Affiliate Marketing: Why "Affiliate" Isn't a Channel Anymore with Lee-Ann Johnstone from Affiverse

You can burn a lot of money unnecessarily if you don't know what you're doing in affiliate, and you can waste a lot of time if you don't know what you're doing either. So it's not a channel that I would test. If you're going to do it, you need to get somebody either consults with you and tells you exactly how to set you up for success and cuts out any other time wastage, or you need to kind of go to the network and see how they help you to launch.

You're listening to the Keep Optimising podcast to increase your traffic, improve your conversion rates, and grow your profits. Hello and welcome. I'm Chloe Thomas, the host of this ecommerce marketing focused podcast. If you're not familiar with our format, every five episodes we switch our focus to a different marketing method like email or SEO or Facebook ads, and we pick up the thread from the last time we covered it with each episode and we release a new one.

Each Wednesday I interview a different expert to explore the latest advice on making it work for you. At the moment, we are all about partnership marketing. Through this mini series we'll be looking at influencer marketing and other forms of partnership marketing and in this episode we're looking at affiliate marketing. So this is all this series of episodes is all about building relationships to drive your sales and all the many, many forms that takes in the world of E commerce.

We've got the awesome Leanne Johnstone on. I met Leanne for the first time last year at her Elevate conference. Highly recommend attending that if you're in the UK this summer. Big meeting place of all the best minds in affiliate marketing and I've been super impressed with her content ever since.

She is a mine of useful information and in this episode she is going to be serving up a bit of a curveball, a bit of a prediction on what those who run the right and the successful affiliate affiliate marketing activity in 2025 will have done. And it's going to get you really thinking whether you haven't done affiliates yet or whether you are deep into running affiliate campaigns. It's really going to get you thinking about how you're going to get the most out of your activity this year.

So have a really good listen to that and make sure you listen right to the end of the episode because at the end Leanne will be sharing her Quick Fire insider tips to help you maximize the performance of it even more. And then I'll share a couple of extra ways we can help you too, so stay tuned to the end. In this episode, I'm chatting with affiliate marketing expert Leanne Johnston. Leanne is a global affiliate marketing strategist and the founder of center of All Things Affiliates, Affiverse.

She's also the host of the affiliate marketing podcast. Hello Leanne. Hello Chloe. It is an absolute pleasure to be here. I feel very privileged to be invited on your podcast. It is awesome to have you on the show too long in coming. So great to finally be able to tick the We've had Leanne on the show box before though we get into the juicy stuff you're going to be sharing with the listeners. How did you get into the world of affiliate marketing?

Because although it's a massive space, it's a bit of a weird one to be in, strangely. Yeah. And back in the days when I started, which was almost two decades ago and some years nobody even knew what affiliate marketing was. So I think most people fall into affiliate marketing accidentally. And my story is just the same. I round about when the Internet first started, I started to have a look at wow, you know, you can track things here.

And the thing that really made me excited was I was doing a lot of, you know, above the line media, you know, traditional advertising. And you really didn't know how a campaign was going to work until months later when the data came in or the sales increased. Whereas this was immediate. And I think I'm quite an impatient person. I thought, oh, that's very exciting. I can tell like within days, within hours whether something that I'm doing is really exciting.

And so I kind of fell into it accidentally through media buy, through online media buying. But what I realized about myself and my Persona is that I'm actually a really good people person. So I really enjoy being with and learning from other people. And so the transition out of media, paid media, into relationship building, which is really what affiliate marketing was, was kind of working with partners was like a natural transition for me. Sort of accidentally got into it over a period of time.

But yeah, since I've and I've never been able to leave, it's kind of like a boomerang din. And I never left. And here I am 25 years later still doing it. And it has been a wild ride like the affiliate industry from where it started when I first joined to where it is now, you know, a multi billion dollar industry and everybody that is in this industry is learning on the job. There's no like school of affiliate marketing that you can go and get a graduate degree in.

You're all learning on the job and the platforms and everything around you is changing at such a rapid pace that the job that I do today, as you know, an affiliate program manager is very different to the job and the tasks that I was doing 10 years ago.

So I think it kind of met my profile and you know, always kept me busy and learning new things, which is something that I was really passionate about and, you know, allowed me to kind of meet and be with people and build partnerships by valuing those relationships. Because it is still an industry that's very relationship led. I think that's the kind of like the first thing people get wrong about affiliates is they think it's like Google Ads or Facebook ads, but with marketing partners.

