Well welcome to the interview room here at, come with kc. We are super excited. This is, I mean, this is officially our first. That's it. Our first legit interview that we're doing, Uhhuh So whenever you watch this back, you can understand why we've done this and we have a super, super special guest. We're very excited. We wanna welcome to the show and I'll start this off by reading her bio. This is Lee David Elliot Cray. So also let me add in. The PhD on the end of that. Super important.
Mm-hmm. there you go. We gotta give credit where credit is due. So, uh, pronouns of she and they is an author, a board certified sexologist, lgbtq i a plus and BDSM educator, coach and consultant. She's the founder of, of transient coaching, a podcaster on the mo. And LGBTQIA plus curriculum coordinator for the Sexual Health Alliance. She is currently based out of Los Cruces, New Mexico, where she watches a lot of horror movie with her cats movies with the cats So welcome
Welcome, Matt. I guess I, you welcome. I say hello. Hello?
That's like when someone says, enjoy your movie, and you're like, you too. And you're
Well,
Well, Lee, we are, we are, we are super pleased to have you on the show today. We, we know. Personally just how much, what, what sort of information you have that you're gonna be able to share with us and our audience. And, um, I, I think that anybody listening to this by the time we finish mm-hmm. Is just gonna have their mind blown with some of the best fucking information that they can possibly get. And relevant and relevant information. Relevant. That's the best part.
Um. Uh, your credentials are just like through the roof. Amazing. And, and we're so happy to, to have you on. Um, but where did all this come from? Where did this begin? Where did this start? To, to be able to like, go through all these studies, personalize everything in the way that you have, you have to have a beginning, and I'm really curious to what that is.
Oh yeah, that's a really great question. Where did it all start? So, I've always really had a thirst for self understanding. I wanna know who I am, I wanna know what I am. I wanna know why I am all of these questions. So all throughout my life, I've been someone who's just trying to fill in gaps and, and sort of put pieces together so that I can understand where I've been, where I am, where I'm going.
And that's taken me through a lot of different things because my attention shifts from one place to another. So I'm like, okay, I gotta understand this aspect of myself. Now I gotta understand this aspect of myself. Now I gotta understand how those two aspects relate.
Yes, but that's very self-aware and that's like a lot of power in that self-awareness.
Yeah, it's self-awareness. It can cut both ways because sometimes it also gets annoying. I wish I could just awful while, you know.
That's fair.
Yeah. So I, I grew up, I was a weird kid in rural Pennsylvania and I just had a lot of weird interests. Didn't have a lot of people like me around, so I spent a lot of time alone, uh, a lot of time playing Dungeons and Dragons with people on the internet and stuff like that.
Eventually went to graduate school, fell in love with philosophy, which is a natural fit with the other stuff I was describing, and pursued my PhD. And it was while I was getting my PhD that I first started coming around to, uh, being exposed to more inclusive, more affirming, more contemporary discussions of gender and sexuality, gender identity, sexual. And the moment I heard it all, I resonated with it. I was like, oh yeah, these, this is what I need to do. This is what I need to be.
But I always felt like that area wasn't, um, I wasn't allowed in that area because here I am, I'm just some straight, cisgender white guy. Who am I to start doing all this queer theory stuff and exploring. Atypical sexualities and all that. I felt like I would be stepping on people's toes if I got into it. And of course what was going on was I was deeply in denial in making excuses. I was class playing as that straight cient boy, when really that wasn't me at all.
I just wasn't in a place yet where I could acknowledge that. Mention. I, I did. And um, I acknowledged it and the reception was really terrible, so I pushed it down for a bunch of, And went way back deep in the closet until I couldn't anymore. And it all kind of burst forward. And just over the span of a couple years transformed into this, uh, person that's in front of you right now.
So clearly you would consider a much better version of yourself.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, better's tricky. Um, You know, but I would say a more self-actualized version of here, someone who's really leaning into their own sense of wellbeing and kind of not just talking a big game, but trying to back it up with the way I move through the world and the way it talk with others too.
So did let, let me ask you this personal question. Did you, did is, did you feel that you were misgendered at a younger age or have you, was this something that out of nowhere you went, wait a minute,
would say that aunt wasn't available to me at a younger age. Uh, cause I, I didn't know what misgendering was. Um, I knew that all the kids in school called me a girl. Um, they're also the ones who now grew up. And they would be the loudest to tell me now that I'm not. So I'm like, pick a side, honey. Which one is it?
Right. I love that.
Yeah. But growing up, you know, I was definitely in retrospect, gender nonconforming, but I didn't have that vocabulary. I didn't have those concepts. I didn't see the world or interpret my experiences in that way, but I definitely.
that's a difficult thing. You're right. I mean, we didn't have that type of vocabulary growing up and to have this feeling inside that you're not really even aware of that you have, because it doesn't necessarily seem outside of your normal. I feel like the thing that people don't understand is like nothing outside of your normal feels odd until it's pointed out to you. Until someone's like, Hey, you're being a little bit different. And you're like, wait, like am I?
And so I can imagine like growing. in your generation. You know, it's, it's super interesting to see how it is for kids nowadays. They, they have a little bit more self-awareness to, to these words and these concepts. And so I'm curious, as someone that is an educator and someone that is a teacher, um, what would you, what would be like an encouraging way for you to talk to someone that was in your position but nowadays?
