#238 Serge Gatari - How To Scale to $600K/Month With Ease

If I stayed small with only five clients and not 22 , I could have I could have figured out for those five businesses how to get them success . If you see a character online who's like showing off or trying to prove something , it's because they need others to approve of them before they can approve of themselves .

Tell me about rwanda , man , like I want to . I want to know what was it like , what's like growing up there , what was the experience like ? Do you go back there often ?

When I grew up there , I grew up with my grandma and my three older brothers I have three older brothers and you know a lot of people online or everybody who's an entrepreneur always has that like hey , when I was young , I used to sell stuff . I used to do this , but for me , not really . I've never had the . I was just a regular kid .

I used to go to school . I was good enough in school where I could get by easily without necessarily having to put in a lot of effort , and life there was pretty chill , chill like . We had a good life . We , you know , we never missed of anything .

We weren't like uh , like um , we weren't broke , we were chill , we were kind of like , you know , middle , middle class , somewhat upper class and um , and it was , it was , it was a beautiful life . It was a beautiful life . It's just that at 13 then , uh , we got the visa to come to canada .

So from zero till I was 13 years old , I grew up there , went to school and started high school and then in my first , uh , after my first year of high school , then that's when we came to move to Canada .

So for me , in my mind , moving to the Americas , even though was in the States , is soada . It's kind of like

the same the you , you're kind of the only um perspective you have of the of america is like the movies , right , you expect it to be like the high school and , uh , you know the high school lockers and you're gonna make friends and this and that , so it's almost like um , you kind of like have already lived it , although you haven't , yeah , right , but when I

moved here , it was , it was pretty easy to adapt , because I think the hardest problem is language barriers , uh , but when you can speak the language it's super smooth . Uh , it was , it was pretty chill .

Even today , dude , I was speaking to a studio in scottsdale and I just said to the woman that owned it you know , do you have any other guests that potentially could be in the same niche ? And she's like yeah , I do . Actually , I can intro you to all these people . And she said you should talk to this person and this person , this person .

I feel like the environment is conducive towards like helping other people . When you are a person , someone who's putting in the work . Let's say , if you're lazy and you're fucking broke and you're not putting in work , then of course it's not like helping you .

But if you're someone like yourself , who , like you , don't necessarily need to be entrepreneurial , but like you're a smart dude , right , you're clued in . You were clued in when you're younger . It was going to give you that opportunity . America or canada , it's all the fucking one , right ?

It's just the fact that , oh my god , I think that like that exponential growth is available there , and I've even noticed that as well with like when we're jumping in and out for podcasts . If I'm speaking to people , I just I just don't think that behavior is replicated in other countries in the world it's a very interesting observation .

You get to see really rich people and really poor , poor people who are living in crazy conditions , right , and when you move to First World countries like the States or Canada , you get to see now the playing field is leveled . Whether you're poor or whether you're rich , everybody has the same opportunities , right . So for me , the , the .

I even think that the reason why I'm where I'm at today is because I got to live and to experience what not having opportunities look like . So when I moved to can even the littlest , like the smallest opportunities , I didn't take them for granted because I knew what it looked like on the other side . So for me , hard work to me came as a given , like .

I'm like oh , people are like getting paid this much . You're getting paid by hour In Africa , you get paid monthly , you get a monthly paycheck and it's like a few hundred bucks a month .

Here you can work as many hours as you want , you can change jobs every month if you want , and you're going to get another job and you have opportunities of people driving Lamborghinis at 23 .

So for me , when I started surrounding myself with other people who are looking for a better life you know , when I was maybe 17 , 18 , I started getting around people in network marketing and I started seeing guys who are 23 , killing it , you know , driving Lambos , and I was like huh , I don't understand , how is this possible .

So I got curious because I had nothing to lose . I've already . I know what average and bad looks like . So let me just take a chance and try to improve my life by , you know , learning and taking more risks .

And even if you think about it , if you just do the juxtaposition of Rwanda whereby it's manual labor , it's tough labor , it's probably working in fields and agricultural and the input to the output that you receive is so difficult to receive due to circumstances and environmental factors receive is so difficult to receive due to circumstances and environmental factors ,

whereas , like literally , in the digital space or the online space , you have a such a different ability to generate leverage that most guys are have blinders on and don't even think about it , right , they just think just input , output , input , output , continuously . Yeah , no , but this is just so interesting to observe , right , because it's not as you mentioned .

You came from a ordinary family in washington . You have the juxtaposition to you know where . Just give you a context . So I've seen you make over 600k a month . Has

it been in around that period ? Just for context for people now at the moment , we yeah , we average around 300 400k cash collected .

Revenue is a lot higher , but and how does that change your perspective on , like , how you view , how you view life , dude , because you've gone through all the evolutions at such a fucking young age , so now , so now you're at this point , right , and this is where it's just yeah it's very just cool to observe someone from the outside like this , because now

you're at this age , you've hit a lot of these milestones , like guys in their 50s and 60s can't hit .

And by the end of the following year I made 600k a month right . So in 24 months I went from nothing to to to to to something that even I sometimes can't can't believe . I did it right .

So it almost like it happened too fast where it's like I didn't get to sit down and be in the moment and be like holy shit , because to get that transformation you have to be working every day . It's not a I'm in Dubai like buying watches and chilling and doing content . No , it's like I had to compound every month after month .

I didn't have the time to to sit down and be like oh , wow , I made a lot of money last month . How ? What can I buy ? It was okay . We did this month . We did better , okay . What is the next best thing we can do to 10x the revenue we did last month without having to work harder ? Right ?

So now I can tell you the perspective that allowed me to achieve that . I think that maybe would would be a little bit better . Um , I for me a lot of the time .

