Sinners (2025)

This is the Kill by Kill podcast where we are dedicated to celebrate the least discussed component of any horror film, the characters. We're going to unpack all the goriest of details of 2025's... sinners in the hopes that a blues man's untimely end is just the beginning of the jokes we might make at their expense. And as always, there's only one person I trust that can tell the difference.

Between spilled wine and spilled blood, the one, the only. Gina Radcliffe, how are you doing today, Gina? I can't even make a joke. That's how good this fucking movie is. Gina, I... Reveal this to you and I'm revealing it to the audience now. I wept for 10 straight minutes in the middle of this movie. Tears streaming down my face. I was transported.

I would call this not only the best horror film of the year, which is saying something because we're not even halfway through the year, but also the best film I've watched in... theaters or at home this year yeah I would agree with you on that it takes both those trophies for me if people want a spoiler free review it's going to be very simple go see it

Run. Do not walk. See it in the best possible theater you can see it in. Yeah, I mean, I don't, you know, I did not see it. In IMAX, I am actually going to see it again tomorrow. But, yeah. If you can't do IMAX, that's fine. I realize IMAX costs the amount of buying a small sedan these days. But try to see it on a big screen with a good sound system. Yes.

I think that makes a lot of difference. You know, see it in the best capacity you're able to. This is a really, really well presented, well scripted. Truly well-performed and well-conceptualized motion picture. There's a lot of feeling to this. There's a lot of passion behind what is going on. It is both a great horror movie and a great movie. And that is saying something because we haven't, listen, I'm sure there's been a dreck strewn about.

In the five short months since the, well, by the time this comes out, six short months since 2025 began. But if this is the way it's starting out.

We're in for a bounty this year because this is a really good motion picture. Yeah, and it makes the fact that almost every trailer I got before it... The fact that it was a horror movie and really interesting, unique looking horror movies, Final Destination 6 aside. You know, all look like they're trying something very interesting and unique, and it's very exciting. Yes. We've kind of talked about it more so on our Q&A show, the Chat by Chat channel.

on Patreon, which if you're not subscribed, you absolutely should. But we have a bit of a glut going on here. And I think it would suck more. if that glut was full of absolute wastes of time. But even things that I would normally dismiss, like, what is that? before dawn, after dawn. Until dawn. Until dawn. I...

Don't mind an experiment like that. Like, that's what horror is for, is to do a fun experiment. It seems like a fun experiment movie. I will enjoy watching that when I get a chance. I'm not rushing to theaters. This is one that I think people... need to sit in a dark room with a big bright screen and really feel that moment all of the moments with a crowd if you can if you can manage it

Yeah, and I think what makes it really special is that I would go so far as to say that it is a horror movie that even people who don't enjoy horror might like. True, yes. And while there's blood involved, I don't think there's anything so grisly that it would throw people off. I don't even think blood is presented.

that convincingly almost like on purpose because there's a lot of gas lamp style lighting happening here it becomes very orange inside the juke joint and so red blood Almost comes off like a pink because of the lighting. And as a result, it didn't like, oh, I'm taken out or anything. I'm like, oh, that's a choice. That's a theatrical choice. And that is true throughout. There's a lot of things in this movie that are presented in this.

order in the manner in which they are presented on purpose it's very well thought through And as a result, the package you get at the end of it has an emotional resonance to it that I'm going to be hard pressed to find in any other film. I'm not going to say it's impossible, but wow.

this could happen all the time. I think it would. And when it comes down to it, you've got one of cinema's best directors currently working. And he has this particular story he wants to tell. And he's picked some fantastic performers to be a part of this thing. And they are giving their... There's no weak points in this film for me. It all feels intentional and driven and emotional. And the story comes through character. It's everything you want. Now, listen, opinions vary.

art can hit for some people and not for others this is fine if it's not your absolute favorite thing in the world that you are not lesser than it is this this is all okay but I think this has the greatest chance to hit the widest amount of people. It just happens to be that good. Yeah, I mean, it really kind of, you know, hits a whole bunch of different checkboxes.

Yeah, you're right. It's not gory, but I think there's a sufficient amount of blood. I would say it was comparable to maybe, I don't know, Midnight Mass level of blood. Probably the goriest it gets is when the villain is killed at the end with a guitar, which is great. It's very funny in places.

uh it's very sexy in places yes you know if you if you are complaining that there are no more sex scenes in their, in, in movies where idols, there are sex scenes, there are sex scenes without nudity, which is, which is, which is, which is very, you know, fascinating to me. it's about passion and you you're not really you're told a story through those scenes as well i don't think there's a real dull moment in it i have heard and read some people

stating that the first half is obviously a little slower because it's a build-up and whatnot. Well, it's developing characters. Why do people have such a problem with character development? I don't know. Because... They've been conditioned to a formula that is reinforced now all the time. And horror is not immune to it. And when you vary that, when you try to do something outside of that, it...

Ticks the part of people's brains that says, this isn't supposed to happen this way at this very moment. I am jarred by the change to the formula. And yet they will crow from the rooftops. Why is everything so formulaic? You honestly just simply cannot have it both ways. And it's just one of those things that you have to go, hey, just. Let the story tell the story to me. I'm not telling the story. I'm not rewriting the story.

I'm here to enjoy this story as presented. Well, you pointed out when we chatted after you'd seen the movie yesterday that people, detractors of the movie and...

Thankfully, I have not encountered too many. And they're not being they're being fairly transparent about about. You know, well, anything that a lot of people like must be inherently not good. Yes. But, you know, too confusing inspired by with ripping off. from dusk till dawn yes now what what you know what do people seem to forget about from dusk till dawn is it it's about

A full hour before the vampires show up in it. And you get a lot of banter. You get a lot of fighting. You get all these characters kind of getting to know each other. You get Salma Hay. doing a drawn out strip tease and stick your foot in Quentin Tarantino's mouth and like you don't get vampires for for a while yeah and but all but you know that's fine

But, you know, somebody else does that. It takes too long to get going. It doesn't fucking take too long to get going. It absolutely does not. These characters are fascinating absolutely from the jump. You want to know what's going on behind and the information. trickles out as characters have conversations with each other. We learn about each one of them and how they see the world currently and why they see it that way.

as their stories, as their experiences, slowly are revealed to one another. I would say one of the elements of this, that while there's a bifurcation here of build-up... to the sort of horror apex here and the turn, that the main difference between From Dusk Till Dawn to Sinners is that From Dusk Till Dawn was built to be... two movies. It is literally the grindhouse formula, but within a singular film.

