#234 William Brown - How To Build a $10M Business

One of my favorite questions to ask is why can't you just do this on your own ? And then people say , well , if I could do it on my own , it'd be done already . People don't really understand it yet . People don't really see how powerful it is and how it can seriously change people's lives in a way that college , university and school can't .

Since we last spoke , man , the amount of help you've given me has been incredible and like I don't think you realize that sometimes , though , you know it's just like for you it's quite . These things just pop up and it's just oh , here , do this , do that . But like you've transformed my business in the past four or five months .

You've grown it a lot , indirectly and directly , pointing me in so much directions and , um , yeah , I just want to say a big thank you for that . And even with the new book today , like there's been so many changes already . So it's been wild . Man , how's the past couple , six weeks , six months , been

for you ?

Right , and I've always collected books and just loved , like , the art of making them , the cover design and all this cool stuff . So I selfishly always wanted to make a book and I was just waiting for the right time when it was worth doing one . You know where I could really give away something substantial , when it was worth doing one .

You know where I could really give away something substantial . And then , after , you know , building and then selling the last company , it just felt like I've got enough to share . Now that's actually going to help people . You know , and that's why I literally give everything away in it was because when I sold the last company , I was like done .

You know , I didn't want to specifically chase more money , I didn't want to build another big business , at least not for a while . So I just thought , well , it doesn't matter , now I can give it all away . It really doesn't matter , because I've already got everything that I need .

So if it helps me , then great , and if not , well , you know , I've just fulfilled that kind of goal . Yeah , and obviously the whole thing with youtube happened when the bloody channel blew up and then I had to hire reps and and , and then it became more of a proper business in in january .

But yeah , the book was just just a , just a labor of love , and now it's a great asset to have I think , like , the level of detail you go into the book is unknown .

seem obvious , but it's like , if that's across your VSL , your landing page , your sales page , you're running your sales calls objections .

It's literally holding nothing back , and I think that's what puts you in a category of one , and that's the reason why the youtube blew up and the book is going to do well , and the businesses have done well , and even the trading company , man , because the way you look at it is like , oh yeah , we just kind of fell forward and it was one thing , another

thing , another thing , but it's not , though , and the way you even explain how the trading company was built and your perspective on like was a mechanical trading , however it was fucking described .

It's it's like I've seen that the compounding effect for you , which is really cool because you got into this quite late compared to most people who like try to get into this . You know super young 21 , 22 , so that's kind of been interesting . But yeah , man , okay I want to get into the detail . Taught me , true , a bleeding neck problem a bleeding

neck problem .

You know , like dude , oh man , imagine if someone could invent like a pill for any anxiety and it just instantly gets rid of anxiety . My God , man , you could charge so much money for that and it would be so easy to bloody sell if people believe that it worked , which is a whole other problem . It's positioning , though , too right .

Yeah , it's just solving a big problem , man . The bigger , the hairier the problem , the easier the whole business is , and you can still make other businesses work .

But yeah , and that's what trading was , because the people that really want and need it to work , they want and need a solution very badly , and if you can position it in the right way , then they're just , they're just in , you know true true , I think it's how you position it to though to them , like you give them that solution right , because , yeah , yes ,

yes , it's a problem .

Yeah , such such an awesome dude and we had a massive conversation around vitamins or painkillers and the concept of , like , transitioning from a vitamin to a painkiller and at the end of the day , like the way we settled on it , it was like a debate .

He just said you go after the bigger problem , you go after the pain problem when you create a painkiller , but at the end of the day , like you can almost spin the vitamin to be a painkiller if you can get into the core , which is like health , wealth , relationships , increased revenue , save time .

So it's just an interesting way to do it , because there's a lot of guys selling trading products , but they're just positioned the wrong way . But you were able to break through .

So example number one when I started the trading education company , everyone was talking about technical analysis and analyzing the charts and finding the patterns and stuff . So I just went well , you don't need to do that , you can just literally follow a set of rules . And no one else was saying or doing that . So it cut through the market .

Everyone was like what on earth is that ? Like what is it ? I've never heard of it , how does it work ? So you had intrigue . You had a new mechanism as well and just saying , dude , I remember everyone that found out about that was like what is it ? I about that was like what is it ? I've never heard of it . Like how does it work ?

So you've got people from the minute that you say it before anything , which is really cool . So that's one thing . And then , with the YouTube channel , everyone was doing these mad edited videos , real edited graphic design , thumbnails , all these fancy titles and shit and I was like fuck that , I'm just gonna do the exact opposite .

You know fancy title , text message title Fucking $1,000 . Graphic design thumbnail . It took a week . No thumbnail Planned out , scripted out . You know , no plan , no script .

The counter trend Just do the opposite , man , and then you cut through the market immediately when you can do it you can't always do it , but but when you can do the exact opposite and get away with it .

But the fact I think that , like you knew that people were doing the super edited videos and you knew that people were shilling , like technical analysis allowed you to come over the top , like you've that awareness , does that make sense ?

It ? was almost like you had that approach because , like , did you have much resistance ? Negatively , because I guess that's what people fear of right , they have an idea , business idea , starting an agency helping people do x , y and z , and then they they hear the first bit of resistance and they shit their pants like dude .

I remember when I started my company , I was in singapore and I was sending outreach to podcasters in singapore and I was telling them that I would save them time by managing their podcast and I got back this huge hate mail from a guy , of a guy being like people don't want people to manage their podcast , they want to help them grow their podcast .

And I remember I like shot myself at the time it was a 2022 and then , uh , my partner said like there's , there's a hint of truth and everything . And I took that advice and I went with it . Does that make sense ? So for a lot of guys they don't know when to disseminate between counter trend or am I just fucking this up ?

That's that's what you've got to do , whether it's with business , with I mean , look with paid ads , right ? I always describe paid ads as throwing darts at a dartboard , right ? So whenever I start with ads , I'll make 10 or 15 or 20 , run them all , and then two or three or four will work .

Then you just put the other 16 in the bin and you're good to go right . So , just make a mess , get it all out there , see what works , and then kind of work backwards and iterate , and that's what you do with everything . That's what you do with your copy . That's what you do with your copy , with your ads , with your offer .

You know , this is why sales calls are so beneficial , because you can just test shit and speak to the people and then if you get someone that's like no , I don't want to buy this , you can say , well , why . You know what could I put in there or what could I do that would make you want to buy it . Just go and speak to the market and just test shit .

Youtube is a good testing ground as well , like what . One thing that I've found is for me there's like two types of videos I grow the channel video and book sales call video . But it's hard to do both , you know . So certain videos will get a lot of views but less sales calls , and some will get not many views but a load of sales calls .