What I've realized is I spend a lot of time studying businesses that are infinitely I mean , they're bigger than anything that I even want to build personally , like I'm not an entrepreneur who's aiming for like , okay , let me do a billion dollars a year , a billion dollars a month , I don't really care .

But I spend a lot of my time learning from CEOs who've built those companies , or investors who break down those companies and invest in them , and what that has allowed me to do is to look at revenue a little differently than most people . When I first started in the game , I did it because I wanted to be financially free , right .

But the decision-making from that perspective doesn't actually allow you to build a great organization . It only allow you to build a great organization .

It only allows you to build a business that's making you a lot of money , a lot of profits , for you to live the life you want to drive the Porsche , to live in a penthouse , but , like , you're not going to scale to a million dollars a month and beyond because you're doing it for lifestyle Right , for a lifestyle right .

So the perspective for me shifted from viewing the business as a cash cow for me to like , okay , I'm an actually a ceo , I'm a leader , I'm an athlete when it comes to this game of business . So now I'm starting to be . I started being a little bit more detached from the performance of the business , to my worth , like I'm not .

I'm not client acquisition that I owe it . Just because the business is making a lot of money doesn't make me better or worse . But I wake up trying to be like , okay , cool , what , what can I learn from this other business and come in and play it ? But making a lot of money definitely does .

I think the biggest contribution it's had in my life is it's made me more confident in myself .

Like a tech company , like if you looked at Apple and its infrastructure infrastructure , although you could look at the ecosystem of all the products and interconnectivity that has a lot of relationships , how you could basically serve someone , but for but , for some people , when they're getting into the game , they would just think let's look at the coaching program

, let's look at someone else's fucking course over here . It's like you're you're playing the game at a higher , uh lever , basically , and you're playing it at a higher level , which is a difference between , you know , pro athletes and semi-pro athletes . They still train every day , they still go to the sessions .

When I see someone build something great , I'm really appreciative of like , greatness , of like . It's almost like for me , I see business just like any type of art . It's like I like music , I like chris brown .

If I look , if I listen to a really good chris brown song is in how I feel is the same way how I feel when I'm listening to a business breakdown of someone doing um , let's say like you know . Or let's say you look at some company like nvidia that just now is doing like 30 billion dollars a quarter . Like , like you can't f .

Let's say you look at some company like NVIDIA that just now is doing like $30 billion a quarter . Like you can't fathom that , like it doesn't make any fucking sense . So for me , I'm like fuck , they just went 25 years , ate shit the whole way , but now somehow they're just , they're now in like a $100 trillion run rate , something like that , right .

So for me , it's the same way that I react to a business like that . It's the same way that I react to a good music .

It's like I'm just appreciative of like holy shit , because I know how hard it is to think through all the layers and structure it so that the business is durable and you know , sustainable yeah , for sure it's a meditative process right at the end of the day .

The inverse is also true , right , if you're a dickhead and you're an asshole to your employees into your clients , your halls are just going to become a dickhead and people are going to realize you for who you truly are . So it's almost like again your business is a reflection of you right quoting the emit . Now I want to go .

Where I really want to get help with this podcast and for people is you are fucking crazy logical . You're probably the most logical person I've seen in the online space Like . You have the process . You've processed documents , documenting process , documents right , it's like and dude like it's .

I last time I'd seen documents like that was when I was in fucking university or I did like so I did computer science or a variation of it . I want to basically create like a logical path from zero to 100K . That's what I'd love to do with this conversation . But I want to see from your perspective where do people get it wrong when they're building initially ?

So you were at that 30K mark and your house was on fire , basically . Why do you think that's such a house of carrots ? Basically ?

It's kind of like the same solution , it's kind of like same phase you've solved . For the biggest problem that I've seen and we do this with all our clients is that a lot of the time the thing they're selling is something they were given by someone else . Right , meaning the insight that bred the solution is is an earned insight from someone else .

Let's say I know something , I learned it , I found an insight into something could be strategic , it could be tactical , and then I'm like , oh , there could be a solution , a service to be created around in this niche , in this gap . So then I go and teach it and then people take it from me and then they take everything as I gave them .

They do nothing on it , they just take it and then they go market it and try to sell it . That is the reason why , even if advertising agencies work , I personally struggled like hell to get coaches or consultants to pay me for advertising for my advertising services , even if every , every coaching consultant , every business needs to advertise at some point .

But the service market fit was not there . So , like I was selling something that was given by by to me by someone else . So I think that's problem number one you have to go and find your own insight and you have to figure out reasons why whatever you're selling is worth selling and it has to be earned by you , not given to you by someone else .

You can source a bunch of insights from multiple people , but then you collage it and you put it together and it becomes something unique to you , right ?

So that for me , when I stopped selling advertising services and I moved to something like appointment setting , which is a problem that I had faced , I had built my own process around solving it and I just brought that process to other people like me who are dealing with the same issues and , man , they started paying me me .

I don't want to like expose names or whatever , but I had a call with someone recently and the individual was selling like the most wild offer you could ever imagine . It was like something for fucking plumbers or some dumb shit , basically .

And then someone asked him why are you doing that ? And he was like I was given that business by someone else . And the guy said like like dude , like how could you possibly do that ? He was like I was just picked it from a list of niches and so on and so forth .

If you flip that in contrast and we know , I chatted to you earlier saying that I was a podcaster before I was an entrepreneur and the reason sorry , just for context , my business is we build and grow podcasts , right , and we do everything from the execution to the back-end revenue , rev shares , all that kind of stuff .

But how it grew was we had these conversations and people would be like how do you do that with the camera ? Like what do you do here ? Like how does this all connect ? Like how does that make money ? So it just brokered into like okay , we'll just do it for you , right . And this was this man .

This is a half decade experience , right of me like learning the ropes , and it just seems fucking wild to me that someone would actually just come in to come into the market and try sell something that they don't know , right ? Um , it's probably . Why is that ?