Here's this crime movie that turns into a kidnapping. And then at this other point, this different genre jumps into the fray and it was sold. primarily on the back half of that, for whatever reason. That is not the same here. We are introduced to these people. This is one movie, one narrative.

You are of the understanding that there are vampires throughout this film because the fourth character you meet is a vampire. What I really like is you... brought up a good point that information sort of trickles out and that the information the audience receives about these characters and what they've experienced and where they've come from It comes through very clearly without having an excessive amount of expository dialogue. Right.

Like, we know that Smoke and Stack, the twin brothers at the center of it, were working for Al Capone at some point and have returned to their hometown with a lot of money. that they are hoping to spend very quickly. So, you know, we gather, okay, they probably have stolen this money. You have that Smoke is married. He's left a wife behind. They became estranged, presumably after their child has passed away.

Yeah, we don't have any big flashbacks about, you know, the baby dying. There's no, we don't find out how the baby died. It's just, you know, it happens in mortality rate was much higher back in the 1930s, I guess. 1931. Okay. So you have... You have Stack, the other brother, who's a little more volatile. I mean, they're both kind of volatile, but you can tell that Smoke is kind of the voice of reason a little bit. But Stack has had an affair with a white-passing woman.

who wants to still be involved with him. He does not, but they are drawn together because the sex be that good. And we know that because she spits in his mouth and he is. Perfectly fine with that. She specifically calls out at a train station. This is like 20 minutes in. You gave me oral sex so good that I exploded. And then you've fucked me nearly to death. And you're like, uh-huh. They seem great. That seems like a rock-solid base of their relationship. But it is so complicated.

By the fact that these twins were also partially raised by her mother. And there's this family dynamic. And that stack. is looks at her and says, if you were to be with me, you are foregoing any level of safety beyond our mere racial makeups because she is passing. But there's still that one, you know, percent, one drop rule of her racial status that puts her in danger. That being said, beyond that.

There's the fact that he has been a gangster for a very long time. He was violent before he left for war. was better at violence when he came back. And now he has perfected some of this in a gang war in Chicago, coming out of it, having robbed both sides and figuring... if we are going to deal with bullshit, we might as well come back to Mississippi and deal with it here. And. I set you up with a white guy in Louisiana that would keep you safe. And she's like, I didn't want that.

What I wanted was you, but you didn't want to listen. It might seem like an illusion of safety, but if one person finds out... It's all over with. So I'm in just as much danger. You just, you decided you wanted something different. And the racial dynamics within this one relationship is interesting. And then you get to all the others. On top of that, beyond the racial dynamics of the time. You also have the interpersonal relationships of the meaning they have in that particular town.

the menace that their father was and the reputation that they gained. It's just layer cakes. It's just layer, layer, layer, layer, layer, layer, layer. all the way down of interesting things about all these people before vampires get involved. So I'm not going to say there's something wrong with people who don't get it or anything. I just think if you want one thing.

you're going to be disappointed because it has so many things to give you that if you're only looking for that one dimension, I think you're going to come up a little short. I mean, I love the fact that rather than having, you know, a big moment where Sammy, their young... blues musician cousin has to explain to his father that, well, really, I'm more interested in playing the blues than taking over for you. He literally just sings it in a song.

And I'm like, what a fascinating choice to take for a vampire movie. Like the sort of staid speech in a lesser movie. that someone would have with another character. He just sings it. Yeah. It does do a lot more show.

than it does tell but at the same time everyone's conversations are revealing elements of their character their relationship to one another and their motivations to getting to this point and it does a lot of this communication without making it over evident as as you noted before in terms of the the relationship that uh that smoke has

With everyone's names. Annie. His wife. Annie. We're not given a lot of, as the kids say, trauma porn here, right? We know. What life must have been like in the previous 30 years leading up to 1931 for all of these people. We've seen a lot of this. What we're interested in. is what their individual issues are with one another and why it fell apart, why they're still drawn to one another. The fact that Annie... is very dedicated to serving her community.

with the tools and the means that they have. They're worthy of protection. They're worthy of good luck. They're worthy of services for their health and their happiness. And she believes that she is providing that. And that is worthy. What she gets in return is worth her effort. And Smoke's a little dubious of that. That is not something that...

It naturally comes to him. He wants the success beyond what Mississippi can give him. And he feels like if I bring all my tools of the trade and all these things that I've brought with me. I will be able to convert that to a real life here. And yes, there will be bullshit, but I can deal with that bullshit. But what you get out of their relationship that she has been.

through the hoodoo bag that is around his neck, that he has been protected to a certain degree, not from what he's seen, not from what he's experienced, but from a physical harm. As she says, you're standing on two legs. You have two arms. You've got a head that still functions. You can say that the reason that happened is a lot of different things, but you know and I know. It's what you're wearing around your neck that gave you that advantage. And it's true. It's proven.

Well, what I love also is that he doesn't believe in it at all, but he still wears it because she asked him to. Yes. And I just think that's a very, you know. quietly loving moment what you you see it demonstrated they don't have to say it because they demonstrate it for you on camera and as a result it's just You really get wrapped up in their wants and dreams and needs and desires. You are invited in. That was something we'll get back to. You're invited in.

to their most personal wants and needs. And as a result, When they're in danger, it's not just, I have to feel for this person because they are the main character. She is a love interest. That person is funny, therefore I like them. It goes beyond that. something much more personal and so their wins and losses feel like genuine wins and genuine losses yeah i will never and we've talked about this before i will never Understand anyone who gripes about the time that's taken in a horror movie to...

get to know the characters a little bit. Yeah. Because it's like, you know, do you not want the loss of these characters or a character, you know... being being revealed to actually be be a danger to the others do you not want that to be visceral and and felt by the audience or do you do you want that to be greeted with a shrug yeah because i i don't want to you greet

someone's death in a movie with a shrug. Yeah. Especially, and I think this is different for everything. You know, for a slasher, for a Friday 13th, you know. there's a shorthand there i'm getting tidbits i'm not getting it's not deep because the movie i've gone to is not deep i don't expect a sinner's level experience out of friday the 13th i don't know

that that would be necessarily successful. But what Sinners tells you from the get-go is that there is a whole lot of depth here, that it's going to mine. And... your experience is going to be elevated by how deeply you become invested in these characters. It's just a... truly masterful examination of many, many subjects. But the way it's laid out, Kugler really decides what you learn, when you learn it, what you see.

how you should sort of feel about it based on their reactions to one another and what point of the story it is. It's so well thought out. And it's special. It should be. denoted as special. It should be celebrated.

