Changing careers - with coach & founder Janey Martino: Kic-Start Your New Year

came and did a double episode. It was last year now because we were in 2025 where we spoke about navigating difficult conversations, not making assumptions and not taking things personally. So outside of being a very regular podcast guest, Janie actually does a lot of things she does. This is not really her main thing. So Janie is the co-founder of Smiling Mine and is also a amazing coach. Janie has a business called Kintsugi Way and she is also

Steph and my personal coach as well. She just has so much wisdom and knowledge, which is why we're so excited about this. And she has also just published two books. So for anyone that has listened to episodes with Janie and wants to learn more. Work with her in some way. These books are a really, really good way to do that. The first one is called The Little Book of Keshiki. I think that's how you say it, which is rituals. And then the second one is the little Book of Goru, which is goals.

them and they're so amazing. I feel like nearly every year I've bought myself a new kind of daily journal or Morning Journal or something to kind of practice, and whether or not it's my ADHD, I've never really been able to stick to them. Or if I do, it's kind of like, I'll do it for a week and then I'll drop off for like three months and then I'll get back into it or whatever.

So highly recommend both of them. They are incredible. I actually got a few DMs when I posted about it, um, asking. And one person was like, oh my gosh, I recognized Janie's name! I'm so excited for this book because I loved her podcast. So if that's you and you're listening again,

you are going to absolutely love this one again. Um, we are talking about careers basically, because at this time of year and we've spoken about this with, um, these episodes to, to start the year is you kind of reflect and decide, I suppose, on what you're doing this year when it comes to comes to relationships, big life

things and career is a massive part of that. And whether or not you feel like you're in the right career and the right job, is it fulfilling you, etc. we cover a lot of that and working out your strengths within a role is this job serving me? Is

the job. Is it something else? And I think because of Janie's incredible, what she referred to as a yellow brick road of a career, um, she's had a lot of experience in trying different things, finding what feels right, and then moving on when it's not right, and that being totally okay. So I think you're going to get so much out of it, I certainly did. Um, and that's all because the rest of it's cold. So I'm going to go now, but here's our chat with the wonderful Janie Martineau.

in the right industry or company? I know that's a very big question to start.

feeling in our bodies and in our lives. Uh, and are we really in our lives? Um, so that's the first question I'd be asking. Like, am I really in my career and in my work? And when I'm there, am I being present? And when I'm being present, how do I feel? Does it light me up and in the moments it doesn't? Why is that? Then the other important question I think to ask is, is the reason that I mightn't be feeling good to do with the work itself, or is it actually something more to do

with me? Because I think one thing I've noticed throughout my career is I often push, I don't like this, this job, or I'm not. I'm not really into this client. And a lot of the time, actually, when I step back, there were things going on for me and I needed to grow or improve in an area that I was actually finding really challenging. And perhaps I was getting negative feedback and I was feeling pretty defensive and down about it. Um, so then that what was actually about me became about

the job or the work? Um, so, you know, is there an opportunity to say, is there something going on for me that this gives me the chance to unpack and improve upon, which will only help me across multiple areas of my life? Um, and then the other thing I'd say is, is it about the actual work itself? Is it playing to my strengths? Um, you know, are there is are there components of it doesn't have to be everything, but are there components of it that I

really love or is it about the workplace, the environment? Um, and could I unpack the work? Yes, I am playing to my strengths. I am doing what I enjoy, I'm just not enjoying the environment. So they're probably the three things I'd say. Is it me? Is it the work that I'm doing and the tasks and the time? Or is it the environment?

admin stuff doesn't light me up. For some people it does. Everyone's different, of course, if people are maybe working on a project that isn't there. Their biggest strength or something that they love. But it's not a huge part of their role. And when they're doing that, they don't feel motivated. How do you kind of which is probably normal. How do you decipher between the maybe the stuff you don't like so much that's just a part of the job? Because then you get to do the big, exciting stuff

and that feeling. Yeah.

