Welcome to Keith's night. Don't tread on anyone today. I'm honored to be speaking with a Waco Survivor David Thibodeau. You can check out his book Waco, a survivor's story. They just made a show about his book and another book by the FBI negotiator at the compound during The Siege David. Thanks so much for your time. Sure. You let me start off by saying by one of the FBI negotiators. The other. Side is on because there was twenty three different FBI negotiators during The Siege.
And they try to say in interviews, try to say that's because, you know, 24 hours. We always wanted an agent available. Well, the truth is whenever they had an FBI negotiator that was working well with David koresh and or Steve Schneider and there was a Harmony going.
They would take him off and put someone else on and sometimes it would be someone who was an atheist that it was it varied to their degree of Personality that the particular FBI negotiator that they would put on that was working with David, but it's funny Gary Lesnar. He was the guy that was early on and was saying, you know, we shouldn't we shouldn't bring David koresh's Vision to come to pass.
We should maybe relieve the pressure put take pressure off the situation instead of the Tactical commanders, putting pressure on the people inside there, which actually, you know, in retrospect for me because obviously for years. I didn't like anyone associated. FBI. But at least Gary had, I mean, I thought that was he had the proper way of looking at it. If they would people were coming out, kids were coming out at the first week or so, and some of the older people were coming out.
If they had had the foresight to maybe listen to Gary and continue to have that the harmony going between the two parties. It may have ended very differently. Now during the negotiations, there was one episode where David koresh made a deal. Hey put this video out and then we'll come out and David did go back on that deal. Do you feel your David was morally justified in doing so well.
It wasn't a video is a 60-minute audio tape that he had made revolving around the Seven Seals, but it wasn't really that detail. Personally. I'd had studies. David that were far clearer than the 60 Minute tape. I mean, I pretty much understand his message where he was coming from and where he was going, and it made sense to me as a reasonable person. The tape didn't so much. I, I wasn't too pleased with tape or whatever. It's what it is.
He still actually did make a deal with them concerning that 60-minute audio. They did say originally that they would play it nationally and they ended up only playing it on a Christian radio station. So, is that why he Come on, I don't really know. I don't know what David's reasoning was. He just said that he was told to not come out, but he's, we weren't going to come out yet that something else had to be done first. I don't even think he was sure what that was.
I don't think until later when James Tabor and fill Arnold tools and theologians that had been monitoring the situation through running Bowman's talk, show that we were listening to on the inside as well when they said, you know, David actually does. Of some kind of scriptural reference in and relevance here and we would be interested in
his message. And looking at it, when Scholars actually said, that David took that very seriously because before it was like the scholars didn't want anything to do with what he had to say, or he never found the right scholar to talk to. I think he would talk to people that were running seminary schools and stuff, and they were you're very mad at him because a lot of their students would leave their seminary schools. Come and study with David.
That happened over and over and over again, but did you have another question? Yeah, you look like. Oh sure. Yeah, you know, I always ask people what they think. The original justification was for the February 28th raid. And I've actually never gotten people to get the correct answer. Now. I'm curious, what was their justification for the first rate on February, 28th. And what do you think? The real reason was interesting?
There's justification. Well, what they said that they would Chris had fully automatic weapons. I think, you know, he was taking upper and lower receivers putting them together. And making semi-automatics in the fully automatics, of course, the original justification. Or there was a lot of people overseas that we're getting upset with Dave because their families were leaving them and coming to study and stay with David.
So there was a lot of but that that's not a legal reason, obviously the legal reason, you know, David and especially I think Paul fatter they had a, there were licensed firearm dealers. They went to gun shows. They bought and sold legally. We had yellow sheets on all the Firearms. One of the interesting. Things a few recently some of the ATF reports. One of the report says that they would crush was talking to one
of the undercover agents. And he said, look, I'm getting upper receivers from one manufacturer lower receivers from lower receivers from another manufacturer on putting together and selling them. He goes, That's not illegal. That's what he told. One of the ATF undercover guys. And apparently the undercover guy said it was legal, but David koresh didn't realize that it was illegal, but it was and then he cites, of course, the the case law for that.
So the bottom line is, he would have had To pay a special tax on those upper and lower receivers, I believe. So basically they had a reason for an investigation but David invited them to check out any of the firearms that they wanted to check out through Henry McMahon, who was the Firearms dealer? Is it? Come on and I'll show you the yellow sheets. They chose not to. They didn't want to go about it that way. David crash was the only person on that search and arrest warrant. So let's see.
There's 130 people in the building and it's only David koresh on the search and arrest warrants. So they Really could have gotten him, he dropped by the house. They said he they said that publicly that he never went to town or anything. Well again their reports prove them to be Liars because in their own report few days before the raid David koresh and to of the undercover agents across the street, went to a firing range about a mile away from Mount
Carmel and they fired. They fired AR-15s together. So let's think about that for a second. One of the one of the undercover guys for the ATF takes an AR-15 and shoots at a Target and then hands that firearm to David koresh to shoot it the same Target and that just blows my mind when I read that report. So they were at a firing range with David. They could easily have gotten a
men. That's not how they wanted to do what they wanted a big raid and they wanted the big Ray, because what happened, Randy, Weaver and Ruby Ridge, six months before. And that is of course a federal Marshal shot Sammy Weaver in the back. Weaver was killed by an FBI
sniper. I mean, it was a big screw-up and I know that the ATF there were worried about their budget coming up in Congress, that they were going to lose money and maybe, you know, their budget meeting, their big budget meeting was coming up and they needed, they wanted more money. So they figured if they had this big. Here's our here's a group of religious guys, religious people who study and live by the Bible living, in the middle of nowhere, Texas. So they go in the big attack
like this. There's not a chance. Of civilians on the people inside the building being hurt. They're easy to demonize because they're a religious group, who has firearms. And David koresh has a lot of kids with different women. So obviously very easy to demonize. There's one of my favorite quotes throughout history of Senator Henry, Clay. And the 1830s said, the device is of power and its minions are the same in all countries. In an all ages.
It marks its victim and denounces it exciting, the public hatred, so I can conceive. It's on the pieces and encroachments. So I obviously committed that little that little gem to memory. So I thought is just so perfect, but it's exactly, that's exactly it. You know, if the rate of God, well, for them and they want to showed a bunch of kids coming out of a building, and they were actually they rehearsed what to do. The media consultant for the ATF was saying.
