How to Make a Unicorn with Wizard Oz (Oberon Zell)

the wizard oz Oberon Zell raven Heart. So if you could just tell our listeners who you are and what you do. I'm Oberon Zell. I'm a wizard. I am the founder and headmaster of a school of wizardry called the Gray School of Wizardry. I am the founder, a co founder and Primate of the Church of All Worlds, which is the oldest and first established pagan church in the world. First one to claim, uh the identity of pagan back in seven is when we first took that on.

It goes back quite a ways. I'm an author. I've written a number of books on mostly on magical subjects and also mythical beasties and forgotten history things like that, and many more to come. I'm still working on that. At one point I raised unicorns, which seems to have been a bit of interest. Yes, oh my gosh, I'm so happy you brought that up. So what else would you like to know? What else would you like? I would just love basically when I came across you on

the internet. So there's blessings that come with the Internet as well as frustrations. I'm all over the place. Google my name, you got all kinds of stuff. Yeah, Oberon Zel Raven Heart, who's a wizard. I came across and then I started diving deeper and all of a sudden unicorns came up, which to anyone who knows me, they know I'm obsessed with unicorns and rainbows, and I'm basically like a five year old, but I'm thirty three. So it took me on this journey to finding you. It

was a quest to finding Oberon. So we found you, tracked you down, and now I just wanted to like hear from you how you created unicorns or did they exist in the past, Like how tell me about that. Well, many many years ago when my beloved life mate Morning Glory, who we had forty years together until she h she passed away, discorporated, moved on whatever six years ago. But when we first got together we had so many shared interests. It was just uncanny we were actually reading the same

novel at the time we met. It was that and Kenny. And one of the things we were interested in, as we discovered earlier, was critters of all kinds. I mean, we worked with critter care for during our life where our house was a zoo inhabited all kinds of crutters. We lived out in the woods for many years with

all kinds of wildlife being part of our household. We're very much into animals, and we were particularly interested in the mythical beasties, the legendary ones um you know, and this range from from imaginary creatures entirely to ones that were actually maybe real, but we haven't been able to confirm them in cryptozoology, like you know, Lotinous Monster and

big Foot and stuff like that. And we are feeling was that behind every story there was a grain of truth somewhere, and we thought it would be really neat to write a book in which we explored these stories and found out what they were based on, found out

the truth at the heart of it. So we set out to do research on that, and the book was going to be called Creatures of Night Brought to Light, which was inspired from the novel The Last Unicorn by Peter Bagel, where there's this kind of a gipsy witch who has a little traveling menagerie and she calls it Creatures of Night Brought to Light. So we thought that

would be a cool title for a book. So as we were doing our research and traveling around the country, this is before there was an internet, before you could

google stuff. Now it's easy, but back in those days you had to go to libraries, and we traveled around and and visited libraries all over the place, and in one of those at the University of Oregon and Eugene, Oregon, we discovered the secret of the Unicorn, and that is basically that unicorns were real animals who actually existed at various times in past, but they were not a species,

so they did not continue. They were in art form that was created by a secret um process of animal husbandry that had been discovered and lost, and we discovered several times throughout history and applied to different species of horned animals. So the earliest unicorns that we saw from the Bronze Age, like four thousand years ago were tarine. They were bull unicorns. There was a the Oriental unicorn

are cherving their deer unicorns. They have branching horn. The h The Golden Age of Greece was inaugurated by the appearance of an airing ram unicorn at the court of the newly inaugurated um King of Athens, Pericles, whose reign was the Golden Age of Greece. There are many many of these that have here, but the ones that were the most famous were the caprine unicorns we see in

the medieval tapestries. Those are the ones with the beards. Now, there's only one kind of animal on the planet mammal that has hoofs and beards in that's goats, and we set about finding the right breeding stock to be the animals that look like the tapestries. Everybody always assumes, naturally, because of all appearances, that they grow out of the skull,

but they don't. Their growth is precipitated, stimulated by glands that are in the skin over the center over the forehead before birth, and they're in there purely in the skin, and these are called horn buds. And there's a little glands and within the first twenty four hours after birth, these glands start secreting enzymes, and the enzymes percolate down into the bone and stimulate the development of horns at that point. So it does end up going into the

bone eventually, the enzymes do. But what before they do. The skin is loose, just like the skin on the back of your hand or on your own forehead, and these can be manipulated. And if the tissue is manipulated so that both of the nodes secrete their enzymes in one spot, a single horn will grow rather than two separate ones. And the trick is uniting the hornbuds prior

to the beginning of the process. And this um this was actually a discovery that was made by a biologist name of Franklin Dove in the nineteen thirties at the main research station in in in Maine, the state of Maine, and he was interested in he was studying horn development and he discovered that's how horns developed, and then he did he was interested in unicorns just out of curiosity and fascination. He said, I wonder if that may be

how unicorns could have been created. So he tried it on a newborn bull calf and it worked, and he produced He produced this dificent taurine unicorn that got very little attention because it was just the middle of the beginning of World War two and everybody forgotten. Besides that, they didn't look like anybody's idea of a unicorn. It was a big bull with a single horn. But the earliest there aren't believed. Nobody cared about this. Well it was odd. It just kind of got lost and forgotten

and obscured by history. But look, think of this. You said that, Um, everybody these days you talked to you asked about unicorns, and everybody, well, they're just a mythical beast. They're not real, you know, It's just it's just not a real thing. And yet it was only forty years ago in that living unicorns were brought back to the world and were all the big sensation for the entire decade of the eighties that we were in every newspaper,