Yeah, so I, I have a lot of practice doing and I've, I've worked, you know, adjacent to mental health in gender affirming care for a while now working with kids and, you know, there's this misconception that folks are just trying to, like shove gender transition on kids, get them to quote unquote mutilate their bodies and force hormones on all.
That's a myth that like, Um, in fact, getting a lot of those things you have to jump through a lot of hoops well work with kids or, or even young adults cuz you know, I work with folks of all ages.
Mm-hmm.
I get them to really think about, um, you know, with their gender, not so much having to earn it or prove it or justify it. Like, did you really feel this way when you were a kid? Or like, what exactly do you feel like now? And then I have my little, it's more. What frame, what lens, when you apply it to yourself, aids in yourself, understanding and your thriving, right? What helps you understand your past better?
So for me, when I look at my past and I see it through the lens of, oh, I was a young closeted trans kid being told that they were a cisgender kid, that makes so much sense of my experience. And then, does this label, does this frame or this lens help you navigate your.
Mm-hmm.
project into the future? When I think about my future as a man, it's like I can't do that. When I think about my future as whenever this thing is, this non-binary trans Am that I am now, that future seems exciting and bright, scary, um, for political reasons. You know, we've got a lot of targets helps, but I help them. I ask them to think like, what, what helps you make sense of your past, present, and your future in a way that's meaningful? Uplifting because it's so that's your label, right?
And you don't have to earn that label. I know some folks feel like they have to transition in order to be the gender that they feel they are. It's like, no honey, you already are that. You know, some girls have stubble, you know, lots of penises. That's okay. Lots of ways to be, lots of things.
Yeah. And it's, it's great to see that too because, I mean, I was listening to NPR a couple days ago and they had just released a new piece, a new piece, um, about the effects of gender reaffirming care on youth and how the positive mental health outcomes that are being seen through a lot of these things. And I felt on one hand, like they kind of, uh, misconstrued a little bit cuz they did play into. That rhetoric of, of talking about, um, actual transitioning through surgeries.
Uh, they didn't really touch too much on just the, the, the conversational side about allowing people to feel comfortable as themselves as much as they did on, on the hormone therapies and on and on surgery. So I love the fact that even bring that up, that like, look, it's way more about helping someone discover who they really are versus. Being like, oh, yes you are. You, uh, you know, we were born female and you identify as a male.
Let's go ahead and start you on hormones and let's go ahead and put you through a surgery. So I love, thank you for bringing that to light of, no, hey, this is not what it's about,
Yeah, I bet. So
automatically assume that.
what was that?
I'm sorry, I said, I think people just automatically assume that.
Oh do. Absolutely. Cuz that's like the main, uh, narrative that we see in the news and, you know, that stuff does happen. Um, so, you know, the, the thing you mentioned about npr, I bet that that was in reference to the recent study that was published last week, uh, of, of the time of this recording, um, in the New England Journal of Medicine. Uh,
exactly.
and I've read that article and it's good. And what it shows is that hormone therapy is one thing that can help reduce, um, distress and even suicidality amongst, uh, youth with gender dysphoria.
Hmm.
lots of things that can help, right? Hor hormone therapy is one piece of the puzzle and for a lot of folks necessary, I'm on it myself and I can say it changed my.
Yeah.
But also there's that reframe, there's that realization that you don't need the hormone therapy to be your gender. You already are. And what the hormone therapy does is it helps with the distress of the felt mismatch between your public perception and the way that you feel inside. Yeah.
which I think is so much more important honestly, to like if we're, if we're looking at it through that lens, you have the one side of people who are saying that you should feel or act or be a certain way. But the more important piece of that puzzle is how do you feel like yourself on the inside? Is this something that is allowing you to have your own personal expression, your own self-identity that creates the greatest outcome for yourself and your own? Your own feeling?
Like, to me that's so much more important than having, am I accepted by somebody else? Mm-hmm.
Exactly. Yeah. I always like to remind my clients, it's like, look, if someone misgenders you, they didn't invalidate you because they don't have the power to do that. Your identity is valid. Someone else getting it wrong doesn't take away from that. That's just them making a factual error. So someone comes up and calls me a boy. It's like, honey, yeah. You can say grass is pink and the moon is made of cheese. You can be. All it shows me is that you're out as a loop.
Yeah.
that I'm a boy doesn't make me more of one.
Yeah. No, I mean that's very true and unfortunately it kind of brings back what I was saying earlier is we end up allowing others to identify who we are versus us being our own individual. I mean, I think as far as. of course there's layers to it, right? There are women that are naturally feeling more masculine at times. There are men or like I, I will say I have my like much more masculine days and I have my much more feminine days.
Yep. And. It took me time to accept that and understand that I'm not being lazy because I feel more masculine, or I'm not trying to prove a point because I'm being more masculine. Like I'm allowed to interchange how I feel. And sometimes that is day-to-day, and sometimes that's moment to moments. Yeah. But that even took me into my thirties of understanding that, and I mean, I'm, I'm just queer. I don't have this struggle and, and so I'm not trying to.
