Carrie vol. 2 (w/ Joe Lipsett and Trace Thurman)

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and 2013. characters. We're going to talk about all the gory details of both 2002 and 2013's Carrie in the hopes that a high school senior's untimely end is just the beginning of the jokes that we might their expense and there is only one person i trust to crop me out of the video that proves i was bullying a girl for having a period the one the only gina radcliffe how are you doing today gina

Well, you've got to take those editing skills and put them to some sort of good use. That's right. I've been learning CapCut. I'm what the kids call a hyphenate. I don't think any kids refer to people. You're a content creator. Sure, I'm creating content like in no one's business. Now, I don't want to scare you, Gina, but this is the start of season six. We are going to be discussing multiple Stephen King entries.

as opposed to a singular horror franchise specifically. So we're going to get a lot of variety here, but I really don't want to scare you by the fact that we're not alone. That's right. We have special guests. You may know. them from their work on bloody disgusting and of course for their fantastic podcast horror queers but I'm also proud to call them returning champions to our show. The ones, the onlys, Joe Lipset and Trace Thurbin. How are you doing today, boys? Hello.

Yes, the S in horror queers is also for dollar signs. As well as it should be. Also is the S in carries, apparently. Right? Yes. Although, did these make much money? Well, we'll talk about it. Well... I mean, one really... It wasn't directly a money-making effort because it aired on TV, but its ratings were good. Like, it did well for its time, but we'll get into the aftermath. And 2013...

Made money? I mean, it didn't lose a ton. There we go. But it wasn't such a blockbuster that everyone was like, we got to make more of these. That would happen about... four years later with Stephen King's It. So, that being said, we usually do not cover two movies on this show. We like to give... Once upon a time, we'd break a movie into multiple parts, for Christ's sake. But since we have covered Carrie 1976 and its relationship to the Stephen King novel in-depth...

we will have re-released that episode before this. I thought it might be opportune to, since these movies don't change the main thrust for the most part. or massively change the dynamic of the Carrie narrative. But it is in the details that they're different. I thought we might have a bit of a discussion. concerning how they differ and how they are similar. So why don't we start with 2002 and trace...

If I'm remembering correctly, you are a fan to a degree. Well, to the sense that, in the sense that I feel like I always...

I hear people talk a lot of shit about the 2002 one. And while I do think it is the weakest entry, mostly from a production standpoint, this movie looks horrendous. Oh, yeah. To the point where... I didn't remember how it looked, and I think I'd revisited this once more since 2002, because I was 13 when this came out, and I was, I think I was, like, my mom was taking me to go see my sister to dance class, and I was in, like, the room with all the other brothers who didn't dance, and I put on...

for all these little boys to watch. Because I really wanted to see it. Because I couldn't watch the 1976 one because it was rated R. But I... I think that the 2002 one has a lot going for it. I do like a lot of Brian Fuller's script, even though some of it has not aged well. I think Angela Bettis is a really good carry. I do think she's better than Chloe Grace Moretz, if only because she looks the part more than I would... I think Chloe...

grace moretz does um i don't know i i there are some additions or maybe more book holdovers in the 2002 one that i like like i love the characterization of miss disherden and i love that we don't kill her in this movie but okay things like that I think there are arguments to be made here. The argument on production is just... That's not an argument. That's an objective fact. It is. I will grant you that almost every movie suffers in comparison to the way Brian De Palma did.

shoots a movie. It cannot really be helped, the fact that the O2 version looks like it was shot on an iPhone 3 by someone in the midst of their DTs. It is less of a visual feast and more of an eyesore. But that is not something we can change. I don't believe it's directed particularly well. No. That said... Where its advantages are, are individual performances. And I feel like the additions from the book that it chooses here and there, there are some that I think they're not.

executed to their full ability and therefore becomes like liabilities. But that's that. How about you, Joe? so this was a first time watch for me I had heard Trace talk about it a couple of times because we have also covered Carrie from 1976 and we had a bunch of conversations when the Mike Flanagan series was announced so we can all I look forward to a new rendition coming in the next year or so.

But, yeah, I mean, I think it was principally in relationship to that announcement in part because everybody just sort of fell over themselves saying, oh, my God, what are we going to do? Because we've already got three versions of this and none of them do anything different.

than the palma version but it was interesting to watch this 2002 version for the first time because yeah the book holdovers definitely do add something a little bit unique and it gives me a bit of an insight into where you could hypothetically expand this like i was fascinated to hear that this was well desired to be a backdoor pilot and then the pilot was never picked up so we just get a movie

But you can see some of the potential there. Like, there's storytelling opportunities in which you could expand upon in this world. But that being said, Joe, I agree with you. If you had a telekinetic teen who's 18... it across the United States with a different pregnant teen yes there's potential there but I how it damages in my mind the overall story arc

of Carrie White is not something we can just walk away from. This sort of like, well, you know, we've all made mistakes. Mistakes generally do not have body counts in the hundreds. well i think though that's where the whole like well is carrie intentionally doing all of this or she in a fugue state during the during the prom scene like i think that's always been to me an ambiguous answer that i've always been fascinated by

And here, the answer is concrete. We get confirmation that Carrie does not remember at all what she was doing. So in some ways, yes, it doesn't excuse her, but it maybe gives her an out. I mean, look, I'm sorry. a lot of these people deserve to die in every iteration of carrie a lot of these people deserve to die and were there a lot of innocents killed yes but you know what they're bystanders

I'm just saying, I like Helen. Collideral damage. You would like a Carrie White surgical strike is what you're calling for. All of these people, if they weren't direct bulliers of Carrie, they watched this. Everyone knew who Carrie White was. So sorry about it. Like.

Don't go to prom. So we believe that Carrie White has a right to tear down the system and that there's going to be casualties along the way that we're just simply going to have to accept. Why are we nitpicking this and we go gaga over any other vigilante in a comic book? Well, we're really going to get into it because I would denote that the major difference for any carry moving forward, and it starts in 02 and it really comes to the fore in 2013, is that these are carries post.

These are post-school shooter teens being taken out on their high school grounds and how much... the various renditions of the story engage with that is something that needs to be discussed, and we shall. O2 takes the sort of... fugue state thing that that is really a part of 76 and 2013 is like actually she knows exactly what she's doing and i don't know if that makes it better i think it makes it fun

I mean, I'm just going to come out and say this right now. The reason I can never wipe away the 2013 one, which I think is a total... totally fine movie it's yeah there we go it's biggest crime is that it just like it does nothing new and even julianne moore's like margaret white it's like well we got like the big caricature one from piper lorry and then we got the more subdued one from mr clarkson so

There's nowhere else to go. Yeah, it's kind of an in-between thing that's fine, but not really memorable. But the one thing the 2013 one has going for it is the death of Chris Hargensen. That... I've always felt that Chris's death is such a fucking wash, like a wash of a death in both versions, of the 76 one and the 2002 one. So getting to watch Carrie not only hurt her, but then, like...

watch her die excruciatingly slowly as she has her face show through this windshield, that to me, the movie's worth a watch for that scene. Well, let's put a pin in Chris Hartigan, because I think that is another thing that... changes vastly over various times and I feel like

There are some times when people, when Chris's rise to the occasion and when they fall below the radar. Gina Radcliffe, we have not gone to you. Your opinions are valid and must be heard. And I want to know what you thought. overall of 2002's Carrie. I'm going to be a little bit of the outlier so far and say that I don't actually care for it. This is also a first-time watch for me. My two primary issues are I do not like that ending.

I think it is a, I said to Patrick earlier, I referred it both to as Highway to Heaven, but it's Carrie, or Selma and Louise, but it's Carrie and Sue. Right, sure. Although you're selling me again on a jam. But it's also not because Sue's like, bye. I think if Thelma and Louise drive off a cliff and Carrie is able to levitate it, now you got a story. story of Carrie works much more effectively when it's a tragedy. When everybody dies, you have Tommy is the sacrificial lamb.

And you have Sue is just sort of the lone survivor who is both scapegoated and traumatized by the event. I think that it is a much more effective story in that regard. And I also, I really like Angela Bettis as an actress. The problem is that she's so imprinted on me as May. It's hard to read her as anything else. Yeah, that I...

had the same kind of issue with her as Carrie that Stephen King had with Jack Nicholson as Jack Tarnes. And from the minute, it's like, oh, this is not somebody who I sympathize with her. But she comes off as a little too creepy. Oh, I disagree. I disagree. You know, just, I don't know. It's just like I can't see her as anything else but May. And also, I think she's not a very convincing teenager.