every magazine or TV shows, books. It was huge. It was a sensation, and forty years later, the world has forgotten? Are unicorns getting written out of history? Well that's the thing. Isn't it interesting? Isn't that fascinating? How much else has been written out of history? How much else have we lost and forgotten? How many of the things as myths and legends were actually something true? Which is what initially was the start of our book. That's what we wanted

to write a book about. And we did write the book. And there's a chapter in it about the unicorns, and there's chapters in it about mermaids and unicorns and dragons and all kinds of things. Can you tell me about mermaids because I really, um, I find I fancy myself a mermaid, So I want to know your your wisdoms of the mermaids. So as for mermaids. After that, after we made our lease agreement with the Circus, we decided, will what are we gonna do next? What can we

do for an encore? And at that time there were reports coming into the Crypto Zoological Society, which we had joined, about sightings of mermaids um in the Coral Sea in and off of an island called New Ireland, just just north of New Guinea. And we said well, we should get up an expedition then and go and find him. That would seem like a pretty cool thing to do.

So we all took Scooba lessons. We got a crew of thirteen people, including an underwater film crew that had done a movie called The Deep, and they joined us for that and we hired a dive boat and we sailed to the island of New Ireland and there they were and we found them. Um, it was a lot more to the adventure than that, And you can see the whole story in the video that was made as a video documentary called The Wizard Odds, so it's in there,

so they're the truth behind that legend. Is also a living creature that is called the fish mary or the fishwoman, which is basically equivalent to our word mermaid, which means woman of the sea. And the main reason for that identification is that the females have breasts like a human woman. And and the idea was that everything that has lives on land has an analog in the sea, so we have sea lions and sea elephants and you know, sea

horses and all these kind of things. So the idea of having sea women with these creatures seem logical, and many people have associated the mermaid legend with Syrenea, which is essentially correct, but they mistakenly identified them with dugongs, which don't look anything like that, and they have this big paddle shaped tail like a spoon, whereas the the the the sorry not to goods manatees, sorry manatees, manatees, Is that what it was? Because I saw the video

the wizard. Yeah, and the manatees are not are not the same at all. They're they're big, fat, slow moving freshwater critters with these big, flat, spoon shaped tails. But these animals, the ones that give rise to the legend of the Mermaid, are as different from that as a sea lion is from a walrus. In other words, they live in the ocean. They're fast and sleek, and have

a tail like a whale tail. It was beautiful fluke to tail, and they're extremely rare and probably on the verge of extinction at this point, so it's um it's quite an issue, and our discovery of them identified with the Mermaid legend was a big deal because we observed them in the wild behavior that was not known at all to have occurred. So but we tracked it down.

We tracked the legend down to its source and we did a big report for the Cryptal Zoological Society, and we filmed the whole thing and came home pretty broke and that was that was the end of the story with that. Was that sad as someone who it was very sack. It was tragic because while we were at

the village with it, the sightings had been done. Um the one evening, a little Japanese tugboat called Cuddles pulled into the into the harbor and anchored next to us and the eat there have been a Japanese enterprise on the island where they were cutting down the forest and putting piling the logs monstrous, big old rainforest logs up into a raft at the beach, and then the idea would be eventually this big, huge ship would come and a little tugboat would come up and tie up the

raft of logs and haul it out to the big ship where they would take it to Japan and sank them all in the water, awaiting the end of the total deforestation of the rainforests of the islands. It's a big story, kind of an awful one actually, and we discovered all this going on. So that evening, however, we were on shore with the local folks having a sing, sing and uh, you know, having a nice little feast and singing songs to each other. We sang them grateful

dead songs. We had musicians and they sang us their songs that they knew, which was really sad because these people have been there for maybe forty thousand years. These are the last neander tall people dennis Ovans, we now say um and their traditions went back to the dawn

of time. But the missionaries had showed up there around World War two and had forbidden them their own customs and language, and they had taken from them their artifacts and put them in museums and had instead taught them Christian hymns in Susserunga, their language, and all they could do was apologetically seeing Christian hymns like a way in a manger and stuff in there sunga language. So that

was also a tragedy. And the next morning there was we got up to do our morning sighting because we had seen them the night before in the bay just at sunset, and so we got up at dawn to see the dawn appearance because they only came in at dawn and sunset. Otherwise they lived down in the ocean. And there was something up on the shore, and with a feeling of dread in my heart, I jumped overboard and swam ashore. And there was the female of this

family pod. There had been a male of female and a baby, and she was dead at the shore with a bullet hole in her. And the little tugboat was gone, and the logs had not been taken, and it was pretty easy to see what had happened that somebody on the little boat that had simply shot her and then oh, we're going to be in trouble, so they left. But what would be the purpose of that? I mean that see, that's where I would not know how to reconcile like I would get. So yep, we were. We were heartbroken

and angry and upset and freaked out. It was devastating for us as well as for the people of the village, and you can see that in the video. It was just why people would do a thing like that. I don't know, why do people go around carrying guns and shoot at things? You know, Um, I don't understand big game hunters. I don't understand people who go to Africa and want to shoot rhinos and elephants and lions. I

don't either. I thought maybe in your wizardry you would have some sort of understanding of that part of humanity, because that's something that also is like such a huge question to me, like why I don't understand that urge. I think he has something to do with wanting to have dominion over nature. If you recall the story of the Garden of Eden in the Bible, after the people are cast out of the garden for disobedience and becoming enlightened. Uh, the order is that you shall go out and have

