Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, dying time is here. That's right. We're talking about companion on Kill by Kill. Well, greetings and salutations, Internet. It's your old pal, Patrick Hamilton, coming to you once again from this lake in the middle of nowhere.
This is the Kill by Kill podcast, where we're dedicated to celebrating the least discussed component of any horror film, the characters. And as always, there's only one person I trust to know the right place behind my ear to reboot me. The one, the only. Gina Radcliffe. How are you doing today, Gina? You've got that voice pitch set at... No. Not that. I've got it set to slurring like I'm drunk, but no, it's just I'm mentally incapacitated. You've got to set it late night, DJ.
I wish I could make bucks on this voice. But again, that's another job that the computers are going to take away from me. So I don't know what to do about that. And this is a weird movie to talk about right now. I'll be honest with you. Well, I mean, I think it's very timely. Yes. In a very cynical and depressing way. Not on the part of the filmmakers, just, you know, it is hard not to look at this through the lens of...
current events and current attitudes, let's say. Yes. So I, very briefly, cause I don't know that there's much of this movie that really can be conversed about without giving away spoilers. And obviously. It's only been out for a couple of weeks. And so if people want to bounce out, but they want what our take is on the movie, a yay, a nay.
a, you know, Gina Radcliffe trademark, it's fine. We should probably let them know up front and then we can move on to more spoilery convos. So what are your top level? Overall impressions of 2025's Companion. I liked it very much. And the more I've thought about it in the three or four days I've seen, I've actually liked it more. I found it. For a debut screenwriter slash director, this is very confident. And had a very hard to maintain balance of being funny.
And also being extraordinarily unsettling at times. Yes. I think this is a fantastic script and a fantastic set of actors making it come to life. The director here. This is a first feature film. He's primarily worked in television. This is a project he's kind of had in his back pocket here for just a little bit. And it was the right place, right time. With a script like this.
It really says to me he knew exactly what he wanted to do coming into it. I don't think this is particularly flashy in its direction. sense. He's trying to stay out of the way. He's letting the words, ideas, and people bringing it to life be centered on screen, and that is to its benefit. quite good as far as that's concerned. It's a tight, fun plot. It does leave you with something more than just its first twist because there was a lot of hubbub as there almost always is at least 15.
times a year of people yelling, please stop spoiling everything in the trailer. And I'm here to tell you as an older person, not that old, but I am older than some, they've always spoiled everything. To me, this is an Abigail situation. That one twist is not what the movie's about. It's just an on-ramp. Exactly. It is a twist, but there are multiple twists. Right. And it is a twist that reveals itself within the first...
I mean, there are definitely hints. Yes, they keep talking about it. Right. And then it is pretty much revealed within the first 25 minutes of the movie. Yeah. I believe I said, well, I may have said it in a future episode, so you may not have heard it yet because we're trying to do the show in advance now so that it's not all rush, rush, rush. I had sort of guessed what the initial twist was going to be in a text to you. When that teaser came out...
Here's my, can I think, say out loud what I think this is going to be? And you said, yes. And I guessed it correctly. And then when we saw this trailer again before Wolfman and it. reveals that one twist that I guessed correctly, I made an additional guess as to what that would be. And I was right about that too. It didn't matter. My enjoyment of the movie was seeing how the story unfurled, not the story details themselves. Right, exactly. Yeah, no, it didn't, you know, my expectation of what...
what was an aspect of this movie. And it is just an aspect. It's not what the entire movie is about. It was not affected by knowing that, going into it. I'm sure that the perfect way to see this is at a film festival where all you're told on the ticket is companion and everything else. is absolutely new to you. And that would be great for all of us, but you can't get people to movie theaters with that. That is a rare bird that happens every once in a while.
Most movies need to tell people this is kind of what you should expect. Yeah, I mean, when you are paying upwards of $18 to $20 a ticket. Now, for me, I have a membership program, so it's like $2 a ticket for me. But most people don't do that. People, you know. There's a fine line between I don't want to be spoiled on this and I'm going to go in completely blind to what this movie is about. And I think, as you say, you know, most people are not convinced.
that you come see this movie, you'll like it. What's it about? Well, I'm not going to tell you. No, I need to know what it's about. Yeah, but I don't want to spoil it for you. Well, I'm not going to come see. I'm not going to go watch it. And every once in a while, like a barbarian will happen where it's just in this perfect pocket to have just enough awareness where people are intrigued. And then everyone says, oh, you should.
go see that but it's just too busy of a marketplace currently and and we've complained about it i think on a different maybe on patreon it's just a sort of a car wreck of horror movies right now not in terms of quality in terms of volume yeah i mean this this opened the same weekend as hard eyes opened the weekend before oh did it but they're opening back to back which i don't think
either of the many favors because they're both critically well reviewed and they're both audience pleasers and they're both dealing, you know, timed to be in and around here. to coalesce around Valentine's Day, and I think they're cannibalizing each other. Right, and Hard Eyes is doing okay. but better than companion. So I think a lot of people.
You did say, well, you know, I only want to spend $20 this week to see one movie. So I'm going to see the one that, you know, I see more what I'm getting up front. Right. Yeah. And, you know, hard eyes is leaving its heart on its sleeve in terms it's telling you exactly what you're going to get. And I think the reaction that I'm seeing to it online is.
This is what I wanted to see. And it absolutely delivers that with a plum. I would also note companion is exactly what I wanted to see. And it also delivers it with a plum. So if you have the opportunity. I would encourage people to go. And it sounds like Hard Eyes is worth it too. I haven't had a chance to go see it yet. We will eventually get to it. But again,
This would normally, when we would be, this would be perfect that we would have companion and heart eyes in the same month. But we also have the monkey coming out in two weeks. It's. too many and then sinners is almost literally right after it just it's it's a lot of stuff but it also seems to be all quality yeah i mean and and You keep seeing stuff being announced, like Robert Eggers' next movie is going to be a werewolf movie set in 13th century England.
You've just got a lot of, that's not coming out until way next year. But, you know, I mean, it's a nice balance to, you know, here's a killer Popeye movie you can watch the first four seconds of. Except we can't call it Popeye because we only have the image. We only have the right to use the image. Yes. We can't call it Popeye. So we call him Grumpy Sailor Man or something.
