Shamanism, Post-Colonialism, and the Korean Left

[Music] Jack Greenberg works as an independent  consultant researcher and freelance writer his current focus is on Heritage and conservation  issues historical memory debates truth seeking and Reconciliation and civilian massacres of  the Korean War Jack it's good to see you thank you it's good to see you thank you very much  for coming uh one of the last times that we saw each other Jack was at a uh Shaman event um  that was down in Sonam City so let's start with

that if we can because whether past or present  religion always plays a role in human society you've done a lot of work on Shamanism can you  help us understand it what have you seen what is Shamanism as a as a lived reality here in  South Korea where to start it's a big question so you know I think we should regard Shaman as  ritual specialist that's a good way to think of them you know in the Press right now there's  a lot of negative portrayals of shaminism that

it you know is responsible for corruption in  government that it is all about Superstition that it's an obstacle to modernization but you  know Shamanism has been this persistent presence in Korean Society for thousands of years and  you know from the beginning shamans mudang were chman you know the base people so they were  always Outsiders from the rest of society um but they've always played a very important role in  helping people find cures in praying for good

luck in consoling people who have lost loved ones  and also you know consoling The Souls of those who have passed on um so I think what we see is you  know Shamanism continues to play a significant role in the spiritual lives and beliefs of many  Korean people it's not necessarily in the public sphere but definitely goods are still performed  in private um but as well we see kind of public performances like the one we watch together down  in snam what is a good a good is basically there's

different types of good in different regions of  the country and for different purposes but it's basically you think of it there's there's three  real actors in a good there's the shaman there are the spirits and the one that a lot of people  forget is the sponsor M so the good is where the shaman is is communicating with the spirits uh on  behalf of the sponsor uh for whatever reason you can hold it for you know to improve your economic  Fortune if a loved one is sick and is suffering

but this is really where there's dialogue between  these three entities taking place so good are performed in private but they're also performed  publicly for communities uh it's where people come together everybody is treated with hospitality  it's an opportunity for Fraternity um you know kinsmanship and uh they're fascinating to  watch you don't always understand exactly what's happening the more times you attend them  the better picture you get what happens there's

dancing singing chanting there's engagement with  the audience there will be people giving up to offer things there's you know you can think of  it as gift giving you know money there there's a money exchange component but there's also food is  offered and this is offering a gift to the spirits in exchange for their their good luck for them  to guard you to help you in your life um you'll see things like pigs giant oxen breast being  uh speared by a trident and and held up um you

know and in that circumstance it if it wobbles  you know the spirits might not be immediately accepting the offering um if it's stable that's  normally an indication that they've accepted it so if it's tilting then you know the sponsor will  have to apologize and say you know we're trying the best we can this is what we have to offer they  might stick some bills onto the slabs and and if it just you know stands up right for a few seconds  then that's an indication that they've accepted it

but in the ultimate goal is you want the spirits  to accept the offering because otherwise uh it's not something's not working and there's already  a huge amount of money invested in holding this huge production wow um but it's it's fascinating  to watch and there's one that's held regularly in s over in at the and that's uh Professor Yang  um that will be probably held next in April miday this year so uh for people listening if you're  in Soul at that time it's definitely something

you want to check out it's a sacred event isn't it  it feels that you're leaving the secular and enter entering the sacred I would say so I think um  you you some of the ones I have attended there's people who are very invested into it and you can  tell they sincerely believe in the rituals that are are taking place and it holds significance in  their personal lives it's not just a performance for them I think sometimes foreigners attend them  and see it as a spectacle and if you remember in

the one in songnam we saw the Shaman climb up on  the twin blades um you know in those circumstances there's some performance and and you're trying to  show the audience that um there's the spirits are allowing them to perform these paranormal acts  um but at the at the same time um people really take something away I think yeah and we saw all  sorts of people at that performance at that good yes there were men women old young children yeah  that that one was interesting because it kind of

coincided with a a local Festival mhm um I think  Shamanism in Korean Society is somewhat unique because women play a very significant role uh you  know many Shaman are women many sponsors are women often times there are female spirits and you  know we talk a lot about Han but I think Han is definitely an element because for each of  the the actors involved there's some element of Han that they feel AG grieved in some way um  they're holding a grudge there's pain and then

these rituals are are performed to help alleviate  that and alleviate the suffering that they feel and trying trying to get them to a place where  they're more comfortable you mentioned at the beginning that uh Shamanism is is about consoling  is about helping is about alleviating it plays a very important psychological and spiritual  role in the lives of Korean people so why is it so uh why is it looked upon so negatively by  the media and press and we the talk of shamanism

means Superstition and lack of modernity I think  it unfortunately there are people who claim to be shamans or acting as shamans who are you know  not good people and are engaged in fraud or you know carrying out scams and trying to exercise  political influence uh and and their purposes are nefarious so unfortunately when these things  happen it's a juicy story it's tantalizing we want to look at it and then we tend to paint this  whole history in a negative light and in the media

there's entertainment value obviously you know  there's the drama the fiery priest that that was a little old but I think the first episode starts  with a male Shaman holding a good and you know he's collecting money from all the the villagers  but he's trying to dup them and then the priest shows up and he's there to save the day and scare  off the con man Shaman so we see that and there's a been you know uh I'm trying to think the glory  yeah uh there's entertainment value the glory cast

Shamanism in a bad way but I think we forget it  also didn't cast Christianity and and Buddhism in the best lights either but you know because there  are spirits and there is Paranormal MH instances involved in Shamanism we we want to look at that  and then it's hard to look away once once you're attuned to that did you watch Pomo the exh humor  yeah I did watch that in the theater interesting movie um there was another one I think saaha  that saw that I found that one a little bit more

interesting than Pomo um yeah so I think there's a  trend right uh even the the the dark nuns the ones that is in the theater right now okay um with uh s  from the glory yes there's you know portrayals of shamanism in that film as well ju deposed against  Christianity and such so I think there when the audience wants something then there are obviously  filmmakers who who capitalize that on that and see a trend that they want to follow there there's  material there ultimately it's trendy and it's

modern and it features in movies and dramas but  it's as you said it's also very traditional isn't it it's very old in Korea older than Christianity  older than Buddhism dosm as well I would probably posit and so that's rather interesting isn't it  that that is actually perhaps more Korean than any others and yet it's looked upon negatively  by some yeah and I think as you said there are other religions that are more modern in Korea  than Shamanism but they have also um drawn on

shamanistic elements uh for their own benefit you  know Buddhism in Korea is unique because you have icons that are really shamanistic icons but have  joined the Buddhist Pantheon um you know there's Sunshine the mountain spirit and I know you've  done an episode with David Mason before and he he's spent decades researching San Shan and uh I  don't I can't claim to be as much of an expert as him but you know that's one of the the shrines I  always go straight to When I visit temples so at

this point that's maybe 300 temples and you know  the artwork of San Shan is always fascinating because you have different motifs and you know the  The Dragon King and in other you know characters and icons the these have all been adopted and  Incorporated from from Shamanism mhm sunshin being the mountain God and you're right that Shamanism  and Buddhism they seem to blend together sometimes it's hard to draw them apart um this question is  a little bit of a generalization so forgive me

but do you find despite the modernity Korean  people still to be quite superstitious I mean everyone's superstitious in every country but  I have students changing their names they go to fortune tellers they go to saju and are we in the  same ballpark when we talk about these things or is Shamanism completely removed no I I think some  Koreans are definitely I think there's some fear of the unknown when it comes to Shamanism I think  there are some young people who are frightened

of it in a way because they see it as this dark  arts sort of thing and they haven't necessarily had exposure to it growing up in a village as  people did decades ago um you know I have some different Shaman paraphernalia in my apartment and  uh my wife doesn't like that being out in the open it has to kind of be kept in my drawers or I'm  not to pull it out when she's at home is this a trident or a pig's head I have a a fan with all of  the different deities on it and uh so yes she she