dominion over every creature on the earth. No. Wait, that's after the Noah's flood. Sorry, Noah's after That's when it is Noah. Yeah, when he lands, then God says, okay, you shall now have dominion over everything that lives on the earth, and everything that crawls on the land, and that swims in the sea and flies in the air. You shall be the terror and the dread of every living thing. And that's the charge that's given to humanity

in that story. And there's people who feel that that's what they want to do, that drive to dominate, to have dominion is a powerful force, evidently because it has led us to empires and conquests and wars and tyrants and dictators throughout all of history, a lot of destruction that I feel like, well, because this is something I write songs about a lot. Is just why people need chaos and why we need conflict and drama, and I

just that need. I have it. Most people I know have some fascination with a version of it, but I guess I just don't understand where that comes from or how to eradicate it from my heart, because I feel like coming to peace is the ultimate like that's the ultimate objective. It is, it is, and we have to go past this, we really do. We have to outgrow this. It's it's it's a great plague of humanity, this idea that we must have dominion over everything everyone else. And

and a new culture has been emerging and recovering. I mean, once upon a time, I think that's the way we were, and many many people are, you know, perfectly nice. And the traditional Native American aspect about how nature is perceived that we see in uh, you know, words of Chief Seattle and stuff like that are very profound that we are. I mean, the real lesson here is that we are all children of the same mother, and we are all one.

We are not separate beings. We do not Our mission is not to have dominion over the earth and all of all the creatures. Our mission is to um to achieve that kind of a oneness, to restore the family, to restore into heal, into nurture and protect and all that stuff. And it is emerging. No, I definitely think

that there's progress in both directions. It's like it feels like the pendulum swings towards darkness and it's really intense, but then it swings towards light and it's really intense, like kind of like it's all a question of which wolful wind is that you want to take the old story, you know, and it's the one you feed. So we have to feed the world we want to have, and this is a good time for that, because um is is. I've mentioned a few times in this conversation, but they

haven't really gotten too far. This is the the next sixty year cultural renaissance cycle is that every sixty years back to the Italian Renaissance of the fourteen eighties, there's been a cultural renaissance, the Reformation of the fifteen forties, the the Golden Age of the Elizabethan English Renaissance of the sixteen hundred's, the Scientific Revolution of the sixteen sixties, the Great Awakening of the seventeen twenties, the French and

American revolutions and Age of Reason the seventeen eighties, the Transcendentalist Awakening of the eighteen forties, the Golden Dawn at the turn of the century, and the New Age cultural revolution of the nineteen sixties. And now we're at the dawning year of the next one, which is being called the Awakening. And so here we are again, here we are. So do you believe that, like what do you believe

the Awakening is going to bring? Ah? Well, I think that there will be a new wave of positive consciousness. I mean, look at the previous ones. Look at what they have brought. The last time around brought us um, you know, the sexual freedom movement, the free speech movement, the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the gay rights movement, the environmental movement, and the pagan movement for that matter, and so many of the movements of positive energy that

have shaped the world over the last sixty years. All began the last time, and then the previous ones. We have the same thing, the poetry, the music, the art of each of these film museums, you know, and still inspire us. You know, We're still play the music of Beeto, and we still read the poetry of Whitman. You know, he's still you know, look at the art of Michael

Angelo and Leonardo da Vinci. These all occurred during the sense when when I think about like the latest one would be the sixties, the nineteen sixties, then I think of the music at that time, it's always so inspirational, just full of like each of these ages is accompanied by its own music, and you, as a music musician, are in a space now to be bringing part of the new revolution of what is the music going to

be of this age? The music of the Awakening. I'm I'm pretty sure, without having heard your stuff, that you're already doing it well, no pressure, but I'm going to try to fully embrace the awakening and try to bring it into the musical realm of the soundtrack of the Awakening. It's crazy to me that what the world has forgotten, and like what you said, earlier when we first started talking. What just kind of gets like women in the patriarch you get written out of history, and that is a

sad omission. And I think that women have been liberally erased from history by centuries of patriarchal oppression. The rise of the patriarchy, which has occurred in not just one single thing, but many episodes over the last thirty six hundred years or so at least, has some largely been designed to try to disempower women and erase women from

the history and from the recording. One of the greatest of all, in my mind, one of the great women wizards, was Hypatia of Alexandria, and she was the last librarian of the Great Library and an incredible teacher and an amazing woman. And they made a wonderful movie about her called ed Gora, which I highly recommend. It's very authentic.

She was an incredible woman. You know, um hat Chupsuit was the first recorded female pharaoh, and since it was so unusual for women to rule, she even had to wear a little fake beard, you know, attached to her ears with a strap. It was like, very cute. Why does it seem like men the patriarchy want to erase women and from history is it a what is that?

What does that need power? Women have a different kind of an agenda overall when it comes to power, women's goals tend to be towards creating security and and thinking towards the succeeding generations. The women have generally raised the children and bear the children and want to make the world a better place for them, whereas men want to rule, you know they and these are competing agendas very often and every we find in history there are many societies

which you see, they have a stopping point. They're frozen at a moment in time. And if that may be the Middle Ages, like uh, we see in the Middle East, they're frozen in the Middle Ages right there, they're still stuck in this time. We see places that are frozen

in the Stone Age. And in all of these there's a story, it may be a historical story or just a legend in which the men rose up and took away the power from women because prime primarily originally women held the greatest power because of having the power to bring forth new life. Without that, you've got nothing, you know, I mean, you get rid of the women and you don't have any more babies. That's kind of basic there.