Play into the struggles that other people have, but it's nice to know that there doesn't have to be this like black and white. Yeah.
Yet labels can be fluid because I see them as narrative devices that help us tell our stories. And you know, one of the questions I got when I first started transitioning was actually from my sister, who I loved dearly. We hated each other growing up, but now we're best friends. Yeah. And she asked me, What is the difference between who you are now and just being a gender nonconforming feminine man? And my answer was like, objectively, there's not much difference.
It's just this language that I'm using is the language that helps me make sense of my story. It's the language that helps me relate to myself and the world around me, right? So if that changes and I'm like, oh, actually I'm just a feminine man. That's the hat I'll wear.
But right now, like given my pest, given where I'm going, given the, the environment I'm in, thinking of myself as whatever this is non-binary transfeminine person, that's the language that helps me feel, um, unified in myself, helps me take all these different pieces and make sense of them. That can be completely fluid, you know.
Yeah. See, I I, I love that. I love it. It's not all about the objectivity, a person's own subjective experience is mm-hmm. a huge portion,
Yeah. Yeah. And the key though is that we, we make sure that we validate other people's if, uh, you know, their narrative devices, their, their lenses that they use, because there's a lot of policing of that, you know, and I find that a lot of folks will say that, you know, queer culture these days is very obsessed with labels. Well, honey, it's the cisgender heterosexual culture that's very obsessed with labels. It's like you're either this or you're that. You're either this or you're that.
Antigo camping, neither. It's like that is, that is what it is to take categorization as sacred.
Yeah. Yeah, that same community that that's, that wants to have like complete binary, simplistic terms so they don't have to put in the work to learn anything new.
Yeah.
get outside of your circle a little bit. Yeah, and that's something, and we, we talked about that even, even if we like look at it. In, in terms of, uh, of all relationship types and everything else. Mm-hmm. then it becomes like, how do people label themselves? So we, I think we've already said this before, is that we noticed that in our friends that we have that are a bit older, they stick to these very like binary black and white boxes of relationship styles.
And then our friends who are younger, every single, it's like every single person has a different label for their sexuality, for their relationship style, for all of it. And it's like there's this categories on subcategories on subcategor. All the way through, so
it's, it's a lot like music genres, you know, if you're into eating M or if you're into heavy metal, there's just all these nested genres that go way, way deep. Like, you know, when you first started to listen to metal, you might call like everything that's loud and free me death metal. But then you start to learn like, oh no, death metal and black. Not the same. Blacking, metal, deaf, black metal are not the.
But I think between when you start a band and you're like, I wanna be a def metal band, and then you can forward your sound to that like a rule versus just playing the music you wanna play and then realizing it's easy to call it def metal to communicate to other people cuz it's, it's like that.
Yeah.
using the genre as a tool for communication rather than as a rule to conform to think, if we think of labels and identities that way, it's so much more.
Yeah. And it's, for me, for me personally, I, I, it's interesting to hear whenever someone, whenever someone just pulls out all of their laundry list, it's like whenever I talk to somebody who is like, oh, I'm an md, plus a PhD, plus a LPC plus a yeah. I talk to somebody who's in a, their relationship or sexuality types and they have this laundry list of things behind. I'm like, wow, that's a very specific identity that you have.
Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I were going into the nitty gritty, I would say that I'm an or I'm a southly oriented aromantic asexual. Non-binary trans them who practices solo polyamory inform my relationship anarchy, but the shorthand is just some fucking queer.
Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yes. That's amazing. I absolutely love that. I love how comfortable you are in your, in your identity. It's, it's, it's inspiring. It really is.
Thank you.
So you, you went through these experiences, you know, all growing up. You've had negative feedback, you've had that. So let's go into a little bit about your, your educational background and where that journey has led you to presently.
Yeah, so you know, I mentioned I got my PhD in philosophy, and at the time I was writing about philosophy of language and philosophy of art and getting more into social construction and all those sorts of topics, but I didn't really dip my toe into the gender stuff. The sexuality stuff again, cause I didn't feel entitled to it. I felt like my voice would be, um, taking up space where it didn't belong. But I read and I read and I read sort of obsessively. Oh yeah, yeah.
clearly
even little bit a book fetish. Um, actually I should say more of a buying book fetish cuz I
There
claim to all of these that would be dishonor, but eventually, Eventually I started doing less cerebral and more embodied work, and I got really into yoga and I was doing my yoga teacher training. And it was through that more embodied contemplative work that my identity as a trans person, I just couldn't hold it in anymore. It was like, this is me. This is the narrative device I need to be using. And that led to a shift. A shift in a lot of things. It was a shift in academic.
Because now I, now I felt comfortable entering into discussion that I didn't feel comfortable entering into before, and also led into a shift in priorities.
A lot of folks will say that, you know, realizing that you're trans radicalizes you, and what we mean by that is bec when you're raised as a, as a man, especially a white man, and then suddenly you find yourself moving through the world as a trans. You learn a lot about privilege very, very quickly because people treat you differently, right?
And you start, I mean, when you look at the anti-trans rhetoric and you look at the targets that are on our backs, this stuff becomes not just an abstract political debate, but it becomes personal. It's a matter of survival.
yeah. Mm-hmm.