That's not to be helped. When it comes to, like, with the exception of one person, I don't think there are any teenagers in any of the adaptations of it. And there's a reason why, because there's a... bunch of material in here that is not suitable to using real teenagers in that regard I will say she is she reads more 28 than she reads 18 and that's just Probably not helped by the Star Trek director who is doing this in a filter.

that just defies the imagination. The Vaseline budget on this movie. Even in comparison to sci-fi originals, this looks bad. I'm so glad you said that because I was like, even if you told me, okay, 2002 NBC miniseries, I have a pretty good idea of what that looks like. And this somehow looks worse. It does.

It just simply does. I don't think this guy was such a visual genius. I think he was a plug-and-play guy who would work within systems, and now he's creating a visual language for a TV movie slash podcast. and that visual language is, everything's kind of white, like an episode of The View. Or as Trey said, Dutch Angle. Like, this could just be called Dutch Angle the movie. Like, there are so many bad...

villain layers in Chamberlain, Maine. I was unaware that just the penguin also walks the halls of that high school. I think what he was trying to do, and I'm not even trying to be generous here. I think he was like, okay, we're going to get like the...

major Dutch angle, like the most angled Dutch angle is going to be at the end, and I'm going to build up to it as the movie goes on, so it's like we start the film. Like baby Dutch angles? Yeah, where the film is off angle just by a little bit, and then I feel like it just gets more and more angled.

as the film goes on. You are being very generous to this. Help, I'm tipping over as the movie plays. Oh, I'm not saying it works or it's good. I'm just saying, to me, that's a very surface-level approach to the technique of the Dutch angle. Okay, sure. As we brought up, Hannibal's Brian Fuller is a part of this. He's another talent that emerges out of Star Trek, so it's not like...

you know, no one can come out of Star Trek and not have a voice or do something interesting. He obviously does. And then he gets fired for it. But... This also introduces Fuller to the concept of an international co-production, which is something that Hannibal would employ to stay on the air for as long as it did because it cost NBC next to nothing to make as a result.

But the element that I had not known, and we've talked about here, is that the rights holder, MGN, viewed this as a possible backdoor pilot, which is one of the driving factors behind not killing off Carrie White. at the end although Fuller in interviews in the lead up this promotional run up to its airing is kind of like there's an opportunity here. Like, I feel so sorry for her. How can we possibly punish her on that level? And it's kind of like, Brian, you know why. You know why, man.

You know why. So, on a language basis, there's a lot to shout out for Carrie. On a story basis... I think the driving force behind this was, hey, we're going to have more runway and real estate to cover material that the 76 version either didn't want to. did not have the special effects to create, we're going to have more time to do shit. So you get the aftermath investigation that sort of harkens to the epistolatory nature of the book. You get...

Chris Hargenson's dad trying to lawyer her back into the prom, which is a scene I really like from the book. And I would say I liken both the 03 and 13 interpretations of... And then you have the bikini meteor shower incident, which was filmed for 13, but it was not in the final cut. And here is executed. in a birdemic level of special effects. Oh my God. Some of these, I mean, the CGI of some of the floating furniture during the prom scene. Not good. It's something.

Yeah, I'm actually looking at this prom scene and like the shaking, it honestly looks like the Star Trek style shaking the camera to make it look like the room is shaking. I mean, a lot of this movie... in particular, the O2 version, is shot as if Jason Bourne is trying to beat his way to the final boss. I thought it was really weird that the one CGI effect that stood out to me was like, oh, that doesn't look like absolute ass.

is when the water at Carrie's feet separates. Oh, that looks so good. I was like, that looks decent. Yeah. That looks like a regular sci-fi series. Yeah. I'm saying that as a compliment because I think that's a... You can visualize that. It's a simple thing, but it means a lot. You don't have to see it with every step or anything. You just give one good example of it, and it allows your brain to go, oh, she's moving the water out of the way so she doesn't get electrocuted.

get it that that's i'm not looking for fucking reality here right i don't need to believe that dinosaurs exist i just need to have a couple of things that really really work and i emotionally the bikini meteor shower incident, at least its inclusion allows you to see how willing Margaret is to keep Carrie sheltered from secular reality. I don't know that they're emotionally executed. at a level above the special effects. I do believe that these novel-specific touches feel like ways to zag.

an iconic book and movie that are very simple, straight lines. And so I get the idea behind it, but you kind of have to wonder. To what degree do they really elevate this depiction of the story? Your dad, who just eats oats, loves to tell stories. If he ate bunches of oats, maybe he'd have more than three of them that he tells over and over. Yes, Dad, what your friend Squeaky did back in 88 is hilarious.

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Old-fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot, but the Copperhead's pocket pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home. When you're all done, this rust-proof anti-burst hose shrinks back down to pocket size for effortless handling and tidy storage. Plus, your super light and ultra-durable pocket hose copperhead is backed with a 10-year warranty. What could be better than that? I'll tell you what.

That's water to 64,000 for your two free gifts with purchase. W-A-T-E-R to 64,000. By texting 64,000, you agree to receive recurring automated marketing messages from Pocket Host. Message and data rates may apply. No purchase required. Terms apply available at pockethost.com slash terms. I think some of the driving factors behind let's do this, let's do this now is you have Angela Bettis and you have Patricia Clarkson and I think they're...

abilities within this movie are interesting because Bettis is going for, I have bugs under my skin and Patricia Clarkson is going for, I'm not going loony. I'm so buttoned up. that when I do explode, it's going to really matter. She was definitely the most interesting performance of this film for me because we're so familiar with Piper Laurie's performance. This feels like we've gone 180 the other way. And I really liked its calmness.

It made me wish she was in a better movie so that we could actually appreciate it 100% as opposed to just saying, oh, wow, she's really good. the rest of this is iffy to not good. Yeah, it kind of, you know, really makes the rest of it even...

weaker by comparison. I think some of it is, as Joe said, like, if this was presented in a way that was as dynamic and as interesting as what De Palma... does and i would say in the 13 version there's a bit more verve behind the camera it's certainly photographed better that you would get a lot more of the nuances here But this is primarily photographed for, it still has to fit in a 4x3 frame because not everyone has a widescreen TV yet.

And therefore, it's flat. Like, if you had told me that certain sections of this were a stage production that Angela Bettis and Patricia Clarkson were in, and I'm like, hey, I've watched a bunch of movies that look like we just set up a tripod and walked away. and came back two hours later and printed it. But like, you know, the scene where...

Carrie finally tells her mother that she's going to go to the prom. And then we like flip that giant fucking dining room table and it crashes right in front of mama. I was like, this is really good stuff. And I hate the way it is shot. because it is so static. There's zero energy. Like, someone did these two actresses dirty. I would agree with you to a certain degree. That's where, Gina, I'm kind of with you on Bettis'

sort of, she's so weird. Like, she's having petite grand mal seizures in algebra. And everyone else is like... fucking tuesday so it's it's one thing when when carrie has a target on her back it's another thing when you start painting it yourself yeah i think that the and this is again not not

Problem with Bettis' performance, again, it's a problem with direction. Sure. In that the director does not trust the audience to understand what's happening. Oh, no, he does not. No. Yeah. You know, you have like... Sissy, she gets a little uneasy looking. Her eyes get wide. But you get what's happening to her. Here it's like, well, you better make it seem like someone's electrocuting you right now.

Because otherwise the audiences are going to know that something strange is happening to you. Yes. I do think there's a lack of trust. from a direction standpoint that people just aren't going to get it unless we really tell them. That being said, not everyone is up to that particular task. Someone who falls very in the middle here for me.

is Sue Snell. I just don't think she's helped with more time. There's a level of snark to this character that I get. You're trying to make your mark on it, but it almost makes her... unsympathetic yes which is a bummer it leaves a little more of a gray area it's interesting because you know i've been doing a little bit of writing on carrie i don't know if i'm going to do anything with it or not but um

A lot of modern audiences come to the 76 movie unsure if Sue and Tommy were actually in on the prank the whole time. Really? Yeah. And I am as baffled as you are. Are they watching this movie? I don't know. But, you know, they are, because, I guess because...