Now let's get to another tidbit of bullshit before we go too much farther. And that was after its first weekend, which it did very, very well for an R-rated horror movie. in theaters. It did very well that first weekend. Industry magazine decided to declare that despite this obvious win, it was probably going to be a loss because of its budget. So you should probably just bottle up those emotions of... joy and satisfaction at this good movie doing well and shove it to the side.

Yeah, I mean, don't go thinking that people want to see original movies made for adults every now and then. This is an anomaly. Yeah, and an anomaly that... We need eight more Minecraft movies. And we do. That's the thing. Like, I don't want all sinners and all Minecraft movies. I would like a variety of all of them because all those audiences deserve to be met with things that they like. Like, I don't.

have to love minecraft that's really okay but i do like that a whole bunch of people younger than me got to see a movie about something they fucking care about and that they at least enjoyed the experience it may not be a good movie But they enjoyed the experience because that joy of that experience might lead them to try out other experiences. And the same thing is true here. That being said.

What is really being underestimated in that particular article was the fact that you have a bunch of people who are, you know, Kugler and Jordan have combined for quite a few. Big motion pictures. Now, yes, they had IP attached to them, but... They have lasted longer in the culture than other IP-driven things. And they've continued on. They've been important to be on those initial rushes. As a result, they have their audience. Then you have the horror audience, which is, of course...

rather front loaded as usual. You usually have a bunch of people show up for the new horror movie of that week, expecting a certain sort of thing. And then you sort of have the, well, I'm going to go out and I'm going to support this scrappy indie, not indie, but scrappy adult-oriented motion picture. And, of course, you have a black audience that Coogler and Jordan have rightfully been serving up great movies for, great story, things to cheer for, things to see themselves on screen. And so...

All of those audiences were sort of served. But what ended up activating them after the fact was the insult of being told, well, this is bullshit. On to next week. And they're like.

Well, maybe. Fuck you. And so the following weekend, it dipped an entire 5%, which is fucking unheard of. Yeah, and you're also getting, you're getting a lot of... return audiences. Like, honestly, this is the first time, this will be the first time I have seen a new movie in the theater. twice and i literally cannot remember right

Because there's a lot going on. And I do believe like it's only going to get deeper the more times you see it. It's all very intentionally constructed. That tightly woven pattern. reveals itself with more exposure to what's there. I'm sure I'm going to enjoy it on a completely different level the next time I see it. But... I will also say that this is the first film that has made me openly weep.

in the movie theater in a little bit yeah you uh you use the word uh experience and and i think this movie is an experience um the when i i actually had seen it the night before like the Thursday before it opened and like just the energy in the theater was really really something and Like that first musical sequence was just like, like everybody was just sort of stunned. I felt so.

communal in that moment and henceforth like the one of the major driving functions of this film is that this communal artistic expression regardless of the particular art form being portrayed, is something that connects us to greater things. That is its ultimate function. You know, you have a lot of people of the time and certainly you have. Boy, I'm losing it because of the day that. Miles Canton's character, Sammy, his father played by Saul Williams. You know, obviously...

would much rather him use those gifts specifically for the church. This is a church-born thing only. To go outside of that... There's a sinful element to it. It's for money. It's for glory. It's for yourself. And the thing is, like, hey, I'm sorry, Mr. Reverend Moore. But do you not think your preaching has some self-serving elements to it? It absolutely does. Because when Sammy comes in in that first scene and sees...

his father be replaced with this PTSD flashback of Remick. He knows that while there are many, many differences of intention. that these are weird flip sides of the same power coin and that whatever gifts he has, he has on his own. And his freedom of expression means more to him. than to simply fall in line with what this fucking Irish vampire says or his dad who is dedicated to a dead-end church in Mississippi. No, no.

No disrespect. One of my favorite aspects of it, and I am not the first to point this out, is Remick trying to... lure smoke and stack and the others to to team up as it were with him because they're all oppressed Yeah. You know, they're black. He's Irish. He's being chased by Choctaw. Like, he knows what it's like. Yeah. And, you know, being a person of Irish heritage.

Yeah, a lot of us have tried to pull that, you know, Irish people can't be racist. I was like, oh, no, they could be very racist. I have firsthand knowledge of this. Yeah, just as any woman can have inherited, you know, an internal misogyny. We can all demonstrate these.

added biases that we collect along the way for god knows what reason whether someone set out to insert that programming into our brains or they are societal and we just adapt to them and then take them on as personal philosophy whatever those things are there are comparisons to be made but also give me a fucking break, Remick. And that is really demonstrated when he sings a song about picking poor Robin clean, which I...

I will not the first person to say this. This is something I gained after the fact that that particular song is connected to the destruction of a town that had both white and black. leaders in their political structure by a white faction who wanted to wipe that out. Wanted to Jim Crow in effect that particular town.

to drive out that black business, to drive out the black wealth, to drive out the integration. And so you kind of see it on their faces where I think one brother knows the origin and the other one doesn't. Where Stack is kind of like, okay, all right. And Smoke's like, motherfucker, are you kidding me? You don't know where that... particular song comes from but i do robins were made were a game bird that were made illegal as a game bird particularly to starve out black enclaves

Yeah, and you also have this other very exhilarating but also with a creepy edge musical number in which... Merrick performed a song called Rocky Road to Dublin. Right, yeah, yeah. Which is, you know, a song about the oppression of the Irish people. And he's got all, you know, black dancers behind him. Right, yeah. Just, you know, jigging and... And it is pretty heavy. I mean, they're obviously in his throng. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's controlling them.