And so in the fundamental society structure, the men's job was to provide and nurture and protect the women and to be that, to be the you know, to go out and do the hunting, to go out and you know, defend the village against invaders, all that kind of good stuff. But all of the advances of civilization we consider cultural advances in um, well, all all the arts, all the

domestic arts. The domestication means making a home, you know, and that's what women have been engaged in and uh invented basketry and weaving and and cloth making and cooking and pottery and it goes on and on an and all these things, whereas men's primary contributions historically been weapons. That's what the men want to do. Just like any new wonderful invention that people come up with today, the military comes in and wants to figure out how to

recognize it. And that's what the guys do. It's embarrassing. As a guy, I really well, I wanted to know what that is, that desire to destroy versus I do feel as a woman even when I see someone I don't know. I feel very protective and um, you know, if I go out and I see another woman at a bar or something like, I will always be super protective of other people and other women, even other children.

I see that I aren't my children. I don't particularly like children that much, but I am so much more protective. You know, as animals, we want to procreate and have our lineage go on in the world, but at the same time we have more and kill each other's children over whatever fill in the blank of religion, over oil,

over whatever. And I just never understood that I've m I am a woman, but I also feel like I have a lot of masculine tendencies because I grew up without a dad, and I have really made my life for myself. So I feel like my yin and yang I have a I have a lot of both. Like the masculine is very strong, sometimes to the point where I wish it would calm down, and then I'm also very emotional, so then the feminine is very strong. I've

got both sides flaring. I think the goal of the ideal optimal thing is balanced, as you said, the integration of the yinni yang and all of that and um and and in civilization, humanity, especially patriarchal humanity, has gotten way out of balance and it is driven on imbalance.

I mean, it's hard to know exactly where it started, but there was one particular moment in history that that is I think pivotal, and that was in sixteen b C. When um the Bronze Age came to an end and the Iron Age began with the devastating natural cataclysm, the explosion of a huge volcano north of Creek in the and and our legend of Atlantis stems from this event, and the events of that time also are whether recorded

in the story of the Exodus. The parting of the Red Sea, for example, was a tsunami drawing the water out from that particular explosion. So we can pinpoint the date of these things to sixty seven because we have the lava and stuff, and it was it was devastating. And up to that time, the culture of the Mediterranean, Egypt, the Middle Kingdom of Egypt, the Middle Kingdom of the Middle Age of Greece, all these cultures were very um egalitarian.

You know, we don't see these this big power struggle and weapons and wars and military stuff in that era, most of the cities were unfortified. You didn't see big walls around them and defenses. What we see is um You know, men and women are working together in partnership and building societies based on trade primarily, and we had trading empires where people were all over the world, very different than conquest in war and aggression. But then this

thing happened, and it was incredibly destructive. And before that time, the orientation that people had religiously was towards the Earth, towards Mother Earth and her children. The We have the story of the Battle of the Titans and the Greek mythology where the Titans were the children of Mother Earth of Gaya and they were defeated by the rising new Olympians,

who were the sky gods who conquered them. We see the same thing in the Norse mythology of the taking over from the Vanier, or in Christianity the story and Judaism, the story of the War in Heaven where the rebel

angels were cast down and defeated. This is a recurrent kind of a theme of a conflict, and that all revolves around this particular moment in history that was pivotal because One of the things that happened at that time was a reign of Nicola iron meteorits meteorite all throughout the whole Middle East centered around the Black Sea, and iron in the ancient times could only be obtained from

meteors meteoric iron. Forging iron from iron ore requires affords that has to reach temperatures that were simply not available in ancient times. So any iron that we had from the old days was always meteoric nicola iron. Well, there wasn't much of that, you know, there really wasn't. Most of the meteors are stony anyway, and very rare to find an iron one. But at this time, suddenly there was this rain from heavens of thunderbolts of the gods,

is how they were interpreted. Because the people who lived in the steps of Asia around the Black Sea, especially to the north side of it, we're nomads, nomadic horse people. They were the people who first domesticated horses for riding, and they live that way. They just rode their horses on a great sea of grass with no features, no forests, no lakes, no rivers, no mountains, just an endless sea

of grass. And so their markers were not on the ground, not terrestrial markers like we make now on our maps. Their maps were of the heavens, the stars, and the planets, and they named all the constellations, all the constellations that we now utilize. There's where they came from. These guys laying on their backs, they're looking at the stars and making star maps. We even see star maps in cave paintings on the ceilings of caves where people were doing that.

And then suddenly, out of nowhere, suddenly these streaks of light, these thunderbolts from the heavens are raining down upon the obviously hurled by the gods, you know, because the planets also specifically were thought to be gods. All of our names of the planets today their names of gods, Jupiter and Venus, Mars, Saturn, you know, all of those Venus,

all of them. And so this is what you got up there in this Suddenly, this particular bunch of people were equipped with invincible weaponry that the world had never seen before, and they were in the technology involved in working with copper, which everybody had at that time during during the Bronze, and copper age could easily be utilized to to beat nicolayon meteor at nicolayon, which is like stainless steel. It's it can also be magnetized, which makes

it magic, which is also pretty cool. You could have magic swords that were magnetic. And with these iron weapons, with their swords and spears of iron points, they came crashing through the remnants of civilizations for that time that had been devastated by earthquakes and volcanoes and and tsunamis and stuff, which are all in the record, you know. And there's iron stuff cut through the copper and bronze shields and weapons like a hot knife through butter. And