They can't understand. I think it's more they don't understand why Tommy would agree to go along with this. Because he's a nice guy. Because he's a nice guy. And, you know, I think the problem is, is that the later incarnations of him don't really...

don't really care much about Tommy as a character. No. So, you know, he's just sort of the guy. But he's, you know, a major character in the book. I actually think that this 2002 one, though, probably serves Tommy the... best and if only in the sense that we get more conversations between Tommy and Sue between Tommy and Carrie even that I don't know I find a lot of the Tommy additions in the 2002 one give me some of the catharsis that I wanted

from the other films that I don't get because he dies. He dies here, obviously, too, but we get more from him. Trace, I absolutely agree. On the page, Tommy is written better. The problem that we have here is that we've cast a Tommy, who I'm going to be generous here, gives potato energy. Oh, I disagree. I like Tobias Miller as this. And I will confess, I probably have a soft spot for more of the people in this cast because this is also an aggressively Canadian cast. Like, this was so obvious.

shot in Vancouver nothing has ever felt more Vancouver than this cast so I've seen this guy in probably six different things that you folks are like I'm sorry what I mean, I'm right there with you just on a Catherine, Isabel, and Chaelin Simmons side. Yeah. I'm right there with you. Like, I have seen them in a ton of stuff, but... When it comes to Tommy in particular, his unmolded lump of clay.

does not come off like a prize or a goal or a win. Tommy has to possess a vein of decency that Sue exploits for her purposes and Carrie revels in as safe. And this Tommy... And I don't believe it's the script. I do believe it is casting and direction. They don't convey that.

For me. Okay. Well, but to go back to the soonest of it all, though, I will say, and I think that Brian Fuller does okay with some of the dialogue here. I mean, look, I don't need the Freddie Prinze Jr. It's just like that Freddie Prinze Jr. movie reference. Right, right, right. Again, that is over-explaining things to the audience. 100%. I will say that the scene where I was like, I don't like you, Sue, which I've never said about any incarnation of Sue Snell before.

is when she does the monologue about The Last Supper versus the dogs playing poker, I was like, you sound like a fucking idiot. Shut up. Oh, is he mine? Again, is it the dialogue or is it the way the actress delivers it? I think it's the delivery. For me, this is a both scenario. Well, actually, maybe you're right. Maybe someone else could make this seem profound, but I think it's really stupid. It is not particularly a well-cooked dish of a monologue. And I will say...

We have to grant some of these characters, they're not finished people. Their brain stems haven't really locked in at this point. Sue doesn't know who she is. to her core, and we have to grant her that grace. But I don't think what she's given to work with and how she interprets that, and certainly not how it's portrayed, does it any particular favors. My issue was... She's trying. God love her. Well, she's trying, yes. And by the way, Patrick, I love this. Like, you are giving strong...

parent of a teenager. Let's just give them a little more time to cook. They're not quite ready to come out of the oven. Random question, though. Do y'all know if y'all are going to be covering the remake, the 2009 remake of Children of the Corn that aired on SyFy?

Children of the Corn is something we've been wrestling with on this show over and over again. We now, since we've locked into Stephen King as season six, undoubtedly we will cover it in some way. And she's in that. I was going to say, yeah, she's the Linda Hamilton role in the remake.

She had a lane, baby. Because here's the thing, like Candace McClure, most people are going to look at her and be familiar with her work from the Battlestar Galactica TV series because she's one of the main... actors in that and I will argue she's not one of the stronger actors in that ensemble like I don't think she's great I think she's okay she sometimes gets the job done for me the issue here is that

I think because we're writing for a potential backdoor pilot and this is going to go to series. We can't solve all of her problems. Yeah, like we need to keep her a little bit interesting. But like that ends up becoming she's. Meaner and a bit more brittle Like there's a moment in these oh god saw-esque filter interrogation room where you know he says hey these are your classmates like this is your boyfriend why aren't you more sad and she literally replies

We put them in the ground two weeks ago. We gave them funerals. What do you expect? What do you want? And I was like, damn, bitch, that is cold. I think, though, a part of that, though, you have to realize, though, is she's currently hiding Carrie and waiting to get out. of there so she can go center off on her mission to save a bunch of other carries out there.

Because it's a pilot, they have given her a mission statement to get through this rather than actually be confessional as she is in the book about her experiences. Because that... experience the book you know the events are over and she's being forced to somehow pry it open and make it make sense And here she's trying to obfuscate because she does not want to be complicit in keeping Carrie White alive and out of police.

you know, authorities, you know, jail system, which I think would take her a grand total of 10 minutes to unentangle herself from. We're inching towards someone who is a Hulk-level threat, and she's like, but if I get her out of town. I don't know if that's going to work. Just got to get her to Florida.

i agree with eugene i think that using this this these interrogations again like the book is they bring that back that epistolary format but like none of these interrogation scenes work i don't think they add anything to the story at all and

I don't know. I actually find they kind of disrupt the pacing of the film. Not that it's perfectly paced anyway, but, like, every time we come back to the interrogation, I'm like, why? Like, go back to the story. Don't you want to see people picket donuts for two and a half hours? Dude, that student council president, God love her.

That's, I think, one of the interesting additions to this. This is one of those characters that I find interesting to pick apart because she's a floater in between these worlds. There's no way she would make it. under Chris Hartigan's sort of... laser focus, but if she can vacillate between the two worlds and she can just get by enough and paint targets on other people, her weirdness will not be set upon by the dragons that she attends school.

with that I kind of like hey that's worthy of examination but they're really hampering you know Sue in almost every single way to hide the weenie that she's you know keeping Carrie White inside of a human trafficking container. What is this, a drum? Did we repurpose this for Hannibal every time we needed to put someone in a pit? What about that wig, though?

Oh my God. Let's really get into it. Okay. Cause here's one that I'm very interested to hear everyone's opinions on because Emily, the Ravens, Chris. I find an utter fucking failure. And I don't want the, I don't want, we don't even need to pile on this, this actress here. She comes off as a fucking paper tiger. The level of menace. that she delivers or that the director chooses to display is underwhelming or miscalculated. Take your pick. My main issue...

It's not even DeRaven's performance, I think, that's bothering me. I think that the film positions Billy as an... I think all versions have positioned Billy as kind of abusive towards Chris. Oh, sure. But Chris has always been a bit...

She gives it back almost as well as he gives it. She's a manipulator. She is trying to work that dude. Yes, and this Chris doesn't give me that. No. The one... additional christine that i was like thank god this is in here is that that line whenever she's talking to carrie and she's like dude practically talked me into getting botox and carrie's retort is maybe she thought you needed it was really good you could tell a gay man wrote that line but

But making Billy kind of this caricature of an abusive boyfriend, it takes away a lot of Chris's agency as a villain in this version. Yeah. I agree. And it also, it allows Billy in this...

this particular version, to take the reins. Yes, and he doesn't know Carrie White. He doesn't even go here. Yeah, I mean, like, the thing... about billy nolan is he is a fucking idiot yeah he's he's a very typical you know stephen king meat-headed villain right where you know he's like he walked out of a time machine from 1958 And, you know, he's got this, you know, rich daddy's girl girlfriend who, you know, Blake's being pushed around. And they have this sort of mutually toxic relationship.

And yeah, you're right. That's completely removed from this. And as a result, things begin to feel like he is behind the wheel on a bunch of this stuff. As opposed to Chris knowing that Billy is a hammer, and she just needs to aim him at the Carrie nail. The biggest problem, actually, is that Chris hesitates to pull the rope to drop the blood.

Oh, my God. And then two minutes later, she finally gets it. Well, but she only gets it after Billy gives her some fucking, like, asshole motivational speech. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Chris Harkinson just, like, hesitate to pull this fucking thing. Yes, I think this is a true miscalculation of what Chris is. Because to a certain degree, like, Carrie is cursed.

And she's made worse by the fact that she's surrounded by bored assholes who live for fucking with her. They need it. Carrie is their outlet.

to rage against comfortable lives. And even people with souls are not immune from it because when Ms. Desjardins and Ms. Collins in the 76 version, they feel it by osmosis after the plug it up bump. But they're like, holy shit, touch grass, and they smack the fuck out of Carrie because they're like, how can someone I know walks these hallways not be in touch with something as normal and rational as...

women have periods, and it makes them so angry, and then they're repulsed by how angry it makes them after the fact. That's how they display that they're normal human beings with souls. Whereas, Emily DeRaven's Chris... It's just simply not malicious enough. That character has to display a level of manipulation that...

at least as far as we're shown, she's incapable of achieving, and that makes her a weaker villain overall when it shouldn't be hard to make these people look like a-holes. Because she's passive, though. She's the... Maybe not completely passive, but she is the most passive version of Chris that we've seen in these three films. Yes. Keeping with everything else about this being a made-for-TV movie, it's restrained. Right. And it's not interesting when it's restrained.