You know, whereas in Sammy's musical number, it's more, you know, everybody is just sort of taken in by his music, but under their own. under their own will he is facilitating that room's expression of joy and they are but they are connected to one another And having their individual moments, you know, with one another. And it's exhibiting in all these fantastical ways. And you just go, oh my God, this is what art is supposed to be. But with Remick.

They're all spinning in a circle around him. Right, I mean, and it ends... Practically, then practically lifting him up on their shoulders like he just won the big football game. Yes. And when Sammy goes home to his father at his church, all those churchgoers are faced towards him. And when his mother turns around and yells his name, you know, Reverend Moore is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Focus up. What's important is what I'm doing here. And conversely.

You have those flashbacks. It's not something you have not quite seen yet. And so when you revisit those moments, you're like, oh, oh, oh. And like, that doesn't, that. I don't believe happens by accident. I'm sure there are plenty of happy accidents here, but there's a deliberate structure to how this information is outlaid. And it is just...

Crazy to me that the performer who plays Sammy, Miles Cannon, has never appeared on screen before, has never played guitar until cast in this movie. Yeah, this was a debut on several levels. Just, I cannot wait to see what else this guy does. Because if he does this, this well.

That just tells you what a star this is. And then you look around at the rest of the cast and you're like, I cannot wait to see what Michael B. Jordan does next because I've been on the hook for this guy for quite some time. Same thing with Haley Stanfield. The same thing with Winomi Osako. The same thing with Omar Benson Miller. Like Delroy Lindo swinging in from the outside, delivering yet another.

blockbuster performance out of and he has never really slowed down he's just only missed opportunities that he should have been cast in

He's always been good. And guess what? In this, he is amazing. Yeah, when he gets this speech early in the film, it's just like, like, there's just so many, like... breathtaking moments this i can't i can't really use a think of a better word than that like you know when i see uh and i went in this a little bit when i wrote about it on my newsletter when i when i see a horror movie you know i You.

I would like to be a little scared, you know, maybe a little grossed out. Sure. You know, maybe amused occasionally. Go down the list of Stephen King mandated things. If I can't do this, I'll do that. I'll do this. Right. Sure.

I don't normally go into a horror movie expecting to be exhilarated or emotionally moved. And I was on both accounts. Yeah. This is one of those things where I'm sure there are some people who walked into this movie and walked out of a different people. The way that, I've said this for like, when I went in to see Aliens, a movie that I was not supposed to see that night, but my cousins, you know.

convince this person in line because we were in line for top gun. There were two movie theaters in this entire complex. And they're like, I don't want, I'm too scared to go see aliens. And so we swapped tickets and. I walked into that movie, one thing, walked out of that experience, someone else. And I am.

I will be damned if this does not happen to people in this motion picture. It is transformative in that way. It is inspired in that way. I'm not comparing these two movies. I am simply saying... These types of experiences are what transform people from I like movies to I love this.

Yeah, I mean, when you got, and I'm going to, this is going to be a huge spoiler, so if you have not seen the movie yet, plug your ears or skip about five minutes. I'm going to warn people, we are spoilers from like five minutes in. Yeah, but when you have, I think in less assured director's hands, when smoke is dying. and his dying thoughts are being reunited with Annie and their baby would have come off as so cheap and corny.

And yet I was just crying because it was such an intimate moment because she's nursing the baby and, and, and like he, like. he looks so like like uncertain about holding it and it just it just feels so organic and natural and and and like it was just such a you know you know a tender moment and it's like oh that's really beautiful that that's what he sees while he's dying and like you know in the in the in the you know in the end after all like you know and you don't expect something

like that in, in, in the end of this. I mean, you, when you've got this, this mid credit sequence where, where an elderly Sammy is, you know, meets up with, with, with stack and Mary who, you know, I guess they really do love each. other. They've stayed together for 50 odd years. It can't just be both being vampires that have kept them together. I'll just put it out there.

If you're a couple and you're a normal couple, it's great. But when you're a vampire couple, oh, Gina. It's better and better. I mean, you know, the movie Thirst didn't make us seem like such a good deal, but... Yeah, I guess it depends on how much you really like each other before you actually turn into vampires. Yes. But when an elderly Sammy, who's played by Buddy fucking Guy. Yeah.

you know, says like, yeah, well, you know, in spite of everything, that was still a great fucking day. It didn't end well. But oh my God, the way it started. You know, I... I got to play the blues. I got to go down on a lady. It showed me what life could be. Sure. It also showed me what death could be, but I lived. So.

And it directed him to the path he knew he was supposed to take. Yeah, he wears the scars of that moment and he wears them proudly. And yeah, occasionally someone will look across at him at stage and go, holy shit, where the fuck did he get those scars anyway? He's not telling that story. That's for him. That's for him alone. He tells his story through his art. Seeing Buddy Guy was just like, holy, again, this is not an accident.

This is something that you build up to and making that moment just beyond when the credits are. is flexing. It's really flexing. And it's a long, for a mid-credits, it's a long sequence too. Yeah. I just enjoyed every, and every character. brought so much interest and depth to what they were doing. I enjoyed every second of it. Even characters that...

On the whole, might have gotten some level of a shorter shrift. Like, we don't know everything about cornbread. Fucking love Cornbread. You say that, but you say that, but he's still my favorite character. That's the thing. Like, Cornbread, he's living a very specific life. And he is...

very aware of the kind of trouble he can get into when smoke and snack blow back into town. And he's like, listen, I don't have a whole lot, but I, at the end of this night, I would very much like to come home to my wife and. she's kind of sold on the way stack presents it that like, yeah, you could go home to your wife or you could go home to your wife with some money in your pocket. And she's like,

What kind of money are we talking about? And she's not wrong, you know? Like, opportunity does not... drive up in a car in that particular region at this time very, very often. And so, yeah, the way cornbread... believes that trouble to be is, you know, we might run up against somebody who's trying to slash somebody later in the night because they lose some money, which happens. Somebody might get too drunk, which happens. He doesn't think vampires.

who are definitely going to need to be invited into this establishment. And this is the one vampire thing we're absolutely going to focus on as an impediment to them just biting motherfuckers is this invitation.

in like not cinch fright night has this really been a thing that that we've come across in the vampire movies we've covered but this makes it not only a thing but a thing that never gets old Yeah, I think this might be the first vampire movie that actually addresses the practicalities and difficulties of, you know... you know of having to be invited in somewhere because apparently

As it turns out, it works even when you've already been invited in before. Well, that part of you died. Yeah, you have to be re-invited. And this scene in which a... newly turned cornbread is trying to get back into the juke joint is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time. Just drawn out. Just what a sketch. What a game they're playing. Because everybody is confused as to

why he is saying he needs to be invited in. He can't say why he needs to be invited in. He starts arguing with Annie about it, which is even more hilarious. Yeah. And Annie so knows what's fucking up. We will get back to this because the conversation should not end here. But I will say, the moment where Annie says, okay.