All this does to me is say in my heart, like, yeah, maybe everyone should retain their copyrights forever. Because if this is what you're going to do with it, what's the fucking point? Why were they protected in the first place? Or why aren't they protected completely so that someone who actually wanted to do something with Popeye could do something with it instead of this?
Or the ridiculous fucking Steamboat Willie horror movie. I just, come on, man. This is crazy. It's fine to do that with one movie. But then whenever they say, oh, well, all these properties are going to be the public domain, and then you have, they're all like, well, it's a really filthy, disgusting version of this beloved childhood character.
And he's going around killing a bunch of people. It's like, can you put, you know, just a modicum of thought and originality into, I mean, there's got to be a way you can do it that is clever. And like, you know, something nobody's seen before. But no, they don't want to do that. They want to make it something, you know, quick and on the cheap. And appealing to the people that think that horror is quick, cheap, and mindless.
Yes, and we've weirdly coalesced around this at a very interesting time in our history and our unprecedented times, which keep unprecedented. I'd like some precedented times, please. I really enjoyed those precedented times. We had no idea how good we had it. Let's precedent some times already. Love some precedents. Brother, may I have a crumb of precedents. So now that we have kind of set things up and this is Kill by Kill recommended, absolutely go for it.
Let's get digging. And if you want to say some of these details for yourself, which is fun. These are fun details. I don't blame it. Pause it here. Come back to us after you've seen it or re-download it again. Either way works for us. We're cool. But let's get into spoiler territory. This is a mini meditation guided by Bombas. Repeat after me.
I'm comfy. I'm cozy. I have zero blisters on my toes. And that's because I wear Bombas. The softest socks, underwear, and t-shirts that give back. One purchased equals one donated. Now go to bombas.com. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash listen and use code listen at checkout. I texted to you as I came out of the theater. This is the best domestic abuse via tech movie I've seen since Invisible Man. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You can see where, you know, there are a lot of the influences come.
But also, speaking of that, am I reading too much into when she, at the end of the movie, when she peels the burnt skin off of her, like her... robot hand what was i supposed to think of the movie hardware i mean i went to terminator which is a different robot hand but
I don't think you're off. There's specifically a scene in which, not Dermot Moroney, the other Dermot, Dylan McDermott, who has a robot hand, and he is having... sex or making out with his his girlfriend in the shower and there is a fairly memorable shot of like his robot arm on her back and i just thought of that for some reason i'm like i don't know if that was intentional but i you know It wasn't unintentional either. I think we have a filmmaker who cares about...
his influences and images. He's obviously referencing things. There's a lot of intention behind what he's delivering here. The color palette, how he chooses to film things in certain medium shots, how we let stuff. play out between actors and lets the action be character motivating. There's a lot of stuff here that's very intentional, very specific, and it was nice to see. craft on display in a successful attempt, especially after the second thing I, like, I.
Love seeing a new movie that we're going to talk about on the show and we don't have to like, it's okay. Or rip it to shreds. I don't know that we ripped Wolfman to shreds. No, but we were just kind of like, eh. It's a bummer because the guy had like such a fucking streak going.
And it wasn't, Wolfman wasn't bad. It was disappointing. Yes. Yes, I agree. And this could have been disappointing because there's not much propping it up in terms of, well, I know what I'm going to get from this guy. I don't know what. to get from this guy. He's done a lot of TV work and hey, all praise to him. But he hadn't really established himself.
And it felt like what they were really trying to push was the idea that, okay, the barbarian producers got on board with this. And as such, if you liked that, there's going to be... that kind of storytelling happening in here. And there is, this is a strong script forward, performer forward motion picture. Yeah, it is very nice to see a horror movie.
that could lead into some uncomfortable conversations. Yeah. And I think that that is very much happening here while also still being very funny and very clever. As I kind of alluded to in our opening minutes, if this came down to killer robot movie, I don't think it would be anywhere near as entertaining or interesting. to watch or talk about. That is merely the first reveal that is the runway for the actual movie. Because that's less what the movie is about than it is that is just...
one other element of what the movie in total is about. And she, in truth, is not a very good murder robot. No, she's not. I mean, because it is... obey the three laws of robotics. They're not supposed to kill humans. And he literally, Josh, who is Jack Quaid's character, who is, I guess he's her owner? Because, you know, like she was designed for him. Yes. And up until a certain point, she doesn't know that she's a robot. She just, you know, everything, it's very much Blade Runner-y in that.
She has memories implanted in her, and she has a very rom-com, neat, cute memory of how they first met. And all that feels authentic to her, but it isn't. In order to get this plan and motion to steal money from a friend's sugar daddy, he has to interfere with her programming to get her to react violently. to someone attempting to assault her, which is kind of unnerving because it's like, okay, so meaning before that you could have raped her and she would have just laid there and taken it.
Right. Yes. There's elements of this that are quite disturbing because while we're not shown what they are, it's almost as if it's teeing it up. This could have been worse. This entire idea is so much worse than what it is being, than this small slice of it that we're presenting. A lot of it is when, you know, later you think about it, you're like, oh, because it's so much of it is, ew. It is a really, I mean.
I don't know if we were to use brilliant, but clever way of not telling the audience everything they need to know, kind of leaving it to them to figure out a lot of the aspects of it, which I appreciate. It is leading you towards those things. It is doing that thing where it tells the audience just enough where they're like, it clicks into place just before it's actually revealed on screen. And so you feel like, hey.
I'm picking up what this movie's putting down and it's rewarding me with revelations that back up what I'm... assuming or making the leap is what not necessarily going to happen next, but what is going to be revealed next. And the other satisfying part to that is that it's in service of this other plot. That's not what the movie's about. Just like if all Megan was.
was that to kill a robot movie i don't think it would have been as popular and i don't think we would have enjoyed it as much as we did it was a funny comedy it was thought-provoking it had all this element about grief
and what we put in between one another to avoid discomfort. And this movie traffics in all that in and amongst what is one... person's truly stupid plan to steal money right and it you know a lot of it has to do with the whole you know i'm very i'm always very fascinated by by movies you involve cyborgs or humanoid robots that, you know, basically comes down to what does it mean to be human? So you've got like AI, which this movie, again, very lifted a lot from.