And as a result, I couldn't stay in academia anymore because academia moves at a snails pace. Any activism I could do, any advocacy I would do, would have to go. of sitting in peer review, hell at some journal somewhere, cuz the philosophy world moves slowly and the average academic paper is read by eight people.
Yeah.
You know? So that's when I shifted. I got tenure and I quit. Which is not the most common thing to do, but it was like, hey, did
were at tcu?
I was a T C L. Yeah, not, not the easiest place to be an out trans woman.
No. Yeah, you're going in, I mean, we're, we, are, we are Fort Worth, Texas locals here. Yes. So we, we can at least have some sort of sympathy towards the cause. I mean, we, we know plenty of, of how the, the, um, lgbtqia plus community is treated around, especially somewhere like, yeah, I worked in a salon right in the TCU area and me just having tattoos was taboo. I mean, And I was a hairdresser by tcu, you know, I was like, really?
But I got a lot of like looks and stares at Ridicule for the way that I looked, and it was just my appearance. It wasn't this inner turmoil feeling that I, I had as a human being. It was just, Tattoos and piercings. So yeah, I can definitely imagine what you kind of went through. Yeah, of course.
Unless, I mean, of course I have to, let's clarify, it's of course not everybody that does this, but the part of the course of the community that does really lash out, um, I mean, my opinion probably from their own insecurities, but the people that do lash out a lot of this. How, how do you felt like you, you handled a lot of those situations or how did those come about?
Well, I remember the very first day I walked in and told my students about my pronouns. It was on a first day of class and I was just like, yeah, you might have noticed if you've taken a class with me before, I look a little different this term and I'm using these pronouns now. Uh, you'll adjust. We will only talk about this again when necessary. Got it. Cool. Then we moved on, so I just didn't give the opportunity for pushback. Right.
of you.
Thank you. I, I get a lot of looks when I'm out in public. I take them as flattering and quickly, um, older men except the gens, octogenarians, who are I ever interpreted as them checking me out? They think I look good. comfortable with that? That's
you do
Thanks for the com. Thank you all Right? When I lived in Texas, I would always also carry a switchblade on my hip.
yeah.
you know, I live in New Mexico now where that's not legal. Uh, so I don't. yeah. You know, but it was, it was scary for a while. Um, I struggle with going into the bathroom in public because, you know, I'm a person who does, you know, if you can see me, I don't really fit into either gender category very easily. Like I'm very obviously assigned male at birth, but I'm wearing women's clothes. I sound like a boy, but I'll often carry myself in a more feminine.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm at risk no matter what bathroom I go into. So a lot of times, like when I was living in Texas, um, if I knew I was maybe gonna have to go to the bathroom, I would have to plan my outfit accordingly, right? Even just going to target, I'd have to change from my, the clothes I was wearing around the house cuz it was like, eh, if I have to pee, this is too risky.
Yeah, that's unfortunate.
Outside of those situations, um, I, you know, there aren't degrees of being trans. Like, it's not like, um, no one is more trans than anyone else, right? So I wanna acknowledge that before I say this. But when I see pushback legally, when I see, you know, political outcry about trans people, my response is I just get more fucking trans. Because I'm a very inex sense, very lucky, very fortunate person. Um, with a, with a good bit of privilege.
Um, I have a voice and I have a platform, so I'm gonna use that and utilize that to speak, even if it means putting myself at risk a little bit. Um, because the more I do that and the more people like me do that, the safer it becomes for the people who don't have those platforms, don't have those voices.
Mm-hmm. Hm. So I love that I have so much respect for just the fact of, like, especially for someone that went for that goes, you know what, I am a, a professor at Texas Christian University. I obtained tenure. I'm out I'm doing this for myself. I'm moving onward and upward. Mm-hmm. So you leave your, you leave your position as a, as an educator there to move to Las Cruces, New Mexico. Correct.
Well, so there was a gap there. So I left and I was working with this, uh, virtual mental health company, uh, as a virtual intensive outpatient company. And I worked with them to architect their LGBTQ i plus affirming care program. Did that for a couple years, got that program sustainable, um, which was always my goal, um, to get it designed, implemented, and in a sustainable position where I could pass the.
And now I work with a bunch of different organizations, um, sort of doing a lot of consulting. I have a coaching practice. I kind of see myself as self-employed, but just collaborating with lots of different entities. But it was that initial virtual work with that first organization that got me to a point where I could leave Texas, moved to Las Street, Mexico. I'd never been here before I moved here cuz it was the only place where I could find an apartment that would let me have all my animals.
Um, and I love it. Just resign my lease. It's so great here.
Oh, that's awesome. So with your, with your coaching and stuff that you offer, um, how would someone get ahold of you? Because I, I just, I really feel like people that are listening to this, they either fill them themselves or they know someone that feels this way. What would be the best way for to, to reach out to you?
Yeah, so I have a website. It's www.transcoaching.com. I also have an Instagram, which is trans sentience dot coaching. I have a Patreon, which you could get to at patreon.com/trans sentience. And ence is a word I came up with. You know, sentence is like ence, it's reflection, it's self-awareness. And trams is both, um, sort of beyond. And also it's the reference to transgender. So it's kind of this, this manup of words that also kind of sounds like transcendence. And I like all, all comes.
