Seafarers at the Helm

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Kunanagle podcast series, Shipping Insights. I'm your host, Sarah Vollmer, Senior Vice President of Global Sea Logistics Customer Engagement at Kunanagle. Together, we're about to embark on an exciting journey through the world of seafraying. With a front row seat to the industry's ups and downs over the past two decades, it's my pleasure to bring to you the latest developments, innovations, and solutions.

Whether you're a seasoned pro or simply curious about logistics, get ready for enlightening conversations and expert insights in our latest episode. Let's dive into the fascinating world of Seafray and welcome our newest guest. Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of Kunaggle's Shipping Insights Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Vollmer, and today a really exciting guest.

Today we have Jeremy Nixon with us and we are so excited to have a chat with him and actually talk about something a little bit different than what we're usually talking about. We want to talk a little bit more the human side of things. and how it works out at sea. I know throughout my career I've always had a lot of questions.

about how many people does it take to operate a vessel? What do they do? Aren't they in danger? Especially when we think about the various geopolitical issues that we have right now. So without further ado, I'd like to bring on our guest. Jeremy, why don't you take a moment and introduce yourself to our audience? Although you don't really need an introduction, but I'm gonna ask you to do it anyway.

Oh yes, of course I do, Sarah. Absolutely. So Jer Jeremy Nixon, I'm the global CEO of Ocean Network Express, or O N E as we call it. Uh we're we're a major container shipping company uh operating in about a hundred and forty countries in the world, uh moving about twelve million containers a year. And uh I'm really excited to talk about this side of the business which

really is hidden away from so many of our customers and and so many people outside of the industry. Yep, absolutely. And so for those of you that are maybe listening that are not in the industry If you've been on the the roads and you see a magenta or hot pink shipping container. That's ONE. So I I love your color. I'm a pink fan, so thank you for the pub. Of course. So I think let me start off by saying, you know, back in the what fifties or sixties, right, there was um a thing called solos.

that was brought into effect. And why don't we maybe set the tone with solos first so people kind of understand where we're going here with our conversation. Yeah, I mean you know, seafaring is a a very ancient historical industry that goes back thousands and thousands and thousands of years.

And uh particularly in the last two hundred years with modern commerce and particularly in the last hundred years with international trade just exploding, um that the need to move your product or goods across

the oceans became more and more critical to do that safely, uh to do that in a professional way, where there was a a standardized process, a standardized way of handling it from insurance From a financing standpoint The the customers would get paid and the shippers and consignees would get paid.

And at the same time the seafarers would be operating on ships that were safe to operate on. So we have a a whole raft of legislation that supports that. But we're very lucky as a seafar uh as a shipping industry because we have the United Nations in terms of the IMO, International Maritime Organization, which is the regulator overseeing this whole process. And uh, you know, we're very, very lucky to have that. Very few industries have that.

total global view on things. Uh we're outside of all the yeah. Yeah. We're outside of all those national boundaries. We're we're the guys working right out in the oceans, international waters. So uh You know, if you don't have some sort of standardization or some common understanding, then it's you know, people could make all sorts of shortcuts and problems. Sure, of course. So I think, you know, again, I get asked, I've been asked and I and I said in my intro a lot.

How many people you see the big vessels and you know we talk post Panamax and and and that those are the really big ones, guys, as you're listening, that you that you see out in the waters that have just uh what it seems like endless amounts of containers on them. How many people does it really take to to manage one of these giant vessels?

Well so so if you look at a cruise ship, you know, you the the size of the cruise ship is is is linked to the number of passengers on board or people on board, but that's not the case for container ships. There's probably around about six and a half thousand container ships in the world operating today.

Everything from a hundred container size or TU, I think we're a w all aware of that term, twenty foot equivalent unit, about a hundred TU going all the way up to the largest vessels today, which are around twenty four thousand. Um essentially you need a master or a captain of the ship and you need a chief engineer to run the mechanical and operational side of this of the vessel. And then you have a a sequence of different people on board doing different roles and responsibilities.

But I would say the average container ship, whether it's uh four thousand TU size, which is the old Panamax size that we were all very much used to historically in the industry, right up to twenty four thousand. You're looking at between twenty to twenty six to twenty eight people on board a vessel.