You've got Ex Machina, which again, there are a lot of aspects of that. Blade Runner. So much of what this character, Iris, who's a Sophie Thatcher character, experiences. comes down to the very stubborn and sinister mindset of, well, she's just an object. It doesn't matter. Yeah. So, you know, like getting back to the question of, you know, changing her setting so that she will...
violently fight back against to the point of murdering someone who is attempting to assault her. Like, you know, the idea was that they didn't have to have that because she's a robot. She doesn't have to consent. Yeah. That to me is just so unnerving because to me it is a hair's breadth away from attitude you see a lot with incel community and people who are big, let's say.
Elon Musk supporters who like to use a little phrase called NPCs to refer to people they don't think matter. They're subhuman. You can do whatever you want to them. You can think whatever you want to them. It doesn't matter. They don't have feelings. And I feel like so much of that has been lifted and added to this. And to me, as a woman, it's impossible to separate that.
from this i think a lot of what this movie and you teed it up perfectly comes down to are two words permission and empathy now Most horror movies employ empathy, meaning, in fact, all good art does. But we're drawn into a situation by presenting people or events that...
Urges to identify and empathize with characters so that we're worried about them. What happens to them? We're worried about their relationships. We're worried about their safety. We're worried. Have they gotten in over their heads? It doesn't matter if it's a comedy. horror western that empathy is what creates connection via art so whether or not a robot should
be employed in an emotional relationship with a human being is weirdly kind of besides the point here. Because in the world of the film, that's happened. We have crossed that Rubicon. The big reveal, like I would say at this point, it's not much of a spoiler that Iris is a robot. The big reveal, at least in my audience, is that... Patrick is a robot. Right, yeah. And yet they're dropping all the same hints about him they're dropping about Iris. But...
Iris is one of the two main characters, so you're focused on her up until the point where it becomes something that needs to be discussed, that Patrick is in fact a robot. But even weirder, the fact that... He has realized that he is a robot. He already knows. So, yeah, let's assume this is the near future. Sure. So, you know, robot companions exist. Presumably they are.
Rather expensive, but that is not unusual for people to be in relationships with them at this point. Sure. Yeah, they're a little uncomfortable around Iris, but... That may just be because, you know, they know what's going to happen and, you know, they're feeling a little distant and weirded out by her. But, you know, basically the reveal of Patrick being a robot as well.
is that you've got these two couples who are sort of two sides of the same coin in that Eli, who is Patrick's human partner, has come to love Patrick. And has accepted Patrick as close to a real person as he's going to get. They're in a genuine relationship. which has give and take. Right. The only thing that has really prevented this conversation has been honesty. You're not supposed to, it's just not something you're supposed to talk about. But because...
Patrick has existed for so much longer than the newer generations of companion robots have. He's just smart enough to pick up on all the signs and... It's his one doubt. And it's the one thing that Eli won't talk about. And it takes this incident for Eli to say, hey, I would never use you this way. This is wrong. This is bad. I actually don't want to be involved in it. We're in our heads, but we can walk away from this shit. This is not our issue.
What we have is more important than this other drama. And it's a really... interesting counterbalance what isn't a relationship that is based on truth or any sort of give and take that iris and josh have yeah we have these two key scenes are kind of repeated where patrick tells Eli that he feels like he understands what love is and that he believes that he is in love with Eli and that Eli feels the same. And then you have Josh who is just...
absolutely repulsed by the idea of actually feeling love for Iris. She feels that she loves him. And to me, the absolute most bone-chilling scene in this entire movie is the absolute pleasure he is getting out of telling her that she's a robot. Like, he is relishing. watching her fall apart in front of him. And I'm like, you bitch. I can't wait until that Chekhov corkscrew is employed. Especially the way it's timed, the way it goes in and comes out is...
is very thought out. There's a lot of thought out elements to this. And you're absolutely right. He does not appreciate what she is. He does not appreciate what she does. She's doing all the work. It's like he, it's like he resents her presence. But, and he requests, he pays for it monthly. And it's like, it's like, where the fuck are you bought her? Why are you, like, why are you?
feel like this like she was forced upon you part of this is just inherent to his internal dissatisfaction with everything no matter what he has no matter what when we don't know what he has accomplished or done we're presented a person who's just simply dissatisfied. And I think he's probably toxic going into this, but it's only curdled even more because...
What he thinks is going to solve his problems is being able to have somebody who is there for him. And then he just, in turn, hates that person who is there for him.
He is already broken before she shows up, and he just breaks more and more and more to the point where he will use her to kill a guy, to steal his money, convinced he's... a some sort of gangster and he very well might be but he's made his money in sod farming and this brings me to my next revelation about this which is whatever happened in this world Going green just managed to increase everyone's envy. I guess so, yeah. Because there's not...
any fossil fuel on display in this entire thing, everything is very, very electronic. The skies are very, very blue. We've solved that one problem, but we've created all these other problems. Yeah, this guy you would think is some sort of weird Croatian gangster who has made his money in human trafficking. And it turns out he's just a very successful sod farmer. And you're like, okay.
You can make that much money in sod. This is a very different economy than anything we're necessarily used to. But he's also got a shit ton of money in a safe. Yeah, I mean, like, everybody... One can assume that Josh must have some level of high income job because he could afford this. very high-tech robot girlfriend and he has a self-driving car and and yes you know just like none of this none of this is is really explained and it kind of also adds to the context of
What have you got to complain about? Why are you so miserable? And it can't possibly be him. So it has to be all these other factors. And so he puts no work into himself and he hates the other person in his life. who puts all her work into him. I'll be honest with you, in terms of like acting stuff, Jack Quaid has a gift. Now, I'll grant you, it is one he has inherited, but...