You know which , but you only learn this from from doing it . What's the difference in the videos ? Well , the grow the channel videos are more stories and you and just more kind of .

You know , like how I became a millionaire or um or or how I sold my business or stuff like that , whereas the ones that book sales calls are more like right , here's a walkthrough of my funnel and how it works , or just more more tactical stuff , but made in a wow , not how way explain that actually before

you do that .

So for most people , uh and I fall into this category , which has probably shot me in the foot from a revenue perspective , for sure is like the overshare share everything and then people will pay for implementation or whatever that's . That's a common knowledge , but your approach is different I don't agree with that .

It's not good advice , man , because here's the thing right , if you , let's say , we do a YouTube video and we really give quite a lot away , right , well , someone is going to watch that and they're going to go and try and do it on their own , but there's so much context they don't have , there's so much they don't know about it , because you can't share

everything in one video . They've also got no coaching , they can't ask questions . A lot of those people will take what's there , try it and fail and be like that guy he doesn't know what he's talking about .

Because that didn't work for me , but it doesn't work for you , because that's one little thing there you don't know this , this , this , this , you haven't been able to ask me questions . It's out of context . So if you give bits and bobs away , even if it is real , the tangible stuff , a lot of people are going to fail and they're going to blame you .

It's not done right . So really it's a disservice . This is why training programs exist . This is why coaching programs exist , because that's where you get it all and you do it properly , you know . That's why they exist , because I mean , I guess you could put a training program on YouTube , right , you can do that . But even then there's more to it , man .

Of course , this is why people buy programs . This is why people um buy the book and everything is in that book , but they still come for the coaching because there's more to it , man well , at the end of the day , people want the accountability right , people need the accountability .

You know that element of accountability , so it's that extra layer that you pay above yeah I think I guess , like the and this is a really good conversation with people , so I think I asked this to jack hopkins , I know you've worked with jack is like , sometimes , what offers is an offer misleading ?

And his , his point sometimes was like , well , you have to be a dumbass to look at an offer and think it's going to happen without any effort and sacrifice .

You have to realize that an offer comes with effort and sacrifice and if we extrapolate that to content , it's like you need to even think about that more and more because , like this content is out of context . So therefore you can't assume it's the fucking blueprint . You know , yeah , they can help people , but it won't give them .

So that's kind of one element .

You know , people know what to do , but they need someone who's actually been there and done it at a very high level to just fact check them and hold their hand and steer them in the right direction , to give them almost like just belief in themselves you know someone else said to me , on on our group call yesterday , he said to me look , will , I kind of

knew I had to raise my price , but I didn't dare . But when you told me , I was like fine , I , you know I will because you know and I don't know . So I know what to do . But there's something else there . It's . It's not the knowing , it's the I'm not describing this very well .

You were , you were almost permission from someone who really knows what they're doing , because you kind of don't really know what you're doing yet . Yeah , so you doubt yourself a bit you know what

I mean .

Imagine we met in a coffee shop and you were like , oh well , what do you do ?

And I'd basically say , well , I help people sell information , right , and if they have like a talent to teach that to other people , if they have like specialist knowledge on dating or how to approach girls or stop drinking alcohol , right , I help them monetize that and sell it through like an online course or a coaching program or something like that .

So you know what I do , but you have no idea how right . Or you might say to me well , like , how do they do that , though ? And I'd say , well , basically , there's four pillars , there's like traffic , so eyeballs , and they get people to know about them and what they do .

Number one and then they send that into like a sales process where they add a bit of value and explain how it works , and then they get them on , usually a sales call , and then we'll see if they're a good fit and if they are , they'll tell them about the program and close them into the program , right ?

So again , now you kind of know what to do , get traffic somehow , put them in a sales process , get them on a call and close them . But you still don't know how to build a funnel or what funnel . Right , you have no idea about a sales script or handling objections or framing or anything . On and on and on .

So you know what it is , but you don't know how to do it . It's like wow , but not how . That's the way I describe it and that's how you should keep all your content . You know , I did a very tactical video recently about the last funnel and I showed the funnel , I showed all the steps , all the pages , all the numbers even for it .

But I didn't show you how to write the copy for an opt-in or the copy for a vsl , or give you the sales script or talk to you about pricing and deliverables . So even a tactical video so strategy

without the tactics ?

I guess some people try stuff it in but , like again , you need to have your own discernment when you're looking at content to think like , okay , this is super helpful , wills a , g , but I need to obviously invest to be able to figure out this on a proper level , you know .

So , for example , we we don't make short form because we don't want to work with short form people . We only make long form because we want , only want to work with long form people .

You know , we only use youtube because it will number one , it compounds on itself , whereas no other social media platform does , but also it's just like uh , you can indoctrinate people , so so much easier and so much faster , as well than Instagram reels and stuff like that .

So you've got to think long form , short form , the different platforms , and where and why . When it comes to your your thing .

Linkedin is working for the business , youtube's working for the podcast why do we need to open it up , you know , and instagram , using instagram as well . But does that make sense ? Like you don't need to go jumping at everything . It's almost like focusing on in , on your zone of genius . If you like long form and you enjoy doing it , yeah , perfectly fine .

There's nothing wrong with that . You made a good point about guys coming through and then paying for the accountability and whatnot . Something that I'm actually just struggling with I got a personal level is the difference between our done for you offer and done what you offer .

Is that the done what you offer is not meant to be super , super one-to-one all the time .

Right , there's meant to be more of a group , group element , but I find myself just my own personal attachment is that I actually want to be super close to every member at all time , which is obviously like , not scalable , but I'm still able to do it and it's still fine . But I guess for people like , what are they ?

How much touch points should you be having in a group coaching setting when you're trying to build like a group coaching program and build this up Because there's no rule book , right that's ?

Literally , you know , for that fucking price point . And um , yeah , I mean he couldn't run ads because the price is too low and he's struggling with traffic and stuff , as I do .

You're way over delivering , man , way , I mean , it's good for the customer , but the customers are ripping you off , Probably getting the wrong customers too , and getting the wrong customers massively as well . So just this is kind of . One thing that I've been thinking about recently is how much do I need to give people for them to succeed ?

You know , and the best customers , the people , I mean everybody's different . Some people do need more , some people do need less , some people are more self-sustaining , some , some aren't . So it's a bit of a balance , but yeah , I think , I think what we , what we do , is , is super dialed right now .

Man , what , what , what are , what are your programs and prices ?

