All right, well welcome back to the interview room here at, come with Casey. As always, we are your hosts. I'm Dr. Casey Sanders. And I'm Carrie Sanders. And we have a very special episode for you guys today. I feel like I see this every time you
kind of do like, but I, but they are, but you do. They are.
All of these episodes in some way, shape, or form are special to us. So, um, today our topic is going to be. Something known as E N M or Ethical non-monogamy. We've talked about polyamory before. Mm-hmm. Which is it's, we'll get to the whole umbrella term. We'll get to all of these things that trickle down into the various types. But I wanna take a second first to introduce our very special guests. Today we have CJ and Linwood. Welcome to the show, guys.
Hi. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Yeah.
now we, we have with us today these two who are in, uh, who have been traditionally, how long have y'all been together?
Seven years. Seven years.
And y'all are in, uh, in an e and m relationship? Correct. Okay. So what I wanna do is take a quick second for, for cj. I want you to tell me a little bit about yourself. Um, what it is that you do and how you got into this world of e and m.
Hmm. Thank you Casey. Um, so hi, I'm cj. I am a sex and King coach, and I work with people just breaking down shame around their sexual preferences and expressions. And, um, Linwood and I met online. Seven years ago and started a conversation. It was, um, based on a common interest in kink. Mm-hmm. And, um, From that point forward, we talked quite a bit and ended up developing a relationship long distance. He was in another country and we didn't meet each other for several months.
Um, but when we decided to commit to one another in a relationship, we, uh, talked about doing a non-monogamous style.
Hmm.
Um, in fact, that was one of Linn's, um, non-negotiables. Yes, that's right. And not that I'm a playboy or anything, but it was just like, I'm not interested in being monogamous. And I
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
cool. So, um, that was something that I was already familiar with in being in the lifestyle, but also, um, having been in a previous relationship where we were kind of leading into that. But unbeknownst to me, my partner started doing it without me, which I don't call
that's a no no.
That's cheating.
That's a no no.
That's a no no. Please don't do that. Um, especially with someone who's like super open-minded. Mm-hmm. And like already headed in that direction, it was like, why did you do that?
Yeah.
So anyway, it brought us together. Here we are. And now we're married. We just got married a month ago and Lin Wood's living in south of me, and
Yay. Congratulations.
thank you very much. Thank you very much. It was our one month anniversary yesterday. Mm-hmm.
Oh, okay. How'd y'all celebrate?
Oh yeah. How did we celebrate? Well, we actually, we are doing a, uh, every month on the day of our wedding, we are going to a different architectural site or place in la or greater Los Angeles, and we're taking photographs. So yesterday it was at Randy's, and we can send you a photograph. It's hilarious. Randy's Donuts. Randy's
Randy's done. Okay.
standing in front of the Randy's donut building on the busy street. In our wedding clothes. In our wedding clothes.
that's awesome. Oh, that
elevated it so much more.
Yeah. So we're doing that
that
a month.
Okay. So Ev, every month y'all have this planned out where you're going out in different architectural sites, little
yeah, yeah,
you can in LA that's a, are you gonna be in
wedding attire every time?
yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
The only thing that's changing is I'm wearing a different tie.
Okay. There it is.
All right.
So if you've got a keen eye, you'll go, oh, it wasn't all on the same day.
Yeah, a bunch of photographs. You can take it, toss it into a calendar for next year. Right. Flipping through
a great idea. There's a marketing, I'm not sure anyone would wanna buy it, but anyway, it'll be
people wanna buy anything these days. I wouldn't put it past anyone to purchase that. Right?
we'll
So then, all right, so let's, let's move on to this, this whole topic about ethical, no monogamy. Now, a a lot of our listeners are, um, just transitioning into being more open-minded, not necessarily becoming no monogamous, but they're trying to broaden their sexual horizons, whether that be with a partner or with partners, or however they see fit. So, ta take a second. I would love to hear from.
Each of you about kind of what ethical non-monogamy means to you and why it is you, you feel like it's such a, a, such a chosen and an inherent part of, of your relationships.
Which me?
question, babe.
Yes, I'm short question. Let's see. I think I'm coming at it is, um, after having been in a monogamous marriage and having a couple of kids, um, I realized that my sexuality was very important to me and not something that I was willing to compromise on, and part of that expression for me is being pansexual
Hmm.