He uses it very well. He's not afraid to look like an asshole on screen. And he can be very charming in a ton of movies and TV projects. And he has and will that capacity. to be more than just bland, cute white guy, is what pushes him past the Nepo baby stage and into the realm of long-term actor. Like in 25 years, he'll be...
playing presidents and shit. I mean, we won't have a democracy to portray, but I'm sure there'll be like historical sci-fi and shit. Yeah, he is a... This character is loathsome. Absolutely loathsome. He takes on... The element, the curdled elements of his Scream 5 character and really, really amps it up here. He is terrible. And he's also very stupid. He's an incredibly short-sighted and stupid person. Yeah, he's a toxic combination. And again, you see this on social media all the time.
of someone who is very dumb, doesn't realize how dumb they are, very arrogant and pathologically entitled. And just not afraid when it comes down to it. to use anything within his reach to truly ruin other people's lives and ends up killing everyone else in this movie but like one tech guy. One tech guy gets away.
And everyone else is dead because of him. Josh is emotionally stunted. He's unable to think past himself. He's a real dick. And he's certainly yearning for real connection, but he can't even make. the artificial one that he has, work because of him. And then he sees what he feels is a... quick and easy out, and he never considers for one second that this is all being recorded by the two robots he's hanging out with. Because he, typical, he doesn't read the owner's manual.
This is just something, you know, she is a toy to him where, you know, gets what he wants and doesn't figure out how to play with it properly. And then when he doesn't need it anymore, he decides he's going to destroy it. And what I keep latching on to is how much he resents her existence. And how it's somehow her fault that he needs to resort to a robot girlfriend and a robot lover. That somehow she's responsible for this.
All Iris does for the first half of the movie is try to give Josh what he wants. And it turns out that Josh wants what he believes he deserves using tech as his shortcut. And you don't really even have to shroud him in tech, bro. to understand that these incredible advancements have afforded him nearly nothing in terms of his soul, or his life, or his quality of life. He's...
being babied, and then demanding adult rewards. And Iris is his AI shortcut to what he feels he's owed. Right. He wants the perfect passive girlfriend who...
It's constantly telling him how much, not even how much she loves him, how much she needs him. And when she does that, he's disgusted by it. Her desire to... please him and for him to be happy just makes him angrier and angrier and angrier and on the flip side of this you have some very human performances from people first and foremost from sophie thatcher as iris who i think was born with more quick twitch muscle in her face than like seabiscuit head and his entire body
She does a lot with her face. This is not any form of critique of her negatively. I think she has. silent movie star level expressionism going on in her face. And she can convey so much in such a tight period of time. And she's been given a very difficult task here. Just like she did in Heretic, she fucking runs away with it. Yeah, from the minute she's on screen, you empathize with her. And I think there's a lot of pitfalls you can walk into this.
And then you have Harvey Gillen from What We Do in the Shadows and Lucas Gage, who we last discussed on the program, smashing his own face in Smile 2, and their relationship with one another. is very heartfelt, very deeply felt. And, you know, yes, it is artificial, but it's also been going on so long. That whatever artificiality is there are merely road bumps into their true personalities, wants, and desires. Because...
While Patrick was programmed to love Eli, Eli has learned to love Patrick. So is that moral? Is that right? In this movie, it's already fucking happened. But my empathy is with the people who can actually be truthful and express that to one another rather than someone who hates this machine that he bought to make him happy. Right. And it got me to thinking, when you see a lot of people online who, particularly right now, in a period where the bad guys...
You seem to be winning right now. I'm using the term right now because I'm hoping that it's temporary. I have to assume that it's temporary. Otherwise, I'm just going to go live in a cave for the next hundred years. But the thing that I find fascinating is they are currently winning. They are currently getting what they want. And still just constant bitching.
complaining, grievance airing, insisting that they are not being treated fairly. And it's just like, oh, I get it. You are incapable of happiness. And your inability to be happy is why we're at where we are right now. And I think that that's a sort of toxic inability to be satisfied and be happy and be... grateful for what you have instead of constantly feeling like you've been cheated and you've gotten a raw deal out of life. It's just like, it's caused.
More damage, I think, to culture and society in general than possibly anything else. Yeah. Part of it is like a society in which we have viewed tech as a shortcut to... to communication, to business, to all these things. And in many ways it is. But when it comes to all this AI stuff, it can work in so many ways to alleviate.
tedious tasks that would free us up to be more productive. But that's not sexy. That's not what earns people trillions of dollars. That is the only thing they view as success. When I looked at this and thought about it more and more, like I don't consider myself particularly clever. You know, I'm like smart about some things. I'm dumb about others, whatever. But as someone who has relied on my creativity to have a career in the entertainment business for as long as I have.
Any second, that'll come to an end. I find this movie struck quite a nerve when it comes to AI shortcuts. While I may have called a couple of the twists here and there, what it comes down to is... All the important interesting things about this movie are human. All the interesting things about Patrick and Iris are human. The way the film is constructed. is not something that a computer gives you. It's what someone sits down and thinks.
This would be fun, especially at this moment in time. That'll be a fun reveal. And then we do this, and then, and then, and then, and then. That's a human characteristic of storytelling. That's not something. that a large language model can teach you. For most of this, it's like... You're viewing this as a shortcut between you and satisfaction instead of finding ways to have life be more satisfactory.
And we're constantly being sold the first because that's a commodity. And the second one is hard to earn money, frankly. Right. And, you know, you can't even call Josh a tech bro. Because he didn't design her. She's a toy he bought. She's like a new iPhone where he has it at the settings he wants. I thought...
you know, among the other, among the many clever aspects was that you see where she was set at. Like her intelligence was set at 40%. I did do a write-up about this for my newsletter that will be up when this goes up. Where, you know, I noted that that's probably, you know, just smart enough where she can hold a conversation. But, you know, not smart as him and definitely not smarter than him.
You know, another thing I know is she doesn't really have much of a sense of humor because other than to laugh at his jokes, because we know that's bad. When these guys say they want a girl with a sense of humor, they mean I want a girl who will laugh at my jokes. Not a girl who can make me laugh or might be funnier than me. Whereas I know that Becky is funnier than me, so whenever I get her to laugh, that is incredibly satisfying. Right, because you are confident in your best.