Now, when you come out, make sure your backs are to the camera. So everyone can see ATF and make sure your tender with the children, when you're bring them, bringing them out. And when you bring out the Firearms, hold them over your head to make sure that everyone can see, you know, and so they literally they rehearsed this, they rehearsed what they were going to do. Unfortunately. The first thing they did was when they came in, they shot the dogs.
We had five Alaskan Malamutes or penned up in an area. Not have heard the agents. They were behind a fence and there was a team of ATF people that went right over there to shoot the dogs first and the trials in San Antonio. One of the ATF agents indicated that the first shots were shot at the dogs and that when the other agents heard the shots from the team shooting the dogs. They thought it was the people
inside them. They started shooting in the front door, David koresh of the front door in his hand saying, hold on. There's women and children here. Let's talk about this and boom. All these shots came out of and he fell back from the velocity of the bullets.
Coming through that door. And then everyone heard Perry Jones a seventy-year-old on our man screaming going down from a bullet wound, from a bullet, a gunshot in his, in his stomach from the outside forces and people that were with David at the front door. I was not, but everyone tells me. That's when people started to shoot back. So one more thing to about that, incidentally the helicopters they had helicopters on the scene and those helicopters are shooting in the building to its
shot Peter Jet on a tower shot. Winston Blake who was eating a piece of French toast on his bunk bed went right through his window and into his head. I actually saw his body and I saw this trajectory of the bullet that went through a water tank that was in front of the window. So I can see that the that bullet was shot from the air. And I saw that personally, so, Those helicopters came in
firing. Now. It is illegal to use helicopters to get civilians in the United States of America. Unless, under the Posse Comitatus Act. Unless you can prove, there's a drug Nexus of some kind. So, they said that the people inside Mount Carmel, had a methamphetamine manufacturing plant, which was a blatant total. I we didn't we didn't even drink we drank once every six months and it was three beers maximum. So, haha. That's what you do. When the when the Davidians have
a party. That's it is three bears maximum eat. So it's like you're absolutely were no drugs at Mount Carmel. I made you this, you know, they're undercover guys. Robert Rodriguez came to came to know that the people pretty well. Robert actually told his superiors. Look, I've seen no signs of illegal activity. We need to stop this raid from going forward and they chose to anyway, that's what I love about the government.
They don't even listen to their own people, the people they pay and higher to go in and get the The damn information they don't even listen to them. How as an agency to do. You not listen to your people on the ground when you have that many lives at stake. How do you how serum these people in okayed this rate? How do you okay, an attack on women and children sitting in their beds and you shoot at them for 45 minutes? What kind of people are you really? It makes me angry.
It's just ridiculous. It goes on and on and on with these people and then they lie about it, they say, A all the Davidians fired first, it was an ambush. It wasn't an ambush. They know damn. Well, it wasn't an ambush and frankly after 25 years. I'm sick of having to talk about the same crap and have no result whatsoever. You know, it took, I took a six part series being made for people to finally turn around and say, hey, maybe something else happened on Mount Carmel.
And I'm not aware of, I've been talking about this stuff in 25 years, man. And you know, what all these ATF, guys and FBI, guys, they get their pensions, they get to live their nice lives and get the vacation, anytime they On, they're all retired. Now, instead of getting punished. They got friggin raises and promotions, you know what the people that survived here. Got seven years in jail, most of them on a weapons violation, the jury throughout no less. I'm renting a little today.
This is actually a fun day. I'm glad we did this in the morning because for some reason, I feel particularly good about this. But to tell you the truth, I don't seriously man. I mean, they got, you know, seven years on weapons violation that the jury throughout the judge, came back in and said, oh, I'm gonna add the weapons. Even back in and give these guys 40 years. Finally, finally. It went to the Supreme Court.
It took seven years to get to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court unanimous decision said it's one of the worst rulings they've ever seen in all their days. That's Judge Walter Smith. I'll say the name. Again, judge Walter Smith is guilty of one of the worst rulings of all time. And it was in the Davidian case and he did it to protect the government. They've been protecting themselves from day one.
They shot into the building on the last And they will deny that to their dying day, but I got to tell you all these agents out there, if there's an ancient listen to this. Why don't you come to Mount Carmel? And talk to me and talk to some of the people out here and apologize for what you did? Why don't you tell us? What really happened at the back of the building? If you're one of those forces if you're one of the guys that know, why don't you come forward?
You killed a bunch of kids. You guys, gassed a bunch of women and children to death, that is gonna bother you. So if you guys, you know, if you want, do the right thing and come forward at this point in history and be on the right side of History, I highly. Recommend you do. So because you know what really sucks is going to be being on your deathbed and thinking about CS gassing a bunch of kids and
realizing what you really did. Why don't you have the once you have the nuts to stand up now and be a man and tell people what you really did at Mount Carmel, because frankly, I'm sick of it dude. I'm sick of 25 years of everyone thinking that the people inside set that fire and that they shot each other at the final stages. You know, what? Maybe some people worship, maybe some people were trapped and they shot themselves to escape a fire out.
Blame, the only reason I came out of the building is because I didn't want to burn to death. I thought I figured the force is shooting me would be a much better thing. But I'm telling you, I am pretty sure there was fully automatic weapon, fire the back of that building, that was coming from the outside forces into the building.
And I also on that infrared. I've noticed two explosions at the back of the building and the gym area were one of the fire begins with just the one of the Three Fires. Begin at the back of that building. Now, there were three we found for protecting devices and the evidence Locker in Austin Texas, the investigator Mike McNulty who was doing the Rules of Engagement, which is an
excellent documentary. I highly recommended, it was nominated for an Oscar. It features the flare tape at the end and you can see the fully automatic weapons fire, which the government says, is sunlight reflection. And to this day, they swear by it sunlight reflection. When I see it. I see something very, very different. It's much more Sinister. So okay, you know, that's my rant. I will go back to the questions. I got. We Basically, we just cover the entire thing in that one.