And it's like, no, no, no. Partners means you have to talk to them. These are actual relationships. But I know both of us could rant about that for a good hour or so. But there's another angle to affiliates you pitched me to talk about on this and we were talking about earlier, which I think is, is super fascinating. So let me open ask you a very open ended question, Leanne.

What is affiliate marketing in 2025? So it's quite a controversial question, but I'm going to try and answer it as best I can because it's something that I'm quite passionate about. We as digital marketers or online marketers, we think about channels. So there's the SEO channel, there's the paid media channel, there's the kind of keyword PPC channel, and then there's the social media channels and the beauty about working in affiliate marketing.

And also the curse is that affiliate is not a channel anymore. So it has evolved as the customer journeys have evolved, as the Internet has evolved, as all the different platforms that we now use to reach our audiences have evolved. And affiliate marketing is actually less of a channel and more of a payment mechanism and an amplifier.

So when you are thinking about, you know, starting an affiliate program for your E commerce business, you really need to start off with a question that asks yourself, why do I, why am I doing this? And is now the right time? Because if you're doing a lot of paid media and you've got a really good social media following and you're doing your PPC ads and you've got a SEO that's looking at your website. Have you tapped all of those sources out?

And now is the time to go and invest in and build an affiliate program which is going to take time. Money, resource. So another misconception about affiliate marketing it's free. It's not free. It costs you money to launch and start an affiliate program and also manage all of those partnerships. So I'm starting to think about affiliate as not being a channel that you become an expert in. It's more of a payment mechanism because you pay on performance. It's more of a partnership as well.

So it's about, does. Does this partnership actually meet the needs of the end goals, the KPIs? And it's also an amplification channel. So if you think about it, let's talk about paid media. Everybody's got finite budgets, okay? And your customer is not in one platform anymore. They're in different platforms at different times during the buyer awareness journey when they're looking for products to purchase online.

So really what you've got to ask yourself is, you know, what do I want affiliates to do for me? And then making sure that that affiliate program is actually augmenting what you're already doing in paid. So if you know that the start of the journey is Google, they're going to search for a product or service. You might want to be working with, you know, PPC keywords, doing some paid ads within the Google platform.

You might want to do some paid ads on, you know, channels like TikTok or Meta or whatever it is. But you can't reach everybody with your paid ad budget. Like, it's impossible for you to reach your entire global audience with just paid media. So what you then need to do to scale is you need to think about what other channels can I bring in. And affiliate is then very attractive when you're at that stage because it's a payment method and it's pay on performance.

So you can get affiliates to do that brand reach for you to push your products and talk about your products and educate consumers in all these different niches that they're operating in. And then you can pay them when the sale happens. So you're not paying them upfront for all of that brand equity that they're pushing behind the paid media channel. Now, that's just one story. I can apply that same story to what happens with social media when you're working with big ambassadors.

So big ambassadors are going to want sponsorship money traditionally. Now micro influencers who have authentic content, highly engaged audiences, they actually work on a performance basis. So when they find a product that they truly love and like, they will promote it in whatever social media channel they're in and they will actually augment your social media strategy and get paid on performance. When the sale Happens. So it isn't a channel anymore, just those two stories.

I mean, I can apply it to all of the differential ppc, all of it, but the same story applies.

Affiliate marketing is not a channel. It's now a payment mechanism and an amplifier for every other channel that you're currently working in. And it's the one model that I think is growing faster than any other digital channel. So some recent stats that came out in the UK late last year, they did a kind of look back with all of the affiliate networks and it's the only industry that has grown by double digit figures. So it's outstripped paid media even year on year. And yet nobody knows about it.

Nobody, like very few people know what affiliate marketing is. It's starting to change now because we talk about it a lot, but it's a $17 billion industry that has been growing silently in the background and has never been sexy or important or spoken about a lot. And a couple of big brands that have got in early have made bank with affiliate program. But the competition is now fierce.

So you've got to have a story behind why you are launching an affiliate program and whether it's the right time for your business and have a very clear strategy to get into that marketplace because there's only a finite amount of traffic for anybody to go and get on performance. And the interesting thing for me, I'm sorry, I know you asked me the question, but it's a long question, is how many major paid media publications are now moving into performance marketing.