It doesn't mean that every person who's bi or pansexual needs to have experiences with the same sex or the opposite sex, but for me, I felt like why do I, once I was divorced, you know, I don't need to limit myself to just having one sex partner. So that was part of it for me. That was sort of like the lead in. And then kink also sort of broadened my. My view on what sexual expression can be and what is important to me. So that's kind of how I came at it.
And for me, honesty is something that, um, is crucial in terms of relationships and just being very open, having communication, not being shamed. I think that's one of the main things for people when they start this conversation is. Please do not shame your partner. That will just put them in the shadows and they're not going to communicate with you. I don't care what the topic is. STIs, um, kink fetishes, you know, um, Republic.
You know, say, um, wanting same sex experiences, whatever it is, we really have to keep ourselves in check in terms of shaming the people that we love, because we're not going to get their communication. We're not gonna get their full true self if we shame them. Right? Yeah.
percent. That, that is one of the biggest things that we, we talk about to a lot of our listeners that we talk about to a lot of our clients, to anybody that we can. Mm-hmm. Is that if you can approach the conversation in an open-minded and non-judgmental way with the overall goal of growing and coming together mm-hmm. Like you're, you, you open up a whole new world and that does allow you access to some of the deepest and most vulnerable layers of a partner or partners.
Yes. True. That's That's where the true intimacy begins. Yeah. Right. You might not be able to provide everything for that partner, but just you get insight into like what? Is a turn on for them or what's important to them and it just brings you closer I think. So what did, how about for you, like what was, um, I was in a 26 year marriage and it ended up slowly declining in terms of not so much the intimacy of, of, of partnership and love. It was more about.
Uh, touching sexuality, things like that, and we were. I think terribly mismatched. And so the relationship slowly fell apart in that space. And one of the things, um, reflecting back on that was my partner's inability to see anything else but a very black and white situation. So the fact that she wasn't particularly demanding in the sexual space meant that I had to be the same. So it was this. Like this is how I think and feel. So that's what you have to do.
And, you know, and I buried my sexuality constantly thinking, well, one day she'll go, yay, let's do it.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
but that never occurred. So, um, it was finally a, a parting of ways. And then when I, um, met up with Carmen online, there was discussions around all of that thing, and particularly being in another country. Like Australia, um, with the Pacific Ocean between us, it was, it was a conversation constantly, you
Mm-hmm.
just talking, texting, you know, and we had a lot of time before meeting up, um, to decipher those different parts of what we wanted out of something that was, we were gonna create that was new. Um, so yeah. Yeah, it slowed us down, you know? Yeah. For two people that have, um, pretty. Vigorous libidos and desires. Um, I think in the past for me it's been like, oh, you end up with somebody because of that need to be sexual together. And then it's like, wait a minute, backtrack.
Like, we haven't really talked about this. Like we're, you know, we're both coming from, but we had months to sort of work through all of that. Yeah. And really determine if there was like a. A baseline of like, Desire and, and wants, you know, on both sides that clicked. And that's part of the, you know, we're older, we're in our fifties.
You know, that's one of the benefits of like having had experiences or a previous marriage is like you realize what you're into and what's important to you in. Your intimate life, so it, you can kind of design things a little bit differently. I, I'm not saying that younger people can't do that. I think that's like super important, you know, that people like think about these things and have these conversations before they commit. In monogamous relationships or otherwise.
Um, but yeah, we decided from the get-go that e n M was gonna be our relationship style. Yeah. And she didn't worry about my walker because of my age, so that was really good. I'm really into it actually. Yeah,
I was about to
say, that kinda sounds like
those slow wheels turning Oh yeah. Well that, you know, there could, Hey, who knows? You can eroticize so many things mm-hmm. That you know as.
plenty of age play kinks. Oh yeah. You can, you can throw out anything. Nothing's off the table in a lot of things, but it's, it's so interesting that you bring that up because there's, there's such a, uh, a preachable moment like, and I'm, I will use that word, preachable moment to couples that. First getting together that do not have conversations based around sex and intimacy. Like they, they, it's almost as if they, well, it is what it is.
The sexual education system is so busted in the United States. Mm-hmm. That we don't, we're told that it's almost shameful to have those conversations that you, you just kind of explore each other and get to know each other in that way as time goes on and they prioritize things like, what's your favorite color over, what are your sexual desires? So if
that's very true.