Well, I guess because this is the only iteration of this story where I feel like the film is sometimes asking me to relate to Chris Harkinson. Yeah. Right. And that's a problem. It's a problem if she can't explain herself. It is a problem that, weirdly enough, I guess I'll enter this into the fray. We don't have enough going on. It's something the musical seems to do rather well. Has anyone else besides me seen the musical version of Carrie?

I'm not in this entirety. I've seen plenty of clips of it. Gina, have you seen the Riverdale version? That's what we're asking. No, I've not seen the Riverdale version. I know it exists, but I have not seen it. Riverdale, I think the poster for that also has our tagline on it. We have so many Riverdale taglines. I refuse to let anyone ever, like, come down against Riverdale, which just...

tried to be the most unhinged thing on television, and for the most part, achieved it. I love that. So, in the musical, everyone, because of song, they're allowed... to really, you know, get to the heart of their character or their philosophy in life. Chris is one of those characters and Snoo and suit also really, you really get to explore what their motivations are. It's hard to confuse what those things are in the musical because through song, they really get to explain themselves. And.

Right now, in my lineup, it is 76, musical. And then 2013 and 2002. Okay. I actually, that's fascinating. I've never listened to the book. I've definitely seen the Riverdale version, Joe, but, like, I mean, yeah, that's not an accurate representation. No, no. But the one thing I'm always missing from even De Palma's version, even, like...

It's been too long since I've read King's book, so I can't really speak to it. But, like, it's just, yeah, these extra conversations, getting to know how some of these people feel. Because I feel like there are so many, like...

There's a lot of moments in De Palma's film where you're just like, if you just spoke to this person once and had a conversation with them, like, I miss so much of that. So if the musical actually gives me a... fragment of that i'm i'm very they at least speak to the audience right? Because there's this moment when you hear the piano in the background and you're like, okay, it's song time. And then that person says, but in my heart, you know, that shit like that.

I have seen clips of, like, the 80s version of it, which seems fucking insane. Oh, no. Well, yeah, but you know what? You know what's good about the 80s musical version? overweight carry. There we go. Only one so far. That brings us to the question, are we ever going to get one? And that would mean you'd need another version of fucking carry. which, God, we're not going to get one because even back in the 76 version, it is plainly said... The audience will not empathize with an overweight carry.

I mean, I know that we've heard some casting rumors for Flanagan's version, but do we not think that's even a possibility? He's already cast her. He's already cast. Oh, she's cast. And she is a thin actress. Okay. Well, I...

I guess this is one of those, like, in Flanagan, I trust, where I'm like, I feel like he's going to pull a Haunting of Hill House with Carrie, so I'm intrigued to see what he does with it. I hope so. I mean, I think if anybody can do a decent job with it, it'll be him. It's going to have to be different. That's the thing. And I don't think that Flanagan at this point is going to adapt this verbatim. No, my guess is he's going to go a lot into Margaret.

life before Carrie was born. Because, I mean, that's a whole... Well, I mean, like, in terms of, you know, how she gave... And the 2013 gets... They give mention. Right. She gives birth at home by herself. She's. She's got this... And the book gets into a little bit of her life before Carrie. So I think there's probably going to be some of that. I think he's going to get...

If my guess is correct, he's going to get a lot into the fact that it's hereditary and how the book ends with another little girl being born with the same powers. So I think he's going to... he's going to lean heavily into that. And again, I'm completely guessing at this. Do you think he's going to maybe have each episode be a day? in the week before prom so that we can be like, the Tuesday before prom, the Wednesday before prom. I guess this is a Flanagan we trust.

scenario because of all the properties this was the one that really threw me for a loop in terms of this is something i gotta stretch out when you have two versions of this movie that are ostensibly stretched out, even by minutes, and you're kind of like, do you need it? Because...

There's no evidence you do. What happens if he does something similar to the fall of the House of Usher where the prom happens in like the second or third episode? Because that Halloween, the Mask of the Red Death episode. and the fall of the house of usher happened very early and a lot of people singled it out as holy shit this is going big we're just brutally killing a bunch of people and i think it'd be super interesting if like okay we're gonna seriesize this let's play with

the time yeah you really particularly if you're drawing in people who you aren't super familiar with the source material like you're really gonna need to to you give them something right from the get-go who is not familiar with the source it's short That was only partially rhetorical. I get it. I get it. But also, I feel like... maybe not maybe not king's novel but it's like if people hear oh yeah that movie carrie that somehow somewhere in their brain

prom comes to their mind. They know a bloody woman walks around with flames behind her and, you know, people explode and people are killed at a prom. It's just shorthand. It's cultural osmosis gets down to them. If I asked my kid who Carrie is, he has not seen the movie. He's only seen the DVD cover. And I promise you, he can tell you the story of Carrie. Right. But I guess in the conversation, I just feel like he's going to have to either deviate or like do.

He's not going to be adapting this in the way we think he is. I have to assume because there's not enough story here to last six to eight episodes. No. There just isn't. So you're going to have to mine territory that isn't there. And that's where you get into, Hey, I can't prejudge this thing. He will tell me a story and I'll either like it or I don't. Speaking of things I either like or I don't, I like, like Catherine Isabel. I'm just going to fucking cop.

That has nothing to do with the character and everything to do with the actor. Yes. Hey, but you know what, though? She plays the Norma role, but her name isn't Norma in this movie. What's her name in this movie? She's Tina, folks. She is Norma-ing the fuck out of this role, and she's the one... who knows what the fucking assignment is. She is filling in for all the stuff we want out of the villain department.

Agree. Honestly, the way she hurriedly rushes to the girls during the period scene, I was like, this is better. She's like a little girl. Oh my God, you guys! All that's missing is the rainbow hat. She just... She gets me. And you, I honestly wish she should have been Chris. Yeah. Swap. You slot her into Chris. I get it.

Emily, I don't know. Emily DeRaven wasn't even on fucking Lost at this point. Yeah, this is pretty Lost. I don't know what. And she was Australian. Is Australian. No, she gave it up for Lent. Now she's something different. Wasn't she on Roswell or something? Oh, my gosh. She was Taz on Roswell. Yeah. It's okay. Not a good role either. What does she do now? I mean, sorry. I'm not an amazing person. Well, aren't you? Hey, Chris. How you doing over there?

I mean, seriously, she was Belle on Once Upon a Time. Terrible. But, like, what has she done? Like, what career has she really done? I think it's more, has she found a role that actually... well suits her acting capacity like i do think that's a bit a part of the problem especially of this 2002 and i don't know maybe we switch after this because it's starting to feel like we're piling on but i think a lot of these people just feel slightly out of their depth

People suffer from it girl status, right? And her it girl status did not last as long. It did not burn as brightly, but she suffers the way so many people do suffer where everyone goes, Hey, I can see that. lead in a show, in a movie. You know, it works for me. And then she gets up there and you're like, not like this. Actually, she's more of a character person and she has a lane that isn't this. Maybe like still photography.

She's got a beautiful look to her. It's just she doesn't really embody characters particularly well. I think that's why she works so well as Claire on Lost because she wasn't asked to do much more than be the pregnant lady. It's understandable. Craftsman days are here at Lowe's with big savings on the tools you need. Save $100 on the Craftsman V26 Tool Power Tool Combo Kit, now at $199. No matter what the project is, Craftsman's high-quality, high-performance products empower you to build on.

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and ultra durable pocket hose copperhead is backed with a 10-year warranty. What could be better than that? I'll tell you what, an exciting radio exclusive offer just for you. For a limited time, you can get a free pocket pivot and their 10-pattern sprayer with the purchase of any size. We'll see you next time. Before we fully shift over to 2013, does anyone have thoughts on Rena Sofer's Miss Sister Day? Oh, I love her. I do too!

Maybe it's because I always hate the fact that she has to die in the 76 version, but the scene when she gets back at these girls and throws the tampon, this is my favorite of the... gym teacher like classic at the girls scenes in this movie and i think that's why i i i'm still like but it's not that Bad guys. You don't have to justify your genuine emotional reaction to the movie. I wholeheartedly believe it.

It doesn't matter that when I look at it, every other guy seems to look like the reserve bass player for Sum 41. That's just... What it is at the time. Also Canadian, so fair. The bras have never been more pushed up than they are in this movie. Like, the Victoria's Secret budget must have been through the fucking roof. There are things in this that...