So Forbes, Telegraph, like really, really big media publications, they're seeing the value and the longevity in working on a pay on performance basis versus just doing paid media. And they're accessing other budget channels within the same companies to actually increase their spend or increase their earnings. It is fascinating when you look back at how affiliates have evolved. And I'll be honest, until you said this shortly before we started recording, I hadn't thought of affiliates in this way.

But it makes so many of the affiliate challenges that I think about. You know, is it affiliates, is it influencers, is it partnerships? How does this fit together? You know, on TikTok, how are we creators? Are we affiliates? Are we doing this? Are we doing, how does all this work and the confusion of all of it. Actually when you start thinking of it as a payment mechanism, a cash flow improver, as a way of, of expanding your reach on a channel that already works, it makes so much sense.

And I think, I can only think it will also help people to work out how to deliver good affiliate marketing campaigns. Because I think the other thing which we've seen over the years is the number of businesses who've launched affiliates badly, paid the price of launching it badly, and therefore have never gone back to the channel and have blamed the channel or the marketing method.

Rather than blaming themselves for being bad at it, they turn it on like they think they could turn on Google Ads and they never do the optimization, they never build the relationships and then they discover someone's been stealing all their Google Ads traffic and you're just like, well, obviously, because you didn't invest in the channel, it's equally the same as just putting a terrible Facebook ad out there and wondering why your roas is appalling. It's not Facebook ads fault, it's your fault.

So do you think this type of marketing is going to help marketers, generalist marketers, make better use of affiliate marketing? Yes. I'll tell you why. And we're actually a victim of our own success in affiliate marketing because the technology has enabled everybody and anybody to open up an affiliate program. The technology exists for you to do a very basic integration into a Shopify, you know, any kind of e commerce platform and set up an.

I mean, some of the platforms even offer affiliate tracking, like as part of the platform. So they're enabling people that aren't experienced to open up a channel that they don't actually know how to manage and why they should be managing it, and then they fail. And that's not a negative thing. I mean, the enabling is great. You know, we're making it accessible for everybody. But. But being responsible, like, just because you can use it doesn't mean you should use it.

So being responsible with your strategy and understanding, is this actually right? For me? Yes, I can do it. Technically, it's easy to integrate and turn on. But what are the results of me doing that? Like, if I don't know how to manage and recruit affiliates and I don't know how to actually give them, and I'm not capable of giving them the content or the promotions or the automated processes that they need to succeed, you're actually creating a negative experience.

So, yeah, I think, you know, we've, we've been victims of our own success, but we also need to become responsible with how we use this methodology and get more tactical with it as well because it is getting more competitive. As I said, the industry has grown phenomenally year on year, which means the competition is growing year on year. So, you know, pick your poison and then think about how you're going to invest because your budgets are limited.

So is it now now for those who want to do it successfully, it's more a case of going, right, we could do with we've got lots of really passionate customers who want to promote us. Let's find a good way to reward them. We'll create an affiliate program as an ambassador program and that is our strategy for 2025 with leveraging the affiliate payment method is an ambassador one or to go. We want greater spread.

We know, we know meta ads drive us great roas, we want to do more, but we're limited in how much creative we can create. So we're going to do an affiliate program with influencers on Instagram. Is it that sort of focused strategic decision making?

Not just going we're going to do affiliates, but going we're going to do a big influencer campaign paid for via affiliate marketing methods on XYZ platform and we're going to take responsibility for recruitment, partnerships, relationship building and all the rest of it.

So we're actually moving beyond affiliate now.

The word affiliate is actually almost too small for what this movement, and I think that's what I'm going to call it now movement is because within the affiliate bubble, which is a very archaic word which actually really only refers to bloggers, SEO, content writers, but because the online space has just grown so massively over the last couple of decades, we now call it the partnerships economy because exactly as you just said, there are advocacy programs where your customers can become

affiliates and they need different things to what a full blown traditional affiliate would need. And the way that they want to be managed is completely different. So they want you to remember their birthday. A normal affiliate that you're paying commissions to, they don't care that you don't know their birthday. Do you know what I mean? They want to know how much tracking did I do, what converted, what didn't convert. I want the Postback data. You know, they're two very different individuals.