But at least for us , well , but yeah , like . I mean , it's like technology . It's like how can I get leads without having to go door knocking ? Well , meta facebook solved that .

Therefore , they also make like I don't know how many billions of dollars every single month , right , so it's like whoever can create the product that gives you what you want without you having to think , work , wake up , get out of bed is the one who's going to take your money . So the industry I mean it's we're biologically engineered to to buy the bullshit .

What's your kind of ?

You need a personal brand , you need a podcast , you need a youtube channel . You need you need people to to like your character . Right ? If people don't like you , it doesn't matter . It doesn't matter . It doesn't matter if you're the best service provider in whatever you do .

As an example for you , I'm sure there are infinite amount of other agencies or the help with podcasts , but I'm sure you could probably dominate the whole entire industry because you practice what you preach , but you also have a brand that people follow . Right for you .

The cost of acquiring clients could probably be one-tenth of what others would have to pay to get clients to trust them with creating a podcast and monetizing it and dude , just right .

Yeah , and even like our production team , like they're all just young guys that like are into that just love podcasts or they just listen to podcasts yeah figure it out , whereas like the audio nerds that are like 40 , 50 , 60 years old , who run these huge agencies , like like they don't understand that the game is on youtube . The game is like short form .

The game is connecting with people . It's like young , it's cool , right , they don't . They don't get that . Basically , um , and I just think your unique mechanism in that aspect is just not being a fucking potato and actually connecting with people , right ?

We recently had a client who's 16 years old , right um , which leads into the second option idea , or to survive in this game , which is ai .

So he started , uh , solving the appointment setting problem with ai and um and now starting to kind of like also get other agencies into it , and he went from like 5k 2 to 5k per month in november , december to in may . He was uh , he cleared 120 000 in a month at 16 right man , that's meant it's insane . It's insane sometimes .

Sometimes I I think of the case that I'm like holy fucking shit at 16 , bro , like not even the money side , but like at 16 , dude , what were ?

I don't fucking know .

So I think the the world of the world of business , especially coaching , consulting agency I kind of put them in the same realm is because some of them do service , other people teach the thing instead of doing the service right , I think we're going to get into a world where people aren't going to stop buying courses or coaching programs or info products just to

learn something . Instead , they're going to be buying the thing that does the thing on their behalf .

So , as an example , instead of me having to buy a media buying course , what if you built with AI , put collage , took all the ads , the best performing ads from 500 businesses in 50 , 100 niches , and you just put them in an AI thing where you feed the AI the data and then you just created a prompt that makes it create the best next iteration of the

potential future best ad right . And then , instead of me having to buy a course and learn how to click on media , buy and set up the business and a manager and create the creative and then launch the creative .

What if I just subscribe to your platform and it just fed me the best creatives based on the inputs from the best creatives that are performing on these ? All these businesses now think through that lens . But for every single solution gap mechanism that exists in the current space . So you , you're a real estate agency that generates leads .

Why what the fuck are media buyers in that doing ? Just setting up a campaign and then letting leads come in ? Or you're an appointment setting agency ? Oh , you're the guy who ? Who sets the leads ? Why ? The script already works . We already know what gets us the best conversion from the best pickup rate .

We know the script that gets them to want to be enticed enough to jump on a call , where we know the thing that gets them to show . Put those inputs into a model and let the AI do it .

That's why , for me , I've been pushing this build and release idea , because I actually think humans , we're , we're all going to go into a place where we don't have to work but a tool .

Technology is going to do most of the work , but it's those who are going to figure out how to put , how to collect the data from a bunch of people , crowdsource the truth , put it into a thing , let it create the next best iteration and then you sell that .

So why , I love the build and release approach which we'll get into is the fact that you're already giving them what they're kind of going to do anyway , which is going to leave , but you're doing it in a much better , commercially viable way . And then they realize well , these guys aren't stupid , let's keep them to work on other aspects too .

So it's just a different way to view the same , so solving the same problem at a higher level . Again , we go back to these higher level problem solving uh approaches . Where did you get the idea for build and release , though ? Like what was the kind of topic there ?

Um , but what I realized is that , man , these companies are churning not because they're , not because our vas aren't sending the 300 outreach per day or getting them leads and appointments , but because they have other constraints in the business . Right , so maybe the offer was shit so we could get them leads and appointments , or we struggle to get them .

That outcome because of the offer was shit , right . Or even when the offer was good and the our appointment settings processes was good , we got them the appointments . They couldn't sell , they couldn't close because either they're really shitty or the fulfillment is broken . They don't have any proof , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah . So that's one .

I was like , holy shit . Well , my product or service is only as good as other other functions in their business . So , true . So I was like , well , okay , so I'm like I'm never , I'm never gonna get paid enough because you guys aren't good .

So I was like problem number one is these guys have a broke , broken businesses and , to a degree , every single business has a broken is broken at some point , right ? Like , if I'm not making 10 million a month , so that means to a 10 million a month founder , I I'm not as valuable to them , right ? So that's problem number one .

But the second thing was if I'm charging 1500 bucks a month and you churn after month two , well , what money did I make ? I didn't make any money . So now I'm having to expend a lot of energy , capital , resources to go replace you , but by the time I replace you , another person is leaving . So I'm like okay , come on , bro .

Like this is this business is not . It's not , it's annoying , right . Here is the thing a lot of people stay small and they get to spend a lot of time with each client one-on-one and then they hide the churn through relationships .

Meaning , if I stayed small with only five clients and not 22 , I could have figured out for those five businesses how to get them success . But my goal wasn't to build a boutique agency and have five clients who pay me and make 5K , 10k per month . That's not my goal . My dream was to build a successful business . So I was not okay with staying small .

So I was like okay , I need a way to get paid a lot of money upfront . And that's where I was like you know what ?