Little question of yours. And again, I'm sorry, I slept really well last night. I feel like I'm on fire this morning. I'm glad we didn't do this last night. No problem at all. So, I want to be clear, so they could. So David was the only name on the arrest warrant, right? Whatever arrested him while he was jogging, or while he was at a bar named Chelsea's. You went through that on Mance rayder show. I don't want you have to go through that again. What I know about or how about
what he shooting guns with. The agents. Yeah, pretty good story. That's a pretty good time to rest him right there. Three guys alone them and I'm firing range, shooting guns. They Canada, my gun, my friend, not only did they not arrested him. Think about that. The ATF handed, the notorious the, the Criminal Mind that Mastermind even Crush, they handed him a firearm and shot with him. Think about that. This is guys are scared of. This is guys are investigating who has their enemy a gun.
I just it blows my mind when I sit down. I think about that. So I just want to be clear according to a book. No more Waco's by David Capel and Paul Blackman. They said David koresh. Invited the ATF agents into the compound. Is that what happened? Okay, here's what hit look. Kind of. Yes, actually, yes, because the undercover agents came over every day. Robert Rodriguez came over every day for about a month.
Yeah, he got to know the people he said and done studies with David. He often sat in the foyer Rodriguez actually brought over a gun that he said he bought at a okay. He said he bought it at a what was it, a gun show and the David put the gun in part. Took it apart and less than like 30 seconds right in front of Great. I saw the look on his face. Was Ultimate surprise, David took this kind of party. I was telling her that he goes. Look at that there, Robert the,
the trigger here. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how guns. Honestly, the inner workings of firearms, but he said, the trigger here's been filed down. So that made a full auto. He was this an illegal firearm, Robert. And I wish you wouldn't bring that over to my house because that's illegal Firearms. So I hope you. You should have known what you were getting here and I would take that back. Because that's illegal motion of the proper yellow sheet and he actually was schooling.
The ATF guy. So he was well aware of what was going on there and that Robert was trying to bait him basically, but yes, the answer is yes, they were invited in and they did they were in the they came into Mount Carmel. Several times. I can't even count the amount of times. They weren't at Mount Carmel.
So in episode 3 of the show that is based on your book, 20 minutes in, it shows that there's a blockade of the compound after the February. The eighth grade and they actually shoot and kill one of the husband's trying to come in to see his wife. Did that happen? Yes, it did. That was Michael Schroeder. Michael Schroeder was working at a another business that was owned by David called the Mag Bag. It was, you know, I was basically just a, it was a, an
auto kind of auto repair place. It was a garage. That's what I'm trying to say. And he was working there, of course, you know, his wife, and his kids were in in Mount Carmel. So, which was trying to sneak back in that evening? And I guess there was, he was with two other people who are captured. But for some reason, when Michael was a firefight or at least they shot him, but the bottom line is, he was his cap that he had a cap on the cap disappeared.
It wasn't into evidence and he was shot at close range. He was shot execution-style in the back of the head and the autopsy report showed that there was no gunpowder residue. So it couldn't have been. The short range is what they tried to say, but his cap was missing. I'm looking for this one. There's always something. Whenever all these experts, I swear to all these phds that they all out. I call it piled higher and deeper as what PhD stands for as far as I'm concerned.
Because all these experts, they just have a much better way of expressing. How a certain thing could not have taken place. Yeah, if you're going to take the guys cap off, of course, there's not going to be gun residue, you dumbass. Gasps sorry dude. But again, it's 25 years of this crap, the cover up the that's been going on here. They take the guys cap on when they say. Oh, there's no gun residue. So therefore the ATF could have shot him at close range.
They did shoot him at close range and I am so sick of these people covering their ass. That's all it is. Is cover your ass cover, your ass, cover your ass, cover your ass. You know, these people are commit, they shot 45 minutes, a bunch of women and children on the second story of the and that's I can't believe one of the kids wasn't killed. That's a miracle in itself. Now, according to what this is, another tactic of smearing other
people. There was like, the babies in incubators lie in the Gulf War. There was the babies on bayonets in World War one and Janet Reno has the baby's being beaten, which according to her testimony. She later. Redacted, according to the New York Times was that the ultimate justification Reno having those words being able to go in on April 19th. No, I mean, is it a justification? Maybe for them? Oh, yeah.
Yeah, that's all the head. Well, that's like George Bush, saying there's weapons of mass destruction weapons of mass destruction. So we need to go invade Iraq, you know their wow, you know, it's funny how America was supposed to be so intelligent and so, I don't know, you know, she must be so proud of our freedom, how we really like
going to war. That's what it seems like because we allow people People lie to us and allow an amazing Force to go in and just wipe out a bunch of friggin Farmers. That's basically, you know, when we're going into war, the majority of people were killing us civilians at this point, especially in something like Iraq, we defeat their military forces very quickly and then it's just it's just chaos man.
It never it never ends this you know, as long as that we shouldn't be going to other places killing people, but let's get back. I'm getting sidetracked. Let's get back to the point Janet Reno know that, Wasn't a justification as far as I'm concerned. The kids weren't being beaten. Some of the kids were spanked and everyone knows that a lot of religious groups, spare the rod spoil, the child, and spanking, the children for thousands and thousands of years. It's a form of punishment.
Personally. I don't spank my kid. I don't want to terrorize my child and some people grab me, some people don't, but a spanking is a spanking. I do, I would say that the kids here were incredibly well-behaved, you could take him out to They didn't act like little jerks running all over the place. They were incredibly well-behaved. They were good kids. There were happy kids. They had home schooling. They went to school every day here. They played together.
They share together. They were, I saw just wonderful children here. So okay. I didn't think nothing. Nothing in there was no, I didn't see any child abuse over that way. Okay, and I saw the evidence of the way, the parents were raising the children. And It seemed to work here. So that being said, the only people that beat the children was the federal government and they didn't beat the kids. They gassed, the kids. They use CS gas, which by its own manufacturer, is a riot control agent.
If you read them in the manufacturer's instructions, that's a riot control. Agent to only be used Outdoors, never indoors. Never inside a building CS gas is Powder. The way that it spreads is through methylene chloride. The delivery method is methylene, chloride. Guess what's methylene chloride is used in paint thinner. Methylene chloride is flammable folks and that's the delivery method for CS gas.