So within this partnerships economy, which is now like the Next like affiliate 3.0, call it that way, you've got, you know, affiliate, traditional affiliate, like SEO sites and bloggers and you know, content creators. You've got all of the influences, so micro and nano and you know, massive ambassadors as well. You've got the paid media drivers, so people that know how to find traffic, get it, convert it, you know, source it.

You've got the technical SEO and paid media, Google, PPC type guys, you know how to do paid media on generic search terms and Augment your business that way. You've got B2B partnerships, which is becoming a massive thing in the partnership economy where businesses partner with each other and cross sell together for a commission basis. So, you know, whether that's leveraging email newsletters or, you know, any kind of events, whatever it is.

And so this affiliate, what used to be called a channel and is now a payment mechanism and a movement has just mushroomed out like it can be anything and anyone. And, and I think that's also why we are the victim of our own success. Because to become a social media expert, you've got to learn the four or five big platforms. That's it. You've got to just learn those platforms. To be an SEO expert, you're probably really focusing on Google and Bing as your key places.

To be a paid media expert, you're focusing on the top media publishers and ad units and retargeting and a couple of other different things. And I'm not saying that they're not skills, they're all skills that go very deep. But as an affiliate program manager, you need to know all of it because you have to know how to manage all of it, track all of it and service all of it. So this partnership economy thing is becoming so big that it's impossible to be a traditional affiliate manager.

And what we're going to start to see is that businesses are going to have to specialize and drill down. So you see that in a lot of SaaS companies, they've got a partnerships team that do like the B2B partnerships and then they've got an E commerce team that also will kind of like run with, you know, straight up digital tracking. So I think it's a really.

And then you've got AI coming into the mix as well, which is also going to be a, you know, like, we're going to have to see how that comes out. I guess my cautionary tale is, you know, it's affiliates is great, but is it right for you and is it the right time and do you have the right expertise to actually manage it? Because otherwise, you know, just because the tech allows you to do the integration and the tracking of it doesn't mean that you're equipped to actually do it properly. Oh, so true.

Now you mentioned earlier, you mentioned tech. Then you mentioned earlier about, you know, you can have your own tech that sits on your site that you run your exclusive one, or you could go onto one of the big platforms, the awins. The. I'm worried, I'm going to say one that doesn't exist anymore. Now impacts, et cetera, et cetera. How does someone go about choosing whether they're going to build their own or whether they're going to be on the platforms?

Because they are wildly different opportunities, aren't they? I think if you're an E commerce business, you definitely want to be going on and you're new and you don't have internal expertise, you definitely want to be thinking about going onto an affiliate network for two reasons. One, it will give you access to a, like a marketable database of publishers that you can invite to join your program on day one.

So you're cutting out on the recruitment and the outbound selling part of launching an affiliate program. And two, it'll automate your processes and your payments. Because imagine, I mean, you know, we all hope for this. You launch an affiliate program and you get a thousand affiliates that sign up because they love your product. How are you going to pay them? Like have you got the payment infrastructure to actually go make a thousand individual payments at the end of the month?

Because everybody's earned $20. Like how are you going to support them? You know, how are you going to manage the database behind all of those people and understand how to actually leverage them and who to call and who to email and you know, all of that kind of stuff. So if you're small and starting out, you definitely want to look at a network and a network that specializes in whatever area you are kind of like selling in. So you know, different networks have got different areas of specialism.

Some specialize in travel, finance, e commerce, whatever it is. And then if you want to kind of self manage because you've got a digital marketer that understands affiliate marketing, you want to go down the SaaS route. So you want to have a plug and play platform that's recognized, you know, can do all of the tracking and then you invite the affiliates that you want to to work with into that program. So that takes a little bit more of the upfront resource and sales.

The SAS solution will still do the payments for you. It can do integrated payments, but it means that more of the resource time and energy is spent on finding and recruiting the right publishers in because the SAS tech won't give you the publishers, it'll just give you the mechanism to track the sale and the administrative functions. And then obviously there's a third option which is you hire an agency to hold your hand and do it for you.

This kind of done, done with you, done for you or done by yourself, which is probably the same as most other channels as well. So. And the one thing I would caution everybody listening to this is you can burn a lot of money unnecessarily if you don't know what you're doing in affiliate. Like the, the tech is cheap. You can get really good, sophisticated, you know, SAS tech. So if you, if you're tech savvy, that, that part is easy, although there are mistakes that you can make with tech as well.