And you understand that that's that's part of it. So I think that's what probably what I would say is that what is the weighting in, you know, how much of it is part of the job and part of, you know, moving forward and, and building on skills and foundational and what is it? You know, what part of it is just pervasive? I don't enjoy this, and I'm

not actually using my capacity and using my potential. And I think, yeah, it's exactly the same as relationships, you know, am I being my best self in this relationship, even though we have good times and bad times? Um, overall, if I step back, what is actually going on here? So I think, yeah, that's the best way to look at it in my opinion. I think that's the perfect analogy.

where I exactly want to go? And it might not have to be a big stretch, but is there something I could identify? And maybe it's not advertised, and maybe it's not exactly on the job description, but gives you an opportunity to grow your skills or try something new, but also gives you an opportunity to do something great for the company and your manager, or the person you know and or team that you're working with. And that's

great for two reasons. One is because you're being proactive in thinking about others or how you can contribute more to the company, which is always like teams that have worked for me, that have been proactive. I always think highly of them, and I'm always happy to coach because I think, wow, you've actually taken the time to identify like, yes, it's beneficial to you, but you've also told me why

it's going to be beneficial to me and or the company. Um, and then I guess sitting down with the appropriate person and actually working out, okay, here's a bit of a plan and here's some goals that I've got and that potentially is out of a review process. Like you don't have to wait. The thing I would say about that is you don't have to wait for formal processes to make some of those moves as well. Um, so yeah, and then working out a bit of a plan and saying,

what are the gaps that I have? And then workshopping that with the person and saying, okay, this is this might be a way that I can go and do that. And then it would be looking around and saying, who is someone either at that workplace or within my circle, who might do something similar or who I might be able to talk to? And it doesn't have to be a formal mentor, but talk to to actually find out more. And that even could be someone you don't know. Um,

so I've got my middle son just finished year 12. Um, and obviously that's a time when, you know, he's looking for courses. So I had a similar discussion with him and said, what about finding out someone you admire. You don't have to know them or have any connection to them. And go onto their Wikipedia page and just find out what degree they did and what he found by doing that was that some of them did degrees that had

nothing to do with what they were doing now. So that then gave him a feeling of hope and inspiration that it's not the end of the world. If you pick something and he doesn't love it, and it's similar. If you have those conversations or look at other people's LinkedIn or profiles outside and say, oh, okay, actually, if you go right back to just after they graduated from university,

they might be doing something completely different. So I think that's a really important step to to also realise that the people you might look at and admire and what they're doing now is probably very different.

leave the company. And then I think from like an employer's perspective, sometimes I think like, goodness me, I wish you spoke to me because we could have made something work. And it's that assumption that, oh, they won't be able to make something work, so I won't ask. But I think second of all is the awareness that you can't. I don't think you'll get a good outcome if you go to your employer and say, I don't know, just say you're currently working in, I'm going to use podcasting

for an example. You're editing videos, but you want to become a producer, and you go to your boss and you say, okay, I want to be a producer now. So I don't want to do any video editing. That for a business is so difficult because they haven't budgeted for another producer role. They then need to backfill your role.

And I think as if someone came to me with that, what would be difficult is that they've only considered themselves and they haven't considered the business, which is really important. You have to balance that. So I think that is such good advice and good advice. The easier you can make it for your employer to make those changes. So if you've acknowledged and I think as well, it's like if you're asking to be a producer when you've never done it before, it's very likely there's gaps in your

skill set, right. So owning, owning that and saying, here's what I need to learn. I know what I need to learn, here's how I'm going to upskill, and here's how I'm going to be able to do my job and maybe get a little bit of experience in that. And that way, then I think it's really easy to come to a solution, and you're so much more likely to kind of move forward with your employer instead of kind of leaving them being like, oh, I don't know how I can, like, I really love I love you

as a team member. I think you contribute to culture. You're fantastic at your job, but I don't know if I can just make you a new job on the spot because it's not in the business plan. And, you know, obviously we all have budgets and headcount allocation and things, and so that can sometimes make it harder.

brings you joy, that sort of stuff. So do you mind touching on that first? Because I think regardless of whether you just want a bit of a role change or some responsibility change, or you want to upskill and like work towards something, or you want to completely change your career path, you kind of got to really understand, like what it is you're actually going to enjoy and feel challenged and, um, you know, uh, want to do and feel motivated to do, um, if it is going

to be a big change. So how do people figure that out?