So we started at 3k , one off , and it's a cohort , so it's eight . It's eight weeks , it runs in sprints and then we have course material , like six , seven hours of course material very , very detailed on growing , managing , scaling your podcast and monetizing , and then weekly live calls from there and then three , one to ones of myself .

But we're going to be doing a few master classes too , like getting in , you know , people like rob lipsid , all the kind of big kind of guys in the space , and we're going to increase it to 5k .

Take off the cohort , so leave it as an open-ended coaching program and then bring the coaching calls down to one a month , one to one , one to one keep the obviously the weekly ones , yeah , sure , but , um , yeah , so that's kind of where we're thinking of scaling up because it's growing right , similar to you .

It's just getting bigger and bigger and bigger every day and the systems are getting sharper and the delivery is getting good and so on and so forth . But my just kind of problem with that is like I'm still thinking in my head how much should you be in slack specifically solving problems ?

Because , learning from experience , you made a great point in your book , which is , you know , build a product that you want to build . I've been in a ton , ton of programs , man , very , very expensive programs You'd write a question in and no one would respond at all and then it would go like three , four days .

We just had a conversation this morning saying new SLA is every comment gets responded to within two hours . I was like let's just set a standard and if we don't know , east Coast will say , darren , we'll get back to you when he's awake in four hours time or whatever . So but again , we're making this up right .

So I always think that there is no such thing as an adult . No one really knows what they're doing . You just learn along the way and dial it in for you . But if there's ever a concept that I really believe in , it's like make what you would want yeah for sure . You know that's what I do . I just price it as I would want , make it as I would want .

I think that works well and I think recurring high ticket is the one . Like this is one big thing that I've learned . I don't think really people have caught onto yet . Like recurring allows your best clients to stay much longer .

So if you're selling like a you know 3k program for , let's say , three months or whatever , then it's just there's an end to it , there's no , you're not really building it to continue .

And you know , when people stay longer , you can not only get a massive LTV for yourself to grow your business further , but you're just letting them give you more money if they want to , which has been a massive thing for us , man .

And there's so much peace of mind when you go into a month and you know you've got , like , whatever it is , 230K due in before you've got new customers and yet some of it's going to churn , of course , but it calms you down . You sleep easier at night , man . Yeah , you sleep easier .

It wasn't 400k a month , but it was 40 , 50 and I'd wake up in first of january or first of february and I wouldn't have any . I wouldn't have any issues paying payroll , put it that way . Um , but then I have the other curse , which is you get less people through the door .

Like there's always an ebb and flow , right , and that's why it's like is it agency , is it info , is it sass ? There's an ebb and there's a strong . There's a negative and positive to everything .

But what I love about the book and about what you guys are doing was that you get them in eight and a half K and then you have the backend software or maybe coaching or so on and so forth that can add the LTV . That's what most people aren't doing . They're selling the one thing . They burn the lead , they burn the customer and they move on .

Then the next is when you've , when you've ticked the money box there's . There was this question that I once asked myself .

So I went downstairs in the building in Dubai that I live in with my journal and I asked myself this question if I had $10 million in cash in the bank right now and I could just do whatever I wanted keep the business , turn it off , work or not work , travel not travel I could do fucking anything . What would I want to do with my days ?

You know , when the sitting on the beach wears off and the being bored wears off , what are you going to bloody do , man ? You know , and my answer was my the thing that I wanted to do was just talk about business . That was basically the answer that I wrote . Just , just just do and talk about business , cause this is like my favorite thing in the world .

And that's an important question for people to think about man , because that's usually what you should be doing . You that's an important question for people to think about , man , because that's usually what you should be doing .

You know you can't always go and do that straight away , cause you don't have that bloody money , unfortunately , but that's what you should be doing . So that just helps you realize where you should be going . Yeah , if that makes sense .

yeah , man , there's a few points I want to pull out that , um , I really , I really really hit me hard . So I want to go into the sales process . So I think what's interesting about sales is that you know whether you identify that you're shit at sales . You think you're okay .

Sometimes , pinpointing why you're not good at something is difficult unless you're recording them and having maybe someone watch your sales videos , which I'm actually only doing recently . And something that I really liked was you mentioned around why now ?

So getting people to understand why now to act , and if I was to ever look back on my sales process and think why we're not closing , would probably be that element Not necessarily urgency , but just relevancy to act now . What do you think about that ?

One of my favorite things is when you remove an objection and then it's just they don't , they can't not buy yeah like when you've removed all objections . They can't not buy because you've you've made them realize in their head . You know why do you want to do this now though ? Well , dude , if I don't do it now , then when am I going to do it ?

You know , I've waited all this time to do it , and and I and I still haven't done it . Why haven't you done it yet ? Well , I just couldn't find the right program . Do you think this is the right program ? Oh , a hundred percent , I really believe right . So what you're saying is now is the time . Yeah , yeah , this is the perfect program for you .

Yeah , yeah , yeah . And like you said earlier , you've got more than enough capital to afford it . Right as well . Yeah , yeah , sounds good . So now they can't say they can't afford it , they can't say they need to fucking think about it , you know . So the only option is to close it's funny , man , I think .

It was a michael glover , robert glover , recently , and he wrote about um , no more , no more , mr nice guy , his name of his book , and he said a big issue people have , especially guys , around rejection , whether it's sales or women is they don't want to be faced with the rejection .

So let's say , you have a connection , we talk , well , and then I say , oh , do you want to buy my sir , do you want to talk about my service ? And instead of facing the rejection , we'd almost just say no and just cop out . Same with a girl . Right , you talk to a girl , she gives you all the signals .

You don't ask for the number , though , and guys are more willing to to accept the feed versus get rejected , and that could be a micro example of how it extrapolates up into men selling , right do ? Do you want to launch a podcast for your business , but you don't know where to start .

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You can't fake that , you can't buy that , you can't train , that you know . So if you need those things , you're in a much worse position , like if you are like a broke closer and you're trying to make money . You need the sales and you really want the sales .

You know , and you may also be selling an offer that you don't fully believe in , but you're just there to make money and get paid and some people in that in that season . I respect that season , man , because we've all got to pay our rent and eat food and pay for the car loan and blah , blah , blah . So I fully respect that situation .

But , good God , is it going to be much harder , man , because you're not doing it with integrity and it comes across .

And we got to the close and I just found a time and he was like , oh yeah , just let me get my card or some shit . I was like , dude , you do that , I'm going to nip to the bathroom , you know .

