#159 Gary McGowan – Playing The Long Game in Business & Life

And I didn't really want to do that because I like helping out a diverse range of people and I have lots of different interests . So I had to think how can we blend the fact that I have loads of different interests Patty has loads of different interests , different types of clients we like to work with ?

How can we blend that with the actual practicalities of business , that having a niche is beneficial . I'm a focused person , i'm an ambitious person and I like working hard . So I get joy and pleasure from actually working hard on something . I know that everyone's like that and that's perfectly fine .

And , as I always say to people , anytime I'm documenting my own life , i'm showing you my life , not telling you to live it .

So , being around a while , all right , it's definitely a lot of people that have been around longer than me , but I've , you know , i've always had quite an enjoyable experience of using social media , posting content et cetera , and I've always gotten decent feedback .

So it's been a journey that's been primarily me , i think , sharing information as opposed to just documenting what I've been doing myself , but a bit of that too . So , yeah , i really enjoy , you know , sharing information and helping people .

I think they're all gone now , but I still have all the triage ones there And it is interesting to look back .

I think one of the things , particularly as someone that puts out a lot of information , one of the things that's always humbling and important to reflect on is what you've changed your mind about , and always when I look at older videos , older things I've written , maybe I'm always reflecting on things I might say differently now , things I no longer believe , and I

think that helps you to maybe be a little bit less certain with what you believe now and what you're saying now , because you know you've been wrong in the past . So that's one of the lessons that emerges from that .

Now , naturally , over time , certain in particular fields , your beliefs will become more rigid over time because you've hammered away at them over time . So , for example , if you're going to ask me about the basics of nutrition , i'm fairly certain that things like calories , protein etc . Aren't going to change .

Okay , i'm not going to significantly change my beliefs that much now , but early on you might be changing your opinions every week . The longer you're in the game in a particular field , the less likely you're going to keep changing those core beliefs . But there's still going to be areas of uncertainty .

So I'm still happy to share my opinion about things , but I'm always a bit more careful if there's something new or novel . You know , when there's trends in fitness and stuff , i kind of step back a second . You know , take it in , see if there's any evidence related to these things , rather than rushing to sharing about the latest study or whatever .

calories , output , fitness , general health that stuff is timeless . you know which is like what's most ?

If you're just focused on trying to get more followers , then you're going to put out more and more information that's trendy , that goes viral , that is click baity , but it might actually help people to get results And that's why you see a lot of fitness businesses out of business within maybe three years .

They say the average life cycle of a personal trainer is something like three to five years , And a lot of that has to do with the fact that people don't really like the kind of core basic information that's really difficult to actually get people to enact but is really what we have to rely on as trainers .

I'm back in the day , but that's proper , like living , true , like your circumstances , and that could be anything , it could be the business , it could be any related . So you're someone who , like deeply , is like passionate about like health and actually improving health , and then you're passing that information to other people .

That's very valuable , versus just spitting any advice on the internet .

So I've always tried things over time But what I've found is that And I'm still quite young , i sound like an old man saying this stuff But what I found is that the things that I would have been , you know , trialing years ago and gave them a shot for a while , they wave in popularity , so they would have been popular .

Then they go away for a few years and then they're popular again . They go away for a few years . It's like ice bats at the moment , like cold water immersion super popular . Now that had been really quiet for a few years , but that was super popular as well .

That kind of they wax and wane over time and people often rely on those then treating them as if they're the core , like nutrition , training , sleep , et cetera .

. And now we're like you're doing so much other different stuff . So , like , how did you build that business and build a brand ? because now , eight years on , you're doing 101 different things but you're still have that business .

But you know , my vision for kind of what I wanted in the future from a fitness perspective wasn't just related to coaching more clients and just making more money myself . You know that would have worked fine .

But what I wanted really was to have a team , because when you have a team you're able to put out more information , help different client niches , help more people overall . I just enjoy that kind of information sharing process . I've always enjoyed learning myself and then I like passing it on to others .

So the vision really was that by you know me and Patty , who have been the core of the business all that time , really We have very similar interests . He was very similar in that he was also the type of person that was always asking why trying to understand things , trying to understand the science , has a scientific background , was doing his own online coaching .

We basically wanted to start with coaching and gradually move into more of an education type of business , and that's what we've been trying to achieve . So the primary core of our business has been online coaching throughout , but that's been very much surrounded by , you know , producing content through podcasts , you know , youtube , instagram and whatever other platforms .

We've always been putting out a lot of information And that was what we started with And it's what we've maintained . It's always been . The core of what we do is share lots of free information that helps people . If they want to get coaching with us , perfect . But the core really has always been that information sharing .

He had propane fitness entire period And then he scaled up propane fitness and now they help other coaches like scale , but the fundamentals are all back to his medicine degree and how he incorporates all that into like longevity and lifestyle and everything Definitely go . You should check out . He's kind of a big Twitter guy .

But it's very similar to your philosophy in terms of like the more I acquired his knowledge , the more I pass off its information exchange versus transaction .

It's 150 different methods And that's really difficult for someone to approach when they have no background in fitness or if they have no background in the health sciences , where they're not to be able to appraise what's good and what's bad information .