Just work. Rita Sofer will forever. I will forever have a soft spot for her because she is a days of our lives vet. So she just gets a fucking pass for me. And what I enjoy are the additive elements that she brings to it. She never really reaches the pure rage of Betty Buckley, but I don't know that she's given the opportunity. And her idea of this is to... level with them. I'm gonna level with you here. What you're doing is shitty, and it works. I mean, like, truthfully, her, like...

If you think I'm operating in teacher mode right now, you are sadly mistaken. I was like, hit her. Well, and I would say on the softer side, her moment with Carrie at the actual prom, I do think that this is unfortunately one of those elements that has not aged well where it's kind of like, oh, all these people, they're going to be fat. They're going to be ugly. And I was just like, that doesn't...

make them bad people. You can be fat and ugly and still be a person. So I was like, these people are not this idea that, you know, like, It felt akin to the kinds of things that Tommy's trying to do before we go into the prom where it's like, let's take a moment. This is going to be fun. We can enjoy ourselves. But here you're, it feels like Miss Desjardins was a Carrie and that.

that's how she's relating to this girl. Like that's why she's given her so much grace and support. And it felt like just an additional little bit of insight that we don't get from the other roles and other carries. Yeah. I think that the. The Betty Buckley... Miss Collins. Miss Collins, yeah. She comes off as a little more maternal, Carrie, whereas here she's sort of like a big sister slash friend. Right. Where like, you know, you have like a sister who will like...

beat up your bullies for you. That's sort of what this version of Miss Desjardins feels like, and I like it. I think that aspect of it works. Before we move on, I just want to state, for the record, that I feel like John Simmons' version of Helen here... I think really is additive to this because they keep Sue out of actually showing up to prom, which is a decision I like. Right. And it takes actually her seeing Carrie outside of her normal presentation.

And seeing her in a completely, her perception shifts in the way we normally see it from Sue in other versions of this. It's just in a compressed format of prom. And a version of this happens in 2013 as well. I enjoyed it for this. You really get the sense that if they just for one second stopped, they'd see her as a fucking human being. And it happens. And for that, I appreciate it.

That's actually what I do like about the introduction of the prom scene is because there's, again, it's not shot well, but like everyone's heads turn. You can see everyone. change their perception of Carrie when she walks into this dance, which I just, I just really appreciate that. Again, it offers me as a viewer a catharsis that I was lacking from, not that I knew the catharsis, like I get why it's not there, but like, there's just, I just love it.

One last thing. I didn't know if this was something, how recently y'all have seen Carrie 2 or not, but there's a scene in Carrie 2 whenever Rachel is like...

Rachel the Carrie stand-in, the Emily Burrow character. She goes, and she's in the mall, and she's getting makeup done, and one of the bully girls, Rachel Blanchard... helps her get makeup but it's like all a ploy to get her closer to the party but that scene is kind of remade by brian fuller in this movie where sue helps carrie pick out some lipstick right i didn't know if it was an actual like oh i saw that i wanted

to do a different version of it, but I thought it was interesting that we have two of the exact same scenes in Carrie 2. And this NBC 2002. It's wild how they all begin to blend because there's only so many directions you go in, which makes you wonder how you're going to make a six to eight episode show out of it. We will prosecute that.

When it happens. When it happens. 2026, I'm sorry. The heart-crushing scene is so poorly rendered. I just... And then the... fucking rocks it just it just that part of it feels like a letdown the pilot episode exit also doesn't help and they're double dreams for fuck's sake Double dreams. Okay. So, now let us move on to 2013. And I'm sure we'll touch down various things in 2002 along the way. We probably will. But as I mentioned before...

This is our first real look at what a post-mass shooter era carry is going to look like. And so... I would argue that the one thing I like about most adaptations of Carrie is that the prom massacre and its resulting path of destruction that she carves into this town are not conscious acts. The person we know as Carrie White is kind of shoved into the back of the brain. We see the lizard-brained, instinct-only version of her take over. And she is like the... In 2000...

Two, it is this, but in 2013, she is very conscious of what she's doing. Is that a problem for you? It definitely changes things because... It's not that these people have not pushed her in this direction. But at a certain point, it's kind of like, I agree they have it coming. It's another thing when she points at specific people.

it puts her in a very specific light. And as a result of these outside world concerns, it almost makes this plug into... a lot of King's, you know, pre-fame book coverage between this and Rage and Long Walk where you have a lot of very vicious interpretations of what it is to be a teenager. And so the problem I have with it isn't in its existence. I suppose the problem I have with it is in its execution here.

I think I would feel more similar to you if, if she killed Judy Greer's mysticity. Sure. Okay. But as it stands right now, as it always will stand in this film, she has not. I get where you're coming from, but I don't share the same issues. I think it's more interesting.

because i'm tending to focus on queer readings of things but like if we look at this we we basically amplify the gay in the creative team so we move from a queer male screenwriter for the 2002 and then we have have a queer male screenwriter for this film but then we also have a queer female director and part of me is like we made this movie in part like if you read through the whole wikipedia page the reason they wanted to remake this is because they consider

this era to be a bullying epidemic so then you give the reins to Carrie to hypothetically people who were bullied I don't know maybe that queer rage is just alive and well in this version of Carrie but I'm glad that you pointed out screenwriter, though, because while, yes, Roboto Aguirre-Sakasa does have a screenwriting credit on this, the other screenwriting credit is for Lawrence D. Cohen, aka the screenwriter of the 1976 film.

So this is like, oh, we took that script and Aguirre-Sacasa just did like a once-over on it. Yeah. And listen, I'm not discounting that interpretation of it. It makes a whole lot of sense. But... Once she becomes that active of a participant, the buildup to that is that she is not, this isn't a reactive thing. This isn't something that she knows she has, but can't.

fully control. She is like Darth Vader with this shit. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, she literally just force chokes people. Yeah. And to me, it's like... like the energy just, you know, she kind of unleashes the energy and doesn't like specifically direct it at people. It's just happening around her. Right, exactly. It is. That being said, I do think it's also a reaction to the shift they make within Margaret. Because Margaret in this adaptation now has much more of a...

She's a physical threat. Everyone else is kind of like, I have a psychological hold on you. But she is very prepared to smack a bitch in this. interpretation. And she has a self-harm element where in order to not participate in this godless, secular world, she will destroy her own body to remain holy. And where did Carrie learn it? She learned it from you, mom. So if that is your main primary parent example.

of how you deal with this world, and then you do actually gain power for yourself, this is probably how you're going to react to it. It's not without... basis it's interesting it feels like a different kind of religious hysteria like I know we compared Julianne Moore's performance as like oh she's kind of going back to the Piper Laurie model but it does feel like her her religious fervor is on a slightly different I don't know angle level whatever you want to use in terms of euphemism like she's

she seems way more devout than the 76 version. Like that's why she's cutting herself. There's a, there's an element of suffering that she has to endure. It is endurance. Life is not something that happens. to you it is something that you must suffer through to get to the other side and the more suffering you endure the grander your prize and her initial desire to kill that baby comes from this is sin. Oh, no, no, no, no. This is a test.

If I can get through this life without killing this baby, that requires more suffering. And so that is why I will keep it alive. And all of a sudden, the motivations for this particular tag, it does start to line up. I may be challenged by it, but I would also say... I like the way this edition challenges a lot of these things versus 2002. Yeah. And keeping it on the queer tip. So. How dare you.

My apologies, I'm already blushing. But Chris has a closeted, you know, lesbian friend who gets set on fire in this. And I don't believe that's a fucking accent. She's a flamer? Because all the other deaths of those bullies are targeted. For a reason. Chris's face that lives above her bed is shoved through a car window. It's so good. It's so fucking good. Those twins who will do anything to avoid Chris's wrath end up being trampled.

There's all this stuff happens. And I, and I do one, I guess I believe in them being targeted in these specific ways. And as where I bump is. this other thing, but it is grounded in the script and the movie we watch. And then she also specifically spares Miss Desjardins as opposed to the 2002 version where she simply... avoids the ramification via her own strength.

Refresh my memory, Patrick. I know Mrs. Sheridan survives in the book, but is there a conscious moment from Carrie sparing her in the book? I believe she gets shoved out of the door by the rush of people. before Carrie can truly lock it. Just before they close. Got it. What do we think of Judy Greer's misdistriting here? And I confess, I...