So I honestly went to the bathroom and I think I learned so much from that because when I came back , the guy literally said to me did you do that on purpose ? Because I was a bit scared about buying , but seeing as you're out of the room , I could clear , I could think much clearer . And now I understand that I should buy . Did you do that on purpose ?

I was like , no , I really didn't do that on purpose , you know . So then I learned and then I tried it again , like not on purpose . And it's just a little hack , man that works so well , just to give people space to think .

Oh , that's , I love that man just being like why is it like this , right ? Yeah , oh , what made you think about that ?

And then again , I learned from it , because then when I came back , he had literally had time to think about it . It was still there and then he just couldn't object and then he bought and I thought , wow , that worked . Well , I'm going to do that again .

So all this shit just happens to me and then , if it works , I'm like , wow , I've just learned something there . And then I do it and it really works . So that's that .

And then the curiosity thing is just a good , calm way of getting everything that you need out of people for you and for them , because sales calls , in my opinion , are just helping them make the best decision for them .

And people are not good at making decisions , because if they were , they'd be , they'd be very successful , you know , because success is just good decisions in in order over time , you know . So if you are not good at making decisions , you're going to make bad decisions .

You're going to make bad decisions and you're going to fuck up your life , basically , and wonder what happened . So it's our job to help them make good decisions when it's appropriate for them .

And again , like I was saying a second ago , if you are attracting the right prospects to your offer and you know the right problems that you can and can't solve , then it's your duty to fully understand the person and help them just understand and and see the value .

And if you can really help them , you've got to really tell them and and convey it , and doing that in the right way will will raise your close rate dramatically , man . And that that curiosity , just sit with it , don't rush through it . You know , if someone gives you a shit answer , don't move forward .

Just just chill and just go a little bit deeper with them and just stroke your chin and just think you know , sometimes I like to just go quiet and then you know , just let people carry on talking and get you know , and then they tell themselves , because when people are talking , they tell themselves you know .

And then they tell themselves , because when people are talking , they tell themselves you know . So if you say why now ? You know why not six months ago ? Why not wait and do this in six months ? Why now Shut up and just let them think , let them talk , and if they give you a bad answer , just be like and just wait , and then they'll tell you more .

um , just subtle social cues . And I remember I remember the first big client I ever closed . I remember distinctly because I fucked it up several times afterwards , which is funny um , hop on a call , ask them where they're , their podcast and everything .

And they went for like 28 minutes and because my internet was kind of shaky , they just kept on going and they were like this is the problem , this is the problem , this is how we want to fix it , this is what we want to do , this is where we are .

And they're like , yeah , so at the end , like I basically like this is basically what you're doing , right , this is exactly what we're doing . And I was like absolutely , and they'd spoke for 28 minutes of the 30 minutes .

At the very end it was just like , okay , and it was the fact that they had opened the loops , closed the loops , opened the loops , created the questions and so on and so forth , because there was two of them . There was um , a manager and like a director .

They were just discussing between each other to some degree and I was just the person that solved the problem in the end . And , uh , that was over a year ago , same client as what I said today .

That's why we're on this call . You know it's a stupid question , but it's very powerful because they will sell themselves , you know . So they will say , well , dude , if I could do it on my own , it will be done . That's why I'm on this call . Oh yeah , that makes sense . So you're here because , yeah , I mean you can't do this on your own .

I mean , what else have you tried ? Oh well , I've tried this and I've tried this and I've tried that . Got it , man . So basically , I mean , it sounds like you really are stumped and you , I mean , it sounds like you really need help with this , right ? Well , yeah , obviously Right .

So now they'll tell themselves I'm here to buy , basically because I'm here to buy , basically , cause otherwise , what the fuck am I doing here ? So it sounds simple and almost stupid , but , good God , is that a powerful question , man ?

These other elements , but it's interesting to observe this last thing I want to ask you about on this on the sales side , which was very new to me , was a temperature check .

But if you say to them you know what , what is what , what is in the book , in the , in the script I can't remember word for word by this stage , but basically cool . So with everything that we've covered , you know , one thing that's really important to us is alignment .

You know , before we go any further , I just want to pause here and check that we are in alignment . So , scale of one to ten where , where are you at ? You know , zero , look , thanks for the call , but this is just not for me . Ten , dude , this sounds amazing , it sounds perfect . It's exactly what I need . I'm all in , let's go .

Where are you on the scale ? And they basically tell you how ready they are to buy Nine or 10 , they are ready to pay man . 10 , they are ready to pay immediately . Five , don't go anywhere near the close . And the price , man , for God's sakes , because they're just going to object and leave . So it's your last chance to say , okay , five out of 10, .

Well , I really appreciate you sharing that .

I know you mentioned a book that like obviously the follow-up and so on , so forth , but are you going back to your crm or would you determine some of them as dead after a while ?

Because sometimes I feel like I'm investing time into leads that are effectively dead but they're in the crm , so you just keep batting , keep batting them down on crm , and I do have a lot of people who bought in 2023 that came in 2022 and 2024 who came in 2023 . Now , that does happen , but I do think that there has to be a trade-off sometimes , right

yeah , definitely .

You know , and people , when I used to take sales calls for this offer right , because I've still got the tracking sheet and my close rate on that tracking sheet there's about 140 , 50 calls on there and my close rate on that tracking sheet there's about 140 , 50 calls on there and , right as of now , I'd closed about 61% of them .

Right , but the only reason that's that figure is because , honestly , about 12 , 13 , 14% of that is follow-ups coming in over time , right ?

So at the time , the close rate might've been whatever , like 45% , 50% , whatever , but it's really surprised me how many people have slowly come back and bought , but with no follow-up , right , because they're seeing the youtube videos and it's literally just the youtube videos and a bit of my instagram . So that is the follow-up . The content is the follow-up .

Well , that's certainly been the case for me . Are you familiar ?

And you're like , oh , it's eight and a half k and whatever , and he goes .

Instead of you following up , you just get back to what you were doing , putting out the fucking content , because that's , as you mentioned , that's the follow-up and then , every single day , he's seeing this guy hammering the feed same messaging , same positioning , getting better , growing , seeing all the wins and improvements and then the guy comes back down like four

weeks later and buys because , you know , maybe in that instance he just wasn't ready or he was trying to figure things out or wait until he gets paid or whatever , which is why he DM'd you . So , instead of putting the time into that , put the time into the content . That was what drove people in the first place .

If their men are by , they'll buy , given given time , you know , and this is I think we touched on this a little bit earlier , I think when we were chatting outside , but we might might have been earlier , but I think sales calls people , but I think sales calls people are getting wise to sales calls now .