The only way people get paid you up front is if you sell them a one-off thing where you're like , hey , I'm going to give you every solution you need to all the problems you'll ever experience , to getting to , let's say , 50k a month , 100k a month ,

and I'm going to build it , package it into a process that we're going to then implement into your business , into your business . So then that allowed me to solve all the problems that they had , because I could literally tell them like hey , I've had 22 businesses like you every month who deal with the same problem you're dealing with right now .

Trust me , your problem is not appointment setting . You have so many more problems . But in order for me to give you the appointment setting thing that you want , I have to also give you the solutions to everything you actually need . It's not going to cost you two thousand dollars a month . It's actually going to cost you ten , fifteen thousand dollars up front .

And people were like , okay , so this guy's promising me to solve every bottleneck in my business and all I have to do is find 10 grand , 15 grand , to solve it and then they're . They're going to help me avoid an appointment setting agency , a consultant or coaching program that's also $9,000 already . That's not going to help you whatsoever with group calls .

This guy is going to also help me with sales . He's going to collect the sales scripts , the sales process that's already working on his other businesses .

He's also going to set up all the systems that's already working in all these other businesses and he's going to just crowdsource the proven processes and systems from all the things and the offers and he's going to give it to me and all I have to do is be creative enough to find 10 or 15k and people just fucking somehow , even people without money , like

literally people doing less than 10k a month , found a way to pay us , even people from india . Man , that's how . That's how that's kind of like . That's that's where the build and release idea came from . It's .

I realized that in order for me to get really rich fast , I needed to build a solution that was hard to come by and not just be a commodity like , okay , I'm just an appointment setting agency or I'm just a consultant or a coach . I needed a way to do everything in one thing . But , dude , how the fuck do you scale ?

So , as an example , back then we had really figured out a way to scale e-com agencies through a specific offer . So we actually got advertising agencies away from selling just facebook ad to selling tiktok and or back then tiktok organic was blowing up in ugc , so we would place design this offer for them .

Then we would build the appointment setting system with vas and the process and the campaigns and we would launch it . Then we already had that proven sales script for this offer .

Then we already had the process and the systems backend for this offer right , and we also found a fulfillment partner who's already fulfilling on that offer , okay , so he had the infrastructure for fulfillment . So now , even though it's a lot of different things , it's the same thing that every single new client goes through , so technically it's the same process .

So even if we get 50 people to go through it , all we just need is to handle the volume of implement of the people . So let's say we have someone who's doing offer build outs , then we have the department that takes care of uh sourcing training and uh placing three dollar an hour vas . We actually had built an entire like we have .

We had 6 000 vas in a in a in a portal who were at the same time going through education . So they were being educated . So we had actually built a funnel for that . We had built an education platform where they would be like you have to . So well , first we built an advertising process . But we get them in .

We use tiktok , twitter , we use every fucking thing , right . Then we push them into the education process . So we had built a course and only until they finish the course would they get a button to be able to even qualify or be vetted .

And then , once they click the button , then they would move through a pipeline and then the team would vet them and , based on the test score , we would rate them . So , like that's a , that's a department that does it . But , as you see , it's not like super manual , it's . It's still leveraged in a way .

Right , because we're using media , we're using code , blah , blah , blah . And then that department did that and then another department built building the actual outbound campaigns . So , to be honest , one really good growth consultant , one really guy who understands process , sales process and outbound campaigns , can design three to five campaigns a day effortlessly right .

Especially that it's in the same niche is the same , somewhat the same . They're going after the same . Uh , in e-commerce would go off with different sub niches , but it's kind of like the same angle . So it's like phase one , phase two , phase three , phase four buy . Phase one , phase two , phase three , phase four buy .

So at some point we're placing 90 at our peak , we are placing 90 employees into businesses and launching like 40 new campaigns a month dude like , if you think about it , 10 , 15k is fucking nutting for what you're doing , it's nothing . Now that I think about it , for all the fucking thing we're doing , I'm like holy shit , dude .

?

I think for myself , even looking like our sales numbers and calls booked and reviewing , like just reviewing , that level of detail has always just been um , I don't know , it's just been something that I think I can definitely improve on .

But when I look at your systems and your process , it just it just looks soed in Like what made you really go down the fucking nerdy side of all data numbers and tracking . Do you want to launch a podcast for your business but you don't know where to start ?

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But for me , I was like , how can I make our pitch undeniably good , undeniably valuable ? And the only way you make something really good is if it's not a matter of probability , where it's like .

So , as an example , right now , right , I'm actually working on a new VSL , and the new VSL I'm doing is I'm not trying to , I'm literally calling out like , hey , I'm not going to tell you that I have this special system that works .

Instead , I'm going to show you 50 businesses , or I'm going to show you that we're collecting data from hundreds of businesses in 50 niches and I'm going to show you the cost per book , cost per lead , cost per acquisition . I'm going to show you the fulfillment infrastructure .

I'm going to show you the systems we collect data with and then , uh , when you work with us , we give you the processes and systems , proven , backed by the data of the most performing businesses . And that's what you're buying . Don't buy for me because I said I'm going to make you the most amount of money .

No , buy for me , because the numbers don't lie and if you buy from , from us , you're buying the output or the inputs that created these numbers Outcomes , so what we're selling . So , then , it's a way of like making our sales argument really undeniable , right For sure , it's a way to stand out , man , because this industry has become a shit show .

That it's super , super fucking dialed in on that part ? Yeah , what do you think um what's the qualitative but also quantitative ? That it's super , super fucking dialed in on that part ? Yeah , what do you think um what's the difference between , like a 100k a month business and a million a month ?

I know plenty of people have gone to a meal a month , but they've also gone down to like to literally not even being able to make 100k a month because , because they didn't have the brand equity , they didn't deliver , they didn't put so much value into the audience , into the or into the prospects .