What I do at the coaching practice is, um, you know, it's informed by my certification as a sexologist. My background as an academic philosopher, uh, my certifications as you know, a therapeutic game master using role playing games, and also my mindfulness coaching, a whole bunch of things
Mm-hmm.
up into what I call a sort of affirming and adaptable amalgamation of philosophical explor. Neuro inclusive mindfulness, and by that I mean inclusive of folks, uh, with a D H D, autistic folks, and also contemplative embodiment practices for the sake of helping people with existential issues that come up around their gender, their sexuality, their relationship structures, and their sense of identity and authenticity. That's the elevator.
glad we have you. I'm so glad this girl has so lucky. I love it to help us throughout the way, man. Um, okay, so we're gonna, we're gonna change topics a little bit. We're gonna, um, get into really what I've been wanting to talk to you about. Um, Which is taking anyone in, into the, out of the vanilla lifestyle and into, uh, what it is that you do. So like, maybe briefly, let's tease what you do and then kind of going further to it.
So I am a practitioner, um, both in my personal life and professionally of B D S M, which is a subculture and set of practices centered around the exploration of the consensual risk aware exploration of our kinks and our fetishes and other sorts of non-standard heterosexual, but err. An intimate relational interests. I would like to say, you know, so I identify in terms of my sexual identity, I'm an asexual person and I'll do genital to genital contact with, with men, women, non-binary people.
I just, it's just not part of my practice. It's not part of how my energy exchanges tend to go both row a ager i'll, electro someone's tones. That's that's fulfilling. You know, rope, all those sorts of activities, even fire play, which is, let me tell you, um, you haven't lived till, you've had, uh, you know, your back lid on fire and you get to just lay under it, uh, for, for eight or so minutes. Of course there's a there between you and the fire.
Mm-hmm.
It's amazing. But there's a whole series of philosophies and practices and cultures that have formed around this, mostly out of need for.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
because this stuff practice in isolation outside of community, outside of these protocols can be really, really, really dangerous.
Hmm. Yes.
Yeah. So there's a lot of negotiation. There's a lot of discussion of risk and risk profiles, a lot of discussion of consent and very, very nuanced discussions of consent, um, that go far beyond what you might see in vanilla space ads, vanilla relat.
So how would one even try to have that conversation to, um, bring in, bring that lifestyle into their bedroom in the safest way possible, starting out?
Yeah, so first do the introspection and think about like what draws you to it. It's not obligatory, you know? So like if you're not kinky, that's okay.
Yes.
know, like you don't have to be, vanilla is a really, really good flavor. But if you do that reflection, you're like, no, I am interested in this. Right. And and the reason that reflection is important is cuz sometimes partners can pressure other partners into it and then you try to be kinky because someone wants you to be, but you're not. And that's not a good way to show up for either of you. But you know, there's resources out there. Of course there's the internet.
The problem with the internet is, It's really full of a lot of good stuff, but it's also really full of a lot of bad stuff. And until you have some experience under your belt, it can be hard to tell the difference. where community,
someone to telling the difference?
you can find community and mentors. And the places I recommend for that are local dungeons, where a dungeon is kind of like a mixture of a coffee shop or bar, but like usually without coffee. Um, and get right. So it'll have like all the furniture, like you'll have your St. Andrew's trash and your spanking badge and all this stuff. And there'll be little, little tables next to it with the cleaning material. Cuz just like at a gym, you wipe down your, your equipment when you're done with it.
Best practice. You also wipe it down before you get on it till they're like kinky community centers where people come together. There's often classes and then, you know, open. and you can get to know people, you can vet people, you can observe and kind of do little tastings.
Mm-hmm.
There's
kinda like figure out, like, go ahead.
no Go ahead. Yeah, help.
No. So to kind of just figure out what your interests are, because sometimes you don't know, and that exploration is kind of kinky in itself.
Absolutely. When I first started going to Dungeons, I thought that I was. The most submissive of submissives. I wanted someone to just tell me what to do and dictate every aspect of my behavior.
mm-hmm.
And then one day someone told me to flog them. So I did, you know, as a good little survey. And while I was flogging, I was like, oh, this is different.
Oh,
Yeah. And I learned something about myself. I was like, oh, I am the.
mm-hmm.
And I, you know, it was, and I discovered that by accident. I would never have sought that out on my own, but that was that evolution. Um, another place you can find resources, uh, are local, munch is, so a munch is like a community gathering, usually in a vanilla space of kinky people who go out kind of, um, not in, they're, they're not showing up where in their, their fetish, where they're showing up, where in their street.
and you typically keep the conversation kind of muted, but it'll be at a restaurant or a coffee shop, and it's a place to meet people in public, um, and to get integrated into a community and to feel it out. And that's really good for safety because if, if you log on to say fe life, which is like Facebook for kinky people,
yeah. Mm-hmm.
and you just meet someone who's like, Hey, let's meet up in private and play. It's like, oh, no honey, no, no, no, no,
huge red flag.
dread flag. The. Putting aside the inherent risk of that activity, but the fact that someone would propose that activity shows that they have no connection to a community, no relevant background, and that in itself is an extra risk.