What we're dealing with are fucking vampires. And here's the way you kill them. No one in that group is like, come the fuck on. kidding me with this vampire shit yeah the only one the only one that's that's doubtful is stack yes simply because he's seeing so much more of the world to be exposed to world war one and those horrors and then be in the middle of a gang war in Chicago and shit. Like, he's kind of like, ah, but everyone else is like, let's start making some silver bullets. Everybody.

That sounds good to me. All right. This is the way we kill him. This is what we got to do. And it just clears up that, all of that so quickly. Back to cornbread at the door. Yeah, there's no, yeah, there's no, you know, not much infighting. Again, it doesn't waste time with the usual bullshit. Right. Because there isn't actually any, like...

bad blood between these people that needs to be cleared up, you know, before everything can, you know, can get back on track. Like, I mean, you've got some conflict between Stack and Mary. But, you know, obviously they're so into each other, you know, nothing else than just sexually that, you know, as soon as the juke joint opens up and she shows up, that's all out the door. All that's out of the way.

But so you don't get a lot of, you know, this, you know, irritating, you sniping at each other. You know, and I think, again, that that is, you know, them going along without question. what Annie says is more. gives more dimension to her as a character without having to provide a lot of expository dialogue. She's trustworthy. She's honest. She knows what she's talking about with these things.

an expert on matters of, let's say, alternative worlds. And she wouldn't say something like that if she didn't know what she was talking about. Of course you're going to believe what she says. Why wouldn't she know that? Why would she make up something like that? Yeah, she's a genuine authority on the subject. And instead of doubt, everyone meets that with, okay, let's start.

He's like, oh, we need to take this seriously. Okay. Because what they've seen has been pretty fucking fantastic. And they're also not infected by any sort of cynicism that would come. with vampire media.

Because Dracula does not come out until 1931. Certainly, Dracula's probably not being played in any theater that they're allowed into to see it. That's not a... media figure that's like well i see that on a movie screen they don't have that access to be cynical about it she is very authoritative about the information she has and she's also instantly proven right

about, you know, what she says. People just get on fucking board. Whereas, you know, you have Remick, who doesn't need to convince people necessarily. Once they're bitten...

They're under his thrall. And he knows what they know. And therefore, he can make much more informed decisions about what to do. When he visits that couple. He comes to them and says, oh, I'm being chased in an Irish accent. And they are entirely resistant. And he instantly changes tack. to, oh, wait a second, no, well, here's, you know, let me southernize, let me assimilate, let me culture vulture my way into the door.

Here, I'm a white person in need because I can see just beyond this Ku Klux Klan hood. Uh, let me appeal to that part of your nature and goes in and, you know, murderizes their baby, converts the dad instantly. Okay. So yeah. So yeah, I actually was going to ask, so they do, the baby is dead then, right? The baby's not making any noises and the dad has blood on his mouth. Okay. It's not an exchange sort of vampiric relationship. Once you're bitten, you're in the chain.

This is also what makes the I need permission to come inside thing so important. Because if you have near instantaneous vampirism, you have to have some sort of buffer. Otherwise, there's sheer numbers. would be too much. And as a result, like, the things that drive other characters to make decisions they make later on...

are very dependent on this whole, the horde they have outside. It's really, really necessary. You know, once Grace. sees her husband outside is a vampire that Remick knows where their daughter is and he threatens the entire town. She has grown up in a period of time where she knows. Other towns that have minority businesses are under attack. They can be wiped out in an instant. That is something she knows.

From experience. So when that threat is made, that becomes a very viable and big need in her mind. She's not just fucking everyone over when she says, come on in. She knows if I, we don't draw them in and kill them now. Their next step is to kill everyone we know in that town, just like all these other towns. What I also appreciate is both Grace and even earlier in the evening, Annie are...

pretty aware that they're not going to survive this. Annie foretells it, but she's doing some sort of soothsaying. And she basically says, am I going to survive this? I was like, no. Okay, so what am I going to do with that knowledge? How am I going to, I know I'm not making it out of here alive. What can I do to make sure that other people make it out of here alive? Or in a couple of cases undead. And she makes moves in that direction.

What happens to her, the fact that Stack and Mary witness that, is what causes them the connection to Remick to break. They are never the same after that. Their connection to Annie overpowers the supernatural hold that Remick has on them.

Not something that happens on accident. This is planned. I also think it's interesting that... And Annie is very, again, in the knowledge that she is not going to bake it, so she might as well just fight as much as she can, is very stoic. While Perlene, who is... the fourth woman in this group is very typically crying and very scared because she doesn't know how this is going to end. And I just think that's an interesting approach. Like, you would think that most people, you know...

with, you know, knowledge foretold of their deaths, which will be happening very soon and probably won't be very pleasant, you know, would be, you know, the ones in, you know, hysterical tears. But nope, she's like, well, I'm... Might as well go down fighting. But she also knows if she gets turned into a complete vampire, that Remick inherits all of her knowledge and her memories and her skills.

She doesn't want him to have her skills. She doesn't want him to have the memories of her child. She does not want that stuff to be exposed to what is a culture vulture. whitewash of her life and who would, but then again, it sure as shit happened again, the layers in this bad boy. I, I also have to stay when grace. goes outside to take her husband out. You know, she catches on fire. He catches on fire. And she's like,

I'm making sure you don't go anywhere. I will burn alive before you harm anyone else. And she's very dedicated to that fact. She is a singular mission, but I also understand that mission. Like she just kind of knows like. There are bigger fish to fry here. If I don't take this stand, if we don't take this stand, this doesn't end here. And we need it to end here.

believes what Annie has to say and knows how dangerous the situation is. I think a lot of other in the group realize it. Certainly Delroy Lindo's character, Delta Slim, he realizes it too. He knows that... He might have to sacrifice himself so that stronger, younger warriors in this group will be able to take out other vampires. He collects a large group of them so that...

they won't, you know, enter the fray. It's just, oh my God, I love this fucking movie. I love it on every level because as good of a horror movie as it is, on a character level, it is so much deeper.

then what other like have we we really talked about a better vampire movie so far i mean so far i mean the problem with that is you know My favorite ones are all so different from each other. Like you can't really compare this to a Bram Stoker's Dracula because it's completely different styles. And then you in turn...