Like , as an example , scaling cold audience to a meal a month and staying there is insanely hard . But there is a group of people who are making a million a month with like little spend on ads . Right , and it's because I think you need to get to a million a month .

You almost like need to be delivering like 10 million , 100 million dollars a month worth into your audience . So it's almost like you can only pull , you can only squeeze out or take out what you put in . It's like a savings account for me .

The reason why I go hard on youtube isn't necessarily because I want to necessarily get a crazy big audience , but it's because every single video that I put out is something that I just thought of that is really insightful and I want to give it to people . So they almost like goodwill . I just want to stack goodwill , goodwill , goodwill , goodwill .

And then when I want to monetize , I monetize . But I've already delivered 20 hours worth of content , 20 hours worth of insights , 30 hours worth of value , 20 hours worth of savings , and when I ask them for 10 grand , 15 grand based on what I've already given them , it doesn't make as much of a big difference . So that's one .

You have to have goodwill or else you're cooked like people who literally get leads and they're trying to get appointments and then try to sell . That is crazy to think that you're going to stay , scale and remain profitable . I'll give you an example , and this is actually from a stat . We so I'm building a new sales enablement side of things where we're going

to be building sales processes and systems into companies and then do fractional sales on the back end , and while I was doing research for this new venture , I talked with one of my old closer who's been working on a few companies building their sales teams , and he gave me a company that's doing 1 million 1.5 million , but this business is doing that number with

$250,000 plus $250K to $300K a month worth of ad spend . So one-third , one-fourth of their revenue is advertising just to get leads . That's a quarter of a million buy Ciao , right , but they also have a sales team of 30 closers Just the closers . Closing side is 30 closers Just the closers . Closing side is 30 closers .

Now , for a million dollars a month , a 1.5 mil a month , you would be like , wow , that's decent , because a mil a month is a lot of money every month , right , but what if I told you that we're doing 400K cash plus with one closer , plus with one closer ?

If I wanted to get to a mil a month , I could just spend 200 grand a month in ads and make a really crazy brainer off , no brainer offer and I could get people wanting to buy . That's not the issue .

The issue is , if I think like the easy route , I just go create a really good offer , I spend money on ads and I just go create a really good offer , I spend money on ads and I just promise people on sales calls that I'm going to deliver or they don't pay . Everybody's going to be willing to take the risk .

But most people figure that game out and they stay there , not realizing that business is not . It's a scale . It's a scale that you don't see , but there is a scale . If you take away from , you don't see , but there is a scale . If you take away from people , then you're giving them . The universe comes for you .

It's karma , it's whatever it is , but the marketplace can judge you . It judges you based on ? Are you pulling too much ? Are you giving too much ? Are you giving little ?

And then that's where , even if you make money today and you're making a million a month today , tomorrow ain't promised unless you understand and respect the rules of are you giving more than you're taking from people ?

90% of them don't make it to episode 20 . That's where Vox comes in . Vox creates , manages and grows your podcast for you , on your behalf . If you've not been getting leads , not been growing consistently , you haven't found your tribe and you don't know what to do . Vox is the answer . Don't just take our word for it .

In the past couple of years , we've managed over 35 podcasts . We've also been able to generate over 55 million views with 500 episodes produced , and not only that , generating over $1 million for our clients in products , services and sponsorships .

So if you want to learn more about how you can build a great podcast and have it fully managed for you , schedule a call with me at Vox and we will help you achieve your podcast goals . Man , I fucking love that . That's so sick . Are you familiar with bollardy from coinbase ?

The market will clear you fucking out right , which is basically it will fucking kill you and and this is the irony of the guy selling like fucking 40 ebooks and they're selling quarter of a million and then two months later everyone wants to kill them , right , like that's literally what's happening here exactly , yeah , like it's the it's .

The impact of time , right at the end of the day , is that , yes , you can make that money now , but , dude , that's going to literally burn the brand . And it's just interesting to observe , right , because , uh , even from an outcome perspective , as what we can promise clients I even spoke to someone yesterday about this being like .

I'm actually hesitant to put a specific number on , let's say , an evergreen uh outcome because , like it's multifactorial and in in the small instance of someone coming back and and basically saying that back to you , I wouldn't want that from a brand perspective .

I'd prefer to yeah , I don't know , I prefer to tackle the problem a slightly different way , just so that you don't explode the fucking brand in the process .

Um , yeah you know you mentioned there about the scale up and the deficiency in the in the business this is a very interesting debate because you know you see the bigger companies and , yes , their margins are smaller . But you know apple's margin is smaller because of the fact that , like , they do so much different fucking shit .

But when you're at a million a month it shouldn't be down at that , at that penny level , right ? Because the health of the business is not good and it goes back to traction . Right , if you look at those like just high level , high level metrics in a business , if it , if it looks like shit , it's like your internal body .

You could look great on the outside but you're not gonna last long , right ?

who worked from for meta right , and he's saying that the , the half life of a business , is how fast you get it to the peak , so like , even though in business we're always trying to like , grow the fastest . So that means , let's say , if our , our businesses cap

around a million , two million , three million a month , the faster you get to two , three million a month is also the . This , that's the , the time it takes you to get . There is a time that also take you to go back down to zero .

And he's and they've done research on this where it's like , if it took amazon 25 years to get to where , to its peak , or 30 years , it's probably going to take another 30 years for it to go down . So if it took me to get to 600k a month in two years , technically would have taken two years for me to go back down to zero .

Right , and it's what happens to most people in our space . They go three million a month or they start making crazy claims and then it's here the same time it took them . So for me , I've learned that like you can't , you can't just chase the like revenue and the fastest growth cannot be your ultimate goal . It has to be . It's almost like a steps .

It's like you get up but then you stay there a little bit , just stay there longer . Build a new infrastructure , build a new layer that will support the new layer , and then you stack and you make sure . I think Taylor Welch says this . He says you got to let the ground settle .