does not like or or want to come to the good with  me I think she's gradually you know maybe she'll come to the next one uh but I think for yeah for  young people there there's fear of the unknown M do you have a sense of the size of shamanism  in Korea by that I mean the people say performing in it engaging in it because or does it get  an oversized representation in the media I I can't speak to exact figures but I think what's  interesting is that even if you are a Christian

or a Buddhist and you claim that that that is your  religion or or that you're you know no no religion MH you may still be you may find yourself in  circumstances where you consult a fortune teller or attend the good or seek out the the services  of a shaman so I think in that sense it's hard to say are you a practitioner of shamanism  or are are you somebody who is open to using it uh when it is needed or when circumstances  demand that you be open to it it might have

been David Mason that said uh Korean people are  Confusion by day dowst by night and they go to shamans when they have a problem yeah that it's  a sort of a way to solve problems or to get peace of mind at least to seem to be taking action  um Shamanism and politics we're going through impeachment Trials of a sitting president and  this impeachment and the previous impeachment uh stories of shamanism revolved heavily around  both of these uh conservative Korean presidents

it's very you know it's a recent phenomenon  because it used to be that the state and and those in positions of power didn't want to have  anything to do with shamans MH you know during the authoritarian period there was shamans were  basically oppressed right um at gongan for example down down near gju in ton uh there was all of  these Shaman practitioners who basically had to disguise themselves as Buddhist nuns in order to  carry out their activities but at the same time

I think the state was somewhat recept to them  you know in the 1988 Olympic ceremony opening ceremony I think we saw Shamanism as performers  but when the state chose to leverage Shamanism it always was done very carefully that this had  to be something that was compatible with Advanced society and that the International Community  would see as a respectable representation of traditional folk culture and not as something  that is irrational superstitious backwards and

a hindrance to modernity mhm and then I guess we  could also talk about shamanistic influences in the Pro democracy movement so you know back in  the 80s Shamanism was viewed positively by these students and laborers and different people who  were fighting um for a new Society where people were treated like human beings and you know  this started in like 1965 where Kim chiha um invoked a spirit of national Consciousness um and  then in 1972 you had shamanistic performances to

invoke the spirit of the April Revolution that  brought down isman and then in the 80s that kind of intensified because when EOL was killed  by the tear gas canister at yon and when p uh chol was killed at namyong by the  anti-communist police there were shamanistic performances on campus to appease their Spirits  wow I didn't know there there was a a professor I think her name was e a name uh mudu M  she she passed away a few years ago but she

performed these dances and she wore you know the  traditional clothes and they had blood stains on them and she was trying to console the spirits  of these students who had passed and you know dance is one thing but the shamanistic dances  are another because they draw the audience um you know the the the Democracy movement was all  about trying to bring people together to Foster fraternity Foster greater equality in society in  these performances helped to do that so and then

this continued even when they were having the  1987 election this same Professor performed at the rally of uh P kiwan who was kind of like the  people's candidate and who was positioned himself as somebody to try to speak to the greediness  of the three Kims and their lust for power and try to encourage them ultimately to you know  rally behind one of them for the greater good but you know she performed at his rallies in hwa  Hong and soul so Shamanism was at least involved

in the the mun sort of democracy movement um  because it brought people together does that mean we need Shamanism today then because the Mong  was pivotal in South Korea and and you said that at the beginning Shamanism was uh involved with  the the base people I believe is the term that you used you know the oppressed those without  power and it was a way to bring them together so that maybe they could challenge power and  if that happened during the 1970s and ' 80s for

democratization an important role in Korean  history isn't it yes absolutely and I think it's an often overlooked role um the mung movement is  is fascinating it's something I'm trying to learn more about there's not a ton in English so it  it's it's good it's forcing me to go and consult a

lot of Korean books and uh I'm looking forward on  Saturday this week to going and interviewing Shin hak chol who is a a very prolific artist from  the mung movement and he has a a retrospective right now in guangju at guangju shiran there's  also a small exhibit in Soul to Mark the 80th anniversary of Liberation at uh pan madang in in  hewad and that's about the relationship that uh sh inan had um so I think there's so many  things we can learn and I think Ming art was

not homogeneous in any way there was different  factions and different associations of artists and competition between what they saw this  mung art to be can you say something about what mung is for those that might not be aware  of it or try to unpack it a little bit Yeah I think where to start with it I think Mong art  I I guess my understanding it's all about like the flow of the people from here to there  and it in many ways mun art brought down the

veneer of the traditional Korean art scene  it brought art out of exhibition galleries into the streets into the public squares it opened  a dialogue between artists and people you know students religious groups laborers and some of  these people actually became artists themselves um it wasn't just about o painting on canvas you  had different mediums you had had banners you had you know wood block prints and rubber prints and  things that made this art um almost commoditized

it helped spread it so it was in pamphlets it was  in magazines it it wasn't just something you go and look at on a wall and say oh that's nice it  has some meaning um it you know it's often said that mung art is political art that it's political  propaganda but it's very different from you know socialist realist painting in communist countries  where the state is dictating what is depicted and what the symbols are here it speaks to so many  different pressing issues in society you know

the problems inherent in capitalism with the US  military industrial complex with authoritarianism so yes it was political and that it shed light  on the symbols that the the state wanted to oppress and suppress You could argue you know  many conventional artists of that time turned their noses up at Mel art and said this is it  has low artistic value but the state also had a fixation on like abstract art and the lack  of political symbols in many of those pieces

is political in itself mhm so yeah I think there's  so much still that we're St we're trying to unpack about Ming art and how do we understand it and  how is it relevant today it's not homogeneous as you said but to you what does it look like you  mentioned the artist down in guangju that has the exhibition PK H uh shinh Shak what does the art  look like yeah there there's so many different varieties I think it's hard to say it looks one  way you certainly have things like Mir girls for

example bright colors uh you you see these figures  from society in that time the the people who were not in the upper tiers but who were fighting for  change you see them depicted in these um I think there's some that have bright colors some don't  have bright colors they're a lot of the banners you know those have not survived and that makes  it our quest to understand it CH understand it challenging in some ways um there's lots of people  in them normally I normally see flows flows of

people circular arms the sort of arang mov you  might have seen one I posted recently by o Yun and that was like kind of a Twist on the traditional  Farm dance of people with the banners and then you had the peasants and the people doing Mask dance  but you also had you know officials and students all coming together and kind of doing like a snake  dance those motifs are certainly representative of it in some way o Yun was an artist if I remember  associated with the dissident poet Pak no I

believe he designed he did some of the covers  for his poetry anthology is you said you get in trouble sometime not get in trouble but that you  have some shamanistic things around the house that you're asked to keep in drawers to be looking and  researching into the mung does that cause you any trouble because Korea's you know still kind of  cold war driven a little bit and you understand my question yes I understand your question not  yet it hasn't gotten me in trouble yet mhm um