If we can alter that mindset and allow people to start to see, hey, these sexual conversations around desire, around intimacy, what are the things that you're into? What do you want to achieve, um, on, on an, on an intimate level with this person? And bring that to the forefront of the conversation. And a lot of it, you would create so much better relationships.
And, and you would find that relationships maybe didn't work because you came out early on and had that communication. Like, I don't wanna waste eight years with someone to find out that they're never gonna give me anal. Like, I'm sorry that was a waste. If we can go through and like have these conversations earlier on in those like pre stages, I think it would l kind of separate out these like breakups way later on because we weren't trained to have these conversations beforehand.
Yeah. Yeah. It's, I think, sorry. Yeah, it's that, it's that social myth process, you know, it's a bit bit like the Disney. Stories. Mm. The way they're told about, you know, love is something that you connect, you know, you rise meet and it's all sparks and the way you go and there's no need to have a conversation. Cause apparently the universe has brought you together. Right. And it's going to be perfect. And there's that whole romantic myth process,
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
know, written into hundreds of years of romantic novels and so forth and so on.
Huh?
Yeah. And I think an important. Question to ask is, at the start of a relationship, if you do decide on monogamy, what does monogamy monogamy mean to you?
Yeah.
Because even if you're choosing monogamy, what does that mean? Like that you're not allowed to watch porn? That you're not allowed to masturbate, that masturbation is cheating. There are people who believe that
Mm-hmm. Yep.
sadly, and that to me is, is a problem.
I agree.
you need to like work through those things initially. And sadly, it's not just sex education, it's. It's being curious. It's just being able to communicate and ask questions and really get to what is someone's authentic, authentic, sell for their nature. But, We don't always know what our preferences are, what our kinks might be, what, what kind of explorations we might want in 10 years. Exactly.
But let's have like an initial open conversation to even test the waters in terms of how open-minded that person is.
Sure. Yeah.
Right. Because we're fluid beans. We
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
you know, I didn't act on my, you know, But, um, bisexual desires until I was in my forties. You know, it wasn't something that was that important to me back in my twenties and thirties, but now it is. So, um, I think that we just need to keep in mind that because someone's interests, preferences, kinks, whatever might change, it doesn't mean that they love you any less, per se. It's just. want to experiment, they wanna try something new.
And like how do we, rather than seeing that as like a personal, uh, sort of rejection or attack, how do we open up and say, tell me more about that. Like,
Yeah.
And I have a part in that, or I really want that for you. You know, just seeing your partner, being able to, um, explore something new can be such a rewarding thing. Even if you're not involved, just to see like how they grow and change and you know, what they bring home to you might be even better than it has been. Um, fundamentally, uh, I think you're dealing with people's insecurities
Mm-hmm.
and that's probably, you know, the deepest problem with any sort of relationship that you construct over your lifetime is learning. Yeah. Is learning that. Just because you don't share a particular thing with someone you, you love, doesn't mean that that can't, you know, still play out for them and for you. Whatever that may be. And and controlling that sense of insecurity through jealousy and
Mm-hmm.
so forth isn't, and, and the funny thing is, culturally we always see jealousy as positive. Positive. You know that? Yeah, exactly. That thing about, oh, he loves me because he's jealous whenever I talk to my male friend or something. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And I a absolutely see that as unhealthy. You know, I don't, I don't think that's a display of love. That's a display of insecurity and, and selfishness and
Yeah, we have that fine line between jealousy and envy. Right? And that's what, that's one of the things that we, we've talked about is the fact that some people might be feeling that they're, they're jealous. You know, their insecurities are coming out, they're feeling jealous when in reality they're just, Possibly envious of what is going on in the, what their partner's seeing. Mm-hmm. We've talked about like sexual experiences that we've had in terms of bringing other people in the bedroom.
Mm-hmm. Or anything like that. And I remember one of the big ones that stuck out for both of us was like seeing or, or hearing or whatever it is, our partner, um, receive pleasure. Formed someone else that was not us originally. Like the first time that that happened, like breaking the ice on that and, and trying to process the emotions that came along with it in a way that was productive to the relationship.
Well, and what was Beauti beautiful about all that too is, Like, and I like, I feel like I know the example you're talking about too. Seeing a woman ride your face for the first time was a little like, okay, we're gonna let that happen. And it took growth like on me to see that, to be okay with it, to understand that consent was given all the way around, and then what ended up happening the next.