it was devastating. And this is called the Aryan invasion because the word Aryan means iron, and it also means meteorite. That's where the word comes from. Iron Aryan, meteorite, the same word, same thing. And so a new pantheon emerged, a new kind of God's, God's not of the earth, but of the sky. God's who were whose power was not in growth and regeneration, God's whose power was in

destruction and devastation. And this became the new religion. Because these people had the weapons and they killed everybody who stood in their way. They just simply wiped him out. They destroyed the temples, they raped and murdered the priestesses, they killed the men trying to defend the villages. And out of that arose a whole new religion, a patriarchal mono theistic religion based on a powerful God who lived

in the sky. Sound familiar at that moment, and this is the moment of the exodus and the interest of enough. At the same time, a new means of communicating emerged um and that's the alphabet. The Before that time, there was no alphabetic writing. Alpha writing was all done where it existed at all, in by drawing pictures hieroglyphs. People

try to draw pictures and ideas. The first alphabet, that is a couple of dozen symbols that represented sounds of spoken speech phonemes, was invented by Moses to write down the Ten Commandments, because that you cannot write the ten Commandments and hieroglyphs, So we invented the first alphabet. Other alphabets were invented later on by other people. Mohammed inventedy

the Arabic alphabet. So this is this began, and what this process in gave us was a shift in the in the hemispheres of our brain from one side to

the other. The focus previously, when we were doing visual communications and um and and all the type of world from that was basically right brain stuff that the hemisphere brain you associate with intuition, emotion, dreams, music, poetry, all that kind of stuff that had been the primary locus of consciousness, and it's still the primary locus of consciousness,

predominantly women, exactly. The left hemisphere was the hemisphere that governed mechanical stuff and practical things and and mathematical things and all that kind of stuff that we associate with the right hand. So the right hand versus the left hand kind of thinking here and that shifted. It shifted over two. So we got a whole new kind of a culture, a right handed culture. And all the weapons and tools that emerged were meant to be used only

by the right hand. Trying to use ordinary scissors with your left hands, or almost any tools are all made. My mom is left handed, Does that mean she is more um left brain or right brain right which the sides of the brains control the opposite side, Yes, stronger. But here's the real kick. The communication between the atmospheres occurs right down the middle, in an area card called the corpus colossum that allows both sides to talk to each other. And in women, the corpus colosum is normally

much much larger than it is normally in men. Now there are men whose corpus colosum is bigger and who communicate with each other with both sides, artists, musicians and so on, who have better communication, but by and march um, and especially in some extreme cases, the corpus colossum for men is a whole lot smaller, and they're not talking to the other side at all, especially the very extreme examples of the tyrants and misbilities some men I met

really really believe you with that one. I mean, you don't have to look too far to see them in government, you know. Yes. So that's basically the story. And for the last thirty six hundred years, this uh new monotheistic religion worshiping an omnipotent sky father who destroyed by wrath and thunderbolts, had taken over the world and its various mutations to become the dominant religion. Because it's that's what it's all about. Is dominance, dominion. They want to rule

the world. You know. In fact, the strongest sect of that today are called dominionists. That's that's what they even call themselves. They want to have dominion, they want to rule the dominius. It's it's the significant branch of Christianity, of which Vice President Pence is a is a prominent member. For example, they used to in fact, if kids were left handed, they would force them to become right handed. The left hand is called the sinister hand. That's the

French for left Latin. And that also we think of that as evil. So a lot of women were persecuted and burned at the steaks, which is for being left handed. You know, my mom would definitely have been burned at the steak. I think I probably would have been burned by now too, if that was the thing that it was a purge to try in Europe, to try to simply purge the gene pool of intelligent, strong, powerful, creative,

independent women. And I think that the most exciting thing of this time, this century, this past century, this past hundred years or so, going from um, you know, giving getting women getting the vote for a little over a hundred years ago, has been the re empowerment of women, women taking a new place back in the world. This is huge after thirty six hundred years of trying to suppress you guys. You know, they can't do that anymore. They're not allowed to burn. It's at least not in

this country. I mean in the Middle East, you know, it's still that way. There is a rising of a new cult of really horrible guys called the insults involuntary solivates. I've heard of this, but I don't know. I would love for you to tell me about this, because I've recently heard about it, but I don't actually know. I don't know the facts about what an in cell is. It's basically guys who can't get laid because their their well they're not they're not nice, you know, That's what

way of putting it. And they think that they are owed that that that that's what they should have and so uh they feel that rape and persecution to women and even killing women who won't put out is justified to them, and it's become a whole subculture. It can be very embarrassing to be human, especially when I see um the treatment of animals and just other human beings.

Because I've read that you love animals. I had a connection with a book constrictor when You're young, and I have your book here, Grimmoire for the Apprentice Wizard, and this is by Oberon Zel raven Heart, and it is basically a handbook on how to start a journey into wizardry? Would you put it that way? Having written that book, realizing how that actually would put together a textbook, the next thing we had to do is to create a

school to use it. So that kind of gave rise to the Gray School of wizard Rate started with that book and it's still a basic textbook for the first for the first level in the schools blowing my mind and I I feel like I was raised by a very open minded hippie woman, and it's there's so much information in here. Every chapter is like a different level. You're making my brain just step up into whole different perception level. Every chapter I read of this book. So

I recommend everybody out there get this book. Is fascinating. It is so interesting. It makes me connect deeper to myself and also those around me, that animals around me, the earth, everything. It just kind of puts it all into this really beautiful perspective that I personally have been so busy that I don't stop and connect to that often, which is why I'm really excited to talk to you.