I hope it doesn't by the way it should hope so  sometimes if you get in trouble you're saying stuff that needs to be said that's the other  thing um I went to a very interesting exhibit actually this afternoon mhm and tell me this was  an artist I believe his name was Kim yunan and he he lives in SSU he's originally from deu and we  we had a a chat over coffee in the gallery and um he basically took the voting stamp you know that  what I'm talking about it kind of looks like the

peace sign yeah he basically used this stamp and  created these huge works of art one of President Yun and his wife's their heads kind of fused  together one of Yun and his you know his henchmen you could say in Japanese war helmets um you know  different art that has a very strong message at this time so yeah that I wouldn't say that that  art is not controversial but it it it's playing an important role in in the debates that need to  be had in society at this time um he a lot of his

pieces used the red stamp but he also had one and  that stood out because the stamp was blue and this was of the white stick at the protests so that  whole piece there there's no you know inclines in it it's simply the stamp um so it's a collage  made just by stamp stamp stamp stamp stamp all over the canvas but there are these breathtaking  images and you can you stand and you look at it and you you try to identify the meaning it of it  and what is the message that it's trying to convey

um so I I encourage unfortunately the exhibition  ends tomorrow but I think he's planning to take it on tour uh to different cities and uh Kim yunha  Kim yunan I think is his name okay I hope I I remembered it correctly in satire is important and  when we talk about sort of Mong art it's sort of or mung in general it's about um Consciousness  Awakening becoming a poit political subject and uh being active it's about breaking out of the  identity that the state in capital try to impose

upon the people yeah and allowing people to find  a voice and act as political animals in a way yeah uh but for a productive purpose and if there was a  satirical painting of a president in Canada where you're from or the United Kingdom where I'm from  in France in the United States we wouldn't think twice and we see them on a regular occasion um  if it was in China or North Korea there would be very difficult to find any existence of those here  in South Korea it's well I I unfortunately don't

remember the young man's name but there was a  cartoon he drew at the beginning of yun's term of office where Yun was like Thomas the Tank Engine  remember you probably remember that and I'm sure some of the people listening remember it as well  but that cartoon created all sorts of controversy because rather than just laugh it off and and view  it as it was a satire it was seen as defamatory and then you know you have to be very careful what  you you say here because of the defamation laws

but yes I think that there are definitely Korean  satire artists who are doing excellent work and meaningful work um and I think we should see more  of their work and ideally it would be seen both in Korea and outside of Korea and just like I'm  sure they look to foreign caricature artists for inspiration um I one of the reasons I like your  work is that you explore these artists and these uh conversations that are taking place because the  media doesn't MH uh we're often fed stories about

celebrities and Scandals and K-pop idols and not  to say that these aren't important but the work that you do is uh very difficult to find otherwise  especially in English there there are definitely good Publications who put a lot of attention to  it in Korea Han is one example uh you know there's other sites like om my news where there's a lot  of Citizen journalism but yeah I'm definitely my interest goes off in that direction and there are  all sorts of unresolved historical issues that um

that I've have worked on already that I continue  to work on and I find it's kind of like a domino once you start with one you get put on the path to  another and they're all interconnected in some way or another because if there hasn't been a proper  Reckoning with history these issues Bubble Up and they ultimately affect all the events that come  after this is not a question that I wrote down to ask you but you've mentioned Kima we've talked  about Pak hang recently won the Nobel Prize for

literature for her work which does look at um the  voice of those that were oppressed in a lot of her work do you see her in a similar tradition or  did you have any thoughts on that voice spreading out into the wider World well I think she's  definitely not the first writer who tackles these difficult topics and difficult history  um she's definitely I would say more literary m and has she does a lot of experimentation with  voice and who narrates the stories um in her a

lot of her work is Meaningful and I think she  deserves all of the recognition that she has received um Jo Le the the writer of tiek sanme MH  um I'm I'm reading a book by him right now and he says Korean writers especially of his generation  are very luy because they have no shortage of painful history to draw inspiration from and uh  I greatly admire his work and uh you know Tek sck uh tell me about it got into trouble for its  supposed violation of the National Security Law

just like uh shinh CH who we talked about earlier  his painting uh was accused of violating the National Security Law the National Security Law  being related to North Korea often the cases have

a North Korean element to it it accuses people of  of praising the north if if they take some sort of position that is not in line with anti-communism  [Music] hang sakyong in a similar tradition who uh put in prison for many years for visiting North  Korea um dangerous question but is there a North Korean uh element I don't mean a fifth column but  I mean sympathy or any manifestation in that mung or surrounding AR artists does it appear or  is it a media bogey man I think those who try

to denigrate it will often say this is pro North  Korea but when you ultimately look at some of the people who are accused of being red and communist  their aspiration is not to live under Kim Jong Un Kim Jong or Kim's dictatorship it's for National  reunification and they see the people of North Korea as their Brethren who they have been  separated from for almost 80 years now and the what is depicted as communist sympathies in a lot  of the work is really really the aspiration that

the two koreas reunify and that unfortunately has  gotten them into trouble and it's strange because people in North Korea are not allowed to see  that art they're not allowed to read those books because the state forbids it North Korea won't  allow its citizens to access the outside world to see things that it doesn't seem appropriate  right um and by South Korean government forbidding other people or trying to push back  against Ming art in its country it's repeating

the same behavior well yeah North Korean  materials you can't access them in South Korea yeah there's at the National Library south  of the river they do have a North Korean reading room MH and you have to fill out all sorts  of paperwork to just go in and there and consult anything um and you you can't bring  North Korean Publications into the country say you you go to visit North Korea or you go  you acquire them in China those are forbidden

materials here so yeah when the government  talks about unification and this was the case all throughout the dictatorships was that it's  unification through fervent anti-communism the people aren't the ones who get to have  a significant voice in determining what reunification looks like Unfortunately  today there's a lot of young people who are just so completely disengaged from issues of of  unification they don't see it as something that is

plausible within their lifetime but again uh there  was a quote that Joel wrote in this book and it's that for thousands of years it was one Korea mhm  even if there's another 100 years to go before the two koreas get unified the ultimate time that they  were separate becomes just a small blip mhm right yeah the future yes it may be difficult right  now but I wouldn't turn my nose up and say it's

impossible think about the future if the two were  to come together you know you might say it's crazy optimism but I don't think it's something that  should just be discounted nations rise and fall we think of them as these permanent institutions  in our lives but history shows that that's not necessarily the case there's a rising Cosmopolitan  cosmopolitanism amongst young people I think however the obviously we have mixed families and  children we have tck's third culture kids Korean

Americans there's a there's an engagement with the  wider World among some South Korean youth among some of them that might not necessarily share  this interest in the Mok or in this shared um this shared One race idea that sometimes would be  the basis for unification under the mung or and we should say here under the the Korean left as  well yeah I think a lot of young people you could say aspire to to be these Cosmopolitan globalized  citizens who have more in common with the Youth of

Europe and the US and Canada and other Advanced  Western Nations whereas they look down upon the North Korean people as well as Korean minorities  like the chj um orina zichi Koreans and Japan um whereas they are inferior to them because they  have not been exposed to the modernity that they have and they are not uh consumers of global  culture in capital in the same way yeah it's but I think it's hard again you don't want to  paint the whole youth population with a broad

brush but I think that's unfortunately kind of  a a trend that we're seeing is there a youth involvement in Shamanism and mung movement  I mean I is it more elderly people yeah I think from what I've seen uh it skews to the older  uh Generations who grew up and lived through you know the democratization movement it doesn't mean  there's not interest from young people and I think also the protests that are happening now that  may spark questions for some of the participants

of what heritage and what tradition of protest  culture uh is there for us to inherit uh and to absorb and learn from obviously that the means of  protest are very different today and young people are finding their own ways to creatively Express  themselves mhm and that's uh that's not a bad thing but I think it may open opportunities for  dialogue between Generations you spent some time

near or around the protests in in Hanam dong yeah  so I was working in ham Hanam dong in in January and February in an office right at hang Jin  station uh which is before yunio was arrested uh when they were preparing to arrest him for  Insurrection and leading the Rebellion um there was all of these supporters who had congregated  there with their American flags and their stop the steel signs um so got exposure to that um what  was he like up close well a lot of people there

came up to me mistaking that I'm American do you  believe in Freedom uh stop the steel that type of thing that was obviously uncomfortable um it was a  very different atmosphere from the pro-impeachment uh pro-democracy protests that unfolded in the  immediate aftermath of his Reckless Declaration of Martial law in December you know outside the  National Assembly um there was tens of thousands of people young people yeah lots of women labor  unions Progressive groups but also families mhm

um it it was very diverse I would say th those  protests and as the first impeachment vote failed the crowd became more diverse for that maybe  for a brief period the protesters who have been consistent are more you could say clearly  Progressive uh than at that time MH I don't know where I was going with this but I think the  protests what we're seeing now is different from in 2016 when you had the candlelight protests  against uh president Park at that time I think

