From California to Kyiv, Advocates Fight for Return of Ukraine’s Stolen Children

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While Russian President Vladimir Putin continues to strike Ukrainian cities, refuse a ceasefire to begin negotiations for peace, and sways President Trump with promises of business deals, Lesser known is Putin's campaign to deport and indoctrinate Ukrainian children. Since Russia's invasion in 2022, more than 19,000 children have been taken to Russia. placed in re-education or military camps, or adopted by Russian families. This hour, we learn about efforts to bring the children home. Join us.

Welcome to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. After a Monday phone call with Vladimir Putin, President Trump appears to have backed away from pressuring Russia for a ceasefire and from joining Europeans in new sanctions against Russia for drone attacks on Ukrainian cities. It's a blow to Kyiv and less known to the thousands of Ukrainian families desperate to find and reunite with their children.

Untold numbers, though officially the number stands at 19,000, have been forcibly removed or taken to Russia under the pretense of humanitarian evacuation since the 2022 invasion.

Joining me first is Congressman Jimmy Panetta, who represents California's Central Coast and has been an advocate for Ukrainian children. Congressman Panetta, welcome to Forum. Thank you, Mina. I appreciate this opportunity to talk about something that unfortunately not many people have heard about. Yeah, you're a sponsor of the Ukraine Human Rights Policy Act and a resolution condemning the forced deportations.

Ukrainian children by Russia so you've tried to draw attention to this what do your efforts call for Yeah, look, I think right now what people need to understand is beyond the horrendous, unjustified, unprovoked attack by Vladimir Putin

on Ukraine and the nation itself. He's actually committing genocide. And obviously what I mean by that is under the definition of genocide, basically that also includes the destruction of a group of people by destroying their identity. And he's doing that, exactly what you mentioned, these kidnappings. children either to Russia or to a neighboring Belarus. or to Russian-occupied Ukraine, the number of basically almost 20,000 confirmed reports of these unlawful deportations.

In order to basically, you know, try to brainwash them, change them, get the Ukrainian concept, the Ukrainian nation out of their mind is what is happening here. And so basically what we're trying to do in Congress. With these resolutions is basically highlighting this issue in addition to our continued and passed support for the Ukrainian people.

the defense of the Ukrainian nation we want to make sure that people understand what is going on beyond just the war but this type of genocide that Vladimir Putin is inflicting upon Ukrainian children. And this, the rights of Ukrainian children, they're a priority for you and also for your constituents? Look, I think when it comes to this type of destructive action to take away a nation,

basically ignore the lines of a country as Vladimir Putin is doing, especially a fledgling democracy like Ukraine. We have a responsibility as the leading democracy. to defend them, to ensure that basically we push back, we fight back, and we put Vladimir Putin in his place. especially what he's doing. So look, I believe based on the constituents that I spoke to, the ones who call into my office, ones who email into my office, you bet this is a concern for them.

So then at this point, how would you characterize the US's commitment to continued military and humanitarian aid to Ukraine? Yeah, look, I think obviously you have an administration that is, although they promised this would be solved on day one, I believe they're realizing how difficult, how complex.

It is, especially when you're dealing with a war criminal like Vladimir Putin, when you're dealing with someone who has yet to acknowledge that ukraine as a nation exists and basically using that um belief that ukraine doesn't exist as a reason for his unjustified unprovoked horrific and deadly invasion you know unfortunately as this administration the president is finding out this is very difficult because you know we started off

by, you know, trying to bring them together and that, you know, they can work it out. And what the difficulty is that you're saying that when you're dealing with somebody that has the foundation that Ukraine isn't a nation, that makes it very, very difficult.

for making them come together and then you know you have this administration that thinks that you know russia could be a uh you know a business bonanza an economic bonanza for the United States the fact is is that you know dealing with Ukraine would be much better and then obviously what this administration needs to realize

is that even if you abandoned Ukraine, you not only have the toughness and the strength of the Ukrainian people to defend their democracy, they got the support from Europe because Europe understands. that if you give in, if you appease Vladimir Putin, they know that they're next. And so to me, I believe that our credibility and our relationships with our allies are on the line when it comes to dealing with Ukraine and we cannot have peace for peace sake.