So that's one thing like, what did I love to do when I was younger and when I, you know, a lot of people say at uni or they might have, you know, contributed to the magazine or done really creative things. And so you start to tap into, okay, maybe actually, I am really creative and I've just that's been lost somewhere. And you know, I need to build that back in. So it it does also give you clues to what you used to love and what lit you up. And

would that still light you up? Are you still doing it? Why not? So that's one part. Um, and the other part is, what are you doing when you're in flow? So when you're, you're at your most productive, but also like, you feel good and, and everything comes together. Um, and that's not to say that, you know, there's not speed bumps, but you know, when you're sitting at your desk or you're in a room doing an activity, it doesn't even have to be like formal work, office work. Um, and

the time just passes. Yeah. And you don't even notice that's being in flow. I imagine that probably happens for you both here when you're having those conversations. And that's a really good clue. And then the third thing, which I've done this again recently, um, I love doing it every few years. But I asked a group of people close to me, um, as well as some that I work with, what my superpower was because I really wanted

to hone in on. I believe I'm doing what I love and what I'm good at, but I also wanted other people's perspective. And I actually got some really insightful things that I hadn't necessarily been thinking about. Um, so that's the other thing I'd say is that obviously people you trust, people that are objective as well. Um, and not just going to tell you what you want to hear, but I think those three things pulled together. Yeah, are quite powerful.

that are most important. And I think that's where your values also come in and have an interplay with your strengths. Because your strengths are innate. They're things you're good at. Their skill based values are more around how you feel and how aligned what you're doing is with what you

care deeply about. Uh, and so, yeah, you need to really use both of those things because joy will be inextricably linked to both like but but also I think values aligned work absolutely is where joy is to be found.

holidays and sort of a bit of a slower time. Certainly, you know, in this part of the world to really reflect, but a lot of it is going back and identifying when you were younger and, you know, what did you really enjoy and what was important to you, but also through your life, when have you felt really good about something you've done or achieved and why? And what was it about that thing? And it doesn't have to be related to work or winning an award or anything like that.

But what do you remember rushing home from school and telling your family about? And you know what's made you proud? Like, what makes you feel proud, you know, in connecting with all of those emotions. Um, and then I usually supply people with a big long list as well, so they can actually map out and just start circling, you know, um, trust, integrity, passion, love, joy, you know, and, and most people have big scribbles all over the page and there's lots, there's too many. Um,

and then it's a matter of narrowing them down. And what you'll find through that process is that actually a lot of them, um, clump together, they group together. And so you start to get a thematic, um, and between some of those memories of, you know, feeling really good in yourself, um, and feeling really proud and digging into why, uh, also identifying, you know, words that really jump off a page to you as key drivers. Um, and your why, that's sort of I describe values as that's your why?

That's your reason. You know of what lights you up. So yeah. And then it's narrowing them down to I like to try and get to between, well four and five, four and five sort of key values because otherwise I think and they just then can act as such an anchor. Um, you know, if one of my key values, for instance, is family, um, then do I want to say yes to that job which is going to cause me to travel and be away from the family two out of four weeks a month? You know, it really does help

with decision making. Uh, and it does help sometimes, certainly for me to also realise why I'm not feeling great in a certain work environment.

my values is one way of doing that. Um, but I think, like even with someone when we're thinking of, I think what you said before about your work doesn't necessarily have to be the thing that brings you all the joy in every parts of your job, just like it doesn't have to meet every value that you have. Um, what would you say? Like is the red flag, though, if none of your values are aligned with the work that you do?