Now, CS gas is a powder. What happens when you have subatomic particles floating through the air together. It causes that. It's it can cause an explosion. I'll give you an example. A grain silo. It's the some atomic particles of dust in a grain sauce. Silo. That can cause it to if it catches fire to go up like a fireball, it's the same thing with cs gas. That's why whenever CS gas is used in the building. There's five or six different examples. The building catches fire folks
boy again. It's just yeah, you know, I know a lot of people will probably your audience. Some of them are younger and probably hearing this for the first time. I just been saying it for 25 years. It's like it's cool. The Cs gas. Right control agent only be used indoors outdoors and they used a two-day supply of Cs gas and six hours. They were frustrated because of the high winds and we would open the window.
And a lot of the high winds were blowing, a lot of Cs gas out of the other window in the chapel are where I was. I can only speak for my area. I don't know what's going on. The other area. I can tell you one thing though. All the women and children were put in a the walk-in cooler, which had survived the fire in the 50s. They were all put in there under wet blankets to try to. It was the only place they had to go, the one, the tanks went through the building on April 19th.
They blocked off the The Escape that led to the underground bus. They actually collapse the wall. On top of that, they went through the, where I was the chapel area and I saw the Tank come through the front doors and move the doors backwards. I Can't Describe to your listeners. What? It's like. To watch your front door, come at you and have to jump out of the way because the tank has come through your front door and
moved it into the living area. I can't really describe what that's like, but I got to tell you, it's absolutely horrifying. And then they went into the center of the building. They put a big hole in the center of the building of all the way back to where the walk-in cooler was and I have pictures of this at Mount Carmel that I show towards groups that come here. And so they went all the way back to where the where the women and children were in the
walk-in cooler. They put a turn in there and they delivered on a massive amount of Cs gas and actually the tank driver said that he delivered a massive amount of Cs gas in the walk-in cooler. That's where the women and kids were they literally suffocated the kids too. So CS gas, what's the fire started CS gas? When it burns off, it burns into cyanide, believe it or not. You can everyone can look this up for themselves. If you don't believe me CS gas Burns in the cyanide.
Some of the kids had such a high high tracings of cyanide poisoning, their bloodstreams that had caused their, their their muscles to contract and Bo backwards and a couple of the children autopsy report showed that Not only, let's talk about the beatings again, you know, who else beat the kids? The tag, when the tank hit the top of the structure, some of these huge chunks of concrete fell in on them and crush them to death. Some of the kids died of blunt
force, trauma. The blunt force trauma is from chunks of concrete, hitting them. When the report came out the justice department report came out, they got on there, they get on the national news and I remember watching this again on the Nationals and they said our report will find and the Moments of the Branch Davidian conflagration, the Davidians beat, and stabbed their children to death. They said that we beat our kids to death. That's how they spun.
It SP when they spun it, the spinner. The the way that they win, the media war is my spin. We don't Spin and spin is lying when they're spinning something they're lying to you. So they will get you to agree to what they're doing. Again. It's that. It's that the Sir Henry Clay quote that the denounces it B victims, exciting, the public hatred so they can conceal their own abuses encroachments.
So they can conceal the evil that they've done to the place and the people here and they turn it all around and make the people here look like they're some kind of demons. Frankly. I'm sick of it. The people that died at Mount Carmel. Was some of the best people I've ever known and they just didn't they didn't deserve the rap that they've had for the last 25 years. So, you know what? Yep. I'm sick of it. These people. Get away with it.
Is time for them to go to jail. If not, if they're not gonna go to jail. They need to live with your conscience and they need to know what they did. You killed you gassed and killed a bunch of kids way to go Federal forces way to go you tough guys. You guys have claimed that you're there to save people. You guessed a bunch of kids to death of. You're blaming it on us. I'm sick of it. Shame on you. They're okay. I'm good. I'm off my soapbox know.
Yeah. Well, Bill Clinton said Reno shouldn't resign just because some Some religious Fanatics decided to murder themselves. Yeah. I'm I want you to go through some of the propaganda used to dehumanize, the Branch Davidians II know you got into it there but is that the extent of it? Oh, no, they changed the wording completely, you know, there's was that I was watching
recently. Oh, I just watched the movie Vice about Dick Cheney, which is very interesting because they did the same thing with them global warming. They call it climate change instead of global warming because climate change sounds better, you know, these are kind of things. These words that are in our vernacular. Now used over and over by the media. On purpose, the directly use this so they can spin things in our case.
It wasn't a tank that was going through the front door, but it was a CV because the tanks had to It's taken off and it was a cev. Well, guess what? Right here at Mount Carmel. You guys come check out Mount Carmel someday. I have a picture of a tank, a Bradley Fighting Vehicle with the turn on it in front of the burning building. So there were tanks here again. Just another lie. So the tank was the cev, instead
of a sniper. They didn't have a sniper to sniper position, but he was a forward Observer. So they call the sniper forward Observer. What are some of the other ones? Of course, Firearms, your weapons. If it suits him, if it's had some on the other side of their firearms. One of my favorites is when they throw a flashbang grenade in a flashbang. Grenade. Doesn't explode. Okay, it performs a rapid expansion of gases. That's what they call an explosion. In other words, pyrotechnic
device. It doesn't explode, but it performs a rapid expansion of gases. That's literally how ridiculous it gets. Goes on and on. Now, in the show. They say that you married. David's wife. Did that happen? It actually didn't happen. I'm pretty on the book. I talk about this pretty succinctly. It was kind of mentioned. That we should get married to try to kind of keep the forces at Bay for a little while longer, while he was working on
some stuff. And who asked, frankly, you know, Dave was very, very deep individual and I learned a lot of things from him. I learned the Seven Seals from him, but that's the one thing in my two years of knowing the guy that he asked me to do that. I never felt right about and I did it just because it was my group. I want to protect the group and I want to protect Michelle and serenity. So yeah, we said we were married but we didn't have the wasn't actually Yeah, they call it.
There wasn't a ceremony. Yep. There wasn't a ceremony. It was nothing. Like it was in the film and the film that made, it was this big ceremony and we had, you know, we had parties like that where everyone got together and dance, but it wasn't the sir. I wasn't like a wedding ceremony or anything like that, but it's just kind of how it worked out and was that because she was underage when he was first with her.