They kind of know what it is and how it works . So I think selling through a document in the DM is becoming more of a thing . It doesn't allow you to scale as far , that's a fact , but depending on the business that you're trying to build , that gets you good quality customers though , because they buy of their own free will .

So they're 100 self-sold basically . So you get almost no . No refunds , no chargebacks , no bad customers , no bad fits . Everyone's a joy to work with . You know , when it's they've come in a hundred percent of their own decision , that's , that's , that's what I see . But equally , there's a lot of people that you decision . That's , that's , that's what I see .

But equally , there's a lot of people that you do leave on closed . That virus sales call could have been closed . But it's kind of what do you want ? Do you want to scale far or do you just want to chill them like James Kemp style ? Yeah , you know .

So I think the reason I'm saying this is because I think that gives us a lot of merit to scale . Do you get me ? There's a lot of good metrics there to be able to scale . Um , and , to be honest , a lot of this was very , uh , it was curiosity driven .

Actually , what happened was I got dengue , dengue fever , it's like malaria and I was lying in bed like this for a week straight , like dengue is fucked up , man , and I couldn't even think . And then I was messaging puce and I was like I think it's time to build a coaching program .

It's only like a month ago and I'm lying in my office on the bed bear in mind is a bed and I have the white and I'm just writing on the whiteboard like maybe we'll do this .

So I followed your approach , which was we built , we sold it with nothing built and then we backfilled everything because it's all in the head , but it was 50 sales calls . What are you struggling with ? I'm struggling with this . Okay , we can do that . We're struggling with this , we can . And then we just built it out in here about a week or two ago .

So sick man , but I think it's just interesting because , like that . But to be honest , have you ever read the Lean Startup by Eric Reuss ? I actually haven't .

You go speak to people , you walk around the town and then you build what they say or you change what they say and you just build a solution .

And the and this book started in the early 2000s and it was because all the san francisco startups would be these nerds and mit thinking I'm going to build this supercomputer , would spend fucking 200 million building a computer that no one would ever use .

So all these Silicon Valley startups were failing and this guy just said stopping , such a fucking nerd , go outside and speak to people about the problems that you have and then build a solution and , as a result , that started a whole new wave of startups early 2000s .

Yeah , exactly , I'd make the tracks then be like , please , like them , you know , please , please , play them , and just shove them in people's faces and hope for the best . But that's the right way to do it , that you've just said , where you go out in business , at least , and say , look , what is the problem ?

You have the sales calls and just serve , survey people and ask them what's their problem , what they pay to solve , blah , blah , blah . And then you just get the problem , then build the solution and just fucking give it to them .

And this happened with the , the trading education company , because I had no want or desire or anything to build that education company . I was just trading and I had a twitter and someone asked me one day can you please coach me ? I was like , dude , no problem , fifty dollars come to my house . And then he made a word document himself of his notes .

I kept that and sold it to a few of the followers or tried to sell it , and it did sell . So he made my product he was my product market fit , he did all the work for me and then I just took what worked for him and did it with other people , and that worked . Then they started saying , oh well , can we put images in there , can we ?

What's this about ? What broker do we use ?

And they just told me to how to make the product and then , as they told me , I raised the price and then eventually it went from a word document to like a more of an ebook thing and then a dropbox folder of videos , and I just kept listening to the feedback , making it better and better and better and better , raising the price .

Then I learned the rest , and the rest is history , man . So that's , that's how it's done yeah , I love it , man .

I need to overcome that and I think , like I've focused so much on content , a lot of guys will focus on content because they're coming from the hermosy style stuff . We just blast loads of content when they're transitioning over to ads . When would you make that transition ? When would you make that transition or would you ever go ?

Now that you've done both , how do you think about the paid versus organic route ?

Jesus Christ , well , they're about 270 , 80 , 90 a month cash collected about a 91% profit margin . Youtube and sales calls . That's it Me , two sales reps , one virtual assistant . Youtube sales calls they buy one of the programs . That's all we were doing . Now we've got the book , though . Right , I've done a book funnel , so I paid .

Do you know who Alan Sultanich is ? Yeah , I know the name Very famous copywriter . I paid him and his team to help me with my book funnel .

Anyway , so we're running Facebook and Instagram ads to a long form sales page selling the $12.95 ebook , with a $47 little bump for like a one hour training essentially behind the scenes training , and with those ads , depending on the week , we're just above or just below break even , and then all the sales calls are completely free .

I get you Because we've paid for the customers and then we get the customers to book sales calls for the coaching and , as of now , that's 12.1x cash at the moment . So for every dollar we spend on ads , we make about $12 back . How ? do you calculate that Like . So the way we we calculate it is let's say , we spend . Simplest way to describe it .

Let's say we spend a hundred dollars on ads , we make about a hundred dollars back from the book , Right . And let's say we bought 10 customers . Well , they're free . They're free customers , right . If one of them then buys a product for $1,200 , we've spent $100 , someone buys something for $1,200 , well , we're 12x , you know , 12x ROI .

You know it's a mixture of that stuff in there , but basically my point is ads are the only reason we made the money in the last company , so it was 95 paid ads , right , and basically ads fucking work . So just fucking run them all right , because basically they just fucking

work .

Like , where do you look for ads ? Like , what are you trying to do ? Are you trying to make sure you're doing on facebook , instagram ? Is it going to be different ? We talked about platform agnostic , right ? How different platforms are ? Do they show up differently ? Or you know , are these things that you were considering ? Or you're just like no , fuck it .

This is the system , this is the process . I've seen it all from the book as well .

If you've got a talent or a skill or specialist knowledge , you should be selling info . And if you don't know how money you can make selling info , if you've got a talent or a skill or specialist knowledge , you should be selling info . And if you don't know how , you should buy this book . Basically , click this ad and go and learn about the book .

That's basically what the ads are in different ways of saying that that's it . And then people see that and they're like oh yeah , I didn't know that . Oh wow , this sounds awesome . Click and oh yeah , I didn't know that . Oh wow , this sounds awesome . Click and then they're on the sales page and the sales page is is a you , it's a fucking beast .

You've got to see this bloody sales page , but it's a fucking huge sales page with everything you would ever need to know testimonials , proof , the problems , the solutions , the pains , the reasons to buy it , blah , blah , blah , blah , massive sales page and then the whole idea is they read that and it either it basically makes them want to buy Right , and then

they buy , and then they can buy the 47 upsell if they want it About 52% of people buy that Currently anyway and then we just so happen at the moment to again just above or below break even on that front end and we're buying loads of this . You think we're buying , we're getting buyer leads right .