Day we communicated, we did our check-in, we do check-ins often, and it's just to see like, how did you feel about that moment? Yeah, what were, what was something that we could have altered or we could have changed, but what happens every single time is we grow then. We come closer and people ask, I, a lot of our friends are like, y'all are crazy. We can't believe y'all are going through this opening up like concept and y'all are going on dates. Like, I can't believe y'all do that.
But what they're not seeing is the other side of it is when we do get to come back together and the intimacy that we share is stronger than any intimacy we've ever shared in the 14 years that we've been together. Yep.
Yes, exactly. That's the key. And like how do you explain that to someone who can't get beyond? Like, aren't you jealous? Aren't you jealous? Aren't you jealous? And it's like, you have no idea, like the growth that occurs through this process now. There's a lot of messed up ways of doing it, right? There's a lot of hurtful things that occur and people are, you know, create problems for themselves, you know, navigating this, this sphere.
Mm-hmm. Well, then real, real quick, if you, if you don't mind me, like kind of interrupting just for a second, would you mind diving into that a little bit, a little bit more? So you say that there's, there's things that, that create, you know, turmoil in some of these. What would be some of the big, like, I mean we would call 'em red flags, but what would be some of the big, big like warning signs to watch out for if you are navigating this process?
Yeah. I think for some people it's probably a matter of like, it might be something that they've been thinking about for a while. I. Or educating themselves on, or listening to podcasts or whatever. And they might be at a different place than their partner.
Oh
haven't included the partner yet. They're not like sort of dropping hints and then all of a sudden it's like they're ready to go and they haven't given their partner a heads up. So that can be a little bit jarring for
Mm-hmm.
and it just, Try to be sensitive in terms of like where your partner might be. Like, start slowly. Do not expect that all the things are going to happen, all, you know, next week or something. You know, it's like you're not gonna get on an app and like have that threesome tomorrow, like
Yeah.
Correct. It takes time and you don't want to, you don't wanna, I promise you.
Yeah. Like you're, like your body's like, but you know, if, if you're in a relationship that you value, take it a step at, at a time. There's so many resources out there,
Mm-hmm.
your podcast. Books, tons of books that are available. There's, you know, they've been out forever. There's Open Monogamy, which is a new book. There is Open Deeply, also a newer book. Um, more than two. All of these types of resources that are out there. Mm-hmm. Um, There's forums online, there's so many different ways to do non-monogamy as well. Right. So, you know, you can take it slowly. There's meetup groups in all across the country. You can find meetup groups for non-monogamy.
There's sex positive, um, organizations that do education, that have classes that are, you know, just getting to know people in a casual setting, not a sexually like, Charge setting, do
And I. And I, yeah. I think that's one of the biggest recommendations that we give people is like, you have to put yourself in that environment. Yeah. And you want to, because it educates you. And you're also finding like, like-minded individuals. So we're not with our friends that are like, Ugh, why do y'all do that? We're with, people are like, oh, cool, you did that. Yeah. And kind of changing that narrative helped. Us a lot and yeah. I love that you say that.
Find a community because it, it's not, I don't wanna say it makes it feel normal. No. It just makes it accepting and you get to share and it's just a much better experience when you get to find those like-minded people. For
sure. Yeah. We, we personally, we purposefully go out, seek out and engage and grow our social circles mm-hmm. Based around the things that we want. It's one of the things we talk about to people who are saying, you know, if we've met a couple that says, you know, we want to open up a little bit, and it is, you know, the most popular one that I've seen at least, and that it would be the traditionally monogamous couple.
Opening up and looking to have like their first threesome or their first maybe soft swap or whatever it may be. Mm-hmm. And they're like, well, we don't know how to find anybody. And the only thing they're doing is like maybe getting on like field or you know, by cupid or something and trying to figure that out. And our first, first piece of advice to all of them is to, you have to find the social circle first. Stop going out and looking for. Penetrative sex right out the gate.
Go find people Yeah. Who are also into this lifestyle, who can, uh, you know, maybe you can have conversations with, get to know and, and expand your social circle before you try to dive in to the deep end of this whole thing.
Yes. So true. And it gives you that, it gives you that community to tap into with people with experiences that you yet haven't. You know, uncovered so you get some sort of feedback. Even if these people that you go to at a particular social event not, might not be the people you want to be with in a physical sense. Right. But it's their experience and understanding of the situation and that you're new and they can talk about their experiences. You know, it's just a wonderful Yeah. Collective.