So I think that's the most valuable thing for me is being able to tell people you don't need to worry about all these things , here's what you need to focus on , and then just seeing them put the blinkers on , focus on those things and get results , that always just it feels great to be able to help out with that process .

I thought , you know , am I , am I , am I taking on too much ? You know , i probably I probably did take on too much , like absolutely , but we did it anyway .

And so , practically speaking , throughout that process of me being in medicine , obviously Patty , who's the other coloner , had more time to allocate to some of the like business , business administration stuff we brought on ahead of coaching , brian O'Hanegan said to kind of manage , you know , things like sales , client onboarding , things like that .

We hired a number of other coaches , some of whom are nutrition only , some of whom are training and nutrition , and then we have , you know , someone who specializes in rehab to take a little bit of work off me with the pain and rehab

stuff . So the whole idea really has been over the last couple of years has been we want to add more people to the business that have individual sets of skills to complement our own , and that's ultimately .

What we want is that if you come to triage for coaching , that whether you have you know a preexisting illness or you have an injury , or you have a sports performance goal or you just need to work in your relationship with food I'm not trying to do it all , because no one can have all of those skills But if you have a team you can all contribute to being

able to help that client . So that's something that we've tried to do And that's been something that's been quite deliberate , because one of the pieces of advice you're given very early on if you go to any business coach in fitness is pick your niche niche down and that's going to be successful And that works . It does work , but we did .

There's there's what works and there's what you want to do . And I didn't really want to do that because I like helping out a diverse range of people and I have lots of different interests .

So I had to think how can we blend the fact that I have loads of different interests Patty has loads of different different interests , different types of clients we like to work with And I can blend that with the actual practicalities of business , that having a niche is beneficial , building a team and being that kind of company that tries to bridge the gap

between health and medicine is sort of where we kind of found that and is the direction we're trying to go . That makes sense .

coaches , other businesses and things . So , as a result , when it came to like , for example , hiring someone like Brian Ohingasa right , so he's our head of nutrition , head of coaching We knew Brian for years already . Okay , we had mutual friends . We knew you know businesses , our business that he'd been involved in .

We've seen the results He's gotten with his clients . We're able to identify that he has a great set of skills in terms of communication and working with clients who have issues with their relationship with food , on that disorder reading spectrum .

So we were able to recognize from years of following him that this guy is clearly a hard worker , clearly has values that are aligned with triage and clearly has this set of skills that would be of benefit to our business .

And that's something that's been really valuable for us , because all of the staff that we've brought on board so far have been those types of people . You know they've either been clients of triage , previously followers of triage or friends of triage , and that's quite obviously useful early on , when we're still quite a small business .

That's obviously something that would be a lot more difficult longer term if you wanted to build a business that was really going to be scaled . You can't always have relationships with people and it's something you have to take risk on . You know , when you're trying to hire someone then . So that's kind of how it's worked practically today .

Obviously to your question , there's an element of self-awareness as well , in terms of knowing what you're good at , what you're not good at and also what you enjoy . You know there's some things that I'm actually not bad at but I don't necessarily enjoy , so I don't want to focus on it all the time . So that's how we've done it .

the fact that you often don't know when and that's the next kind of question is kind of like how can someone identify like when's the right time to hire , like when should a coach go to two or go to three or go to four , because it's often like too late , They'll wait too late and I've even said in my own example , like I've had to hire more frequently

than and I waited too long , for instance .

Are they going to think the same way as me ? Are they going to do things the same way I will ? And part of it , you just have to be willing to kind of hand off and trust that person . Trust your hiring process , obviously , but trust that you're not the only person that can do this . Other people can do this as well .

And that involves , you know , a little bit of a leap of faith . And I think there comes a point where you're trying to do so many things that clearly it's devaluing some of the things that are most important .

So , for example , if I'm trying to do the podcast , you know business admin , we're trying to do taxes , we're trying to do social media , we're trying to do coaching , still juggling a lot of those things But if you're trying to do all those things and now you're not spending as much time delivering well with your clients , you're not producing as much social media

content . You're not present on your Instagram stories like you used to be . Now , the business and your clients are clearly suffering as a result of you trying to do everything , so that's a clear example of where it would be beneficial for you to try to consider bringing someone else on .

The other thing that's been that we've tried to keep as a core is that we don't want to bring people on board if we don't feel we're able to meet their needs . You know , that's been something that's been quite important for us .

So if we're bringing someone on board and we're not going to be able to get them any clients and they really need to have a consistent income and they want specific responsibilities that's something that we take quite seriously as well , because we don't want someone to come on board and then not be satisfied at all , not enjoy working with us .

That's just not something we want . So , yeah , there are some things that I've thought about .

I want to ask you about focus , because , of course , someone who's studying medicine , running his business you're even even your own fitness in there Do you ever think that your focus has been split ? How do you maintain your focus between what you want to achieve ?

That's not the case And of course , there have been times during the process of trying to juggle things where I have dropped

the ball a little bit . You know , i haven't maybe dedicated enough attention to some areas of the business , or I haven't dedicated enough attention to some areas of my medical studies and whatever else you know , relationships beyond business and career , etc .