Because you cannot if you do that, that's called appeasement. And so I hope that this administration and not because it's difficult. Obviously, we want to cease fire. But he's got this president and this administration has to understand how difficult it is and that sometimes there's got to be some tough luck.

Vladimir Putin, not just Ukraine. And unfortunately, this administration continues to focus on the victim, not the aggressor. It's time to start focusing on Vladimir Putin. It's time to start focusing on the aggressor, just like President Biden did. that's what we have to do going forward in order for there to be a ceasefire.

My last question to you, Congressman, is, so I'm sure you have heard the reports of the Monday phone call with Trump backing off his demand for a 30-day ceasefire, his earlier threats to join Europe and additional sanctions against Russia, given where that is. And what you're trying to accomplish, especially with regard to Ukrainian children, what are the prospects that...

Ukrainian children will be brought home in large numbers, in your view. Yeah, obviously based on the fact that We're doing our job in Congress. And in a bipartisan manner, many of these resolutions that we put forward condemning the abduction and forced adoption of Ukrainian children are supported by myself, a Democrat, and also Republicans.

We understand that this is a bipartisan issue because it's such a tragic issue, not just for the children of Ukraine, but for the families and the people of Ukraine. So ideally, this president needs to take this into account. talking with Vladimir Putin and making sure he understands that it isn't just about stopping his invasion.

stopping the destruction that he's inflicting upon the nation of Ukraine, but that there has to be a return of this people. That is what I will be demanding. I'm sure the Ukrainian people and President Zelensky will be demanding, and that's what this administration needs to demand. But, you know, you cannot leave it to just Zelensky and Putin to come together on this. And that basically was a result of that phone call of just saying, hey, guys, you work it out yourself.

As I mentioned earlier in this interview, it's not that easy when you're dealing with someone like Putin who doesn't even believe that Ukraine exists. And so I think this administration needs to understand that we need to continue to be involved in this type of negotiation if that's what we really want. If not, we must continue to support Ukraine in their defense of their democracy.

Congressman Jimmy Panetta, representing California's 19th district, which runs from Santa Clara to San Luis Obispo counties. Thank you so much, Congressman. Thank you.

Joining me now is Mikola Kulebra, founder of Save Ukraine and former presidential commissioner for children's rights from 2014 to 2021. Mikola, thanks so much for being with us. Yeah, thank you so much for invitation. Can you help us just understand the scale of this with regard to the children? How many children do you think have been forcibly removed? I know the government points to some 19,000, but you believe the number is larger?

You know, first of all, we have to talk about 1.6 million of Ukrainian children's lives are under serious and imminent threat due to Russia's sealing territories.

in 2014 and since 2022 which accounted for 20% of Ukrainians children's population and in 2022 with the beginning of russia's full-scale invasion russia forces began forcibly abducting ukrainian children and transferring them to russia That same year the Ukrainian government started various efforts to identify these children documenting cases of abduction and attempting to track who was taken.

By March 2023, Ukrainian authorities officially recorded 19,500 abductions. Unfortunately, Current information about these children under Russian control could not be verified nor is there any available information on the whereabouts or Condition and you know that according to Maria Lvova below a senior Russian official since february 2022 russia has accepted approximately 4.8 million residents of ukraine and from the donbass republics and other territories

and she stated that more than 700 000 ukrainian children have been registered in russia but still now we have not any information how many of that children unaccompanied minors but all of that children have been deported it's deportation it's abduction because they've been taken from ukrainian territory That's why official number is almost 20,000, but a real number is much higher. How old are they, Mikola?