But keep going. I didn't want to interrupt you. I just wanted to tell you that I love your book and I wanted everybody to know that your books amazing. When I formed the Gray Council, I got a hold of a collection of a couple of dozen prominent stages and majors that I happen to know in the magical community.

I set forth the goal for the book to work together to create a handbook that we all wish we could have gotten ahold of when we were starting on the path, and one that come around our next incarnation. This is the book we want to get handed to us of our coming of age. You know that kind of and that it would be something that you keep is a lifetime reference like the Boy Scout Handbook. So I'm giving this to everyone for Christmas, and I know that Christmas is I mean, you tell you tell me.

I actually don't know much about paganism because I know that the Church of All Worlds, you were one of the founding members of and that's neo paganism. So what is the what are some of like the founding beliefs and is it a religion or is it just more of a community. Well, you know, um, that's a very interesting way of putting it. Um it is a religion. Um it is also the Church of all worlds specifically,

is a church. The church is a community of people who share a common vision and values, belief system, faith, whatever it may be. So that's what constitutes a church. Um. Religion, the word means re linking and it's it's all of that that connects us with the larger world, with each other. Ever, anything like that, that's what the word means and should mean. It should not mean chochanity, which is unfortunately the way

it's become understood by far too many people today. And we've been losing a really important concept which people replace with spirituality, which is all very nifty, but that's really only about the realm of the spirit you know, we'reas it's also important to connect with the realm of the material world as well. Everything everything should be connected. We've severed all these connections. We've severed men from women, humanity from nature, you know, light from dark, um. You know,

every cost possible thing. We think we've we've split these things up into little separate categories where they should not be. We've separated racist nations, UM, languages, religions, faith, everything. And I think that part of our task, the real assignment for this stage of of society, now that we are just into the Aquarian age and also at the beginning of the next sixty year cultural renaissance cycle, which I like to say a little more about it is to

bring it all back together. And paganism, that's what it's about. It is the old religion. It's the primal thing that means simply people of the country. It means country people um. In French, the word the Latin word pagan is translated as passan, which means peasant. Our word peasant comes from that. So it has to do with that connection with the earth, that deeper connection which connects us with everything. Because we

go down deep enough, everything is connected. Because we all rise from the same Earth, and we're all children of the same mother, Mother Earth. Everybody knows about Mother Earth, Mother Nature. She's the most universal archetype in existence. You know, there's not a culture or people anywhere who don't recognize. But there are so many people, especially in power, that do not want to protect Mother Earth and just the Earth and global warming, our climate change. It's kind of

almost like a subject that's uh for opinion versus. In my mind, it would only make sense to all come together to protect the very place we're living on. And it's a very symbiotic relationship we have. And without the Earth we are fucked. And somehow that's lost on a lot of people, and it's really confusing to me. The thing is this sense of separation. Again. People think they can be separate and and we aren't. We are all um. We are cells in the greater body of the living

biosphere of Earth. Our DNA is shared with all of life on Earth. For the last half a billion years, since the Cambrian Explosion, the life on Earth has emerged as one single, vast entity, comprising countless species and ecosystems. But these are like the organs and cells in our own body. Just as we start off life as a single fertilized cell, and every cell in our body carries that very same d in a and protoplasm, the very

same thing is true for the entire planetary biosphere. All life began with that single origin point half a billion years ago when um, well, I think it was a moment of fertilization. I'm I'm of the opinion that life has come here from space. I am too, I am too. Point isn't I wanted to ask you about that because I have a very strong intuition feeling that the extraterrestrial life that we've connected with and it's all been very secretive,

is about too. That information is about to be given to us and openly, like it will become part of a conversation and won't be looked at his quote unquote crazy or like you're a whack of like. I just have this feeling that it's going to start becoming a part of our culture to talk about it more, much like a race in the past year has just become taboo to all of a sudden, that's on the table to talk about. I feel like extraterrestrial life is about too.

I just have this feeling that very soon it's going to be it's going to go from being this weird, taboo, very cookie thing to talk about all of a sudden be something that is on the table and we're all

going to address as the Earth together. Well, I think so, and I think that we will find the great cosmic secret when we start actually um looking at extraterrestrial life, even even whatever we may find on Mars or on the other planets of our own solce of our own space exploration, purely apart from what may be hiding an area fifty one in any case, I think that the real secret is going to be that we all share the same DNA, and that is that we are part

of a vaster thing. That the Earth is seated and grown just like we seed, you know, plants, or that we send out offspring, and that that the ultimately of all life forms, every life form anywhere, the fundamental goal is to reproduce itself and developing spaceflight and extraterrestrial contacts and terraforming of other worlds. That's how a planet reproduces itself. Convinced that that's how life came to the Earth. It's

making another world habitable by by terrans Earth people. You know that they planting and seating and nurturing and gardening, you know, to shape a new environment that would be hospitable to life. That's what terraforming is, and that will be our goal. As we go out there to places like Mars and other worlds, we will be trying to make them habitable. So the end goal is to just keep going. But is there a point to life? Do

you think there's a ending of conscience business? Do you think there is a evolution where then you just are done being what you would call conscious or do you think that is infinite? It's infinite. I think that in fact, consciousness is the fundamental foundation of the cosmos itself. When we get down to the in the field of quantum physics, which is a big conversation going on these days in the magical community. Everybody you cut you talked to anywhere.