I can't compare either of them to thirst, which, okay, we haven't talked about thirst yet. We will. We will get to thirst. Throw me another one that we've talked about. Salem's Lot. Salem's Lot. Certainly something I have a deep connection to. And, you know, obviously it's a little bit more aimed in my pallid direction and everything. But that being said, like, a lot of the feelings I have about Salem's Lot have to do with...

all the information I carry into it from the book. Not to say that that 79 version isn't amazing and have certain things that... live within me and affect me they absolutely do it's just like i am feeding a bit more into that particular you know you know, coin slot, then I'm winning when I pull down the handle. It's funny, you know, I bring up Salem's Lot and I've already mostly forgotten the woeful...

remake that we covered. But how much better is the group taking a sunrise in this than in that movie? Yeah, and it makes me, you know, in thinking about this, it makes me even more disappointed about how that turned out. Because everything about it just feels so phoned in and indifferent and lazy. And it's just like, none of these are words you could apply to sinners. Yeah. And listen, it's all ice cream, right? They're all different flavors. They have different purposes. They're not.

none of these movies that we mentioned before are trying to be sinners to that degree. It's just that... And there's some recency bias here too, but I also don't think this is a movie that can ultimately fade over time for me. No, I don't think so. I would be highly surprised. I'm seeing it again tomorrow and I am.

I am as if not even more excited than, than I was before I saw it the first time. Um, and listen, it should be noted. There's great performances all, all across the face. Perlene, uh, played by Jamie Lawson.

just gorgeous voice just a winning presence you kind of know a lot about her from the very little that we're told she wants to have fun You get the feeling that maybe fun isn't something she's having. She may be comfortable, but she's not having fun. She's a married lady, and I think she considers herself to be slumming it a little bit. But it's a one-night adventure that...

You know, she gets caught up in something that's just beyond her control. You know, it's quite possible her husband doesn't like her singing because it outshines him in some sort of way. And here's this moment of release in this young intro. who has a lot going on and what it wouldn't be to feel like that for one night. And she does. And she's part of this miraculous culmination. of culture and art and music.

and how it resonates, and how it carries forward, and how the past is pulled into it. And it goes beyond individual experience. It's all of these things, because the Chows also. feel that pull even though they are very mississippi born and bred they're also being their past is being pulled into that culmination as well all of and Listen, Remick can feel that pull himself. When he sees it, he goes, well, if I had that, then God knows what I could do in this world.

It makes this moment so much more dangerous because you can see this joy.

And you can later see how Remick can use the culmination of the crew around him to approximate it. But he can't really ever create it. Sammy can. Yeah, no, he, you know what he's doing? He's doing cultural appropriation. He's a culture vulture. You see a lot of vultures throughout the movie up until this point. They're just picking things up. You know. Vultures serve a function. Culture vultures don't. And Remick is, you know, a parasite. That's what vampires are to a certain degree. But...

This is just one of those interesting variations on this media figure and archetype that we've seen so many times where it's not that so much that he's a disease. It's that. He's a disease that takes everything in your past and uses it against other people. He is truly dangerous. Once he knows something, he can make bad, bad shit happen.

And he could take everything that's important to you and sacred to you and use it for his own devices. I would also say this is an interesting variation on the sort of...

trapped in one location sort of horror that we've seen a lot of over the years at some point it felt very all right we're gonna stand around a table and eat a clove of garlic And you just go, oh, we're John Carpenter's The Thing now. But it's not just to be John Carpenter's The Thing. It's using that, I always liked that. How can I use it in this situation that... also evokes all the character moments that that scene manages to draw out of the thing.

And he does it. He does it with all these other new characters. It's not simply that he has reference points. It's that he uses those references as chords in a completely different song. And you can... notice it but then it just it's out of mind like that's i just happen to recall that now but i didn't come out of this liking it because it made a solid john carpenter's the thing reference

Well, yeah, I mean, and that comes back to what I said before about, you know, people, you know, when it's convenient to them, well, you know. will acknowledge that something is is influenced by and then when they when they decide they want to be contrarian they say it's a ripple right yeah I mean, it's pretty difficult to accuse Ryan Coogler of ripping off From Dusk Till Dawn when he himself has said it was an influence. Like, when you acknowledge...

That you drew inspiration from something for your own work of art. It makes no sense to turn around and then be accused of ripping it off. And they have very different intentions and very different aims. You know, Dawn... has a heavy pastiche thing that it's attempting to do and it's also like oh well here's two dangerous men and they're very very dangerous and they make this assumption that once they go over the border they'll just be allowed to be as dangerous

as they possibly can and then they wander into a place filled with more dangerous non-people and you're like okay like that's a thing and that can be fun but it's not transformative

the way this is it's not trying to be it has different aims and so oh god I just found that so deflating when I came across it because it just felt like I have to diminish the light of this because this exists. Well, that's the thing, yeah. It's too many people like it. It is my sacred responsibility to poke holes in it. And I was just like, no, you're not going to ruin this for people. And I think that person quickly found out how, you know, truly ill thought that sort of.

drive was that he thought he was poking holes. He was poking a bear and he just did not. think through it it carried about and a whole bunch of people who just want to rabble rouse picked it up uh you see it here you see it there but ultimately i think pieces of art that bring more joy to the table, you know, you're going to end up having a harder time trying to force people.

to diminish the experience after the fact that's, that's just so rarely happens. Um, I think people are just very, very deluded. by the red letter media effect of poking holes in the Phantom Menace. They want, they're so desperate to redo that formula, but you can't do that with everything. You can't. Not everything can be a cracked article level theory of unified Pixar. That's a neat idea and everything, but it doesn't really affect how I feel about.