there was I wasn't in Korea then but I believe  there was more consensus uh over the need for impeachment they were much bigger those prot yes  they were bigger um you had conservatives actively participating and recognizing that there was a  need for her removal from Office yeah so they were less partisan mhm MH they were perhaps less  bitter yes at that time the supporters of Park were older many men you had some involvement from  the church groups the so-called Taki Warriors who

you know saw attacks on her as coming from the  left wi and from Communists now they're much more divided along the partisan lines M the pro yune  crowd um it has those same Taki Warrior types but you also have younger people you know when there  was a ATT the attack on the Western District Court you saw a lot more younger people participating  there men um whereas on the I would say proem Ry anti-un pro-impeachment side there's a lot more  women M actively participating at the Forefront

why is that well I think when Yun ran for office  he ran on an anti-feminist platform he wanted to dismantle the ministry of gender equality he you  know you leveraged Eun socks rhetoric that you know the Korean man is suffering and um is at  a disadvantage because of things like military service and uh I'm not saying that young Korean  men don't have any legitimate grievances there are certainly things that um are difficult for them  and you know that need to be recognized and not

just treated with disdain they have legitimate  concerns but I think women were able to take a more prominent role because that Administration  was threatening many of their interests MH and this was an opportunity for them to really stand  up and say we need to fight for our future and we need to fight for our interests and you know I  it's not just starting now that tradition started with the previous Candlelight protests you know it  was students at Ewa Women's University who kind of

kicked those off and they've continued to build  on their um what their seniors did MH it would be nice if they had uh more political representation  beyond the official Democratic party I can't help but think especially with regards to  the last election with the the candidate yeah and he's a very divisive figure himself  and has his own baggage and various criminal cases but there are possibilities for third  parties fourth parties and fifth parties in

the Korean political scene um and to see for  example in the last election the Justice party get only 800,000 votes and 2% of the share um  I thought that was kind of disappointing yeah when you when you look at who is participating in  the protests there's certainly uh the green party the Justice party jinbang they're they're there  but yes they don't have the same stage presence as mang and uh you have the the newer parties you  know chok's party and they've kind of suffered

some setbacks with his recent imprisonment I  was going to say he's back in jail isn't he that's right yeah and it might be going that  way for eimy maybe on a suspended Center I don't know but that's coming up in March and and  then president there are so many unknowns right I think you know EJ m is sparked some controversy  in the past week by saying the mudang has kind of really been a Centrist mhm conservative party  and so is there trying to be some realign

in order to speak to the other side and broaden  the tent but I think he's also worried about his own cases and perhaps hopeful that an election  is called before those are concluded it feels like uh one view might be that Korean  democracy at the moment is a bit of a basket case but when you study history as you  have done you realize that it's at least a lot better than it was during some very dark periods  not too long ago I think what we saw in December

especially on the evening when the martial law  was declared we saw that many Korean people do not take their democracy however fragile it  is for granted they turned out very quickly there was hundreds of people who showed up at the  National Assembly to help the lawmakers enter the building and ensure that this martial law was  quickly repealed they look back at the history and see that their forefathers fought tooth and  nail for it uh and they're not going to let it

go without a fight um I mentioned the darkness  of Korean history as being a way in which we can look upon modernity more positively because  we sometimes compare South Korea to Advanced Nations elsewhere and and Korea's history is only  recently become a democracy you've spent a lot of time looking at Korean history in ways that  other people don't do you look at uncomfortable truths you look at tragedies that have been  covered up for political or economic or other

reasons um can we perhaps explore some of these  things the the difficult things that you look at Jack maybe we'll I'll start with talking a  little bit about what got me interested in career sure um when I was at Miguel I did two  undergraduate thesis projects one of those was

the history of mental health in Korea  starting from the colonial period up until really the early 2000s when you look  at mental health the history of it in Korea institutionalization was colored so much of  that but there was also these group confinement facilities and when I talk about group confinement  facilities what do I mean these were places where people who were at the bottom dredges of  society were taken against their will um

sometimes because they actually did have a mental  illness or mental health condition sometimes just because of their scrap Happ appearance you  know the word we often use to describe them in Korean isang kind of like a vagrant and  these people were seen as polluting society and as hindering the the quest towards modernity  so they were between these officials of these private social welfare and I say social welfare  in quotes facilities that the state outsourced

responsibility for these people too uh State  officials and then the The Operators of these facilities they colluded with each other to  you know kidnap these people off the street and lock them away in these horrendous conditions  uh some people might have heard of hung J ban the brothers home which was in Busan and that's  probably the most famous um case of a group confinement facility there was over 600 people who  lost their lives there it wasn't we can't say it

was a concentration camp akin to something like  aett but forced labor took place there when was this book J1 there was various entities under  which it operated but from the 60s until the late 80s I think the the the brother's home  mental hospital didn't close officially until 92 but the director of that facility assaulted  the inmates deprived them of food misused the subsidies that were supposed to be used for their  care uh some were beaten to death in his office um

the corpses of some of the inmates were then sold  to universities uh and were used for dissection and Medical Practice there was there were women  who were taken to this facility while pregnant and one of the latest articles I wrote was about  how the truth and Recon ciliation confirmed that 31 children born in the brother's home were  sent for overseas adoption um and that there was collusion between these sorts of private social  welfare facilities and then the adoption agencies

uh and this wasn't only in Busan it happened  in the Chung Chong region it happened in deu the the deu hope uh welfare home deu Municipal  home for vagrants so there was and then there was a case that was just announced yesterday an  ex official investigation to another facility in Busan that preceded the brother's home so it was  across the country and under chundan there were antiv vagrant ordinances that were promulgated  um to to take these people off the streets and

especially in these cleanup campaigns that  preceded the Olympics it was all about making um the venue cities attractive to foreigners  coming to Korea whereas these people were seen as um getting in the way of that and and and they  suffered tremendous human rights violations in the process M when did people start finding  out about this you OB obiously researched it for your undergrad Gil the first time well for  the brother's home that it was uncovered was

actually in the late 80s the opposition parties  in the National Assembly tried to conduct their own investigations and bring this to light the  brothers home did get closed at that time they tried to investigate other facilities like one  in the T on region but uh these lawmakers who went to investigate were assaulted themselves  uh by the staff when they tried to get in there um so those cases have taken until the Truth and  Reconciliation Commission to really get greater

awareness to them do you think there would be  much consciousness of the the brother's home in English what is brother's home in English Eng  Brothers welfare center is another name for it it's so sad how the name is generally sound so  nice and yet the history so dark is there much Consciousness consciousness of it in modern  career if you were to say to somebody sort of H I think people now maybe are familiar with  the name they don't necessarily know the history

behind it what unfolded there they know it was  a tragedy and maybe that there were human rights violations but there are other incidents like  the San Pioneer Court these were um vagrants from the soul in ton areas who were some of  them had jobs like they were Sho shine boys or you know delivery people and they had jobs but  and maybe they actually had a residence and a A Boarding House of some kind but nevertheless  they were taken uh and they were forced

to down along the western coast um what do  you call it um land reclamation projects and they were basically forced to settle there  building uh their own communities and the Soul city government officiated Mass wedding  ceremonies whereas they would be paired up with a prostitute and then the couple would be  sent down to San where they would have to reclaim the land and then produce a model happy  family after that it sounds outrageous yeah and

that those incidents I think far fewer people  probably know about compared to yungi one but that those have been investigated by The Truth  and Reconciliation Commission say something about that the truth sure that that that was my  other undergraduate thesis project at Migel so

there was a Truth and Reconciliation Commission  that was established under the nun government MH and it's 2002 to 2007 the N government roughly  is it yes roughly uh I'm drawing a blank on the year that this commission actually started there  had been pushes for it all through like the Kim uh Kim de Jong government um but it the issue  was always getting asent in the National Assembly which was very polarized then as it is today  so no got the commission off the ground and I

believe there was 200,000 cases submitted to that  first Truth and Reconciliation Commission but only a very very small fraction of those cases were  ultimately uh investigated and had truth finding decisions rendered what kind of cases were they  they looked at some of the civilian massacres they looked started looking at things like HJ bjw but  the problem was that when the government changed IMB the kind it it lost its footing it became  very politicized the government saw this Truth and