So they are the best leads you can possibly get , because they've bought from us once or twice already and hopefully they love the book and they love the the rest of it , so they have a good experience . Then they like us and trust us .

We see , they see that we're the real deal and then we just basically do everything in our power to get them on a sales call to buy the coaching if it's appropriate and if the time is right and if it's a good fit . So that's it .

enterprises , so it's harder to get to the champion , whereas for what we're doing in the coaching side of business , it's not complicated like it is very straightforward . It's do you have a podcast of struggling ? Is it struggling ? Is it does it make no money ? Is it slowing down ? Is it not helping your business ?

Here's a solution , here's what we can do , and then a lot of those guys will ascend .

Like you know , it wasn't really the intention , but a lot of people already want to ascend into the done for you offer which is there , which is kind of why I was , why I'm really happy what we're building right now , because it seems like before it was like you had to be such a high criteria .

It was like a million dollar plus company and had to have the budget you told me yeah you know , and it was just . It was just so complicated and there's still there's a lot of people like that in the world , but it's just so hard to get to them right because it's just like it was .

It was just even I'm fucking finding it hard to get to them , whereas the other one it's like an and if step statement , it's just everybody else . So I think this can be helpful for people in their businesses , because , you know , I've over complicated it . I'm trying to simplify a lot of this stuff right now and I'm kind of working through that process .

But if you were selling more , like that offer , that's , that's easy for ads , because the problem is so obvious . You know , do you have a podcast that is struggling or it's not doing what you want it to do , or whatever ? Well , we've got the solution . Man , click the ad and I'll tell you about it on the next page , you know .

And then they land on the vsl and then it's like right , you know , this is probably your problem . If it is , this is our solution . You know , this is what we've done in the past . This is our reputation . Blah , blah , blah . Booking a call and let's just discuss to see if it'd be a good fit . Get them on a call , get them closed if it's a good fit .

I'm naturally good at it and it's definitely a blessing and a curse Because I find it so hard to maintain , but I know that it works . This is a problem . I can book a bunch of calls from it . I know it works . But it's just something that I think has almost given me like golden handcuffs Because , like you know , it works .

I don't know there's there's two different ways to do it . And then it's funny , when I had sales reps as well , they're like jesus christ , this is complicated just because , like you know , it's a curse of granted knowledge . What you know and you're very good at explaining things , I know for sure .

But I suppose if you were to do something for someone , you'd be like oh , it's like this and this and this . Again , it's all the tangents right , um , I don't know . I just kind of . I guess I enjoyed to some degree .

So what I'm trying to say is that I'm definitely opening up my time now to be able to put more time into these other levers to pull and I have the cash as well . You know , when I was fucking starting out I was kind of like you know . But now yeah if , if , of course , this is like scalable , which I think it is , it's the main thing this .

You know , if you can approach ads with like , let's just spend a couple of grand and see what happens by the data , let's see where the numbers are , you know , and then , when you know the numbers , maybe there's a little bottleneck . So okay , well , let's spend another one or two grand and try and fix the bottleneck .

You've got to approach it with that kind of thing , like it's an investment . Yeah , investments go down sometimes , don't always work out straight away , but Sabri Subi probably said this to you but I truly believe like ads is the number one highest ROIi thing that you could possibly do on earth .

You know , no other investment vehicle can get you , you know , 1000 percent roi per month cash , predictably , like a system . It's fucking crazy , man , like people I I seriously don't think people know how profitable ads can be I think one of your , your one of advantages too , is , uh , your tracking right .

Because for a lot of companies , even our company to some degree , we could get the numbers , but it would definitely involve more work to take half them . Super fucking crystal .

So then we know which calls came from the facebook ads and then I just get my va we just got a spreadsheet with a list of all the facebook calls and then we know which calls came from the Facebook ads and then I just get my VA we just got a spreadsheet with a list of all the Facebook calls and then we write , you know , was it attended or no show or

canceled or rescheduled , and then , if they bought , you know , then we just got a list of the taken calls and all that stuff . It's quite simple . You know , it's our . What we're doing now is really quite simple .

Actually , the front end is a bit more heavy to track because we got to track bloody , the book sales and the upsell sales and the , the bloody clicks , and it's that's a bit more complicated than the . The call tracking Interesting . I like it . I like , I feel like a .

This sounds so gay , but I feel like it's like a little game , it's like a scientific little game and when you win you make fuck tons of money . So it's a really fun . I just love it , man . I just love all the numbers and seeing what affects it and how you can make more from it , and it's just , it's sick .

Um , I remember I was doing like a lot of it manually and I was thinking like , oh , like there must be easier way just to automate it , but it actually wasn't . Um , you could actually do it , though , true , calendly you probably could , as in , you could pull the values .

Uh , you talk about the um , uh , survey mathematics yeah , yeah , so again yeah , so , funny enough , I actually was taught that as well from just from a different , a way simpler example , which was just a race . The scores one to four .

One to four , one to four one to four so basically uncannily having a bunch of questions , but I just think it's interesting because not a lot of people do that . I think you taught me about about that initially , but most people don't do that at all and then , therefore , they get a bunch of shit leads .

So the reason I'm saying this is because I used to pack that up with questions on my calendar , not book calls , and then I started to take out some of the most more aggressive questions and then it balanced back out , which was nice the biggest one I had . This is actually interesting observation . Balance back out , which was nice the biggest one I had .

This is actually interesting observation . So for most marketing agencies , they'll have at the bottom , like can you pay the five thousand a month retainer if you're a good fit ? I had that . I took that off and bookings tripled . Yeah , yeah , swear to god , it was that . It was that , but but I'd seen that so often .

Yeah , that that was the reason why I was like , oh fuck , I'll include it . And then , I swear to God , our booking rate went down loads as a result . Are you an entrepreneur who wants to build your influence and authority online ? You may have tried some of the hacks and tricks , but none of it has worked . And it makes sense .

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At first you just want to book calls man like is an important thing through a funnel . At first you just want to book calls man . Like we were saying earlier , just take any call , learn from the people and just slowly add the friction in , depending on who you're getting . You know .

You know it's just because you're learning from true experts . Well , not , it's just because you're learning from true experts . Well , not always , but but in many cases you're learning from true experts directly .

You know , and it's just awesome , man , yeah , I think , uh , this is a emerging industry that will will only get bigger and better over time , and I think we're starting to see the bad players get pushed out , as people know what funnels are , they know what sales calls are .