and know the ones that are really deal breakers. I guess, again, like a relationship. Like, what are your deal breakers? Uh, and I think that's really good to identify because then you'll also, uh, have more courage, I guess, to make hard decisions because sometimes it is really hard if it's a great job and it pays really well, but it actually doesn't tick any thing on your values list, even it might tick all your strengths or some of your strengths,

but none of your values. Then it might be why you're not enjoying it as much as you potentially could if you went to another workplace that was really values aligned.

that's something I would say. You probably learn. You learn over time, right? There's other jobs that you do first. How important is patience? Because I think it can be. And I totally understand why. Why for a lot of people, especially if they're really driven, they want to just keep going and going and going and building because they've got

this goal of where they want to get to. And sometimes it does take like if PR is your passion, it does take for you to get to that more senior role, to be able to have a role that's 100% PR or whatever that might be. So that could could be quite jarring for people if they're kind of thinking about, well, I'm doing all this other work that doesn't feel good, even though I'm on the path to, you know, what I want to do. How important is patience and how

how do you kind of recommend people? And maybe it's maybe more common for entry level jobs, but also it's for people that might change career paths or whatever it might be. How important is patience and how how should we be thinking about it? Because we live in a world like we think of Uber Eats. Like we can get everything straight away this instant, like Instagram, instant validation. And at work. That's not always, um, or really very rarely the case.

it available now? And if not now, tomorrow. And yeah, so it's I think it's so real, the fact that we are we just technology and we're so used to getting every single thing we want now that we're almost once we get things, we're not even as excited. And I think that's one thing that is so important is, is the process and the journey and working out actually how we can not only value it and and learn patience, which I do think is I love ambition like I,

and I really relate to impatient people. I think it's great. It's that hunger, it's that hustle. But similarly, if we don't enjoy the process and also respect some of Some of the learnings and things that patients will grant us. We won't be as good at what we do anyway. Um, and that's not to say, you know, because there's also that,

you know, you have to work your way up. Not necessarily. Like, I think there's absolutely opportunity for people to jump the queue if they have talent and they work really hard. And but part of that is also by doing the work, you're not going to get there without that. Um, and, and doing the work is learning. And learning is what makes us really, really good at what we do. Um,

and you've seen it. Everyone's seen that play out. The difference when you're sitting around a table or interacting with people at work, people that really know their stuff and that have been patient and have really taken in every opportunity and throughout their process of progression Depression and those

that you know that haven't. And it's you know, there's a far more think about the long game is what I would say, um, is sort of, you know, to relate it, I guess, to a marathon, you know, the people that put in the boring, probably more grueling parts of the training, which is just, you know, rather you just of course, everyone wants to get to the day. Yeah,

but what are you like? And do you even cross the finish line if that's how you tackle a marathon and it's, you know, it's the same philosophy.

a few dot points, at least in each. And I think what people expect is that all of those things, you know, you should put them in a Venn diagram and then all of those things just cross over and you have your dream job. Amazing job. Life doesn't work like that. Just like we said around partners, you know? Now, if I use my career as an example, I have had smiling mind. Perfect example. I'm passionate about it. I love the work that we do. I can use things

I'm good at. Never paid me a cent. Now, that doesn't mean that every everything I've done in my career isn't really valid, including that. It just means that I can't necessarily get everything out of the one thing. So if you're in a job and you're not in a position to move, there are other parts of your ikigai

that you can embrace. Take charge of and enjoy. You know, while you work out either what else you want to do or while you work through what's going on for you in your personal life and in your financial life. So that's that's one thing. The other thing I would say, and this is more of a prod, which I love giving people, um, just to put a little question mark in their mind is what part of I can't because um, or. Yes, but is to do with construct and constructs that you