Reconciliation as digging up inconvenient history  um and also this commission was looking at things like the chinela the pro-japanese collaborators  so there was discomfort with what it was doing so they started cutting funding to the commission  and ultimately um regardless of its recommendation many of them were not acknowledged and no  action was taken so that's why it had so much unfinished business and then when there was  another you could say progressive government um

it was reestablished the second incarnation  of the Truth and Reconciliation uh commission kicked into being and that was under Moon Jan's  government The Truth and Reconciliation Commission is still working right now it its mandate  currently is set to expire in May I believe May 26 and that's unless the National  Assembly decides to extend it further they would be likely to I imagine considering  the Democratic party majority in the assembly

uh I think there yeah it's it's hard to say  right now because some of the commissioners have already expressed um that they do not seek  to have their terms renewed even if its mandate is extended uh under the yuno government again  we have seen politicization of the commission the commission the head Commissioners have made  outrageous stat ments where they are trying to where they have you know tried to identify  bereaved families as collaborators and as as

Communists and are reinvestigating cases that had  already had truth decisions rendered unto them MH um the the current chairwoman was appointed a few  days after you declared martial law very quietly and uh she has already met a frosty reception with  some lawmakers in the National Assembly because of remarks she has made on social media where she has  praised Yun where she has praised uh past leaders

like chundan and uh Pak chuni she distributed her  book to all of the staff at the commission around s now this year uh and in that book had you know  passages praising these controversial leaders and that was viewed as a as an inappropriate action  for the chairwoman of this sort of very sensitive uh body so there there are many issues right now  and and one of the biggest issues ultimately with the truth Reconciliation Commission is that its  recommendations are non-binding MH so what happens

is you can get your truth decision if you are a  victim or a bereaved family but then you face all sorts of other uphill battles you if for example  you may have to go and argue the case in court and there are VAR you know you or you argue  it in a district court you win you are awarded compensation in the honor of your relative or  your own honor is restored but then the government appeals that and you have to go to the next court  and that takes could take years it takes a lot of

effort there are many people who are quite  elderly or who pass away while they're case are being decided so they'll never ultimately  see Justice you know the commission has when we talked about the group confinement facilities  one of their recommendations is that there's an institutionalized mechanism whereby the truth  Seekers are able to then get set compensation and they don't have to go through all these additional  hurdles but again that all of this depends on

political will mhm in the National Assembly to get  these things established and there's a lot of I think ton deafness um with some of the lawmakers  that will make this very difficult there's I'm sometimes very dubious of things that are called  the Democratic Republic of blah blah blah and I'm not just talking about our neighbors to the  north but sometimes names are there to throw us off the scent very difficult question here but  do you think either the left the Democratic party

or the right are capable of finding the truth in  these senses you've already talked about the heavy politicization of the right and the uh denying  people of Honor compensation trying to prolong uh trials various means and such forth um do you  think that the Democratic Party [Music] uh face similar challenges but overcome them better or  you understand my question here perhaps I mean is is it possible to find truth in these  situations is either party capable of it

or does it need something else nonpolitical I try  to when I think I think about this question a lot and I think one of the starting points you have a  very time difficult time getting to the root of it because this could get me into trouble but I'll  say it the Chila the pro-japanese collaborator issue is one of the biggest obstacles to truth  seeking because when Korea was liberated the issue

of collaboration was not addressed right the isman  government shook hands with these collaborators and returned them to their previous positions  of influence whether it be in government or in the police because at that time the priority was  not addressing collaboration it was fortifying anti-communism there was American Support this as  well to put these people back into positions which they previously occupied absolutely and obviously  there's an important security relationship with

the United States that persists to this day  and we haven't had a proper Reckoning of that 5-year period after Liberation when uh when  the Americans were here as an occupying Force so ultimately until today there are people in the political system who have  benefited from the collaboration issue not being resolved um the descendants of collaborators  continue to enjoy positions of significant influence in politics as well well as in business  they and that's why when history is taught in the

schools here you don't get the full picture  because the curriculum is um distorted in many ways to to downplay that history of collaboration  it's you know collaboration is very complex you can't just say that there were there were  certainly people who collaborated um because they saw it as a way to advance their careers to  enrich themselves uh some people who collaborated took issue with Japanese imperialism um but saw  collaboration as an effective means to achieve

the ultimate goal of Liberation uh some felt that  they had no choice and that it was something that needed to be done to protect their families but  we haven't had proper debates about collaboration yet and that that affects you know all of the  issues with Japan because we many will say that Apologies by Japan have been insincere and are  not coming from the right place and that Japan has not reckoned with its history properly there  have been many apologies just for the record

whether they're insincere or not exactly so there  have been apologies and some of those apologies have been um organized and agreed upon at the  state level but has have not necessarily included victims right but in any case it's very easy for  Japan to say what are what are you telling us to repent for Korea you haven't resolved the O your  own Troubles of collaboration I don't think it it's has to be that Korea resolve all its own  issues before Japan can um address some of the

denialism that exists there the two can happen  at the same time but I think addressing the collaboration in Korea would also help facilitate  that dialogue um there was an app released I think around the same time as the Truth and  Reconciliation or a list of collaborators there has been a list of collaborat included p chongi  on that list there there's a list of collaborators and that was painstakingly put together over  decades and the task of overseeing This research

is now uh in the hands of Min yongo uh they have  a a museum actually of the history of Japanese imperialism in I believe Chong in yongan and uh  I I I've been visiting there frequently because I I wrote about the Yasukuni Shrine issue uh  which they have been active in advocacy about um so yes there there are non-governmental  organizations that have done a lot of research and and tried very hard to bring these issues to  life this is probably a flippant and question but

I couldn't help thinking well there come a day  a hundred years or many decades in the future where for example and again it's flippant forgive  me where my son or my daughter have to apologize because during this period of time we are working  and we are benefiting ourselves we're getting rich in South not very rich but do you see what I mean  we're working inside this political structure and we're existing and we're paying our taxes um that  we could simply be living our lives and yet the

future could look upon us very differently yeah  I think that's very much a possibility you know it people's circumstances were very different 8  years ago and it will be hard for us to ever fully comprehend what they the choices that they had  to make but that doesn't mean that we don't try to do that right and try our best to to Grapple  with these difficult histories and understand the contradictions that are inherent in them um there  were socialists who collaborated and then defected

to North Korea um but many of the  collaborators were rightwing so it it's not black or white there's a lot of gray  and ultimately people say being Shackled to the past is a hindrance to the Future uh I I  can't buy that um I I think that ultimately if we leave history unresolved uh the  the issues persist it's not just going to magically Disappear by addressing these  issues now uh we're setting ourselves up for a

better future MH a future that is perhaps less  polarized where there's ability for people on opposite sides to see each other as human  beings and not just as caricatures right um you know I've been doing a lot of research  about the civilian massacr of the Korean War and many of the bereaved families their entire  lives they have been called words like pagany or red or communist and that's had very tangible  consequences you know it's precluded them from

certain jobs from enrollment in institutions  from going to the military academy uh it's led to them being subjected to surveillance  by the police state to being denied passport and you know right now we're seeing a  mirroring of the political rhetoric I think in the US there's a sort of McCarthyism in  Korea and and some of these bereaved families are rightfully fearful because again the  word polyany is being flippantly used

to attack anyone whose political opinion you  disagree with mhm um so these is you can say yes you're Shackled to history but when you've  lived your whole life as a victim of History um yes it's I I I think I can get very  passionate about it because sitting across from these people and listening to the the  horrible things that they've had to endure in their lives but also hearing about  the resilience that they have shown mhm

um I I want to go and scream in the faces of  anyone who calls them things like pagany and just uses these words um in such a destructive way that  has very tangible consequences and on the level of caricature it might be said that it's palagi  versus chinela the two words the the Communist versus the uh Japanese collaborators and to me  that still seems to be one of the thought lines in in Korean Society in politics it's what um  political parties leverage it's not so much about

um sort of a a woke culture or uh immigration that  we find in Europe is a big Touchstone sometimes it's not always as much about gender but these  two things and and what I like what that you you do Jack is that you you go and actually speak  to people and listen to their stories which is uh

getting away from the caricatures and uh you know  I see the work that you do online that you you go and have what was it um radish and sweet potato  was that the meal last Friday I was in Ted on my wife and I went and uh I'm very lucky because she  helps me often with translation and interpretation you know know uh I I can only do so much on my  own not being a native speaker I'm I still have a lot to learn but yes we went to gongol which  is in ton tjon is where I lived for a year when

