks with like ever clear or something, or they're like our moonshines, like we don't have any tequila, so we'll just make up really sweet margaritas. With whatever I've got in the back and they're all dead, like, you know, just family die. It's terrible one thing, and then I'll get off the Parker posey pony. This is how great of an actor

she is. There's a remake of Lost in Space that is on Netflix and has three seasons. Unfortunately, it's not consistent. It's a great idea. She plays the doctor that was played by a male. Traditionally that role was male.

really fascinating, which won the Oscar I was not. I don't know if I think that this movie deserves like Best Picture. Ye, my husband loved it, and my husband is very critical of movies. But Anora and I highly recommend watching it because it shows the story of the youngest child of Russian oligarchs and how now and this actor playing him is I mean, the kid's going to

be a star, absolute star. But you see this arc of people the haves versus the have nots, especially when it's in sort of like the criminal world, Like, you know, here's somebody that probably his money has come from arms dealers or whatever like that, and he has this that just is running wild like they can't contain him. So kind of circling back to Titan and the Submersible, there

will be a documentary on Netflix this year. It's going to focus on this incident and it's going to examine Stockton Rush and his quest to become the next billionaire innovator and you know what led to the tragic endeavor. And I'm hoping that that will make people who watch it kind of really reconsider, like what's the price of ambition. I don't think that lesson will be heard by anybody that particularly needs to hear it, but.

see you next time on La Not So Confidential. Bye guys, bye, folks, call sincerely, thank you for spending some time with us today. La Not So Confidential is part of the Cralspace media network. Each episode is hosted, produced, and written by doctor Scott and doctor Shiloh. Our post production, editing and sweetening magic is handled by the multi talented Jason Usri of ear Cult Productions.