Yes. Okay. There is a really interesting part in the Documentary, where the lawyers actually come in and they say, look at that door. Look at that ceiling. You guys have a great case, talk to me about what it was. Like when the lawyers came into the compound during this 51-day Siege. Well, for me is actually very exciting to have people that, I guess our representatives of the system, even though they're your
defense attorneys. They're still, we are Ward's of the Court there, still people that are I guess, look, highly upon There are testimonies, especially zags, Jack's Zimmerman. Who was a he was a, he was a veteran. He was a veteran. I'm not sure. I can't remember what brand she was in. But you know, these people saw the evidence is that we had been talking about. They were able to cooperate that with us.
That was great. I remember feeling feeling very hopeful that they had come in and I'm surprised actually that more wasn't done. I am at that point. I wish David would have listened to them and said, okay, we got a good case. We should take it, take it there, and I'm really hard on. Government did did here because yes, they gasp kids and they blame it on us. They're the ones against the kids.
But you know what? I in doing the research for my book and being an honest, rational thoughtful individual, I have to say David koresh made some mistakes. He made some mistakes along the way. Absolutely. I think at the point that the attorneys came in. He should have considered going out more. I know that he wanted to wait until the Seven Seals were written down.
I get that and that's a plan that came after the attorneys and come in. In but I felt very hopeful with the attorneys testimony and telling us that we had a pretty good case that we should go that route. And I think I think Steve did as well. Anyway, David chose not to go that route. I wish he would have I consider that a mistake on his part frankly. Now when I watch Rules of Engagement, they said that the front door of the compound that was brought into evidence is still missing.
Is that true? Yeah. Oh, yeah, there's two double doors. And there were metal doors. The one with the most bullet wounds coming from the outside in. And you could see clearly that there was that all those bullets were coming from the outside. And that's one of the things dick deguerin testified to I think at the Congressional hearings. They were asked for those doors or knows. I'm sorry, excuse me. No. Yawning early morning on the two
doors. One of them was entered into evidence and the other one was Isn't and when they were, they were asked where that second door, was. That was the door that all the bullet holes in it. The FBI said, oh, that must have disintegrated in the fire, a metal door. Its twin door. Was there entered into evidence? The other door wasn't so it it didn't disintegrate. The fire. It was hidden. It was, you know, I always think of that scene. I always think about her.
Sorry, guys. Can you still hear me? Yes, I can. Sorry. I had a call coming. I was thinking Scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark that last scene where they're taking the Ark of the Covenant, put it in some big Warehouse in the middle of nowhere, you know, some giant huge government Warehouse. That's probably not the case, but that's just the kind of a funny little visual. So yeah, you know, I mean, I'd love to go to that warehouse where all this stuff is hidden.
But yeah, definitely I think they yeah, they hit it that that door didn't disintegrate in a fire is ridiculous. Yeah, because as the guy was saying in Rules of Engagement, if that's where the shooting started. And there's He's only shooting going in. Well, then that's pretty much against their case, and it made it seem like, that's what the lawyers were saying in the show.
Yes. Now, one thing that I learned in this is that 23 people actually left the compound during The Siege. Another words far from being held down against their will. There were 23 people who left now, if I'm looking at this as an observer, I say, okay, right. Or wrong ATF. It doesn't matter. Just come out. And this could have ended peacefully, how do you respond to people who say that?
Jamie just come out or yes. Some people did come out during the Seas. Like you said Cromwell that is what other people people would be coming out and then they would put the pressure on. Okay now we got some, let's get them all. Bring them all out an hour or there's going to be a consequence and our attitude was like, listen people are coming out, negotiating's are going harmoniously. Why are you putting the pressure
for everyone to come on? Not everyone's going to come out now and you're scaring us and then they'll be like a will show you and the tanks. One of the property and run over one of the vehicles or they would tip over the 500 gallon gas tanks that we had on tripods near the building. They would tip those override sit there and watched the fuel pour out onto the ground. Next to the building. I saw that happen. So it's just amazing.
I mean, this is this their forces that every time, things will go harmoniously, they would put pressure on and that would cause a mistrust and people would back off. People didn't want to go out to that. Nobody. Want to go out that that kind of aggression, you know, the agents would sit on the tanks and moon us and they would give us the finger and moon us. And these are the kind of forces that are asking us to come out. No. It's just, it's ridiculous.
And it's something that people understand every day during the scenes. There was a There was a press conference and during the press conference has, sorry. I need to drink water during the press conference has the government would be like, oh, the cult this, the cult that David koresh is just Bible Babble and God's talking, all they did was demonize the people inside instead of saying, oh, we had a really, you know, really good conversation with David and
treating him as a person. Treating the people, there's people, they kept calling us, this called, this cult is called, that's called, that's called, that's called over and over, and over. So it's like they're just painting the picture for the American public. They want to paint while trying to tell us that they have our best interests. Can you imagine that their town, you imagine someone telling you that they really want to help you and they want to make sure all you guys get out.
Okay, and that, you know, they're here to help you. And then that same person goes, it doesn't press conferences. All these, these cult members, and they're really being unreasonable. They're saying, oh you guys are just come out. We really want to help you. Hey, these this cult here these Guys are a cult and this cult on the cult and the divinium call him David crush, the co-leader
over and over and over again. So, they would say one thing to us, and then they would say the on Direct opposite or another, think the American public that one on, for 51 days. Guess what? Guys that's going to cause a massive amount of distrust. Let me give you a bottom line. Okay, if you don't mind, I think. I got to be careful here. No one wants to look at it this way, but I'm going to throw it out there. I think that spiritual things took place here and everything.
David said was going to happen came to pass. Now. He told he said to me, six months before this raid and this is member. This is 93 tanks and helicopters had never been used against American citizens before my father. As a history teacher retired. So history has been in my life. I have studied the Constitution. I have studied the the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, the causes thus for both Vietnam World War One, World War Two. I'm pretty good understanding of this stuff.
Even at a young age. I was on a roof with David and he said, what are you gonna do tips when their tanks running up and down the W Ranch Road? I said David, I don't care what you're doing or what you think you're doing or how bad you think you are. Or what the government the big bad government is going to come in on us because you're teaching the Seven Seals. And that's the way that he looked at it but because he was teaching the Seven Seals.