I first came to Korea because that's where I  did my language studies at uh chungnam National University but gongo was a site of a civilian  Massacre of the Korean War where anywhere from 2,000 to 8,000 people were slaughtered wow and  we we we I had made arrangements to go interview the head of the bereaved families Association  slaughtered by whom North Koreans Chinese American mainly these were by Korean police military  right-wing militia Korean on Korean yes there

were also massacres in the ton area committed by  invading North Korean forces so and across Korea you have civilian massacres by state forces as  well as by what they often call hostile forces these are like the gorilla combatant but in this  particular incident in Ted on it was the state and many in in many of the  civilian massacres you had people who were in The prisons so in this case ton prison they were brought out of the prison on the  for the reason of being transferred normally to

another prison on paper but actually they were  brought out to the periphery of the city and killed there because the isman government feared  that if the north were to invade that these people would potentially be collaborators and join  with the northern forces then there was the B the the national guidance league and this was  uh an organization or a registry system where people who had been accused of collaboration maybe  with socialist forces during the PO in the post

Liberation period they were coerced tricked um  encouraged or sometimes voluntarily they enrolled in this and it's basically saying that they repent  and that they will be faithful subjects of the Republic of Korea Government and that they will  not engage in these uh pro-communist pro-socialist activities and in exchange for registering  they there was the assurance that they would be supported in you know getting a job in getting  you know different sorts of subsidies and that

they would be protected by the state but then uh  these people were rounded up put on the backs of trucks and slaughtered as the war intensified in  the 50 51 5 roughly in in the early 1950s at the beginning and into the first months of the Korean  War and this happened as well in deu um right now the areas I've been concentrating are are deu  Yong yongan gang and and gongo as well as in tan okay and there's there's different Regional  variations in the context of the massacres and

who the victims were so like for example in  deu that's where the October Uprising started and this you could call the the first first uh  Democratic Uprising in the post Liberation period and it was against the US military government deu  um in around 1946 was suffering from all sorts of issues from Cera from that had started because  of flooding to famine um because of Reckless uh grain requisition policies of the military  government um under the military government Land

Reform did not proceed as quickly as the peasant  classes expected um there was suppression of labor union so ultimately at the beginning of October  1946 the people of deu rose up deu is now the most conservative city in the country but it was  very socialist before um and in that case many of the participants of the deu uprising and then the  uprisings that followed across the region um they were registered under the Bodo League or they were  imprisoned for the roles they played and then they

they were massacred and then also in these massacr  on the mainland you had juu victims juu 43 yeah uh because jedu did not have its own prison so the  the prisoners were shipped off to to guangju and toan andu and chongu and Etc and then when the  prisons were emptied out they were massacred in these sites so um the jedu massacre was sassan  he's becoming uh talked about a lot more yeah I've had students tell me that they didn't know  about it before in previous years I think in the

last sort of decade perap sure there's been a big  movement to uncover H gang's work as well her her her recent book uh actually speaks H to jedu  sasam and it also speaks to the gangan Cobalt mine Massacre um because one of the characters  uh had participated in the uprising in jedu and then was sent to prison in deu and was ultimately  massacred at the gangan Cobalt mine uh so when I was attending the weirong the morning rituals last  October there would be banners with all of the

names of the jedu related victims because their  names do not appear on the actual memorials and there's all sorts of politics there but in deu  like at gangol which is another Massacre site uh the city refused to include the names of  the jju victims on the monument saying that it would ruin it this is a difficult question  here because we don't sort of have computers in front of us but you mentioned the ton uh Massacre  of 1950 as being somewhere between 2 to 8,000 MH

now Guang the different numbers go around and  really different numbers I mean I I want to say I've seen some numbers that seem to be looking in  the right direction please correct me a couple of hundred yeah there are some yeah and then they  can go up to a couple of thousand they can go up to a couple of thousand or even more yeah  um juu seems to be one of the the the bigger ones as well in terms of any numbers on the I I  sometimes they say a million victims overall of

Civilian massacres across all of Korea during the  K before during and after the Korean War yeah so in some senses and you could argue but there this  esman government has more blood on its hands than the number of people who were actually killed  in the fighting between the two militaries more civilian deaths in the during the Korean War than  many other conflicts because it was was a a fluid front line yes uh so rather than just trenches and  soldiers it was people that b the and people got

caught um you know Villages didn't necessarily  always move so at one point they might have the you know the the Republic's forces there and  they may provide food and assistance to them but then the north might invade and and and take  over that Village and then at that point they have no choice but to uh you know give their rice to  them give them shelter help them so and and many of the massacre victims you know there was all  sorts of Guerilla struggles during the the post

Liberation period that very chaotic period some  of them became members of the boto League simply because at Night Gorilla forces would come down  to their Village and demand rice at gunpoint and then at that Point yes they gave rice but then  later they would be dragged off to prison or inscribed in the Bodo league and ultimately killed  I can't help but think that if you're a a farmer in uh the late 1940s uh in Korea you might not  necessarily know the difference between communism

and capitalism and the ideologies that seem to  be uh R when we describe them right or you might have an awareness of it but when you think about  the tenant Farmers how much they suffered under the Japanese colonial rule when they saw the  promises and the possibility of land reform these were the solutions that the the leftwing parties  were advocating so I don't think it's unreasonable that people that these parties enjoyed uh popular  support right right uh because the positions that

they advocated uh would drastically improve the  conditions of so many people at that time and then we we we often forget too like in in places like  deu um the food in the sanitation situations those were exacerbated by the returning countrymen  who had come back from Japan uh when Korea was liberated that had returned from Manchuria so  all of these people returning they needed housing they needed jobs so the the system as it was  structured needed radical reform right and and

that's what prompted people to participate in  things like the de October movement and we talk about guangju we talk about 1960 but you know  I think PE many people in deu don't know about the October Uprising or Revolution and as you  say t on and deu and and many other incidences and there would have been those taking place in  North Korea as well of what is now North Korea but at the time um which we know probably far less  about M it's we're highlighting here at the moment