Well, and one thing that this community does the best is consent. I feel safe. And I've never, I'm, I feel the complete opposite than I thought I would. I have never felt more safe in an environment and in a community because the way that y'all preach and praise consent is like, has been my biggest eyeopening and in It's so important.
Yeah, I think that's not a blanket thing though. Let's be honest,
Yes.
I haven't experienced this. Well, maybe a little bit, but not, I'm thinking of stories that I've heard and in the lifestyle in swinging where like consent is like, just like you've given consent cuz you've walked in the door.
Yes. We've heard that's a popular notion at a certain Yeah. Few clubs, uh, a around that, that we've heard of where we've inquired about like, oh, what about this club? And they're like, eh, they're like, be careful. Same way, because the people are assuming that it's consent just because you're there.
Exactly.
we, we have, we have been,
well, we don't go to those clubs.
Right, but, but a lot of people do as their first experience and then they might, there might be a violation that's like really devastating. So it doesn't mean that it's all fun in games and that everyone is educated and careful and cares about consent. You have to feel strong in your boundaries, right? You have to know like how you are going to practice safer sex. You have to be in agreement. You know, in terms of like fluid bonding or anything like that.
Those conversations need to be had, and you need to stick to those agreements because the students, you let go of something, that's when you're gonna start to have problems, right? If like, let's say, Condoms across the board for, you know, uh, maybe even for oral and otherwise penetrative sex, you know, and like some, the, one of the people doesn't do that, that could cause a problem later on.
But yeah, like, Part of the education in engaging in the network is learning those things and practicing those things. There's a wonderful organization called Sex Positive World, and we just did this yesterday. Um, we did a consent, um, Uh, and boundaries practice for three hours online. It's a great resource because it, it's actually, and this is something that I do in my coaching as well, is work with practicing, out what you want, asking for it.
And being able to accept someone's boundary and their no and like understand that their no is not about you. It's about them just protecting themselves and what they want. And also being able, for me, I still have this after years of engaging in this lifestyle and community, sometimes it's hard for me to just say no. And there's a lot of. Biological and other
Mm-hmm.
you know, why that occurs. So I find that I, it's something that I constantly need to practice, but these are kind of like starting points for me. Like you said, the consent boundaries and really even understanding what to ask for and how to say no.
Hmm. Yeah, that's, that's a big one that we, we do a lot of discussion in, uh, and we, we understand there's a number of circles that are centered solely around like learning how to accept no, learning how to, um, accept yes. Mm-hmm. I am learning how to, how to say, you know, no, when you actually mean no. And how to avoid any sort of confusion in it and being super clear. Super clear
every time. Mm-hmm.
Super clear because we don't wanna hurt people's feelings, right? That's if you're a people pleaser or whatever. Or if you are a person who might feel unsafe, let's say for instance, it's not always the case, but for women sometimes it's hard to say no to men because we we're afraid that they're gonna react. We're afraid that, I think it was Dan Savage said this, he said that men. Men's biggest fear is being laughed at by a woman, and women's greatest fear is being killed by a man.
Yeah.
Like that's pretty intense. Like if you think about it, and it might not even be something that you're conscious of. It's biological. Right. So if I'm saying no to a man and he takes it as I am putting him down or laughing at him, you know, it, it could be a, a dangerous situation. So how do we undo those biological and social things that
Mm-hmm.
You know, it's through these conversations and through practice. Yeah. And avoiding those particular places where you might go to some sort of, you know, party or whatever, where there might be a number of predatory people, regardless of whether they're male or female, and just trying to avoid those spaces, particularly in the early days when you're really trying to hone down
Mm-hmm.
The space you both want to be in. So have each other's backs. Yeah,
Yeah. Go in. Go in his unit.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.
So we're going to go ahead and like flip gears a little bit and I wanna dive into your like kink coaching.
Yeah.
Very intrigued by this,
Okay.
so, so what do you do? I mean, I mean, what e, explain this for our vanilla audience. What is a kink coach,
Okay, so a keep coach is somebody who will work with people who have sort of. I don't wanna say, uh, abnormal but unusual or thought to be unusual preferences. Okay. Or maybe interests and society might judge them there. There might be a religious background where they're judged. Their partner might have said something shaming, and they try to hide those things. They try, try to hide their authentic sexual self.
Um, I work with people to provide a safe space where they can talk about whatever it is. Right. It doesn't really matter. It's not something that maybe they have chosen. It's just who they are. And I coach people, um, in a way that is very open-minded and just, um, allowing them to heal in working through that shame. And then also potentially having. An outlet for exploring that.