I don't feel like she made that much of an impression, which pains me to say about Judy Greer, but I think it's the thing where I just prefer Betty Buckley's and Reena Silver's iterations of this character. Yeah, I would agree. I would agree with you. She's just there. I mean, she's not Gabriella Wilde as Sue Snell, who I cannot even be there. There's a non-edity in terms of performance. I don't know that it is a character thing. She just...

is either not up to the task or nothing is on the page for her to do. She's the Emily DeRaven of this movie. Nothing is. Oh, God. As Tommy gets more of a performance than Sue Snell. I get the impression that Patrick just doesn't like the Tommy's. Well, I mean, like, we touched upon this when we were talking about it in chat, Patrick. You think that the character...

is done poorly or is it tainted by the stink of Ansel Elgort? I mean, the sex pest thing does not help. Do you just not buy him as a nice guy? In 2013, before the sex pestness of it all was revealed... He was heartthroppy. Yeah, I mean, but again, like, if you ask me to remember anything this Tommy Ross did from this movie, I'd be hard-pressed to tell you. Yeah, it's wild that, like, listen, I love... William Catt as Tommy.

But for some reason, nobody else has seemed to know what to do. I think because they view the way Tommy is presented in 76 unique to that time period. There was a time period when there was a golden boy in your school and everything he did was... fell into the right path. And in these other variations, they're trying to make a Tommy for the times. But ultimately, he just has to have a vein of decency.

And Elgort has a problem portraying that on screen for the most part. It's also why he sucks in West Side Story, a film I love, love, love. But you could catapult him out of there in a fucking half second. He is a real miss for me in that one. And here.

I'm going to be the weird, like, naysayer on this. I've never had an issue with Ansel Elgar's performances. I think he's totally fine in West Side Story. And again, I think in Carrie, he's totally fine. He's just not memorable. Like, he's not giving me anything that is memorable. And I would say that is partially up to the – it is focusing on other areas. And I'm not going to complain that the women here are given more to do than guys because I have the rest of art and time for –

Plenty of male portrayals here. That being said, Tommy just has to be that one thing that refracts Sue and Carrie's belief here. And I do wish at some point the sort of... This particular movie alludes to the fact that Chris is also pissed that other people have not gotten behind her on the Carrie White eat shit. They just have to get information behind this. And she looks at Tommy and goes, that fucker is not in formation. And I just wish there was one component of it.

of her being jealous of Sue and Tommy's relationship because it is so simple that, but she can't, she can't do that. She, that's not in her makeup. I do like Portia Doubleday's Chris. I mean, again, as a whole, the biggest issue with this 2013 one is there's just not enough different about this.

to make it stick, but it's a serviceable adaptation, and I do think that Portia Doubleday is leaped by years above. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, that's the bummer of it, is it's constantly living in a shadow. of the almost exact same movie. And I do wonder, like, we can't get into the conversation of what will you do different because it's not here and we can't decide upon that.

But, okay, because I remember when this one was coming out, though, the big thing was, okay, why are we doing this? Well, we're going more for the book. You know, we're going to show more of the town's destruction. But there were always these rumors that was like, well, that was the intent. But then the studio stepped in and they kind of derailed camera.

Lee Pierce's vision, and they wanted it to be more like De Palma Stone, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I guess, Patrick and Gina, do y'all have any insight into... I want to say what happened, but that makes it sound like this was like a clusterfuck of a movie, which it's not. It's just a movie that's there that exists.

It feels like they walked back what the original intention was to play it safer, and that doesn't seem like it was a creative decision. It feels like it was a studio. It's absolutely a studio-driven thing that somehow... audiences would not accept variations to this story. And as such, what they take out of it makes those other changes feel more jarring.

and out of place as opposed to giving them a whole, they just, and they also just like, it has to be 90 minutes. It just cannot be an hour and 40, which is fucking nuts. Yeah, because that's the other thing, right, is I don't think we'd be having these conversations about like, well, are the performances good or are they just kind of there? Because...

The fact is that none of these people have an opportunity to do anything particularly new or novel because the runtime is constantly just clipping at their heels. And they've got to hit these touchstones. Otherwise, it won't be Carrie. And it's at that point where you just go, did fucking re-release Carrie? Put it back in theaters. Have you all heard about the alternate ending? Yeah, I've seen that shit. Yeah, it was a weirder and creepier ending. And the studio was like, no.

Which I think it fails at in terms of there's no Carrie ending to this. There's just more like, yeah, that's way too much power for one person in a grave. And you're like, the fuck? She's dead and she's still mad. Craftsman days are here at Lowe's with big savings on the tools you need. Save $100 on the Craftsman V20 six-tool power tool combo kit, now at $199. No matter what the project is, Craftsman's high-quality, high-performance products empower you to build on.

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i don't think i either ending of this 2013 they're not satisfying like neither one of them is satisfying it's i i think it was one of those things where when i saw this in theaters i was like yeah that was fine but i think i was just so crushing disappointed because i think in the in the the

the months leading up to the release of this film, it was very much like a, why remake Carrie? What are you doing? And we had those quotes from peers who was like, we're doing this, we're doing this. And you, again, like you want like this.

director of boys don't cry like she's got the fucking goods and clearly they just didn't trust her with it but they still let her go out and do the pr blitz where it sounded like she was actually getting to release the film she wanted to make they want the glow They can't handle the shine. Oh, God. Well, and leave it to, I mean, again, I love Mike Flanagan, but, like, a straight, white, cisgender man. Like, okay, you can change up Carrie for us.

Right. I wholeheartedly agree. I think that she's done dirty multiple times. It's not like she's not working. She does TV constantly. But she got fucked out of a movie career because... MTV couldn't handle the heat on stop loss. And then she goes, fine, I will do a standard teen movie and I will weave my, what I find interesting about this into it. And the studio's like, I don't know, it's not enough like this 1976 version. It's like, well...

That's, you don't fucking, it's not a, we're not trying to do psycho here where we just make it beat for fucking beat. We might as well. It should be a universal theme. that can apply to any generation. Because bullying is eternal. Truly, yeah. It is, and where it is. In this particular version, there are elements they're trying to bring up, but they also pump the brakes on. Some of it is necessary, some of it isn't. Because her being posted online...

for Carrie White, who doesn't have a fucking computer in her house. She doesn't have an online fucking presence. But that's also the only addition, because I remember, again, I remember I was reading, I was consuming all of these press interviews. Yeah, we're going to update this, you know. Oh, this time the bullying involves...

like online stuff and i was like oh but that's literally that that's the beginning and end of it like oh it's online that's it like you don't ever you don't delve into that further or even use it more Considering its presence is so much more felt in society in 2013, it's almost like Carrie Toon. I was going to say, Carrie did it. That's the thing. I think...

The interesting conversation that we haven't had is that Carrie 2 is actually a better Carrie remake than the two Carrie remakes we actually got. Yeah, ding fucking ding. Well, you had your chance to take it, and you chose this one. Audience has said no to Carrie 2, so we're just going to keep giving you Carrie over and over and over and over until you like it. I mean, here's the thing. If Carrie 2 had come out in...

place of this one I think we'd be having very different conversations about it but unfortunately Kat Shea's interpretation got swallowed up in the oh I fucking hate teen slasher movies even though it is not a teen slasher film also Columbine was released i think the same year as column nine yes that deals with the instant ramifications of it whereas these other things are living within that world without really necessarily engaging

in the story points. Because one could argue that Carrie here is walking into that prom with telekinetic automatic weapons under her. Hell yeah, she is. It's the boys up here. I mean, I think it's very funny, Patrick, that you're just like, I don't know if I can reconcile with what this means for the character. And Trace and I are like, mow those motherfuckers down. I would have taken like a fucking Chloe Grace Moretz voiceover. Like, just fucking try something on me, you fucking ass.

assholes like as she's walking into this prom which i mean i guess we haven't discussed chloe grace moretz's carrie what do y'all think then let's get into it baby this is uh I understand the impulse. You've got this actress, and she's young, and she's up and coming, and people seem to be engaged in what she brings to the table. What are... movies that we have that we can get going that you can plug her in something plug it's on the tip sorry the queer tip as it is so when you

insert her into this. Not to keep that game going. The repercussions of that is that she comes off less like someone who is bullied because she is an outsider. part of it begins to feel like she's bullied because Chris is jealous. Sexually jealous. Yeah, I have no problem with Chloe Moretz as an actor. I think she's a fine actor.

think she is woefully miscast in this in this role and like they are not even attempting in the slightest to ugly her up she's just a beautiful girl yeah like they put a little bit of her Just a little bit of hair hanging on her face. I can't believe they don't just add zits to her face. That would have gone a long way. She has the best skin in the world. She is glowing. Yeah, she looks amazing.