The message will be fought against and destroyed. I said, they're never going to use tanks on this property again citizens. Six months later. I'm watching. Tanks, go up and down the W Ranch Road. He told Kathy Schroeder. Kathy. What are you gonna do? When? There's helicopters buzzing the building? Kathy Schroeder said the same thing. Dave, they are never going to use helicopters against this group of people. It's not how it's done here in America.
Six months later. There are helicopters, buzzing the building. As a matter of fact. The worst case of my PTSD was after everything happened. I got back to me and I would hear a helicopter. And next thing I know I would wake up and I would be under the bed. Every time I heard a helicopter. I would kind of blackout and I would open my eyes and I would be under the bed. So for some reason that was the triggering thing was a helicopter helicopter.
Always made me hit the floor and look for cover. That was just a very weird reaction, but it happened to me a couple times before I get used to the fact that okay. That's just a civilian helicopter, and I'm not in a war zone anymore. Yeah, so your question. Absolutely absolutely. So I didn't notice that I'm going on for these tangents that I don't know if I'm actually answering your questions. Well, yeah.
So, um, I have a source that says after the fire and ATF agent put the ATF flag on the Branch Davidian. Pull did that happen? Yeah, but it wasn't just the ATF flag. It was the ATF flag and then above that. As the Texas state flag and above. That was the American flags. They put three flags on the pole. Like he'll they'd want a war. Yes. So, here is episode 5 of the of the Waco show.
Now, you're watching it. And you're like, okay, if you didn't have any history, why are they obsessing over these people? All right. There was a firefight that, but whatever, just move on. Why are you spending all this time? And all this energy and here's and money. Yeah. And here's what. Here's what the show says. The FBI agent goes five thousand to On those are the odds against us. 5,000 people to everyone
officer of the law. You know, how we keep order with those eyes because people believe we're more powerful than we are. We project strength and the people believe in that strength, when we sit outside a place like this for weeks on end, waiting for them to Tire. We look weak in front of the west of the world and every a hole with a bomb kit, starts getting ideas. This is more than a situation. Now, Gary. This is a symbol. Are we the kind of agency that
cottle's Cop killers. Do you think that is the mentality that was included into them which allowed them to justify the atrocities that took place at Mount Carmel. Certainly sounds, right. I mean, it has a ring of truth. I hear certain things that has that ring of Truth or that or that flat sound that rings to be not true. That has a ring of truth to it to me. Yes. It wasn't for sure. No, I don't know for sure. But the attitude that I get from these guys, is a lot of them were very good.
Football players in college. That didn't make the pros in a really pissed off about it. They're just a bunch of Macho guys that want to use their toys and they got an excuse and they're taking a going to take full advantage of it. That was the attitude when you're on a tank and you know, there's a bunch of women and a bunch of old ladies and a bunch of kids in the building. And you pull your pants down, spread your butt cheeks apart. That's the kind of mentality,
you know, man. That's not a professional. That's not professional guys. You're the FBI and I don't care. If you're the leader of the FBI or a hostage Rescue Team, guy or negotiator. There's a certain amount of professionalism and probably mooning a bunch of kids and giving him the fingers and the most professional thing you can do. You look like a disgruntled College. You look like an idiot when you do crap, like that. And you need to be called on it.
So here, I'm going to call you. I saw it. I'll call you on it. You did it, you guys? Yeah, it just makes me crazy. These are the forces. These are the people that we look to. And that's the thing. You know, the FBI, they're good at what they do when it comes to getting bank robbers. And, you know, they have protected the American people on many occasions from some disasters that could have taken place. So it's not like they're not good at their job. Jobs, but they're really good at
their jobs. So when little brother screws up, big brother knows how to use the words to justify the actions of little brother and I think that's kind of what has happened here. Sure. Um, yeah, I just thought that was an interesting insight into the mindset of, oh, that's what the average that's what's going through their minds. Because it's rough to, you know, sympathize with, you know, with them during this thing. What were your overall? Thoughts during the
negotiations. Were you happy? Did you think one side was getting wrong? Did you think they were stubborn? People? Did you think there was a really good thing that could have happened but didn't follow through. What were your general thoughts during the negotiations? Yeah, there were times of negotiators. Negotiations were going. Well. I think that we worked well with Gary and maybe I think there's one or two other negotiators.
That David actually liked but they would often they would Take like I said there would take them off and put someone else on you. No didn't work. So well with David or maybe it was more confrontational and they were trying different things and I wondered why they would I always wonder why would they do that? Why would they take the person? That was working? Well with us off the case, unless they wanted the place, the outcome that they ended up getting, which is Place burning
to the ground. Let's face it. The government benefited from the place, burning to the ground. I'm sorry, but they benefited from it all the Wounds in the ceiling from the helicopters, the bullet holes in the doors and you know, who's not to say that this evidence wouldn't have still disappeared. The problem will still disappeared even if the place had stood, but it would have been better for us at the place,
stood. At a definitely benefited the government for the place not standing and burning to the ground. So, I mean, you know, I think that's true. That's a true statement. Absolutely. Now, here is from episode 6 of the series of Radio broadcasters as the FBI and branch. And each claim the other started the fire, and we may never know the truth. Now, before that Bill Clinton is the one that was him, who said, just because some religious Fanatics decided to murder themselves, Reno should not
resign the guy in the show. Then says we may never know the truth. So instead let's talk about what we do, know fact, Fresno, California 1973, a standoff with law enforcement ends, when tear gas turns to fire killing those inside fact, Los Angeles. For standoff between SLA and law enforcement ends, when tear gas turns to fire killing those inside West Fork. AR Arkansas, 1981 a standoff. Tear gas fire, Death 1983, Smithfield, Arkansas. 1985,
Philadelphia, 1987's. Ganado, California, all of them, standoff tear gas, fire Death. The FBI knows this and get made no plan to put out the fire. If it started, you think that everyone inside Ed was murdered intentionally. Murdered intentionally. Okay, that's Wow, yes or no. Here's why I say that. I don't think that every FBI agent one of the outcome of what happened at Mount Carmel.