have created for yourself and potentially your family. But I think then be real with yourself. So that's the one thing I would say. We there's a lot of stories that we tell ourselves, and there's a lot of ways that we justify not necessarily being as happy or engaged as we could be. And a lot of it is built on a construct that we've actually created for ourselves. Um, so it's just really that's the little prod New Year's prod that I give. Um, so ikigai gives us an

opportunity to have breadth And engagement in other areas. If we want to, and really discover how to bring that into our lives, if it's not already, particularly what the world needs. There's so much to do out there that you don't get paid for, that you can use your strengths, you know, um, if you want to. That can really light you up. So it's not all about, um, money

and climbing the ladder. Um, and also the last thing I would say is I think it's also potentially not focusing too much on what things look good.

conviction in it. That's when I'd be like, okay, well, I don't know if you'll be the right person, but I think that's I think there's an assumption that if you have, you know, changed career paths like you have, that it's always bad when it's not at all like there's so much more context that that matters around it.

But again that's a construct that says yeah, that looks better if I have, rather than sitting in front of a potential new employer and saying, do you know what I actually, rather than being somewhere that I just knew wasn't a values fit for me, I decided to get really proactive and make the change straight away, because I want to be in a workplace where I'm really contributing and really engaged. That's powerful. Potential manager is going to be unimpressed by that.

it's not personal. It's about what you just did, like it was about you and how you felt in that organization. That's right. You want values, land, work. And so I just want to call that out because I feel like when people do that, sometimes they want to email them afterwards. I have before actually and said, like, hey, this is maybe not the best thing to do in an interview.

much of a divide between work and life. And yeah, the work started then, like during Covid, covering expenses for like at home stuff, because like, if you're working, like your desk or whatever. Yep. I think what that also meant was there became a bit more of a blurred line on the expectation on the workplace. And I think people expect more than ever from their work to and for their job to, like, solve everything in their life. You know, if they have bad mental health, it's like, oh,

it's because they don't. It's because of my job or whatever it means. I think it's happening a little bit more than than before. And obviously, what the danger is, and it's like anything, if you put every expectation on any area in your life, if one thing goes wrong in that, like you will just be crushed. Like if your whole life is your relationship, like, that's super, super, super dangerous if your whole life is your career, etc.. Do you mind talking to that a little bit more?

Because I just think it's really important because sometimes people think, oh, I'll change your job and my whole everything will be solved, but it's not always the case, right?

There will be something in there that is part of you that you don't like. Yeah. Or if it's a book that someone says, oh, you really should read this and you start reading, it's like, oh, this is crap. It will usually be because it's hit some kind of nerve. And that's exactly the same if if you're in a workplace and certain things are coming up for you there

to be explored and not just explored. To blame the external circumstances, although that that may be valid and that that's okay, but also an opportunity to turn inward and say, how am I showing up? Yeah. How am I contributing to this feeling? And I think in life, not just in work, if you can do that and own your part,

then life will be better. And then when everything isn't perfect, which it never is, and when you're only enjoying, you know, a smaller proportion of your work and you do need to continue there, then it is easier if you are still showing up and doing the work on yourself to make that optimal. I honestly believe that also you're just way more fun to be around. It's a pleasure to be around people who own their part and you know

that take responsibility for themselves and the role that they're playing. Um, it's it's very refreshing. And it, it shows other people how to be as well. So yeah, I think it's that's a really great challenge to sort of take into a workplace. The other really good tip that I actually I'm going to credit her, but Debbie Lee, um, who is the careers counsellor where Henry goes to school, made

a really good point talking about the 8020 rule. It was really around decision making and obviously, you know, year 12 making a decision. But I loved it more generally, which was you're never really going to be 100% on any decision you make or anything that you do like that is just unrealistic. But if you're 80%, it's bloody good. Yeah. And then see how the how the percentage changes over time. And I really I just love that. Yeah. The wisdom of Debbie Lee.