So those things happen , you know , and I think I've gotten better over time at realizing when I need to delegate , realizing when I need to communicate a little bit better . That's been something that's been quite difficult for me because my tendency is to just keep saying yes to things and to keep doing more .

I am like , like people always think it's a virtue and they always think that you're bragging when you talk about how much you do . But I totally realized there's a vice as well and in being a bit of a workaholic like I am a bit of a workaholic , i am a bit probably over ambitious in terms of saying , yeah , let's do this , let's do this , let's do more .

I'll get up earlier , i'll work more hours , and that's come back to bite me a few times And I think you just have to be quite self aware and critical and reflective in terms of examining when you've dropped the ball .

You know , if my grades had gone through the floor during medicine because of business , then I would have been thinking do I need to reconsider here ? If our business had been sacrificed or sacrificing financially and our numbers were going down , you know , again I would have had to think , right , do I need to reconsider here ?

So they've been kind of some indicators . Now , in terms of the focus itself , i think part of it , part of it's innate or personal or something along those lines . Like I'm a focused person , i'm an ambitious person and I like working hard . So I get I get joy and pleasure from actually working hard on something .

I know that everyone's like that And that's perfectly fine . And , as I always say to people , anytime , i'm documenting my own life , i'm showing you my life , not telling you to live it . Okay , you do . You I'm not saying my life is better than yours because I work this much or whatever , but personally I'm quite a focused person .

I'm quite an ambitious person . I try to be very clear in terms of what are we trying to achieve today ? What are we trying to achieve this week ? What are we trying to achieve this month ? Setting your to-do list ticking off as you go ? I don't have any like special productivity system . People ask me about that all the time .

They ask me about all the study tips . I'm not . I'm not that good with those types of things . I'm just get up every day , work hard , go to sleep , get up , work hard . I'm good at being consistent with that . I would say .

It ended a week If we were working on two or three different projects . The guys like physically , like physically couldn't do it .

And I was actually quite weird because , like I was a very young manager I was 25 years old managing 25 engineers And I always found it quite strange how people Couldn't do multiple things , because I would be quite similar to yourself . However , as I've gotten a little bit older , i've actually had to drop a few of things I was working on and I haven't .

Like I had to drop Nearly most things to just achieve my agency and my podcast now , because I felt I was Getting not , i was getting like 60% out of everything and if we could talk like even numbers , i probably would do like three thousand dollars in this , three thousand dollars in this , whereas if I just did one thing , that one thing would do way better .

So how do you go between what you do ? Because that's the biggest thing that I kind of have a little observing you is like , how the fuck do you maneuver this thing ? because They're don't their domain specific to business versus medicine , for instance .

I'm a big fan of of Cal Newport , who you're probably familiar with his book I've worked in and various other books , and he just had a podcast recently on his podcast deep questions , where he was talking about this , about the fact that you know , even if you think you can multitask and even if you think you can just contact switch really quickly , it doesn't

actually work . There's , there's clear evidence to show that people are less productive people . People get less done And they're not able to . It takes time to begin to focus on something else and to get into that , that rhythm .

And if you're constantly switching , you're not going to get into any sort of flow state , you're not going to be able to work through problems properly . So I definitely would agree with all of that and I've tried to ameliorate that a little bit over time by one kind of having Days or times of focus .

So , for example , i'll have certain days that are This is in the in the past now obviously that I'm done medicine , but the in the past it would have been This is a study focus day . So , for example , coming up to exams , i have some days where this is a triage focus day .

Today We're focused on coaching , more so than there might be another triage focus day where it's more focused on , let's say , marketing and social media , and then another day That's right , i have an exam in a week . Today We're just studying surgery .

That's we're focusing on , and I find that when I am able to do that Well , i'm definitely a lot more productive , especially because I don't have in the back of my mind that I need to get around to these You know , other triage tasks in an hour . I need to get around to these other MCQs or whatever for medicine that I need to do in an hour .

So I think the more you can try to compartmentalize , the better , i think , in terms of productivity .

And part of that comes with just proper , appropriate scheduling you know in advance and having things like Deep work blocks They're dedicated to a particular area of the business or of medicine and that you know when they're coming , like I , i don't know if this is something I've trained or if it's something that's , i Don't know , in innate , if you will , and I've

spoken to my girlfriend about this quite a bit , asking is this something that she does ? But I have ? what I always do is I decide when I'm going to think about things and I decide when I'm going to stress about things , and I don't know where that came from .

But if I have an exam , let's say , or an assignment , this June , next Thursday , and I and I and I say to myself , right , i'll do that on Sunday , like Somehow I don't don't get stressed about it at all until I sit down on Sunday to do it . So it's like it doesn't exist . It's like I will stress about this at this time .

My girlfriend gets really annoyed about this because she'll be talking about , you know , making a checklist for traveling We're going traveling soon , for example And I literally say yeah . She'd be like have you thought about where we're going to stay in San Diego ? I'd like , no , i'm going to think about it on Sunday morning between 8 and 10 .

Like it's so annoying , she hates it . But that's literally the way I try to Program myself is I will think about specific things at particular times . If it's not the time to think about this thing , don't think about it .