So uh you know, it it it doesn't it is not dimensional by the by the size of the ship. It everybody has a specific role to do. And uh whether it's a big ship, medium sized, small ship ship, actually the crew numbers don't vary too much. Ha, okay, so twenty to twenty-six, twenty-eight people on a vessel that has twenty-four thousand TE.

That's right. Yeah. Wow, including the captain and the first officer. Yep, indeed. Indeed. So you typically have the master of the vessel who's overall responsible and in charge.

Uh you would have between three and four navigating officers on board. who provide twenty four seven coverage. of when the vessel is at sea. And uh on similarly on the engineering side you'll have an engine room team. So you have a chief engineer who is overall responsible for the whole mechanical and operational aspects of the ship. Uh and they will be s and that they're supported by three or four or sometimes five engineering officers, again working twenty four seven.

And then we have what is loosely termed as the crew, but actually who are highly important. Mae'n yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r are there for specific duties in and around safety and fire fighting. Uh every vessel has to have a a a lookout on the bridge wing.

Particularly when we get into uh close quarters situations or weather deterioration, etcetera. So everybody's got a specific role. We've got engineers on board who are specifically electrical because we carry a lot of uh refrigerated containers these days and that all that needs to be monitored and managed. uh crew on board whose job is to, you know, feed the crew themselves. So we have a a galley and we have you know our our ships cook.

Probably as I say somewhere between twenty to twenty-six to twenty-eight people maximum generally on this type of ship. That's that's so impressive. But yes, you're right. You can't forget about the the cook and the chef, right? Everyone has to eat, especially as you're out at sea for you could be out for four weeks. Or or whatnot. Indeed, Sarah, and that's what people you know, people don't realise that, right? And the ships are a long way offshore.

And uh you need to be s totally self sufficient and work twenty four seven. Well let's talk a little bit about that, you you know, with that. So

People are away, could be a week, it could be two weeks, it could be four weeks, who knows, depending on the world of congestion or or routing at any given time. what could happen when these, you know, these men, men and women maybe, or is it is it primarily just men that are out at sea? What could happen to them during this time? Yeah, so so just to add a little bit of context to that, to the points you just raised there, uh typically on the container ships, uh the officers and crew

are running somewhere around about a four month secondment at any one time. Um and then they would have two to three months. uh vacation after that. Um they Uh, don't all change at the same time. Uh that used to be the old model. I mean I you know, I'm very humbly was a was a very junior uh seafarer myself at the age of eighteen and we would all join the ship together, right? And then we'd all leave the ship together and it was

It was like uh, you know, all your shipmates all all in the same thing. But that changes completely these days and we rotate the officers and the crew, so we have consistency of operations and oversight. on what's going on. So so yeah, if if you say very, very approximately around four months away, two months at home, um and and uh you know that that's a kind of typical

Tipal operation. And then yes, absolutely, we we we we this is no longer a male dominated industry. Uh we have uh a lot of very, very capable and very, very good female crew.

Um traditionally uh we uh that that that has that has increased over time. Um even back in my days when uh back in the days of the Ark, you're probably thinking when I first went to see

Uh we we did have some uh lady navigating cadets, uh female officers, uh but it was certainly the exception. Um now it's uh increasingly happening more and more and actually it provides uh it it provides a good uh I I I think a more healthy lifestyle and and um and you know better inclusion, more opportunities for people and it also widens obviously the talent pool for seafaring.

Right, of course. Well, it's nice to see some some women here into the mix uh from from that point of view, um, and across the board, especially within our industry. So Now, I know there was a few years ago um there was there was a few years ago there was, you know, a movie c that came out that was based on a real life story of of something that happened off the coast of Africa. Uh it was with one of your competitors. Um

Is that still happening? Is that still a risk today? I mean, does n is there fear of pirates? that could could actually come into your vessel? So I would say, you know, looking at risks, right? I mean what what are the risks on board a vessel? And these are these are very large assets moving across oceans and sea.