I think it says something like that Well , you got to let the ground settle , right ? I think it says something like that where you got to let the revenue here , you got to lock it in .

If you cannot lock in a certain revenue mark , then you don't deserve the next one , because if you go to the next one without locking in this new level of weight that you have , you're going to get there , but you're going to crumble , because a mil a a month , two mil a month is a lot of customers , clients , and it's also a lot of teams .

It's also a lot of zaps . It's also a lot of tracking . It's a lot of end of day reports . It's a lot of it's a lot of thinking of like , oh , this could go wrong . Now you're just thinking , oh , mil , a month sounds nice , month sounds nice . So two meals a month sounds nice .

Yeah , it sounds nice if all you have is a course and ads and a closer and a setter . Yeah , fuck , yeah , it's fucking , it's okay , cool , whatever . But like that's not sustainable Because anybody can get a course on school , get a setter , get ads and get a closer . So you're not going to survive in two years .

Like I have 16 year olds making 100k a month . I'm not gonna . I already know that . Like it doesn't take much to make money online . So for me , I've . I've learned that I need to chase harder games , do harder things and do it . Take my time , take my time .

And yeah , you know , I want to ask you this question actually because it's something that kind of troubles me is that when you see these guys like even like yourself , like the more that you've made , and instantly in the past 45 minutes , you know we were quite similar , we have a lot of kind of similar interests and whatnot I can tell that you're a humble

dude , you're down to earth guy and the more money that you've made , it's almost like you've become more normal and centered and down to earth , right and similar to myself , like dude . Like when I was making fucking 10k a month , I had the biggest chip on my shoulder and then , as the business grew , I realized I was a dumb ass , you know .

And then managing , you know 10 , 15 employees and I'm like I know nothing every day . I know nothing right , and it's a blessing . It's like a blessing . So what I'm trying to say is that as you grow more as a ceo and founder , I become more down to earth to some degree . Someone probably say I'm an asshole . Anyway , what's your take on that , though ?

Because you see some people that move the other direction . As they make more money , they become more abrasive , more like a WWE character on the internet , and it's just kind of weird right .

So therefore , they to show off .

They got to showcase their wealth , they got to showcase everything they're doing in order for others to validate them with likes , with comments , with love and everything like that , and then they feel great , right , and I think it's because , deep down , they don't feel like they're worthy of like without their other people's attention .

They feel like they lack something . Right Now , on the other hand , I think for me , it has almost been . I think , at least , the mindset I've always told myself is that I'm not achieving something great because I need to fill a gap , or that I need to achieve it to be worth something .

I've always had this mindset that I'm like I'm something , therefore I need to build something great . It's like I don't get to achieve success because success makes me . It's like I'm something or I feel like I have the potential . So therefore , it's only right I do something great with my life , right .

But when it comes to business , I think , until you realize that you can only grow to the degree that you can disassociate yourself from the business itself Like , as an example , when you're starting out to make 10k a month is everything new ? It's your decisions , it's your effort , it's your energy , it's your money being invested to get to a million a month .

The only thing the ceo or maybe even multiple , even nine figures a year , the only thing the ceo needs to do is to make sure that there's someone making a decision on marketing , on sales , on fulfillment , on finance , on team , and these guys have to do the work .

So your only job is to lead them and make sure that the vision is exciting enough and for them to even want to be part of your vision

. So for me , I made the realization that , like I , was good enough to get us off the ground . But the next level of success has nothing to do with search . It can be me I'm going to yap online or whatever to get the reach , but the back end when's the last time I opened our CRM ? I don't remember When's the last time I opened our crm .

I don't remember when's the last time I worked on systems . I don't remember when's the last time I onboarded clients . I don't remember . Right now I still do these things , but the function of it doesn't rely on me . So , knowing that , why the hell would I think that I'm it like ? I'm only as good as my team ?

So , like my , my , I'm not successful because I work hard , whatsoever , whatsoever . You know , that's a reminder .

Right , it's like look how amazing this celebrity is , or look amazing this individual is like let's give an example . Like kim kardashian she skims . Everyone's like she's so amazing at making clothes . It's's like she's never even seen the clothes dude . So , that's an extrapolation of like these on a smaller scale .

So it's like if you're devising all of yourself , work from it and that's actually funny , right ? Because when you're at that smaller stage , you're like , oh , like you know , I deserve this , or this is great because I've done it . Whereas when you have the right people in the right seat , they just fucking execute , and that's most of that that's actually been .

One of our recent challenges was putting the right people in the right seat who were capable enough to execute at a high level , that were committed , Because you can find good people , but it's just not the level of commitment , which has been another level of my kind of journey .

Right , it's like , yes , you can get , get good young guys , but you can't get people that are super skilled and also want that kind of vision . Now I want to ask you about about the content man , because , like for me , just being like content dude and having content businesses , actually you'll find this quite interesting .

Um , so I've never , ever ran an ad for my business . It's all been driven organic and I'm a fucking nerd with this shit dude . So I believe that you don't need a big audience , like I believe you can make a shit ton of money from a small audience when you solve a very specific problem for a very specific user . So I've never , I've never run an ad .

I'm not opposed to it , I've just we just never have done it . So that's what I love observing people like yourself who are just a fucking beast when it comes to creating content . What's kind of been your , what was your kind of awakening to it ? Right , cause you're releasing episodes like every every two days or every three days , right .

Now , was I always good and confident in front of a camera ? Not really , but I've always had the confidence to think that it was the right path .

Back in 2020 , I used to go to a cottage with friends who we worked at a nine-to-five with , and I would go in the bedroom and I would just shoot like a little content , right , and I would talk about what I was learning from naval and I posted on youtube or my instagram , I think , and uh , but for me , what really changed it for me was when I saw what

it did for my business , like you know . So , just to give you context , uh , in a in in 2022 , september , we're around 150k a month . Uh , the following month , we did around 340k . The following month after that , we did an almost like over almost 400k cash collected .