You're giving them the opportunity and the information to learn more . But there's some other things like a podcast , like taking photos of birds , uh , like I don't even know knitting . Maybe that is much more value based . How do you think about the pricing for things that are a bit more obscure ?

What would the value be of being surrounded by like-minded others who you can form friendships with and do your passion and your hobby with ? It is valuable . So that's kind of one part of the equation . And then the other is based on the avatar . How much can they even afford , though ? Like how , how much do they on average make ?

How much do they on average having savings ? And you kind of try and put the two together , you know .

So the pictures of birds guy , it's kind of easy because people generally that take pictures of birds they're older and they're quite wealthy , generally older and they're quite wealthy generally , um so , and they've got a lot of time on their hands and they really love it , so they've got money . There is value there .

Some of them want to do like the gallery shows and show their pictures off and stuff , so that kind of makes sense to be a 3k , 5k offer . You know it's not sky high , it's not cheap , but to the right person they will pay that . But you've got a price test as well , because no one really knows what's going to work until you take it to the market .

oh my god , okay , let's go down to the $19 , like the guy last time , whereas , like , if you're like , okay , there is a lot of value here . We just need to be able to extract that value to for the person to show them , we can charge the 4k and we can provide a 4k service .

It's an interesting observation , right , because it's kind of like goes back to the entrepreneur as well . You made a good point about pricing is usually an insecurity of the entrepreneur almost always , almost always .

So I always say to people , I say to people all the time it's like , look , I think it should be priced at about five . But because you're brand new , I say , just start at two and close a few people first , look after them , get them results , and they will .

You know , they'll come a point where you're getting great testimonials , people are very happy , and you'll start to feel , oh , this is too cheap , man , that's the time . So you've got to do it with integrity , you know . So whilst price is made up kind of is made up , it is , it is you've got to be in alignment with it or else you won't sell it .

Well , you've got like a weird karmic kind of debt where you don't believe it's worth that , so you're scared to sell it and that fear will come across , kind of thing .

Yeah , definitely Does that make sense Because it's kind of the same , but not the same Because you have money set aside . It's not like daily expenditure money .

It just wasn't right for them . It's too high , it wasn't a good fit . They didn't even need but they weren't even ready for the one-to-one and we were losing a lot , a lot of sales of people that we knew that we could help . So then we were like , right , well , what is high enough to stop anyone buying , but low enough .

You know , there's that sweet spot and that sweet spot right now for us is three thousand pounds a month , you know . So beginners buy it regularly , but only serious beginners , because it's per month yeah , to be honest , we've got people in there that are doing 40k a month , 70k a month cheap bastards . They should be in the one-to-one . Really .

Someone even said that on the group call yesterday . One guy he's just done his first ever six-figure cash month and he was like you know , I need to change program now and get in the one-to-one . It's an ascension model . Well , yeah , yeah , and we do see people do that like start up there and go down there , or start up there and go down there .

But you've got to just get it from yourself . What kind of customers do you want ? What can they afford ? Where's the line where it stops anyone coming in and you only get the serious people . So , and it depends what you want as well , because if you , if I , wanted to scale to the moon , I'd change my prices in what way ?

I'd probably I wouldn't do monthly for one I would do . You know , instead of 3k a month , I'd do like 8 000 for three or four months . Instead of 7K a month , I'd do like 8,000 for three or four months . Instead of 7K a month , I'd do like 20,000 , 25,000 for three or four months .

So I'd do more programs paid up front rather than recurring , because you'd make a hell of a lot more cash , a lot faster . Therefore , you could spend more on ads and you could scale further and buy more customers . So if I wanted to scale really far , that's what I would do .

So it kind of puts a lot of trust in your customers and your program's got to be good for them to stay and keep paying . But it's what do you want ? You know there's no one way to do it . There's no one way . There's no right answer . You know there's no one way to do it . There's no one way . There's no right answer .

You know , for me I just love coming into a month and having a big list of referrals , of renewals , you know , and I look at the names and I'm like , oh , she's definitely going to renew or this guy's crushing it , he's definitely going to renew . You know you've got money coming in and you don't have to chase new customers , you know .

And then you have to be better to your customers because you want them to renew and if they don't do well , you know they're not going to renew . So it's like a shared responsibility .

But that's interesting , so so that's reoccurring on like stripe .

So in our uh 9 000 us dollars uh program the middle one you know if , if they really do well , they'll stay for for months and months , and months and months and you make so much . You know you can make 9 , 18 , 27 , 36 , 45 , 54 . I think the longest anyone's ever stayed in that program is about six , six or seven months .

Because if they're joining the sales calls , today we're talking about funnels , but then next week we're talking about something different does that mean people come in at different discrepancies ?

I mean , there's people on the group call that are doing 210 a month , 70 a month , 40 a month , zero a month . But it's really good for the new guys , because we had a couple of new guys on yesterday's call and one of the first guys was like yeah , I've just had my first ever six figure month .

I joined at 20 , I'm now touching on 115 and it blew the fucking mind . And they can see it's real because those real guys are there on the call sharing the numbers and strategies and stuff . So if anything , it's better for the new guys because they're in the room with sick people and they can really see what they're doing that's a value to community too .

For what you're doing , because it's guys that are literally making cash and they're growing together . So , whether they're young and coming in the same at the same value too , right ?

And when I'm not , when one of those is out of alignment , I just feel like something is not right , something's wrong , I'm doing something wrong . And if I had a slack ?

Yeah , so , one of my friends who's an advisor to me , but I've actually helped him build a sales , uh , business , sales , coaching business he was the opposite to me , so we have very little calls with our clients , just whenever they need it yeah , um , he was the opposite 10 , 10 calls a day all week and he was like what the fuck is going on ?

And I was like , dude , we need to find like a hybrid here . But it was just interesting because he was like , oh , I don't mind the calls and I was like , dude , we need to find like a hybrid here .

But it was just interesting because he was like , oh , I don't mind the calls and I was like , if I didn't need to take them , I wouldn't take them , because the US time zones are like 5am , 6am some mornings , and that's every week , every day , you know . So I just think it .

And strategizing , finding problems and so on and so forth , that could be someone else's hell , yeah , you know . So that's why it's nice that you've built a business , or that you build a business that's in alignment with the world you want to see .

I think I'm sure he said that no calls , it might be one group call , and he was like , yeah , I don't like one-to-ones so I don't do them . You know , I like Slack . And I was like , dude , I hate Slack , but I like the one-to-ones though to ones though .