That the most obvious risk is Uh um weather related, although the sh the vessels are very much designed these days and if they're properly navigated and and we use a lot of weather routing systems and stuff like that to avoid bad weather. We're looking continuously at the the wave heights and we're using artificial intelligence and all this kind of stuff to try and minimize the risk of to to the vessel. Uh but typhoons and all that kind of stuff happens, of course.

Um and then the the other big risk is is is potentially fire on board. That's a very, very serious concern which I which I'll come back to. But but I think to you know to your point, yeah piracy is is is still an issue. Absolutely. And specifically right now, uh we we still have piracy risks in the Indian Ocean and off West Africa. Uh occasionally in Southeast Asia.

But the biggest risk of course that we're all very much aware of at the moment is vessels actually being attacked or or or being fired upon. by uh outside influences. And the biggest or an o obviously of that at the moment is the developments that have taken place in the Red Sea. And uh you know, from from the middle of uh December last year. we saw um uh hostile act being taken by the Houtis where they actually uh captured a vessel. Uh and then from then onwards we've seen virtually

every other day attacks on on any vessels going through through that Red Sea routing, uh by missiles, by drones, uh by by people attacking uh attacking the vessels and it's really very serious. So We as a company and many of our uh other fellow uh competitors have taken the policy decision not to put our crews at risk, not to put our customers' cargo at risk.

And so we we divert round the Cape of Good Hope. We do not go through the Red Sea. Um but piracy is something that we we we we are very much aware of. We have much better intel intelligence these days. We work with various authorities, various uh defence establishments who give us good feedback. And where the risk is very high and we cannot deviate Then actually we will have armed guards on board and we will take various measures.

to minimise the risk of the vessel being attacked by pirates or boarded by by by by pirates. How do how do you make your people feel safe when there's really nowhere to go? So you know the uh the the the piracy uh issue has been has has has developed more and more in the last fifteen years uh i i there are specific people that specialize in piracy

Uh i it's uh it it at the moment fortunately i it it's not as severe as it was, but uh we go back to eight, ten years ago it was very serious and uh many, many of us had to have armed guards on our ships. Particularly uh basically going west of Sri Lanka and going uh up in just before getting in uh up to towards Djibouti and the Red Sea, uh we were regularly being uh coming under risk of of of pirate attacks and very sophisticated as well. Tracking the ship.

um uh with high speed boats uh using uh armed armed uh you know uh f weapons etcetera. Very, very serious situation. But the most um you know, so so you've got that kind of side of things. You know, we have got uh so say I mean y you know vessels can can can can can have navigational problems, engine breakdowns. uh could run aground. Um but probably the one that I think, you know, the highest one that we are concerned about continuously.

Uh all all of these are very, very serious. But the one that's the most concerned i is the fires, and particularly the cargo fires. And one of the concerns we have in the container shipping industry is that we are loading, you know, all these containers onto the vessel.

And uh they are said to contain. They are, you know, declared by the shipper or by the consignee in terms of what the commodities and contents are. They have to be packaged and properly stowed uh within the containers under the IMO code. Um but occasionally that doesn't happen. People can sometimes misdeclare what's inside the container, don't provide proper packing equipment, etcetera. And then then we start running into the risks of having fires aboard.

Well that just happened the other week, right? Not you know, not on your vessel, but on somebody else's vessel. It's very serious. Well the the container shipping industry, uh the World Shipping Council estimates that every sixty days we have a serious fire on a ship. It it's extremely scary situation. The vessel catches fire uh the cargo catches fire within a container.

Uh w we don't know exactly what's inside the container. We'll go to the manifest, we'll look it up, but you know, has it been declared properly? Is all the information to hand? And then, you know, how flammable or how dangerous is it? And and we have to very, very quickly set up a firefighting teams. This is very well Uh you know, we go through a series of drills, we we work all that through, we're working with the shore-based teams to give advice and help.