The following month , we did almost 600k cash collected and I only spent seven thousand dollars on ads , right , so that's like over a million dollars in cash collected , and I can tell you this it was not cold leads from ads that did it for me . These people were not , were not like , oh , they got set and then they got , they bought no , it's .

It was people who had spent months consuming my content . And it's not content that's flashy , it's not entertaining . I don't entertain people like I'm not talking about stuff that is gonna you know , you're gonna enjoy , unless it's actually interesting to where you're trying to go . So it's specific content , specific insights to a specific crowd .

And the solution and the gap that I was bridging and this is really important when it comes to content is you have to find content and talk about an expensive gap and a really painful gap . If you're just talking about content on how to make like 5K a month , 10k per month , you're only going to get people to pay you . Only so little , so much .

Right For me . I found an angle around creating content . That's talking about half a million dollars a year worth of transformation .

So when I ended up releasing our program back then , which was the you know , the half a mil where we're kind of like build the appointment setting system and the offers and everything like that , well , all I needed on a 10 15k offer . All I needed to make that kind of money is just 30 people , 40 people a month to say yes , I want to buy .

And I had , I think I think I had like 3,000 subs and three to five K subs in that three months where we did a million dollars in cash . What .

I don't because I know that you can make half a million dollars a month with 5 000 leaps , 5 000 really educated subscribers , followers , leads fuck the hundred thousand dollars subscribers , followers who the fuck is out of a hundred thousand people , most of them don't even know what they want in life .

So all you really need a good 5 000 subscribers who have the same pain point and just sell 1% , 5% of them on a really great solution and then retain the best clients and partner with them once they actually become deserving of the attention .

But , like right now , if you don't have a content business on top of the service , an education business on top of the service layer , the product layer , I mean good luck . Good luck paying for ads .

I asked jordan , I said what separates your offer from iman's offer ? And he said demographic . He said he was going after the 21 to 24 range versus the 16 to 19 range and that that dictated everything . It dictated the position of the content and that may seem so abstract to people . They might think what like ?

There's like four years of a difference , but there isn't and bear in mind that's a tiny split . But for you you're positioning the 500k a year business . Yeah , it's , it's , it's quantum leaps , it's bigger games . Again , it's over . It's the same thing being repeated yeah it's bigger . Have you ever read gap selling ?

No maybe man , I gotta , I gotta , send you the book . It's literally exactly what . How are you describing , like , that pain that created that gap ? Uh , effectively it's a B2B sales book , but it's effectively how you're

describing it .

But the reason why I go that pick that is because it's more expensive , it's more and it's more painful because , just like anybody who's , let's say , making 10K a month to get to 50K a month , they're willing to sacrifice a lot . Then what ?

The guy who could sacrifice from zero to 10K a month but then for 50K a month to 500K a month , the , the , the , the , the lack in , like the lack in in character , like that , like that little like , hey , I'm pissed off that I'm not able to get there . It's playing , it's turning in their head a lot more .

It's this , it's like fuck , I know I can do it , I know I'm worth it , because this is what I tell myself every day about the next level of play .

So if you can find the right avatar who's super pissed off about why they're not growing , and make sure that the gap is the as as big as it can be , that's where you get to monetize , uh , and get a lot of value for yourself and for them , of course , you know and do you come in then and take like a percentage on the back end when they're at that

point , yeah , and then you scale , yeah , yeah .

Some people are like , hey , I want to get to 100k a month , 500k a month , but it's like , okay , but have you ever seen what is required of you every day to get there right ?

How many daily leads , how many daily conversations , how many daily sets , how many daily show-ups , how many daily discovery calls if you have a two-call process , how many strategy sessions , closing call taken right ?

Most people don't even know the daily inputs , so therefore , they keep on wandering around , like they're like oh , I want to make this money , I want to make this money . They keep writing on their notebook about what they want to manifest . But I'm like business at scale is not about manifestation .

It's about I know how much money I need to spend today , how many hours I need every single employee to work , every single employee to work , every single employee inputs . I need to know it on a day-to-day basis . So for us , our value when we come in is we need to know this for your niche .

But the way we know this is you need to collect the data on what's already creating the current scale that you have . So if you're making 50k 100k a month , we reverse engineer like what's creating 50k 100k a month worth of cash every month . Then we extrapolate it to 500k a month .

But then we realize that , like it's not just about linear growth , it's not like , okay , we're going to spend more money on ads , then we're going to hire more setters . We don't like that . What we like to do is how can we widen the gap of how much attention we're getting ?

But then , on the conversion mechanism , we don't want to use this typical sales process or like calls closers .

So what we like to do is we like to come in and actually build really big moments of conversions , like maybe could be a webinar , it could be a really good sales letter could be , but then we'll also do , you know , fractional sales , so we'll build the systems to track the data for the current business .

Then , once we have data , then we can set the goal and then we go in and implement , uh , based on the priority of the constraints .

So it could be marketing or it could be sales , it could be fulfillment or the offer is actually not that great , yeah , so we price a low ticket , so we want to increase price , and then uh , so we work on those constraints , um , there's a lot , man .

It's yeah , it's interesting though right , because I know you were discussing before , like the typical retainers and the reality of that and just to give it a context , I think the reason why our business has grown really well is because we had retainers which I call uh , I call like sleep easy at night money . Right , it's like I sleep easy at night people .

People sign on for six months . Yeah , they might not pay whatever , but , like you know , it allows you sleep . But yeah , the back end for us is where we actually made the money , which was sponsorships for people .