Um, I also work as a phone sex operator, so I have an experience in working with people online through some of their fantasies.
Oh, cool.
Yeah.
So do you kind of like guide people towards fantasies or are they coming to you and saying, I have this fantasy, I wanna talk about it. Or both, I
don't wanna guide people in unless that's something that they want. And as, uh, a person who identifies as a mistress or a female dominant, uh, in my fun sex work, that might be something that I end up doing just because that's what they want.
Yeah. Okay.
no, I'm here to listen to, you know, what it is that you're into. And how you might actually integrate that into your life.
Mm-hmm.
it's just through something like phone sex, maybe it's through porn, whatever it is. How can you scratch that itch without upsetting the whole apple cartt? Or maybe at some point it is so important to you that you need to have conversations with your partner and figure out how that's gonna work in your relationship. Um, but then also like, Sort of a more advanced thing would be being able to work through that with me in sort of a guided kink experience online.
I love that.
Yeah.
So is you have all these people that, that, that come to you say, I have, I have a kink. I, I love the fact that you draw attention to one of the most important aspects of it, and that's that so many people think that whatever their, their kink is, is this. Like out there, abnormal thing. Yeah. And they have no idea, just the amount of people that are into the same thing that they're into.
But they have this, they've built this sexual narrative over so many years centered around shame and centered around being told that this is a, this is abnormal and not okay. That now they just don't talk about it. So like how, how does, how's that experience for you whenever they come to you and you're able to like kind of. Open them up a little bit and guide them into thinking, oh, this is okay for me to do and, and this is something I wanna explore further.
It's just such, um, I feel really honored when people feel comfortable enough with me to share the thing that they can't share with other people.
Hmm.
And it's just, uh, it's really a. It's what's driving me to do this work because it feels so special. Like it just feels particularly men, men of a certain age, I realize like there's so many expectations. I mean, it's, it's everyone across the board, but men have a a particular type of expectation. Put on them by society and by their partners. Yeah, particularly older men.
I think younger people are figuring this out in a better way, and I have so much hope because I see so many cool things going on in the world, and I'm so excited about it. But I, I feel like for older men who have just sort of done all the things in the right way or the expected way, It makes me sad, you know, that they don't have the support.
So I l I in particular, like to work with this group of people and, um, it just, it makes my heart sing literally because it's just like giving them a place to talk about it and, That can just be healing in and of itself. You may not wanna integrate it into your life. You may not wanna have any sort of like guided cake experience, but just having a place to talk about it. Exactly. And I'm not a therapist, you know, but I think a lot of sex therapists can't even handle what.
Some of the things that I've heard, you know, it's like you have to be a person who just is like, it's, it may not be something that they've curated, acted upon, or even desired to be their preference, but it is what it is and there's no shame in that. You know, I'd rather have people. Uh, talk to me or talk to somebody who is open-minded enough to hear it and to just let them, let it all out. Then be banished to the shadows. Mm-hmm.
Because when we do that to people, that's when bad things occur. Exactly. People act out processes without permission or whatever. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, You've heard that one of the biggest fantasies for women is the The rape fantasy. The ravish fantasy.
Yeah.
Now, does that mean that I want that to occur in my life for real? Hell no. Okay. But you know, do, does that make me a bad person because I fantasize about that?
Right.
No.
No. Yeah. And the tea, I, I'm assuming tea, teaching people to, like, guiding 'em through what consensual non-consent can look like and how, how we can do this. I mean, me and Carrie have talked about this type of fantasy before. Mm-hmm. And we joke around about it all like, Hey, how would you get into the house? We have an alarm system. How would this, like we got loud dogs. We have dogs, regular bar. So we, we love playing around with the fantasy of mm-hmm.
Of, of having like, something like that occur. So I'm sure, I'm sure that that's a.
That's a fun experience. I mean, sometimes even talking about the fantasy or kink is just as hot as it when it actually happens. Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. That'd be enough.
Yeah.
You know, role playing it out or just talking about it. Just sharing it can be like so sexually charged, you know, just like sharing that part of yourself with somebody and then it's like, Ooh, you know, tell me more about that and tell me something about yourself. Yeah. It could be a lot of fun.