Oh, for sure. So anyone listening, if someone offers that to you, say, no.
Yeah.
it's like reeducate. It's like reeducating being offered candy from a van. Like just equate the two.
Yeah. So, It can seem a little bit like, like if you wanna be kinky and start having kinky encounters, it's not gonna happen overnight. Um, and if it does, you're putting yourself at great risk. There's, there's a learning curve and there's a social process where you learn your community and you learn the protocols, but these are all there in order to keep you safe.
Mm-hmm.
might think like, oh, I don't wanna feel safe. I wanna live on the edge. I wanna be risky. That's part of my king. You build the safe container, which allows you to explore that edge within the larger container
Yeah. Oh, for sure. So it's like starting a gym for the first time. You're not gonna go immediately to the bench press and try to do 500, you know what I mean? You're like, no You gotta like ease into that. You gotta start to understand the gym and the lifestyle of it, and then you can incorporate and go further.
Absolutely. And I see a lot of folks who are like first timers and dungeons. They get very excited and they like, I
they like stand really close and like move slowly? I don't know what to do. Like, can you always tell a first timer?
there's a lot of that. Cause I think a lot of people, they walk into a dungeon and they expect, like, I'm gonna walk into, immediately someone in a GIT mask is gonna run up and peg me. That's not the reality of it. Well, but a lot of people, when they first start finding their footing, they can experience what's called fren.
Mm-hmm.
frenzy is where you usually see this with submissive. So it often gets called sub frenzy, but there's also top frenzy. It's where it's like you wanna try everything with everyone right now, and then that can co, that can compromise your consent because the excitement and the rash the high of having all of these options. Gets in your way of thinking through what your risk profile really is and you can get into some pretty shady situations.
Yeah. It's almost like you need like a big brother system for bringing someone into that, that, that community, you
Yeah, and a lot of communi. You know, the community itself kind of acts as that mentor. You go to like a one-on-one education class, or you go to a class, I mean, in the Dallas Fort Worth area. I've been to classes on red flags and relationships. I've been to classes on how to negotiate a scene with someone. I've been on classes, all sorts of stuff that are designed to help people learn and move into this risky behavior in a fully informed manner.
Okay. Well, let's see. I like that now, What? I mean, I wanna move from that into, so we're talking about all this, the kink, the world of bdsm, how this all works. I know that whenever a lot of our audience who do claim themselves as being more vanilla, but they are looking to. Open up a little bit. They tend to have that lens of not truly understanding how they can see bd s m um, and the light that you paint it to, and I, this I wanna really, really draw attention to this is, is gamifying
Yeah. Mm.
So could you, you talk to us a little bit about that? Because I know that anybody listening that is wanting to get into the world, it would be able to benefit. Altering their perspective on it in the first place in order to have a successful session. May it be with their, you know, monogamous partner or with partners or however they want to handle it.
Yeah, so I'm, I'm working on a book on this right now. It's on BDSM and the aesthetics of Gameplay, and it's reframing bdsm. Which is often thought of as rough, weird sex,
Yeah.
you know, and we can blame 50 Shades of Gray for that. A book that brought a lot of people seeking that into the community, which then made the community a lot less safe. Right? A lot of folks walking in thinking, I'm gonna be Christian Gray. And it's like, honey, no, you're not. Like, wait, were you? Um, but another way to approach. Like the lifestyle as a whole is not as just weird s but as a series of games and games have rules. Um, and games have procedures and games can be sexy.
Games can be hot, but not always. So I mentioned earlier, for example, you know, m asexual person, all of my kink is non-sexual. Well, it feels like gameplay. We negotiate the rules, we negotiate the boundaries and the limits, and. By negotiating those rules, it lets you take on a new kind of agency in that frame, right? It lets you become not just who you are, but a person under a persona. It's almost like a role play
yeah. Mm-hmm.
and that really lets you experience in a very safe container, but a very expansive container, all sorts of different experiences. So
how would, go ahead.
no go.
I was gonna say, so how would one even start that conversation? Like, how would you, you are, you're exploring a kinky, you know, what you want. Um, what are the best ways to kind of like lay that out to make sure that everything's kosher, consent's given everything's understood.
Yeah, so one, own your kinks. Having a kink is okay,
Mm-hmm.
right? Even having edge of your kinks is okay. Doesn't mean that every action associated with all of them is gonna be okay. but is it risk aware and involve full consent, informed consent, freely given consent?
yeah. Mm-hmm.
conversation first. Have the conversation about consent and think about shame and think about, you know, not everyone's kinks come from weird trauma. Some people are, are afraid to admit their kinks cuz they're worried about what we'll say about them. Someone tells me they have. A caregiver kink where it's a caregiver and little relationship. It used to be called like daddy and Little Girl, but now has kind of moved away into other terminology.
Um, that doesn't mean you had a traumatic childhood. All it tells me is that you kink
right.
there, there's no discernible connection between kink control.
Right. And that's such an important thing to draw attention to. how many times we've talked with people who are like, oh, I feel like if I have an impact play kink, that it means that I was abused whenever I was younger or if I had, like, depending on what the kink is, it's, it speaks something to your, to your past.