But, you know, when that when you're in difficult weather, difficult conditions, the wind's blowing, uh you're unshore, sometimes these fires are very high up in the ship, very difficult to access. the crew have to be extremely professional to try and handle that fire and knock out the fire as quickly as possible to avoid it spreading. And I think, you know As an industry, many people will be aware we've had some very, very significant casualties.

due due to misdeclaration of cargo, hazardous cargo that's exploded, caught fire, and in some cases even taken the ship down and and you know, putting putting seafarers at tremendous risk. uh w when these fires happen in terms of their personal safety. Is there anything that can be done, you know, with this in terms of uh again, it's you're very much at the mercy of

other people advising correctly what's in their in their container. Is there anything that can be done? Or do we just continue to hope and pray that everything was declared properly? So the the industry takes safety extremely seriously as you would imagine. And uh you know, we're doing a lot on the weather side, we're doing a lot in terms of the the design of the ship.

the stowage and lashing systems on board to minimize uh the risk of of stability problems or the vessels breaking down or containers breaking loose or all that kind of stuff. But uh th the the biggest issue as I say is is is those uh hundred and fifty million containers a year that the industry's moving. Um I think, you know, probably Ninety five percent of all customers are very honourable, very upright. very, very professional in the way that they work.

But it's the it's the five percent that is the risk. And uh it could it could be less than that. So what we are trying to do as an industry, uh e each of us is in our own rights with our our companies, uh we're doing a lot more work around checking and screening the cargo uh before accepting the bookings and we have these hazardous cargo regulations which are very, very strict and IMO regulated. and uh there is a an onus on on customers to book their cargo correctly and declare it correctly.

But we're now moving into more sophisticated digitalization and AI devices to look and and try and project forward, uh you know, does this commodity make sense? Is it Have we heard of that description before? Does does the does the the weight of the container that's been declared match that type of commodity type?

Do we normally pick up that kind of uh commodity from this particular port pair? Is it moving on these particular zones? Have we heard of this particular shipper before, etcetera, et cetera? So we're getting more sophisticated at that. And The uh the World Shipping Council uh is uh which represents all the shipping container lines.

is now working on a program, a cargo safety program, which will probably be brought in over the next twelve months, which provide an additional level of screening to try and you know project more and predict more and cut out some of these risks. But it i it's it's an ongoing issue and it's something we have to be very, very diligent over. Oh my goodness.

So many things, right? To to be concerned with and and your crew and and the crews around the world on all the different vessels. Wow, they really they have a lot to contend with. They do, they do. And they're you know, they're working twenty four seven many of the time. You know, so we have these typical shift systems on the vessel.

you know, you y you tend to work four hours on, eight hours off, going twenty four seven. But also during your eight hours off, it's it's not all recreation. You'll have some additional administrative duties on the vessel. In fact, you know, you're away from home, you often, you know, can be put into some very stressful situations. And so it's a it's a tough life and we have to really manage that very, very professionally as the ship management companies and the ship operators.

Uh these days, you know, we we do provide Uh the internet. The Wi Fi. We try to provide better uh communication so people can keep in touch with their loved ones more efficiently. They can they can get online, they can talk like you and I are as well. So we have satellite systems to be able to do all of that. But the the area that gets also very stressful is i is if there is um

problems around their ability to come ashore and and take vacation uh to take some shore leave. So when we go into the go into the ports and terminals, we try to give uh the crew time off while the vessel's alongside, uh, to be able to go and

stretch the legs, to be able to go do some personal shopping, wha what whatever, you know, is is their particular requirements. But during Covid this was an extremely difficult problem because many, many countries in the world shut their borders. To seafarers. So, you know, if you were in the airline industry, uh we we were still flying the air, the planes, we were still allowing the air crews, the pilots,

to to dis to embark and disembark from from the aircraft and go home in the evenings or whatever. But the seafarers were treated as a completely different situation, which was really unjust. They were not allowed to come ashore, they had to stay on the vessels. Um and therefore, you know, for for many, many months they could not get ashore and and have some type of leisure time. And the situation got even worse because Normally we do these crew changes I say every three to four months.

And we fly the crews in, we fly the crews out from their home countries to to to the individual vessels. And often we were not allowed to even do the crew change. So during the Covid period Many of the crew were on board for not four months, but six months, eight months, even up to twelve months. And this was extremely stressful and extremely difficult. And we've worked with the United Nations and we've worked with many countries to sail off.