If you bring on any other you know, wizards onto this show, well I'll talk to you about quantum physics. You're the only wizard I know. You're my favorite wizard. Thank you. That's pretty easy. But it's turning out as we're articulating the laws of quantum physics, as we're discovering they are turning out to be exactly the same as the laws of magic that have been preserved in grim noires for thousands of years and passed on down so um.

The point of that is that if we go deeper and deeper, we get down past the cellular level, down to the molecular, down to the atomic, down to the sub atomic level, down to the particle level, all the way down to the bottom. There is no there there. There is nothing solid, There is no things, you know, even even subatomic particles are not objects. There there spins.

It's like you're looking at an ocean and you'll see waves and eddies and little whirlpools, but you can't dip them out in a bucket and take them home with you, you know, because they're not actually things. And this is the way we get down to the very basis. And what we get is what's called the quantum field that is at the foundation of everything, and it is not

a thing. It's like an ocean of which everything else are just waves and eddies and currents in it and vortices, you know, and spin and all that stuff, but no things. And that is consciousness. The what is emerging out the fringes of the most forward thinking qualit physics is that that the cosmos, the universe is consciousness itself at the fundamental level, which means that everything that we experience as a reality is a simulation. It's it's a They called

us the simulation hypothesis. We're living in the matrix. Essentially. I have never seen the Matrix. I've also never seen Harry Potter. I'm so screwed. But I was going to watch it last night, but I was like, that's silly, And now I fully am going to do my homework and watch both of those things. But I had to tell on myself that I haven't seen the Matrix or

Harry Potter. But I know what you mean in terms of civilization because I heard you speak on another podcast and you were talking about, um, this avatar idea, which I would love for you to explain to the listeners because I found it really interesting and I really connected with it. The best metaphor for consciousness that we've always used as water. So we we talked about the river of life and the will of souls, and we talked about that existence is like you know, rain drops as

individuals and eventually we flow down. But the thing about water is it's a universal stuff and we can pour it, you know, from one vessel into another, and it will take the shape of the vessel, but it doesn't have any shape or form of its own, and it's all the same stuff throughout the universe. In fact, it's the most common and oldest um compound in the universe. It's it's everywhere. We used to think that Earth was unique because we got all this water, but now we're finding

it everywhere. Everywhere we look, there's water. It's the most common substance in the Solar System and the galaxy and everywhere. Most of it's frozen, which is why we weren't really noticing that it's there. You know, there's you know, frozen enough water frozen beneath the craters of the Moon to fill the Great Lakes, oceans of Mars, frozen beneath the sands, and the rings of Saturn are all icebergs, that kind

of stuff. So as it is with consciousness and we as these physical vessels, were just like a vessel that contains water in which the consciousness is poured into us. We are avatars, just like we have in our gaming thing. We we animate these avatars, we create them, then we enter our consciousness into them and we act through them. Well, right now, our gaming things are pretty crude. I mean, we sit back, we have a distance, we have a

keyboard in front of us. But now we're getting to where we can put on a virtual reality goggles and actually enter into that world and look out through the eyes of the avatar and be within the avatar. Will that's just another level. Now, this is where we are right now. I think how far we've come in the last ten years with this, for the last twenty years.

Imagine where this kind of thing will be a hundred years will our gaming worlds look like then we will be completely immersed in them, like in the movie The Avatar, the Sorry, the the Matrix, or any other places. Now imagine a thousand years from now. See, our present existence is a tiny little sliver in time, just a tiny little sliver. It was two years ago. It was the presence, right, But we have to we stand on the back on the top of a huge, huge pinnacle of evolution and time.

Dragons ruled the earth for a hundred and fifty million years, and all of humanity has only been here for two or three hundred thousand years. You know, we've only had m agriculture for ten thousand years. Because this is what we do as conscious beings. We can't stand boredom. We have to play we have to do something. We create, we invent. This is what gods do you know? And and we are all God in that sense if if

we look at God as cosmic universal consciousness. But I was talking about there with the quantum field, well, we're all a part of that, not just a separate part. We're all We're all one, and we're all interconnected with it. We're connected with the spirit that flows through us that we share with all other life in the universe. We're

connected with the water that flows through our body. We're connected with it, with the protoplasm and ourselves and the d n A. The connections are so deep and so profound. There is no separation, and death is not a separation.

Death is like in a game when you come to the end of the game and you may have a spectacular death in the game, and then you you res out and you step back and you're away from the game and you look down you said, well, that was that was interesting to I want to play another game or maybe something different. What else have I got here

to play? Do you think there's the other? Do you think when you're because I love the idea of water, like I think I'm thinking of my body as the outside part, and then you just pour my consciousness in and that's me. So then when I when it's my time to pass away, you it did another word for passing on. I was reading, I forget what it is corporating,

discorporating corporation, which I've never heard of that word before. Um, when you discorporate is just your consciousness being removed from the shell, almost like a cicada when they shed that shell. So where in your wizardry wizardry would you say that that consciousness then goes the fact that every culture, every people, and every religion has an idea of somewhere to go after this one, that our consciousness does not end a death. Everybody has an idea that it goes on, but they

have different ideas of where it goes. And some of these I think are derived from our experience and dreams, because we go into another world where we are conscious and we experienced stuff all around us. And I think all of the afterlives of different cultures, whatever they may be, you know, have in hell, the blessed aisles, the you know, Valhalla, wherever it may be. Everybody's got something out there is that it's a it's also a creation in a sense.