It's all ages, it's from birth to 18 years it's it's it's different majors even now you know what is the a huge problem for us because we are a largest organization who are Maybe for now we are returning 70% of all kids from Russia and occupied territories. And we cannot rescue little kids because they have no one. who could help them in enemy's territory. That's why we are rescuing more teenagers, especially boys.

who has 16, 17, 18 years old because all of them received draft notice for Russian army and they're really afraid to be taken. to be conscripted and to be killed in battlefields as the Russian soldiers for nothing. It is a war crime. So am I correct in that at this point, since the beginning of the conflict at least, It's just over 1,200 or so children that you've been able to or other entities have been able to bring home.

yeah yeah it's yeah it's a whole number of kids who've been taken to ukraine uh and uh it's orphans and non-orphans but our organization rescued For now 650 kids. And from this number 143 is orphans. We were rescued kids even from Russian foster families, Russian orphanages. or from Russian military academies even. So, so many still left out there. Mikola Kulebra stayed with us. More after the break. This is Forum. I'm Mina Kim.

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You're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. We're talking this hour about efforts to bring back Ukrainian children who've been taken to Russia since the start of the invasion. The International Criminal Court issued arrest warrants for Putin and Russian Commissioner for Children's Rights. Maria Alexievna Lavova-Balova, who my guest, Mikulo Kolebra, mentioned earlier, for the, quote, illegal transfers. They did this in 2023, and UN officials have also deemed it a human rights violation.

Listeners, what are your questions and reactions to what you're hearing? How would you like the US government to respond? Are you or someone in your family a child of war? Have you or has someone close to you experienced indoctrination or cultural erasure? You can email forum at kqed.org. You can find us on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, and threads at KQED Forum. You can call us at 866-733-6786.

866-733-6786. We're joined by Mikola Kulebra, founder of Save Ukraine and former presidential commissioner for children's rights. Also with us now is Lena Rozvodowska, co-founder of Voices of Children, which provides psychological support to Ukrainian children affected by war. Lena, thanks so much for being with us.

Thank you so much for your invitation. Oh, yes, glad to have you. Also with us is Azad Seyfarava, journalist, documentarian, and producer and co-founder of Voices of Children. Azad, glad to have you with us as well.

Thank you for having me. Thank you. So, Azad, I understand the capture of our orphanages in Russia and of orphans is actually a tactic that dates back well before the full-scale invasion.

I think it's coming from USSR mind. We met even before with the people from other countries from Latvia countries who told their stories what happened in their lives like back in USSR so there's no big change in Russian policy like coming from USSR you know I spoke, I visited orphanage, for example, in Kherson itself

I visited I spoke with the head of this orphanage and he told me how exactly Russian soldiers came and he even showed me footage how Russian soldiers came inside of the orphanage with the gun like can you imagine to the kids who is like just six years old like 10 years old and they came and they demanded the list of the kids inside of this house and they started to threaten to the head of that

place that he's hiding someone from them and next day they come back with apcs with buses with more gun people with gun and took these kids away and and the head of this place told me that kids even left behind their shoes like winter shoes hoping that they will come back to to this place soon and he opened the big sack and showed me these shoes and this reminded me you know

stage from the films from the hennessey side from the holdover side uh from the you know second war time like seeing the shoes of the kids in this uh in this sack it's it is awful like I completely agree with the other speakers saying that it is genocide. They're trying to steal our kids. They're trying to indoctrinate them and make from them soldiers to fight against.

Ukraine in the future. One of the things I heard, Azad, is that one of the reasons that Ukraine is also particularly vulnerable to this is that it tends to have a relatively high rate of institutionalized children or children in orphanages

yeah it's also it's actually something that's coming also from you know ussr time back that time like the authority was trying to make like parents think only about a job only about the state on like giving their children to orphanage but going to walk walk walk so we have a lot of kids now living in the orphanage unfortunately and we actually also fighting like in our NGO and other NGOs fighting against this system because a lot of kids they are not just orphans they are social orphans