I'm going to get? And that's a scarcity mindset of what if it's just a stage and a phase and blah blah, blah, etc. but I feel like that actually applies so well to like a lot of decisions we make in our lives outside of career too.

definitely in the 90s. Like, I knew it was something that I like, definitely wanted, felt right at the time, etc. but there wasn't. Of course, there was other considerations that were going on in my mind, but it's so good and it's what you've spoken to a lot laws this year, and leaning into is like the decision you make is going to be the right one. And like not trying to pre-empt what that hindsight will be because hindsight only

happens after the fact. Um, and just really leaning into that decision and being okay with the learnings that come from it, whether it's like you look back in hindsight and think, yeah, I'm so glad I did that, or okay, I'm glad I did that, but now I'm in another pickle.

What is the next best decision? So I can take a different direction? Um, and it's really, you know, I think it's. Yeah, it's a great way to live.

Steven Bartlett. Actually, no, it was on Mel Robbins podcast, and Steven was talking and he was he was talking about he used an example of someone in banking, and they've been in banking for like their whole career, 20 or 30 years. And they weren't happy, but they wanted to. They were thinking about, oh, if I leave, like, well, what if I can't get another job in a totally different career? What if I do? Like, I don't make

money from that. What if it's a disaster? And his kind of response back to that is like, well, that risk seems so small compared to spending another ten years in something that brings you no joy. And we so often don't think about that, but we just have to trust. And I think that's like what the biggest learning that I've had in, you know, having the pleasure of working with you this year is just trusting that things will

be okay. And especially if you have a mindset like I did where I was like, no, things won't be okay. I have to control everything. Otherwise it'll be a disaster. Like, I know we have some cloud things that also think like, yes, yes, there's many. It's just letting go and and trusting that like it's, you know, there is a, you know, a zero point. It's like with anxiety there's always that always that 0.001% chance the worst thing will happen, but there's also 99.9% chance that it won't.

devastated about missing out on a job. Ever. I could not stop crying. I mean, I was a lot younger, but also, I felt like everything I saw for myself was over. Now I look back on that now and think that would have taken me in a direction that I know would not have played to my all my strengths, particularly the the really big ones. Uh, and it wouldn't have been right for me at all. But at that moment I was devastated. Now that decision was made for me,

and it took me a while to get over. But I can look back also in retrospect and see that was actually me being looked after and being taken in the direction I needed to go. So that might not happen in the moment, but I can guarantee as being a lot older than certainly both of you, and I'd say nearly all of the listeners that that will happen, that will happen all through your life, where a decision may have been made for you. And at the time, um,

certainly in your career it felt devastating. But it will actually, in retrospect, have led to something else that I am sure will be bigger and better and more aligned.

I Absolutely. I mean, I've changed careers completely, doing the coaching, you know, and have moved into that work and, and sort of away from more of that sort of straight sort of business work. And that does feel like a leap. I'm doing a hypnotherapy degree. I just I feel that we put barriers in front of ourselves that don't need

to be there. But like I said before, a lot of it is stories that we're telling ourselves about why we can't do something and there's always something that's underneath that. And usually it will be fear. Or it could also be about like, what will people think? Like, does that seem weird or. Yeah, but what I would say is, and I've been cruel enough to one of my clients recently to she's a fantastic writer. And so I've made her do her eulogy as part of her homework. And. Wow. Yeah.

But the reason is that I think when you consider what you might like yours to say, what would the content be?

and that aligns with your values as well. Uh, and When I think about my career, it's the thing that I've never been paid for that I hope people speak about at my funeral, um, which is smiling mind and well, obviously also hopefully that I'm a good human, but but, you know, career wise, I'm saying what I would want to know is it was about that that had had impact and helped people. And so all of the other things I am proud of and I've had fun doing, but to me, yeah. So I think that's also a

very cool exercise. If you're a bit on the fence or you're thinking, oh, but I can't because, you know, think about it like just own what you want and then write that out and be like, okay, now how do I get there? And make sure it's, you know, make sure your kids put it in, make sure they say it, make sure it happens.