So you imagine andrew huberman and ag1 it's actually our company that's doing the deals then it was oh wow , paid interviews was really big , fucking huge in the podcast space . You wouldn't . You wouldn't believe who pays for interviews really huge dude , and then rev shares then on the back of that , then basically on the back of their businesses .

So that's actually like how we , how we made our money , being completely being transparent , which I didn't realize . I didn't realize that in the beginning . It was just that we had a very big podcast that was in our portfolio and he was like hey , can you manage all the sales for our sponsors ?

And we were like , yeah , sure , whatever , and um , so what I'm just trying to say is that you come in thinking it's one thing , but it's actually the other thing which gave us more opportunity , basically . So how do you kind of situate that when you're looking at a business and you're trying to grow it ?

Because if you're just trying to get retainers , you need more people . We wouldn't need more people as a result is what I'm trying to say .

Okay , I like to charge one off fees , or I like to so , let's say , for a business , for a client doing , if they're not well financially meaning they're not printing a lot and they don't have a lot of leverage I don't like to put them on rev share or even even like monthly payments , because any time that their revenue dips they're going to try to cancel .

So that's why a lot of agencies are giving retainer retainers a few thousand bucks . Even if it's low , like two grand a month , that guy will cancel because they're already every every dollar . They they question it . They question because they can see the billing .

They don't have many people billing them so they can actually see ah fuck , he just billed me , what is he doing again for me ? So they can question the value . So for that type of market segment of the marketplace I would say people doing less than like 20K a month , we like to sell them one thing high 10 , 15 grand , give them everything .

Okay , now , once the business starts doing half a million , a million dollars a year and beyond , they've already validated that they can make money . They've already validated their great ceo .

Those type of people we like to give them a little bit more attention , because they have what it takes to 5x 10x the business with the right process , with the right discipline , with the right systems and with the right team .

Now , since we know that they're already good and it takes just a little improvement to 10x the business , we want a piece of the growth and we want to also build them a service fee .

So that way we're not so much like the mistake is and you're seeing this with a creator space , right , people building school communities in exchange of a percentage but you're giving that time and service to someone , even though they have an audience . They have no infrastructure for actual business , they just create content .

So you're taking a lot of your service and giving it to someone who has no leverage when it comes to offer , when maybe even the audience isn't monetizable that well .

So a lot of people are building these cool communities for people with hundreds thousand followers , this and that , but they're only making 30k a month because because this guy had never thought of business , you're literally starting from scratch . It's like being a beginner .

So for us , we never want to give our service or our performance offers or management offers to businesses that are below our leverage threshold , which is you already know how to fulfill , you already know how to get attention , you already know how to sell .

Now let's just come in and kind of like build better processes and systems and actually just 10x the business and do more leverage shit . Right , yeah , man . So that's how I think about it .

or chasing an antelope , because a lion only needs to hit one antelope a fortnight to eat for two weeks , or chase field mice forever , and it's such a great way to position these these these opportunities , even to rev share , with right , because I was a partner on like 15 , 20 different offers , but my thesis , which was wrong , which was oh , we only need one

of them to win the olympics , to be fucking the bank right but it's it still wasn't the right frame , because it just meant that you were spanning across everyone . Now again , you learn the hard way , right by getting fucking by wasting your time , and that's a limiting belief right , and it's also a form of cope to say oh yeah , just fucking bet .

My approach was like bet on one horse and the horse will fucking eventually win , but different with different ways to slice and dice it . But I think this is just a whole different era of like playing on bigger levels .

Right it , it's not like a year ago , two years ago , cause , also , if you're growing , you don't realize that you're under leveraged , and that's why for us , on one side , I realized that like okay , I can't , I can't build people .

The same way , I also almost like it's like who you serve is how leveraged you are Right , like who are right , like who you pick to serve dictates how you grow and how much effort you have to put into growth .

So , like , even if you see , like a lot of these guys who are selling products , coaching offers and this and I'm making a lot of money they have to go hunt the next day 100 , right . So it's like , so they're actually , they're actually not that smart .

And I learned this the hard way because I , you know , we spent two years without having any partnership back-end service performance offer for the longest time , right , and now we kind of like have , you know , we incubate coins and then , once we give them the systems and processes , they implement and we , we help them with strategy , and once they get to a level

where they are actually killing it , which is not everyone , which is why I don't . That's why I'm trying to get away from making promises and being like , hey , these are all the systems and processes we use for our partners .

You can access them in the incubator , but I'm only going to pay you more attention once you actually make a shit ton of money with our consulting and our systems and processes . But before it was like every client is worth . No , you can't . You can't .

You can't pour all the energy into every client and think that you're going to make a lot of money or just sell like programs or just sell this , because people is like I want to be a partnership . Partnership is the best route or , oh no , consulting and just coaching and info is the best route . No , it's everything . It's just a spectrum .

You need to be at all these layers and you need to monetize . It's almost like one gets you in and another one brings you the next client right . So like products is the products have to be the funnel if you want a sustainable business and to be able to sleep at night .

Or else you're going to be the partnership model and you're going to lose 50 of all your clientele in one month because something went wrong . Or if you're the productized offer where you sell 50 people every month .

If ads break , if your closers drop , if ai comes out and does your coaching without needing for people to spend time in an efficient way and learning on school or information or consulting , your business goes from from 500k a month , a million a month , all the way down to not being needed and like good luck running businesses where this level of risk exists .

You know , for me , that's the thing that scares me into being married to a specific model like for me , I don't , I'll do everything , I'm not a , I'm not married to like oh , we're this , we're this , no you're adapting with times , man , and especially right now , when everything is a fucking vitamin , you need to find that painkiller right , which is like you've

been so good at being able to identify and and evolve right .

Like you really blew my mind , man , uh , and I I really do wish you the best and fucking what you do for next couple months , because it's just cool to see how you're evolving through this period over the past two , three years . And , yeah , man , I want to say a big thank you , appreciate you .