Sure. And don't look at, you know, a woman, you know, any woman being better than you at something as some sort of indictment of who you are as a man. You know, I thought it was interesting that you could change your companion's vocal range. And as we know, men have strong opinions on women's voices. You know, you asked me how I know this. So, you know, but it just, it's all there. There's so many, you know, tiny little smart moments in this. And I think that also.
What a lot of this comes down to is that, you know, yeah, it's great and fascinating that these robots are sort of learning what it means to have emotions, but not really. Because, you know, Iris understands what it means to have a broken heart. Josh tells the truth about her. Patrick learns what guilt and grief feel like. Because he's reprogrammed at a certain point by Josh to make Josh the object of his affections as part of trying to chase down Iris because Josh...
I guess he doesn't think he doesn't feel up to the challenge of doing it himself. So Eli is killed. Yeah, he reprograms Patrick. To make Josh the love of his life and essentially now you're going to do everything I tell you. Because control is ultimately the only thing that does satisfy him. Right, and he's going to let, you know, why not let this machine do his dirty work for him? Because he was already going to let the other machine do his dirty work for him.
This is his tech sort of, you know, jumpstart. This connects the dots. This is his workaround. I tell this machine to do it because I am not capable, smart, strong. willful enough to actually do this on my own. It has to be these other things. And the fact that he has to rely on it in multiple facets is also what makes him so fucking angry.
But he is caught in a goddamn loop, man. Are we all just our programming when it... comes down to it is that the way he was hard-coded or could he have ever learned to get out of that shame spiral and appreciate the the life he has because If he did, he probably would not have as difficult a time as he does finding a real person, a partner in his life. It's going to be really hard for Iris and Patrick to do in some respects because they're going to be the same age. And then this person also.
grows older and older. They're weird tech vampires. Right. It's a fascinating, complex movie for what is ultimately an unsuccessful home invasion heist flick. And it's funny at times. Yeah, I think it's a really, really marvelous job of balancing different genres. While also, as you say, being very thoughtful and being very unsettling at times.
For a lot of the movie that I kept coming back to is like, is it Death Trap? Yes. Yeah, Death Trap. Because that's like, it's very stagey because it was like a stage play. But it's that very trapped in one location sort of idea where... Every so often what you think is going on is changing. And in that is just its allegiances and plans and counter plans and subterfuge and all that. And here there's there's elements of that. It's a very dumb sub. Yeah, yeah.
So much of the dynamics constantly change because no one knows how to operate these things that they live with every single day. It becomes this storytelling via drop-down menu and prompts. And Josh always... seemed shocked anew. And again, it just shows you how out of his depth he is with all of this. Because, you know, at one point, we've forgotten how much of the other character was his cat.
who is Sergei, the Russian guy's mistress and sugar baby. She's the side chick. Yeah, she decides that she's had enough of all this. I believe this is after Eli has been killed. And so Josh tells Patrick to stop her, and Patrick just kills her. He just has a knife in his hand, and Josh is, like, shocked at this.
And it's like, you have no idea what these things are capable of. You threw a bunch of money. I mean, yeah, he didn't pay for Patrick. You understand nothing about how these machines work. Or what happens if you fuck with their machinery? You don't understand the slightest. He's moving fast and breaking things, and the things he's breaking are human lives. Right. I do appreciate that cats die. Words are, can you just shut the fuck up for 10 seconds?
One of my favorite things is when Eli goes, have you two been sleeping together? She's like, ew, ew. Ew, what do you mean ew? Honestly, Kat's right. Kat is based. Kat is so unnerved in so many respects because she's having a weekend away and she goes... You just remind me of how replaceable I am. You know, Iris's mind...
This is a very human and vulnerable admission to her because she's so intimidated by Kat. But from Kat's point of view, it is literally, you're coming to take me jobs. Yeah, no, she means it literally. I'm going to be replaced by you. I get it. That would certainly be unnerving to me to share space with a... robot that you know unless you look closely you can't tell yeah and you know she is also vulnerable in that moment because she knows part of the plan is to
tell her boyfriend about this robot and say, why don't you go down and have sex with it? Which is... Which is like, he is fine. She told me this is fine. Again, another permission without empathy to use technology in an improper way. And he walks right in to getting stabbed right in the neck. And I'm telling you, it took me the entire movie and up to the end credits to learn that this person, this actor's name is Rupert Friend and not what I assumed was Orlando Bloom this entire time.
Was very convinced I was right about that. I can't stop thinking about the fact, though, that it would have been okay for him to assault her if Josh didn't fuck with her programming. Like that these robots are just designed to passively accept whatever abuse their owner. wishes to inflict on them which is another thing like there's no she's not she can't lie and i don't think she can defend herself in under original programming in such a way that she can actually
hurt. At best, she might be able to run away. Run away or just go she could brick herself. Her programming bricks. And she's just rigor mortis time. And she's unpliable. And it just takes all the power motif out of it. I don't know. You do wonder if they've even thought. that this is an issue that you can, that you should program into them. It's just left there as we don't end up having to worry about necessarily.
But it's still an assault. Like he's absolutely not going to take the no that she's told him several times as anything other than I think what you mean is yes. It is a fascinating element of what I think is very well thought out and thought provoking. Is it? Horror is the next question I have here. To me, this is just a really great thriller. This is a home invasion, trippy thriller that...
people dressed up as horror to get more butts in seats. Yeah, I would say it's, like, it's not scary. It is exciting in scenes. I think that a good edge-of-your-seat moment is when the cop... pulls her over, and you see Patrick, who has kind of been set to kill mode, is kind of slowly approaching in the background. I think that's pretty well done. That feels a little Jason-y. And absolutely the moment in the teaser that got butts in seats is when she is.
you know, puts her hand out and he puts a candle underneath it and she can feel every element of it, but cannot move her hand. That is straight up horror. Absolutely. I mean, it's a monster mash when it comes down to it of all these different genres. And you have to praise the skill of everyone involved in it to be able to make this. magic trick work. I love the ending. I love that she passes by after she is sort of freed. I'm fascinated by the wardrobe that evidently Josh has selected.
for her which is it kind of reminds me a little bit of the clothes that Margot Robbie wore as Barbie in that they're modest but kind of still sexy but also a little out of time and a little unfashionable. Like, you know, she's got like the little pedal pushers and, you know.
modest headscarf and and then like at the end of the movie when she's choosing her own clothes she's basically wearing jeans and a leather jacket and and i think that that's i think that that's funny and i think that's why that she passes by an older man with a younger female who just basically looks like her. Yeah, she's a variation of the theme. Just with a different hairstyle. And she's kind of like, hey. Flashes like her robot hair.