It's a virtual reality, like a dream that we then passed back into. And maybe there's another one behind that and another one behind that. You know, we don't know where we are, how many layers down are we It's like one of those Russian nesting dolls, you know, they keep having layer after layer after layer. But it's the important thing is it doesn't end. Well. That sounds exhausting.

Though to me, dying and getting to go, even just to have like a little time off sounds more relaxing than just never getting time off sounds a little exhausting. I think we can get time off. I mean some of the concepts are basically about that. A place to have a little time off, a resting place, a paradise of vaccasion spot. And you know, many of us come back for another round, you know, we reincarnate, you know.

But I don't think everybody does that, and I don't think it's a requirement, but it certainly appears to be an option because we have lots of good documentation of that, and some cultures have it a one way trip, you know. Well, the University of Virginia has done long studies on children who vividly remember their previous lives, usually their deaths, usually

children who have nightmares. If you get them to talk about it and draw pictures, what you will get is an account of their death in their last life because it was the last thing they remembered before they went out, but it but it left him with such a PTSD that they come back again carrying it still so um And this has been documented where they've they've gone back and done the research the history to find out who

is this other person? Because some of these kids have come with such detailed descriptions, they've had names and places and locations, and they've been able to track down the previous person who had died. It's actually confirms the story. University of Virginia look it up. I will, I will look it up. It's so interesting because I've always not always, but I have believed in reincarnation. And I love when there's some sort of place I can go to that

seems like a reputable source and read about it. I don't know why I need that confirmation, that external confirmation, but it does make me feel more at ease. I have done a past life aggression myself and for me, I believed I was burned because I felt so so so hot, and still in this incarnation, I'm always hot, always, like to the point where other people it's intolerable for some of the people in the room. Everyone in the room. I like being freezing cold, and I love being I

also love being wet. I love being in the ocean. I don't know what that is, but I truly feel like I'm not sure if you have any insight into this, but I feel like I should have been a mermaid, or I should have been a fish or a whale, or just I feel like, potentially I could have been an animal. I don't know if animals can come back as people or people can come back as animals, but I dream about whales every night, just like hundreds and

hundreds of whales. You know. This gets into something that I've I've speculated a lot about if we die and our spirit sold then rejoins the the ocean, you know, like like the water being poured back, you know, and going on down the river to the ocean again, from which another cup will be drawn at some future time where we're not the only consciousness. Obviously, whales have a

huge consciousness, much bigger than ours. And so sometimes when that new cup is dipped into the well of souls and come out, it may not be exactly what was in it before. You know, it may not be entirely human, and may be part of some animals as well. And in the case of a whale, of whale spirit dies, I don't think it even all fitted into one human body. It would probably require, you know, divving end up a bit.

But um, I think that that's the way it works, is that we're all just like the d n a that we have is shared with all of their life. I think so is the spirit, and the spirit as is literally the water, the water that we drink and absorbed through it's been it's been here before, it's passed through the bodies of every living being for about millions of years. It's been drunk and piste out by dinosaurs.

You know. I really strongly believe that when new beings of the same kind are being produced, then there's lots of room for new spirits to come in. But what happens when huge numbers have been exterminated, like what we've done to the whales, where we once the oceans had billions of whales and then they were virtually exterminated for several centuries of whaling. Where did all those spirits go? You know, they had to go into new places in

humanity would be the place. There's a legend among Native Americans called the story of the rain Old Warriors. And the legend is that the spirits of all the Indians who died during the European invasions eventually had to come back somewhere and they reincarnated in the new generations of the children of the invaders because they had to come

back somewhere. And the story came out first around seventy or so when it was put out is the Hopie prophecy, and and it was said that the generation had appeared as that because part of the legend was that they would have a name similar to Hopies, because it was a Hopie story, because that means the peaceful ones, and

they would be the children of peace. So they said that, well, the hippies fit the prophecy, and they would wear the feathers and beads and and and take up these ways and return to the to the traditional ancient ancient ways. You've got that kind of stuff going on. It's it's all goes around and around my hippie. Sure, come on, okay, just making sure. I just want to make sure you generously you put it in presence. It's not azz i,

it's it's still a thing. Yeah you are. It seems like a thing that was in the seventies, but I guess it is still something you are. My mom is a hippie as well. I guess I'm kind of a hippie. Also. I'm so grateful for your time. And I know this has been a weird, a weird turn of events, but I just want to tell you I'm so appreciative of your time and I would love to continue this conversation

sometimes because it's just been so interesting. Um. And before I let you go, would you just tell us, for anybody who's listening, if they would like to attend your school, how they would go about doing that. Absolutely, we would love to Harry. This school is made for you. If you're listening to the show and you're digging this stuff, the Gray School is what you're looking for. And it's Um.

We got about three students all around the world and a couple of dozen teachers in over five hundred classes in sixteen departments at seven levels of apprenticeship and then moving on from there. It's a unique and amazing place, and you can find it by just going to grad school dot com g R E Y S h o o l dot com and check it out. You can look over a lot of stuff without actually having to enroll. But if you do enroll, I think that you will find it incredibly rewarding and I hope to see you there.

I still stick around enough to teach a few classes, but I'm mostly off doing other things these days. But we have an amazing faculty and incredible students of all ages. We we have youth students, but most of our students are adults, so don't feel that it's a thing for kids. It's it's only that that we have openings in space for kids as well, but mostly it's adult stuff. And hope to see you there. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being patient and talking with me

extra long. I appreciate it. Keep on creeping on.