Okay , i don't know where that came from , but it's something that I seem to have developed over time and that really really helps me , especially with stress . Because , as you can imagine , if you have , let's say , three assignments to you in the next two weeks , but also you have , you know , business tasks and clients to coach , etc . Totally overwhelming .

If you're thinking about all that at once and that's happened me sometimes where it's it's just all Overwhelms me . But if I'm able to compartmentalize it physically and psychologically , i can manage it much better .

Would you recommend someone going broad or narrow In their ventures ?

Okay , i think I think there's a lot of just joy in going like deep on a subject , deep in a field , and getting stuck in . So like in terms of like medicine , for example , i would I really enjoy studying a particular topic and going really deep on that topic , rather than switching between loads of different things and trying to have a broad general base .

You obviously have to have that in medicine , but I think I think narrow and deep for most people is probably better and probably more reliable . And I say that because I think there's probably a tendency these days for everyone to kind of want to have their own business and have their hands in a lot of different pies . Like it's quite attractive .

You know , that's why I try to bring it down to earth a bit , because I think the idea of like having your hand in a few different businesses , having generalizable skills , and It's really attractive , you know it's like right . I can work in different places . I can , you know , have the laptop job , where I work a few different jobs online , whatever .

It's quite a nice thing . Whereas the idea of I'm going to specialize in not just medicine but cardiology and not even just cardiology cardiac electrophysiology and I'm going to spend the next 40 years trying to become a subspecialist in that field , that's exhausting to think about , because you know that's all you're doing now , the rest of your life .

You did dedicate all your attention there , but I think there's a lot of joy that comes from that , and I think that the reason I say it's more reliable is because if you follow very conventional systems , you're probably have a higher probability of success in that , like if you're just following let's say , i'm going to be a lawyer and work my way up in some

sort of practice and you work hard at that , yeah , there's a path there , okay . Similarly , if you're going to go down going to medicine or something and you're going to work hard every day for the rest of your life , yeah , you're probably going to be successful .

The kind of , let's say , general entrepreneurship approach is always going to be more risky , but where there's a lot of risk , there's also a lot of reward . So I think there's some of my general thoughts , but I don't have that question figured out .

even on that . So the reason why I'm probing that is because I've had those realizations myself .

You know , as I mentioned , i studied , like you know , semi software engineering work and tech company And then I wanted to go deeper down that agency route , the podcast route and my background like I've a background in trading about a background , different , different domains And I felt that when I done four things I was doing nothing , i was doing a small bit of

each , even though it was , of course , doing a lot and I was , i was making good money and all this . But now the fact that I'm way more narrow , it's a guy does . My podcast says it's like the shower test .

It's like when you're in the shower and you're washing your hair you're only thinking about one thing , not four things , and for me it's been helpful .

So my experience is that it's been helpful And I feel I've been less anxious and stressed because I'm not like , oh , i need a hurry And I think when I sit down I'm focused on one particular domain , you know , but it doesn't really interesting there , but the comparison , so obviously like having your own business is like super hot and shit What is actually success

to you ? because you've been exposed to entrepreneurship fucking element on my business side of things for years and now you're actually looking at more the traditional part of doctor medicine . So how do you , how do you , determine what success looks like to you ?

thinking about now , by the way If I went down that route again , i think I'd be fulfilled , i'd have quite a lot of joy . So I don't think either of those for me are required for me to be successful as such . The domains that I consider in terms of success are like firstly , i want to . I want to have a family .

Okay , so that's one of the most important things to me in my future . If you told me I had to quit work and go on social welfare to have kids or whatever , that was the only option , i'd do it .

Okay , so that's one of the most important things for me is that I have a family long term , even things like living relatively near my parents and my family at home .

I'm quite a family oriented person , so that's something that's a big criteria for success for me , and other things related to that , like having a nice house that I can live in , getting to spend time with my kids not too much because I'm going into demanding fields , but I want to be able to see my kids .

They're all things that are really important for me in terms of success And , of course , they're definitely financial criteria , because what I would like for my future , thinking about success , would be that I don't have too many financial stressors .

Okay , so that if we want to go to holiday or I don't know you need to upgrade the car or someone sick , whatever it happens to be , that those things aren't overwhelming stressors . Okay , i don't have like a Bugatti goal or anything . It would be nice to have loads and loads of money .

I'd probably I'd love to have a plane of my own bus , because I also want to be a pilot . But you know , the real desires for me are kind of those core things . Right , i want to have a family , i want to have a nice house , i want to be financially stable And I always want to be working on something .

Okay , i just like working on things and I like learning .

So if you just put me like , you can probably tell by the books , but if you left me here in this room with that stack of books and someone was just paying me enough money to live and I could just read those books and go out and train out the back and that's all I could do for the rest of my life , i would genuinely be quite content .

Okay , i really like learning . I really like training . I really like challenging myself in any sort of domain And I think , whether it's in business or whether it's in medicine or anything , once I'm constantly leaving challenged and moving forward , that's success for me . I just need progress . That's just what feels good for me , it's what brings me joy .

And if we can couple that with decent family life , some friends , maybe a couple of hobbies , that'd be wonderful .

And there are the things that I'm interested in and I genuinely think that this podcast will go , just because of running indefinitely , for that particular reason , and it's that application of learning .