That's why we draw such attention to, uh, partners exploring their sexual narratives, like what, how they built their world views around sex in the first place in order to better understand their kinks a little bit and border in order to be able to express to each other like what they.
Absolutely. And you know, research suggests that people who explore bdsm, um, they score within normal ranges on things like attachment styles. They actually report higher quality of life and might be more disposed toward, um, being able to practice things like mindfulness, non-judgemental awareness of the relation between the mind, the body, and the environment. Contrary to common narratives. Um, p d sm can be a source of flourishing.
It can be a source of real wellbeing, but we wanna educate ourselves on all of that. And then one thing you can do is make a list of things that you want. Try things. You definitely wanna try, things you don't wanna try, and things you maybe wanna try. Have your partner or partners we're the same. And then compare lists, see what the overlap is, and then, you know, if, if one of your yeses is one of their, no. that's a discussion, but it's a discussion where you don't want to coerce each other.
It's more like, how do we build this incompatibility? I'm really into knife play. That's a hard limit for you.
Mm-hmm.
How are we gonna navigate that incompatibility? I'm not gonna coerce you to like it. Nope.
Yeah.
Well, you find your areas of overlap and then you go towards something that's appropriate for your skill level. A lot of people initially are really drawn to.
Mm-hmm.
rope, spot rope is amazing. Rope is dangerous. And if you won't know what you're doing, if you just go out and buy some rope and start tying people up, you can risk nerve damage. You can risk, uh, losing a limb. You can, if you try to suspend someone without knowing how to suspend them, they can fall and die. Um,
Mm.
so I recommend starting off with some of the easier kinks. Role play is a great one because it's actually doesn't require any.
Mm-hmm.
can role playing power dynamics and roleplaying, different scenarios. Uh, just after negotiating what it's gonna look like. Another one, um, you know, light impact, you know, before you start doing heavy flogging or breaking out bull whips. You want some training, lightning or something like that. Um, also wax is a really good one though. You wanna do your search on the appropriate wax, cuz some waxes burn much hotter than. And they'll do more damage than you're looking for. Um, but you know,
actually have, oh dang, She's looking around. We have one and well, it's made for dildos are Foley. It's
Helen
She's destroying the set. Does everybody remain calm?
reading the, well,
See, like these, these are perfect
are great starter camels, you know, and I, for folks who are maybe un partner, Uh, you can explore a lot of this stuff with yourself too. You don't need a partner to explore wax. One of my greatest experiences, um, over the last couple years was putting on some good music, burning, some intenses, turning up the lights, and then just doing wax play on myself. Uh, and I went through a whole box of those candles. Um, I would, there was a. Just be prepared for the cleanup cuz cleanup on wax. Tricky.
That stuff will clog your drains, so.
Good to know. Right. So don't be, yeah. Don't always hop in the shower Yeah. Right. No, that's, that's interesting because that allows you, I, I love that because it, not only does that allow you to, um, Explore yourself. You know, we talk about this with masturbation, right? Explore yourself first. Find out what feels good to you, what works, what doesn't work, and then communicate that with your partner or partners. Same thing whenever it comes to any of this stuff.
Find out what works for you. So the fact that like that enters into the conversation of, Hey, look, it's okay. It's normal. It's fine. This is what you're into. Explore it a little bit with yourself. Explore with some temperature. Play with some pressure, play with different things that you can, you can do to help figure out what it is that you like and it allows you to better communicate with your.
yeah, absolutely. And on that communication part of negotiation is, um, you need to have safe words in place. You're right. No safe word. It's not bdsm. Um, you know, cause
Yeah.
I'm of the opinion that without safe words, um, like consenting without a safe word is really, it's really su.
Yeah.
Um, and I personally, I like to use a system. It's pretty standard, um, in a lot of BDSM spaces like Dungeons, which is the, the traffic light system, uh, is a bad, safe word.
Yeah.
Yelling, stop. Because for some people, stop means go. Right?
right? Mm-hmm.
Um, now of course I wanna be very careful at what I said in vanilla spaces. Stop means stop.
Yeah. Yes.
So if you're out out at a bar and someone says, stop. And you don't stop, you should get your ass beat, right? There's someone violence, right? I'm a Buddhist, but, in kinks situations, stop is a risky, safe.
Mm-hmm.
So instead, we'll often use the traffic light system red. Someone says, red is over.
Mm-hmm. Quit what you're doing.
yep. Yep. And if you're in public and someone is crying red and that tap is not ending the scene, that is reason for other people in the space to go intervene.
Mm.
And I've seen this happen where someone has yelled red, the top hasn't stopped, and then a dungeon monitor or someone else who's keeping on space has to go in and be like, you're done.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
There's yellow. Yellow means, uh, pump the brakes. Yellow means slow down,
Mm-hmm.
green means go.
yeah.
Now you wanna still have conversations because there's even nuance in those. So green, for some people I play with means keep going. For other people, green means turn it up.
Okay.
Those are different, right? Yellow for people means ease up a little For other people, yellow means let's pause and check in.