I think I think a lot of the agents on the ground had no idea what was going on. I think the agents on the ground, didn't know what CS gas to do a building if it was used inside. I could tell by the two FBI agents that I came in contact with After exiting the building. Doing when the place is burning. And they're looking frantic and scared. And I see the fear in their eyes from the place burning and the the kids literally dying that they were horrified by that. I saw that.
So, you know, I don't think that that that's the outcome that they wanted but I think that the people that were making the decisions that they knew what was going to happen. Why else would you put the huge holes in the building causing an oxygen flow system? But wrecking the building and having the tanks go through. They, that's what they did. They, that building was ready to go up like a, like a pot-bellied stove is some of the analogies that have been used.
The amount of Cs gas, use awesome. Why would they have peritectic devices in their period? There were four pyrotechnic devices that were found if you don't want that building to go up. Why would you what's the word invite the controversy by having Pirates? Devices in the round. As a matter of fact, they denied it for years. And then finally they had to say. Oh, yeah. Well, we did have pyrotechnic devices in there. But the Branch Davidian still
started the fire. Let's talk about one more thing to let's talk about the audiotapes of the people saying. Spread the fire like this, put some there, put some there. Do that. You've heard this. Most people have heard, this has been on was featured on the NPR documentary about Ruby about Oklahoma City. And that's when they brought that in.
I don't that just blows my mind because when I they played those tapes for me when I was sitting before the grand jury, and I couldn't tell what was being said and then they gave me something that they typed down that said, Start the Fire do this through to put some here and there trying to tell me that, that's what's being said on the tapes and I'm like, that's not what I heard. I heard cut the power, not like the fire when I listened to the tape.
In the headphones, they're playing it for and then they would say well, why would they see cook the power and I'd say I don't know maybe because the Jenners did the generators. I don't know. But that's what I hear. Now. Here's what troubles me about to take. The FBI says that those tapes were taking at 6 a.m. The day of the fire that those recordings where they're saying spread some here. Put some here are taken at 6:00 a.m. If those tapes were taking the 6 a.m.
And why did the fire not start till six hours later? 12:00. So in the fire starter people inside set that fire and those tapes prove that they set the fire, then why did it take six hours from the fire to start number one and they are. This is their own. I mean, this is the FBI had never said. Those tapes are taken at 6 a.m. I think their case would have been more compelling but they said they say the tapes were
taken at 6 a.m. And then when they're asked, well if you knew that the Davidians were spreading fuel. Why did you go forward with the raid? And then they said, we didn't know that we couldn't hear what was being said, until we got the tapes back to our labs and Virginia and scrubbed them. The FBI terms scrubbed. They had to scrub the tapes to find out what was being said. Now, if anyone has seen, there's movie that I think it's really
good. It's called Primal colors the world, John Travolta, and it's Loosely based on the Clinton campaign. There's a scene in there where Basically, through audio manipulation. They make Larry King. Sounds like he's hitting on hitting on a woman when he's just ordering a, when he's getting one. He's just calling. And getting a reservation. It's an interesting scene because it shows how easily audio tapes and cell phone Communications can be manipulated.
And that was back in the 90s that this movie came out. I believe was the 90s. So that was before all the kind of Technology. We have. Today is very easy to manipulate phone conversations and recordings and things like that. My accusing them of that. No, I think that it's entirely possible. However, I don't know for sure if that's what they did. But they did say that they had to take their tapes, back to the lab in the scrub them. That's their words, not mine.
So I think it's definitely important to get this message out. And as you said, it's been a rough 20-something years doing it. I'm curious, you talk. I don't want to know if it's not. I'm not sure if I should have it coming from you, but I'm the average person does think ATF just went in just walked in you guys started shooting. There was a 51-day standoff and then when they came in, you said, you know what? Before they get us, we're going
to light ourselves on fire. That's that is the general consensus. What is your elevator pitch to someone? Who has that idea? And you want them to think differently about what happened?
Just look at the facts, man. All you gotta do is do a little research, find out, if half of think about it, half of the things I've said in this interview a true, you guys should be scared out of your mind, you know, you guys should really review the way, the things that you're that you That the media to the things you believe from your press and from your news agencies. You should be terrified because you know what? You are being lied to hunt a
daily basis. And if you don't see that, then you kind of deserve what you get, because you're living in your ignorance, everything. I say to you, everything I've presented. I believe to be true, 100% everything I presented. I present because I have pictures. I have the Audio. I thought about it. I've seen the things. They say and I know what the truth is because I was there. I'm not sick. Look, I'm not getting rich doing
this guys. This is that I would much rather be playing drums with ab and then doing this and having to talk about this. But I am just I got to tell you the older I get and the more these documentaries that I come up that I see on TV that don't get the story, right? It makes me crazy when I see that a and a documentary and
it's really good. They're interviewing David koresh's Stepbrother. And he's talking about, you know, they're interviewing people that were involved and I'm like, oh my God, they're really getting the other side here and then they get to the end. And at the end they say, well, it's too bad. The people set the place on fire. They're still, oh my God, they're pretending to be unbiased but they're not, they're not talking about the
fully automatic weapons. Fire at the back of the building people being shot trying to escape. They're not talking about the explosions. We have on infrared video tape from the sources of one of the fires at the back of the building. Don't mention that. What they say is the people inside started the fire and it goes on and on, and on, and they're just not talking about the other side of, they're not talking about the reality of what really happened, and just
blows my mind. It's it doesn't end to this day. They're putting up till communication. You know, it's really funny. I'm not actually that you brought that up. I was thinking the other day about Byron Sage, who was it? Who was interviewed in that documentary? And he said, you know that there were during the fire. I don't understand why those people didn't bring out the children. One of the people brought out a dog, but not his own daughter
who died in the fire. That was very, that's just malicious and unfair. He's talking about Clive Doyle. Now, Clyde goes from the nicest, man. You'll ever meet in your life. Climbed all came out of the same hole. I did. He's in the same area of the building. I was in his daughter was in the other, are in the building the tanks, destroyed, any kind of Avenue of him getting to Cherry or me getting the serenity because I tried to and the tanks and Right. There was no way to get down the
hallway. It was impossible. You couldn't do it. A dog, followed Clive Doyle out of the building and out of the fire. Clive didn't bring the dog out of the fire. The dog was smart enough to get out and follow them and then Byron's Sage to say that why didn't know one bring out any children, you know, why Byron because you took a tank into the front of the building and you gasps them to death. You passed them to death, you gasps, those kids to death,
shame on you. Your Everlasting contempt to sit there and lie to the American public the way you Did the kids didn't come out because they couldn't, you guess them to death my friend and you blame us for it. Shame on. You Byron Sage. Oh, and incidentally, we have two pictures hanging up right now in the sanctuary here that show Byron Sage coming out and posing for a picture while the buildings burning in the background. Not one.