And that's what I definitely want to ask you about is how do you find a balance between theory and practice , because a lot of people , even in your field , will be all theory , maybe even some researchers , medical researchers , and then in the entrepreneurship space , even where I am , is a lot more practice .

Now I've only read like four books , but I can kindly say that I've actually implemented the books right . But there's definitely two extremes and you seem to be in the middle . How did you do that ?

You get to a certain point of knowledge where you realize , well , that's the first part of it , you realize that I have so much more to learn , but also you learn so much that you realize , okay , the basics actually still apply .

I've been studying all this physiology , biochemistry stuff for close to a decade now in some way , and I still haven't found the kind of secret diet hack or weird training hack that everyone needs to do . So maybe I'm not going to find it .

So I think over time , the advice that I end up giving to clients has become more consistent , probably more repetitive in some ways , because you encounter the same client archetypes over time the fat loss client , the rehab client , all these different things . So the advice has become more basic , more consistent and more refined .

And I think that's really what , where the theory meets practice , is that a good practitioner is able to really keep all the theory in their head , understand where that theory might become relevant , but really distill it all down to very simple things , especially in a coaching capacity , when I'm trying to tell a client what to do , because I know all the details

of things like carbohydrate metabolism and the biochemistry of that , and fat metabolism , all that sort of stuff the really detailed nutritional biochemistry . I've had to learn all that in my time .

But when I'm playing it to clients I'm like , okay , i want you to reduce the amount of potatoes on that plate And I want you to eat a bit more broccoli instead on that plate . Keep the plate the same size . They don't want to hear about the sulforaphane in the broccoli . They don't want to hear about the resistance starch and the potato .

It's not important to their goals . Some clients ask about all the theory and then I'll give them that information . But I think a good practitioner is just going to use the amount of theory that's required for the job , and having a bank of extra theory I think is really beneficial .

And what I've observed is that it's generally the more novice beginner trainer or a practitioner that wants to share all of their theory . They kind of want to share everything they've just learned And it's like their post today is what they learned yesterday , and professionals often end up making a lot more basic And they've forgotten more than that .

Beginner trainer has even learned .

That's who he was writing for continuously And he had loads of like trouble mentally because he was thinking like , oh , like , what about his friend who talks about all this different fucking metabolism challenges and all this kind of stuff , whereas he was just talking with the simple stuff .

Business grew faster , people relate to him more , people realize that he's like a human and he shares that information to do this incredibly knowledgeable and he's all the details , but he never shares that stuff with it .

I think you're at an extra level on it because you have so much theory built up that it seems quite strange that you don't try share some of it , because even some people try to share that knowledge to people who are just behind them . But you really break it down to a more balanced level .

Okay , so that's like my litmus check Litmus check , right , gary , you're speaking a bit too high here . You need to bring this down a touch , and sometimes I'm happy to speak at that level of detail .

You don't always have to simplify things , but where you do have to simplify , it is when it comes to practice , because social media and practice are two different things , in my view .

When I speak into my own clients , i just find that when I review messages I've sent , programs I've sent , it's really basic stuff , and often I think most of the questions I answer from my actual coaching clients end up with an answer like you don't actually need to worry about that , here's why , here's why this person is telling you that And here's what you

need to focus on . So I really do find that I'm often talking people down off the ledge of jumping into some weird diet or some weird training program because it came across an online . So that's been interesting for me , because I think when you start off , you think that in future I'm going to be giving the most advanced advice , the most advanced programming .

It's going to be stuff that I don't even understand now . Well , in fact , that hasn't been the case at all .

to that . All right , you know I can't just go in Sorry Day one of medical school , do the operation and see when you , when you , fuck up .

But there is even a bit of that medicine and that's the thing that's actually quite interesting is that you know You wouldn't think it , but you know if I'm going When the first time I would have taken bloods on a patient as a , as a medical student , you know I Did . The doctor that would have been with me there over my shoulder .

They're making sure everything's going okay And the patient , you know , would be aware that , right , i'm a student , i'm practicing and they're giving me a little bit Lee way . They're understanding this is the first time this guy has done this Okay .

So there has to be a first time for everything and I think , especially when it comes to things like Business , where you know if you're starting your own business , the risk is very much on you .

You know it's not surgery where the patient is gonna be the one that's harmed , and It's totally appropriate to just start , mess up and iterate as you go , and that's when theory becomes really reinforced . It's the best thing about medicine is that you spend all this time in the books , but it's reinforced by patients on the ward .

So What I remember most , let's say if see a patient with kidney disease and I'm studying , you know a particular topic about kidney disease , if you can put that , you put a name to that disease . There are a patient to that disease Like I'm thinking about this patient now .

That's where it becomes like really solidified knowledge when theory and practice come together . So I think people should all we should start , where possible , with you know practice , get going , get stuck in , depending on the field , of course , and then reinforce it with theory . So , for example , let's say you're a personal trainer .

You don't need to read every book about personal training before you become become a personal trainer . You don't need to understand everything about exercise physiology . You're in the gym , right ? You're a novice personal trainer . Your client ask you you a question You don't know .