that they have a parent but the parents lost their parental rights and the kids stuck in this uh institutions alone with the system you know without parents without foster families without someone who could be close to them so russians whenever they occupy some territory first they're taking kids exactly from these orphans and then it's much more difficult to get these orphans back from russia because

uh they make a lot of obstacles for the kids coming back they said there should be some custody come and taking these kids but how we can find some custody for the orphans you know this is a huge problem yeah and i also understand that the targeting is also on children who are vulnerable if they have special needs

absolutely this this also but you know when when we're talking about the children it's so like sometimes it's so easy to brainwash them you probably know that russian promise them whenever they took them to russia promise them that whenever when they get 18 years old they will give them flat and they will give them 1 million rubles and of course some kids who is from vulnerable families from the difficult families or who left behind alone

they think that oh it's good opportunity but i would say you that there's a lot of a lot of cases when it's getting 18 years old and running from there to ukraine then i will tell you all and i will tell you more about such stories we have all yes

when they run away themselves. Linda, sometimes families willingly let Russians take them to the camps under certain circumstances, or are they duped? So can you please repeat your question? Oh, sorry. I was actually directing it to Lena, but feel free, Azad, if you... I think what you were trying to say is that sometimes Russians not just go to orphanages, but will go to people's homes and talk to families. take them away under certain pretenses or under certain promises.

Yes, it's also a regular thing and what we observe and what we hear from international monitors and reports that Yes, a lot of children stolen from Ukraine, forcibly transported from Ukraine. They are now in Russian families illegally. Obviously, because it's illegal custody and they've been shown to Russian families even in some temporary places. places where they were staying and it's what we also observe now that this is very well prepared system.

You can imagine that you have an army, you go to invade another country and you already prepare in your own country a system that will accept children from abroad from from this occupied territories a system that will do a quick re-education, a system of teachers who will come to schools in occupied territories and will start the new education and the schools and occupied territory already on Russian programs and everything will be prepared and potential

custody families in in russia also will be already prepared so what we see now what the russians want to say that they are it's a humanitarian saving it's a saving of children from occupied territories you know they were saying it but what we see it's prepared system of stealing children if i may add here so yes indeed some families were giving their children because russians were coming and insisting to take children to camps they were calling this like holiday camps in crimea but but

First of all, they were threatening the families that if the children stay behind and something happens, they will lose their parental rights. also they were told that it is danger for them and especially in herson region they were telling the parents it is dangerous for the kids staying there in summertime so let's we take them to summer camp but i spoke with these kids who came back from who run away from that camps they said that

after two weeks being there they were told that they are not going back to their families they were told that if your family won't you they can come and take you but it's difficult to get to Crimea from Ukraine it's a huge long way and you should spend a lot of money to get there

so indeed this was also happening in during the war but it was a huge lie to parents to get there to just steal their kid So, Nicola, can you tell me about 16-year-old Vlad, who I understand was sent to one of these camps, and what he told you he experienced?

yeah we just we just came back from united states with a lot rudenko He was only 16 years old and he was forcibly taken to Crimea from Kherson region. under occupation. The occupying authorities needed to show that local children were voluntarily enrolling in schools and institutions.

Now under Russian control, his mother Tatyana resisted for as long as she could. But in August 2022, a so-called official accompanied by two armed soldiers in balaclavas came to her home under threat she had no choice but to accept their strong recommendation to send her children to Russian school in October during a missile strike on the Darivka bridge over the... in Eulets River. Vlad's grandmother was killed, one of ten civilians who died that day.

that day. While Tatyana was burying her mother, Russian authorities seized the opportunity and without her consent moved Vlad to Crimea under the returns of a holiday. He was first placed in a sanatorium, it's a camp, then transferred to military academy. in premiere, where he was forced to undergo military style education. He was marching, he had to sing a Russian anthem every day. They had different military action there. And Vlad resisted as best he could.