It's good. It's good. All these performances are good. The direction isn't flashy, but it's trying not to get in the way. What is a complex story? And it just... It was very satisfying all the way across. Yeah, I think that they could have easily just made it into a killer robot movie. They were trying for something more, and I think that they were really successful at it. I agree. It's a fun, fun fucking time.
at the movies. It's fun to have you thinking and possibly be a little disturbed too. I think there's a lot of disquieting subtext to this movie that leaves you with that that horror edge, right? It's not a boo, scare you, and it's not a frighten the living hell out of you. It's a disquieting sci-fi horror.
type of situation where you're left disturbed by what you've learned over the course of the film congrats to everybody involved like they did the they did their job yeah yeah speaking of doing your job Let's transition both into and out of this because there's something that has happened in between our recording sessions that we don't, which we... might allude to a little bit farther down the line, but they were recorded before this. And this is coming out this Friday. So we were treated to...
Director Damien Leone, who is the writer, director of the Terrifier franchise. And he had a complete fucking crash out over the concept of horror. Or entertainment in general being political and... I, my stuff is just entertainment only and there's no politics to it whatsoever. So I don't want to be confronted with it. And I don't care if the actors in my movie and those who support me behind the scenes and those who are Mike.
If they're the target of bigoted hate, can't we all just get along? Because I want to keep making these killer clown movies. And here is an example. Of, well, this companion is not going to make terrifier money. But at the end of the day, it's. Obviously, political, whether or not its aims, which are to make a fun home invasion, is complicated by all these political elements. It is art.
And his reaction to this was absolutely not only sold out, his lead performer, which from everything I can tell is. Those two lead performances are what people are responding to. No one's walking away from those movies going, well, there's a great director. So you're going to throw those two people under the bus to what? Keep.
Bigots buying tickets to your movies? That's really what's fucking important? Yeah, there's a real sense of like, whoa, whoa, whoa, everybody needs to calm down for a minute. We don't have to do this. It's just a movie. We don't have to do this. Basically what it comes down to, if you wisely... Don't spend a lot of time in horror circles on social media. David Howard Thornton, who plays Art the Clown, is a pretty outspoken supporter of, for lack of a better phrase, liberal causes.
and particularly LGBTQ people. And I don't know if people are just, you know, coming in and dropping the F word and the other F word in his posts or whatever. But he put out a statement basically in no uncertain terms telling people. Don't bring your homophobia here. If you don't like it, you can fuck off, basically.
It's his social media feed. He should be allowed to cultivate what it is. And he wants to be protective over a group of people that we also want to be protective over who are constantly harassed. And even if you didn't believe in that, even if you just. didn't want that bigoted shit on your front lawn. It's your front lawn. Right, and I am a little uncertain about why Damien Leone...
felt he had to make this statement. It sort of feels like the fans of the movies came to him complaining that David Howard Thornton was mean to them. Yeah, right. And was rude to his fans and maybe didn't appreciate them or was selling them out for the gay agenda. I don't know. But this sort of feels like smoothing over something that did not need to be smoothed over. And, you know, in the process, yeah, he, as I put it in an article I wrote about it.
He didn't necessarily throw Thornton under the bus, but he pointed the bus in his direction. And I sort of feel like the message is here, you know, you need to stop talking. about politics because it's pissing off our fans. Right. We need those sweet, sweet incel dollars. I know that a large contingency of horror fans are... homophobes, transphobes, sexist, misogynist, whatever. And we got to make sure we don't make them angry. And it's like...
Really? You do? You do? And the wild thing is about every single one of these guys, you probably ask them, like, who are your... who is your horror sort of Mount Rushmore? And all of them are going to say like, well, Carpenter, Craven, Hooper, like all these guys. who are the most political fucking filmmakers of their generation just without a doubt they're not disconnected in any way shape or form to the politics of the time they are
very political filmmakers. And it went over their fucking heads. And that's okay, too. I didn't get it when I was 12 years old. But I'm no longer 12 years old, and I certainly don't make art with the idea that it is... without ramification or is not representative of a fucking time. It's so weird. And the self-inflicted wound. Of going, hey, hey, hey, can't we all just get along during this fascist regime? To me, the idea of saying my movies don't mean anything. It's wild. Is that. Fucking wild.
Fascinating to me. Just denying that there's any greater meaning or subtext. What is so far your life's work? It's weird. Does it like, well, there's no political evaluation or ramification to my movies at all. And it came out on the Girl That's Scary feed. So I don't know which one of those two lovely ladies wrote it. But they're like, who you kill in a horror movie is political.
Who survives in a horror movie is political. And there are elements of this that are not inherently political in the sense that it's not about Congress and it's not about the Supreme Court. But there are elements of this that have been politicized by the worst fucking people out there. Because that's all they have. This is the only thing that brings them happiness. They are the Joshes in this fucking situation. We're the only way.
they can feel something is to tear somebody down and make someone else afraid. And it really... fucking sucks. It is so goddamn unnecessary. I'm sorry that your fee fees are hurt. I'm sorry. But what can you fucking do? None of these people deserve your bigoted bullshit. And Don't bring that to where we are. We don't fucking want it either. And if you view that as politics, fuck you. I'm sorry.