You say I don't know , but I'm gonna find the answer of this evening and I'll text you or else We'll discuss it our next session . Is that okay ? Number one client respects you . You've demonstrated epistemic humility . You understand your limitations . That's a very professional attribute . I'd much rather hire that person than the person who pretends they know everything .

And so that's the first thing . But number two , there's a clear reason for you to go away and learn that thing , and you will remember it , rather than just reading it in isolation .

I want to ask you about environment design and about how you design like your life and whatnot , because you are , like , really unique . Even since I first I consume your content , however long ago , was always quite unique .

How do you design your environment when , like the herd mentality in Ireland is very different A lot of time , then , the way you think or the way you act , you could have I know you could have went so many different ways in your career , in life .

Um , like , personally , i'm , i'm quite a home bird , you know . Actually I Really I actually like Ireland , you know , and I like , i like Kerry in particular .

I'm living in Cork at the moment , you know , a close second but I I like living in Ireland , i like , you know , living somewhere that's Preferably kind of , i think , between urban and rural environments is probably the sweet spot for me And I like being , you know , close to nature and that's that's a big part of like lifestyle design for me .

I like I know some people like love the kind of hustle and bustle , the big city They want to be in in that environment , and I understand that . But I think for me It just hasn't really been the case .

And like , similarly , i don't , i don't it's weird , but I don't like beaches , like I'm not a and the idea of like sitting on the beach But my laptop doing work , like that's nightmare , nightmare to me , like the sand and no , something you'll love . That that's the dream and that's perfectly fine .

So for me , i've just had just understood that I'm happy out in Ireland .

I'll do a bit of traveling , of course , but I'm happy out in Ireland , i'm happy out in this , this location , and then , like , in terms of like Design more broadly than of where I'm based , that will be affected by medicine , because with medicine You have to kind of move around to different hospitals and stuff , of course . So we'll take that with time .

but friendships for me I still have a , you know , a lot of friends and a lot of people in my life from , you know , secondary school and We wouldn't necessarily see each other all the time . I've always been a very independent person And I like spending a lot of time on my own .

So I have my friends from secondary school , i have friends from medicine , i have friends , you know , with the local Jiu Jitsu club and stuff like that that I train with . So I have plenty of friends , but I spend most of my time on my own or with my girlfriend , who I live with as well .

So most of my time is actually spent on my own and I'm quite content with that and I'd be content with that , you know , long term as well . I just enjoy my own company and enjoy working on things , as I said . So the lifestyle design as a result is kind of built around .

Am I near the amenities that I need ie , jim and Jiu Jitsu club and University for the last few years . Bit of nature , you know I'm not too stressed about having beaches and stuff nearby , but that's kind of been the core of , i suppose , the decision so far .

Similar to myself , it would be the exact same guy podcast , quite frequently obviously with other people , but apart from that , i wouldn't actually necessarily hang around with other people that often obviously like living with girlfriend too , but yeah , like not really because , and as a result then I kind of live in alignment with what I want to do .

So , train fitness held , grow the business , grow the podcast , i kind of just wake up and do that . I don't feel like that . I'm I don't feel like that . I'm kind of like interrupted by other shit .

So the fact that you kind of like Live not necessarily on isolation , but live in comfort of your own , of your own thoughts and ideas , allows you to work towards these big goals as a result , mm-hmm .

You know , i kind of I enjoy the , the hospital environment , you know , when it's busy and there's something going on and you're constantly doing something . But you know , the , the nightmare for me is like the , the loud bar up where you can't even talk and there's just tons of music . Like that's just not my thing at all .

So , as a result , you know , my life decisions have just been built based on , you know , what do I actually like doing , as opposed to just kind of Following what my friends , like you know it's perfectly fine to live a little bit differently to how they do 100% .

Again It's love a nice kind of IPA or dark beer and I would typically Drink like , let's say , if I was sitting down with a book in the evening I might have a beer , something like that . I don't really go on like a session as such very often , a couple of times a year maybe and I don't particularly like how alcohol makes me feel , you know either .

You know , when I'm drunk I kind of I don't really like that idea of not being in control and you know You say things and you do things differently to how you'd act when you're sober , and that I just kind of uncomfortable with that and then Afterwards always get really anxious , quite depressed after . Alcohol just doesn't really suit me , like being really drunk .

But I do enjoy , you know , a drink .

And the reason why I say it is because , like in Asia , there's so much Options , because of the fact that there's so much alternative options , because of the fact that the weather is so good .

So , like you know , i know you're not a fan of the beaches , but , like at the weekend , i can go to the beach , i can go on long hikes , i can go literally into the jungle and never have to think about these things , whereas I felt when I was in Ireland that I Had fuck all else to do , like literally nothing else to do .

It's like Friday in Dublin and you're like , right , i can go to district aid , i can go to a few other places or yeah , all these clubs and genuinely . And then you wake up on Saturday You're like , oh well , i'm after training and now it's like what else can I do because it's lashing rain for like eight months a year ?

Does that make sense , like you know ? and of course , of course You can go like to the mountains and Dublin and there's hundred different things to do , but I just mean , for the average male 24 year old , you don't have Many great options versus going to a club and chasing girls and doing all that kind of shit .