At one point he removed a Russian flag from a flagpole in protest for that. He was locked in a solitary confinement, without own, without contact, completely isolated. What can I tell you that Vlad told me that after being rescued he told me that he tried to commit suicide in that circumstances and here his rescue was so... It's so hard. We tried to do it several times, but last time the mother arrived to take care of it.

her son back they didn't simply let him go first they forced her to undergo a lie detector test can you imagine this

a mother, an experience she described as the most terrifying of her life. They put a balaclava over her head to cover her eyes and draw her towards... other city there she was taken to a building led up to a second floor and interrogated for six hours while hooked up to the polygraph After the interrogation his mother was locked in a basement room just two by two meters with a buried window, a bench and a sleeping bag.

The next morning the questioning continued and during a conversation with the FSB officer she realized that someone that leaked the details. of the 7th Ukrainian rescue mission. Even after that, the Russians still didn't let her go. It's a really horrible story, but we helped plot.

to escape and bring him home and now Vlad lives in our rehabilitation center and we provide the rehabilitation I know for obvious reasons you can't go into too much detail about how you rescue the children, but I understand it involves a very complicated network.

even some safe houses and very complicated negotiations as well, and potentially putting people in danger. Is that a correct characterization, Mikola? Yeah, what we did, we built like underground railroad, which helped us to bring it home. I can tell you a lot because it's many confidential things. But it's always hard. It's a huge danger for that people who are helping us.

especially Russia block any rescue because every child who been rescued it is a witness of war crime We're talking about Russia's first removal and indoctrination of Ukrainian children, and you, our listeners, are sharing. Your questions, reactions, and whether you or someone in your family is a child of war. Susan writes, My father was born in Ukraine in 1914. Then as now, Russia had fought with and absorbed Ukraine to the point that my father, older brothers, and parents

thought they were from Russia. They left in a harrowing escape in 1921. My grandmother always said Russia will never change. She was so correct. Brian writes, my grandfather and his brother were taken to re-education camps without warning during the Vietnam War and my family had no idea what happened to them for months. The trauma of the separation of families and children is heartbreaking, and oftentimes there is no happy ending.

Another listener on Blue Sky writes, heartbreaking, so many children were abducted by Russia and Trump does nothing, nothing short of human trafficking.

So, Mikula, you traveled with Vlad, as you said, to the U.S., and you've just returned from a trip to Washington, D.C., where you were trying to impress upon U.S. officials this emergency of the Ukrainian children and what it presents. What was the response you got? What were you trying to convey to leaders in Washington last week? And do you think that they were hearing you? Yeah, I just been in Washington. We held a series of meetings on Capitol Hill to advocate for their return.

and rehabilitation of Ukrainian children who were stolen by Russia. It can be difficult to make the international community fully understand this scale and that of this crime, not because they indifferent, but because the reality is almost unthinkable. That's why this meeting in DC are so important. What gives me hope is that this issue politics in that time when few causes unite people across party lines rescuing children and restoring their future is one of the rare

truly bipartisan concerns. And I believe that once people see the truth, not just the numbers but the facts and stories they will act. And we are actively working to bring more corporate and international partners into this mission. These children need more than sympathy. they need justice, they need care and long-term support.

We're talking with Mikola Kulebra, founder of Save Ukraine, former presidential commissioner for children's rights from 2014 to 2021. I know you need to leave us now, Mikola. Thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. So with us is Lena Rozvodowska, co-founder of Voices of Children, which provides psychological support to Ukrainian children affected by war, and Azad.

Sepharov, journalist and documentary and producer and co-founder of Voices of Children. And you, our listeners, are also sharing your questions and reactions to what you're hearing. What do you want to know about what's happening to Ukraine? Children, how would you like to see the US government respond?

Are you or is someone in your family a child of war? Or have you or has someone close to you experienced indoctrination or attempts at cultural erasure? You can email forum at kqed.org. You can find us on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, or threads at kqedforum. And you can give us a call at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.