Like, Sissy is glowing in the prom scene, which makes it such a stunning moment because she is finally happy. She is finally getting a taste of fitting in acceptance. Chloe Moretz looks like Carrie if Carrie just walked into school after applying to a 17-cover model contest.

Right. I just got back from my Mac makeover at the mall. She has, like, she's one bottle of leave-in conditioner away from being at Runway. This is a problem. This is basic as a very attractive woman, but I think, and we kind of touched on this, too, with the Angela Bettis of it all, but I think... Sissy Spacek's body language really communicates Carrie effectively. She always looks like...

she's expecting someone to hit him. And I think for you, Gina, especially, Angela Bettis' body language was just too far in that direction. And then Chloe Grace Morales is like, what? I'm having my best life. Hey, girl. Like, I didn't know what a period was, but other than that, you know, I'm a little tepid, but other than that, you get to know me. It's just, it begins to strain credulity. In the, even the post-post sort of, she's ugly, wait.

You take off her glasses world of not another teen movie. Yeah, it's very glasses and ponytail, isn't it? Yes, it is. She has, they can't even commit to dirty hair. They can't commit to making her look pallid.

They just, they have to make her, and she's a gorgeous girl. I think all of the women who have portrayed Carrie are gorgeous women that you just have to commit to a fucking direction. And they just, for whatever... reason and my guess it is the studio going no no no no no no which we we cast a gorgeous woman she's got to look gorgeous this isn't um i don't know fuck god damn it like this isn't star wars we're talking about like what

Carrie fans out there are so precious about Carrie, you know? Yeah. You say that, and yet you say, like, it is so much worse now. But every other presence that you meet online who says they like something. It's past tense and they've moved directly into hating it because it's encouraged. It's, it is a realm in which you meet like-minded individuals who are all can be just as toxic as you are. It's just more.

What did I say today in our recording? It's so much easier to hate something with a group of people than to like work to find love. Absolutely. I'm going to be very facetious, but I could legitimately see an interpretation of this where we keep speculating about Mike Flanagan's version. I could see him doing a version where we don't even go to the same school as Carrie. but we decided we hate her and we just cyber bully her to the point of near suicide because yeah

That could happen. But this is where I do kind of want to circle back to something that Gina said, and we all kind of dismissed it because the casting's already been done. But I do think, unfortunately, the reality is all you have to do is put a fat body into the room.

role of Carrie and you don't need her to act any which way like she could be on the track team she could be part of the yearbook staff she could be living her best fucking life and your Carrie story still works with a fat body at the center of this or a black body. All those things are on the table because if you go through the list of things that you absolutely need for Carrie White, the vast majority of them are story and character based. And yes, you have to have someone who is disconnected.

from a modern sensibility and is not wearing store-bought clothes and all that. But their race, their sexuality, their gender presentation, all of those things are up for fucking grabs because they just have to be an outsider. Yeah, the reason I did say race, by the way, is because if folks are looking for a kind of alternative Carrie text, Tiffany D. Jackson is a YA writer, and she wrote what is basically a black Carrie book. It's like nearly the same beats. The only difference is...

that she is basically trying to pass for white because her father is embarrassed that he slept with a black woman. Is it a period piece? No, it's like contemporary. Wow. It's just, it's set in a small southern town in the States, but it's really interesting. I'm running. Not walking to put that in my mouth. The weight of blood, by the way. Fantastic. I feel like in this particular interpretation, you have actors who are just of an age to have a distance from it to truly portray it.

That being said, you have a Billy who I think has a lot of menace to it, and I really enjoy that from him. He also is a little bit more in the driver's seat than I would like. I want... more tension between him and Chris of who is in charge of being the worst. I think the actors are capable of it. But again, I do feel like there's a little bit of soft pedaling as to we want bullies, but we can't make them the absolute worst. And that is just opposite of what the text to me is.

I was not alive in 1976, so I don't know. Was this level of bullying that is displayed in Carrie, was that something that a lot of people could say, yeah, that makes sense? I feel like every time I watch Carrie, I'm like, this is extreme. Like, this is real. Like, we'd be pressing charges. A kid who grew up in the suburbs of Houston, Texas, I watched all these carries and I was like, this is a lot. I will say, and Gina can speak for her experience, that...

this is a matter of degrees, what happens in Carrie. Because it's all informed by the malicious nature of teenagers in a caste system. And then you amplify that by small town and you amplify that by just the beam is broken in the Stephen King universe and Carrie has come out with the ability to have telekinesis. Yeah. All these things are matters of degrees, but... there were kids who just fucking got it. And yes, I was uphill from them, but not by that much.

and I got it plenty. I got the shit beat out of me in grade school, in middle school especially, and even in high school. Honestly, a really true-to-life carry would take place in middle school. Yeah, I mean... that is like when people are peak cruel because by the time certainly for me the worst bit was middle school and then by high school I was pretty much just ignored.

Yeah, you're just like, oh, these people are trying to bully me. I'm just going to fucking walk away because I don't have time or patience for it anymore. The cast system that's always portrayed in so many teen high school movies, that's kind of how I felt my middle school was. Whereas high school, we had cliques, but everyone kind of kept to their own clique.

The cliques didn't fight with each other. There were people who were well-known, but it wasn't like, oh, popular meaning you have power, whereas that was my experience in middle school. Well, and I'll confess one of the things, like, I think that this is a very much a Stephen King truism, right? Like he loves to write teen bullies and even preteen bullies. Like for me, some of the scariest parts of it, and I've got it on the mind.

just because we know that we've got this fucking HBO prequel series coming down the pipelines. But it's like middle... Like middle school or preteen kids with things like switchblades and rocks is way scarier than anything that Chris is doing with this bucket of blood. Speaking of characters. What is our feeling about the buckets of blood as they are portrayed in both of these movies? Because I feel like 2013 has a real solid element to it. It feels...

It looks like a bucket of jelly. The 2002 one is like... No, no, no, but the amount of blood that falls onto Carrie is, oh, 10 buckets worth. Like, it is 10 buckets worth of blood. Yeah, and it's bizarre because it appears to dry on her immediately. And such a specific pattern. The pattern here is so delicate and intricate. You can tell that they have a thousand mock-ups of how she's going to look. And they've created mold so that it only lands on...

her a certain way, whereas in Carrie 2002, they paint her face with the exception of her eyes. She looks like, you know what reminds me of, remember, you ever seen Wild at Heart? Oh, yeah. Diane Ladd face and lipstick. It kind of looks like that. It's an intricate pattern. It's very specific. But I will say, for the record...

I think the 2002's bucket is big and heavy enough for me to believe that it goes a story and a half and knocks someone the fuck out. Mary Poppins brought that bucket to the prom. Like... god the the the shot of the blood pouring i was like this is like seven seconds like what what are we doing yeah Chris, like, basically took a trunk and was like, fill it up because I need all this blood to go down on Carrie. But the 76 version looks the best, yes.

Here's the real issue. Is trying to extricate these movies... And view them as their own animals. And they should be viewed as their own animals. It's hard to. It's impossible to, I would argue. It's really, really difficult. And, you know, it's not like 76 is perfect. Wow. Isn't it? I mean, you're doing it in tires. I've come around to its defects as...

as literally being that fairy tale presentation. It goes from fairy tale to dream to nightmare. And it works on a psychological level that it's hard to untangle. Right. I'm sorry, y'all. This is a segue, but I am looking at this actress who plays Sue Snell, and I'm like, who the fuck are you? Who is Cypress? Apparently she was the Brooke Shields replacement in the remake of Endless Love in 2014.

Oh, great. Perfect. Sure. But, like, who? Talk about, like, having no screen presence. Poor Gabriella Wilde. I am so sorry. I hope you have a career now that... used your talents. I think she's a model, so she's probably fine. Well, it's like what I said before about...

you know, not having, you know, not being terribly interested in Tommy as a character. I don't know that these, either of these are terribly interested in Sue as a character. You know, when, like, in the book, and to a certain extent, the 76ers, she's... She's essentially the secondary protagonist. Yeah. I think the 2002 one does maybe a better job than the 2013 one of doing this. In the 1976 one...