He said on National Television. Once I wasn't posing for a trophy picture, I came out and someone took that picture. He was very offended that someone will call him on it. I guess what we don't have one, but we have two pictures.
We have a picture of the place. Burnt starting, I would say maybe five minutes in 10 minutes into the burn, and then we have another picture of him posing in a different area where the with a building in the background, totally burnt to the ground so he didn't pose once but twice and then he's going to sit there and lie to me in light of the American public and say that he didn't pose for a picture. You want to play that game buddy. We got the evidence.
You come to Mount Carmel. You can see it for yourself. I'm sick of them, lying. So, the American public just lying and then, you know, calling me a liar. Whatever. Dude, you can say what you want. I got the truth on my side. I can live with myself buyer and Sage, all you hostage Rescue Team guys, you tough guys. I don't know how you can live with yourselves killing a bunch of kids, killing women and children. Whatever. I can I can look myself in the mirror. Shame on you again.
David's book is Waco. A survivor's Story by David Thibodeau. Last name spelled th ibe d.e.a. You. I got to its Bo D. Thi Bo D, Tau, B, 0 D, Tau, I'm sorry. It's called. So to softballs for you. Who is your favorite drummer of all time? Whoo, I 3 i 4. Yeah, I okay. I got did somebody Rich Neil Peart John Bonham and Akira Jimbo probably not in that order. But whatever. They're all pretty amazing.
Have you seen Neil Peart live? Oh, yes twice as phenomenal and I somebody Rich before he died, too. Yeah. Absolutely. Incredible. And what is your favorite Bible verse? Wow, dude, that's okay. I wasn't prepared for that. My favorite Bible verse, okay. I'm not going to be able to quote the source. Yeah, I could, if I thought about it. There's a, I have a favorite verse about.
The day will come when the children of God will be able to come to the Waters of life and they will be able to drink freely. And then that day when you can drink from the Waters of Life freely. It says God will take out your Stony heart and it will give you a heart of Flesh. And it says, once you have the heart of Flesh, you will weep for the person. You were in the sight of God during your lifetime. And you will weeping, you will mourn like someone morning their
only child for what a sitz. I'm paraphrasing here for what a scumbag. You were in the sight of God just being a sinner and it says you will mourn so much. You won't even want to be called by your name and I will give you a new name in that day. And that day, you will have a new name and you will have a new heart and you'll be a new person and you'll be like, I said, I'm paraphrasing, but you'll be my son. I'll be your father.
Everything will be great. You'll be made new and it says it will be in pot as it's my favorite scripture. It'll be as impossible for you to sit in that. Each day as it is for you to do righteousness. Now and I think that's pretty awesome.
God's basically saying you're going to screw up, you're a sinner, you're a scumbag and there's nothing you can do about it. And there will come the day when I will make you deal when you won't be able to sin, and will be as impossible for you to send as it is for you to do righteousness. Now, and I think that justifies all of mankind. I think that's just an amazing scripture. I think it's Jeremiah. I'll have to look it up. Have you met?
But I promise is the final one. Have you ever heard someone as good as let me turn my AC off. Give me just one second. Okay? Just want to let you know, you can find Waco, a Survivor Story by David Thibodeau in the link below in the description. Either them to Amazon. So, have you ever met someone as good as David at conveying the message? No, never never.
Actually, I'm glad you brought that up because I was super hyper aware of people that were teaching scripture, all the TV preachers, I would Stem, as a kid. And wonder why people didn't see through them. I would watch them as a kid and go, how could people send these guys their money. That's just so fake. And again, I hope I'm not offending. People would have sent money to TV preachers, but to be
interesting, very, very fake. When I were first moved to Hollywood. I would pass my went to music school out there in the Scientology building was right on the corner of my school and I would pass by every day and they go free personality test for a test. Would you like a free? Test and was God, I won't I'll never forget him and I'd be like, no, I don't have a personality pal. You know, we got Snappy little things, we would say to them and I just always saw through it.
A bunch of people showed up with, you know, like all the girls had the same skirts on, on the boys had the same shirts on and the same pants and I'm just like, wow, that's just. That's, you know, that's some kind of sect. I don't like to use the word help. But the point is, I was hyper sensitive because I didn't want to get involved in a cult or a group or religious. And even the Hari krishna's anything, you know, any of those groups. I just I didn't that wasn't my
thing. And so what I meant David and Steve at Guitar Center on Sunset Boulevard after we talked a little bit, they just said that they had some knowledge about the scripture. They didn't preach to me. They had ripped the Bible part from Genesis to Revelation. They really knew something about it. They treated it as a study and to me that's what was fascinating. They weren't saying just believe this or just believe that or you have To believe me.
It's like what does it say? They just approached it differently, and I thought that was interesting. So, and they actually interviewed a bunch of my friends went all of this first happened and they said, so did you ever see David David Thibodeau and a kalter in the group like this? And just about every one of the people that they interviewed that knew me said, Dave Thibodeau is the last person I ever saw ending up in a group like this. And that's kind of true.
You know, they like to make it sound like, oh, you're we were sheep and We had to be led and we were looking for a strong leader. That's may be the case in a few of the people, but certainly not the majority. When Martin was a harvard-educated attorney, Steve Schneider top comparative, religions the University of Hawaii, you know, there were other people. Most of the people that I knew here, were very, very
intelligent. Let me just put it that way and they didn't, they were not sheeple at all. Well, David, thank you so much for taking the time today. I really appreciate it. And thank you to everyone else for watching. Thanks, buddy. Appreciate it, man. Take care.