Fuck you. I'm the opposite of Damon Leone. I'm on the fuck you side. Yeah. That shit I don't need in my life. And I have. family members and friends and neighbors and kids that go to my kids school all this shit they don't need any of that fucking thing and if i don't know you and you are one of these groups if you're a human being You don't deserve this shit. It is not something that you asked for by existing. This is artificial. It's made up to divide us and it fucking sucks. So don't.
sit in front of me and go, I just need those racist dollars. I don't. If I lose listeners because they're racist, if I lose views because someone doesn't like that we stand up with the LGBTQ plus community. Whoever they are, they don't deserve this. Black people don't deserve this. Brown people don't deserve this. AAPI people. No one is asking for this shit. You're instituting it. You're making it a fucking thing.
So sorry. Yeah, I mean, the day that I make some sort of statement about, you know, I just want to appeal to everybody, I just... you know, put a pillow over my face. Does Chief prompt me because I have clearly lost my mind? And yeah, we have actually gotten negative reviews by saying...
They're too political. They're too woke. And you know what? We laughed about it and went on our day. I just don't pay it any fucking mind. I had no urge to reach out to this person to say, like, oh, hey, what can we do to bring you back? I don't need the ratings that bad. This is something I do for fun. You know, I get to spend time talking to one of my best friends. So I, you know, I'm not going to debase myself. And that is what he's doing. He's debasing himself.
It's so stupid. It's such an unforced fucking error. Whatever you do, Damien Leone, as if you're listening to this, I will tell you a secret. come closer, these people are incapable of being pleased. They're not satisfied. You could have your next movie, Terrifier 4, whatever it's going to be, have the most heinous shit.
happen to female characters. You can, you know, make one of them a lesbian or make one of them a trans woman and, you know, and have something horrible happen to them. And you know what? They still will be happy. they won't be happy because they don't have, they lack the happiness chip. And they know that and they're going to take it out on everybody as much as possible. It's when you sell.
your friend and your creative partner and the number one reason people see your movies out to try to make some sort of appeal to these Neanderthals. You're just going to be one less friend someday. It is truly disturbing. And ultimately, like, if he just fucking... not worried about it because you are making so much money off of killer clown movies.
I went to a spirit Halloween store last year. There was like two fucking aisles of Art the Clown stuff. In terms of like horror icons and stuff, it's almost like... I like that such a thing exists and I don't necessarily have to be part of it. I didn't have to be part of Saw when that came out. And now we engage with it on our terms. And it's fine.
Everything was fucking fine. But to kowtow, to absolutely, like, you think that's the group of people you need to make sure are on your side? That tells me. everything about you. Yeah, if I was planning on watching any of the Terrifier movies at some point, I'm not going to now. I watched one and I didn't care for it. And we said many times, we are bygones on this fucking issue until now. Now we're unbygoned and we're very invested.
and members of the cast and the crew who you hung out to fucking dry because you just had to get those sweet, sweet incel likes. It's just so important to you. Okay. Well, I hope that that fills your heart. Because that's all you're going to fucking get from now on. Hey, let's end this on a happier note. We said when we did the substance episode that we doubted that the critical community... in terms of awards, would actually take it seriously. And I am here to admit that I, very happily...
I was wrong. I didn't have faith in them. I didn't believe after so many times when so many other actresses delivered these incredible performances and were not recognized, were not talked about, never made... it to this level? Well, Demi Moore has. Cordial Forgot has. And it's, you know, do I believe it will win Best Picture? Well, probably not.
It is weird that it's in the conversation. And I love that Demi Moore has been given multiple opportunities to walk up on a stage and receive an award that says this performance, this singular performance. is worthy of recognition regardless of whether or not they're, I think, the sort of horror undertones to it of making that weird people out. They got over it at least enough to put her on that stage several, several times.
There's a possibility she walks away with a fucking Oscar and I will be thrilled about it. I would love to see, you know, revive the conversation because I think that... Obviously, the primary thrust of the movie is how disposable older women are. And I think that if she wins the Academy Award, I don't think that I... don't think that the movie is going to win Best Picture. I think that she has a very good shot of winning her respective award.
Like, no disrespect to Mikey Madsen, who is very good. She's also like a fetus. She has plenty of time to do. Right. Yeah. It's just like one of those things that. There's a lot of historical elements going into this that feel like, yeah, this can happen, especially for her. Like that is where that and script, I think, are the two places where this this can really be rewarded.
the impact that it's had and it's it's made money you know it was rejected by a studio neon picked it up and they made the most out of it and I am so happy that it's received the love that it has, and I would be over the moon if she could walk up on that stage and accept that Oscar. I mean, it's an ephemeral thing in many respects.
And it's very important in others. Ultimately, what it comes down to is a bit of a horse race of all of these award things. But it would be nice. It would be a nice like, hey, this is a genre. that we need to start taking seriously, even though the substance is a very serious thing, but also insanely funny. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It will be interesting to see what clips they show from it.
Yes, that will be very interesting. I bet you dollars to donuts we're going to get a fair amount of, you know, Jack's dad. eating shrimp on screen. That's definitely a horrifying moment in 2024. Right. Yeah, we were writing stuff for Conan O'Brien and I... I didn't think that we would be in a place where I could propose him eating shrimp in a loud suit, and maybe we could have.
Or have them have a perfect, you know, there's all sorts of things we could have done out, but we did it so far in advance. They haven't even released any of them. It'll be interesting when that comes out. Maybe, maybe one of our scripts. I mean, of course, the, you know. The joke's going to be on us and Amelia Perez sweep is going to happen. Gina, I text you when I watched it and I'm like, holy shit. I knew from the way people talked about it, it was a big swing.
What I didn't know about it is the kind of swing where a cartoon character spins around so many times they screw themselves into the dirt and their long ears become a beehive. That shit is... And I hate, I really despise the fact that there's so many things I want it to be good for. And listen, I don't doubt other people's emotional reactions to art. I'll say this again as my mantra, but holy shit. That is not good. But that's the thing.
though is is this somehow almost broke a record for for most academy nominations and i cannot find a single person who liked it not i just i don't I think it is technically inept from a very technically good director. What the fuck was the one with Miguel Mortensen and Mahershala? Oh, the Green Book? I was thinking Green Room. No, that's the one about, like...
like Patrick Stewart killing a bunch of punk rockers. Like, even then, you could find people who like it. I cannot find a... single person like you come on you've got the inside track this is like a payoff from netflix right what i believe it is ultimately at the end of the day is you see the components of it that feel very revolutionary, that feel very provocational, that feel like resistance, right? In that very Twitter space resistance.