And a note that this episode is based on forum producer Susie Britton's reporting, which was supported by the International Women's Media Foundation's Women on the Ground, reporting from Ukraine's Unseen Frontlines initiative. This in partnership with the Howard G. Buffett Foundation.

The listener writes, when you are able to get children back, how do you help them recover and get back on their feet if those are even the right words to describe the situation? We'll get into that right after the break. This is Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Support for Forum comes from San Francisco Opera. Amidst a terrible storm, Idomeneo promises the god Neptune that he will sacrifice the first person he sees if he and his crew survive the tempestuous water.

But as he arrives safely to shore, his relief transforms into horror when the first person he lays eyes upon is his own son. This summer, venture into the storm with Mozart's sublime opera Idomeneo, June 14-25. Learn more at sfopera.com. Support for Forum comes from Broadway SF, presenting Parade, the musical revival based on a true story.

From three-time Tony-winning composer Jason Robert Brown comes the story of Leo and Lucille Frank, a newlywed Jewish couple struggling to make a life in Georgia. When Leo is accused of an unspeakable crime, it propels them into an unimaginable test of faith, humanity, justice, and devotion. The riveting and gloriously hopeful parade plays the Orpheum Theater for three weeks only, May 20th through June 8th. Tickets on sale now at BroadwaySF.com.

You're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. We're learning this hour about the indoctrination campaign Russia is deploying against Ukrainian children. The unlawful removal of at least 20,000 Ukrainian children to Russia, though many believe that the number is higher, the International Criminal Court calls it a war crime. With us is Lena Rozvodowska, co-founder of Voices of Children, and Azad Safarov, journalist and documentarian.

and also co-founder of Voices of Children. And Lena, I do want to go to that question for a moment. So help us understand what it's like for the children who have returned, the kinds of impacts that you see. Yes, thank you for this question because for all of us It's a celebration when organizations or government try to help rescue at least one child.

and we think that okay the the thing is done you know child returned back to ukraine but for that child or those couple of children The next challenges just starting, first of all, all of them, they have to went through some of the procedures to build the case.

the procedures of interviewing with special services with the police with the prosecutor office and our psychologists supervising children during this we can call it interrogation process but we call it interviewing yeah you cannot interrogate child you have to interview him but anyway children coming back to Ukraine they go through some

these questions about their experience. So very often children when they come back to return to Ukraine for some of the periods they cannot left behind all of this. trauma, all of this experience and memories and start to live from a new page. It's not. They constantly will be present, still present with this awful experience of being somewhere far from families.

or maybe they can also testimony about physical violence about any psychological violence and all of these things so we support children during this all of this period And usually what we see, we see a lot of complex trauma.

So it means that those children who returned from Russia to Ukraine before deportation, before possible transportation to Russia, they could witness horrible scenes of bombing cities, they could spend weeks or months underground somewhere hiding from shellings, they could lost somebody. So we understand that this is children who have a complex trauma of being in a work zone, being taken somewhere with somebody and being somewhere in Russia or occupation in full isolation.

We see a loss of identity and internal conflict. They've been told constantly that Ukraine abandoned them and they don't need them anymore. We see... the social mistrust and some kind of paranoia. It's very tough to build a contact and to build a trust with these children. For example, our psychologist saying that Even to have some trust between this child and psychologist, they would need a monk session.

to build this trust because they learned that you cannot trust to nobody and they um like coming back very often like in this situation frozen yes and this frozenness also ptsd post-traumatic stress also reintegrational challenges the children age 15 16 17

Once they returned to Ukraine, they start immediately saying, okay, what will be my future, where I'm going to study, where I'm going to live, because usually they don't have nothing yet, because they're either from occupied territories or they're...

home is destroyed so they they have a lot of this basic needs and this stress about their future and once one girl that we supported told me that I dream that one day I will come to school and nobody will ask me about my experience of being Deportation in Russia. So, psychological support is very important for children and it will take time.