That, that creates like a great and honestly kind of segues, uh, goes hand in hand with, with e and m is if you are in a partner, uh, partnership and you have one person that's fantasizes about opening up and that might be threesome or group play or like fully like doing your own thing. If you have another partner who says, this is not for me and I wanna remain monogamous, diving into those fantasies just in discussion and becoming more comfortable with like, Hey, how would this play out?
What would we do? What would you do? Mm-hmm. And getting like super detailed with it can be a very fulfilling experiment experience and allow for compromise between a couple to allow the party that is more interested to feel fulfilled in this while still maintaining the boundaries set forth in the relationship agreement.
100%. Yeah. It can live in that world of fantasy and that can be enough,
Yeah. Yeah,
absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
I love it. So what, what, what sort of questions are burning questions? I have
so many damn questions about,
about like e and m I, I,
I wanna know, I, no, I have inappropriate questions running through my head right now, so we're unfiltered. What the fuck you saying? No, I'm like, I wanna know the craziest shit you've ever heard, but I don't think that you're allowed to disclose that. So we are not gonna go there. I don't think you'd want to disclose that. So we're not gonna go there. But, uh, what would be one that you hear that people think like, oh, this is so obscure, but you're like, eh, we hear it all the time.
Like, I mean, you know, you just said like rape fantasy. I feel like a lot of women do do say that. But is there one that kind of like, stands out for you that like, it's actually more common than people think?
Um, I would say, One, maybe, maybe other people feel differently than I do, but for me, I'm, and I think it's because these people are attracted to the platform that I work in. Um, but men's desire to be submissive and in some cases to be feminized is way bigger than I thought.
Really?
Yeah, it's really interesting and I think part of that goes with, um, you know, like I said, the expectation of being masculine and being in charge and being, you know, all these things. And as a parent or husband or whatever, there's just these expectations and it's like there is a desire to be softer. To be controlled, to be told what to do. Um, it's really quite interesting and that was eye-opening for me. Yeah.
I can see that though, totally in our Yeah, I can totally see that. Because you're right. I mean, they have to be up to this like standard and it's almost like they never get to take that mask off.
Yeah.
I, I have my man mask and this is what I have to keep on and I can't take it off because what if someone laughs at me and now I have to kill 'em? No, but I'm just saying like,
Yeah.
Especially, especially in the world of this whole like alpha culture movement that we see going on online with all these Right. Exactly. Feel the same way with all these people saying this is what it like spatting out bullshit about what it means to be masculine and to be a man and here's the the rules you must adhere to and here's how you have to be and.
Uh, I, I could, I could definitely, definitely see how a lot of men would be calling in, just being like, I just wanna be submissive to somebody, please.
I think the funny thing is from a cultural point of view that, um, obviously with feminism, um, we've realized that women suffer incredibly bad through the entire historical process from patriarchy and the control, physical and mental control that men have. But the expectation on men is perhaps not as severe and problematic, but a lot of men suffer the fact that they have to be. This thing that's been drawn up, this con sort of like a, a contract by society.
Yeah. You've got a penis, so now you've gotta behave this way. Right. You've got a vagina, you've gotta do this. It's just bullshit. I mean, I, I have. Everyone. I, I believe, personally has both feminine and masculine elements and at different times of the day even. Mm-hmm. So like I'll be sitting down and we'll be watching a movie and I'll cry because it's just such a really touching moment in the film or something. And it's not like I have to run into the room to cry because
You don't need to hide your tears. You know,
oh my God, I'm crying. You know, it's, it's embracing that stuff and
And we're on the same page that you are. Yeah. Really, because we, we discussed the, we discussed like more on an, on an energetic level, the masculine and feminine and how, how we are, I mean, essentially just vessels for it. Right? And so we, we have the capacity to host these fluctuating levels of masculinity and, and femininity across. Days, weeks, months, years throughout our lives, we can shift in between the two. There is no, I must be on one side.
It's, it's allow yourself to kind of flow through mm-hmm. And like, move through the universe, experiencing these energies as they come up and accept them and, and enroll with them and, and flow with it. And you're gonna be better off for it.
Yeah, and that's where the empathy, you can create such beautiful empathy when you have an understanding of what it is like to be either masculine or feminine, and the responsibilities or concerns that go with both of those things. And if you are fluid in between those two and floating around, your empathy for everyone around you is so much more enhanced. I do think that women put a lot of these expectations on men.