And you're voting for that. And then you watch it. And you convince yourself that because it's weird and you don't understand why it's a movie, that it must be doing something interesting. And I have a feeling that it's more of a statement statement than it is a true belief that these things are excellent. Because I have a hard time believing it's going to win a lot of technical awards.
Because technically, it looks ungood. And it doesn't operate well. I really don't care for the script. It really cares nothing for the performers. They're really hung out to dry. And then you have all of the elements of your lead performer and having their... you know, abject racism put on display. I mean, on the other hand, it's, you know, at least it's good to know that trans people can also be allowed to have terrible online personas. Yeah, you know.
You can, like, I believe in her right to exist and be who she is. But that also means facing consequences for, you know. You saying, saying, you know, let's just say untoward things. Yes, and if a cis woman had said these things, I would be pissed off. If a cis man had said these things, I would be pissed off. If a gay man or woman had said these things, I would also be pissed off. It is...
Universal in my condemnation for the things that she put out there when she thought no one was looking. And now everyone is. And there's, you know. Couldn't happen to a nicer company, I guess, is what it comes down to in terms of what Netflix does every year in an effort to just, they're so thirsty for a fucking Oscar and Apple got there first.
is what it comes down to. I think the fact that it got so many nominations actually got a lot more people to actually watch it. And I have yet to hear anyone say, you know what? It deserves all those nominations. That is not something that has occurred to me in life, online. Yeah, no. So if this isn't pleasing people, because Green Book did please lots of people.
It wasn't anyone I talked to, but most of them were like, wow, I just so old fashioned and just whatever they were trying to do, they kind of missed the point. People who wanted to feel good about themselves voted for it as a result of that. And I don't know if Anora or the Brutalist have the capacity to make people feel better about their vote.
than Emilia Perez. But I also think that Green Book looks like the fucking godfather next to Emilia Perez in terms of accomplishment. It is truly strange, like a prophet. is an incredibly good movie. And I could not believe it was from the same guy. It just feels weirdly cheap and bad. Yeah, I honestly did not know until... recently, within the past month or so, that it was a musical. Well, I think musical is doing it a disservice because it's really kind of this weird operetta.
You know, people are talk singing throughout it. And these aren't songs. You don't, you don't, you never walk away from any of these musical sequences humming a tune, which is why I find it. so weird that it actually got music nominations. People heard those songs and go, that really is the most memorable thing that came out last year. That's why, I don't know, I feel like somebody exchanged hands here. I think it's too broad a group to pay off as opposed to the Hollywood...
you know, press corps, the foreign Hollywood press corps for the Golden Globes. That's a group you can, there's only a hundred so many people and you can buy them off. That's simple. There are thousands of Academy members, and they have worked really hard in the last six years to diversify their ranks. which has led to more interesting nominations, but it's also led to this movie, quote, movie.
Getting 13 nominations? And I'm not really sure which one it actually deserves. It's just truly a clusterfuck of monumental proportions. Yeah, I mean, I think in the end, it's probably just not going to get anything. But, but I just, I just find it fascinating. I don't know. Like, it's hard to, it's like, I just, I don't think you can give it costuming when things like Anora and, and, you know, and the substance.
And The Brutalist exists. Like, there are other movies that just made better accomplishments. The fact that Emilio Perez got any nominations and Challengers got none. The fact that Challengers didn't get nominated for fucking sound, the movie orchestration is so infuriating to me. Like... I might be B on challengers as a whole, but I am a plus plus plus on that soundtrack. And I am.
infuriated it didn't get an Oscar. Yeah, there's choices were made. And they'll continue to be made. Speaking of choices being made, if you were to, let's say, die in any way presented in this movie, which way would you choose? And why? We're going to choose your own death venture. Up for bid, we got throat slashed. Shot in the chest accidentally. Stabbed in the back. Shot.
Just several times. Death by cattle prod to the mouth. And then, of course, electric corkscrew to the brain. Oh, don't forget, beaten to death. Don't forget about the cop. True. Beaten to death and shot. But he shot several times. I thought, no, no, no, the tech guy was shot in the van. Matt McCarthy was shot several times. And then the cop is, Patrick punches him very hard several times in the face.
That's true. As much as I love the Chekhov's electric corkscrew, I don't want that because that took a little bit. That took a little bit. That's a nice prolong death for a loathsome villain. Yes. He deserves every turn of that. Yes. I would love my, my dying words to be, can you shut the fuck up for 10 seconds? So I think I'm just going to take a stab in the back. Sure. Yeah.
That is tough coming from a person who is looking down the barrel gun of someone literally cutting open their back. Yeah, but I'll be asleep for it. I hope. Yeah, it seems, she seems to go quickly. Yeah, she just like, I think she just kind of, you know, I think he gets her in the liver or something and then she's bleeding to death. Yeah, she's a pool of blood. I'm surprised that it's not all the way into the second floor.
She goes pretty quick. That's the way to do it. Hey, folks, rate and review us on whatever podcatcher you use. It helps us be seen and heard by more people. Join our Patreon for bonus content like chat by chat and bonus episodes. We did a whole thing. on david lynch one of the greatest filmmakers of our time and we did a back-to-back chat by chat and bonus episode on
David Lynch, and it turned out fun. We also do commentaries that you can listen to while you watch a movie, and we make fun of them while you do it. Where can people find you on these hero internets, Gina? I write about movies and television and pop culture on my Substack. Gina watches things at Substack. And I am semi-active on Blue Sky and Ardina Does Things.
Do it today. People check it out. Don't worry, folks. The body count will continue and we're keeping in the after dark realm next week as we talk about basic instinct. Wait for it. Two, risk addiction. A coda to that movie I did not know existed until I started researching and I never knew at any point it was called basic instinct to risk addiction. Risk and addiction.
Two kill by kill is what I'm telling you right now. So don't worry, folks. The body count will continue for myself and for Gina. Bye-bye, everybody.