There are, as you just noted, opportunities too many, unfortunately, for re-traumatization with questions like that. And am I to understand that most of the children you work with are teens? in part because of what Mikola was saying earlier, is that they are the ones who are able to communicate or understand. better what is happening to them and are able to get out much less as known or understood about much younger children who've been taken. Is that right?

Yes, most of the children, yes. And also there were the children who already turned 18 and managed to run, to escape from Russia by their... only by themselves. So we also have counseling and a lot of children who are already 18, 19 years old or maybe just turned 18 years old.

I said, can you talk about the status of efforts to hold Russia accountable for these crimes? Excuse me, can you repeat the question? The status of efforts to hold Russia accountable. You know, now, with all my respect to Americans, now with the leader of America, with the White House administration, it's really difficult for us to see that

Russia will soon get a responsibility for what they are doing. In normal society, in normal world, in normal vision, If you are stealing kids, like Germans did in the Second War, or I don't know, like other dictatorships did, you get responsibility, you get punishment for this, you get something.

But these days, like when Ukrainians here reading some message, some strange message from the White House administration, from Trump administration, for us, it's really devastating to hear something like that. Like imagine... how feel the children or how feel the relatives who look for America, hoping that America will help to bring Russia for responsibility, to bring our kids back and to bring Putin.

to uh to the court for everything what he has done and then we are reading this message strange message saying that no it's not putin's responsibility saying that no we can't put in the resolution putin's name or uh like This is really strange for us like it is not what we hope to see like in normal world to hear from the administration with all our respect to

simple americans like we know that americans support in ukraine and we're very thankful for everything americans doing still doing for us and in our NGO you will not believe We have an American, her name is Sarah, she is 24 and she is with us for 2 years and she supports Ukraine, she loves Ukraine. thankful for the Congressman Panetta for everything he says about bringing responsibility to Russia and we see that there is a support in Congress and Senate but for us still

Really devastating to hear that Trump's backing Putin's action. And that's why, of course, we will fight till the end. You know Ukrainians very well. We will fight till the end. to bring Russia responsibility. But it's really difficult to do when the current administration on the side of Putin

The sister Vivian on Discord writes, a few months ago there was some suggestion that Doge had deleted a database tracking the kidnapped Ukrainian children, but the State Department denied it. Has there been any confirmation of whether those records still exist? And just for some context for listeners, yes, there was a database that was started under the Biden administration to try to track the kidnapped Ukrainian children. It funded an effort by the Yale Humanitarian Lab.

to do this. I did hear the same thing about some concern that the database at some point was lost. Do you know if it has been found?

I haven't heard whether it was found, but I know that our NGOs like after a long you know experience communication with different administration they are trying collect theirs like themselves all the Russian atrocities so I hope I still hope that we still have this collection of the Russian atrocities here in Ukraine at least but yes we heard about this news coming from America and it was also

very terrifying for us. Because imagine all these families who suffered, who lost their loved ones, whose children was abducted, whose children was killed. And imagine hearing something like this coming from America. And we heard not only this, we heard also that the financial support for the investigators are being cut down also.

Like, this is very strange signals to Russia and to the world and also to the other dictators who will believe that, okay, if Russia did this and everything okay, so we are going to do the same. So it's not the best policy or politics, I would say. Our producer, Susie Britton, actually was able to speak with Yale and share us with me the database that Vivian referenced.

has since been located and the information turned over to European and Ukrainian authorities is the plan. But with regard to financial support, I can understand your concern. Lena, you were about to say something. I'm sorry. Go right ahead.

Yeah, I just wanted to add here why it's so important this tracking the children and all of this database and all of this data about stolen children. Because we know with the time time is passing and it's already three years of full-scale invasion and some of the children that been stolen in age

two years old three years old one years old and we know these cases it was they it was orphanage for the young the smallest children they were stolen to russia so in this age with time children cannot simply remember where they come from and if all of this data is not saved if we don't have this tracking if we don't track all of this movements of children. So simply with the time we can lost most of this children, most of this data and children themselves, they will adapt.

to them to live in Russia. with the so heavily brainwashed politics and propaganda they can simply even forget where they from or Simply they can just accept a new identity that they've been saved from the Ukrainian army. and start to live in Russia with a new imagination of where they come from. So this time thing is very important talking about children.