So you just do what you want to do , you know , and then you stay happy and because you're happy , you do better work , and because you do better work , you make more money . And it is a nice flywheel when you design it in that way . You know . Very important , because I wasn't happy in the last business . What do you think that was ?

Well , I had a massive team and I just hated the meetings , hated the calls . It was overwhelming and I wasn't trading anymore at the end of the company . So I felt out of alignment and out of integrity with the customers and the product as well , which grinded on me more and more as time went on because you were basically not doing what you were selling .

So , whatever , it was terrible and it just just not the one man didn't , didn't like the team , didn't like the customers , didn't like the , the niche , and when I didn't need the money , I was like I'm out yeah , you know , that's the thing right , I'm out fucking hell . I I only stayed in that company for the money .

That was like my season of basically that company was the make will rich company . Basically it was not . It didn't have .

We did have a culture , uh , and we did have values towards the end when we were making it more of a proper company , but it was just a bootstrapped cash flow monster you know , and afterwards , when you sold it to the private equity firm , like what was the reaction within the team when you said , okay , we're going to sell ? They were .

Well , most of them knew because they had to know through due diligence , because through due diligence they were being interviewed and customers were being interviewed and everyone knew that we were selling . And that was my favorite part of the business was the friendship with the team , because they were basically all friends and we'd have team holidays .

We all knew each other very , very well . The sales team manager was my childhood best friend , so that helped . That really helped , man . You know , like we , we only ever had one team member quit and every other person we ever hired never left , which is quite um , which is quite a cool thing to be able to say .

So we were a good , good team , but I just it was too many to manage and it was just a nightmare man . Everyone in slack , everyone in whatsapp , all the meetings , just a mission absolute mission .

You know , I basically all the things I didn't like there . I'm doing the complete opposite now Massive team , tiny team , all paid ads , all organic . 32% margin , 91% margin . You know , not fun , very fun , not long long term , very long term . So I've learned a lot . I needed that business to make this one good .

I couldn't have made this one at all without that one , though , of course , right you learn from the fire you learn from the fire .

It seems like from hearing from you it's like much more out of scarcity because you didn't know like how to run the ads . You're figuring it out , but then when you cracked it now it's like okay , and that's how these , this stuff compounds yeah , generations , right yeah , dude , I mean to be honest , all the stars aligned in that last company .

You can never guess it correctly man .

And he was saying that you know , they're looking at some of the huge , huge companies , um , like holland and barrett and all these companies that have like one percent margin and the reason why they have one percent is because they've obviously like raised so much capital and stuff , but it's almost guys that are at zero a month .

Don't realize that , like , sometimes , like , those businesses are at that scale , whereas what's funny is these , some of these info product companies , are doing such small numbers or tiny margins , whereas , like , they're very unhealthy businesses which you talk about in the book too .

But it's like this is kind of a lifestyle business in a way you're not going to sell it I do want to sell it in the future , not for a few years . We've got a software now , so I want to sell it with the software . You . You're building a software .

Well , it's a Go High White Label , okay , but you can sell Go High White Labels Interesting , by the way but nonetheless , yeah , I do want to try and sell it . Whether I will or not , I don't know , but I'm going to really try .

It's like 35K , 40k upfront and they'll come in and build your sales infrastructure , build ops , build your HR infrastructure and release it into the company and then take like a rev share on the backend . And that's basically what his approach is .

Instead of playing the smaller level , trying to get like a client , he's looking for like the really big plays and he's finding them . He's finding them . He's finding a few big plays a month . He's adding it in and they're they're doing crazy numbers , dude that's the way no , no , he has a and what's interesting here is actually funny .

So he's kind of sounds like similar to you in your first business . He's trying to go really big . So now he's hired like a leadership team very high level , very high quality people so he's ranking up his payroll , but he's doing it to be able to get to like two , three , four million a month .

Um , so he'd be good guy to get off a conversation with awesome dude , super cool dude man .

I had a podcast remote and he has like he's like super young this huge penthouse in montreal and all the cameras set up and I was just like it was like nine o'clock in the morning for him and he's like what's up , he's a cool dude , he's a cool , cool dude man you've got to play at a different level , man , you've got to play at a different level .

Now , you know , I truly believe that anyone can achieve anything If you just learn what you've got to learn and do the steps and if you can handle it , do you think you have a soul for a company in you ?

It was in those companies , um small scale scale ups I joined and um , brutal , like honest god , like the worst culture ever , like that Silicon Valley startup approach . Yeah , um , that's how I started my career in 19 and like , even the first company I joined when I was 19 had raised around 5 million .

We were just all we were trying to do was just not run out of money and reach America product market fit , build , build , build , build , build Engineers working 16 , 17 hours a day because you're trying to get the product out , to get it out , to try to get cash flow in without liquidating the company further .

It just takes a different entrepreneur , someone who's basically willing to lose , lose it all for the hope of of winning it all , because you're only doing it for the hope of winning it . Like you know this story with um loom when loom sold no loom sold , I think it was loom , or as a figma , I think it was loom . I could be wrong in this .

The guys had suicide letters beforehand and they eventually sold for like 970 million I'll find the actual company , but when ? But they diluted so much because they were trying to stay cash flow positive when . I'm sorry , they weren't trying to cash deposit . We're trying to stay alive , yeah , but they came down to owning like half a percent .

They sold the business and ended up with fuck all like and then , after tax , ended up with even less . Um bro , it's a brutal game dude .

true , you know , and um part of me thought but it's for the bigger exit , isn't it ? I mean these guys are going for the big exit . Yeah , and that will be the day when they're very happy , you know , but I think they're unhappy until that day I thought I'm mad about this .

I recognized and he was like , yeah , like I love to build , he's like an artist , he's a designer . And I was like , trust me , you will sell this company and you will be on fucking photoshop next day and making a new logo , cause that's his design . He's , he's a visual guy . They've never had a designer . He's on all the artwork himself .

I was like , dude , that's where your brain is , so , so , so for you , lean into it , don't over , don't kill yourself in the process , but lean into that versus like I'm . What I said to him was I said do you think you're a failure until you sell ? And he said , yes , I think I'm a failure until I'm a success . And I was like it's a broken model .

I was like that means you're always going to live in like scarcity because his other , like friends , have done like and like . This is just paraphrasing . But the idea was is that until you get to that point , you're a failure at a subconscious level ?

And I was like dude , we're all fucked if we think like that yeah , he is a brand guy , that guy I think , he's born to run proper , good brands .

My number one favorite thing in the world is just to build things build logos , build music , build graffiti magazines , build coaching businesses , build whatever , um , and he's a natural builder . We're all natural builders , are we ?