Jack the the various Korean on Korean massacres  tragedies blood loss of life and it's all resulted in a land that's still divided and a people that  are still separated and uh a a casual look at the discourse would often paint external actors as the  belligerent in these situations whether it's North Korea Japan or China or even America yeah um is it  a little bit uncomfortable to be sort of looking at and saying this is what Korea did to Korea  yeah it is uncomfortable and I think you know I

do have hope because I'll give you one example in  gongsan gongsan is a a satellite city of deu very conservative it's not at the political level  that we see reconciliation happening but the possibility of reconciliation is being shown To  Us by the actual victims mm the gangang Cobalt mine Massacre 3,500 people killed uh in in a very  gruesome way we went to the site of the mine last October with two bereaved family members both of  whom's fathers were killed there basically the the

the massacre happened with people being taken to  the top of the vertical shaft eight people tied together first they shot each person and pushed  them into the mine later they found it was more economical to use one bullet shoot the first  person they fall they drag seven people behind them then they light carine and drop A Match Into  the mine horrible just crimes against humanity so that happened there and they have their annual we  Memorial ritual and uh the kyong sang Cobalt mine

of 3,000 death that was what year this was again  same time frame um early outbreak yeah outbreak of the Korean War over the summer months me so yes  and then so the politicians don't really show up to that the mayor they won't show up they you know  in for the the Bodo League Massacre Hong jimo sent his secretary to deliver remarks they couldn't  send a council member I don't blame bed family members for heckling MH and expressing their  disgust but and then in gongsan there was um

the bakadi incident and this is where Guerilla  leftwing forces came into a village and they they massacred a small number of people  there m and that case was investigated by The Truth and Reconciliation Commission and yes  though the people who were killed there uh were killed by leftwing and again those are crimes that  need to be addressed when they have a much smaller Memorial the police force shows up the mayor shows  up the Korean Freedom Federation shows up and it's

important to to mourn all of the losses yeah that  occurred but what impressed me was that the head of the bereaved families for the bakari incident  attended the memorial for the gangang Cobalt mine Massacre and the in previous years the directors  of the bereaved Family Association for the Cobalt mind they had attended the memorial for the bakar  so on that level they're starting to see people each other as humans they were both Vic victims  of the politics of the times of the war of the

infighting of the political situation so I I  hope that there's in the future there can be more dialogue between the victims of both  sides as well as future Generations their descendants I think there will be um  because unlike some other countries in this region democracy in a free open society  and career is certainly not perfect um but as you've documented since the start of this  conversation and your work it's possible

to go and see dissident artists it's uh maybe  one day they won't be called dissident artists they'll just be called artists but it's possible  to to share these stories and to talk about them and while there's an element of trepidation  still that perhaps persists nevertheless it does persist and it does exist and uh that wasn't  necessarily the case in the past and again it's not necessarily the case in many other countries  no not just in this region but elsewhere and I

think it's important especially for me to say  I'm not a Korean so there's always sensitivity there uncovering this history and in Korea is not  unique the state in in many other incidents is is responsible for atrocities I'm from Canada we've  had our own Truth and Reconciliation Commission that has have has looked into the crimes against  indigenous people and the recommendations that that commission has made uh remain unfulfilled  and I was listening to a podcast a few months ago

and they said if all of those recommendations  were to be acted upon in Canada we wouldn't see their fulfillment for another 60 70 years  wow so Korea is not unique in that regard no but in in all of these instances we need to  have these debates we need to have the courage to talk about them is there a slight difference  because here the country is still here the land is still divided here there is still technically  an ongoing war and uh coming back to it all young

men are deprived and isolated for near enough  two years and told there's the enemy over there and uh you know when I when I speak to military  officials and Generals that if they didn't train these young men to be killing machines they  wouldn't be doing their job right uh and and they need to to to focus them and young Korean  men that maybe some listeners might see in the uh convenience stores or the coffee shops some of  them have sat in offices some of them have just

jogged around army bases others have uh been up  at the DMZ with guns pointed across the border and uh some of those people are the reason we can have  a a coffee in peace in Soul yes that's a reality which is very different from other parts of the  world isn't it absolutely and I think it brings us back to the issue of you know re peaceful  reunification um so many of these issues can the the main obstacle Remains the division of  this land and that there are two regimes who

each manipulate history and memory for their own  Survival yeah uh the state wants to manipulate memories of the past and show that a strong  state is needed uh for security and ultimately the perpetuity of the regimes and for the country  to survive have you thought much about North Korea and what it does we we haven't really touched on  it during this conversation but it's an interest certainly and it's something I try to read  about and it it's always it colors so many

of the issues here um so yeah like it obviously is  the reason that powers like the United States have been in Korea for so long uh one of the issues  that I've been working on is the Comfort women right MH and obviously most listeners will  be familiar with the Japanese Comfort women

but I think what a lot might be surprised  about or maybe they've heard about it and don't know an awful lot about it are the American  Military Comfort women right so that whole system and I I I I I will call them American Military  Comfort women because that is the terminology that was used in the in infectious disease prevention  Act of 1957 the pakuni government at that time is man and then the pakuni government thereafter they  used the term Comfort women now the state was not

um handson playing a role in mobilizing  these women like the Japanese had done but they accepted that controlling these women  and administering VD control and regulating them was necessary to boost the morale of the US  troops that were here and the men were never the problem you know the view of the state was oh a  man can't carry STD MH uh even though they were in reality responsible for a lot of the spread  the target was always the Korean women and many

of these women were yes you could say some will  say that they voluntarily acted as prostitutes but many of them were compelled into it through  trickery that you know they thought they were getting one job in were actually sold off uh to  a pimp or you know their economic circumstances demanded it coming in from the countryside with  little education maybe they were persuaded with patriotism calls or something like that as  well perhaps yes but ultimately um you know

the state violated the human rights of these  women as well um right now there's a fight unfolding at the foot of soosan in dongan  over the yet the the the last remaining um VD control VD Detention Center in the country  and this building shut down only in the '90s um does opening my previous guest referred to  uh the women because he had photos of the of the American soldiers these colored photos  he referred to them as Camp girls or camp

to yeah to call them sort of comfort women  or weo to utilize the same terms um does that help Japan in some way you know what I mean  by this I know what you mean I'm not trying to be uncomfortable here but it then allows  Japan to say you're accusing us of doing the same thing that you did perhaps before and  after we were there and yeah I I think it's difficult like there there's many would hesitate  I think to use the term Comfort women um and say

that perhaps their experiences detract from  the experiences of the Japanese uh survivors But ultimately I think there's solidarity  between the two mhm and the harmonies who um continue to protest for a resolution of  the Comfort women issue as it relates to Japan um do not I don't they they don't see the  American Military Comfort women as non-humans they they see them as victims of violence that  occurred in a militarized landscape you know

um the there was one of the Halon who passed  away very recently halmony being grandmother yeah um and she used some of her compensation  money to establish the butterfly fund and that wasn't only about Korean  Comfort women it was about the na of violence All Around the World in Conflict  zones whether it be from Vietnam to the Congo and it was established by her and one of the other  honies and the message is that there needs to be

solidarity in Korea outside of Korea to address  these problems and uh abuses that come from conflict one can only hope that we getting  there yes the the we I I think in South Korea specifically we've seen the eradication uh we've  seen the gradual disappearance at least in the physical space of areas of prostitution because  when I arrived 20 years ago they shocked me quite a lot but they were visible throughout the city um  in ways that I'd not really seen other than sort

of venturing into a specific part of Amsterdam  where you knew and expected it but in South Korea or in Soul rather I was up in dong Duan playing  concerts with rock and roll bands and I I would walk through the street and you could see wow  this is the the juicy bars or something like this that that does seem to have I'm not saying  it's disappeared but physically it's disappeared a lot yeah it's in many instances like uh and not  all prostitution is not only disappearing as it

relates to the camp towns but you know there was  also all sorts of prostitution for just regular Korean customers I live in chongyang which was the  the large once was the largest red light district in Asia East Asia and that's all now high-rise  apartment so that that whole landscape has been erased but yes there are still women who are  working in the sex trade um and many of them you know they're at an age now where it's very  hard for them to think of any other sort of work

um they they don't necessarily have the skills or  the education that allow them to easily leave this behind MH um but there are organizations doing  important work to help them and provide them resources and counseling one of those is uh durang  MH and um what's that it's my sister's place in English and it was uh founded by I believe the  sister-in-law of uh munan the pro-unification church leader MH um I was I interviewed the  director of that organization when I was writing

about the need to preserve this um s so the the  VD detention center and uh after that my wife actually got involved and has been volunteering  with them um they're taking some of the uh the grandmothers out tomorrow to to do strawberry  picking and they do Outreach still to in we Jong Buu and and once a month to to go and visit  these uh these institutions where you know sex trade takes place and in in in sharing information  that you know these are the resources that you