Sue is, like, there's a whole shot of Sue, like, very explicitly, like, hey, Sue is throwing these tampons at Carrie. She is on equal playing field. Yeah. Right. And then the rest of it is her. dealing with the guilt of that and her and her disgust at you know it being important to fit in with these people. And I think that that's a huge and interesting element that is lost in the later adaptations. I think there's actually a better, interesting version of this story.

where it's maybe not entirely, but partially told from Sue's point of view. Well, because she's a better audience surrogate. Like, we can relate to Carrie, but also, I don't think we're meant to. We're supposed to see her as the outsider.

Your experience could be bad, but it could be Carrie levels of bad. I think... Yeah, so definitely, there's definitely a there but the grace of God go I. Exactly. Sort of feeling to Carrie. Whereas I think Sue Snell is supposed to be like, oh, we're all that person where we've engaged...

and some bad behavior, but then we walk it back because we feel bad about it, but we're never as bad as a Chris. So it's like, I think, yeah, we're supposed to be Sue in all of these films, but the movies forget it because they're just like, oh, isn't it fun to watch? watch Carrie suffer and then get her revenge. And as such, Sue is given runway in both the O2 and 13 versions.

of explaining herself, but I don't think that either one manages to encompass why she has explicitly taken this turn other than regret and guilt. I believe those can be sparks, but they're not the engine of change. What is the engine of change taking her from I am willing to put up with Chris's shit and do what Chris says to... Fuck it. I'm about to graduate. I don't have to listen to this asshole anymore. I'm going to do this for me. I'm going to give this girl one good high school experience.

And that is the motivating factor here. Instead of being an engine for shit, I'm going to just... I think there's one thing I can do, and that is get my golden boy boyfriend to take this girl to fucking prom and show her one decent experience. So what we need in one of these Carrie movies is basically the scene in Batman.

returns when Michelle Pfeiffer goes home after being thrown out the window in the cat's resuscitator. And she just trashes her apartment. So Sue goes home and she has her fucking mood board of all the prom shit and Chris and all the yearbook photos and she's like... And then she sees a picture of Carrie, and she's like, and then she pulls out her leather and starts stitching it together. Yeah. And in this movie, like, Chris confronts her like, your whole life has been about...

Prom isn't just an event. You already had a hotel picked out. You had a dress. You had the perfect boyfriend. He's coming to pick you up in a fucking limo. All this... stuff is things that you have made important and now you're just going to throw it away on Carrie White and just kind of like, yeah. And wanders out of her room. You're just like, okay, I guess. That, to me, is a script problem.

That's not so much the actress, because she can only say the words that are on the fucking page. No one wanted to clearly step outside of these lines that were so finely drawn by both King's novel and De Palma's adaptation. It's a tough road to hoe. Hey, but you know what, though? How about when Billy gets killed, but Chris doesn't die yet, and then she still tries to run over Carrie?

I mean, that is a legitimately great moment. I fucking hate you so much. I know I'm probably going to die, and I'm still going to try to get you. Joe always makes fun of me for this, but whenever a villain or someone horrible dies, I always want them to, like...

I want them to be tortured for a little bit. I want them to know why they are dying. And just, again, the brief seconds of Chris's face being shoved through this windshield and Carrie walking up and just Michael Myers-ing, like, tilting her head to look at her.

As she dies, before the explosion even happens. It was always me. I'm doing this to you, and now you see what I'm made of, and you shouldn't have fucked with me. And I think, I mean, we've all been bullied. We've all talked about our bullying, but I think as someone... who has been bullied before. This is just, this is the scene I've always wanted to see in a Carrie movie. And as I said, it's why I can never fully write out this version. Yeah. My one note is that she should be aware.

when she lanes in the gas and that she cannot get out because her face is trapped in that glass. And she is too vain to rip her face off to get away from that. I feel like... if you're going to build this story, I need that next step. And someone was like, no, too much. And it's like, why the fuck are you doing this, man? Oh, my God, it's a saw trap. Somebody do the jigsaw voice. Well, Chris, I have some, you.

You took your vanity. I was thinking, this may be a far comparison, but in Sean Burns, the loved ones, whenever the main girl, he's run her over, but she is on the street, totally. like disfigured still trying to crawl towards him the boyfriend to like make her his and she's like Already dead, basically. So we needed Chris to pry her face out of this windshield, jump out of the car, and just crawl towards Carrie. Right. We need her to step out of the ball of flame, like...

I'm not giving up yet. You need to know your order in my life. Right, exactly. Refusing to accept that she has been... Yeah, right. Speaking of deaths, it is time to choose our own death venture. And that is where we decide, of the billions of deaths, to train over these two movies. If you were forced to die in one of those ways, what the fuck would you possibly choose? Oh, forbid, you could just get lit on fire. Or you could be in a car crash.

You can have that car wrapped around a telephone pole or thrown into a gas station. You can get crushed by stairs. You can have a basketball hoop and board not only cut you up the back, but then land on top of you just for good measure. I needed to see more blood on that one. Well, you're dealing with TV. She needed a Final Destination squashing. Truly, yeah.

Then you can get electrocuted either by holding on to a microphone stand or just standing in a puddle. You can get blown up. You can have a giant moon thrown at your ass. get trapped in a burning building. Am I missing? You can trample. You can get your arm cut off by an exit door. I like that one. Are we missing anything?

I had so many notes. I was going to say, how does Margaret... Yeah, so heart exploded. You either get a heart attack crushing or you get crucified, but this time it doesn't make it come. Because you've been self-harming too far. Right, yeah. She doesn't get off on it, whereas 76 Margaret's like, yeah, baby! That's what I've been talking about. Bringing me closer to God. That hand of God is a powerful thing. It sure is.

No. They don't call it a G-spot for nothing. Anyways, Joe, I choose you to go first. Me first? Okay. You know what? I'm a dignified guy, so I'm going to take a very respectful, quiet death of being... being beamed in the head by a giant like 20 gallon bucket of not blood because it's empty at this point but yeah just go out gracefully and you know there you miss all of the the really horrible stuff like getting fried getting burned that just sounds bad so i'll just take these good night

sweet prince in it is definitely an option. What do you say, Chase? I'm grabbing that microphone and getting electrocuted to hell. Absolutely. I have something to say or maybe karaoke. I was going to say, Trace takes the mic, of course. I have an announcement to make or I have a karaoke. just sing and I just fry right there. Also, that seems relatively painless. It might be fast. True.

Well, yeah, I mean, aside from like all of the liquids in your body becoming electricity, I'm sure that's not fun. Gina, what say you? Yeah, I want to take Tommy's way out too. Like I said, again, it's quick. everybody seems pretty sad about his death. They weren't sad because of the way he died. nice person getting hit by a bucket doesn't make you a nice person i disagree i was a nice person before that the bucket is tragic the bucket makes it tragic

I don't look good in a tux, a shirt, a closed shirt like that seems to do bad things to my neck. So I'm going with Margaret O2's heart cracking where it just gets snapped in two and she's like, oops, that's all she wrote. and She doesn't even know that she's gone. I feel like she grabs her heart at some point, right? She kind of does, but I feel like she's more lamenting, oh, maybe I shouldn't have a committed infanticide and tried to drown my daughter. I have a few regrets.

I have regrets! Wait! I regret my choices. But wait, that is how Margaret dies in the book, though, right? Margaret, she heart squeezes her? Okay. She hard squeezes her, which I think you can make dramatic in prose form, but as witnessed here, it's difficult to make sing, and the reason why it was changed in the 76 version. Well, certainly not with that 2002 NBC TV. be CGI that we use for that heart. Absolutely.

So before we cast our whims and head off to prom together, where can people find you on these here internets and what you got going on, boys? Well, we are in the middle of Pride. So Trace and I are actually... doing a couple of guest spots so you can actually catch us if you're listening to those immediately you can watch us at uh so home horror fest it's a virtual queer film festival that's happening in the uk but we're doing a live audio commentary

of Scream 3 so people can come and engage with us. And then we're also doing Chattanooga Film Festival so we're just going to be part of their YouTube offerings and we have a guest episode on Witches of Eastwick. Fantastic. Check it out. And, of course, I can't recommend Horror Queers enough. It is a weekly ritual for me, and I enjoy you both so very much. And so, please, you can be part of the Kill by Kill family and us yours. Gina, where can people...

People find you on these here internets. I write about movies and television and pop culture on my Substack. Gina watches things at substack.com. in Blue Sky and Instagram under Gina Does Things. Do it today, people. Check it out. Don't worry, folks. The body count will continue for the entirety of season six. For myself, for Joe, for Trace, for Gina. Bye-bye, everybody. Bye.