But you can burn a lot of money if you don't know what you're doing and you can waste a lot of time if you don't know what you're doing either. So it's not a channel that I would test. Like, if you're going to do it, you need to get somebody who either consults with you and tells you exactly how to set you up for success and cuts out any other time wastage, or you need to kind of go to the network and, you know, see how they help you to launch.

So the network is always going to be kind of agnostic because they've got hundreds of similar customers to you. So they're never going to really give you the strategy of like, okay, step one is do this step to do that. They will help you with the technical integration, they'll help you with publisher recruitment, but they can't give you agnostic advice. Like they can't actually look at you and go, you're my client.

Because they've got thousands of other clients that are similar to you as well, or hundreds of other clients that are similar. So you really do need to think about your strategy when you launch as well. Like, how do you want to launch and is it a slow burn for you? So you're okay taking six to nine months to kind of figure it out, or does it have a necessity to actually grow your business, in which case hire an agency that specializes in it and. Or get the tech stack built in.

The other benefit with working with a tech stack is that it's obviously a little bit cheaper because you're not paying override fees to the agent, to the network, and you own your affiliates, whereas the network owns your affiliates. So you don't ever really own that relationship. You're just borrowing, you're renting it on a network. So, and both work, you can start on a network and as you get bigger, migrate out into a text. Like, you don't have to have everything ready on day one.

You can do a kind of soft launch and then get really serious about it once you've seen the opportunity, which is what most clients do. We need. You know, that evolutionary piece.

If you start off thinking you're going to be going after the big professional affiliates, then the bit that works so you go on a network and then the bit that works is your own client customer ambassadors, then moving to your own tech would make complete sense because it's going to be simpler and easier for those customers. I love the fact you mentioned about how it's very easy to lose a lot of money very quickly if you don't know what you're doing.

Because there's so much help and advice out there if you know where to look. But also it's people listening may be thinking, oh, but yeah, yeah, you can do that with Facebook ads, but you just turn it off and you go back a couple of months later and you'll be fine. The thing is, Facebook ads won't penalize you really. They're not going to hold a grudge for you turning off your ads.

The affiliates will hold a grudge because they've put in a load of effort, whether it's into creating an Instagram post or it's putting links and content on their website for you or anything else. If you suddenly turn that off, they've put a load of effort in. They're getting, they're driving traffic to it, possibly to still drive your sales even though they're not getting commission. They will hold a grudge and you will be set back massively.

So I think that that's another key thing you really, it is a channel you really need to think through and get right first time. Leanne, is there anything we've missed that people should know about, about affiliates in 2025? No, I mean, just really, like before you step into it, do your due diligence like you would with any other spend, like whether you're doing paid or, you know, search or whatever. Do your due diligence and understand is this the right time for you?

Because affiliates is not for Christmas. Like it's not just for Christmas. Okay? It's, it's a long term investment. It's a slow burn that fuels the fire that's already happening in other channels, which is what we said at the beginning. So get clarity on why you're doing it and what you want affiliates to do for you. Is it branding? Is it, you know, market penetration?

Is it plugging the gaps when my paid media can't get anymore, or looking at new channels that I don't actually know how to spend in and I get those affiliates to do it for me? Like, really think about what are the objectives that you want to be doing. Awesome. Thank you, Leanne. It's been brilliant picking your brains about affiliates in 2025, listeners.

Remember to stay tuned right to the end so you don't miss out on Leanne's insider tips on partnership markets marketing, as well as my suggestions for more free resources to help you improve things even further in your businesses.

Okay, Leanne, so far we've gone deep into affiliates in 2025. Now you get to wow us with your insider knowledge about the whole of partnership marketing. So, for the following questions, your answer can be anything to do with partnership marketing, which of course includes everything we've already been talking about. Leanne, are you ready for these? I am. Okay, let's start with newbie advice.

If we've inspired someone to take their first step, what do they need to know to give themselves the best chance of success? Your why, I think really just establish your why for taking this medium on and actually investing in partnerships. Is it the right time? Is it the right place? You know, is it, is it the right thing for your business to do? If it is, get an expert to help you. Like, don't waste time trying to figure it out, because this isn't a channel that you can learn overnight.