have available to you and and trying to let them  know that there are people who will support them and will help them if they are ready to accept  that help on a on a personal level where do you

and your wife and many others like you find the  personal fortitude to do these things because it's very easy excuse me it's very easy to look into  your phone and be distracted by all the wonderful Sparkles and uh non-stop entertainment that comes  at us but to uh look at things that might make us uncomfortable or to look at things that we might  be the right thing to do isn't necessarily you know the most fun or most enjoyable thing where do  you find the the fortitude to do that Jack I think

it is just something that I find is necessary um I  think ever since I was young I've been interested in these sorts of historical social justice  issues and you know it's I'm doing it because I think even if I can just play a very small all  minor role and helping bring the issue to light to amplify their voice uh I think that's important  and that's what I ultimately aspire to do um it's not I don't think it's about becoming famous or  you know making money from it it's just I think

it's right it's necessary and ultimately there are  people who need to do these things if we want to see society change in in a positive direction yeah  does it ever get hard uh I think it can be hard but ultimately no matter how much I think about  these things it's never going to be at the same level as somebody who has been a victim of it  like their their hardships are so much greater um it takes up a lot of Mind space and certainly  makes me think of all sorts of questions and I

think about it a lot often late into the night  but um I don't think that's necessarily a bad bad thing or a troubling thing what I ultimately  hope is I think that there should be I I talked to you about the research I've done on Mental Health  in Korea yeah and across the board Mental Health Services here are insufficient and there's still  the taboo of seeking help but I would like to see greater Mental Health and trauma support for the  many Korean people who have lived um with traumas

in their lives because of these many incidents  as whether they be Massacre uh victims bereaved families or whether they be Korean adoptees you  know um guangju right now is the only city that actually has a Trauma Center and it's done a lot  of work uh counseling those who have suffered as a result of the guangju democratic Uprising but in  cities like deu there there's there's no budget for it Hong Jung as the mayor cut the entire human  rights budget in the city so uh chongi who's the

head of the bereaved families Association for the  deu October Uprising she won Citizen Award and she used the money from that to offer counseling  to other bed families nice so I hope those sorts of services become more accessible in the future  to those who need it because there are bereaved family members who have suffered they have tried  to commit suicide MH um some have many of the people will never launch cases with the Truth  and Reconciliation Commission because their

lives have already ended um so yeah I I I hope  ultimately if there's one recommendation apart from restoring honor to these people it's actually  taking cognizance of the suffering that they have endured and helping them overcome that even if  it's just a little bit in the English language at least we have all of these sort of old adages  and expressions and things that a problem shared is a problem halfed and uh everything that  you say speaks I think to the the lessons and

sensibilities that we we were taught uh regardless  of what tradition or from where it came from but I I think what you say is perhaps not common sense  but widely know but not acted upon enough and it's it's it's a it's a taboo in many ways I think to  say it it it can get you in trouble because of how polarized we are what what is the what what is the  thing that gets you in trouble well I think there recognizing the other side yeah is often the  hardest thing to do and the most controversial

thing because so often now and with social  media we're all in our own Echo Chambers true right um it we we lose sight of other perspectives  because we only see and hear what we want to hear and when we stay in those bubbles the language  exaggerates and amplifies to the fact that any communication across the bubbles becomes form  of cognitive dissonance yeah it's hard harder to be objective yeah right I think it as much as I  tried to go meet people and listen to their story

I think it is still important to to listen  and be open to hearing other arguments um as long as it's done in the right way right I don't  think it's we should give Credence to conspiracy theories and malicious no attacks but there are  OB there's always two sides to a story and it's important to recognize that yeah uh well said uh  I've been bowled over continuously um by your work by your courage and I hope that many people uh  will go and find it when I had um David Kim from

uh Korean Pizza Club on here I recommended your  social media okay uh in in one of his things as a as a way for people to learn more about Korea what  should people uh do jack to find you where should they go uh I think a lot of people are still on Ax  so I'm I'm still on Ax I still call it Twitter and I call it Twitter my bus card says Twitter uh so I  post there only for the reason that there are many

Koreans still on there I I prefer blue sky and  I'm there and I'd like to be more active on there I have Instagram I think the user handle on all  of these sites is Jack W Greenberg is berg with an E not a u um I have a a newsletter that I'm  trying to put out monthly hopefully in the future bi-weekly that's called gachi in Korea the gachi  is like the the mag pie it's not a negative symbol but magpies and folk culture are bearers of good  news so in this case it's trying to be a bearer

of good news and important news the magp also uh  of bothered the Tigers didn't they they this was a part of mung art how do you spell GTI in English  uh I think I I've romanized it as double g a CI double G yeah okay uh please everybody go and find  uh Jack's work however you find it before I let you go two or three recommendations can be books  movies albums film something that people might want to get their teeth into career related or not  just first recommendation if you're in Korea get

outside of Soul do yourself a favor uh soul is  great it has so much history and so many things to see it's fascinating I I find new things every  day just from walking around but uh go out to the countryside go into the mountains um experience  that side of Korea what some people will know is that I now do a lot of farming at my in-laws uh  harvesting sweet potatoes and chili and garlic and I never thought I would enjoy that because as  a kid I hated getting dirty I hate it you know

uh but it changes your perspective completely  on things like just where food comes from how much labor goes into farming uh you know anyone  who turns their nose up and looks down upon a farmer um should get their head checked because  uh there's so much knowledge and intelligence and labor that goes into putting the food you eat  onto your table yeah um so yes go out see Korea go into the mountains there's thousands of temples  that you can go and visit um there's so much to

see there's history uh there's different dialects  that you can expose yourself to different food go out travel if you're not in Korea go out travel uh  however you can whether it's in your own country or internationally uh just try to expose yourself  as much to other cultures uh in other parts of the world that you wouldn't encounter in your  regular life beautiful other recommendations uh I could go on about all sorts of books right now  I'm reading ich Chang Dong's recently translated

anthology of short stories mhm so ich Chang  dong was the minister of culture under uh N I believe he is a very he is better known as a  director rather than a writer so some of the listeners if you're film afficianados you'll be  familiar with like burning oh yeah or peppermint candy green fish so he directed all of these  films but a penguin just released in England uh his short stories and these are all stories  that are set during the the 80s and they talk

about some of some of them speak to things we've  spoken about in our conversation like the national guidance League uh student activists uh former you  know gorilla Fighters so they're they're timely stories they're important stories and he's a very  good writer I would say he's brilliant director yes fil I've seen only some of them but I I agree  with you there give us one more Jack one more yeah last night my wife and I went to the  Korea film archive if you don't know about this

institution it is amidst all of the broadcasting  stations in digital media City mhm you'd get off at uh susek station yeah the Korea film archive  I think every day of the week except Sunday and Monday they have two or three film screenings  for free wow anyone can go you book your tickets online you can get their tickets at the box  office and they do foreign films they do uh Korean films so last night we went to see Mangin  which is uh in English the Widow okay and this

was from 1955 and it was the first film uh in  Korea to be directed by a woman and this woman uh paknam I think her name was she she was born  in hayang which is near where my wife is from in gangang near deu uh and one of the things is that  she directed the movie with her child on her Back strapped in the swaddle uh the film was restored  by the film archive in K unfortunately the last 10 minutes of it didn't have any sound that the  sound has been lost but just watching that film

uh was fascinating because you see all the street  scenes of wherever it was filmed in 1955 um so go go to the film archive also you can rent DVDs  from their vast repository and then they have computers and little rooms where you can go with  headphones phones and listen and watch whatever is you want to see amazing that something can be free  in today's age yeah it's a they do a there are so many things in Korea that I think um there are so  many free institutions art art galleries libraries

film institutes you know in we Jong Buu you can  go and listen to vinyl records for free at the public library nice so go find these things take  advantage of them share them with other people and uh and then go out into the countryside  yes indeed Jack thank you thank you thank you e for