You go on a night out and right out I want to have a drink , because it's a bit of a social lubricant and all my friends are drinking and like Irish lad culture in particular , like you know yourself , like We're out and one of the boys isn't drinking and he's being soft , he's gonna get a lot of stick for it .

You know he's gonna get a lot of abuse and fellas start buying him drinks and making him drink . Okay , yeah , that's that's the way a lot of friend groups are in Ireland , so it's very much self-reinforcing .

And because a lot of people don't do that , a lot of people will laugh it off as Just a few pints with the lads , whereas a lot of people in Ireland genuinely have a lot of people who are A lot of people in Ireland , genuinely have a very clear alcohol problem and they're able to laugh it off as Ah sure , he's just fond of a pint .

You know he likes a drink , you know , but yeah , whereas this guy's clearly an alcoholic . So you need to first be honest about is this affecting your life ?

So , for example , if you've , you know , clearly had consistent self-destructive behavior while you're drinking , it's ruining your weekends because you're not able to train , you're not able to eat well , you're , you know , feeling anxious and depressed and Monday and Tuesday even struggle to get the gym on Monday and Tuesday because you're still wrecked from the weekend .

I would write all those things down , make a list of all of the cons , then make a list of the pros and you might have a few . You know It helps me go out and see my friends . But then , if you're really honest with yourself , you know , if you asked your friends to actually meet up with you during the day , just do something , do something else .

Maybe they'd say , yes , maybe they're in a similar position to you where they've just always been doing this because it's what you do , it's what you and the lads do . So that's what I would do . I would try to be very honest about the effect it's having , and then what I would do is you know , try to .

You can either Gradually ween off and do the thing where you say I'm going to go out but I'm only going to have four pints . My experience often doesn't work Okay , especially once you're out and you know you have those four points . You feel a little bit loose , probably going to end up having more . I think that having a couple of weekends is this .

What i always recommend people is have a couple of weekends where you don't drink at all , and then what you do is you make a counter list so you say what were the benefits of me not drinking ? how did i feel on Sunday ? how did i feel on Monday ?

what things that i do that i normally wouldn't be able to do , and generally that's quite reinforcing for people to start making those changes , because you'd be surprised at How much your well being not just the day of drinking , the day after and days after is impacted by that very high alcohol intake .

I think if you're looking to make a big change , which is what i was kind of doing , which is why i kind of went to know alcohol For nearly a year now some end of job . I'm no angel like . The last time i drank was in ibita End of June , but i was like i moved to singapore and like singapore is so expensive for alcohol and shit .

I was like i always wanted to do it . Fuck it . The time , the time is right . You know , i know , yeah , never say never , but i doubt i will drink for a while . For sure I was able to like really quickly . The feedback loop is so positive .

I was gonna ask you next book and habits , because the feedback loop and you don't drink is that Where are quite similar . On Sunday morning i still get up the same time six , seven am And i'm in the gym from my biggest session week , which is the last Sunday , i'm back . It's thirty five degrees .

I'm starting work at eight or nine on Sunday And that period is so nice because it's so stress free , is like i don't need to be doing .

This is an extra bit , and then even then i can go have fun or whatever , and i kind of get that extra bit of a you know bump essentially from of enjoyment and in comparison then before , like i'll be so miserable , i would be like You know , having like arguments my girlfriend , it's just , you know , just tension is all this shit when you're hungover , you

know . So just , the comparison was just like it was . It was night and day , you know , and this kind of what i would voice for people and people from my podcast . I've actually given up alcohol divided on three months Or one month or two months , and they're like fuck .

You know , i'm in the pool , i'm swimming a mile , i'm swimming , i'm running five miles , running ten miles .

but I think we're gonna need more people like that , because we need people that are like positive influences brilliant , you know , and even if it's even as we talk with trends , right , if No to low alcohol is a trend , it's a fucking beneficial trends then , like fucking cutting vegetables , you know , i mean , you know i , that's what i kind of think about it ,

you know , and i started like measuring all my like Sleep and heart rate and hrv as a result and it's a joke , before , when i was in college , i was sleeping like five nights , five hours a night , four hours a night , and now i'm i'm selling the angel , but i don't know six and a half hours , which is huge increase , right , huge increase , yeah .

Like where i've looked at , you know , my heart rate on the night out and i'm like am i doing a cardio workout ? like i'm just sitting down or maybe i've walked across the room and it's like It seems to be super sensitive and it's same the next day .

Like i look at my heart rate and where would normally be in a forties , because it's generally quite low , it's like nineties , which is over a double , two , two hundred percent increase in resting heart rate , which is clearly not a good indicator of your current state of health . So Definitely , have a look at your resting heart rate .

Have a look at your very ability as well , if you can , and you'll be shocked at the impact that that's having on your physiology .

So , for context , i tore my a , c , l when i was young , was a seventeen , and i was playing like high , high level rugby is running a hundred meter , high , level two and i tore my cell . This okay to me , cap and i really change my life inside out for the better . It actually change it for the better .

How is that process for you , for your , for your injury ?

One Pull it totally off the bone and required surgery for same . So that was Was a fun process . And then more recently , nine weeks ago , i tore my right hamstring again pretty badly , again doing jiu-jitsu , but not as bad , and i've been able to just get back to jiu-jitsu this week . So it's still rehab but it's ongoing .