Perfect. Once, of course, you've started, you've got to keep optimizing. So what's your favorite way to improve performance? Favorite way to improve performance is to. And I know this is going to sound really common, but a B test, it's the best way to have a look at what's happening, because it might not be the traffic that isn't converting. It might be you like your content and your banners and the copy that you're pushing out to the customers. It might not be resonating with the customers.

So a B test everything and optimize from there. Excellent. If someone listening wants to learn more, is there a cheap or free resource you'd recommend? We've encouraged them all to go and learn. Where do they go? This is a very difficult question. I would either hire a consultant to come in and kind of help you along the way, because you can't learn affiliate marketing in a simple course.

And what you do learn, whilst you can practically understand how it works in real life, it's never going to work that way. So I actually run a free webinar once a month where people can come in and ask questions. And I do have a training course that gives you the basics, the grounding of, of how you can get started in Affiliate marketing and how to do affiliate management effectively. It does evolve so quickly, doesn't it?

It's like you think you're doing this strategy, you find out you're doing that one, you find a good affiliate in this. There's so many nuances and pieces. So I love those two recommendations. Thank you. Finally, crystal ball time.

What's coming up in the next six to 12 months? We should be getting ready for, I. Think, working with more user generated content creators people. There's a definite indication that custom want real authentic recommendations. So fake reviews, reviews that are being paid for, people are just seeing through that and we need to make sure that we're working with content creators that really get our products and services and can actually tell that story authentically to our audience.

Yeah, such a big trend across the whole of marketing at the moment. And I guess affiliates is quite a good way of solving it, isn't it? In many ways, yeah. Okay, Leanne, we are very nearly at the end of the show, so could you please let the listeners know where they can get in touch with you and your business if they want to learn more? So just head on over to a media.com from there you can get to our agency page and our training page as well.

And I'm all over LinkedIn, so if you ever want to contact me, you can just look at my name and drop me a message and I try and respond to everybody that that emails me. Yeah, Leanne is all over LinkedIn. She's very easy to find. Leanne, thank you so much for coming on the show and giving us such an interesting take on the future of affiliate marketing that will hopefully get a few more of our listeners dipping their toe in the right way to take advantage of affiliate.

So thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. It was nice to be on the other end of the mic. Okay, so before you start with affiliate marketing or before you finalize your affiliate marketing plans for this year, work out why you're doing it. Which bit of affiliates is it or so not which bit of affiliate? How are you looking to leverage the alternative payment method that is affiliate, that is commission on sales as payment?

How are you looking to leverage that to enhance the marketing you're doing via other channels or to take advantage of a channel you're not yet using? Could be anything from VIPs and ambassador programs to micro influencers to TikTok to kind of what we call, I guess traditional media affiliates. So those doing blogs and those kind of content or even tapping into the newspapers. So many different ways of doing it.

You really do need to know what you're trying to do at the beginning and then make sure you're getting that training and you've got that, that ongoing advice, wherever it may be coming from, from someone who understands the platforms and the methods to make sure you're making the most of them. And don't forget, it's all about partnerships. It's all about building relationships with those people who are promoting your business for you.

Now you can get links to all those things we discussed, the full transcript of the episode, important notes and more@keepoptimizing.com you can also use our special direct episode short links. Just put keepopt.com forward, slash the number of this episode into the URL bar and you will go straight to the right page of the website when you get there. You can also add yourself to our email list so you don't miss out on any of the other things I share to help you improve your business.

Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of the Keep Optimizing podcast. If you've enjoyed it and want to continue learning about partnerships, then pick up our thread by scrolling back up your feed to episodes 185 to 189 from last year where we did a whole mini series specifically about affiliate marketing. So a whole group of episodes there to really help you get your affiliate marketing singing. You can also find our full thread of partnership marketing content.

So beyond affiliate, including influencer marketing as well and some other interesting arenas by using the short link keepopt.com partnerships and yeah, let's give you one more short link. If you want to dive fully into affiliates, then go to keepopt.com forward/affiliate. And please tell your fellow marketers about this show because I want to help as many of you as possible to improve the performance of your E commerce marketing, including at the moment, your partnership marketing.

Have a great week and make sure you listen to the next episode so I can help you to keep optimizing your marketing access everything. Keep optimizing@keepoptimizing.com that's with an S not a Z.