Yeah.
wanna have those conversations. And for some people I've heard as an alternative to red, some people use. So if you're doing some edgier kinks that might be, um, getting you into territory that has been traumatic for you in the past, like let's say you're exploring consensual non-consent or something like that, or even impact,
mm-hmm. Okay.
you might pre-negotiate, Hey, if I have a traumatic response, if I get activated, um, make me this cup of. We're gonna go to this corner. You're gonna get this blanket and you're gonna use words to me that's different from a red, which is
Yeah.
cost, right? So you can pre-negotiate that and then use blue for that. Blue is we're going to onto this trauma protocol now.
Okay. So almost like as, as we have, you know, aftercare, once scenes are done, this, this is along the lines of like, this is a preset protocol that is a divergence away from the entire scene. I'm not in a good place and we need to ground me back to reality. Yeah,
And maybe not just shift to aftercare, but this particular kind of aftercare that is designed for this, this variety of
Yeah. And say I love that. Go ahead. We, we love talking at the same time, and we do it so well.
Yeah.
I know
Important,
Mm-hmm.
If, if someone won't, if someone's like, I don't do aftercare, they're on my no list, I won't play with.
Yeah.
because SubD drop is a real thing. SubD drop, you know, BDSM and King, all these activities, this releases chemicals in your brain. Uh, and it can, in a sense get you high. And the comedown from that can be very difficult, especially if the person you're playing with just discards you afterwards.
right? Yeah.
Cuz then the next day you might feel like absolute shit. You might feel un worried and you might feel shame. So having after. Where you ease into that come down. And for me, aftercare isn't just the cuddling afterwards, but it's the next couple days of checking in, sending, giving a phone call, sending a text, being like, how do you feel? Is there anything about the scene you wanna process? If you're not prepared to do that, hold off until you are.
Yeah. I love that level of communication because, I mean, Casey and I have played before plenty of times, and we had always just had a safe word, but to categorize it out and in such a way that allows play to, I feel like be more fluid. and, and almost just have those like key boundaries a little bit more like set in stone or knowing when to back off or, or do more, you know what I mean? Like we are definitely going to start using the color system. Oh yeah, for sure.
We, we've had like, I think we've shared this in the past, is that we've had, whenever we were earlier on in kind of doing this exploration and figuring out what we liked and what we. We had a point where I was doing restraint on Carrie with her, I think it was like your wrist. Yeah. And there was a very emotional triggering response to it that we had to like pull back real quick and go, whoa, what's going on? Luckily we were in, you know, we have a good relationship.
So it wasn't, it wasn't anything that was like, Shut up. We're keep going. Yeah. And, and it was very much like, let's stop, let's, let's take a step back. Yeah. And you did aftercare without even realizing that you were technically doing aftercare. Um, but yeah, it was kind of shocking for me even to be like, why did I go from being like, yeah, so why am I crying Like, why did this happen? You know? And, and I think that like, that did give us really, really good insight.
But also something that we haven't fully touched on yet is the bond that can be created. Through this like kink experience or through Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, talk about like truly understanding the partner or, uh, the partner, the partners that you're with. I almost feel like there's no better connection or deeper connection, you know?
absolutely. The, the more you preplan this container, you are exploring the nooks and crannies of each other's psychology at a very deep level. And then when you build that container, You have so much freedom within it because now you know what the boundaries are.
Mm-hmm.
limits, which means that you know how you can move in there and you get to see someone in a much more uninhibited, direct, immediate way, and that's powerful.
Hm. That is powerful, isn't it,
Yeah.
such a, what's a great topic to end on? This is amazing, right? I mean, it's just, it's, it's shedding light in, in a way that people are just not fully seeing it or didn't know to see it.
And, and that's again, that was one of the main reasons we really wanted to have you on, is to kind of like bridge that gap a little bit between people that are maybe even not vanilla, but are wanting to really gravitate to more towards that, or maybe are going to start experimenting and now they're gonna use a light system because they heard you talk about it today. So you're saving lives. Lee, you're, you're saving lives.
you and it's okay.
and physically.
And again, if someone like does this exploration, it turns out they're just vanilla or it turns out they're vanilla with sprinkles, that's okay too. Yeah,
right. That's, and that's the big message to get across, right, is that there's, there's so, so many shades. That you can fall into so many. So finding out where you're comfortable, like we've already discussed is, is paramount in having these successful kink relationships.
Uh, it doesn't matter if your relationship is brand new or if you've been together for years and years and years and y'all are looking for something like that next step and you're finally like, ready and you wanna jump in, uh, take these things that Leah's just talked about here mm-hmm. and really, really take 'em. and use them, like leverage them to create a successful bedroom life or anywhere else you might find yourself exploring the world of kink. So, yeah.
Well, with that, like Lee, thank you for coming on the show today. Uh, we are certain anyone that listens is gonna benefit from everything that you've just told us. Um, before we go, like how can people find you online? Let's talk social media, uh, email, anything that you might wanna share.
Yeah, so there's that Transcend ence, I can't even say it. Coaching website. Um, and uh, Instagram ions dot coaching and, uh, all of the links that you would want. To get to things like the Patreon, all of it all available on my link tree there.
Awesome. Well, sweet. For, for another, for another interview episode of Come With kc. I'm Dr. Casey Sanders. And I'm Carrie Sanders Lee, thanks again for having us and we will see everyone next time.