So anyway , the main Question is about that first injury , because it was so severe , didn't necessitate so much time out of support , it necessitated surgery and being in an e-brain crutches for weeks after .

That was surprisingly and i'm so mindful of saying this because i know how difficult this is for some people , but i didn't affect me much at all and turn the injury in terms of like psychologically i thought it would , and i deal with a lot of clients who have , you know , the psychological consequences of injury , sometimes worse than the physical consequences for

them , and i understand that a lot . What was the things ? that was a protective factor for me was that , as we discussed , i've got so many other things going on that in a way It was actually like a de stressor because it freed up all this time that i'm normally spending in the gym training at jiu-jitsu and all this stuff . Just do all the other things .

So i was actually getting more done in those other areas of my life . i was able to focus on those other areas of my life And there was a little bit of a benefit there .

But the other thing that i always say to people in relation to injury is that if you're especially for athletes , if your whole identity is wrapped up in sport or given activity and you get injured , where's your identity now ? it's gone and it's so difficult for athletes to deal with .

This is why you see a lot of athletes you know really depressed when they retire from sport because their identity is gone . It's been stripped away from them . Where is my identity isn't necessarily tied to my own athletic abilities . Is that important to me ? absolutely , but it's not my . My whole identity where is ?

if you're a G a player , and that's where you know you're , all of your pleasure in life comes from . It's where you put all of your attention . It's where you're , maybe social status and notoriety comes from . Then You get injured . That's a really , really difficult thing to deal with , so for me , having other areas of focus was a strong protective factor .

But i guess your experience with injury rehab from like a business perspective , i guess i'll let you to know that it was gonna be better though you were able to kind of see True the difficulty , maybe realize that , okay , you're gonna get back to change it in twelve months or eighteen months .

Do you often feel people kind of struggle like that from big injuries that they don't understand they might be able to get back to a high standard ?

It's not always gonna be linear improvements Being able to understand that helped me at those times of uncertainty . You know , if i had a bad day in the leg was really at me . I was able to say this is normal , this is a standard part of the process . It will probably be better tomorrow . If it's not better tomorrow , probably better next week .

And it's not better next week , let's see how things the week after . So i'm able to rationalize quite a bit in that sense . That definitely did help me .

Know that you mentioned and There is another side to that , though , which is what you might be aware of the process , but there's also the issue that Be sometimes being too close to the injury and that you're you're thinking of it very medically Can be quite difficult as well , because you know i'm thinking about things like you know , it is the wound healing

appropriately . What if the what if the stitches come out ? what if the Collagen that's being laid down isn't being laid down properly ?

and you're kind of intellectualizing it and that can sometimes make things worse , first on people , not others , but for me , i think the primary focus was just on Always being aware that rehab is not a linear process , because that's one of the things i can get clients most often kind of drop if i'm explaining someone person .

I draw the kind of analogy of you know , multiple hills on the way up to a mountain . You know , sometimes you're climbing a mountain and you You think that's the summit and it's not . It goes down a bit and you're like , oh no , i have to start climbing again , but eventually you do reach the summit .

I was doing my bilateral line , like this morning , and the strength is more or less equivalent between sides now . So we're kind of just nudging up the stairs one step at a time and two steps of design and i'm enjoying it . You know i i'm enjoying the process of Training again .

The fact that i had to do so much rehab work is actually made me enjoy Training legs again , which i hadn't for a couple years because i've been primarily focused on jujitsu and also , i think , getting back to jujitsu now It's made me a little bit more patient . So you know i'm able to go into a session now and say this is what i'm focusing on .

Remember , gary , you've been injured so You don't have to pressure yourself into wrestling with the heaviest guys are , you know , going for every take down . You know take a , take a seat . You know focus on what you're trying to focus on today . So i think it's help me Maybe mature a little bit in that sense .

But with that said , you still feel that spark of just wanting to be aggressive , wanting to go for everything , what probably made me a little bit more patient yeah , that's the main thing , because of whatever your pursuit is , it's patience .

you know , some people call it human chess Satire , obviously , but Your , it's very physically demanding , it's on the cardiovascular system , from a strength perspective , all that sort of stuff very hard work out What you're also constantly thinking what if he puts his hand here ? what am i gonna do then ? what if i ? you know , what about the angle on that ? what ?

what's the sequence to do this pass ? what's the sequence to finish this take down , etc . and there's constant troubleshooting . then what did i do wrong here , what i'm gonna do differently next time ? and also integrate pretty well with Probably my favorite subjects , which is human anatomy .

so it's like the study of human movement and the kind of cognitive demand and the physical demand , which are all the things i love , kind of come together as one . so i love it , it's brilliant , is best thing . i wish i started it So many years prior because my background really has just been the gym .

i've kind of just always done my own thing in the gym and you know , jitsu last few years has just Kind of made me feel the same joy i had when i first started going to the gym . and of course there's the new begins , the beginner stage etc .

but i think just the all those factors that i mentioned , especially cognitive element , problem solving , it just makes it really really enjoyable for me .

You know , getting into your next couple years of medical would be awesome to and building up triad , which is gonna be sick .