Um, in the past I've seen, um, discussions online where I. Someone will be asking about their partner, their male partner, ums, desire to be or actual, that they're bisexual and or like, would they die to date a bisexual man? And, oh no, that's not masculine enough for me. And I'm like, what does that have to do with having sex with another man is pretty goddamn damn masculine. Masculine. Yeah. I dunno where the.
It's the weird feminization of male sexuality when, when the homosexual comes from, it's the bizarrest thing. They're two men fucking, it's penetration, it's cox galore.
Oh, I can't wait to save all these audio clips. Oh,
that's gonna be
the weirdest thing is though
That's episode title.
it's funny when you get those extreme alpha men, they talk about how, oh, sh you know, you're such a pussy, but you are fucking one. So isn't that gay? You know, it's cause you're fucking a piece of feminine flesh. That's good. Gay. Why aren't you fucking your mate? He's the manly one. Snorting whatever behind you do that.
I love that so much. I
love that. Anyways.
Anyway, just I, I like this. Um, someone said this to me recently. The patriarchy hurts everyone.
Yep.
Right? It's, and it hurts men too. It's fucked up.
it
is. Well, that's what we're trying to change. You know, we're trying to get out there and get people that to, for our viewers, like, uh, like we said, we have a lot of vanillas out there and that's great. That's a beautiful thing to be. Yeah. But we are trying to expand that out to get people to understand that there is no normal. Break out experience what you want to experience, bring your partner in with that and find some kinks along the way.
Like all of these things are only going to build your relationship stronger and create more self-awareness within yourself.
Yeah. And if it doesn't build your relationship stronger, it's gonna give you the, uh, that clarity, that clarity that, oh, this is maybe not the right relationship for
us. Mm-hmm.
and pleasure is for everybody. You know, it may not be sexual pleasure. Maybe you don't experience that, and that's okay too, but knowing that and having an awareness will inform your relationships with other people. Right. It's, it's so important, but it's all, you know, at the root of it, it's about caring for one another and experiencing pleasure, which is something that we all have that right? You
Mm-hmm.
but how do we. Um, how do we raise that up and how do we get more intimate with the people that we love?
Yeah,
absolutely. Awesome. Well, I mean, I, I think that, oh, we're clear. We're clear outta questions at this point. Uh, I thank you guys so much for showing up for this episode today. Um, we, we definitely, we're gonna be doing more episodes on, uh, a deeper dive into ethical, no monogamy in the future. Mm-hmm. Because we wanna be able to study the entire umbrella and all the little bits and pieces and cogs and gears that fall underneath it. Did you say cocks? Cogs.
Sorry,
Hello.
I heard cocks.
There's cogs galore.
No, but it was absolutely great having y'all on. Uh, I, I would love to have y'all back. Y'all are hilarious. Yeah. Yeah, that would
let's do that. Be lovely.
Yeah, I would
love that.
Yep. Absolutely. Where are you guys based, by the way?
So we're, we're in the Dallas Fort Worth area here in Texas, so you're already talking to people who, we were surrounded by a lot of, a lot of red conservative attitudes in
Oh yeah. Yeah.
standards. Mm-hmm. And so we work very hard to try to open up more people to, uh, uh, heightened way of thinking in terms of sexuality. That's, that's kind of one of the big purposes of the podcast. Hundred percent. To help people move out of their, their, um, their current state into something, something more open. So,
that's, that's one of the most, um, problematic processes is when, particularly conservative religious values, because you're working on a belief system that allows them to get, uh, some sort of nirvana and, uh, have them embrace something that's beyond. That process, it can be really challenging.
And if they have, like, um, you were saying before, if they have those notions and, and kinky ideas and things in their brain, but yet they're living in such a conservative constantly reaff referring that process, it's really problematic. And the fact that you guys are doing what you're doing and letting people, you know, have a snippet of something they probably never even thought about is really important. Hmm.
Yeah, we
appreciate that. That's our goal. Diving into sexual narratives, diving into where your shame comes from and figuring out if, if, if you're comfortable where you are, then great. That's where, that's where you belong. Um, if you're looking to open up a little bit more, then let's sit down and talk,
then listen to us. So, um, how can people get ahold of you? What would be the best
Um. So no shame with CJ on Instagram and I'd love to hear from you and let's talk about stuff that you're into. Love to hear about it.
Awesome.
Yeah, thank you too. It's
yeah, of course, of course. Thank y'all for being on CJ Linwood. Y'all have a wonderful day and we will see everybody next time on another episode of Come With Casey.