If this happens again, you know, we have to come up with a better way of protecting the crews and ensuring that they don't have to have such very, very difficult hardships in this way. Unbelievable. I you know, I I think we didn't really think about that, right? Because you're right. I think you saw a little bit of the airline industry, the planes are still flying.

captain in the crew, they were able to go about their their daily lives. But the folks, the seafarers weren't able to do so. And then you combine it with you know, especially during COVID, the congestion, especially on the US West Coast that was out there and ships sitting out there for weeks and weeks and weeks and just compiling the issue. Um, and and I can only imagine what these folks went through and and

how they didn't go absolutely um stir crazy, so to say, on a vessel. And I think, you know, la COVID had an impact on all of us personally, right across the world. And people took Different views about it afterwards in terms of their lifestyle choices or their working choices, right? And there's no doubt, as an industry, we did lose some seafarers.

uh, who said, you know, we could never go back to doing that again and whatever. So I think we're rebuilding our industry, we're rebuild rebuilding our trust, we've got new seafarers coming through, we're training and we're trying to put in place better

safe measures in the future, uh, to to to try to avoid this situation. But y i you know, a pandemic is a pandemic and this th the pandemic, you know, th ultimately the decision around health and immigration is made by individual governments in individual countries and individual ports and by individual municipal ports and mayors, etcetera. So we still face that risk and that problem. But uh yeah, we we have to do a better job next time globally uh managing uh the the these health issues.

not just for seafarers and for shipping, uh, but i in in in in our normal national governments and lifestyles, right? All the way around. Absolutely. So Jeremy and and I thank you for your time. We've had such a great conversation. And as we're winding down right now, I love to ask my guests kind of an advice.

forward looking question. So based on our discussion today of talking a little bit more about the crew and and how vessels are operated and and the various risks that they go through, what would you like shippers around the world. What would you like them to know? Like what's your piece of advice or the one thing that you want them to get So I think I think, you know, quite naturally we all you know, ninety nine percent of us live on land and and we think that shipping and logistics

We associate it with, you know, with the the courier industry, with with the trucking operations, where everything is very specific and very visible, right? But seafaring is a critical part of our global supply chain. So, you know, over eighty-five percent of all products and goods that we are consuming and using in our homes and lifestyles c come by sea and come on the on the vest. And and please understand that you know that the ocean environment is hostile and it's it's unpredictable.

So to run things absolutely clockwork is is actually very difficult to do. We we do a lot to focus on trying to achieve that. But also think about the seafarers who are actually on the vessels and are and are making this happen. So you know, think about um you know being being a little bit more uh a little bit more h you know, caring, a little bit more aware of the human element here. Um and also please please please think about the safety of your products when you're moving them. Please don't

put our seafarers at danger. Please don't put our ships at danger. Please don't put our other customers' cargo at danger. You know, make sure we're properly packing, make sure we're properly declaring. And uh if you do that Uh over to us to get your cargo on time, safely, with no accidents and and to make sure that our crews and and officers

uh are really treated very, very professionally and they have a very good quality and respectful life and a very good career ahead for them. Brilliant. Thank you, Jeremy. I appreciate that. And I appreciate your the different perspective here that that you've really brought to the table. um talking about this industry where so often, you know, we became as an industry more mainstream during the times of COVID and, you know, with with major media reporting on it.

Um, but that was just the the point A to point B, right, kind of thing. And and you didn't really hear about the human side of it and um what it takes and and the various rifts. Um so as we're enjoying our coffee cup or the shirt we're wearing or whatever it might be, there was definitely an element of risk to getting that to you as the end consumer. So always remember that.

um and the the hardworking men and women that are out there that are trying to get it to that final destination in a very safe and efficient way. If we don't have seafarers, we don't have a supply chain. Love that. I'm gonna might I might steal that from you. If we don't have seafarers, we will not have a supply chain. Love it.

So thank you again, Jeremy. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. And uh I hope it wasn't too painful and I hope you'd agree to do this again, but it's been absolutely lovely. um to to hear from you and and get your perspective. So thank you again. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you, Kuna Nagel. And uh let's make this industry better and safer. Thank you. I love that.

So everyone, thank you again for tuning in to another episode of Kunanago's Shipping Insights. I'm your host, Sarah Vollmer, and be sure to check out our podcast series anywhere that you listen to your podcast. You can find us there. So thank you again and talk to you soon.