You know, the Incredibles. I mean, it's, you know, what it comes right down to is sometimes when a lot of people say something is good, it's because it's good. Not because they've been deluded or because, you know, they've been bamboozled into believing something's good or they don't have, you know, the discerning tastes that you might have. It might actually be.

because it's good. And hence why we came up with a descriptor for other movies, not this one. It might not be good, but it might be great. Because... What is great about that is in the absolute failure of what they were attempting to do, they managed to come up with these moments that transcend the story they were attempting to tell. They're just so bonkers that you're like...

Well, I like it because of these wild moments that happen within. It doesn't make the movie good. There are good movies and there are not so good movies. This is a great movie. Yes. There's like no asterisk accept or anything like that. No, no, no.

But it does turn out at the end of this that these people are the new Avengers. That should be noted. Two movies in a row for me. For them to end up the new Avengers was quite an odd turn. Yeah, I was just like, David Harbour, what are you doing here? Technically, he should not have a super soldier serum yet. And yet he shows up in the red uniform and starts punching people through their face. It's a whole schmear. But we're not here to talk about that.

I just, like you said, you know, when we had chatted back and forth, because you had mandated, as soon as you're out of the theater, we need to talk. So we texted. I mean, I text you a couple times. Have you seen it yet? Have you seen it yet? Have you seen it yet? You're like, no, I haven't seen it yet. This is one of those movies that unfortunately this can had to be kicked a full three weeks.

I had tickets for a Saturday showing. That didn't end up happening. I had pushed it to a Monday. We got a gig. Then I pushed it to the following weekend. Then there's this whole... thing that we ended up having to do with that was a different gig and and then um ollie had these volleyball tryouts that i kicked that Then Ollie's movie got into this film festival and I had in-laws in town and I had to get kicked past that. So like this movie had my money for the first weekend. It just.

I didn't end up seeing it until well after the fact. So I was supporting it financially before I was supporting it with my eyeballs. Imagine, imagine, you know, you know, inviting your in-laws to go see it and not knowing that, that, that somebody uses a phrase, your tongue in my coos. I mean, these are the same in-laws that, you know, made it a point. to go to see Nosferatu with me. Ooh. Yes. Ooh. So they're watching, and he's like, oh, baby, one more time.

is going on. That's way more subtle than anything that's said or happens here. You don't got no mouth spitting than that. There's a whole different level of love language that's happening in this with these particular vampires. Oh, wow. You know, and you know, and, and, and, and, you know, talk about actors being committed to the bit. Real spit. Real spit. Hey.

I think Haley Stanfield, I think she has a lot going on when she's on screen. I think she's a genuine fucking movie star. And I found this.

engaging. And we have not nearly said enough about Michael B. Jordan. Michael B. Jordan. the acting awards this man deserves. And I sure hope he gets because who else is fucking doing this? He is acting with, for long stretches with. Just himself. He's handing himself fucking cigarettes. And that alone. would be worthy of praise. But the fact that he makes these very similar, closely hewn twin brothers into separate, clearly separate entities in terms of their wants and needs.

They have a lot in common, but their differences are pronounced and very specific. And that he is able to bounce in between them to create these individual characters on screen. is absolutely mind-boggling. He is fucking legend status right now with me. Yeah, I think it's interesting that this year we have... two horror movies in, in which, uh, one actor plays twins and, and cause we have also had the monster.

And well, I guess technically the monkey have two actors playing twins because they play one one actor playing them as a child. And then and particularly in the monkey with the the child actor. again, does a absolutely stunning job of playing two distinct characters. And I mean, that's hard. That's hard. It's really hard. I mean, let me think.

at how like you know you know how often you know twins in a movie are just played by the same actor just like you know one combs his hair forward the other combs his hair back or you know one wears a mustache It's like, no, there's a little more to playing identical twins than a slight difference in their appearance. But in that, the advantage is that this is this very episodic story where we get these small segments of the plot chopped up into bits and pieces.

And so it is intentionally constructed along that manner to make that a little bit easier for its performers. And here, aside from them splitting up. to do separate chores early in the movie. They're predominantly acting with one another, meaning he and a different body double are doing these things and then swapping. to do that same scene and make that make sense through action, through dance sequences, through musical sequences, through fights.

It's just absolutely mind-boggling. And I can't think of too many other directors who could manage this level of technical and story. prowess like kugler is on a different fucking planet for me right now um and i can't what is so wonderful is that he's on his own planet and you have all these other filmmakers who are doing all these other individual types of movies at this level.

And at their own different speed and pace and with design. If you're telling me this is a shitty time for movies, I'm sorry. You're not trying hard enough to find the good ones. You're not letting it happen. There's plenty of dreck at any point in Hollywood system. Is there a higher percentage of dreck now? Yeah, probably. But I promise you.

you know, during whatever year the Wizard of Oz, you know, came out, there was also like a Minecraft level shitty, you know, piece of film that delighted the fuck out of people. Well, yeah, and I got, like, this is probably, and you said you went to go see the AMC, so you had, like, 25 minutes of credits of trailers.

fair amount too more than usual for Alamo but I mean to me there wasn't a clinker in the bunch The two that I was most intrigued by were Bring Her Back, which is the next movie from the folks who did Talk to Me, which we spoke highly of. And a movie with...

Dave Franco and Alison Brie called Together, which is the perfect trailer in that it gives nothing away. Yes. Except it looks, whatever's going on, it looks very creepy. And the other one that... is in this miasma is Targets from the same writer director as Barbarian and yes that one also feels like Holy shit. And him, which Jordan Peele's producing. Yes, and another one, right. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, my God. So people have taken big fucking swings.

Yeah, but also at the same time, we have, like I said, another Final Destination movie. Fine. We even have another Killer Clown movie coming out. Based on a book that people love, and I've heard good things. you never know when something might surprise you because I was like looking at hard eyes and thinking, listen,

I should love every part of this, but are they really going to be able to pull this off? And they fucking did. So, like, holy hell. You know, Wolfman was a big sweep. It was a miss for me, but. It was a swing. But it wasn't terrible. No, no, no, no. It just could have been more than it was. But, you know, I mean, basically what I'm trying to say is if you're looking around and sniffing at me and you're like, well...

you horrors in a bit of a rut right now. Shut the fuck up. Oh, fuck that. Fuck your rut. That is absolutely so factually false. I can't even begin. All I hear when I hear that is, is there's too many. too much horror involving non-white people and women and and i mean i know that we we we harped on this before, but the more that people complain about the current state of horror, the less interested I am in hearing it.