Let me remind listeners you're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Lena, what have you found with the children that you've worked with that have been the most effective strategies to help them? What did we found? We have a lot of programs that we work with the children. The main thing is it's needed time. working thing with this that every case is individual, so the best works the individual sessions and therapy.

And sometimes children, when they come back to Ukraine, they really need some adult whom they can trust. So it's very important that they would have this adult. And if they don't have any of relatives... So our psychologists or our case managers can be those adults that at least will give them some stability and feeling of seeing and hear so um individual counseling for the last year we worked with 130 children returned to

to Ukraine. So the best because for children being in occupation and being in deportation this is very unique experience and sometimes they're not very good in adapting in a group, in some group activities or group sessions. So yeah, so this individual counseling now it works the best. This listener writes, I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area. How can I help? Azan?

Of course, first of all you can raise awareness advocate for accountability and sanctions against against Russians, support organizations that work on child rehabilitation and fund programs focused on trauma recovery and reintegration. Among our donators, there's a lot of Americans and we are very thankful for them because for us it's important to continue to provide psychological help to those children who came back from Russia.

and it's really difficult for them to like come mentally back you know sometimes it took take 10 sessions and on the 11th they stop crying even. So it's really important to continue this work. It will unfortunately take much longer and for us it's important not stop doing this job.

And of course, return all our kids back, all our children back to home. Azat, you've pointed out that it's not always easy to convince families to actually take advantage of support resources. Does that have historical roots or why is that?

yeah actually it's true i'm coming for example from azerbaijan i was born there and in in a post-soviet countries uh like azerbaijan ukraine there's still kinder stereotype that if i take my child child to a psychologist people will say that he is psycho And, you know, we are working with these stereotypes also. Like we're explaining every day with our psychoeducation that it is important to bring your children to psychologists if you see some change in his behavior.

And you know, it is changing, slightly changing, but of course it's not like the level of Americans or not level like Europe, where it's absolutely normal to go to psychologists every week, every second week. So the war changed a lot in this mindset, but still there's a huge number of people and parents.

whom we need to convince that it is absolutely normal to come to psychology and you will be surprised but mostly now it's also teenagers themselves calling to us without even speaking to their parents like calling directly to us and saying that they need this help sometimes they ask not to tell their parents but we have to like explain if they are underage we have to tell their parents that they are calling us so what i want to say that

that teenagers that young population now understood this much much more this needs of psychological help sometimes more than the adult

We're at the end of the hour, but Azad is a journalist, a documentarian. I'm wondering what you have found to be the most effective way to raise awareness of the issue of Ukraine's stolen children.

Of course, I would say that like all the media work, it helps a lot and I will really want to thank you for bringing attention to this topic. And also like a documentary director, I would say that our films two films which we made in east part of ukraine actually the second film we made with olena there uh it's also about the kids children living next to the front line and this this

thing but these films brought a lot of attention because a house made of splinters our second film was nominated to oscar and it was good opportunity to us to speak all around the world about the children suffering from the russian war against ukraine So really the film, the documentary, the media, it's everything which we need also like to bring attention to this topic.

Azad Safarov, co-founder of Voices of Children, Lena Rozvidowska, co-founder as well of Voices of Children, which provides psychological support to Ukrainian children affected by war. Thank you both so much. Also, my thanks to Mikula Kulebra, earlier founder of Save Ukraine, former presidential commissioner for children's rights, and also to Congressman Jimmy Panetta of California's 19th.

District of the Central Coast. And thank you, listeners, as always, for your questions and comments. Susie Britton produced this segment. You've been listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Funds for the production of Forum are provided by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, the Generosity Foundation and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Greetings, Boomtown.

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