I don't believe they're watching it to enjoy it. They're part of the hate industrial complex and they are trying to chase clout amongst a group of people who their only community is... to light tiki torches yeah they they are you know looking for stuff to complain about and honestly in you know the way things are in the world right now the last fucking thing i want to hear is anybody's petty complaints

About, you know, how movies are and aren't these days. So, there's not much of a choose-your-own-death venture we get. Yeah. I mean, you could get like bitten by a vampire. You get lit up by the song. You get shot a bunch of times. Yeah. You get blown up by a grenade. I guess blown up by a grenade. I mean, technically, well, yeah, no. I mean, like, he throws a grenade in the truck at the end. Oh, I guess technically, though...

Annie was bitten, she does get staked to death. Yes, she gets staked while still. That's why I'm choosing Grenade. You want to die quick? I'd rather go, oh no! And then that's my last thought. Yeah, I guess. I mean, can I choose my own undeath adventure? Sure, why not? Or do I have to actually die? No, I think that's worthy too. I mean, you know, if I get to hang out with someone cool, you know, I don't mind spending like 50 years as a vampire.

I mean, I, I realized, I realized I wouldn't be able to pull off, you know, wearing the, the, the top knot ponytail and the little like leather eight ball jacket. It's a hell of a fucking outfit. Yeah. Stacks Cosby sweater is working. I do, I do, I do love the, again, this got a big laugh out of the audience, the stack knuckle ring. I love that they kept up with the fashion.

Yeah, it's such a good touch. And the way Remick goes, right, with part of a guitar in his head and the sun hitting him and becoming a tornado of flame. Again, a reason. For all these people to stand around as the sun comes up because they don't have free thought once he's in charge of them. And he's so focused on taking out Sammy. It's just so much.

So better motivated. I don't want to compare the movies, but for this alone, this is such a better motivated, a whole bunch of vampires explode at the same time sequence. than the new Salem's Lot version. It's just not great. And again, though, it does have some similar aspects, which they are all... you know, in his thrall, you know, they, they all, you know, hide out in the, the drive-in, which is the stupidest fucking idea I've ever heard in my life.

Truly. I mean, in the book where they're all hiding out in their houses, that makes much more sense. Why do they all have to be in... basements for christ's sakes yeah why do they all have to be in the same spot but yeah so like that that actually is you know in comparison is now an even worse movie to me because of how

uninspired it is. I mean, yes, obviously there are very few new approaches you can take to the concept of a vampire movie at this point. Yet, this movie.

It works really hard to take... Well, while still relying on a few very tried and true tropes, like, again, vampires needing to be invited in somewhere, you know, they still manage to feel fresh because of... course that you know i like i said before i don't know that anybody has ever approached that where you know if you are you turn into a vampire you know why wouldn't you need to be re-invited in yeah

to somewhere and how awkward that would be. And, you know, him trying to pull the remake, you know, oh, you know, you know, let's just, you know, let's just let me come in so we can all get along. I'm talking about peace. loving togetherness and they're only looking at it like what are you talking about and in a certain way like any you know fascist dictator They are all happy because they don't have individual control of their thoughts and actions. He's able to use them as pawns in his game.

It is so much easier to have someone tell you what to do. It's just, what a film. Josh Hall says all of our artwork. Go to revengebodymemphis at bandcamp.com for this theme and all of our remixes. Rate and review us on iTunes. Go and talk to us on YouTube or Spotify. We love to hear what you think of the movie. Always keep in mind spoilers.

This is a new one. It won't be as new when this episode comes out. We're doing this advance. And then our Patreon where we have plenty of bonus episodes for you, including chat by chat, bonus movies, and commentary. And Gina, where can people find you on these here internets? I write about movies and television and pop culture at my Substack. Gina watches things at substack.com. And I am...

I kind of didn't take a little bit of a break with social media, but you can still find me around under Gina does today. People check it out. Here's one last thought I'm going to leave with y'all. I should have put this in higher in the movie, in the discussion, but I just,

Remember that I did not bring it up. As of the time we were recording this, just a day ago, or a few days ago now, a gay bar in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. was rated by authorities. They called it a compliance check. But instead of a couple officers checking IDs and making sure that they had their license fully displayed, it's 20 officers.

They marched these patrons who were doing nothing but having a good time, a legal good time, out into the rain while they did this to intimidate them, to say to them, This space is not safe for you. It was designed to be, but we have the authority to make it unsafe. And I don't think this is going to be an anomaly. I think this is going to be a reality going forward.

And so while we cannot protect you from a lot of things in this world, this show is a safe space for you. I will do everything in my power to make it safe for you. And I can't make life safe for you. But the time we spend together, I want to make as safe as possible. If we find something that is said or done.

In service of that to not make you feel safe, please let me know so that I can correct it and correct the way I'm doing things because that's important to me. We have to watch out for one another right now. Believe me, everything in our power to make this time together feel like a place you can go to and not worry about some things for just a little while, that's our aim. Okay?

Yeah, I mean, we're pretty goofy a lot of times, but we actually really care about our audience. And we care about putting on a good show for you guys. And we are constantly talking about how we can make the show better and more. inclusive and everything that we i mean we're we're just a couple of out-of-touch old people but we are but we are but we are doing the best that we can to to to listen to the youth and and and you know and make everybody feel

feel you know welcome and and a part of the silliness and that's our goal and the best we can doesn't mean that we're perfect when we're imperfect please let us know so that we can make it better because that's what we want to do for ourselves, for you, for our community, what we all build together.

It's important to us. And it's important that we celebrate what's happening right now that's good and not just point out these terrible things that are happening around us. It's important that we know. It's important that we prepare. But it's also important that we're given the freedom to have a moment to just enjoy. Because there can be joy within these terrible times. And remember, they don't like it when we're happy.

So be as happy as you possibly can be. Your joy is something I enjoy. And so with that being said, don't worry, folks. The body count will continue. For myself and for Gina, bye-bye, everybody.